Let vs therefore proceede in examining this discourse A. D. §. 1. Hitherto I haue shewed that the rule of faith which all men ought to seeke that by it they may learne true faith is the doctrine of the Church of Christ and that this Church doth continue and is alwayes visible that is to say such as may be found out and knowne Now the greatest question is sith there are diuers companies of them that beleeue in Christ euery one of which challenge to themselues the title of the true Church how euery man may come to know assuredly and in particular which companie is indeed the true visible Church of Christ whose doctrine we must in all points beleeue and follow To this question I answer that euery companie which hath the name of Christians or which challenge to themselues the name of the Church are not alwayes the true Church For of heretickes we may well say as S. Austin doth Non quia Ecclesiae Christi videntur habere nomen idcirco pertinent ad eius consecrationem They doe not therefore pertaine to the consecration of the Church of Christ because they seeme to carry the name of the Church of Christ. For as the same S. Austin saith in another place heretickes are onely whited ouer with the name of Christians when indeed Si haeretici sunt as Tertullian sayth Christiani esse non possunt If they be heretickes the cannot be true Christians The reason whereof the same Tertullian insinuateth to be because they follow not that faith which came from Christ to his Apostles and Disciples and which was deliuered by them from hand to hand to our forefathers and so to vs but they follow that faith which they chose to themselues of which election or choise the name of hereticke and heresie did arise A. W. Hitherto you haue laboured to proue the maior of your maine syllogisme propounded in your preface namely that the faith which the authoritie of the true Catholick Church commends vnto vs is to be held for the true faith What successe you haue had in this proofe let them say that haue compared your arguments and my answers together Now you are to proceed to the proofe of your maine assumption that they onely are the true Church which make profession of the Romane faith Your syllogisme is thus framed They onely are the true Church to whom the certaine marks by which the Church is to be knowne belong But they that professe the Romane faith are they to whom those markes belong Therefore they onely that professe the Romane faith are the true Church The proposition or maior of this Syllogisme is not exprest by you but necessarily implied in this thirteenth Chapter where you say that the way to discerne which is the true Church is first to set downe which be the certain marks whereby all men may easily know the Church The assumption or minor you endeuour to proue in the fiue Chapters following by a Syllogisme thus concluded They onely who are one holy Catholicke Apostolicke Church are they to whom the certaine markes of the true Church belong But they that professe the Romane religion are they who are one holy Catholicke Apostolicke Church Therefore they onely that professe the Romane faith are they to whom the certaine markes of the true Church belong Your proposition or maior is in the two next Chapters your assumption or minor in the sixteenth In handling the proposition first you labour to disproue the markes of a true church which we assigne and that in Chapt. 14. then you assay to propound and confirme other of your owne as we shall see hereafter if God will when we come to Chap. 15. Whereas you expound what you meane by a visible Church viz. such a one as may be found out and knowne you straighten the question and auow that which no man denieth For the question betwixt vs is not whether the Church may be found out or no but whether it be so visible and famous a congregation that it may at all times be knowne of all men If this be not that you should proue what will become of your grand reason that therefore there must alwayes be a knowne Church the doctrine whereof euery must rest vpon in all matters of faith because otherwise it cannot be vniuersally true that God will haue all men to be saued It is indeed a matter worth the enquiring which companies of them that professe Christian Religion are the true Churches of Christ For that all are not it is apparent by your Antichristian Synagogue and that all true Christians are bound as much as lieth in them to become members of some true church of Christ it is manifest because else they cannot ordinarily performe the duties of his true outward worship which are no where done but in his true churches If the choise of any doctrine not receiued from Christ be sufficient to make men heretickes and churches hereticall what may the world thinke of your synagogue which is not ashamed openly to professe that she holdeth many points of doctrine which haue not proofe out of the written word of God For whereas to shift off the matter you come in with deliuerie of I know not what from hand to hand by the Apostles and your forefathers who sees not that this conceit of yours both condemneth the Scriptures of insufficiencie and maketh the reports of men the rule of the true faith and openeth a wide gate to let in all deuices of mans corruption What auailes it to know that all doctrine is heresie which comes not from our Sauiour Christ if we must beleeue that all came from him which your Pope and his Councell tell vs they haue receiued by tradition why should we not rather hearken to your Occham who truly affirmed that heresy is an opinion chosen by a man contrary to the holy Scripture Surely there is great cause to suspect them of heresie who refuse to make triall of their doctrine by Scripture whatsoeuer they talke of tradition from the Apostles by their forefathers A. D. §. 2. The way therefore to discerne which is the true Church is irst to set downe which be the certaine markes by which all men may easily know the Church and then to examine to whom these markes doe agree The which that I may the better performe in the Chapter following here I thinke good first briefly to note what belongeth to the nature of a good and sufficient marke Note therefore that two things are required in euery sufficient marke The first is that it be not common to many but proper and onely agreeing to the thing whereof it is a marke As for example it is no good marke whereby to know any particular man to say he hath two hands or two eares because this is common to many and therefore no sufficient note or marke whereby one may be distinguished or knowne from all other But a marke whereby we may discerne
Leo faith that is true is a strong bulwarke to which faith nothing may be added by any man from which nothing may be taken because vnlesse it be one it is not faith sith the Apostle saith one Lord one faith one baptisme Is it not euident that he speakes of the points of faith that are to be beleeued For to them may a man adde I speake of power not of lawfulnesse from them may he take wheras the qualitie of faith seated in the soule is free from all such danger The learned father had found by experience that hereticks from time to time tooke vpon them to diminish and augment the faith of the Church that is the articles of religion and therefore denieth them to haue any faith that hold not firmly and onely the truth of doctrine according to the faith of the Church agreeable to Scripture A. D. §. 3. Omni studio saith S. Hierome Laborandum est primùm ocurrere in fidei vnitatem We must labour with all diligence first to meete in the vnitie of faith A. W. Ieroms testimonie wherein either the printer or you reade vnitatem for vnitate which is also the word in the text is to the same purpose that Leos was There are saith Ierome many winds of doctrine and by their blast when the waues are raised men are caried hither and thither in an vncertaine course and with diuers errors then follow the words you alledge Therefore we must labour with all diligence first to meete in the vnitie of faith then in the same vnitie to haue the knowledge of the sonne of God Which last point is added because of Sabellius who denied the distinction of the persons and against whom Ierome speaketh professedly in that chapter as also against Arius Macedonius and Eunomius about the holy Ghost and our Sauiour Christ A. D. §. 