haue made euerie one his owne translation to binde his fellowes there vnto as the best and you haue not yet done translating and changing your translations whereas none of you can denie and all wise men doe see that if one translation could be generallie aggreed vppon it were best Now further because elder tymes as being neerer to the writers had better helpes and purer coppies it is better in the iudgment of all meÌ„ the translation be old and made in those tymes rather then now in this scarcitie of coppies this obscuritie of the language this want of the meanes which then were CoÌ„c Trid Sess 4. This considered the Catholique Church hath decreed in the Councell of Trent that among Latine translations the old and common by the longe vse of many ages approoued in the Church stand authentique and be taken for It is not any where declared by the Church that in the Clementine Edition the Vulgar Latine Translation is fullie restored to the Primitiue Integritie in all parts and words Our beleefe doth follow the declaration of the Church VVhat she defineth wee receaue THOSE who were vsed in the restitution of the Translation saie thus Accipa Christiano lector CLEMENTE summo Pontifico ANNVENTE veterem ac vulgatam Sacra Scripturae editionem quanta fieri potuit diligentia castigatam quam quidem sicut omnibus numeris absolutam pro humana imbecillitate affirmare deffieile est ita caeteris omnibus quae ad hanc vsque diem prodierunt emendatiorem purioremque esse minimè dubitandum Praefat. ad lect Some of Sixtus Bibles might be surreptitiously scattered and Iames might get a coppie but they were neuer openlie sould in Catholike Countries And the Church neuer beleeued the Correction to be so accurate that it could not be amended Decree of a Generall Councell for the fullnes of either correction I speake of them as of two in that sense as Iames doth you knowe there is none A Bull takes not force from the Printer nor from the Secretarie and Iames cannot prooue that Sixtus his Bull was euer authenticallie published By the records no such thing appeares The Church knowes not of it If it had bene it were not hard to accord all Remember what hath ben said in the former Chapter touching pretended opposition in Decrees and what I haue â—eere cited out of the Preface to the Bible such I tould you before wise men would haue but One aÌ„d this one to haue bene made long agoe when it might better be performed and to be lookt on by diuers able to iudge of the goodnes and better able and more impartiall then our selues Whence it followes that the wisest had not the decree at all bene made would yet haue chosen this it being the Old and coÌ„mon translation For it was made in the tyme of the Primitiue Church reuiewed in those daies by S. Hierome compared since by learned men in all ages to such originalls as in each age they could finde and vsed by the Church for manie hundred yeares 30. The Fountaines wee reuerence too and more fullie then you doe admitting and beleeuing whatsoeuer can be manifestlie prooued to belonge iustlie thereunto to the verie last word and letter And it is ignorance in you to say that in the Councell of Trent they be reiected The decree speakes of Latine editions onelie ex omnibus latinis editionibus quae circumferuntur c. and makes choise of one by generall vse loÌ„g before approoued True it is that the puritie of the fountaine it selfe in some places is called in question Calu. in in zach 11. inst l. 1. c 13. and Caluin your Master doth imagine that it runnes not allwaies cleerlie as you may see in his Institutions Luth. Enar in Esa c 9. Luther cryeth out on the Iewes for crucifying the text and what difficultie the Rabbines theÌ„selues haue appeares cleerely by their great Massoreth Wee haue more helpe then you all to knowe the truth in this question too wee admitte the doctrine of Tradition so must the Iewes so must you otherwise you know not which is text Wee haue allso the assistance of the holie Spirit in the Church to declare the veritie aÌ„d power of originalls where the generall necessitie of the Church doth require it and there is no Catholique in the world which is not readie to beleeue their puritie and integritie so farre as there is sufficient warrant for it 31. But how came these corruptions into the Bible this question you should haue putt vnto your Masters for my part I thinke the resolution of it nothing at all necessarie for our purpose Writers might easilie mistake especiallie considering the little difference of many Hebrewe Characters and the nicenes of the points and suppose the points be taken of there will be found some fault in the letters I knowe the Iewes are men and therefore if Gods assistance be not in the businesse their labour in counting letters giues me no securitie for how shall I knowe that their coppies were exact that the letters be dulie ordered c. which is requisite because the disposition and combination of the same letters may be diuers not onelie in one period which may serue to change the sense but in the same verie word and of the integritie in this kinde which is necessarie to the knowledge of the sense as also of the exact integritie of the Coppies which they numbred you can giue no generall warrant Againe besides the difficultie or impossibilitie of this you will be sore troubled yea it is vnpossible for you proceeding in your Protestant Principles to giue satisfaction yeauen to your owne fellowes in any part of Scripture whatsoeuer because you maintaine that all men notwithstanding the promise which God hath made vnto the Church may haue erred and consequentlie S. Ierom and S. Augustine aÌ„d others being men may likewise haue done so in determining or iudging which Scripture or writing is diuine especiallie since each part each verse is not a fundameÌ„tall as you speake I am not troubled