their Deputation or as they term it their Envoy had not this Clause of Submission The Churches were difficultly brought to make an Oath so little agreeable to the Doctrin they were inspir'd with and to swear against the Principles of the new Reformation such a Submission to an Assembly which after all whatever Name might be given it was but an Assembly of Men still according to their Principles liable to mistake but they must pass through it They said they did nothing if they did not at last oblige men to an absolute Submission and that to leave them liberty to examin after the last and final Resolution was to nourish Pride Dissention and Schism Thus against the Principles of the new Reformation were they fain to give other Idea's and 't was resolv'd to stick unalterably to the Submission and Oath in the Terms we have observ'd The Reason us'd by the Synod of Rochel to oblige the Provinces to this Clause of Submission to such things as should be resolv'd in the National Synod is That 't was necessary to the Validity of the Assemblies Conclusions In the general to render the Acts of an Assembly valid 't would be sufficient for those of whom it should be compos'd to have a Power of bringing to it the Suffrages of those that send them and the Deputies as well of the Colloquies as of the Provincial Synods came always furnisht with such Powers But there was something more strong requir'd for the National Synod and since the last Resolution was to be made to render such an Act valid and give it all its force 't was thought necessary it should be preceded by a Submission as absolute as the Resolution ought to appear irrevocable To this Decision of the Synod of Rochel that of Tonneins added Ibid. That the Submission should be promis'd in proper terms to all that should be concluded and decreed WITHOVT CONDITION AND MODIFICATION Now this is nothing but a Clause of Civility and a conditional Promise that might be made if they would not only to the Provincial Synods to the Colloquy and Consistory but also to every particular Minister Nevertheless they neither make it to these particular Ministers nor to this Consistory nor to these Colloquies nor to these Provincial Synods why so but to reserve something peculiar and proper to the Assembly where the final Resolution is to be made after which there remains nothing but to obey But if all that is here particular and proper be at the bottom only Words was this worth employing the Churches of the new Reformation and five or six of their National Synods This is what they ought to explicate if they would say any thing yet they speak not one word of it thô this Difficulty flies as one may say in their faces and that I have started it expresly In fine To reduce my Argument in few words every Oath ought to be founded on a certain and known Truth Now this Promise made to the National Synod and confirm'd by the solemn Oath of all the Pretended Reformed Churches We swear and promise to follow your Decisions being perswaded that you will judge well this Promise I say which way soever it be turn'd has no Certainty but in one of these two Senses The first We swear and promise to follow your Decisions if we find you judge well a thing indeed very certain but at the same time illusory since there is no person on the earth to whom one may not say as much and as I observ'd in the Conference Mr. Claude may say it to me as well as I to him The Second We are so perswaded you will judge well that we swear and promise to follow your Decisions in which Case the Oath is false if we are not throughly assur'd that the Assembly 't is made to cannot judge amiss All the Pretended Reformed have now to do is to choose which they will of these two Senses one of which is a manifest Illusion and the other which seems also the only natural Sense clearly supposes the Churches Infallibility Nor must they answer here That this Submission respects only publick Order and Discipline for in matter of Faith a Decision obliges to nothing less than what the Apostle St. Paul says Rom. 10. 10. To believe with the Heart and confess with the Mouth And our Reformed themselves understand it so when they declare in their Discipline That the Effect of this their National Synods last and final Decision is Vid. sup p. 13. That it may be acquiesc'd in from point to point with an express disowning of the contrary Doctrin He then who swears to submit to a Decision that shall be made in an Assembly swears to believe with his Heart and confess with his Mouth the Doctrin which shall be there decided But for the making this Promise and confirming it with an Oath 't is requisite the Assembly 't is made to should have a Divine Promise of being assisted by the Holy Ghost which is That it should be infallible Mr. Claude insinuated in the Conference That there was in effect a Divine Promise That those who sought should find and that the Oath of his Churches might have its foundation in this Assurance But he will never by this Answer get out of the Difficulty he is in For to render the Oath conformable to the Promise it must be conditional as the Promise is and as JESUS CHRIST said If you search well you shall find the sense of the Oath should also be If you do your Duty we will believe you which would be to fall again into the pitiful Illusion we have rejected To the end then the Oath we treat of may be made without rashness it must be founded on an absolute Promise from GOD on a Promise which secures us even against the Infidelities of men such as JESUS CHRIST makes his Church when he indefinitly and absolutely assures her Mat. 16. v. 18. That the 〈◊〉 of Hell shall not prevail against her As long as our Reformed shall persist in denying That the Authority of the Churches Decisions is founded on this Promise their Oath will be always an Illusion or a manifest Rashness and they will find themselves forc't either to defer more than they are willing to the Churches Authority or to acknowledge That they have by magnificent words impos'd on the Peoples Credulity since that after having distinguisht the Churches last Decision from all the rest by so remarkable a Character and so particular a Protestation of Submission 't will be found in the bottom That this Submission confirm'd by so singular an Oath is of no other Nature or Kind than what is naturally due to all Ecclesiastical Assemblies and every lawful Pastor that is one may always proceed from it to new Doubts and still examin after the last Resolution as after all the rest 'T is thus indeed according to the Principles of the new Reformation but the Principles of the new
however it is and without disputing any farther since this is no place for it we have shewn that 't is a Doctrin acknowledg'd in the new Reformation That every particular Person ought to examin after the Church and consequently ought to believe That he may happen to understand the Scripture better than she and all her Assemblies Those that abhor this Presumption or that upon Examination find not in themselves this false Capacity have no more to do but to seek their Salvation in another Church than that in which so prodigious a Doctrin is profess'd The Third REFLECTION On another Proposition acknowledg'd by Mr. Claude in the Conference An Explication of the manner of Instructing Christians and That the Churches infallible â—â—thority is necessary for the knowing and understanding of Scripture THE second Absurdity I promis'd to make Mr. Claude and every good Protestant avow is That unless there be acknowledg'd in the Church an Authority after which there must be no more examining nor doubting there is a Necessity of setting a Point of time in which the Believer at the Age of Reason cannot make an Act of Faith upon the Scripture and in which consequently he must doubt whether it be true or false I assign'd for this Point of Doubt all the time in which a Christian for what cause soever has not read the Holy Scripture Mr. Claude here cries out against so detestable a Proposition and I persist to say That he not only own'd it in the Conference but also that in what manner soever he here endeavours to turn things he has not been able to do it so well but that he still confesses it in the Relation In truth this is one of the Places in which I least remember our exact Words But there is still enough to convince him since if this Relation becomes publick every one will see he here acknowledges in formal Terms That he who has not yet read the Holy Scripture believes it to be GODs Word with human Faith because his Father told him so which is the State of a Catechumen and when he has himself read this Book and felt the Efficacy of it he believes it to be GODs Word no longer with an human Faith because his Father told him so but with a divine Faith because he has himself immediatly felt its Divinity and this is the State of a Believer 'T is then true that he has acknowledg'd the Time I undertook to shew when a Baptiz'd Christian is not in a Condition to make an Act of Supernatural and Divine Faith upon the Holy Scripture since he believes it to be GODs Word only by an human Faith and divine Faith cannot come till after the reading of it In what manner soever he turns this human Faith 't is an horrible thing that a Baptiz'd Christian at the Age of Reason cannot make upon the Scripture an Act of that Faith by which we are Christians For thence it follows That a Christian at his first going to read the holy Scripture ought neither to be inclin'd of himself or induc'd by any other to say at opening it I believe as I believe that GOD is that the Scripture I am going to read is his Word On the contrary they must make him say I am going to examin whether henceforth during the rest of my life I ought to read this Scripture with such a Faith 'T is to overthrow the whole Order of Instruction 't is to lose the Fruit of Baptism 't is to reduce Baptiz'd Christians to instruct their Children as if they were not so and that they were yet to deliberate of what Religion they should be And what Mr. Claude says concerning the Scripture the same he must say on the Faith of the Trinity on that of the Incarnation on that of JESVS CHRISTs Mission and the Redemption of Mankind For that which forces Mr. Claude and every Protestant to say That the Believer who has not read the holy Scripture can believe it only with an human Faith to be inspir'd by GOD is That otherwise they must acknowledg an Act of Divine Faith on the Churches sole Authority Which would be to own this Authority as infallible and ruin the very Foundations of all the new Reformation But the same Argument returns upon all the Articles of our Faith and if the Faithful can believe with a divine Faith both the Trinity and the Incarnation and Mission of JESVS CHRIST on the sole Authority of the Church and before he has read the holy Scripture I shall always