4. Hanc fidem saith Irenaeus ecclesia in vniuersum mundum disseminata diligenter custodit quasi vnam domum inhabitans similiter credit ijs quasi vnam animam habens vnum cor consonanter haec praedicat docet cradit quasi vnum possidens os Nam quamuis in mundo dissimiles sint loquelae tamen virtus traditionis vna eadem est This faith the Church spread ouer the whole world doth diligently keepe as dwelling in one house and doth belieue in one like manner those things to wit which are proposed for points of faith as hauing one soule and one heart and doth preach and teach and deliuer by tradition those things after one vniforme manner as possessing one mouth For although there be diuers and different languages in the world yet the vertue of tradition is One and the same Thus saith this Father By whose words we may vnderstand not onely that there is but one faith but also how it is said to be one which might seeme not to be one considering there are so many points or articles which we beleeue by our faith and so many seuerall men who haue in them this faith yet One saith this Father it is because the whole Church doth beleeue those points in one like manner That is to say because the beliefe of one man is in all points like and nothing different from the beliefe of another or because euery faithfull man beleeueth euery point or article for one and the like cause or for mall reason to wit because God hath reuealed it and deliuered it to vs by his Catholicke Church to be beleeued For which reason euery one should beleeue whatsoeuer he beleeueth as a point of Christian faith A. W. Irenaeus as the two former speaketh of the articles of religion many wherof he had recited in the next chapter before whereupon he infers the words you set downe The Church saith he hauing receiued this doctrine or preaching of this faith though it be spread ouer the whole world keepes it diligently c. And this your selfe acknowledge in these words To wit which are proposed for points of faith whereby you expound that which Irenaeus said The Church beleeues those things which is all one with his former words in sense This faith the Church holds So doth Feuardentius one of your learnedst Fryers vnderstand Irenaeus telling vs that he sets the consent of all Churches as a brasen wall that cannot be ouerthrowne against hereticks Of the same things saith Feuardentius they thinke beleeue write and teach the same By this place it is manifest that you take faith as it is a qualitie because you distinguish the points we beleeue from our faith by which we beleeue and so speaking of faith in that sense neuer a one of your proofes is either plaine or certaine But let vs see how you interprete Irenaeus He saith The whole Church doth beleeue alike meaning that all beleeue the same things not that the habit by which they beleeue is of like force like strength in euery particular Church or man which neither belongs to his purpose nor is true The intention or inward strength euen of the Catholick faith may be greater in one mā saith Domingo à Soto then in another and according to that increase our faith Therefore your former reason which you giue why faith is said to be one namely because the beleefe of one man is in all points like the beleefe of another must be vnderstood of likenesse in regard of the articles they beleeue not of any equalitie in the habit or qualitie it selfe and in that sense onely doth Irenaeus say that faith is one Which saith he no man by his eloquence maketh greater no man by his weaknes in speaking of it lesse We see saith Feuardentius that Irenaeus vehemently vrgeth the vnitie of doctrine and consent of faith which we affirmed to be one of the notes of the true Church Therefore whereas you said of Irenaeus that he affirmes faith to be one because the whole Church doth beleeue those things points of faith in one like manner you mistake his meaning and auow that which is vntrue It is great pitie but that such as you are coming in the name and by the authority of the Church should haue absolute credit giuen to that you teach without doubting or examining it at all Your second reason why faith is said to be one neither agrees with Irenaeus meaning as appeares by that which hath bene alreadie said and in the latter part is false too for both it is a fansie of yours that God hath deliuered it to vs by the Catholicke Church since the Prophets Apostles and Ministers are not the Catholicke Church but members of it the last all of them seuerally and ioyntly subiect to many errors though not fundamentall And the reason of beleeuing is simply and onely the authoritie and will of God made knowne to vs by the ministerie of men the holy Ghost enlightening our vnderstanding and enclining our hearts to beleeue But
excused in your iudgement by ignorance concerning any positiue commaundement of God but out of doubt there are many points of truth reuealed by God onely as positiue not as such meanes to saluation that without the beleefe of them a man cannot be saued Adde hereunto that a Christian may be ignorant of many points held by the Church and that by negatiue ignorance because he could neuer come where he might heare that the Church beleeued such and such things It is therefore an vnreasonable thing to condemne all ignorance for heresie and a most vncharitable conceit to cast all into hell fire that beleeue not in euery point as the Church generally doth yea though they know what the Church mainteines be of a contrarie mind Your proofe which is a comparison of likenesse or equality betwixt infidelitie in denying all Christian religion and heresie in not beleeuing some points of it is a great deale too weake Similitudes argue indeed but rather by way of illustration then proofe And there is no equalitie betwixt denying all and doubting of some The former absolutely ouerthrowes true religion the latter onely misconceiues some points leauing the grounds of truth vntouched and beleeuing them as most certaine A. D. § 6. Fourthly I may confirme the same with the testimonie of the ancient Fathers First of S. Athanasius in his creed which is commonly knowne and approoued of all Quicunque saith he vult saluus esse ante omnia opus est vt teneat Catholicam fidem quam nisi quisque integram inuiolatamque seruauerit absque dubio in aeternum peribit Whosoeuer will be saued before all things it is needfull that he hold the Catholicke faith which vnlesse euerie one doe keepe entire and vnviolate without doubt he shall perish euerlastingly A. W. If the ancient writers should affirme a thing so vnreasonable there were good reason for a man to looke for some proofe of it out of the Scriptures But no doubt we shall finde your citations of their writings as much to the purpose as we haue done your former arguments The first you alleadge is Athanasius in his Creed to which I answer that Athanasius speaks not of all points reuealed by God but of those substantiall matters which are there set downe by him and namely of the Trinitie of persons and Godhead of our Sauiour Iesus Christ This appeares by the last verse of the same Creed where he thus concludeth This is the Catholicke faith which except a man beleeue faithfully he cannot be saued But Athanâ—siuâ— hath not comprehended all points of religion in that Creed for he leaueth out the buriall of our Sauiour Christ vnlesse you will say he put his going downe into hell for it neither doth he require in that place any other point as necessary to be beleeued to saluation but those onely that he there reciteth which must be kept entire and vnuiolate of euery man that will be saued A. D. §. 7. Qui sunt in sacris literis eruditi saith Saint Basil ne vnam quidem sillabam diuinorum dogmatum prodi sinunt sed pro istius defensione si opus est nullum non mortis genus libenter amplectuntur Those that are well instructed in holy Writ doe not suffer one sillable of diuine doctrine to be betraied or yeelded vp but for the defence thereof if need be doe willingly embrace any kinde of death A. W. That of Basil is lesse to the purpose For first he saith nothing of any doctrine propounded by the Church or of your vnwritten traditioÌ„s but only of the Scriptures And how makes this for the beleeuing whatsoeuer the Church wil deliuer without which in your iudgement faith cannot be one or entire Secondly he speakes not of all ignorant men whose faith vpon paine of damnation you will haue entire concerning euery point but of those onely that are learned in the holy Scriptures or at the most so farre as they are learned in them I astly what saith he of these but that which we alwaies require that a christian should not suffer any sillable of true doctrine to be betraied This makes against you who rest wholly vpon Popes and Councils and by that meanes oftentimes betray the truth of God manifested in the Scripture yea so farre are you from mainteining euery sillable of it with hazard of your liues that you doe what you can for shame to destroy it all You Papists depriue the people of them altogether at least for their priuate reading howsoeuer your Pope Pius 4. makes a shew of permitting it You haue thrust out the Authenticall copies of Hebrew and Greeke and in steed of them authorised a corrupt Latine translation which no man may refuse vpon any pretence though it haue 8000 places as Isidorus Clarius a great learned man of your owne affirmeth in which the sense of the holy Ghost is changed yea Cardinal Hosius blusheth not to write That it were better for the Church if there were no written Gospell extant I omit your blasphemies against the Scriptures whereof I haue spoken otherwhere A. D. §. 