at all in the busines but let the learned scanne the difficulties and sift things out remaining euer readie to beleeue what the Church hath or hereafter shall resolue touching the puritie the interpretation and sense of the whole or any part place or word of the text you and your Protestant Congregation with your distinction of fundamentall and not fundamentall haue no meanes to determine the integritie of the Scripture touching bookes parts verses words interpretation as in an other place I haue declared more at large THE SIXT CHAPTER Of the reall Presence 33. VVHen wee dispute you graunt the Reall Presence not able otherwise to make answere to Scripture and Antiquitie but when you dispute you declare manifestly that you beleeue it not You will not beleeue you say that the body of a man can be vnder the forme or shape of breade that the same thing can be in heauen and on the alter too If
inhabited so mind full of God that she hath his words euer in her mouth and by this she is euer existent euer visible That Church or whore which you hunte after perished longe agoe for many ages she was not seene her faith was extinguished her religion drowned she was no where visible she had no face she vanished presentlie immediatelie after the Apostles dayes Our Religion in the meane tyme hathe bene vniuersall many hundred yeares it hath ouer flowed the Christian world none resisting and raigned vniuersallie without any debateable contradiction these thousand two hundred sixtie yeares And thus much of them both you confesse 18. I come now to speake of the religion of the Church primitiue or first six hundred yeares as you measure it and obiect that you doe not nor euer will be able to conuince by cleare and sufficient euidence that the Christian Church in those tymes was of the religion currant now in England and therfore you doe not conuince our vnderstandings that wee should leaue that religion which a thousand yeeres together was currant here in England being then allso by your owne confession the religion of the Christian world and communicate with your congregation And to shewe you here how hard a taske you haue in hand being to giue euidenee of the consent of those tymes with you in religion I will put three considerations in your way which declare the difficultie and indeede the impossibilitie of the taske The first shall be the iudgmeÌ„t of those who liued since that tyme aÌ„d before vs the second the testimonies of the Fathers theÌ„ selues who liued in that primitiue age the third the confession of your owne prime deuines and these I will runne ouer as brieflie as I can 19 First therfore our Religion or Papistrie as you call it had possession of the Christian Arg. 1 world before Luther nine hundred yeares together You confesse the same as wee haue seene aboue nu 16. as all histories doe prooue cleerlie and these Christians all on their Saluation haue deposed that theirs was the verie same religion with that which was commoÌ„ in the first six huÌ„dred yeares and receaued from the Apostles and from Christ himselfe Among them were greate Schollers graue Prelates and holie meÌ„ in great abundance and greater meanes to knowe which was the religion of their forefathers then are now wherfore the question being of fact onelie it is not possible to resolue it better now then those could resolue it then The question I say is now aÌ„d then was of fact as whether the knowne Church of God spred ouer the world in the sixt age for example did frequeÌ„t masse adore the blessed Sacrament confesse their sinnes to Priests fast lent pray to Sainctes and the like what wee knowe of these things wee haue by the relation or writings of others which were before vs for wee caÌ„not see so far immediately with our owne eies nor immediatelie heare them speaking in that age which is past many hundred yeares agoe Those before vs did learne of others that were elder the fourteenth age learned of the thirteenth the thirteeÌ„th of the twelfth the eight of the seuenth the seuenth was immediate vnto the sixt aÌ„d therefore had best meanes to resolue this point because these meÌ„ had their Being Instruction Baptisme Sacraments Orders Records the Bible and all others things from them we speake of that is from the sixt age aÌ„d being close to them of that age So compare the 6. age to the 5. the 5. to the 4. c. and in part allso liuing with them could see heare obserue remember and tell what they did Since therfore all these did beleeue and professe and teach vnto their successors and to their dearest frinds and children aÌ„d generallie vnto the world that theirs was the religioÌ„ of their forefathers it is too late for you now to endeauour to prooue the contrarie for you haue no kinde of historie no monument no relation no fathers writing no scrowle no obseruation in fine noe euidence touching the foresaid age but from them To this I adde that it is vnpossible for the whole Church in any age to erre which is so cleere that to man leaues any way to himselfe to be assured in any point of faith from Antiquitie or from the scripture or from the spirit who denieth it It is therefore vnpossible that for nine hundred yeeres together it should be mystaken in this great affaire of the religioÌ„ of the whole World before them And if the Spirit forsooke it for so loÌ„ge a tyme together notwithstanding Gods promise you labour in vaine to make men beleeue that he is at leÌ„gth returned in your tyme or another promise more faithfully establisshed now Better were it for you to beleeue with vs that allmightie God hath not violated his couenant wherof I spake before my words which I haue put in thy mouth shall not depart out of thy mouth and out of the mouth of thy seed Isay 59.21 and out of the mouth of the seed of thy seede from this present and foreuer And that his eternall ordinance