conclude with equal Certainty That the Churches Authority will be infallible By the Consequence then of Mr. Claude's and all the Protestants Principle we must in reducing the Christians who go to read the holy Scripture to a bare human Faith concerning this Scripture reduce them at the same time to the like on the most Essential Articles of our belief This was not the Method of our Forefathers they did not thus teach Christians to instruct their Children When they baptiz'd them in their Infancy they said in that young Age Credo I believe No matter thô our Reformers have chang'd this Form 't was us'd in the very first Ages and will be always holy and venerable maugre all they can do But this Form us'd towards Children shews us that when they shall have the use of Reason they must be immediatly taught to make an Act of Faith and time must not be lost in exciting them to it They will then be capable of it they may say the same Creed they should have said if they had been baptiz'd at the Age of Understanding and to reduce them to a Faith barely human is to take from them the Grace of their Baptism and justify the Practice as well as the Doctrin of the Anabaptists And I conjure the Gentlemen of the Pretended Reformed Religion not to believe that I alledge here the Anabaptists by way of exaggeration or to render them odious these manners are not beseeming Christians I am ready to make good that the Doctrin taught here by Mr. Claude and which all Protestants must teach with him introduces Anabaptism For if the Acts of divine Faith must be held in suspense till such time as one has read the holy Scripture and be instructed by himself if all the Acts that precede this Instruction are not Acts of Christians since they have for their foundation only an human Faith for the same reason Bapâ—â—â— must be deferr'd till that time and we must not make Christians that at the Age of Reason are uncapable to produce Acts of their Religion The Fourth REFLECTION On Mr. Claude's objecting the same Difficulty to us about the Church as we do to him about the Scripture 'T IS in vain for Mr. Claude to answer us That he will make us the same Argument for the Church as we make him for the Scripture for to do this as we shew him a point of time which even at the use of Reason necessarily precedes
Conference an Explication of the manner of instructing Christians and that the Churches infallible Authority is necessary for the knowing and understanding the Scripture p. 73 Fourth Reflexion on Mr. Claude's objecting the same Difficulty to us about the Church as we do to him about the Scripture p. 76 Fifth Reflexion on Mr. Claude's alledging here the Practice of the Greek Church and the like which is only to embroil the matter and not to resolve the Difficulty p. 78 Sixth Reflexion on Mr. Claude's reducing as much as he can this Dispute to the Instruction of Children p. 82 Seventh Reflexion on Mr. Claude's saying in his Relation that I appear'd embarrass'd in this part of the Dispute p. 86 Eighth Reflexion on another Proposition acknowledg'd by Mr. Claude in the Conference where is shewn the manner how all false Churches have been establisht p. 88 Ninth Reflexion on the Churches Visibility that Mr. Claude opposes not the Doctrin I have explain'd till he has first fram'd himself a false Idea of it p. 91 Tenth Reflexion on the Pretended Reformeds Confession of Faith that it acknowledges no Church but what is visible and that Mr. Claude satisfies not this Difficulty p. 95 Eleventh Reflexion on Mr. Claude's own acknowledgment of the Churches perpetual Visibility the surprizing Doctrin of this Minister p. 99. Twelfth Reflexion Two of Mr. Claude's principal Objections resolv'd by his Doctrin p. 104 Thirteenth and last Reflexion Mr. Claude's Doctrin shews the Gentlemen of the Pretended Reformed Religion that there is no Salvation for them but in the Roman Church p. 107 A CONFERENCE WITH M r. CLAU DE Minister of CHARENTON Concerning the AUTHORITY of the CHURCH MADEMOISELLE de DURAS I. The Preparation to the Conference and particular Instruction being in some Doubt about her Religion caus'd me to be ask'd by several Persons of Quality Whether I were willing to Confer with Mr. Claude in her Presence I answer'd I should very readily do it if I saw that such a Conference were necessary for her Salvation She afterwards by the Duke of Richelieu invited me to be at Paris on Tuesday the last of February 1678. and to enter into Conference the next day with this Minister on the Subject she would speak to me about This was to intimate to me that she was willing to see me before the Conference Being with her on the Day appointed she acquainted me That the Point she desir'd to have clear'd with her Minister was that of the Churches Authority which seem'd to her to include the whole Controversy She appear'd to me not likely to come to a Resolution without this Conference so that I judg'd it absolutely necessary I told her she had indeed great Reason to lay her principal and whole Stress on this Article which in effect compreheâ—â—ded the Decision of all the rest as she herself had well observ'd and endeavour'd to make her yet fuller understand the Importance of this Article 'T is a thing said I to her ordinary enough with your Ministers to brag That they cannot be deny'd to believe the Fundamentals of the Faith They say that we believe all they believe but that they believe not all we believe Their Meaning by this is That they have kept all the Fundamentals of the Faith and rejected only what we have added to them They draw thence a great Advantage and pretend that their Doctrine is secure and indisputable Mademoiselle de Duras remembred very well she had often heard them use such Discourses I will make proceeded I but one Remark upon this which is that instead of granting them to believe all the Fundamentals of the Faith we shew that there is one Article of the Creed they believe not which is that of the Universal Church 'T is true they say with the Mouth I believe the Catholic or Universal Church as the Arians Macedonians and Socinians say with the Mouth I believe in JESVS CHRIST and in the Holy Ghost But as there is reason to accuse them of not believing these Articles because they believe them not as they ought nor according to their true Sense so if we shew the Pretended Reformed that they believe not as they ought the Article of the Catholic Church we may truly say that in effect they reject so important â—an Article of the Creed Mademoiselle de Duras had read my Treatise of the Exposition and told me she remembred that she had seen something in it like to what I now said but I answer'd my Intention in that Treatise was to mention things very briefly and that 't was fit she should now see them a little more at large You must know then said I to her what is meant by this Expression The Catholic or Universal Church and upon this I began to lay for my Ground that in the Creed which was only a bare Declaration of the Faith this Term must be taken in its most proper and most natural Signification and such as is most used amongst Christians Now all Christians by the Name of the Church understand a Society making Profession to believe the Doctrine of JESVS CHRIST and govern it self by his Word If this Society makes this Profession 't is consequently visible That this was the proper and genuine Signification of the Word Church such as was known by every one and us'd in common Discourse I desired no other Witnesses than the Pretended Reformed themselves When they speak of their Ecclesiastical Prayers of the Churches Discipline of the Churches Faith of the Pastors and Doctors of the Church they mean not the Prayers of the Predestinate nor their Discipline nor their Faith but the Prayers Faith and Discipline of all the Faithful assembled in the exterior Society of GODs People When they say That a Man edifies the Church or that he scandalizes the Church that they receive one into the Church or exclude one out of the Church all this is undoubtedly understood of the exterior Society of GODs People Thus they explain it in the form of Baptism when they say that they are going to receive the Child into the Fellowship of the Christian Church and when for this cause they oblige the Godfathers and Godmothers to instruct the little one in the Doctrin received by GOD's People as it is say they summarily compris'd in the Confession of Faith which we all have And again when they ask of GOD in their Ecclesiastical Prayers to deliver all his Churches from the Throat of the ravening Wolves And yet more expresly in the Confession of Faith Article XXV when they say That the Order of the Church which was established by JESVS CHRIST must be sacred and therefore that the Church cannot subsist if there be not in it Pastors who may have the charge to Teach And in Article XXVI That none ought to drâ—â— aside but that all together ought to keep and maintain the Vnity of the Church submitting to the common Instruction And in fine in Article XXVII That we must
CHRIST would have her alwaies visibly subsist he has cloth'd her with sensible Marks which are always to continue For see how he sends his Apostles and what he says to 'em at his ascending into Heaven Go ye therefore and teach all Nations Matt. xxviii v. 19 20. baptizing them in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you And lo I am with you alway even unto the end of the World Teaching with you baptizing with you instructing with you my Faithful to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded consequently exercising with you in my Church an exterior Ministery 'T is with you 'T is with those who shall succeed you 'T is with the Society assembled under their Conduct that I shall be from this present even to the Consummation of the World alway without Interruption For there shall not be any one Moment in which I will leave you but thô absent in Body I will be always present by my Holy Spirit In Consequence of this Word St. Paul also tells us that the Ecclesiastical Ministery shall last without any Discontinuance till the general Resurrection He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all Heavens Eph. iv v. 10 11 12 13. that he might fill all things And he gave some Apostles and some Prophets and some Evangelists and some Pastors and Teachers for the perfecting of the Saints for the Work of the Ministry for the Edifying of the Body of CHRIST Till we all come in the Vnity of the Faith and of the Knowledge of the Son of GOD unto a perfect Man unto the measure of the Stature of the fulness of CHRIST That is to say till we have attain'd the Perfection of JESUS CHRIST glorify'd in Body and Soul This is the Term which GOD has set to the Ecclesiastical Ministery The Pretended Reformed will not have the visible Church to be that which is call'd JESUS CHRISTs Body Which is then that