8. Nihil periculosius saith Nazianzen his haereticis esse potest qui cum integrè per omnia decurrant vno tamen verbo quasi veneni gutta veram illam ac simplicem fidem dominicam inficiunt Nothing can be more perilous then these heretickes who when they runne vprightly through all the rest yet with one word as with a drop of poyson doe infect that true and sincere faith of our Lord. A. W. What if Gregorie Nazianzen complaine that heretickes which held most points soundly according to truth as Arius Eutyches Macedonius Nestorius and diuers other did were very pernitious to the Church because they did more easily and secretly poyson the truth of doctrine by their heresies Will it follow hereupon that therefore a man cannot be saued vnlesse he beleeue euerie point of truth reuealed by God or that a man hath no faith because his beleefe agrees not in euery small matter with other Christians Remember I pray you we denie not that faith should be entire but that it cannot be auaileable to saluation if in any one point it misbeleeue Thus haue I examined the first part of this your Treatise of Faith which I know not how I should apply to your maine syllogisme implied in your preface when you shew the vse of it in any part thereof I will giue you answer accordingly A. D. CHAP. V. That there must be some means prouided by almighty God by which all sorts of men may learne this faith which is so necessary to saluatioÌ„ A. W. The title of this Chapter is so propounded that your meaning may easily be mistaken There must be say you some meanes prouided May not a man gather by these words that as yet there are no such meanes prouided where as you would haue vs beleeue that God hath already made prouision of fit meanes to that
contempt Secondly in Saint Mathew the same our Sauiour expresly saith Si Ecclesiam non audierit sit tibi sicut Ethnicus publicanus If he will not heare the Church let him be to thee like an Ethnicke and a Publican Finally in Saint Marke after he had giuen charge and commission to preach the Gospell to euerie creature he pronounceth this threat to those that will not beleeue saying Qui non crediderit condemnabitur He that will not beleeue shall be condemned A. W. This is the last point in your Assumption and thus it is to be concluded He that despiseth our Sauiour that is to be accounted as an heathen or Publican that shall be condemned is greatly threatned in Scripture But he that will not heare the Church and doe in all things according to the saying thereof despiseth our Sauiour c. Therefore he that will not heare the Church and doe in all things according to the saying thereof is greatly threatned in Scripture I denie your Minor and will answer to the seuerall proofes of it To the first whereof I shall need to say little because I spake sufficiently of the former part of that text at the third point The summe is that this threatning as the warrant is not vttered in respect of any Church or companie but of seuerall teachers and preachers and therefore if we may not conclude from hence that he which heareth not euery minister and doth in all things according to his saying is guiltie of these crimes no more is he that performeth not the like dutie to a cōpany of Pastors or bishops assembled together Secondly if it were spokē of the Church yet were not any man to be held faulty in such a measure but he onely that refuseth the ministerie of the Gospell and embraceth not the doctrine thereof as the onely way of saluation Therefore said our Sauiour in the same chapter and matter Into whatsoeuer Citie ye shall enter if they will not receiue you go your waies out into the streets of the same and say euen the verie dust which cleaueth on vs of your Citie we wipe off against you So did the Apostles against the Iewes of Antioch in Pisidia for their contempt of the Gospell They shooke off the dust of their feet against them Thus as I signified before your glosse vnderstandeth it He that despiseth you so that he will not beleeue in Christ Is it all one to despise a man and not to assent to the truth of whatsoeuer he speaketh This may proceed and doth ordinarily from an error of iudgement that commeth alwaies from a resolute determination of the will Thirdly as hearing so despising must be vnderstood not simply but when the parties to be heard or despised preach the truth of Iesus Christ according to his word For there is no commaundement as I shewed in handling of the last point that bindeth vs any farther to obedience or makes vs liable to punishment then the things deliuered are agreeable to the word of God vnlesse we do against our conscience Therefore your speech of your Catholicke Church is but idle there being no speech nor thought of it in this place but onely a charge to heare the Apostles simply because they could not erre other teachers iointly or seuerally though the latter be properly intended so farre forth as they speake agreeably to the Scriptures and so do not erre First I say this place is not to purpose because it speaketh of a man alreadie in the Church a beleeuer by profession whereas your question is of him that is no Christian but to be made a beleeuer by giuing credit to that which shall be preached to him That it is to be vnderstood of beleeuers onely the text it selfe speaketh If thy brother If anie man that is called a brother Thy brother that is a Christian saith Theophylact For our Lord hath appointed no such course to be taken saith Chrysostome with them that are out of the Church But this is meant of him that vnder the name of a beleeuer saith Ierome plaieth the Infidell A brother saith Iansenius is here vnderstood not to be euerie neighbour or euerie man but he that is a Christian of the same religion with vs. His reasons are first because our Sauiour saith Tell the Church but the Church hath nothing to doe in such cases with those that are not members of it What haue I to do saith Paul to iudge them that are without Secondly because an Heathen and Publican are alreadie out of the Church and so the censure here appointed cannot concerne them Secondly by not hearing the Church our Sauiour doth not meane not beleeuing all points of doctrine the Church deliuereth of which there was no occasion for him to speake at that time but refusing to be ordered by the Church and despising the admonition thereof So is hearing and not hearing there to be vnderstood If he heare thee what is that If he beleeue the doctrine thou teachest No such matter But if he take thy admonition in good part and accordingly reforme himselfe So afterwards If he refuse to heare the witnesses This refusall hath a kinde of contempt ioyned with it If he contemne the Church saith Cyprian Despising the commaundement of his prelate saith Lyra. Thirdly by Church no man in this place can reasonably vnderstand a generall Councell either without or with the Pope For questionlesse our Sauiour would neuer speak so obscurely to the Iewes for whom it was impossible to vnderstand his meaning and whom that matter did not concerne But he speaketh either of the gouernours of seuerall Churches or of the congregatiōs gouernors which are properly the Church in those places where they liue In the former sense do Chrysostome and Theophylact take it and your Rhemists by Chrysostomes authority Tell the Prelates and gouernours Tell them saith Bellarmine that are publicke persons in the Church And in an other place Euerie mans Prelate or a companie of Prelates is meant The latter opinion your Bishop Iansenius maintaines He saith tell the Church not tell the Bishops and gouernours of the Church though they especially are to be told the Church is not to be told but in their presence as a company of beleeuers is not to be called a Church if the gouernours thereof be not present He saith tell the Church that he may reuerence the agreement of the multitude That the reproofe by many may correct him To this purpose Ierome saith It must be told to many And therefore if any man thinke that by telling the Church it is meant we should tell the Pope besides the absurdity of the interpretation the Pope being but one and the Church by your owne definition a Company both our Sauiour Christs course is peruerted Tell him alone thē with one or two witnesses lastly tel one againe Iansenins Ierom