stands in force whereof S. Paul speaketh saying that God gaue Pastors and Doctors to the consummation of the saincts Ephes 4. v. 11.12 vnto the worke of the ministerie to the edifieing of the bodie of Christ vntill wee meete all into the vnity of faith 21. The second meanes or demonstration Arg. 2 is deduced larglie through all ages and out of all the Fathers writings by diuers of our men Thesaurus Catholicus Iod. Cocc among the rest you may looke vppon Coccius and Gualterius who haue expressed our consent with the primitiue Church so fullie and brought such euident and so resolute decrees of auncient Fathers against your errours Tabula Chronographica stat Eccl. Cath. â—aâ— Gualt that you haue dispaired longe agoe of euer winning the cause by this kinde of triall The authorities which they alleage are allmost infinite Coccius hath filled with them two great Tomes and my intention is not to make a booke of this matter but a peece of a Chapter onelie Brieflie therefore for exaÌ„ple I will giue aÌ„ instaÌ„ce in two or three such as doe come first into my minde You denie the primacie of the Roman See the beleefe of vnwritten Doctrine or Tradition the reall preseÌ„ce traÌ„substantiatioÌ„ or coÌ„uersioÌ„ of the substaÌ„ce of breade into the flesh of Christ oblatioÌ„ or vnbloody Sacrifice in the Church prayer for the dead inuocatioÌ„ of Sainctes Crossing c. In the Fathers wee reade thus S. Aug. Ep. 162. Iren. l. 3. aduers Haer. c. 3. The principalitie of the Apostolicall chaire hath euer florished in the Roman Church It is necessarie that euery Church that is all faithfull rounde aboute resorte vnto the Roman Church because of her more powerfull Principalitie in which Church the Tradition which is from the Apostles is allwayes kept by the faithfull which are round about Leo Sem 3.
of the Deuil opposed to the Cittie of God or Societie of the Good Others think it to be Rome as it was in S. Iohns time when the Emperours there abiding did persecute the Church of Christ and as it will be about the end of the world Be it this or that or some other nothing is heere auouched against vs. It is not heere said that the Pope is that Woman or that he is the Beast on which the Woman sate or that he is one of the Heades of the Beast or that he is Antichrist No one of all these is heere affirmed why then do you alleage it what is this to the argument wherein I said the Scripture doth no where formallie contradict vs or how doth it iustifie your bragge that you haue Scripture in manifest places free from all ambiguitie on your side 43. And thus farre concerning the texts alleaged by Iohn White which he affirmed to be manifestlie and without ambiguitie for the Protestants where as not any one doth in termes contradict that which our Church doth teach which was the thinge he made his reader to expect But you will bid a man aske the Spirit for the sense of these places And to meet with you at this turning too so will I. You will direct him to the Spirit in your selfe in Iohn white I will direct him to the Spirit in the Church My direction and resolution is well grounded as I will declare here after Yours is not And if by this litle which hath bene said here in this Chapter a man would make a guesse at your Spirit he should quicklie find his nature First he contradicts the Spirit of the Fathers who held Purgatory merit c. SecoÌ„dlie he coÌ„tradicts the Spirit of the Catholike Church which he doth oppose in these things Thirdly he contradicts the Spirit of S. Iohn the Apostle and imputes vnto him a deliberate act of superstitious Idolatrie so you call adoring aÌ„gells together with grosse stupiditie that being tould once and that by an Angell too he would not forbeare but doe it againe But of this I shall speake againe in an other place that which for the present I conclude here is that the Scripture doth not condemne vs in plaine words You haue done all you can to shew it and cannot yet finde one place for this purpose You see allso by the way what I thinke of your consequences though that was not my scope in this discourse as I declared in the begining of the former Chapter THE SIXT CHAPTER That is vnpossible for Protestants to winne the cause by Scripture 44. HEretiques all generallie affect obscuritie they drawe their opponent as much as euer they can into the darke that he may not see there what they doe or their confusion be concealed from the people and so their credit saued I expected cleere places I looked for a coÌ„bate in the light you should haue shewne in plaine words in the Scripture there is no Purgatory Christ is not in the Sacrament reallie Priests and Bysshops may take wiues to worship Angells is Idolatrie These and the rest of your propositions you should haue showne there if you would haue woÌ„ne that way and haue done that which you pretended But you haue not done it you haue cited some places which haue it not in the words and in regard they are obscure to you or to the ignorant you suspect or guesse and preteÌ„d the sense which you would haue may lie secret in the words though you cannot shewe it there and wee knowe it is not there at all Wee haue light enough to see that the Scripture in those places doth not as much as obscurely speake against vs wee haue prayer aÌ„d industry wee haue the Fathers helpe wee haue innumerable eies regardiÌ„g the doctrine of the Church and the Scripture and coÌ„paring them together In a word the assisting Spirit with all his guifâ—s is in our Church 45. Now to shewe further how vnpossible a taske it is for you to declare and make it euident out of Scripture that yours is the true Religion and ours not I will turne the argument which I did vse in the begining of the former Chapter into an other forme aÌ„d make it thus If the scripture doth formallie auouch our doctrine and denie yours Arg. it is vnpossible