Body where GOD has establish'd some Apostles some Prophets and some Pastors and Teachers Which is that Body where GOD has plac'd several Members and different Graces Rom. xii v. 4 c. The Grace of Ministery the Grace of Teaching the Grace of Exhortation and Consolation the Grace of Ruling Which I say is that Body if it be not the visible Church But that which makes the Pretended Reformed unwilling to acknowledge that the Body of JESUS CHRIST so much recommended in the Scripture can be the visible Church is their being constrain'd to say that the visible Church sometimes ceases to be upon the Earth and they have an Horror to say that JESUS CHRISTs Body is not always for fear of putting JESUS CHRIST once again to death 'T is then without Difficulty this Assembly of Pastors and People 't is this Church compos'd of so many divers Members by whom so many Holy Ministeries are exteriorly exercis'd 't is this that is called JESUS CHRISTs Body 't was to this Body assembled under the Ministery of Pastors that he said at his ascending into Heaven Lo I am with you alway even unto the end of the World He then that descended is the same that ascended to the end he might fill all things Heaven by his Person and his visible Presence Earth by his Spirit and his invisible Assistance both the one and the other by his Truth and his Word And 't was for to continue at his ascent into Heaven this Assistance promis'd to his Church that he plac'd some Apostles some Evangelists and some Pastors and Teachers A thing which must last till such time as the Work of GOD is entirely accomplish'd till we are all perfect Men and till the whole Body of the Church be arriv'd at the Fulness and Perfection of JESUS CHRIST Thus JESUS CHRISTs Work is eternal on the Earth The Church founded on the Confession of the Faith shall always be and always confess the Faith Her Ministery shall be eternal She shall bind and loose even to the end of the World Hell never being able to hinder her she shall never discontinue the Teaching of Nations The Sacraments that is the exterior Liveries with which she is clad shall last for ever Teach and baptize the Nations 1. Cor. xi v. 26. and I shall be alway with you As often as ye eat this Bread and drink this Cup ye do shew the Lords Death till he come With the Supper shall last the Confession of the Faith the Ecclesiastical Ministery and the exterior and interior Communion of the Faithful with JESUS CHRIST and of the Faithful amongst themselves till such time as JESUS CHRIST comes The duration of the Church and of the Ecclesiastical Ministery has no other Limits 'T is not then only the Society of the Predestinate that shall subsist for ever 't is the visible Body in which the Predestinate are included which preaches to them which teaches them which regenerates them by Baptism which nourishes them by the Eucharist which administers to them the Keys which governs them and keeps them united under Discipline which forms JESUS CHRIST in them 'T is this visible Body that shall subsist for ever And 't is for this reason that in the Apostles Creed where the Grounds of the Faith are propos'd to our Belief we are at the same time taught to believe in the Father and in the Son and in the Holy Ghost and to believe the Holy Catholic Church and the Communion of Saints The interior Communion by Charity and in the Holy Ghost who animates us I acknowledge it but at the same time also the exterior Communion in the Sacraments in the Confession of Faith and in all the exterior Ministery of the Church And all that we have now said is included in this Word I believe the Vniversal Church We believe her at all times she is then always We believe her at all times she always then teaches the Truth Your Ministers will have us believe that 't is one thing to believe the Church that is to believe that she is and another thing to believe or give credit to the Church that is to believe all her Decisions But this is a frivolous Distinction He who believes that the Church always is believes that she is always confessing and teaching the Truth 'T is to this Church which confesses the Truth that JESUS CHRIST has promis'd Hell shall not prevail against her The Truth then shall never fail to be confess'd in her and consequently in believing that she is we are assur'd that she is always credible In effect the retaining some Points of JESUS CHRIST's Doctrine is not sufficient to preserve the Name of Church For then the Arians the Pelagians the Donatists the Anabaptists and the Socinians would be of the Church They are not however GOD forbid that we should call this Confusion by the Name of Church The Church must not then only keep
some Truth She must keep and teach all Truth else she is not the Church Nor is it to any purpose to distinguish the fundamental Articles from the others For all that GOD has reveal'd must be retain'd He has reveal'd nothing to us that is not very important for our Salvation Isai xlviii v. 17. I am the Lord which teacheth thee profitable things In the Faith then which the Church teaches must be found the fulness of the Truths reveal'd by GOD Otherwise she is no longer the Church that JESUS CHRIST founded That particular Persons may be ignorant of some Articles I easily confess but the Church conceals nothing of what JESUS CHRIST has reveal'd And therefore the Faithful who are ignorant of certain Articles in particular confess them nevertheless all in general when they say I believe the Vniversal Church This said I is the Church which your Ministers know not They teach you that this visible and exterior Church may cease to be upon the Earth they teach you that she may err in her Decisions they teach you that to believe this Church is to believe Men But 't is not in this manner that the Church is propos'd to us in the Creed 'T is there propos'd to us to believe her as we believe in the Father and in the Son and in the Holy Ghost and therefore the Faith of the Church is joyn'd with the Faith of the three Divine Persons These things having been said at several times but almost in this Order I added that our Doctrin on this Point was so true that the Pretended Reformed who deny'd it could not wholly reject it That is their Synods acted in such a manner as shew'd that they requir'd as well as we an absolute Submission to the Authority and Decrees of the Church Here I let Mademoiselle de Duras see the four Acts of the Gentlemen of the Pretended Reformed Religion which I have taken notice of in the Exposition Article XX. She had read them there but I caused her to read them in the very Book of the Discipline The first is taken out of the Vth. Chapter Title of Consistories Article XXXI Where 't is said That Disputes about Doctrine should be determin'd by GODs Word if it might be in the Consistory if not the matter should be brought before the Colloquy thence to the Provincial Synod and in fine to the National where the full and final Resolution should be made by GODs Word to which if any one refus'd to submit with an express disclaiming of his Errors he should be cut off from the Church 'T is not then said I to GODs Word alone precisely as such that the full and final Resolution belongs since after it is propos'd an Appeal is permitted but to GODs Word in as much as explicated and interpreted by the Churches last Judgment The second Act is taken out of the Synod of Vitré related in the Book of the Discipline It contains the Letter of Mission which all the Churches make when they send Deputies to the National Synod See the Terms of it We promise before GOD to submit our selves to whatsoever shall be resolv'd in your Holy Assembly being perswaded that GOD will preside in it and guide you by his Holy Spirit in all Truth and Equity thrô the Rule of his Word This Perswasion said I if it be grounded only on an human Presumption cannot be the matter of so solemn an Oath by which they swear to submit to a Resolution they do not yet know It cannot then be founded but upon an express Promise That the Holy Ghost will preside in the last Judgment of the Church and Catholics say no more The third Act which is found also in the same Book of the Discipline is the Condemnation of the Independents on their saying That every Church ought to govern it self without dependance on any one in Ecclesiastical Matters This Proposition was in the Synod of Charenton declar'd as prejudicial to the State as to the Church 'T was there judg'd That it open'd the Door to all sorts of Irregularities and Extravagances took away all Remedies and made way for the forming as many Religions as Parishes But said I whatever Synods are held if we do not believe our selves oblig'd to submit our Judgments to them we cannot avoid the Inconveniences of the Independents and the leaving a Door open for the setting up as many Religions I do not say as there are Parishes but as there are Heads We must then come to this Obligation of submitting our Judgment to what the Catholic Church teaches These three Acts are taken out of the Book of the Discipline printed at Charenton in the year 1667. The fourth is found in a Book of Mr. Blondes's Intitled Actes Autentiques printed at Amsterdam by Blaeu in the year 1655. 'T is a Resolution of the National Synod of Sainte Foy 1578. which names four Ministers to meet at an Assembly where was to be treated a Re-union with the Lutherans by framing a Formulary of Profession of the common Faith Power was given to these Ministers to decide all Points of Doctrin and others that should be brought into Deliberation and to consent to this Confession of Faith even without communicating any farther about it with the Churches if the Time permitted not to do it From this Act I concluded two things One That the whole Synod trusted their Faith in the Hands of four private Persons a thing far more extraordinary than to see particulars submit to the whole Church The other That the Pretended Reformed Church is yet but little assur'd of her Confession of Faith since she consents to the changing it and that in Points so important as are those that make the Dispute with the Lutherans one of which is the Reality If the Pretended Reformed hop'd that the Lutherans would return to them there was no need of a new Confession of Faith What was then intended was That both the one and the other continuing in their Sentiments there should be fram'd a Confession of Faith in which both Parties might agree which could not be done without adding or suppressing something essential in a Confession of Faith which they give us as teaching only the pure Word of GOD. Mademoiselle de Duras acknowledged to me that having seen in my Treatise these Acts and my Reflections which are the same with these I now made she knew not what to answer to 'em and that therefore she desir'd to hear what Answer Mr. Claude would make as well upon these Acts as upon the other Difficulties that regarded the Authority of the Church I told her That thô those of her Religion acted as holding the Churches Authority infallible and indisputable yet 't was true That they deny'd this Infallibility and I added That 't was a constant Maxim in her Religion That every private Person how ignorant soever was oblig'd to believe That he could understand the Holy Scripture better than all the Councils and all the rest