absolution if they doe the pennaunce appoynted by their ghostly Father they are as free from all their sinnes as when they were newly baptised Now concerning our doctrine though we teach men that assurance is to be had yet we withall instruct them that it is neuer in this life absolutely without doubting at all times and that no man can be assured that his sinnes are forgiuen but he that with feare and trembling maketh conscience of falling into sinne which are especiall meanes prouided by God to keepe men from sinning and without which sinne will so ouertake vs and the sense of Gods wrath so follow vexe vs that a man were better frie a yeare in your Purgatory knowing that he shall one day get out of it then lie one moneth vnder the heauie hand of God pressing him with the remembrance of his sinne and for the time hiding his gracious countenance from him If you neuer fealt this offer not to iudge of the extremitie thereof for you will neuer come to giue any reasonable gesse of the terriblenesse of it To prescribe lawes of fasting and praier as you do that A man refraine vpon such and such daies from flesh or patter ouer a number of Paternosters Aues and Creeds is so farre from teaching men to auoid sinne that it thrusts them necessarily into it For both the opinion and doing of it as a seruice of God is a grieuous sinne as if the Lord hated flesh more then fish or cared for such vaine lip-labour and also the verie conceit that men haue of doing such extraordinarie seruice maketh them presume that God will beare with them though they chance to sinne against him The like I say of confession but of these two I spake before in defence of our doctrine With what fitnesse your remedies are applied or rather penance is inioyned the veriest child may see when for the most part they are such as I named ere while abstaining from flesh mumbling vp a certaine number of praiers going on pilgrimage to some shrine or such like As for true comfort in affliction of conscience or good direction in time of temptation or wise instruction for a mans spirituall behauiour few of your ordinarie Priestes Sir Iohns Lacke-Latine haue any knowledge or care of them This last point concerneth you no more then vs. For who knoweth not that we continually teach that God hath called Christians to holinesse whereof they make profession and wherein if they do not daily exercise themselues they can haue no sufficient assurance nor reasonable perswasion that they are iustified by the bloud of Christ Because as many as haue any part of redemption by him haue receiued his spirit and If the spirit of him that raised vp Iesus from the dead dwell in vs our mortall bodies shall be quickened by the spirit dwelling in vs. Onely it may seeme that your disgrace and danger should be the more if you liue not holily because you brag that you are able perfectly to keepe the Law and your Plea for heauen is the desert of your good works together with the inward grace of faith hope and charitie Because there is nothing in this glorious conclusion but a heaping vp of those false assertions which I haue alreadie confuted I will neuer make the Reader more worke then needs by repeating of that which hath bene formerly deliuered A. D. §. 6. § III. That the Romane Church onely is Catholicke Thirdly I finde that the Protestants companie is not Catholicke that is to say vniuersall neither in time nor in place for it came vp of late and is but in few places of Christendome neither in points of doctrine for their doctrine consisteth chiefely of negatiues that is to say in denying diuers points which haue bene generally held in former ages as appeareth by the Chronicles of the Magdeburgenses their owne Doctors who confesse that the ancient Fathers held this and that which they now denie And there is no learned Protestant vnlesse he be too too impudent but he will confesse that there cannot be assigned a visible companie of men professing the same faith which they do euer since Christ his time continuing without interruption till now And therefore will he nill he he must confesse that the Protestants Church is not vniuersall and therefore not Catholicke as out of Scripture I shewed Christs true Church must be But the Romane Church is Catholicke For first it hath bene continually without ceasing since Christ and his Apostles time still visibly though sometimes in persecution professing the same faith which is receiued from the Apostles without change till this day It is therefore Catholicke or vniuersall in time It hath also had and hath at this day some in euerie countrey where there are any Christians which is almost if not absolutely euerie where that communicateth and agreeth with it in profession of faith Therefore it is also Catholicke or vniuersall in place It teacheth also an vniuersall and most ample vniforme doctrine of God of Angels of all other creatures and specially of man of mans first framing of his finall end of things pertaining to his nature of his fall by sinne of his reparation by grace of lawes prescribed vnto him of vertues which he ought to embrace of vices which he ought to eschew of Christ our Redeemer his Incarnation life death resurrection ascension and comming againe to iudgement of Sacraments and all other things that any way pertaine to Christian religion Neither doth it at this day denie any one point of doctrine of faith which in former times was vniuersally receiued for a veritie of the Catholicke Church The which if any man will take vpon him to gainesay let him shew and prooue if he can what point of doctrine the Romane Church doth denie or holde contrarie to that which by the Church was vniuersally held before as we can shew diuers points that the Protestants so hold or denie Let him I say shew and prooue by setting downe the point of doctrine the author the time the place and what companie did oppose themselues against it and who they were that did continue as the true Church must still continue in the profession of the former faith lineally without interruption till these our daies as we can shew and prooue against them Let him also shew what countrey there is or hath bene where Christian faith either was first planted or afterwards continued where some at least haue not holden the Romane faith as we can shew euen at this day diuers places where their religion is scarce heard of especially in the Indian Iaponian and China countries which were not long since first conuerted to the Christian faith onely by those who were members of the Romane Church and chiefly by Iesuites sent thither by the authoritie of the Pope And to go no further then our deare countrie England we shall finde in the Chronicles that it was conuerted by Augustine a Monke sent
no man euer dreamed of viz. that we commonly build our faith vpon our English translation So that the Scripture may well be the rule of faith for ought that you haue said against it concerning the first propertie of certaine truth which it were blasphemie to denie of the scripture For the second that the rule must be easie to vnderstand I haue shewed that there is no necessitie of that condition and that the scripture is easie in matters necessary to saluation In the last point of the scriptures defect touching many things that must needs be beleeued you do both wrong God in making his word writtē so vnperfect and by a foolish craft insteed of proouing that the scripture containeth not all matters of faith needfull to saluation vndertake to shew that which no man denieth that all points of beleefe are not expresly set down and determined by scripture And lest we should forget your shuffling in this point you offer new proofe of a needlesse matter from the authoritie of Austin Basil and Epiphanius whose testimonies I alledged before to prooue the sufficiencie of the scripture in all matters necessarie to saluation The places by you alledged are not of such matters neither speake of things not expresly contained but onely shew that for matters of fact ceremonie the Apostles haue not determined al particulars The Apostles saith Austin haue commaunded nothing touching not rebaptising them which haue bene baptised by hereticks but the custome which was pleaded against Cyprian is to be beleeued to haue had beginning from their tradition as there are many things which the Church euery where holdeth that we wel beleeue therefore to haue beene enioyned by the Apostles though they are not found written What is this to prooue that there are matters necessarie to be beleeued to saluation which are not exprest in the scriptures Basil was not the the author of that Treatise at the least of the latter part of it from about the 17. chapter and so forward That appeareth first by obseruing the difference of style being neither like Basils writing nor in one place like an other as Erasmus hath truly obserued who translated it Secondly by the fond discourse he maketh propounding one thing handling an other and concluding a third which not onely Basil would neuer haue done but no man of any discretion Last of all he bewraieth himselfe to be a counterfeit by speaking of Meletius as one dead long before who liued in his time ouerliued him as it is manifest by the Ecclesiasticall historie But admit the booke were Basils what is there in it to proue that all points of doctrine which appertaine to true Christian faith are not expresly set downe in Scripture This Author saith that we must beleeue oraditions VVhat In matters of doctrine There is no such word in him He speaketh of outward carriage in ceremonies and phrases of speech The question in that part of his Treatise is of the preposition with that is to speake that euery man may vnderstand whether it be lawfull to say in the Church seruice and otherwise Glorie be to the Father and to the Sonne with the holy Ghost or whether we must needs say and to the holy Ghost not with For this speech that author pleades tradition Do we denie any such matter Or do we not acknowledge the libertie and authoritie of the Churches in such matters Who sees not that our custome now is to say Glory be to the Father to the Sonne and to the holy Ghost Not that thereby we condemne the other kind of speech but because in matters left to our libertie we take that which seemeth fittest Epiphanius speaking of praier for the dead which hath no warrant of Scripture is glad to helpe himselfe with the authoritie of tradition telling vs that some things must be held by tradition and not all taken out of the scriptures But Epiphanius doth not say that this is a doctrine or action necessarie to saluation A. D. §. 