for you to make it euident by the Scripture that your Religion is true and ours false But the Scripture doth formallie auouch our doctrine and denie yours and this I will shewe running thorough the points wherein our maine difference doth consist which are the Infallibility of the Church in deliuering Scripture aÌ„d Gods word generallie Traditions reall Presence OblatioÌ„ of Christs body aÌ„d blood in the formes of bread aÌ„d wine for the remissioÌ„ of Sinnes which is the vnbloodie Sacrifice The Primacie of S Peeter and his Pastorall office Absolution from sinnes by Priests Indulgences Iustice before God and intrinsecall in meÌ„ or inherent Iustification by works and Reward of them keeping the Commandements Freewill in works of grace Vowes and workes of Counsell not of command Single life prayer for the dead Intercession of Sainctes and Angells and finallie Worship of some things inanimate or sensles in regard of the reference they haue to things truely capable of honour more then ciuile In these generall heads the rest are included and these you name allwayes and stand most vppon them I am now by my promise to bringe their grounds out of Sripture wherein I will be as briefe as I can and will begin with the neerest which is the last aÌ„d so backwards till I meete the first againe Before I begine the taske two thinges are to be noted The first is that I am not in this Chapter to coÌ„tend about the sense and meaning if you pretend it is not that which the words offer immediately but that my taske is donne if I bringe places of scripture which affirme formally if the words be taken in their proper sense that which wee doe A further Iudgment or determination of the meaning and sense of the words I bringe is to be taken from the testimonie of the Spirit The Spirit I say is to be iudge of the sense and meaning not the spirit of externes or in them but the spirit in Gods Church And this Iudgment is euidently on our side as I will prooue in the third booke Here I am not to meddle with it but only to finde our doctrine in the same or equiualent words and to put it here downe This you must beare in minde likewise for the argumeÌ„t which in the third Chapter I made out of the Fathers It suffised there against you to cite our doctrine out of their mouthes Of their meaning the Spirit must be Iudge And not the Spirit in externes but the Spirit in the Church The second is that since to descend vnto particulars and to inquire each ones opinion in matter of Religion among ProtestaÌ„ts is endles and of infinite regard 3. Book
q. 5. c. 17. The Scripture Isay 59 2â— My words that I haue put in thy mouth shall not depart out of thy Mouth and out of the mouth of thy seede and out of the mouth of the seede of thy seede saith our lord from this present and for euer The same place your brother Puritan doth allso contradict in denying a perpetuall visible Church Wee beleeue that the Church is assisted by the holy Ghost to all truth You say No And so do all Hereticks Our Sauiour in the Scripture Io. 14.16 16. v. 13 I will giue you another Paraclete that he may abide with you for euer the Spirit of Truth he shall teach you all truth 55. Thus I am come in fine to the first againe which doth confirme all the rest RemeÌ„ber what I said in the begining of this Chapter in so much that what I haue here shewed in the last place out of Scripture doth prooue that the Church doctrine deliuered by word of Mouth is all true whether it be written downe in the Bible or be not for these places of Tradition by word the word of God euer in the mouth of the Church and the Spirit suggesting and teaching all truth are not limitted in the Scripture to writing as in the text you see And therefore now I repeate my argument made in the begining of this Chapter If the Scripture doth formallie auouch our doctrine and denie yours in the maine points wherein wee differ Arg. it is euidentlie vnpossible for you or any man breathing to make it euident by the Scripture that the Apostles and primitiue Church were of your Religion not of ours or that yours is true ours false But the Scripture doth auouch our doctrine and denie yours in the maine pointes wherein we differâ— as I haue showne Therefore it is euidently vnpossible for you or any man breathing to make it euident by the Scripture that the Apostles and primitiue Church were of your religion not of â—urs or that yours is true ours false 56. Now since your doctrine is thus contrary to Gods word and consequentlie your spirit being rubde vppoÌ„ this tuchstone being found to be counterfait it were not amisse to looke about from whence you had your doctrine and whence your Spirit came Which thing I could finde out without much adoe and would set downe here but that I haue allreadie bene to longe I will therefore onely \ shewe you the way to finde it and so conclude Looke out the place where Gods commandements are neuer kept but esteemed vnpossible where all actions are sinnes and sinnes neuer remitted or wiped cleane away where there is no Indulgence or remissioÌ„ of any paine due to sinne no works of supererogatioÌ„ acknowledged no state of perfectioÌ„ no Merit of works no Libertie to doe well no prayer for the deade no Communion with saincts in heauen nor prayers made vnto them where Priestlie function is abhorred holy Sacrifice blasphemed and the very Images of Christ and his Saincts loathed and detested Where there is no Iustice inherent no constant rectitude or infallibility of iudgment no coÌ„tinual Visibilitie of sacred Profession no Vnitie in Religion but a confused admittance of all that are against the Catholique of Wicklefists and Hussites Luther doth confesse it in his Booke de missa pri tom 7. fol. 228. VVittemb a. 1558. See Luthers life by Mr Brereley câ— 1. â— 2. and Arians and Athiests aÌ„d all people that will obstinatly