God himselfe were hidde from so great a Prophet why may we not thinke that in the many mightie nations of Christendome there haue indeede beene many thousands more belonging to God then the eie of any man could discerne S. Augustin saith Aliquando in sola domo Noah Ecclesia erat â—â—l 128. in solo Lot domo eius Ecclesia erat in solo Enoch Ecclesia erat Sometimes the Church was onely in Noah his house sometime in Abraham alone sometime in Lot alone and his house sometime onely in Enoch Therefore neither a particular church is euer so visible as papists would make it wheÌ„ it lieth hidden sometimes in one house sometimes in one man Assuredly S. Augustin was farre from that opinion when he wrot thus â—nit Eccl. c3 c. 16. asch c. 14. Looke therefore howe Christ was knowen when he was vpon earth so is his Church namely by the worde not by the outwarde Pompe and shewe Shee cannot be hidde from those that still diligently seeke her in the scriptures where onely I say againe the certaine knowledge of her is to be found â—al 10. Neuerthelesse shee is compared by S. Augustin and many more to the moone which is often hidde and he acknowledgeth that shee may be so secret that the members know not one another Persecutions haue bin so great that the world sawe not for a long time together such an outward shewe â—â—g de bapâ—â— cont Doâ— l. 6. c. 4. as Popery speaketh of Dioclesian and Maximinian boasted that they had vtterly abolished the superstition of Christ as they call it and name of Christians The like diuelish boasting made Nero in his time where was then this visible face of the Church so glorious that notable place of the Apostle what shall we say to it They were tried by mockings Heb. 11.36 c. and scourgings yea moreouer by boÌ„des and imprisonment they were stoned they were hewen a sunder they were tempted they were slaine with the sword they wandred vp and downe in sheepe skinnes and in goat skins beeing destitute afflicted and tormented whoÌ„e the world was not worthy of they wandred in wildernesses and mountaines and dennes caues of the earth Were not these the childreÌ„ of God were not these the Church what outward pompe had these men in the worlde to mooue others ledde by such inducements to resort vnto them O folly therefore to dreame of any such thing Howe differeth it from that errour of the disciples exspecting an earthly kingdome of their master and worldly preferments for themselues That vision of the woman forced to flie into the wildernesse to avoide the rage of antichrist Apoc. 1â— doth it not convince my conscience that the Church is hidde sometimes from mens eies Howe can that Church be saide to flie into the wildernesse which hath alwaies a visible face a visible place a visible grace and glorie a great companie of fauourers might power authority c. were not Christ and his followers on earth the Church had they any such shewe Nay they were poore base and not regarded in comparison of the Scribes Pharisees high priests and that rabble You shall be hated of all men for my sake c saith our Sauiour of his Church and is this to be visible euer in the world in manner and forme now often mentioned who seeth not that it is farre from it And thus I hope I haue sufficiently cleared this first point that the Church is not alwaies visible as they meane visible which may suffice for answer to this vaine obiection of theirs as vtterly ouerthrowing the ground thereof yet I answere further first to their Church that no Romish Catholicke liuing and I pray you consider well what I say shall euer be able to prooue that there was any visible Church for fiue or sixe hundred yeares after Christ which maintained all or the cheife points of popery wherein they differ from vs. Then for our Church we truely affirme that it was long before Luther euen in the primitiue Church For we stand vpon this that we embrace and professe onely that doctrine which springeth as the water of life out of the sanctuarie that is out of the writings of the prophets and Apostles and therefore that our Church doth not differ saue that in degree of excellency from those famous churches planted and watered by the Apostles themselues which shall yet more manifestly appeare by the doctrine it selfe duly considered the main points whereof as hath been already touched in another place are these 1. Concerning the morall lawe of God comprised in tenne precepts that it is the perfect rule of righteousnes wherein we see as in a Christall glasse both what we should doe and what we doe not and howe farre short we are of that obedience which is required at our handes by god 2. The doctrine of repentance that finding of our selues transgressoures of Gods diuine lawe and guiltie of his wrath wee should in due humilitie and contrition of heart throwe downe our selues at the throne of his grace and in the anguish of our soules confesse our iniquities and rebellions against our selues and euerie man say with the poore Publican God be mercifull to me a sinner 3. The doctrine of faith that trauelling thus and groaning vnder the burden of our sinnes wee should goe vnto our Sauiour for ease comfort and refreshing that is that we should steadfastly beleeue that he died for our sinnes and rose againe for our iustification and eternall saluation â—om 4. 