Dialogue Sectio VII SAint Austine Pompous funerals great troups of mourners sumptuous monuments these doe bring some cōfort such as it is vnto the liuing but they are not auaileable vnto the dead but we ought a VVhat is it that puts the matter out of doubt let that be shewed and we will doubt no longer not to doubt but that the dead are relieued by the prayers of the holy Church by the holesome sacrifice and by almes which are giuen that it might please our Lord to deale more mercifully with them than their sinnes haue deserued This custome the vniuersall Church doth obserue being deliuered by Tradition a Austine saith a patribus not ab Apostolis from the Apostles that whereas at the time of the sacrifice commemoration is made of b All communicants and onely communicants are prayed for is this catholicke doctrine think you all soules departed in the communion of the body and blood of Christ they should be prayed for and that the sacrifice also should be offered for them de verb. Apost sermon 32. We ought c Nor wee ought not to say it vnlesse we could proue it not to deny that the soules of the dead are relieued by the deuotion of their liuing friends when as eyther the sacrifice of our Redéemer is offered for them or almes giuen in the Church Enchir. ad Laurent prope fin When the Martyrs are mentioned at the altar of God they are not prayed for but d VVhat all confessors bishops popes and all all other which are dead which are there remembred are prayed for de verb. Apostol serm 17. When the sacrifice whether it bee of the altar or of almes déedes is offered for such as are dead e VVhy not before as well as after you may as well offer for the vnbaptized as for those that be valdé mali after Baptisme for those that be very good they be thanksgiuing for those which be not very euil they be propitiatory for those which be very euill although they profit not the dead yet are they some comfort vnto the liuing Dulcitij question quest 2. Reade his epistle ad Aurelium Episcopum and his Treatise de cura pro mortuis This was no doubt S. Austines f Or else you know not what faith is faith which he wrote taught and practised in his church and which was at that time generally receiued in the Latine Churches The Answere AVstine belike is plentifull in this question for we haue here foure seuerall places out of his workes which we will briefely runne ouer as they come In the first Austine is forced to turne his tale for whereas before where this place was alledged for Tradition prayer for the dead was no more but a Tradition of the fathers here Austine is intreated to say that it was deliuered by Tradition from the Apostles me thinks your Papist should know that our writers alleage this verie place of Austine to shew that this manner of praying was receiued of the Church long after the Apostles time Decad. 4. serm 10. as for example Bullinger in his Decades Illud dissimulare non possum saith he id quod isti traditionem Apostolorum appellant S. Augustinum nuncupare traditionem patrum ab ecclesia receptam nam sermone de verbis Apostoli 32. hoc à patribus inquit traditū vniuersa obseruat ecclesia c. This I cannot hide that that which they call a traditō of the Apostles Quest 1. Augustine calleth a tradition of the Fathers receiued by the Church see Serm. de verbis Apostoli 32. This saith he being deliuered by the Fathers doth the whole Church obserue And a litle after cōcludeth His significantius innuere videtur hunc ritū orandi pro defunctis haud dubie post longa internalla à temporibus Apostolorū ab ecclesia receptū esse By these words he seemeth more throughly to insinuate that this custome of praying for the dead was without all doubt receiued by the Church a long space after the Apostles times Wherefore this budgening and setting downe quid pro quo in so materiall a testimonie argueth a peruerse resolution rather to quench the fire of truth than the stubble and straw of our errours should be consumed But for answere I say that Austine himselfe doubted of that which here he saith we ought not to doubt of thus he writes in the questions of Dulcitius Siue in hac vita tantum homines ista patiuntur siue etiam post hanc vitam talia quaedam iudicia subsequuntur non abhorret quantùm arbitror à ratione veritatis iste intellectus huius sententiae Whether men suffer these things onely in this life or whether after this life some such iudgements follow this vnderstanding of this sentence is not without some shew of truth as I suppose Also in his Bookes De Ciuitate Dei Lib. 21. cap. 26 Siue ibi tantum siue hic ibi siue ideo hic vt non ibi saecularia quamuis à damnatione venialia concremantem ignem transitoriae tribulationis inueniant non redarguo quia forsitan verum est Whether thinges committed in this world though veniall in respect of damnation doe find a transitorie fire of tribulation here onely or here and there or therfore here because not there I seek not to conuince because perhaps it is true and in his Enchiridion Cap. 69. Tale aliquid post hanc vitam fieri incredibile non est vtrum ita sit quaeri potest That some such thing is done after this life it is not incredible and whether it bee so done it is a question Now then if Austine himselfe doubted whether men be punished transitorily after this life I knowe your Papist wil giue vs leaue to doubt whether the dead be releeued by our prayers Moreouer it is here likewise to be obserued that no soule were praied or offered for or thought worthy to be remembred at the Altar but such as departed in the communion of the bodie and blood of Christ Lib. 1. Contr. Iulian. lib. 1 de peccat merit remiss Concil 6. cap. 83. Carth. Con. 3. cap. 6. which includeth a generall beleefe of those times that none but Communicants could be saued and therefore Austine vrgeth it as hotly as any other tradition that the Eucharist as well as Baptisme was necessary to the saluation of all euen of new borne babes wherof it cōmeth that the bread wine was then thrust into the mouthes of Infants and dead carkasses both in the Greeke and Latine Churches Forasmuch then as this place of Austine teacheth two points of generall doctrine one that prayers Sacrifices and almes doe profite the dead the other that none can bee saued but Communicants and so prayers and sacrifices and doles to bee made for no other we thinke our selues no more bound to receiue the one at Austines hand than Papists thinke themselues bound to receiue the other Furthermore these