refuse confession of their Sinnes works of pietie and the common Creede and make theÌ„selues their owne wittes the Iudge of all looke out this place aÌ„d the rest you will finde there I haue heard and reade and doe beleeue that the spirit which instructed Luther your Master came from thence The Conclusion THe protestants are not able to giue satisfactioÌ„ in the Question of the Church whereby as allso by their Opposition to the Scripture and Antiquitie it is manifest that theirs is not the true Religion which or where else soeuer the true Religion be THE SECOND BOOKE WHEREIN IS DECLARED which is the true Church THE FIRST CHAPTER Shewing by authoritie of holy scripture that the true Christian Church is Catholike for tyme and place 1. SINCE your Church cannot be prooued to be Catholicke or vniuersall in regard of a generall communion which the world and perpetuall visibilitie you pretend there is no necessitie of any such latitude of place or tyme and would perswade vs that it is Catholique for doctrine because it holds the three Creeds with Baptisme aÌ„d the Supper and is not tied to one tyme or Nation but such as may be in any which you call negatiue vniuersalitie for tyme and place and for doctrine positiue Thou seemest to speake acutelie said S. Augustine to Vincentius a man of the Rogation Heresie and your Master in the way of defending your Religion as it seemes when thou doest interprete the name Catholique S. Aug. ep 48 by the obseruation of all diuine Precepts and all Sacraments and not of the communion of the whole world c. but indeed the thing which thou doest indeuour to persuade vs is that onelie Rogatians haue remained who are rightlie to be called Catholiques by the obseruation of all the diuine lawes and all Sacraments and that you onelie are the men in whom the sonne of man may finde faith when he comes Pardon vs wee beleeue it not And afterwards in the same Epistle you are with vs in baptisme in the Creede in the rest of our lords Sacraments In the spirit of Vnitie and in the band of peace and finallie in the Catholique church you are not with vs. As that Rogatian so you in your interpretation would seeme acute but vnto such onelie as neither knowe Scripture nor the state of the Question It is true that the doctrine of the true Church is perfect and the Obiect of her faith entire in it selfe but in your books and beleefe it is mangled and diuided so that part onelie is there allowed as hereafter shall appeare The Question is not here about that but about the Church that is about a certaine congregation of men and about the Vniuersalitie of such a Congregation not negatiue as you would haue it but positiue of tyme and place And because you admit not a positiue vniuersalitie that is a being of the Church in all Nations and in all tymes I will demonstrate vnto you by Scripture the Vniuersalitie of the true Church which soeuer it be whether the Roman or any other of which further point I will not dispute in this Chapter And allthough the scripture be full of testimonies for this vniuersalitie I will alleadge a fewe onelie aÌ„d those in order out of Moyses the Psalmes Prophets and Gospell which being well looked into will suffice 2. But first lest you rhinke you are to open your eies to looke on a Church and it inuisible by reason that in the Creede wee beleeue the Church
quod etiam ipsi credebant alios autem timore cessissè simulatè consensisse Aug. Ep. 48. See Baronius as the yeare 359. about the Councell of Ariminium which approued the Nicene faith and cōdemned Vrsatius Valens c. Afterwardes happened that which S. Ierom speaketh of when the Councell was neither f◠nor approued and all Catholikes in the world admit that such a Councell might 〈◊〉 of Ariminium neuer approued by the See Apostolike nor euer acknowledged for lawfull by the Church and by your selues also reiected I answeare that there was noe cause of feare that the Church should by that acte be all deceaued and erre in faith for the Church hath alwayes the assistance of the holie Ghost to preserue her from errour in faith by couenant of God the Father and promise of God the sonne as in the next booke you shall heare at large Neither wanted there at any tyme learned men who knew that a Councell wanting the consent of the See Apostolique was not Oecumenical properlie nor an infallible rule of faith 58. If you plead against the visibilitie of our Church with this obiectiō it is weake for the Arians euer found opponēts and those visible such as at last wonne the field If you plead with it against the vniuersalitie of the Church it is also weake and impertinent it is impertinent as it comes from you because those Arians were not Protestantes and therfore their number makes nothing for the vniuersalitie of your cause And it is also weake because their communion was neuer with all Nations nor did euer equall the vniuersalitie of the Church Which is euident because the Catholique communion was elder by three hunderd yeares and was in that tyme spred ouer all Christendome and hath continued after Arianisme is gone these many hundred yeeres in the communion of the Christian world and more Natiōs haue bene since conuerted to it and are dailie and so will be till she hath bene in the communion of them all If therfore you will measure both take each communion in her greatest latitude of tyme and place or Nations and you will presentlie see Arianisme to be too narrowe and too short as not hauing possessed so many Nations nor dured so longe a tyme. Much lesse will you find that begining the same tyme it ranne side by side in an equall or a fuller streame through all ages to this daie and were so to continue if you intended this I should suspect your braine 59. Touching the comparison of it to that part of the Church at least which was at that tyme you thinke it so