4. the doctrine of good workes and a godly life that we ought euer to bee carefull to abound in good workes and haue our conuersation in heauen 5. The doctrine of praier that we should in all our necessities call vpon God in the name of his sonne as our blessed Sauiour hath taught vs in the Gospell â—â—t 3. â—al 3. and especially that we should frequent the house of God by publike praier to speake vnto him and by his word to heare him speak vnto vs for instruction 6. The doctrine of the Sacraments Baptisme and the Lords supper 7. Lastly the twelve articles of our creede I beleeue in God c. These are the pillars and foundation of our religion yea the very soule and life of our Church and all of them founded grounded vpon the rocke Iesus Christ and his sacred word and without controuersie the very essence and beeing of all Churches that haue been euer or shall be to the ende of the world Wherefore when our aduersaries ask vs as they doe very often where was your church before Luther we may well answere as our Sauiour did in the Gospell by another question videlicet These points of doctrine before mentioned were they before Luthers time or no If they will ansvvere vs to this we vvill ansvver them yea they shall be forced to ansvver themselues that this doctrine is of god and from heauen and that there neuer vvanted some to professe
newe teachers haue possest you mightily you are so carried away with them that they are able to make you beleeue any thing Why tell me the crowe is white or the snowe is blacke S. Good Mother the Lord hath mooued your heart to heare me speake who am yours and of you If I speake amisse as you thinke and so as you cannot consent vnto me with me leaue we it both to the working power of a mighty God who in further time can giue further light and vnderstanding to his children that humbly craue it and are not lifted vp with an high hand to withstand his offered grace Onely according to this motherly loue that you haue began to shew me vouchsafe to here me still vpon what groundes I haue setled my selfe and with what proofe I am mooued to thinke as I doe M. Surely sonne I coulde not abide or indure to heare any other once speake of such a straunge thing as this but say you on what you list you are my childe S. I doe verely beleeue it seemeth most straunge to you and to many moe of your side to heare that your religion is newe and ours olde Yet I doubt not but to make it evidently apparent vnto you and all whosoeuer shall without preiudice duly consider my allegations and proofe But first I must interpret my selfe in a worde or two what I meane by your faith and religion I pray you therefore when I speake of your Romish religion thinke not that I meane the whole doctrine and all the articles of faith and religion taught and professed by the Papists but onely those points of doctrine wherein they differ from vs. For in generall they hold the doctrine of the lawe and tenne commandements as we doe sauing that they leaue out the second commandement which forbiddeth the worshipping of Idols and Images making two of the tenth they professe also the summe of the gospell at least in generalitie and in wordes to wit that Christ Iesus perfect God and perfect man hath wrought our full redemption and by the blood of his crosse and pretious death prrfect obedience hath deliuered vs from eternall death the fierch and euerlasting wrath of God the due desert of our transgressions and purchased for vs euerlasting peace and blisse they maintaine also and professe in wordes as we also doe the three creedes the Nicene the Athanasian and the Apostolike creede wherein is comprised the summe of our faith and the doctrine we professe they acknowledge that most excellent forme and paterne of prayer taught vs in the gospel by our Sauiour and vse it and many other good and godly prayers which we also vse euen all those vvelneere in our common liturgie except a very fevve for our most gratious Queene sauing that they vse theÌ„ in latin vve in english that all may vnderstand and say amen Wherefore vvhen I say that your religion is nevv meane not generally nor of the things before rehearsed but only in respect of certeÌ„ other articles and points of religion maintained by Romish catholikes as namely 1. that the traditioÌ„s of the church are of equall authority vviâ—h the vvorde of god to be embraced with like reuerence and deuotion 2. that the vulgar latin translation commonly called Hieromes is onely authenticall 3. that the imputation of Christs righteousnes and obedience to the faithfull is a fantasie without ground in Gods word 4. that the bread in the sacrament of the Eucharist transubstantiated into the body of Christ is to be adored 5. that the faithfull are able to keepe the whole lawe of God 6. that the Pope is Christs generall vicar vpon earth hauing absolute power to ratifie or disanull all manner of decrees and ordinances and to dispense with the expresse and moral precepts of God at his pleasure 7. That the whole Church without him can neither enact nor infringe any lawe ecclesiasticall nor interpret any scripture 8. that the holy scriptures ought not to be translated into any vulgar tongue or reade of the lay people 9. that the sacrament of the Lords supper is to be administred onely in bread and not in wine Quia sapor possit generate suspitionem quòd esset ibi â—inum least as the Sorbonists