remained euer from the beginning now if it be sayd that hee meaneth the Church vnder the Gospell Rom. 15.8 Heb. 2.3 it will trouble him to prooue that the Apostles were the first planters of that Church in Iudaea seeing Christ himselfe was minister of the circumcision and first began to preach saluation before it was confirmed by them that heard him Moreouer that the Church was euer dispersed through the whole world by the ministery of the Apostles is sooner said than prooued for though Paul say that the fall of the Iewes was the riches of the world yet doth hee not meane the whole world simply without exception no more than Saint Luke doth when he saith that Augustus Caesar decreed that all the world should bee taxed Luk. 2.1 Math. 28.19 Luk. 24.47 Mark 16.15 Act. 16.6 c. 2. Cor. 10.13 c. and so must wee vnderstand all Nations in Matthew and Luke and all the world and euerie creature in Saint Markes Gospell for though the words be generall and without limitation yet the Apostles were kept in and guided more particularly by the holy Ghost Lastly it would bee agreed vpon what faith or beleefe your Papist meaneth when hee saith Doe you beléeue the catholicke Church whether iustifying or historicall For though he seeme to fetch his question out of the Creed wherein the articles of iustifying faith are recorded and so to make the catholicke Church inuisible for faith is the euidence of thinges not seene Heb. 11.1 yet when hee addeth planted by the Apostles in Iudaea c. he maketh it visible and so not to be beleeued Wherefore though this first question haue neither head nor foot yet thus in charitie I conceiue of it that it demaundeth whether we beleeue historically that there were orderly Churches or companies professing catholicke doctrine taught by the Apostles first among the Iewes and then among the Gentiles which profession and professors shall continue in one place or other to the worlds end if this be the question then haue you answered catholiquely first that you beleeue this and then secondly that the Protestants onely are the visible and knowne members of Gods church Now where it is demaunded in the third and fourth place how wee knowe this whether by outward meanes or by inspiration it is answered that the canonicall word of God doth so testifie and better witnesse than this we desire none and touching this word of God the Papists graunt all those bookes to bee canonicall which wee call canonicall though they adde other Bookes which wee admit not for grounds and foundations of faith but if wee cannot make good our profession by those bookes which both sides agree vpon and by the same bookes ouerthrow all that the Papists hold against vs at this day then I for my part will soone yeeld to the Pope and craue absolution vpon my knees Nowe forsooth the discerning of these canonicall Scriptures is called into question and they must bee subiected to the infirmity of man howbeit your answere though it be true yet is it insufficient for howsoeuer the vniforme consent of antiquitie is not to be neglected yet as our Sauiour saith Ioh. 5.36 that he had greater witnesse than the witnesse of Iohn so hath the holy Scripture greater witnesse than the witnesse of the Fathers namely the puritie and incontrolled antiquitie of it the Maiestie of the stile the conformablenesse of the precepts thereof to the lawe of nature and diuers other outward meanes noted by Master Caluine in his Institutions Lib. 1. Cap. 8. otherwise it were hard to tell how the men of Beroea and other ancient Christians discerned the Scripture in the Apostles time and after Act. 17.11.12 before any one of the ancient Fathers was borne or had written a syllable and herehence it is easily gathered how vaine the sixt question is for traditions are not confirmed by such pregnant euidence as the Scriptures are but hange in the winde vppon the conceits of men which may be deceiued and therfore a Christian man may well beleeue the one though he neglect the other Rom. 1.16 Heb. 4.12 1. Cor. 2.4 1. Cor. 14.24.25 Luk. 24.32 the powerfull working of the word of God described by Saint Paul and the Author to the Hebrewes and the Disciples of Christ in Saint Lukes Gospell are sufficient witnesses to the soule that Traditions which haue not the same image and superscription may be refused as the commandements and doctrines of men The Dialogue Sectio II. PA. Do you not perceiue that by this description of the Church you haue giuen two mortall wounds vnto your owne cause first you haue excluded the Protestant and Puritane out of the Church by you described and secondly you thrust out all the ancient Fathers and Doctors that euer flourished in the Church since the Apostles time Pro. The wounds you speake of surely are not mortall for as yet I feele them not Pap. They will prooue sensible when they come to the searching first you haue excluded the Protestant and Puritane who hold many points of Doctrine not a These points are warrantable by Scripture as it shall appeare warranted by the Scriptures as the obseruation