that one might dispute but I own what you say And well then answer'd I if it be so they are by the Grace of the Holy Ghost and Faith infus'd in condition to make an Act of Faith when the Faith shall be preacht to them and I ask when the Scripture acknowledg'd by the whole Church for a Word inspir'd by GOD is shewn them Whether they are not in condition to make with the whole Church this Act of Faith I believe that this Scripture is GODs Word as I believe that GOD is Mr. Claude would never acknowledge this but always answer'd That they had yet only an human Perswasion about the Scripture and that Divine Faith came not to them till they had read it If they have said I but an human Perswasion they have but a doubtful Perswasion and consequently doubt of that which is according to you the whole Foundation of the Faith In one word they are Infidels No said he they are barely ignorant and you must also say as much of the Faith one has in the Church For 't is not a matter of small difficulty to discern which is the true Church and before one is in a condition to know it of ones self one is ignorant of it or one has at most but a bare human Perswasion on the Faith of ones Parents Thus once again what you shall say upon the Church I will say to you upon the Scripture Let us see Sir answer'd I whether you will say it or whether you will have reason to say it You acknowledge then That a baptiz'd Christian who has neither read the holy Scripture nor heard it read is not in condition to make this Act of Faith I believe that this Scripture is GODs Word as I believe that GOD is Behold a terrible Inconvenience that a Believer cannot make so essential an Act of Faith 'T is not so amongst us For the Believer who receives the Holy Scripture from the Hands of the Church makes with the whole Church this Act of Faith As I believe that GOD is so I believe that this Scripture is the Word of him in whom I believe And I say that he cannot make this Act of Faith but by the Faith he has already in the Authority of the Church which presents him the Scripture I must here proceeded I throughly explicate but simply nevertheless in what Order Christians are instructed concerning the Truth of the Scripture I speak not of Infidels I speak of baptiz'd Christians and I desire you to observe well this Distinction There are two things here to be consider'd The one is who it is that inspires us with the Act of Faith by which we believe the Holy Scripture as GODs Word and we say that 't is the Holy Ghost On this we are agreed The other thing to be consider'd is what exterior Means the Holy Ghost uses to make us believe the Holy Scripture and I say That 't is the Church That it is so we need only see the Apostles Creed that is the first Instruction which a Believer receives He has not read the Holy Scripture and already he believes in GOD and in JESUS CHRIST and in the Holy Ghost and the Universal Church There is no mention made to him of the Scripture but the believing the Universal Church is propos'd to him as soon as the believing in the Holy Ghost These two Articles enter together into his Heart the Holy Ghost and the Church because he who believes in the Holy Ghost necessarily also believes the Universal Church which the Holy Ghost directs I say then that the first Act of Faith which the Holy Ghost puts in the Hearts of Baptiz'd Christians is to believe with the Father Son and Holy Ghost the Universal Church and that this is the exterior Means by which the Holy Ghost insinuates into Hearts the Belief of the Holy Scripture If this Means is not certain the Faith in the Scripture will consequently be doubtful But as the Catholic has always found this Means certain there is not any Moment in which he cannot say As I believe that GOD is I believe that GOD has spoken to men and that this Scripture is his Word And the Reason for which he can at first make this Act of Faith is because he never doubted of the Churches Authority and because this is the first thing which the Holy Ghost put in his Heart with the Faith in GOD and in JESUS CHRIST As to what you ask me how he believes the Church that is not precisely our Question 'T is sufficient that we see he always believes it since 't is the first thing the Holy Ghost puts in his Heart and the exterior Means by which he makes him believe the Holy Scripture The Scripture of which he never offers to doubt since he never doubted of the Church which presents it to him This Sir is our Doctrin and because 't is not yours you necessarily fall into the Inconvenience I have noted Because you believe not the Churches Authority as a thing which cannot fail we shew you a Point of time in which you cannot make an Act of Faith upon the Scripture and consequently in which you cease to be a Believer Mr. Claude told me here That the Child who recited the Creed spake like a Parrot without Understanding what he said and so we ought not to insist much upon that And besides that I affirm'd gratis That to believe the Universal Church was the first Act of Faith which the Holy Ghost put into the Heart of the Baptiz'd Christian to insinuate to him by that means Faith in the Holy Scripture In fine That I answer'd not what he askt me concerning the Church nor how we began to believe her for said he The Holy Ghost is the Principle and not the Motive of Believing That 't was requisite therefore I should explicate how we believ'd the Church and by what Motive and that from my manner of speaking it seem'd as if we believ'd her by Enthusiasm and without any Motive inducing us so to do To this I answered I pretended not That the Church was believ'd by Enthusiasm That for the acknowledging her there were divers Motives of Credibility which the Holy Ghost suggested to his Faithful as he pleas'd That he was not ignorant of them but they were not now in Question Our Business now is said I to know whether the exterior Means which the Holy Ghost uses to make us believe the Holy Scripture is not the Churches Authority I speak not gratis when I say That this is the first thing which the Holy Ghost puts in the Hearts of baptiz'd Christians for in the Creed there is mention'd to them the Universal Church and she is propos'd to their Belief without speaking to them of the Scripture 'T is to no purpose to say That Children repeat at first like Parrots both the Creed and the Name of the Universal Church Let us leave said I the Parrot that speaks only by
pass'd again over the Doubt in which one must be touching the Scripture if one doubted of the Churches Authority She said she never so much as thought that a Christian might doubt one moment of the Scripture and besides she perfectly understood that Mr. Claude rejecting the Name of Doubt acknowledg'd the Thing in other terms Which serv'd only to make appear how hard this Matter was both to think and say since being forc't to own it he thought not fit to do it in simple Terms For in fine not to know whether a thing be or no if it be not to Doubt is nothing It appear'd then clearly That the two Propositions which were in debate were establisht And I shew'd Mademoiselle de Duras in few words That her Church by believing two such strange Things had chang'd the whole Order of instructing GODs Children practis'd at all times in the Christian Church For this purpose I needed only repeat to her what she had heard me say and what she had heard Mr. Claude grant GOD nevertheless put in my heart something more express and I said to her as follows The Order of instructing GODs Children is to teach them before all things the Apostles Creed I believe in GOD the Father and in JESVS CHRIST and in the Holy Ghost the holy Catholic Church the Communion of Saints the Remission of Sins and the rest As much as the Faithful believes in GOD the Father and in his Son JESUS CHRIST and in the Holy Ghost so much does he believe the Universal Church where the Father where the Son where the Holy Ghost is ador'd As much I say as he believes the Father so much does he believe the Church which makes Profession to believe that GOD the Father of JESUS CHRIST has adopted Children whom he has united to his Son As much as he believes in the Son so much does he believe the Church which he has assembled by his Blood which he has establisht by his Doctrin which he has founded on the Rock and against which he has promis'd that the Gates of Hell shall not prevail As much as he believes in the Holy Ghost so much does he believe that Church to which the Holy Ghost was given for a Teacher And he that says I believe in GOD and in JESVS CHRIST and in the Holy Ghost Rom. X. v. 10. when he says I believe confesses With the heart he believeth unto Righteousness and with the mouth Confession is made unto Salvation as St. Paul says and he knows that the Faith he has is not a private Sentiment There is a Church a Society of Men which believes as he does 'T is the Universal Church which is neither here nor there neither at this time nor at another She is not confin'd to one only Country like the ancient Judaical Church nor is she to end as that was Dan. II. v. 44. C. 7. v. 14. and her Kingdom shall not pass to other People as 't is written in Daniel She is at all times and in all places and so dispers'd that whoever will come to her may She has no Interruption in her Succession for there is not any time when one cannot say I believe the Vniversal Church As there is not any time but one may say I believe in GOD the Father and in his Son and in the Holy Ghost This Church is Holy because all she teaches is holy because she teaches all the Doctrin which makes Saints that is all the Doctrin of JESUS CHRIST because she encloses all the Saints in her Unity And these Saints must not only be united in Spirit They are exteriorly united in the Communion of this Church and this is meant by the Communion of Saints In this Universal Church in this Communion of Saints is the Remission of Sins There is Baptism by which Sins are remitted there is the Ministery of the Keys by which whatsoever is remitted or retained on Earth Matt. xvi v. 19. John xx v. 23. is remitted or retained in Heaven Behold then in this Church an exterior Ministery which lasts as long as the Church that is to say always since this Church is believ'd at all times not as a thing which has been or must be but as a thing which actually is See then to what this Church is joyn'd and what is joyn'd to this Church She is joyn'd immediatly to