6. Some obiect against this conclusion that place of S. Paul Omnis Scriptura diuinitùs inspirata vtilis est ad docendum c. vt perfectus sit homo c. But this place prooueth nothing against that which I haue said For it saith not that scripture alone is sufficient to instruct a man to perfection but that it is profitable for this purpose as it is indeed and the rather because it commendeth vnto vs the authoritie of the Church which as I shall afterwards proue is sufficient Now it is certaine that to be profitable and to be of it selfe alone sufficient be farre different things Stones and Timber be profitable to the building of an house yet they alone without a worke-man to square them and set them in order be not sufficient for this purpose A. W. Of this place I haue spoken sufficiently otherwhere and shewed that the Scriptures are able to make vs wise to saluation and therefore sufficient to that purpose Now the Apostle hauing giuen that commendation to the scripture vers 15. proceedeth in the next to exemplifie that in particular which he had before said in generall It is able to make thee wise to saluation it is able to fit thee to teaching reproouing correcting instructing Can any reasonable man thinke that the Apostle deliuering by way of amplification his former commendation of the scripture that he might the rather stirre vp Timothie to the studie of it would say lesse then he had done before But it is a great deale lesse to say no more but the scripture is profitable to such purposes then to commend it as able to make a man wise to saluation Therefore though the word indeed doe not expresly signifie sufficiencie yet it cannot be doubted but the profit mentioned implieth such a sufficiencie especially since he addeth perfection which must arise from this word of God And so as I haue shewed elsewhere do Chrysostome and Theophylact vnderstand it who make the Apostle speake to Timothie to this effect that he being now to be offred vp leaueth the scriptures in his steed of which he may in all things take aduise and counsell as if the Apostle himselfe were present with him But you forsooth would make vs beleeue that the scripture is indeed profitable to this end but not sufficient Is not the knowledge of arts tongues philosophy and history of verie good vse also to this purpose Slender then too slender is the commendation our Apostle giueth the scriptures if it be of no greater excellēcy then these humane furtherances but only in a certain degree of profit To helpe the matter you propound one particular for which the scripture is profitable namely to commend vnto vs the authority of the Church But neither doth it cōmend to vs any such authority as you imagin if that be the rule of the scripture one sentēce had bin as good better then
right to it and then frame such arguments otherwise any man of neuer so little iudgment may find more cause to pity or disdaine your proofe or presumption then to stagger at the force of your reason All things in the Scripture were indeed writtē for our learning and therfore belong to vs so far as the general doctrine reacheth the particular circumstances are alike Wherefore I grant your proposition not because of any succession which could not be in those Scribes and Pharises being of diuers tribes and as your Genebrard saith hauing thrust themselues into the chaire of Moses being empty but because they expoūded the law of Moses among the Iewes as the Ministers of Christ do the Gospell at this day to the Christians Ere I answer to your Assumption I must speake a word of your translation haue sitten The Greeke indeed is so but as Vatablus noteth the praeter tense is put for the present tense Therefore Pagnine doubteth not so to translate it sedent sit Which must needs be our Sauiours meaning For how were it agreeable to reason that he should charge vs to heare the Scribes and the Pharises because they did sometimes sit vpon Moses chaire if now they sit beside it It is our Sauiours purpose to signifie that the expositions of the former Pharisies and of those that taught in his time were not to be reiected or rather it is al one as if he had said do sit But let vs reade the place which way we list it is all one to your minor which I denie To the proofe of it out of the text I answer First the sitting vpon Moses chaire signifieth not succession but teaching the law of Moses For Moses calling was altogether extraordinarie from God both for gouerning and teaching In the former Iosua and the Iudges succeeded him till the people were wearie of Gods ruling of them The other part of his office was to be discharged ordinarily by the Priests and Leuits That ye may teach the children of Israel all the statutes which the Lord hath commaunded them by the hand of Moses The Priests lips should preserue knowledge and they should seeke the Law at his mouth Ieshua and Bani c. and the Leuites caused the people to vnderstand the law And they read in the booke of the Law of God distinctly and gaue the sense and caused them to vnderstand the reading It was one thing to succeed Aaron another to sit on Moses chaire The chaire of Moses saith Cyril signifieth power of doctrine They sit in Moses chaire saith Origen which interprete Moses sayings well and according to reason And a little after The Scribes and Pharises sit naughtily vpon Moses chaire they sat wel that well vnderstood the law What is the meaning of that saith Ambrose The Scribes sat but because letters are written whereupon the Scribes in Greeke are called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 following the interpretation of the letter not the sense of the spirit And afterward Therefore they teaching those things that Moses wrote c. So doth Theophylact expound it They that sit in Moses chaire that is that teach the things that are in the law And immediately before They that exhort to euill life do not then teach out of Moses chaire nor out of the Law Therefore to sit vpon Moses chaire is nothing else but to haue authoritie to expound Moses Law as he himselfe did expound it So the Ministers of the Gospell may be said to sit vpon the Apostles chaire because they haue authority to interpret the Gospel which the Apostles themselues preached Secondly I denie that our Sauiour commanded the Iewes or doth now charge vs to beleeue whatsoeuer they that haue authority to teach vs deliuer or to do whatsoeuer they enioyne This is apparent because himselfe refuteth condemneth their interpretations and doctrines many times as Mat. 5. In many points of which that one is most cleare Ye haue heard that it hath bene said thou shalt loue thy neighbour hate thine enemie but I say vnto you loue your enemies c. In vaine do they worship me teaching for doctrines mens traditions And in the same place he calleth them blinde leaders of the blind and addeth further that if the blinde lead the blinde both fall into the ditch Now can any man be so impious I might say blasphemous as to say that our Sauiour commaunded the Iewes to take such a course as should certainely bring them to destruction Nay rather he warneth them to take heed of their doctrine Take heed and beware he doubleth his admonition to make them more carefull of the leauen of the Pharises And what was this leauen The doctrine of the Pharises saith the Euangelist But what need we go out of this chapter for the point in question Doth he not afterwards call them blinde guides vers 16. 24. fooles blind vers 17. 19 Doth he not in the same places condemne and confute their absurd and lewde doctrine of swearing A man would wonder that euer any man professing himselfe a scholler or teacher should bring such miserable proofes in matters of so great weight But alasse we must beare with you you bring such as you haue if you knew any better we should be sure to haue them But these serue to deceiue your deuoted followers who wilfully shut their eies against the truth The iudgements of God are past searching out and his mercie in opening our eies to see your grossnesse greater then we are able to conceiue Well yet perhaps you haue some colour from antiquitie to countenance your exposition withall You quote Austin what None but Austin in a matter of so great doubt But let vs see why you quote him If to prooue that the Pharisies were to be heard and obeyed in all things there is no such word in his sentence alledged by you For he saith no more then we grant that Our Sauiour prouided before hand that we should not refuse good doctrine because it was deliuered by wicked men Indeed that was the verie purpose of our Sauiour and to that doth Austin apply it otherwhere according to the true sense of it What saith he else but heare the voice of the sheepheard though by hirelings such as Austin in that place saith the Pharifies and Scribes were and such as our Sauiour proueth them to be by their hypocrisie ambition couetousnesse The Apostle sheweth saith Austin in an other place that men without charitie may teach somewhat that is wholsome of such our Lord speaketh They sit vpon Moses chaire c. Whereupon also the Apostle speaking of enuious and malitious men yet such as preached saluation by Christ saith Whether by occasion or in truth Christ be preached Ireioice And in a third place He that speaketh wisely and eloquently but liueth wickedly teacheth many that are desirous