at Paris say the people should smell it to be wine and so doubt of transubstaÌ„tiatioÌ„ 10. that good works are meritorious and that by them we are iustified in the sight of God 11. that the soules of the faithfull dying before perfect repentance suffer the torments of purgatory 12. that prayers are to be made in an vnknowen tongue such like of al which and the rest wherein they disagree from vs I say they are newe and yesterday opinions in comparison of the faith which we hold consonant to the holy scriptures and those famous ancient creeds before mentioned And therefore now to proceede to the declaration of that which I haue vndertaken touching the noueltie of your faith Thus good Mother haue our men written at this day teach that it goeth not with Religion as it doth with the statutes of the realme iudgements at common law where the later is thought to be the better but in religion the first and eldest is best Therefore they euer remember that golden saying of Tertullian that is true which was first that is first which was from the beginning and that was from the beginning which was deliuered by the Apostles but our faith is that was deliuered by the Apostles yours is not therfore ours is froÌ„ the beginning and so first yours not and therefore later Now that ours is that which was deliuered by the Apostles they prooue it thus Another ancient father saith That which the Apostles preached and deliuered to the world by preaching Irenaeus they afterward by the will of God committed to writing that for euer it might be the foundation and ground of faith Wherevpon it followeth that which the Apostles preached is the old auncient Catholike and Apostolike saith but that which they haue written is that which they preached so saith this father therfore that which is written is the true auncient Catholike and Apostolike faith that is ours For as I haue saide we hold nothing as necessarie to salvation but that which is truly taught vs out of these written scriptures Therefore our faith is that which was deliuered by the Apostles your faith is not that which is written For your men wil not be tried by the scriptures onely as knowing that many things they hold haue no warrant there but haue deuised vnwritten traditions therefore yours is not that which was deliueeed by the Apostles and not the old faith but a late newe faith devised by men M VVhy that which was deliuered by tradition Tradition was deliuered by the Apostles as wel as that which they wrot S. True Mother if it could as soundly appeare vnto vs what they deliuered as it doth by their writings what they preached But
it publikly in all partes or the most of Christendome since the happy time of our blessed Sauiour and therefore that our Church hath alvvaies bin a visible state though not so stately as they boast of theirs to their ovvne shame if Saint Augustin may be iudge vvho calleth Rome in regard of this pompe and pride the Western Babylon the second Babylon another Babylon de cinit d 16. c. 17. l. 1 22.27 the daughter of the former Babylon the earthly citie Yet for their further satisfaction I further aske of them doe not they thēselues say they beleeue all these former points doe they not stand vpon it that they haue euer so professed Is there any thing in there religion of more moment and vveight or any other part of doctrine besides these absolutely necessarie to saluation vvhy then doe they aske vs vvhere and by vvhome this religion of ours vvas professed before Luthers time May vve not vvell and charitably affirme that it vvas professed in Fraunce Spaine and Italy yea in Rome euer since first Rome embraced the gospell preached by the Apostles Doubtlesse I am persvvaded that many thousands euen nowe in these countries where the popes keyes preuaile doe truely hold the 12. articles of the Apostles creede and Athanasius his creede which he calleth the Catholike faith with all the other points of doctrine set down before which if they doe holding the foūdation though they build vpon it woode hay 〈◊〉 3. or stubble that is some erroneous doctrine yet they are the true Church of God and shall be saued A pearle is a pearle though in an heape of dust wine is wine though mingled with water and wheate is wheate though couered with much chaffe and is not the mysterie of godlinesse whereof Paul speaketh god manifested in the flesh 〈◊〉 3. iustified in the spirit seene of Angels preached vnto the Gentils beleeued on in the world receiued vp in glorie still the mysterie of godlinesse and that trueth and sure foundation whereō the house of god is builded though matter vnsutable vnto it be laide vpon it yes verely And therefore seing the Church of Rome hath euer held the misterie of godlinesse though mingled with many dregs of mens inuentions I doubt not but God hath euer had a people amongst them and a true Church more then 7000. which haue not bowed the knee vnto Baal what we are to thinke of their leaders and teachers which indeed haue corrupted this doctrine with their owne leauen and endeauoured by all meanes to shut vp and obscure this mysterie is another question especially for those that haue done it wilfully and malitiously and died in that malice But of the rest thus we iudge and thus we answere that so many as truely holde and professe all the former articles of doctrine as I assure my selfe