the Holy Ghost which governs her I believe in the Holy Ghost the holy Catholic Church To this Church is joyn'd the Communion of Saints the Remission of Sins the Resurrection of the Flesh eternal Life Out of this Church there is neither Communion of Saints nor Remission of Sins nor Resurrection to eternal Life Behold the Faith of the Church establisht in the Creed It makes no mention of the Scripture Is it because it despises it GOD forbid You shall receive the Scripture from the Hands of the Church and because you never doubted of the Church you shall never doubt of the Scripture which the Church has receiv'd from GOD from JESUS CHRIST and from the Apostles which she always keeps as coming from that Source which she puts into the Hands of all the Faithful Methought this Doctrin truly Holy and Apostolical wrought the Effect it ought to work But there is said I one Word more 'T is what I said to Mr. Claude and I reduce it now to this most plain Argument which every one may equally understand I mean the Learned as the Ignorant and the private Person as the Pastor The baptiz'd Christian before he reads the holy Scripture can either make this Act of Faith I believe that this Word is inspir'd by GOD as I believe that GOD is or he cannot If he cannot he then doubts of it he is reduc'd to examin whether the Gospel is not a Fable But if he can make it by what means shall he do it The Holy Ghost shall put it in his Heart This is no Answer for it is agreed That Faith in the Scripture comes from the Holy Ghost The Question is concerning the exterior Means which the Holy Ghost uses and there can be no other but the Churches Authority Thus every Christian receives from the Church without examining this Scripture as a Writing inspir'd by GOD. Let us go a little farther Does the Church only give us the Holy Scripture in Paper the Bark of the Word the Body of the Letter No without doubt she gives us the Spirit that is the Sense of the Scripture For to give us the Scripture without the Sense is to give us a Body without a Soul a Letter which kills The Scripture without its lawful Interpretation the Scripture destitute of its natural Sense is a Knife to cut our Throats The Arian cut his Throat by the Scripture misunderstood so did the Nestorian so did the Pelagian GOD forbid then That the Church should give us only the Scripture without giving us the Sense of it She receiv'd them both together When she
receiv'd the Gospel of St. Matthew and the Epistle to the Romans and the rest she understood them This Sense which she receiv'd with the Scripture she has kept with the Scripture and the same exterior Means which the Holy Ghost uses to make us receive the Holy Scripture he uses also to give us its true Sense All this comes from the same Principle all this is the Sequel of the same Design As then there is nothing to examin after the Church when she gives us the Holy Scripture so there is nothing to examin when she interprets it and proposes its true Sense Wherefore you see that after the Councel of Jerusalem Paul and Silas said not Examin this Decree but they taught the Church to observe what the Apostles had judg'd In this manner has the Church always proceeded I would not believe the Gospel says St. Augustin were I not mov'd by the Authority of the Catholic Church Ep. 5. Cont. Manich. And a little after Those whom I believ'd when they said to me Believe the Gospel shall I not believe when they bid me not believe Manicheus This Society of Pastors establisht by JESUS CHRIST and continu'd until now giving me the Gospel has also told me That I must detest Hereticks and evil Doctrins I believe both together and by the same Authority After this manner were Christians instructed in the primitive Times Tertull. praescrip adv haeret 18. 37. in which Hereticks were told That they were not receivable to dispute of the Scripture because without Scripture they could be shewn that Scripture is not for them that there is nothing common between them and Scripture And observe if you please That all Christian Societies except the Churches newly reform'd have kept this manner of Instructing Mr. Claude and I said That the Greek Church the Ethiopian the Armenian and others were deceiv'd indeed in believing themselves the true Church but all at least believe That there is nothing to examin after the true Church There is no other manner of teaching the Faithful If we tell them That they may understand the Holy Scripture better than all the rest of the Church together we nourish Pride we take away Docility None says it but the Churches which call themselves Reformed Every where else they say as we do That there is a true Church which must be believ'd without examining after her This is believ'd not only in the true Church but also in those which imitate the true Church The Pretended Reformed is the only Church which says it not If the true Church which soever she is says it the Pretended Reformed is not then the true Church because she says it not Let them not tell us The Ethiopian says it the Greek says it the Armenian says it the Roman says it which shall I believe If your Doubt consisted in choosing between the Roman and the Greek 't would be necessary to enter into this Examen But now 't is agreed in your Religion That the Greek Church the Ethiopian Church and the rest are in the wrong against the Roman and if they were true Churches you ought in leaving the Roman which as you say was not to have sought Communion with them They are not then the true Church No more are you For the true Church believes That we must believe without examining what the true Church teaches You teach the contrary You call your selves the true Church and you say at the same time That one must examin after you Which is to say That one may be damn'd in believing you You renounce then from that time the Advantage of the true Church You are not the true Church You must be left 'T is here the Beginning must be If any one in leaving you be tempted to unite himself to the Greek Church he shall be answer'd Mademoiselle de Duras having heard these things nothing seem'd to me capable to trouble her but the Habit contracted from her Infancy and the fear of afflicting her Mother for whom I knew she had all the Tenderness and all the Respect that such a Mother deserves I also saw she was concern'd for the Reproaches that were made her of having human Designs and especially of having delay'd the doubting of her Religion till after a Donation made her by her Mother Your own Conscience said I to her best knows in what Condition you were when this Donation was made you whether you had any Doubt and supprest it in prospect of procuring your self this Advantage I did not so much as think of it answer'd she You know well then said I to her That this Motive has not any part in what you do Continue therefore in Peace provide for your Salvation and let Men talk For this Apprehension of having human Respects imputed to you is it self a sort of human Respect and that of the most delicate and most to be fear'd She requested me to repeat in Mr. Coton's Presence what had been said through a Desire she had that he should be Instructed with her He was sent for we agreed on the Facts Mr. Coton with an extream Sweetness made me some Objections about the Doctrin I had explicated I answer'd them He told me he was not exercis'd in Dispute nor vers'd in these Matters He said true he refer'd himself to Mr. Claude I pray'd GOD to enlighten him and departed to return to my Duty After another Conference which Mademoiselle de Duras and I had at St. Germain in the Dutches of Richelieu's Apartment she told me That she believ'd her self in condition to take her Resolution within a little while and that there was nothing more to do But to pray GOD to conduct her well The Success was such as we wisht On the 22. of March I return'd to Paris to receive her Abjuration She made it in the Church of the Reverend Fathers of the Christian Doctrin The Exhortation I made her tended only to represent to her That she was returning into the Church which her Fathers had forsaken That she would not henceforth believe her self more capable than the Church more illuminated than the Church and fuller of the Holy Ghost than the Church That she would receive from the Church without examining the true Sense of the Scripture as she receiv'd from her the Scripture it self That she was henceforth going to build upon the Rock and that her Faith must fructify in good Works She felt the Consolation of the Holy Ghost and the Assistance was edify'd by her good Example The End of the Conference REFLEXIONS ON A Writing OF M r. CLAUDE'S REFLEXIONS On a WRITING of M R. CLAUDE ' S. YOU have seen in the Advertisement which is at the Beginning of this Book That after Mr. Claude had read my Recital he made an Answer to the Instruction I had given Mademoiselle de Daras joyning to it a Relation of our Conference which he had drawn up as he affirms in that Writing the next day after ouâ— Meeting
decides nothing till it be first receiv'd and that JESVS CHRIST's was not so as yet since 't was in dispute whether they should receive it or reject it I am oblig'd to observe That assuredly I heard nothing of all this in the Conference and you will soon see that it were indeed better to be silent than to say such things But since Mr. Claude will have said them he must then also say that because JESUS CHRISTs Miracles were rejected as deceitful Signs by the Envious by the Obstinate in one word by the declar'd Enemies of the Truth These Miracles were not convincing enough to oblige Men to believe JESUS CHRIST on his Word without examining farther and that for Example after he had rais'd Lazarus in express Testimony John xi v. 42. That GOD had sent him those who beheld with their Eyes so great a Miracle were I do not say permitted but expresly oblig'd to examin whether JESVS CHRIST was sent by GOD. He must I say carry the necessity of the Examen to this excess Otherwise 't will be true as I have said That there was then a visible and palpable Authority to which every one ought to submit without examining so that there was never any time when Men were less expos'd to the Temptation of Pride by elevating themselves above all living and speaking Authority since JESVS CHRIST the most living and most speaking as well as the greatest and most infallible that ever was was then on the Earth and that they preferr'd not themselves before the Synagogue but by submitting to JESVS CHRIST whose Miracles as himself said took away all Excuse from those John xv v. 22 23 24. that believ'd not in him Which the Assembly that condemn'd him knew so well that they found no other Answer to his Miracles nor any other Means to resist him but to make him away and with him Lazarus also John xi v. 47. xii v. 10. to stifle if they could at once with the