thy name prophecied and by thy name cast out diuels and by thy name done many great workes And then will I professe to them I neuer knew you depart from me ye that worke iniquitie But it is strange that you should make true inward sanctitie the marke of the true Church and so confidently affirme that no doubt in the Church there are alwaies some holy when as you maintaine that it is enough to make a man a true member of the true Church that he professe outwardly though he haue no one vertue within him at all If all the members of the Church may be void of holinesse how is holinesse a good marke of the Church Certainly it is at the most but accidentall and such as the Church may haue or lacke without being or ceasing to be a Church thereby He is well holpe vp no doubt that must learne how to know the true Church of such teachers You haue prooued after your fashion that the Church is holy now you will prooue that no companie but the Church is holy No sect of heretickes is truly holy All companies of Christians besides that of the true Church are sects of hereticks Therefore no companie of Christians besides that of the true Church is truly holy If by hereticks you vnderstand onely those that erre in some fundamentall points of religion I grant your Maior and Minor As for the conclusion I am resolued of the truth thereof without any proofe from you But if you acount all hereticks who in the error of their iudgement dissent from other Churches of Christ in matters not fundamentall though true I denie your said Maior and affirme that diuers Churches may differ in opinion one from another and continue in that difference maintaine it confidently so they do it not against their knowledge and conscience and yet all of them be true Churches of Christ and truly holy For as long as the opinions a man holds do not cut him off from being a true member of the mysticall bodie of Iesus Christ they make him not cease to be a true Christian truly iustified and sanctified But he that beleeueth truly in Iesus Christ and holds no fundamentall error continues by faith a member of our Sauiours mysticall bodie For as the iust liues by faith so wheresoeuer there is true faith there is life also but there is no life out of the bodie of Christ because the spirit of Christ is not to be had but in his bodie And therefore he that by faith remaineth a member of Christs bodie is a true Christian truly iustified and sanctified though not perfectly holy Here we haue the proofe of your Maior such as it is If the doctrine it selfe of euerie heresie be opposite to true Christian faith and humilitie the rootes of true sanctitie then no sect of heresies is truly holy But the doctrine it selfe of euerie heresie is opposite to true Christian faith and humilitie the roots of true sanctitie Therefore no sect of hereticks is truly holy If by true Christian faith you meane any particular truth as a Christian ought to beleeue euerie truth of God though not so as that ignorance or misbeleeuing of euerie point can make him cease to be a true Christian I denie the consequence of your Maior I denie your Minor Not euerie heresie but that which is against the foundation onely is opposite to true Christian faith humility vnderstanding by Christian faith such a faith as is necessarily required that a man may be a true Christian by which onely he liues not by beleeuing euerie truth though that be required of him as a dutie of sanctification And so your proofe also is answered A man may haue that faith by which a Christian must liue though he be ignorant or misinstructed in diuers points of doctrine I haue seuered this part concerning humilitie from the former because it seemeth you tooke it to be of more importance and therefore labour more in the proofe of it He that doth not humble himselfe to euerie humane creature for Gods sake but proudly opposeth himselfe against the vniuersall Church cannot be holy But no hereticke doth so humble himselfe and euerie hereticke so oppose Therefore no hereticke can be holy I shewed before that there is no such vniuersall Church as you often name but neuer prooue and therefore this argument grounded vpon opposing against that which is not in regard of such a commaundement as God neuer gaue is idle and vaine More particularly I answer concerning your Maior that although pride be alwaies a sinne yet it may sometimes be found in in a man truly sanctified that in opposition against men in a matter of doctrine But your proposition in regard of the former part of it as you vnderstand it is vtterly false For it is no way against holinesse for a man not to beleeue euery doctrine that men will propound If I or an Angell from Heauen preach any otherwise to you then we haue preached let him be accursed Trie the spirits whether they be of God or no. As for that place of the Apostle which you alledge your owne interpreters expound it not of the Church but of the ciuill Magistrate He cals the office of a King a humane creature saith Caietan because a King is created by the voices or consent of men and he addeth euery that he might take away all distinction betwixt Heathen and Christian kings in respect of obedience to them The Rhemists are yet more against you So he calleth the temporall magistrate say they elected by the people or holding their soueraigntie by birth and carnall propagation ordained for the Worldly wealth power and prosperitie of the subiect to put a difference directly against your interpretation betwixt the humane superioritie and the spirituall Rulers and regiment guiding and gouerning the people to a higher end But what need we any other expositor since the Apostle in the next words directeth vs how to vnderstand it Whether it be vnto the King as vnto the superiour or vnto gouernours as vnto them that are sent of him for the punishment of euill doers and for the praise of them that do well But let vs take it as generally as you will if it be against humilitie not to be subiect to the Church it is also against it not to be subiect to the King Yet I hope no man is so mad as to say that he refuseth to be subiect to him that doth not absolutely obey him in all things How then can this place proue that it is against true Christian humilitie not to beleeue the Church whatsoeuer she propound to be beleeued None but hereticks do so humble themselues and many dissenting from their brethren in diuers opinions neither deserue to be counted hereticks though they cannot be reclaimed from their errors nor to be held for schismaticks as long as they breake not off communion
come This is S. Austins discourse by which he proueth that the true Church of Christ is not contained in a corner of the world but must be dilated and spread in a sort ouer the whole world On the contrary side the congregation of hereticks is not Catholicke neither in time nor place And first for time it is euident because true doctrine was first preached and beleeued as the good seed was first sowne in the field and afterward the cockle that is false doctrine was ouer sowed Saint Paul did for three yeares space teach the Ephesians the true doctrine of faith and had conuersed among them like a lambe seruiens Domino cum omni humilitate seruing our Lord with all humilitie but after his departure he said he knew that rauenous wolues would enter in among them not sparing the flocke and that euen out of their owne company there would arise viriloquentes peruersa vt abducant discipulos post se men speaking peruerse things that they may leade away disciples after themselues And as this happened at Ephesus so doubtlesse in all other places where there hath bin any alteration of Christian doctrine first the true faith was planted by some Apostle or Apostolicke man and afterward the contrary was brought in by some speaking peruerse things thereby leading away disciples after themselues So that it is certaine that no heresie is so auncient as the true faith neither is any one of them of so long continuance for the time to come as S. Paul signified when hauing described heretickes of the latter dayes he addeth sed vltra non proficient insipientia enim eorū manifesta erit omnibus but they shall prosper no