filled all places of the Christian world that Catholiques had noe roome This errour is of ignorance you may amend it if you inquire of some who did liue then If I should bring many testimonies you would saie I were tedious in matter of historie and therfore will content my selfe and you also if you be reasonable with one from many Authors S. Athanasius a man beyond exception together with diuers Bysshopes of Aegypt Thebais and Libia wrote to Iouiā the Emperour of the Nicene faith thus Know certainely ap Theodoret l. 4. c. 3. most holie Emperour that this same faith hath bene published from all memorie of ages this the holie fathers assembled at Nice haue confirmed to this haue assented all Churches euerie where as of Spaine of Britanie of France of all Italie of Dalmatia of Mysia of Macedonia and all Greece and all the Churches of Africke Sardinia Cyprus Creete Pāphilia Lycia Isauria and the Churches of Aegypt Lybia Pontus Cappadocia and the Churches of the bordering countryes and finallie the Churches of the east some fewe excepted which doe fauour the Arian sect for wee doe certainelie know the sentence of them all and haue receaued letters from them and doe know certainlie most holie Emperour that although a fewe doe contradict this faith the whole world cannot suffer preiudice therby 60. Sixtly you oppose vnto vs want of vnitie I answeare that all Catholiques doe submit their vnderstandings to the iugment of the Church and to the generall decrees of their Pastores and masters readie to beleeue whatsoeuer they generallie in Councells doe define and to reiect whatsoeuer they condemne and by these meanes are vnited perfectlie vnto those Councelles and to the whole Church in faith and iudgment about religion each man in the Church hauing his vnderstanding vndeuided in beleefe from the Church and so being one with it Vnitie consisting in Indiuision as you haue learned of the philosopher lōge agoe Our Councelles likewise are one in doctrine as the partes of Scriptures are though they be not Scripture but declarations of Gods word that is they are vndiuided there being amōgst thē all noe opposition or dissent in decrees and definitiōs ād the later receauing what hath bene formerlie defined wherof hereafter I will discourse a part because as Iulian Porphyrie and others thought they sawe cōtradictions in the Scripture so you haue imagined the like of Coūcelles though nothing so many nor haueing that shew as those had which by the foresaid infidelles were obiected and if you know not so much you are not of that reading your frindes haue taken you to be To your argumente I saie therfore that this companie hath vnitie in beleefe noe man at all in the companie being diuided from the rest in beleefe howsoeuer about thinges vndefinied and vndetermined by the Church in their tyme there might be diuersitie of opinions ād may be now in the like as he knowes that hath bene a weeke in the Schooles of deuinitie The same companie hath originallie likewise vnitie in religion and faith each vnderstanding in the whole mysticall bodie being submitted to the same iudge of cōtrouersies that is to Gods Spiritte in the Church Catholique and acknowledging this one Spiritte and this one Church and this one Spiritte in this one Church iudging defininge determining ruling all VVhich common vnion and consent in one makes their communion so generall so firme and so conspicuous as you are faine to see with your eies against your will 61. A seuenth argument is made against succession and it is obiected that wee haue noe succession of Catholiques or of such as wee are I answeare that the Catholique religion and Church is that whose communion is with all Nations as you haue heard and a Catholicke is a man who doth resolue his faith into this Church and into the Spiritte which doth assist and teach it such were all who did receaue the Generall Councelles before spoken of and the doctrine of the Church present to the tymes wherein they liued which were infinite and such will be to the worldes end If you will haue some assigned more particularly that you may dispute against them I name whole assemblies of pastors in Generall Councell I name the Generall Councells mentioned heretofore In them was our Succession and the Catholique Church in them was conspicuous and worlds of people did communicate with
is the sense of the Spiritte of the Catholique Church and of the holie Ghost himselfe And in this sense of vnbloodie exteriour Sacrifice in forme of breade and wine the catholique church diffused thorough the whole world doth and euer did vniuersallie consent as I haue sufficientlie declared 76. Lastlie taking the Christian Church thus beleeuing and practizing and comparing it to the Prophecies I confound the Iewes too and make an in euitable demoÌ„stration that the Catholique Church in communion of all Nations thus offering a cleane Oblation to God EVERIE WHERE is the true Church of God and shake those people of with that of Malachie My will is not in you saith the Lord of hosts and guifte I wil not receaue at your hand Mal. 1. v. 10 11. for from the rising of the Sunne euen to the going downe my name is greate among the GENTILES and IN EVERIE PLACE there is Sacrificing and there is offered to my name a CLEANE OBLATION because my name is greate AMONGE THE GENTILES saith the Lord of Hosts THE TENTH CHAPTER Tradition 80. BEing not able with your sillie Arguments to driue vs from the Masse you growe desperate and runne foolishlie into the mouth of a Canon It was declared at Nice and since againe at Trent Conc. Nicen 2. act 7. Conc. Tr. sess 4. that Tradition is to be admitted without it you can knowe nothing in diuine matters because it must reach you the Scriptures wherein you pretend to grouÌ„d your selfe Yet because it doth withall offer more then you are willing to receaue