Miracles they had seen the Memory of him that wrought them They must not then here think to dazle People with frivolous Answers and make the Readers lose the Consequence of an Argument by bringing in unprofitable Questions I mean That 't is to no Purpose to start up here the Question concerning deceitful Signs nor to answer That the Synagogue doubted of the Truth of JESVS CHRIST's Miracles The Question is only to know whether this Doubt was not the Effect of an evident Malice and in fine whether it be not certain amongst Christians That there was in JESVS CHRIST's Miracles so full a Demonstration of the Divine Power and so clear a Confirmation of JESVS CHRIST's Mission that every reasonable Spirit was oblig'd to yield without any farther Examination so that there was then a living and speaking Authority to which there was nothing to be oppos'd but a gross Ignorance and a manifest Obstinacy This is the matter in Debate and if after this Explication of the Question they think still to escape by saying with Mr. Claude That JESUS CHRIST's Authority was not receiv'd they must go farther John viii v. 13. and say to JESUS CHRIST himself with the Jews Thou bearest Record of thy self thy Record is not true Then we will answer with JESUS CHRIST John viii v. 13 14 16 18. John v. v. 36. Thô I bear Record of my self yet my Record is true And again I am not alone but my Father that sent me bears also Witness of me And again The Works which the Father hath given me to finish the same Works that I do bear Witness of me that the Father hath sent me And in fine C. xv v. 22 24. They have no Cloak for their Sin If I had not done among them the Works which none other Man did they had not had Sin but now they have both seen and hated both me and my Father The meaning of this is That the Miracles are clear the Authority is incontestable and the Resistance can have no other Ground but a blind Hatred I expect they will yet answer me That JESUS CHRIST added after all this John v. v. 39. Search the Scriptures they are they which testify of me and that they will dare to conclude from thence how one might and ought to examine after JESUS CHRIST so that the Word he pronounc'd shews us not a superabundance of Conviction in the Scripture but an insufficiency of Authority in the Person of JESUS CHRIST If they make yet this Objection we have nothing to do but to hold our Peace and leave JESUS CHRIST to defend his own Cause In the mean time we will conclude That 't is JESUS CHRISTs Authority which we revere in his Church If we say the Church must be believ'd without examining 't is because JESUS CHRIST who teaches and guides her is above all Examen We will not forbear to say also in imitation of JESUS CHRIST Search the Scriptures We shall confound them by this Scripture which they say they believe and we shall see them also faint under this Examination but it shall be after we have forc'd them to acknowledge that we must submit without examining to the Churches Authority in which that Spirit whom JESUS CHRIST has sent to keep his place always speaks There is then nothing less to the Purpose than the Example of the Synagogue and our Pretended Reformed depriv'd of this Example which was their chiefest Strength continue alone to believe themselves every one in particular capable to understand the holy Scripture better than whatsoever in the Universe has Authority to interpret it and to judge of Doctrin and than all the Faithful that appear to them in the Worl'd Which is the Error of the Independents or something worse They will say That this private Person who examins after the Church shall always be well assur'd not to be alone in his Sentiment since there will always remain some secret elected one who will think as he does As if without refuting this Vision it were not a Pride detestable enough to set himself alone above all that is seen and heard to speak in the whole Church besides They will say again 'T is no Pride to believe ones self enlightned by the Holy Ghost But on the contrary 't is the height of Pride That particular Persons should dare to believe the Holy Ghost will instruct them and leave in Error all the Faithful that appear in the rest of the Church Nor is it to any purpose to answer as Mr. Claude does in his Relation John iii. v. 8. in his Relation That the Spirit bloweth where he will For they must shew that this Spirit which reposes on the Humble ceases not to breath on those who believe themselves alone more capable to understand the Scripture than all the rest of the Church since they examin after her and not only to breath upon them but himself also to inspire into them this proud Thought But in fine
Mr. Claude shall publish his Relation 't will appear that the little he says naturally requires all that I recite So it is that the Pretended Reformed were averr'd in establishing their Church to have done contrary to what the Orthodox ever did and precisely what all 〈◊〉 have done and Mr. Claude press'd upon this matter cannot in all the History of Christianity shew one only Church truly Christian founded as the Churches of the new Reformation It may now be judg'd what likelihood there is that what all Hereticks have done contrary to the Practice of all the Orthodox can ever be authoriz'd by the Example of the Apostles when they separated from the Synagogue But since Mr. Claude places the strength of his Defence in this Example I desire him to add to the evident Facts I alledg'd to him 〈◊〉 this Subject these short Reflections that thô JESVS CHRIST authoriz'd of himself had no need of any Succession to make himself believ'd nevertheless to inculcate to us how necessary 't is for the true Religion to have a Succession always manifest he would at his coming into the World find there a Church actually subsisting in its whole State that he was born and liv'd in this Church actually subsisting that is in the Synagogue and would so form his Church in the midst of her that even the holy Apostles after his Asâ—â—â—sion and the Coming down of the Holy Ghost persisted publickly in the Service of the Temple which was than the most 〈◊〉 Mark of Communion that they were not indeed seen whatever might be ordain'd against them to have ever withdrawn from it as long as the Temple was in being and the Synagogue could keep either its exterior Form or even any appearance of its ancient State that GOD who would in fine have his Children entirely separated from the Jews had first extinguisht in this ungrateful People by a manifest Reprobation with the Sacrifice and Priesthood all the Marks of the Church so that 't is apparent the Synagogue with its Temple fell to ruin before the Children of GOD departed from it that he was then so far from leaving any hope to this People as he had done in the ancient Transmigration and Ruin of the first Temple that he had on the contrary given all the Marks of an implacable Anger that to the end such a Fall of his heretofore chosen People and the Divorce declar'd to the Synagogue formerly his Spouse might not give the least Pretext of suspecting any like Event in time to come he had caus'd this future Fall and Divorce to be foretold by all his Prophets as a singular Example of his wrath and had at the same time protested that no such thing should ever befal that Church with which he made an eternal Covenant that besides all this and thô the Reprobation of the Synagogue was clearly explicated in the Scripture and thô the Apostles without making any Innovation in the Doctrin did but follow him who had til their time been always without any Interruption expected nevertheless because there was in this Action some Rupture with the Synagogue heretofore the true Church to authorize them in it there was no less requir'd than JESVS CHRIST himself present on the earth with all the Authority of his eternal Father and in a word to dissent from the Sentiments of the Synagogue thô besides convinc'd by the Scriptures 't was necessary that JESVS CHRIST the Corner Stone in whom all was to be united should appear visibly on the earth with the incontestable Marks of his Mission I leave you now to consider whether an Example of this Nature can give any occasion of ever separating from the Church of JESVS CHRIST or of saying that this Church founded on the Rock must fall or that the Succession of which JESVS CHRIST is the Source could suffer any Interruption and whether all does not here rather cry out against such an Attempt The Ninth REFLECTION On the Visibility of the Church that Mr. Claude opposes not the Doctrin I have explain'd till he has first fram'd himself a false Idea of it HItherto we have seen what concerns the Conference and Mr. Claude's manner of relating it We must now consider what he opposes against the Instructions that preceded it He answers them largely in the writing Vid. Sup. Advert Ref. p. 57. we have already mention'd This writing has no Title and is made in the Form of a Letter To make our selves better understood let us give it a Name and call it Mr. Claude's Manuscript Answer As you have seen that the Conference was on my part preceded by two Instructions Vid. Sub. p. 2. the first of which establisht the perpetual Visibility of the Church Vid. Sup. p. 16. and the second clear'd some Objections taken from the Book of the Kings Mr. Claude has follow'd this Division He divides also his Answer into two parts the first is subdivided into four questions In the first he treats of the Universal Church which the Creed speaks of and blames me for not having comprehended in it with all the Blessed Spirits the Saints which shall be born even to the end of the World In the second he examins whether the Church can be defin'd by her exterior Communion as he supposes I have done He speaks in the third of the Churches perpetual Visibility and seeks in the fourth to what Church JESVS CHRISTs Promises belong whether to that I have setled or to that he has establisht He draws afterwards eleven Consequences from the Doctrin he has explicated and passes to the second Part the Objections taken from the Book of the Kings This is the Idea of his work 'T is in these four Questions and these eleven Consequences that he attack's with all his might the Doctrin I have taught concerning the perpetual Visibility of the Church but you are going to see that he could not do it till he had first fram'd himself a false Idea of it To shew that the Church spoken of in the Creed ought to be always visible I said that all Christians by the Name Church understood a Society Vid. Sup. p. 2. seq making Profession to believe the Doctrin of JESVS CHRIST â—nd given it self by his Word whence it follows that 't is visible and linkt by an exterior and sensible Communion Thus I at first laid down my Position being what I had to make good 'T was not my intention as Mr. Claude supposes neither was there any need to give a perfect Definition of the Church nor to prove her interior Union by the Holy Ghost by Faith by Charity for of this we are agreed The question then being only about the exterior Marks of this Union I had done all in shewing that these exterior Marks are inseparable from the Church and consequently that she is always visible In the mean time on my having said that by the word Church is understood a Society making Profession to believe the Doctrin