further for their folly shall be manifest to all The same doth S. Austin aptly expresse expounding those words of the Psalme Ad nihilum deuenient tanquam aqua decurrens Non vos terreant fratres saith he quidam fluuij qui dicuntur torrentes hyemalibus aquis implentur nolite timere post paululum transit decurrit aqua ad tempus perstrepit mox cessabit diu stare non possunt Multae haereses iam emortuae sunt c. My brethren let not certaine floods called land-brookes terrifie you they are filled with winter waters feare them not after a while the water doth passe and runne downe for a time it maketh a noise but it will cease by and by those flouds cannot stand long Many heresies are now already dead c. Now if we will haue respect of place it is certaine that no heresie is by processe of time to spread it selfe absolutely ouer the whole world as I haue proued that the true Church shall do and the reason hereof may be assigned because as S. Austin saith diu stare non possunt they cannot continue so long as were needfull to get them so vniuersally spred ouer the whole world especially considering that as S. Paul saith when they haue continued a while Insipientia earum manifesta fit omnibus their foolishnesse is made manifest to all and so no maruel si vltra non proficiant if they prosper not nor make no further progresse Neither ordinarily in any one age is heresie so vniuersall in place as the true Catholick religiō but for the most part it is cōtained in one or two countries as it were in a corner of the world So that of hereticks we may wel say as S. Austin doth that they are those which say Ecce hic est Christus ecce illic Behold Christ is here behold he is there that is to say the true doctrine of Christ is onely truly preached in this countrey or that countrey of which kind of people our Sauiour giueth vs warning and biddeth vs saying nolite credere beleeue them not We may wel say also of these as the same S. Austin doth Quaecunque congregatio cuiuslibet haeresis in angulis sedet concubina est non matrona Whatsoeuer congregation of what heresie soeuer sitteth in corners that is to say is but in few prouinces and in the rest of the Christian world either is not at al or at the least is not manifestly knowne to be is a concubine not a matron to wit it is not the spouse of Christ nor the lawfull mother of the children of God Wherefore sith there is this difference betwixt heresie and true Christian religion that as the same Saint Austin saith Singulae haereses in multis gentibus vbi Ecclesia est non inueniuntur Ecclesia autem quae vbique est etiam vbi illae sunt inuenitur Heresies are not found in many nations where the church is but the Church which is euery where is found in those nations where heresies are This difference I say being betwixt heresie and the true religion we need not doubt but that to be Catholicke or vniuersally receiued in the Christian world especially at all times is a note of the truth And that therfore the companie which professeth the faith which at all times and in a sort in all places hath bin receiued of Christians is vndoubtedly the true Church of Christ A. W. What if the true Church be proued to be Catholicke will it follow therupon that therfore it is alwayes Catholick so that a man cannot know which is the true Church but by knowing which Church is Catholick For such must euery good mark be proper to and al times present with that wherof it is a mark But let vs see a little better what Catholicknesse this is which you deliuer for a marke of the Church If you meane by the name Catholicke as if that were the true Church which cals it selfe the Catholicke Church what is more easie then for any false church to take vnto it selfe that name Did not Theudas and Iudas professe themselues to be the Messiah Hath not our Sauiour forewarned vs that there should arise false Christs and false Prophets Yea the Donatists who shut vp the church in a corner of Africa were not ashamed to call themselues the Catholicke Church And as Austin saith All hereticks would be called Catholicks If you vrge the thing signified by the name first not one of your Papists among a thousand vnderstands what this word Catholicke meanes but onely that it is the name of euery one that holdeth of the Church of Rome Secondly if by Catholick Church you meane such a church as hath bin euer since the comming of our Sauiour Christ and shall be at all times and ouer all the world as you expound your selfe how can it be a good marke of the true Church when as it is an impossibilitie that euery man should be able to search and know which church hath alwayes bin which hath not which hath bin euery where which onely in some places and much more vnpossible is it if there be degrees of impossibilitie that euery either learned or vnlearned man shold certainly know which church shal alwayes continue till the end of
for you all that your faith might not faile As for your Glosse that our Sauiour prayed for him that his faith should not faile at least so far as to teach the Church a false faith what one word is there in the text to anow any such conceit Beside it is apparent that our Sauiour spake not of his Apostleship but of his faith as he was a Christian wherein he had failed finally if our Sauiour had not mightily vpheld him and in this faith was he fit to confirme his brethren as hauing had so extraordinary experience of Satans temptation But if this prayer were made for Peter that he might not teach false doctrine belike either he was more subiect to that danger then the rest of the Apostles or they were left by our Sauiour in a continuall danger of erring which opinion is a very neare neighbour to blasphemie But what a pitifull consequence is this Our Sauiour prayed that Peters faith might not faile therefore the Pope cannot erre All the hold you haue left is in the charge giuen to Peter to feede Christs sheepe that is to be painfull and faithfull in preaching of the Gospell And this interpretation is agreeable to reason that our Sauiour requiring a proofe of Peters loue should charge him to make it manifest by taking paines to feede his sheepe But your exposition is absurd whereby you would haue liuery and seisin of soueraigne authoritie in the Church giuen to him by these words If thou loue me saith our Sauiour according to your exposition take vpon thee the soueraigne gouernement of the Church This were a poore proofe of Peters loue which is there demaunded You will say the charge of feeding was common to all the Apostles but here the Lord speaketh particularly to Peter He doth indeed And do you not see the reason of it Peter because of his grieuous fall had need of such a charge both for his better autorizing and his greater care He speakes chiefly to Peter saith your frier Ferus and to him escecially commends his sheepe that he might vtterly abolish the remembrance of his deniall For because he had fallen more grieuously then the other and had more obstinately denied Christ he stood in need of peculiar charge lest by the remembrance of his deniall he might suspect that the common charge of the Apostleship belonged not to hm He remedies his denying thrice by his confessing thrice saith Theophylact the like hath Austin Peter blatted out his three denial saith Ierome by his three confessions So then all that you haue said of Peters not erring in matter of doctrine is nothing worth yet do we thankfully acknowledge that Peter could not erre in matter of faith but we say that this was no priuiledge peculiar to him but common also to the other Apostles by vertue of their Apostleship Wherein if no man succeed them as questionlesse there are now no Apostles no man can claime a priuiledge of not erring by any right from them or any promise made to them It is needlesse therefore to make many words concerning any successor of S. Peter onely I will signifie how vncertaine your Religion must needs be that depends vpon such points as these You tell vs the Pope cannot erre We beleeue you not because we know he is at the best but a learned man oftentimes not so much sometimes scarce able to vnderstand his grammer You proue he cannot erre because he is Peters successor We deny the consequence Because he may succeed Peter in place and yet not in office of Apostleship whereby Peter had that priuiledge But principally we deny your antecedent that the Pope is Peters successor Now we looke for some certain euident proofe But alas there is none to be had We therfore thus except against this imagined succession First we say there is no word of scripture to proue that euer Peter came at Rome How then can it be a matter of faith to hold that he was Bishop of Rome Do not say you must beleeue the Church for the question is whether you be the true Church or no. Secondly we say farther that it is somewhat vncertaine euen in humane stories whether euer Peter were at Rome or no and if it were certaine yet it were nor a certaintie of faith but of opinion But that the force of your argument and the truth of my answer may the better appeare I wil