you speake against it I haue spoken of it sufficientlie in the first and third bookes but since you repeate your argument I will resume also part of my discourse 8s The doctrine of Tradition is grounded in the Scripture 2. Thess 2. v. 15. Hold and obserue the Traditions which you haue learned either by word of mouth or by our letter heere are distinguished as you see plainlie two waies of deliuering the sacred truth and instruction one is by writing the other by word of mouth and it is to be kept and obserued if the Apostle may be iudge in the matter whether it be deliuered the one way or the other The same in another place allso he doth teach writing vnto Timothie thus 2 Tim. 2. v 2. The things which thou hast heard of me by manie wittnesses commend vnto faithfull men which shall be fitte to teach others allso This is the care the Apostle did take that what he had said might be conuaied vnto Posteritie from haÌ„d to hand commend vnto them saith he which shall be fitte he doth not say to write but to teach these thiÌ„gs which thou hast heard of me he doth not say which thou hast reade but heard and that openlie by manie wittnesses this doctrine taught by word of mouth is to be conserued by teaching others and this is the sacred depositum where of he had spokeÌ„ in the former chapter referring the good keeping thereof to the assistance of the holy Ghost 2. Tim. 1. v 14. keepe the good depositum by the holie Ghost which dwelleth in vs. Which is conformable to our Sauiours promise in S. Iohn He the holie Ghost shall teach you all things and suggest vnto you all things whatsoeuer I shall saie vnto you He saith not whatsoeuer shall be written but whatsoeuer I shall saie and God the Father in his promise to the Church Isa 59. v. 21 My words that I haue putte in thy mouth shall not depart out of thy mouth c. which words are more generall then if he had said thus the Scripture shall neuer be out of thy eies or thou shalt be euer reading that which I will cause to be writteÌ„ or it shall neuer out of the booke whereinsoeuer I shall write it he saith not so but my words shall not out of thy mouth and out of the mouth of thy seed and out of the mouth of the seede of thy seede from hence forth for euer a cleere testimonie of the perpetuitie of sacred doctrine euer deliuered by word of mouth which is the thing wee call Tradition 82. Heerevppon Sainct Ireneus a man neere vnto the Apostles tyme â— Iren. l. 3. â—du Haeres â— 2.3.4 and well seene in their doctrine doth say that the Tradition in the Church receaued from the Apostles hath beene kept by the Succession of Bisshops that the Apostles laid vp in the Church as in a rich depositorie all truth and that therefore for resolution of controuersies recourse is to be made vnto the most auncient Churches So likewise Tertullian one allso of those who were neere vnto the Apostles tyme doth tell vs that in disputation with Heretiques wee are not to appeale vnto the Scripture Tertull. Praesc c. 19. because Heretiques will interprete as they list but that wee must inquire where the faith where the Church is from whom by whom when and to whom the discipline hath beene deliuered whereby Christians are made for where it shall appeale that the truth of discipline and Christian faith is there will be the truth of the Scriptures and of Expositions and of all Christian Traditions wee must vse Tradition S. Epiphan Haeres 61. Vide eundem in haeresi 55. 69. saith S. Epiphanius because all things cannot be had out of diuine scripture wherefore the holie Apostles haue deliuered some things by scriptures and some things by Tradition Many things saith Sainct Augustine are not found in the writings of the Apostles nor in the constitutions of later Councells which notwithstanding are beleeued to haue bene deliuered and commended by them the Apostles because by the vniuersall Church they are obserued S. August l. 2. Bapt c. Donat. c. 7. The doctrines which are obserued and taught in the Church wee haue partlie by the written word and partlie wee haue had them brought vnto vs by Apostolicall tradition S. Basil l. de sp s c. 27. Ib. c. 29. S. Chrys in 2. Thess â— saith S. Basil and in another place I esteeme it Apostolicall to perseuer in vnwritten traditions It is manifest saith S. Iohn Chrysostome that the Apostles deliuered not all by letters but many things without writing and these the vnwritten are as worthie to be beleeued as those other deliuered by writing Wherefore wee thinke the Churches tradition worthie of beleefe it is a tradition Vincent Lirin c. 1. 2. looke no more To conclude Vincentius Lirinensis in his booke of the Prophane Noueltie of Heresies doth tell that he learned of wise and holie men this way to perseuer in the true faith to fence it as he saith with the authoritie of the diuine lawe and with the tradition of the Catholique Church And obiecting presentlie to him selfe as if Ecclesiasticall authoritie were not necessarie because of the sufficiencie of the Scriptures he answeares that it is necessarie because all men vnderstand not the Scripture the same way because of the depth