of the Sunday in stead of Saturday which was the Sabbath of the Iewes that Christians may eat bloud notwithstanding the decrée of the first generall Councell to the contrarie that a christian Magistrate may punish theft with death which in a Iewish Magistrate was a breach of the commaundement that it is a greater offence in a christian to haue Concubines and many wiues then it was in Dauid who notwithstanding was a man according to Gods owne heart that Christians should be tied vnto the law prescribed vnto the Iewes for marriage within degrées of affinitie and not vnto the like law prescribed to the brother to raise vp séede vnto his brother dying without issue For all which you haue no warrant out of the scriptures Pro. For all these points of Doctrine wee haue sufficient warrant out of the booke of God and first concerning the Sabbath of Christians it is euident in the 20. of the Acts that the Christians did assemble themselues the first day of the weeke to heare Paul preach and to breake bread likewise in the 16. Chapter of Saint Pauls 1. Epistle to the Corinths it appeareth that Saint Paul did ordaine in all the Churches of Galatia that collection should be made for the poore vpon the first day of the weeke where hee doth also exhort the Corinthians to doe the like vpon the same day whereby it is euident that the Sunday was appointed by the Apostles to be the Christians Sabbath which is nothing else but a day of rest from labour and a day to bee bestowed in hearing the word preached breaking of bread whereby is meant administration of the Sacrament giuing of almes and other workes of deuotion and pietie for proofe whereof out of the places aboue alleaged I doe draw this
vnto you than to seeke so ridiculously f It is better prooued than you can proue your Traditions to prooue it by testimonie of Scripture The ancient Catholickes as you haue heard did vse the g They might better doe it then than you now authoritie of Tradition for the conuincing of Heresies yet was there neuer any of those Heretickes that denyed the authoritie of Traditions because the Catholicks did not obserue all the Traditions which were left by the Apostles Saint Augustine in the place by me aboue alleaged where he saith That we ought to beleeue many things which are not contained in the writings of the Apostles nor in the councels of their Successors as Traditions deliuered by the Apostles because they are obserued through the vniuersall Church doth giue vs an infallible rule for the true discerning of those Traditions of the Apostles which we are bound to follow embrace of which sort is all the doctrine of the Catholicke which is not found in the written Scriptures and surely this is so certaine and direct h This rule cracks the crowne of Poperie a rule that it cannot deceiue or mislead vs for can we imagine that a i The Apostles planted no weeds but the enuious man that loued Poperie Mat. 13.25 wéede not planted by the Apostles should spring vp ouer-spread the vniuersall Church remaine and continue from age to age be deliuered from Bishop to Bishop that so many generall Councels in the meane time should be assembled for the extirpation of such Bastard plants and that so many Catholicke Doctors in the meane time should write against heresies and yet that such a wéede should still k Antichrist did worke in Pauls time and must work still till he bee abolished by the brightnes of Christs comming 2. Thes 2 7.8 remaine without checke or contradiction Contrariwise these Traditions deliuered by the Apostles which are nowe generally abolished through the vniuersall Church as the Apostles who were directed by the Spirite of God did first institute them for the benefite of that state of the Church wherein they were ordained euen so when times haue altered the state of the Church the Apostles Successors directed by the same Spirit l Had they no other direction but the Spirite take heed you bee not an Anabaptist haue altered or abolished them for the like benefit of the Church In the Apostles time when the Ceremonies of the lawe were lately abolished the Iewes and the Gentiles intermingled and people flocked together from all parts of the world to heare the doctrine of the Apostles and to see the miracles which God did worke by them the communitie of all thinges the prohibition of eating of blood and the office of widowes was profitable for that state of the Church and m A grosâ—e ouersight vniuersally practised but when that state of the Church was altered all those ordinances were altered with no lesse benefite of the Church than before they were obserued Pro. If the generall practise of the vniuersall Church be the rule wherby to discerne the Doctrine which we ought to obserue by the Tradition then is all your Doctrine which is not grounded vpon the Scriptures not warranted by your owne rule because it is not practised vniuersally for the contrarie is practised by the greater part of Christendome Pap. This rule was sufficient before Martin Luthers time for then was the Catholicke Religion n It was neuer vniuersall and it was hereticall both before and after Luthers time vniuersall and therefore I desire to learne of you how since that time the sufficiencie thereof should be impaired for if then it was a fault in Luther to dissent from the vniuersall Church how can the same doctrine which was naught in him be good in his Disciples Pro. The Greeke Church did celebrate the Feast of Easter vpon the 14. day of the month of March by Tradition of the Apostles the Latine Church did celebrate the same feast vpon the Sunday nexte following after the fourteenth day of the Moone of March if the said 14. day happened not vpon the Sunday by Tradition also the like difference was betweene them for the