propound your reason in forme and my exceptions against it Peters successor cannot erre The Pope is Peters successor Therefore the Pope cannot erre To the Maior I answer that he which succeeds Saint Peter in his whole right or in all his priuiledges and namely that of his Apostleship cannot erre but any other successor of his may erre because his priuiledge of not erring is a propertie of his Apostleship The proofe of your Maior is thus to be framed He to whom the keyes are promised for whom Christ prayed that his faith might not faile whom he charged to feed his sheepe cannot erre But to Peters successor Christ promised the keyes for him he prayed that his faith might not faile him he charged to feed his sheepe Therefore Peters successor cannot erre I denie the Maior if you take it in such sense as though the power of not erring had bene conueyed to Peter by reason of this promise prayer and charge otherwise notwithstanding by him Peter I grant that he to whom this promise was made that is Peter could not erre yet was he not free from errour by vertue of this promise prayer or charge as I shewed before The Minor is vtterly false the promise was made in generall to all the Apostles the prayer and charge were peculiar to Peters persō for such especial reason as I shewed before concerning his temptation to denie Christ and his deniall of him But you tell vs that you doe not apply that charge of feeding the sheepe to Saint Peters successors without sufficient authoritie and reason Then questionlesse you must be able to shew vs some warrant for your doing out of the Scriptures For the testimonie or opinion of man is too weake a ground to build a matter of faith vpon And yet you bring vs nothing but the word of a man to perswade vs and scarce that too For whereas you alledge Chrysostome to countenance the matter it is but a copie of your countenance rather to feare then hurt vs. Chrysostome saith that our Sauiour shed his bloud to purchase those sheepe the care whereof he committed to Peter and his successors But who are these successors All ministers or at the least all Bishops If you haue read the place I need not proue it to you Chrysostome had caused Basil to be preferred to a Bishopricke against his will Hereupon Basil complaines of vnkind dealing The other to excuse himselfe vndertakes to shew that he had not onely not hurt him but also done
so many Bishops of their faction Vincentius acknowledgeth a succession continued though secretly from Simon Magus to Priscilian Let vs see ' now whether you bring any better reason for your selues then you haue done against vs They are euen much about one That Church which can shew a line all succession of her Bishops without interruption from the Apostle Peter to Cloment now liuing is Apostolicke But the Church of Rome can shew such a succession without interruption Therefore the Church of Rome is Apostolicke Tertullian thought it sufficient to proue the hereticks not to be Apostolicke that their doctrine agreed not with the Apostles And Ambrose truly affirmed that they haue not the inheritance of Peter which haue not the faith of Peter He saith Nazianzen that professeth the same doctrine of faith is partaker of the same throne But he that embraceth contrary doctrine must be thought an aduersary euen in the throne He may haue the name but the other hath the truth of succession Therefore Irenaeus saith plainly that those Bishops onely are to be obeyed who together with succession haue the truth But of this I spake before Chap. 15. Where there is no beginning what continuance or successiō can there be Is not the question whether Peter were euer at Rome or no full of doubt Are you able in any sort to resolue it by Scripture vnlesse perhaps we may say that he neuer came there because it is no where plainly set downe nor probably to be gathered from thēce that euer Saint Peter was at Rome But it is more vnlikely that euer he was Bishop of Rome I might go forward to aske you who was his successor Linus or Clement which is a point not agreed vpon by auncient writers Since that time you haue had 32. schismes in your Church sometimes two sometimes three Popes at once that your succession cannot be so cleare as you would make it To proue your minor you tell vs that the auncient Fathers did much esteeme succession from the Apostles and vsed it as an argument to confound the hereticks and to confirme themselues in the vnitie of the Catholicke Church Who denieth that succession is to be esteemed and that it hath some force to confute and confirme But what succession is it that is of such price force Personall succession alone without truth VVe heard ere while what Tertullian Irenaeus Nazianzen and Ambrose say concerning succession that without truth it deserueth no credit Yea some of your owne writers confesse that an argument from succession doth not hold affirmatiuely as if there were a true Church wheresoeuer there is succession VVherby doth Irenaeus confound heresies by shewing a personall succession of Bishops from the Apostles VVhat could that helpe the matter vnlesse he be also able to proue that the doctrine he maintaines hath come successiuely from the Apostles by them He speaks plaine enough We confound all errors by the doctrine of the Apostles and the faith preached to men by thē Let not the word tradition trouble any man Irenaeus for that expounds himselfe where he saith that the Apostles first preached the Gospell and afterward by the will of God deliuered it to vs in the Scriptures to be the pillar and foundation of our faith The continuance of this doctrine by succession is vsed by Irenaeus as a motiue to perswade men to the liking of that truth which had receiued so good acceptation and was warranted by so good authority as the teaching of the Apostles themselues In a word Irenaeus saith that heresies might then be refuted by shewing that they who had bene ordained Bb. by the Apostles and their successors continued in the doctrine receiued without any approbation of such hereticall fancies Austin you say was held in the Church as himselfe professeth by the succession of Priests from the verie seat of Peter And why should he not be held by that rather thē leaue the Church for the dreames of the Manichees VVe say as Austin did that such a succession is a better proof of the Church then their bare promise of truth especially since as the same Austin sheweth otherwhere they wold haue their word to be takē as you now would haue yours for sufficient proofe But Austin in the verie same place you alledge addeth withall that if they could shew that the truth was on their side he would preferre it before succession and whatsoeuer other reason that made him continue a member of the Church In this sense did those other ancient writers esteeme and vrge succession whose names you muster to small purpose but onely for shew of authoritie Concerning that speech of Athanasius be not so iniurious either to him or your selues as to presse his testimony to so leud a purpose Would you haue men thinke that he which refuted and confounded Arius and his complices by so many and so worthy proofes out of the holy Scriptures would condemne not onely other men but himselfe also for deriuing his faith in that point from the Scriptures But though you care not what become of all the Fathers so your Popery may flourish yet like a reasonable man consider what a terrible blow you giue your owne cause Is there no other marke of the Church but succession Then by Bellarmines iudgement there is none at all who allowes it not as a certaine light to shew vs the Church But what wants it of blasphemy to pronounce men to be hereticks for making the Scriptures the foundation of their faith to which purpose Irenaeus saith that they were left And I pray you answer me directly why it should not be as lawful for me to groūd my faith vpon the beginning of this succession in the Apostles as vpon the continuance of it in other men Yet might Athanasius well say concerning that point of our Sauiour Christs Godhead that he was to be counted an hereticke that should deriue the beginning of his faith from any other ground then the whole succession wherein the Apostles were comprehended and whose doctrine the Churches of Christ till that time in that matter had followed But how will you proue out of this place of Athanasius that this should be a mark to discerne hereticks by alwaies It was then an excellent and admirable argument in that point not of it owne nature but because the truth had successiuely bene held till those times How will you answer Bellarmine who affirmes confidently and truly that truth goes not alwaies with succession For if it did why should not succession be a certaine mark of a true Church But Bellarmine saith it is not You tell vs that otherwise the ordinance of Pastors made by our Sauiour Christ shall be frustrate of the effect intended by him What vnlesse there be truth wheresoeuer there is succession Then can it not come to passe that any Pastor hauing lawfull ordination can erre For if one