England for example but in the world it shall allwayes bee ◠2. c. 1. for so much is euident by the Scripture Neither doth it followe God permittes some tymes one man to fall into Apostasie some tymes another therfore he will at once permitte all he permittes diuers to die before you ād for ought you knowe he may permitte any one man whom soeuer you can name or thinke of yea any one in all the world yet hence it is not cōsequēte that it stands with his generall prouidence to permitt euery one to die before you that so you may be last the onelie man a liue I answeare therfore that As by vertue of Gods generall prouidence in as much as he is author of nature there be still in the world men though some at all tymes dropp away so by vertue of Gods prouidence as he is author of the supernaturall order among men there be euer Catholiques in the world and so will be still as long as the world stands though some men yea some Nations and some perticular Churches do fall of 124 The next which is allso the last I am to speake of here lookes bigge ō all ād thinkes to make an ēd of our cause with one blowe The scope of it is to proue that all may erre and therfore that wee are not to be heard though neuer so many Councells and auncient fathers and worlds of people doe stand for vs and comes on in this manner The whol◠Church militant consisting of mē Wh◠are lyers may erre alltogethe◠as euery part thero◠Fulk ans◠to Count Cat. p. 89. All Christians that are or euer were in the world are men therfore it might happen that all haue erred though they were assēbled together neuer so orderlie because euery man is a lier If this argumēt did prooue any thing it would prooue that all Councells all Apostles all Euangelists all prophets hether to may for any thing you know haue bene in errour for all these were men and euery man is a lier This is the vp shott of your disputation this is the hauen you haue all this while bene sailing vnto this though first but a shifte wherunto you were driuen by the strength of authoritie brought against you is now your doctrine and a Conclusion in your bookes Our answeare is easie that man of himselfe might erre but by diuine assistance might be so guided that he erred not and no man can denie this vnles he denie that God is omnipotent or omniscious which if he doe the light of nature will condemne him Thus generall Councells are assisted thus were the Euangelists allso and thus the Prophetts though nor after the same manner all And the promise of the Assistance did more concerne the Pastors then the people Oecumenicall Councells then each Bisshop single the whole colledge of the Apostles more then one Though each Apostle being to teach the whole Church in the nature of an Apostle had this assistance too and our Sauiour praying for the sanctification of his elected in truth or for their perseuerance included the meanes allso of this perseuerāce of his elect in the truth which is the perpetuitie of his assistance vnto those in whome is the teaching authoritie respectiuelie to the whole in which those elected are though to pastors in particular vnknowne 125. But to looke now a little vppon you who are so resolute in your ignorance as to thinke that all may haue mystaken the truth which you haue foūd and haue bene forsakē by the Spiritte who singularlie fauours you I demaund of you the Spirittes darling and worlds fresh Oracle First how one may knowe that you are exempted frō the world of men which may erre alltogether or what other species or kind you and your witte belonge vnto that men should leaue the whole world though consenting and take your authoritie against them all the same Question would I aske of your fellowe Rainolds ād of Whittaker were they liuing but hauing vndertaken their cause the resolution belongs to you in their absēce Secondlie I desire a sight of your particular letters patents from Iesus Christ wherein the teaching Spiritte is thus singularlie bequeathed and addicted vnto you or to either of the forenamed in particular or Iohn white if you had rather togeather with a clause that though he breake his promise made vnto the Church and hath not as he said he would sente the allteaching Spiritte to the Apostles to their Successors or to the Church Catholique yet that that other promise no where extant for ought wee knowe made particularlie vnto you his deerest he will not breake and how you are sure he will stand to this clause Thirdlie I demaūd why the Catholiques of Englād be there commaunded and vrged allso to conforme their conscience to the doctrine of your Church and to rest in her iudgment and in the parlamentarie decrees for points of Religion though worlds of men as learned euery waie I speake least as your selues doe and haue maintained the contrarie to their dying daie as conformable to the Scripture to reasō ād to the practise of their forefathers time out of mind I demaund I saie why you proceede with thē in this manner before you giue euidēce that you are not in errour since you likewise are mē and all mē may erre as you tell vs. Euidence I say greater thē any these haue on their side I demaund further of your wisdome how you doe know and are certaine that the Euāgelists Apostles ād Prophetts did write those bookes which you take for diuine Scripture and how you doe know your selfe ād cā prooue to me there is no errour or mistaking in the matter if all mē may haue erred And I demaund further how you doe knowe that he which did write the first Gospell suppose he were S. Matthewe did not erre since he was a man and all men you saie may erre I demaund Fiftlie howe men shall come to be sure of the sense of a peece of Scripture and to haue the controuersies in religion determined Must he come to you why rather then to the Church which was before you were borne and had the promise of the Spiritte If to the Spiritte why rather to that in you them to that in the Church If to others why must wee goe to old Heretiques to Iewes to Pagans to Athiests rather then to the Church why should any knowe better then she or abounde more with the Spiritte then she doth I demaund next what an Heretique is and why he which opposeth himselfe in matters of faith to generall Councells to the Spiritte of the Catholique Church and to Gods word proposed by this Church and expounded by this Spiritt is not one And Seuenthlie I demaund whether this sinne be not against the holie Ghost and whether he who dieth in it shall be saued and admitted into the Church triumphant who thus opposed the militant and died a vowed enemy to her and to her