vse of leauened or vnleauened bread in the administration of the Sacrament eyther of them grounding their doctrine vpon the Tradition now if you will confesse that the Traditions of the Apostles were not contrary vnto themselues you see how vncertaine and dangerous it is to ground our faith vpon vnwritten Traditions Pa. a A paultry cauill The Lutherans and Caluinists hold contrary opinions either of them grounding his doctrine vpon the word of God will you thereupon conclude that it is a dangerous matter for vs to ground our faith vpon the worde of God Pro. The comparison is not alike for in the one case the question is whether of them hath the true Tradition and in the other whether of them doth rightly interpret the Scripture which both parties do agree to be the word of God Pa. If I had said how dangerous it is for euery man to ground his faith vpon b VVhy not his owne as well as another mans I must like it and so make it my owne before I can beleeue it his owne interpretation you had béene preuented of this answere but you doe mistake the matter in part for it appeareth by Epiphanius haeres 70. that this difference betwéene the Latine and Greeke Church concerning the celebration of Easter did grow vpon c As though the Apostles did not pract se it in their owne persons in both Churches but onely deliuer it by TraditioÌ„ the interpretation of the Tradition but the rule before mentioned prescribed by Saint Augustine for the discerning of those Traditions which wée are bound to imbrace and follow doth frée you from all this supposed danger for if the question be of such a point of doctrine which is not conteined in the word of God and yet notwithstanding is practised of some particular Churches people or nations but not vniuersally through the whole world such a point of doctrine wée are not bound by the said rule to receiue as a Tradition left by the Apostles yet notwithstanding if such a point of doctrine bée not contrary to the word of God those churches or countries where such doctrine is practised ought to receiue and reuerence the same as a doctrine left vnto them by their spirituall pastors and superintendents for their spirituall benefit concerning which you shall finde sufficient for your satisfaction in those aduertisements set downe by S. Bede which Pope Gregory sent vnto S. Austine the Monke for answere of this very question concerning the diuersitie of customes vsed in diuers nations in matters of Church gouernement But let it bee d You cannot chuse but graunt it granted that it was doubtfull for a time whether the Greeke or the Latine Church did obserue the right Tradition the like doubt and question c You can be
doctrine by the infalliblenesse of the outward senses 1. Iohn 1.1 saying that which we haue heard which wee haue seene with these our eies which wee haue looked vpon these hands haue handled of that word of life that I say which we haue seene and heard declare we vnto you not that you may be Heretickes and Atheists but that you may haue felloship with vs and that our fellowship may be with the father and with his sonne Iesus Christ Now touching humane reason I would gladly know whether our Papist haue framed his arguments with it or without it if with it let him take heede he be not an Hereticke or an Atheist if without it I doubt he shall hardly mooue either Hereticke or Catholicke to be of his opinion much lesse conuert Infidels It were strange doctrine to teach men neuer to vse the helpe of humane reason because Saint Paul saith Rom. 1 19. the wisedome of this world if foolishnesse for though the mysterie of our redemption in Christ Iesu be farre beyond the reach of mans wisedome yet the same Paul saith that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that you may be knowen concerning God is ingraffed in the heart of man whereby Gods eternall power and Godhead shining in his works is knowen vnto him and Peter Lumbard Lib. 3 dist 24. his owne Prophet saith Quaedā fide creduntur quae intelliguntur naturali ratione Something 's are beleeued by faith which are vnderstood by naturall reason But to make short worke Paul saith indeed that the naturall man perceiueth not the things of the spirit of God and God forbid we should denie it but yet the same Apostle presently after saith 1. Cor. 2.14 c. againe the spirituall man discerneth all things now let him shew vs that papists are spirituall men and Protestants naturall men and then we will vayle the bonnet of his insensible and vnreasonable assertions otherwise we may not become fooles and run mad at his pleasure Againe where he disputeth that an infidell may reiect the resurrection of the dead the mystery of the Trinitie the eternitie of the sonne of God the comming in of Christ in his naturall bodie to his disciples the doores being shut and such like Articles of our Christian faith as well as we may reiect the reall presence in the Sacrament you may see the pure simplicitie of this man who makes Christs entrance through a shut doore to be an Article of faith Howbeit his master of sentences findeth documents of the Trinitie in things created and Saint Austine saith Lib. 1. dist 3. De Trinitate lib. 6. cap. 20. Oportet vt creatorem per ea quae facta sunt intellecta conspicientes Trinitatem intelligamus It behooueth vs that we beholding in vnderstanding the creator by the things which were created should vnderstand the Trinitie Againe Tertullian hath written a booke De resurrectione carnis and Athenagoras a Christian Philosopher hath written another 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Of the resurrection of the dead Tertullian Athenagoras wherein this article of faith is soundly prooued by humane reason and it being a sure ground that God cannot be without his