A CONFERENCE WITH M r. CLAUDE MINISTER OF CHARENTON CONCERNING The Authority of the CHURCH By JAMES BENIGNE BOSSUET Bishop of Meaux Councellor to the most Christian King and formerly Preceptor to the DAUPHIN First Almoner to the DAUPHINESS Faithfully done into English out of the French Original Publisht with Allowance LONDON Printed for Matthew Turner at the Lamb in High-Holbourn 1687. ADVERTISEMENT I Had no intent to publish either this Conference or the Instructions it was accompany'd with They both had for their Object the Conversion of a particular person and having wrought their Effect there was no obligation to make any farther noise about ' em But as I was not 〈◊〉 to publish the Recital of it so neither did I affectedly strive to keep conceal'd I gave a Copy to Mâ—demoiselle de Duras who requested it 〈…〉 but just 〈◊〉 I consented without difficulty to the communicating it to some Gentleâ—â—â— of the Pretended Reformed Religion that desir'd to see it because 't was thought it might be instrumental to their Conversion The same Motive 〈…〉 to impart it to some other of these Gentlemen either by my self or by the Interposition of Friends Thus it pass'd into several hand◠〈…〉 Copies taken than I knew of 〈◊〉 they were spread 〈◊〉 they were alter'd 〈…〉 the Relation I had made or turn'd it according to their 〈…〉 't was printed at Tholoze from a very corrupt 〈…〉 I can no longer forbear giving it to you as I had my self set it down with great Fidelity and Exactness At my coming forth from the Conference I related it entirely to the Duke and Dutchess of Richâ—lieu in the presence of the 〈◊〉 Tâ—stu The particular zeal they had for the Conversâ—â—â— of Mademoiselle de Duras made them desire me so to doâ— I had before 〈…〉 to them the precedent Conversations The next day I made the same Recital to some of my particular Friends amongst whom was the Bishop of Mirâ—poix I was full of the matter and related it naturally All those Gentlemen 〈◊〉 me to put it in writing whilst 't was fresh in my memory alledging several Reasons to perswade me that this Labor would not â—e 〈◊〉 I believâ—â— it 〈…〉 I was 〈◊〉 to write with the same swiftness which is usual when one 〈◊〉 dâ—wâ— facts that are present without troubling ones self about the Style and these Gentlemen observ'd in the written Narrative the same sinplicity they had discern'd in my recounting it by Word of Mouth Mademoiselle de Duras acknowledg'd my Report to be exactly true and I hope those that shall read it without 〈◊〉 will have the same Opinion of it Several Copies of my Relation being dispers'd as I have told you one 〈◊〉 into the hands of Mr. Claude as himself avâ—rs and he on his side together with an Answer to the Instructions I had particularly given Mademoiselle de Duras gave abroad a Relation of the Conference very different from this of mine To speak freely what I think his Relation is neither for his Credit nor minâ— We hold in it round about long Discourses languishing inâ—ipid and inconsequent enough 〈◊〉 Mr. Claude's Relation we often return back to what we had left without perceiving how we get 〈◊〉 again We did not act in that mannâ—r and our Dispute was consequential and close enough In this sort of Contests men naturally grow hot as in a kind of wrestling and so the sequel is more animated than the Beginnings Men try one another and if I so speak in the first Blows that are given when they have a little explain'd themselves when they think they have discover'd where each Party places the Difficulty and found as I may say one anothers weak sides all that follows is more lively and pressing Whether all this be as natural in Mr. Claude's Discourse as in mine the Reader shall be Judge As his is turn'd many will scarce believe but that it has been adjusted and trimm'd up on the perusal of mine But I will not stay upon these Reflexions 'T is with Discourses as with Pictures in which every one cannot discern what is Original and as I may say from the first hand Nor will I here make use of the odious Reproach of Insincerity One does not always so exactly remember either the things that were said or the Order in which they were deliver'd We often confound in our Minds our After-thoughts with what we indeed said in the Dispute and one is frequently found to have chang'd the Truth without any Design of lying What I shall say of Mr. Claude the same he may say of me Our Conversation was in private and neither of us can produce indifferent Witnesses thus every one will judge of the Truth of our Recitals according as himself is prepossess'd I pretend not to draw any Advantage from the Success of the Conference which was follow'd by the Conversion of Mademoiselle de Duras 't is a Work of GODs for which we ought to give him thanks 't is an Example for those that are well dispos'd but not an Argument for the Obstinate The Catholicks will look on this Change in one manner and the Pretended Reformed in another So that should Mr. Claude and I set our selves each of us to justify his Relation the Result would be only a Dispute with which the Publick has nothing to do And what great matter is it will the Reader say which the two had the better The Cause resides not in these two men who would appear extremely vain and so of little Credit if they would have every one whether Friends or Adversaries believe them equally 〈◊〉 their Word In these Altercations the best Course a prudent Reader can take is to search into the Bottom of the Matters and without regarding the personal Facts to consider the Doctrin laid down by each Party The Subject treated of in all this Relation is no less clear than important 'T is the Authority of the Church Our Adversaries make little account of this Dispute being always heard to say that we must come to the Bottom setting aside as an unnecessary Formality all the Arguments drawn from the Authority of the Church as if it were not an essential Part of the Bottom to examin by what Authority and what Means JESUS CHRIST would have Christians resolve themselves on the Disputes that should spring up in his Church Catholicks pretend that this Means is to hear the Church it self They pretend that a particular Member ought not to resolve but with the whole Body and that be hazards all when he resolves any other way They pretend that to know in what Church we ought to stay we need only know which it is that was never accus'd of being form'd by separating it self that was extant before all Separations from which all others have separated Without going forth of our House our very Parents will shew us this Church Deut. xxxii v. 7. Ask thy Father and he will shew thee thy Elders and they will
common Faith but only of Establishing this Toleration by a Synodal Decree as had been done at Charenton Mr. Claude answer'd that the Point of Doctrin to be decided was Whether a mutual Toleration might be establisht and that the Confession of common Faith would have done nothing else but declar'd this Toleration Which he deny'd not but it might be done in a Synod as I must grant that it might also be done in a Confession of Faith where there should have been an express Article to that purpose I answer'd him That this could never be call'd a Confession of common Faith and askt him Whether he thought the Lutherans or they should have retrench'd any thing of what the one said for the Reality and the other against it He answer'd me No. And then said I each party would have continu'd in the Terms of their own Confession of Faith having nothing common but the Article of Toleration There were said he many other Points in which we agreed 'T is granted answer'd I but 't was not about these Points the Accord was to be made the Question was about the Reality and some others on which there could not be made a Confession of common Faith except one of the Parties chang'd or both agreed upon ambiguous Expressions which each might draw to their own Opinions a thing that had been oft attempted as Mr. Claude himself could not but owne He granted it and related also the Assembly of Marbourg and some others held for that purpose I concluded then That I had reason to believe the Synod of Sainte Foy had a like Design and that 't would have been to mock the World to call that a Confession of common Faith which should have made appear such manifest oppositions on so important Points of the Christian Doctrin To which I farther added 't was so much the more certain That a Confession of Faith was as I said really in agitation in that the Lutherans having already several times declar'd against a Toleration there was nothing to be expected from them but by the Means of which I spake The Matter rested there and I only said That every one need but consider what he ought to think in his Conscience of a Confession of Faith which a whole National Synod had consented to change When Mr. Claude was saying That the Oath of submitting to the National Synod included a Condition I had interrupted him by putting in a word Yes said I they hop'd well of the Synod yet without certainty and expecting the Event they forbare not to swear they would submit Mr. Claude telling me here That I interrupted him and praying me to let him say all I held my peace But after the Affair of Sainte Foy was discuss'd I said to him That I thought it necessary before we pass'd any farther I should tell him in a few words what I had conceiv'd of his Doctrin to the end we might not speak in the air I said then to him You say Sir That these Words Being persuaded that GOD will preside in it and guide you by his Holy Spirit in all Truth and Equity thrô the Rule of his Word are only an honest manner of proposing a Condition He agreed it Let us then said I reduce the Proposition into a conditional one and we shall see what will be the sense of it I swear to submit to all you shall decide on this Supposition or Condition That what you shall decide be agreeable to GODs Word Such an Oath is nothing else but a manifest Illusion as signifying nothing and being but what I might make to Mr. Claude or he to me But in this there would not be any thing serious and 't is to be observ'd that something more particular must be aim'd at since this Oath is only made to the Synod which gives the final determination thô in Mr. Claude's Sense there were as much Reason to make it to the Consistory to which they ought to submit as well as to the Synod supposing it has the Word of GOD for its