many doe are fellowe members with vs in the same mysticalll bodie whereof Christ is the head And therefore our church hath euer beene in theirs though not euer so manifest to the eye of the worlde as it was for the space of the first fiue hundred yeares Me thinkes this answere should well content them and fully satisfie them being so charitable towards them But to giue them an answere of their owne and by themselues to let them see that the true Church is not alwaies so visible as they pretende They knowe that nowe in England they haue not authoritie to countenance their religion and Church and yet they say that they haue a Church amongest vs and where they dare well say it they are bold to say it is a great one yea the greter part though I trust they shall neuer prooue it in that number Why then in persecution and when the Lord punisheth the vnthankefulnesse of men with taking awaie our publike and autorised assemblies may not we as well haue a church holding the true faith of Christ according to his word as they now a flocke cleauing to the Bishop of Rome M. Rome hath alwaies beene called the Mother Church and they doe ioyne with that Rome is not he mother Church S. Howe can Rome be the mother church when shee is later then those first churches of Hierusalem and Antioche Can a mother be yonger then her daughters or her daughters elder then their mother The very scriptures teach vs that all churches and euen Rome it selfe haue risen out of the Churche of Hierusalem Fou out of Sion shall his lavve come and the word from Hierusalem M. You answer me well that Rome cannot be the mother Church of al because other churches haue beene before her Neuertheles of this Church of England shee is rightly the mother because this land receiued the faith frō her first by Eleutherius the Pope and martir who sent Daminianus and Fugatius to teach it to the Britanes at the request of their king who was then Lucius and after by Gregory the great who sent Augustine and Melitus with other holy priests to teach our auncestours the english who then were planted here and had remooued the Brittaines into an other corner S. Deare mother all this you are taught and told by them who abuse gods people bought with his pretious blood But it hath beene answered truely that this can not be so For first Eleuth confesseth in his answer to king Lucius his message that he had the scriptures wherin were the lawes of God farre more to be regarded then the Romane lawes he praiseth his zeale and telleth him that out of the scriptures with the aduise of his counsell he might draw conuenient lawes for his kingdome he beeing in his owne land Christs vicar c. Howe then was Eleutherius his first Apostle Againe doth not Nicephorus plainely saie in his story Simō Zelotes doctrinam Evangelij ad occidentalium Oceanum in sulasque Brittanicas perfert Lib. 2. c. 40 Simon Zelotes carried the doctrine of the gospell vnto the west Ocean sea and vnto the Islandes of Britraine This was before Eleutherius Doe not others write that Ioseph of Arimathea did it hat S. Paul in his passage this way into Spain did it and alleadge authors for it Might not the Greekes doe it or some others since euidently it appeareth by Eleutherius his own cōfession he was not the first Then for Augustine and the rest doe not these plaine testimonies of the fathers vsually alleadged to this end satisfie any man liuing not way warde that this land had the faith before him and them Tertullian liued about the yeare of our Lord 210. And his words are these Brittannorum in accessa Romanis loc a subduntur Christo 〈◊〉 Iudaeos The countries of Britane which the Romanes coulde never attaine vnto are now subiect to Christ Origen about the yeare 212 writeth Ezech. hom Terra Brittanniae in religionem Christi consensit The land of Britane hath yeelded to Christ his religion ◠Apolog. 2. Athanasius about the yeare three hundred thirtie foure hath the like
vnto his feete and a light vnto his pathes So shall conscience be a sure guide and he reforme himselfe by true obedience both to God and man Otherwise as I haue saide what we call conscience is but a fancie a conceit and a false erroneous perswasion such as if we still will follow against God against prince against countrie and all that euer any gouernours or friendes can say vnto vs the daie will come when wee shall feele with woe the punishment of such obstinacy and true conscience shall witnesse the want of conscience in so proudly disobeying all good perswasions which God forbid in his great mercy and turne our hearts in time vnto his trueth M. But I take it there is a plaine scripture that who so doth a thing which in his heart he thinketh he should not doe committeth deadly sinne because he doth against his own conscience or against his owne pretensed knowledge S. Good mother the scripture you mean as I conceiue is written in the 14 chapter of the Epistle to the Romans where the blessed Apostle saith He that doubteth is condemned if he eate because he eateth not of faith and what soeuer is not of faith is sinne Which place little helpeth any popish ignorance or stubburne wilfullnesse but is greatly by Romish Catholickes abused and wrested as other scriptures to serue for their way wardnesse Concerning which text thus haue our men truely and godlily answered long agoe and often first