power and wisedome and that the father is Fons origo Deitatis as sol is fons origo lucis The fountaine and originall of the Godhead as the sunne is the fountaine and originall of light It will not be so hard to conceiue by reason that the son of God may be begotten yet coeternal with God his father but I shal not need to labor further in this point there is a Treatise written purposely of this argument by Philip Morney a noble man of Fraunce Phil. Morney wherin you may see how far reason may wade in these such like articles of Christianity therfore if an infidel flie to humane reason he shal haue some stay to leane vpō in matters of faith wheras neither he nor we nor any man els liuing can find any possibility of reason or sense to induce vs to beleue the real presence Howbeit he may do well to teach vs from what an infidell should appeale to the arbiterment of humane reason is it like that any man will presse an infidell with Scriptures Fathers Councels so to driue him to appeale to reason Paul saith that prophecying serueth not for infidels but for them which beleeue 1. Cor. 14.22 where the Apostle meaneth such infidels as be altogether strangers from Christian doctrine and must be won by signes not by prophecying as for Fathers Councels we may not prefer them to Paul and Peter in the conuersion of an infidell and besides that infidels will make more account of their own Prophets Epimenides Menander and Aratus Tit. 1.12 Plato Hesiode and Homer such like than of our Fathers and Councels yet notwithstanding if we should confesse that other matters of faith cannot be measured by humane reason without danger of heresie yet if you cleaue to his faith not to your owne reason in the reall presence you cannot choose but be an hereticke Dial 2. in con The Symboles or signes of the Lords bodie after the priest hath inuocated are charged made other shings and this doth Theodoret euidētly declare in one of his Dialogues where the hereticke saith Symbola dominici corporis sanguinis post inuocationē sacerdotis mutantur et alia fiunt And this he speakes of a substantial change as our Papists do at this day but the Catholicke answereth Signa mysticapost sanctificationem non recedunt à natura sua manent enim in priori substantia figura forma Thus hath Theodoret a learned and auncient father of the Greeke Church written almost 1200. yeeres agoe giuing cleerely to vnderstand that the doctrine of transubstantiation was not Catholicke in his time but hereticall what the Greeke Church thinketh of it at this day may better be learned by the last Session of the Councell of Florence than by the bold face of this Papist whose head is so full of vniforme consents and arguments of credibilitie Council Florent sess vltima that he forgets how many of the Euangelists speake of the Lords supper See then what ill lucke this poore man hath that both his vniforme consents faile him the one confuted by Theodoret and the Councell of Florence the other by Saint Iohns Gospel where you shall not finde one word spoken of the Sacrament all the foure Euangelists quoth he how I pray you in thought word or deed marry saith he in direct and plaine words Indeed the words of three Euangelists are direct and plaine against him but the fourth saith nothing Matthew Marke say that the Sacrament of Christs blood after consecration is the fruit of the vine Math. 26.29 Mar. 14.25 cap. 22 20. and Luke saith that the cup is the new Testament in his blood now if you vnderstand by the cup not wine but reall blood it will follow
for first as not to forgiue is as much to say as to punish so to forgiue is as much to say as not to punish in which sence there is forgiuenes in the world to come as well as in this world Secondly Saint Peter saith Act. 3.19 Amend you liues and turne that your sinnes may be done away when the time of refreshing shall come c. that is at the second comming of Christ to restore all thinges where wee learne that our sinnes are compleatly forgiuen till death sinne and hell be fully vanquished and discharged at the last day De Purg. lib. 2. Cap. 9. Lastly Bellarmine saith that Mali habitus in vita contracti are taken away per primum actum contrarium animae separatae that is to say a habite of ill doing which grew a long time by many bad actions De Purg. lib. 2. Cap. 2. 3. is cleane purged in a moment by one good deede and yet hee holds stiffely against Luther that soules departed can neither mereri nor demereri howbeit here we finde a taking away or forgiuenesse of sinnes in another world without scorching in purgatory by the good deedes of soules departed Now whether these deedes be merita or demerita or what other name it will please him to allow them some of his Popish friends may doe well to resolue vs. The Dialogue Sectio XIIII THus a You speake of more than you haue done or can doe haue I for proofe of this point of Catholicke Doctrine produced against you all the meanes that euer were deuised to conuince an heresie and on the other side you are put to all the shifts that euer hereticke deuised for defence of Heresie from the b The Doctors haue no authoritie or dominion ouer our faith authoritie of Doctors and Fathers and the continuall practise of the vniuersall Church you must appeale vnto Scriptures from Scriptures c VVe make no such appeale to the interpretation and from the interpretation of d VVe looke not to be saued by Ambrose Aug. and Gregories faith but by our owne Abak Cap. 2.4 Ambrose Austine and Gregorie the Great to the interpretation and deuise of your owne braine as vnto the supreame and onely sufficient Iudge of all controuersies So that I must either discontinue my suit or put the matter to comprimise and make your selfe sole arbitrator which if I should doe and could tell how to propound the case vnto you in such couert maner as the Prophet Nathan did to Dauid I would not doubt but to drawe from you the like sentence as Dauid pronounced against himselfe as for example if I should put your owne case vnto you thus masked and disguised in the habit of a case in law Iohn a Stile seazed of the Manor of Dale wherof he and his Auncestors haue béen quietly possessed time out of minde hath to shew for proofe of his title a record of the Tower dated the first of H. 1. whereby it appeareth that the Conquerour gaue this Land to one of his Auncestors to the same effect he hath also another like record of H. 2. and another of H. 3. Iohn a Noke claymeth an interest in this Land and alleageth for maintenance of his title thereunto that notwithstanding the sayd possession and records the Conqueror did giue no such Mannor vnto the Auncestors of Iohn a Stile and that without a Charter from the Conquerour to be shewed to that effect his interest is neuer the better A faire Charter is produced and acknowledged by the Plaintiffe but he desireth that the true and right interpretation of the words may be taken the interpretation concerning the true meaning and sense of the words deliuered by the reuerend Iudges in a like case long before this controuersie grew is shewed which ouer-ruleth the matter plainely with the Defendant The Plaintiffe replyeth that the Iudges like men did erre in their opinion and that himselfe and some other that claime like interest in the land can giue the right interpretation of the words whereunto he will referre the whole triall of his cause I pray you either tell me who is like to haue best interest to this land or giue mée an d Ye shall haue instaÌ„ces inow looke the answere instance where the cases doe differ The Testimonies of Epiphanius Chrysostome Austine Ambrose who e They affirme it not but you father it vpon them affirme that praier for the dead was a tradition of the Apostles are the records of the Tower the Scriptures the Charter of the Conqueror the interpretation of the sayd Doctors of the place of Saint Paul Cor. 3. the opinion of the Iudges deliuered for the explication of the true sense and meaning of the words of the Charter This case being agréed by our Counsell let it bée mooued at the Checker barre and let my f This should haue been omitted in coÌ„mon discretioÌ„ Lord chéefe Barons opinion therein be a finall end of the controuersie betwéen vs. The Answere HEre our popish Diuine will needs bee a Lawyer and therefore he puts cases against vs but his deuises and producements are too homely to controll a truth and to settle a mans faith and conscience We haue seen what those Fathers and Doctors say and we haue shewed him how vnable they are to beare the burden hee layeth vpon them and therfore he had need to deale couertly by masking and disguising if euer he looke to enioy his Mannor of Dale Howbeit the breake-necke of all is this the cases differ as may bee shewed by many instances First you haue not had quiet possession time out of minde for it was disturbed by Aerius and so along euen to the daies of Luther as Bellarmine confesseth in his Treatise of Purgatorie Secondly the Greeke Church was neuer seased of this mannor Vsque in hodiernum diem purgatorium non est à Graecis creditum Lib. 1. cap. 2. De haeres libr. 8. ca. 1. Euen till this day Purgatorie is not beleeued by the Grecians saith Alphonsus and so saith Roffensis in Polidore de inuentoribus rerum Thirdly the conqueror neuer gaue it by charter but it was taken rather from the paraclete of Mountanus as I shewed before out of Tertullian and so defended afterward by colour of charter Fourthly your Iohn a Stile hath no sufficient record to shew that prayer for the dead is a Tradition of the Apostles Fiftly if that record could be found and were graunted yet that which he claimeth by Charter from the Conquerour will not follow Lib. de fide etâ—per cap. 13. 16. ad Dulcit quaest 1. Esa 53.5 Rom. 8.1 Apoc. 14.13 Eccles 9.6 as hath bene seene alreadie Sixtly the Charter which is shewed is not faire but doubtfull and full of difficulties so saith Austine one of your own iudges Seuenthly there is a fairer Charter to the contrary in Esay Paul and Saint Iohn and Salomon saith plainely that the dead haue no part in the
sensibly to be handled by the Priests not onely in a sacrament but in trueth but to be broken and torne with teeth truely indeed but onely in a sacrament Your glosse sets the text vpon the racke violenlty drawes the members of it a sunder which are copulatiuely chained together in the text tractari frangi fidelium dentibus atteri distinguenda sunt quoth he alas euery child may see it cannot beare such a distinction and therefore either suffer your Popes text to stand still in force or else set downe plainely like honest meaning men that your Pope and his Councell haue grossely erred Howbeit the former part of the Popes words haue most need of a glosse for when he saith that bread and wine after consecration is not onely a sacrament but also the true body and blood of Christ if he meane the accidents they can be neither body nor blood if he meane the substance that 's vanished Lib. 4. dist 1◠if he meane substantia mutata in id quod facta est the substance changed into that which it is made that is in carnem sanguinem Christi Lib. 4 dist 11. Into the bodie and blood of Christ as Lumbard some where seemeth to tell vs then is it not both a sacrament and the true bodie and blood of Christ too but only one of them namely id quod facta est that whereinto it is changed and here you may smell Transubstantiation though it were not yet deuised but it stunke so that Lumbard himselfe could hardly abide it Ibid. for thus hee writes Si quaeritur