that the Apostle speaketh there of a particular and certaine matter papists applying these wordes generally to whatsoeuer they doe contrary to their erroneous conscience or pretensed knowledge 2. that the particular matter which the Apostle speaketh of is a thing indiffereÌ„t wheras Papists apply the wordes to things simply good and simply euill saying the former may be left vndone if my erring conscience be against it the later done without sinne if my pretensed knowledge lead me to it 3. That the things which the Apostle speaketh of were such as God himselfe was author of in his lawe as distinction of meate and daies which whilst the Iewes wonne to the Gospel did in those daies retaine though they did it ignorantly not knowing the libertie of the Gospell yet till they might be fully perswaded therein by faith which is grounded on doctrine and on the word they were bound to keepe by the commandement of God himselfe 4. That the manner and end of the Apostles bearing is not to nourish errour or to harden such an one in his opinion and doing but by patience to drawe him to trueth in the ende which manner of tolerance the Apostle calleth edification vers 19. and chap. 15.2 Lastly the Apostle speaketh not of Gentiles infidels nor of stubburn Christians but of a brother a faithfull man and one that hath receiued and embraced the profession of the Gospell but is weake through ignorance of some one point pertaining to Christian liberty in the outward vse of Gods creatures wherein he is not throughly perswaded of instructed of bearing with such an one by those whome God hath called to more plentifull knowledge of his heauenly trueth speaketh he All which things duly considered the true sence of the place appeareth thus namely that the faithfull for his particular regard beeing in doubt or lacking the full perswasion of faith which is giuen by measure and hath his time of groweth and increasing cannot without danger and therefore ought not attempt to do that wherein he is not already by the word of God and faith fully and throughly resolued But mark this double caution first that his absteining from the outward action be without danger of offence and scandall secondly that he stand not stiffâ—ly in his owne opinion flattering himselfe therein but ready vpon further instruction and knowledge to grow forward and to profit yea desirous also of such instruction and whatsoeuer other meanes may help to the better informing of his conscieÌ„ce in that behalfe whereby he may both clearely see the thing doubted of to the good holy and lawfull do the same with all sincerity faithfullnes M. But what if without daÌ„ger of offending God and prince I caÌ„not abstaine from the outward action and yet doubt in my selfe S. Your obedience beeing due it lesse offendeth to commit one fault then two that is to doe what you ought though doubtingly then both do doubt and disobey The doubting is a fault the obedience is none Amend what is euill by better instruction withdraw not what is good and due by all right He is condemned saith the Apostle if he eate not because he eteth but because he eateth not of faith In a lawefull action therefore it is not the deed which offendeth but the doubting that is not the matter but the manner performe obedience with a single heart and God in meane shall blesse it with true resolution M. Doth not then an erroneous conscience binde S. It may be borne withall for a time in charitable regard of weakenesse and in hope of better instruction but God forbidde that it should still binde and bee a couer or excuse for wilfull waywarde and malitious disobedience 2. Thes 2. 1. Tim. 4. For then to bee giuen ouer to a strong delusion to beleeue lies is not such a iudgement as the Apostle maketh it neither yet to haue the conscience feared with an hotte iron 2. Tim. 1.19 It is not right which the Apostle teacheth that vpon the putting away of a good conscience their followeth any shipwracke of faith or that the wicked haue their very mindes and consciences defiled 1. Tit. 1. For if the colour of such a conscience binde excuse and saue harmeles how is it defiled can that which is defiled it selfe make cleane any action But ô miserable doctrine that false reason should be made a guide to will and we bound to followe so blinde a guide The very heathen philosophers were not so madde For they talke of recta ratio and of mens sana in corpore sano of right and true reason and of a sound minde in a sounde body c. A Iewe sinneth mortally say these Catholike teachers if coÌ„â—ratrary to his pretensed knowledge or against his erroneous conscience he acknowledge in Trinitie Iesus Christ the second person yea the Iewes had sinned mortally if they had not crucified Christ according to their erring consciences Againe to beleeue in Christ if false reason propound it as euill is euill yea to worship the deuill beeing deceiued by the same reason is not onely not a sinne but a good worke O Catholike doctrine Then for the second table if a man leauing his wife and going into another countrie marry another and after repenting himselfe would leaue her affirming his former wife to be aliue and the Church suffer him not beeing ignorant of the trueth of that his assertion although this latter marriage bee nought and the man consequently an adulterer Deare mother marke this stuffe the