qualis sit illa conuersio an formalis an substantialis vel alterius generis definire non sufficio If a man aske what manner of conuersion it is whether formall or substantiall or of some other kind I am not able to determine it Which is as much to say as I cannot tell whether the substance of bread be changed into the bodie of Christ or no for graunt me this antecedent substantia panis mutatur the substance of bread is changed the conclusion wil follow of necessitie ergo est substantialis mutatio a substantiall change so he that tels me that he cannot define whether the change of bread into flesh and wine into blood be substantiall tels me withall that he cannot define whether the substance of bread and wine be changed into the body and blood of Christ These be the colours and shewes and accidents that haue bewitched a great part of the world and these be the glosses and interpretations that haue caused men to runne mad and at length to sleepe in their owne excrements but if you looke into the ages before Berengarius you shall find such as did write openly against these Popish accidents and formes without subiect and against all vntoward glosses in defence of the sacramentarie heresie as heretickes now call it without all controlement or contradiction which is a maine euidence to perswade that these reall conuersions and transmutations which be defended so stoutly and peremptorily in Poperie are not Catholicke but hereticall Iohn Scotus a learned man venerable Beds scholler taught the same doctrine wee hold at this day Iohan. Scotus almost two hundred yeeres before Berengarius so did Bertram Bertram a famous man in his time as appeareth by his booke De corpore sanguine Dei written at the request of Charles the Great and Doctor Tonstall witnesseth Lib. 1. de Sacr. Euchar. that before Transubstantiation was concluded in the Counsell of Lateran it was lawfull for euerie man freely to thinke of it as he thought good and if this euidence be not stronge inough to carrie away the matter then would I faine learne how they dare stand against Pope Gelasius that tels them plainely that the substance and nature of bread and wine remaineth still Gelas contr Eutych Non desinit esse substantia panis natura vini There ceaseth not to bee the substance of bread and nature of wine They tell vs verie demurely that by vertue of Christs prayer Luk. 22 32. the Popes faith cannot faile and that hee is to confirme his brethren yet herein they make Gelasius faith to faile and vtterly refuse to bee confirmed by him yet was it not Gelasius owne priuate opinion De Sacram. li. 4. cap. 4. Dialog 1 2 Ambrose saith of the consecrated bread and wine Sunt quae erant in aliud commutantur They are the same they were and are changed into another thing Theodoret Signa mystica post sanctificationem non recedunt à natura sua manent enim in priori substantia figura forma The mysticall signes after sanctification do not depart from their owne nature for they remaine in their former substance figure and forme Chrysostome Ad Caesarium in Math. hom 15. Panis sanctificatus dignus est dominici corporis appellatione etsi natura panis in illo remanserit The sanctified bread is worthy the name of the Lords bodie although the nature of bread remaine in it Origen Ille cibus qui sanctificatur per verbum Dei per obsecrationem iuxta id quod habet materiale in ventrem abit in secessum encitur That meat which is sanctified by the word of God and by prayer according to that which is materiall in it goeth into the bellie and is cast out into the draught And if all these authorities be reiected yee shall they neuer bee able to auoide the words of our Sauiour Christ who after the ministration of the Sacrament in both kindes concludeth after this maner I say vnto you Math. 26 29. Mark 14 25. I will drinke no more of this fruit of the vine till I drinke it new in the Kingdome of God vnlesse they can make men beleeue that blood may be the fruit of a Vine Let vs now returne to the examination of the ancient Father which our Papist imagineth to bee raysed from the dead What if hee should say saith he that the verie bodie of Christ is present in the Sacrament in forme of bread Many then say I hee should lye for Chrysostome saith In oper imper in Math. hom 11. In vasis sanctificatis non est ipsum corpus Christi sed mysterium corporis eius continetur In the sanctified vessels is contained not the verie bodie of Christ but the mysterie of his bodie But forasmuch as it is heere confessed that if this Doctor raised from the dead should answere that the bread is called the bodie of Christ in a figuratiue sense and that in Sacraments the signe is many times called by the name of the thing signified he doth cleerely in so answering determine the controuersie on the Protestants side what should wee labour further it being too too manifest that the Fathers doe answere so in their Bookes extant at this day and that in as plaine manner as can be wished Qui seipsum vitem appellauit Dialog
the vngodlie wee aske we obtaine The Dialogue Sectio XXVII ANd here will I make and end referring that which hitherto hath béene spoken to your better censure and further consideration whereupon if you shall rest resolued that you haue rightly described the Church of Christ and that you are also a member of the same yet a No such matter it is but the vanitie of your conceit must you be inforced to graunt that all the ancient fathers before mentioned were hereticks and that so was also that vniuersall Church whereof they make mention so ofteÌ„ in their writings b Paul saith that Antichrist doth sit in the temple of God and therefore no maruel though his seat were alwayes in preparing in the Church wherin the said heretical and papisticall doctrine was taught and practised but let vs admit although it bée most false that there was in the world such a Church as you haue c VVe goe by truth not by imagination imagined for the first 300 yéeres next alter Christ and that these ancient fathers and doctors with their adherents did afterward ecclypse that cleare light of the Gospell which shined in those first 300. yéeres yet how can we imagine that the Church of Christ which was indowed with so many gifts of the holy Ghost and which euer flourished and increased most amidst the tortures of so many heathen Emperours could vpon d We doe not imagine so for the kingdome of Antichrist was not erected vpon a suddane but by lâ—tle and litle irremarkeably as weeds vse to grow among thâ— good coâ—ne a sudden be so vtterly quayled and extinguished by these hereticall doctors as that no member thereof should once take pen in hand in defence of the trueth against their heresies or how can we e VVho bids you imagine so but your Synagogue lay hidden til Antichrist was d sclosed 2. Thes 2.3 imagine that the Church of Christ should for the space of 1300. yéeres lie hidden in so secret corners of the world as that none of the said papisticall doctors who wrote against all those by the name of heretickes which helde any doctrine contrary to that which they f The ancient fathers neuer termed such as you be Catholicks nor your doctrine Catholicke termed Catholicke could heare of them or that in all that time no generall Councell who were gathered together from all parts of the world should receiue intelligence g No Chur h had any being then but ours onely of the being of your mathematicall Church professing christianity in so farre different a maner which if either any of the said doctors or any of those general Councels had done h Non sequitur we should haue heard of them in the Catalogue of heretickes or haue found their opinions condemned by some generall councels so soone as Aerius arose and denied prayer for the dead c. he was i Full simply and full little to your credit but single men such as Epiphanius was in this case haue no authoritie to dubbe heretickes confuted by Epiphanius and afterward by S. Austine when the reall presence was k It was impugned 200 nay 500. yeeres and odde before your Lateran councels first impugned the first authors thereof were condemned by the Councell of Laterane and so of other of your opinions as they sprang vp in latter yeeres but a Protestant religion such as is now established in England was neuer heard of in the world before king Edwards time neither hath that religion at this day any being in the world l A foule vntruth without either gaâ—d or welt but in England onely And Puritany such m They professe no such matter as professe to be of a church which holdeth no doctrine but such as is warranted by scripture neuer had nor yet hath any being in the world so that it is n This fellow seemes not to know what religion and Church is a religion and a church as yet in imagination onely for although Puritanes o you haue cause to loue them the better for in so doing they resemble you Papists doe violently and ridiculously wrest the scripture for proofe of euery point of their doctrine yet doe they hold many things not warranted by scripture as before I haue sufficiently prooued There was neuer heresie in the world but you shall reade when it first sprang vp how it grew and increased and when it was cut downe and withered away you shall neuer p you may read in Paul when it first sprang and when it shal be cut downe 2. Thes 2 7 8 reade when the catholicke religion first sprang it hath for these 1300. yéeres by q VVe confesse no such matter your own confession increased and florished it hath béene confirmed by infinite miracles and watered with the blood of millions of Martyrs and therefore the way that leadeth and directeth vnto the catholicke religion is r But by your leaue we must doubt of it or rather be out of doubt it is not no doubt the way whereof the Prophet Esay speaketh saying And there shall be a path and a way and it shall be called the holy way and it shall be to you so direct and plaine as fooles shall not be able to erre therein Contrariwise you shall Å¿ In the Bible reade when and where your doctrine first sprang vp who were the fathers thereof and it hath béene t The more to blame they that did it cut so oft as it hath reuiued so oft as any branch thereof hath sprung vp it hath béene confuted and condemned by generall Councels and is registred in the Catalogue of latter heresies you can shew no succession of bishops no myracles no u These be stale prattlements of no weight beseeming such vain ianglers martyrs nor name any one member of your Church before Iohn Caluin for although Wickliffe Husse and Luther with the Waldenses and certaine other condemned heretickes of Armenia and Grecia did iumpe with you in some of your opinions yet was none of them either Protestant or Puritane and so none of your Church and therefore the way that leadeth to your Church is not that direct and playne way whereof the Prophet speaketh but rather an inexplicable Labyrinth wherein there is x VVe haue the holy word of God to giue vs light and to guide vs cursed be he that lookes for better direction Amen no light no path no compasse or guide to direct your course The Answere HEere this man would make an end if hee could tell how but his conscience telling him that his discourses are weake and insufficient he would faine fortifie them with a little generall talke propounded and answered longe agoe Sect. 5. alibi and therefore though it be needlesse to keepe downe a dead Carkasse with any newe answere vnlesse hee could blowe life into it with some newe defence yet somewhat more would bee added in this place