Guide In this place I held my peace a little and seeing that there was not a word said I went on thus But in fine then Sir if I well understand your Doctrin you believe That a private person may doubt of the Churches Judgment even when she gives her final Determination No Sir answer'd Mr. Claude 't is not to be said That one may doubt there being all the Likelihood in the World that the Church will judge well He that says Likelihood Sir reply'd I immediatly says a manifest Doubt But said Mr. Claude There is more for JESUS CHRIST having promis'd that those who would seek should find since 't is to be presum'd they will seek well 't is to be also believ'd they will judge well and in this assurance there is something indubitable But when there shall be seen in Councels Cabals Factions different Interests it may with reason be doubted Whether in such an Assembly there will not be mixt something human and doubtful Pray Sir said I let us set aside what is good for nothing but to throw dust in ones Eyes All you say of Cabals Factions Interests is absolutely to no purpose and consequently serves only to perplex There is nothing said Mr. Claude more to the purpose And I affirm answer'd I That your self will grant there 's nothing less to the purpose For I ask you Sir Supposing there should appear in the Councel neither Factions nor Cabals supposing also one were assur'd that there were not any and that all pass'd in Order must one receive the Decision without examining it He was fain to answer No. Whence I immediatly concluded I had then reason to say That all you alledg'd as very considerable concerning Factions and Cabals was in the bottom only an Amusement and in fine that a private person a Woman any ignorant Fellow whatever he is may believe and ought to believe that he may happen to understand GODs Word better than a whole Councel thô assembled from the four quarters of the World and than all the rest of the Church Yes said he 't is so I repeated twice or thrice the Proposition he had granted adding still some stronger Circumstance but evidently contain'd in what was accorded What said I better than all the rest of the Church together and than all her Assemblies thô compos'd of the holiest and most illuminated persons in the Universe For all these are still but men after whom according to your Doctrin every one ought still to examin A private person shall believe that he may have more Grace more Light in fine more of the Holy Ghost than all the rest of the Church All this must pass and I might have added more than all the Fathers more than all the past Ages reckoning immediatly from the Apostles times But proceeded I if it be so how do you avoid the Inconveniences of the Independents and what Means has the Church left to hinder the
Reformation have not been able to change the necessary Condition of Humaniâ—â— which for the hindring Divisions and quieting Mens Minâ—â— requires a final Decision independent of all new Examination either General or Particular The Christian Church is not exempt from this Law and the more regular she is the more her Constitution dependâ— on an entire Submission of Mind the more need she has of such an Authority Wherefore from the very beginning of Christianity GOD himself has put into the Hearts of all true Christians That they must no longer search nor examin after the Church has determin'd This inviolable Tradition has wrought its Effect in our Reformed maugre their Principles Nor do I wonder at it Reâ— de 〈◊〉 S. 29. St. Basil very wisely and very truly said That Tradition made men speak more than they would and inspir'd into them things contrary to their Sentiments And if our Reformed will not ow to Tradition this last and final Resolution and this Submission so solemnly sworn 't is then Necessity and Experience that has forc't them to it 't is because there must an End be put to the Doubts and Examinations of private persons by an absolute Authority if they will have Peace and uphold Humility 't is that if they neither have nor exercise this Authority they must make a shew of having and exercising it and at least give the Idea of it 't is in a word because one may indeed discourse and answer Arguments by Words but the natural Ignorance Infirmity and Pride of Mans Mind requires other Remedies The Second REFLEXION On one of the Propositions acknowledg'd by Mr. Claude in the Conference and on the Examen he prescribes after the Judgment of the Church I Pretended to shew is the Conference That by denying the Churches infallible Authority one falls into these two Inconveniences and I said not into one of the two but inevitably into both of them The first is That every particular person how ignorant soever he may be is oblig'd to believe That he may understand GODs Word better than the most universal Synods and all the rest of the Church together The second That there is a time when a Baptiz'd Christian is not in condition to make an Act of Faith upon the Holy Scripture but that whether he will or no he shall find himself oblig'd to doubt whether it be inspir'd by GOD. I have not seen any of the Pretended Reformed in whom these two Propositions have not caus'd an horror and who has not told me he should be so far from ever believing them himself that he should detest those which did Let us see then how it continues fixt by the Conference that they are Consequences of the Pretended Reformeds Doctrin and such manifest Consequences that they are own'd by the Ministers And indeed not to depart from Mr. Claude's Relation he himself asserts in it That after all Ecclesiastical Assemblies every particular Person ought to 〈◊〉 whether they have well understood GODs Word or no When he had spoken of human Interests which often is he said 〈◊〉 the Truth in the most authentical and most universal Assemblies of the Church For to destroy this Answer and shew that 't was in the bottom nothing but a Civil I 〈◊〉 him whether all passing in Order and without the appearance of any human Interest in the Deliberation every private Person must not yet examin He acknowledg'd he must and 〈◊〉 it still in his own Relation maintaining That there is not any Absurdity nor any Pride in a private Persons 〈◊〉 that he may understand GODs Word better than all Ecclesiastical Assemblies what good Order soever is kept in them and of whatsoever Persons they 〈◊〉 be 〈…〉 This Proposition and Doctrin will appear 〈◊〉 to every docible Spirit But to the end the thing may be 〈…〉 let us make Application of this Doctrin in a particular Example The Calvinistical Church since these 〈◊〉 or 〈◊〉 years from her first beginning to be establisht has not held any Assembly more 〈…〉 more 〈◊〉 than the Synoâ— of Dâ—rt Besides all the Churches of the 〈…〉 all the rest of the same Belief that of England that of 〈◊〉 those of the 〈◊〉 those of 〈◊〉 those of Switzerland that of 〈◊〉 and the â—est of the German Language were there by their Deputies and receiv'd it and to the end nothing might be wanting to it if the 〈…〉 Churches of this Realm were hindred from 〈…〉 at it they adopted all its Doctrin in the National Synod of 〈◊〉 1631. where all the Articles of 〈…〉 and sworn to by the whole Synod and afterwards by all-the Provinces and all the particular Churches Since that time none of the Pretended Reformed 〈◊〉 this Synod The 〈◊〉 alone who were there 〈…〉 blame is Doctrin and relate the Cabals and the Share Policy and the Interests of the House of 〈◊〉 had in it All also have yielded and if there be any thing that can be said 〈◊〉 have been receiv'd with an unanimous Confeâ—â— by all the Churches of the Pretended Reformation 't is without doubt the 〈◊〉 of this Synod And nevertheless I will 〈…〉 Whether any private Person whatever of his Church may rely upon an Authority so great amongst them as this is without examining any farther if he be press'd to Answer positively Yea or No to so precise a Question and in a Fact so well circumstantiated he must say No and that in fine notwithstanding all this they were but men how able how illummated how holy soever they are imagin'd still subject to fail whose Sentiments if one should follow blindfold and without examining he would equal men to GOD. Thus according to the Maxims of the new Reformation every private Person even to the most ignorant women ought to believe that they can understand the holy Scripture better than an Assembly compos'd of whatever is greatest in that whole Church which he acknowledges to be the only one where GOD is purely serv'd and not only better than this Assembly but than all the rest of the Church and than all that he knows in the whole Universe This is what Mr. Claude has acknowledg'd to me This is in Substance what he still says in his own Relation and this is what every Minister whether he will or no shall own in a Conference in the presence of any one that shall desire it unless he obstinately resolves not to answer positively In which case he will be seen to shuffle and this Tergiversation will be stronger than an Acknowledgment since 't will not only shew that the Acknowledgment is inevitable but 't will also make appear that he is sensible of its pernicious Consequences And what I say of the Synod of Dort Mr. Claude and every other Minister will be forc'd to say of the Council of Nice of the Council of Constantinople of that of Ephesus of that of Chalcedon and the rest which they and we receive with common accord And when they shall say it
they will say nothing new or unusual in their Religion Calvin said it in formal terms when speaking in general of all the Councils of the precedent Ages 4. Instit c. 9. he writ these words I pretend not in this place that all the Councils must be condemn'd and all their Decrees vacated Nevertheless proceeded he you will object to me that I so order them as to permit every one indifferently to receive or reject what the Councils should have establisht by no means that 's none of my Intent You would say â—he were very far from it The Majesty of Councils and the Authority of so great a Name moves him at first but the Consequence of his Doctrin makes him soon forget what he seem'd willing to say to their advantage For see how he concludes When says he the Authority of a Council is alledg'd I desire first it be consider'd in what time and for what cause it was assembled and what Persons assisted at it afterwards that the principal Point be examin'd according to the Rule of the Scripture so that the Councils Definition have its weight and be as a Prejudice but that it hinder not the Examination This is what all this careful Enquiry after Time Matter and Persons in fine terminates in to wit That at what Time soever a Council is held what Matter soever is there treated and or what Persons soever 't is compos'd every one indifferently for that was the Question should examin the principal Point by GODs Word and believe he can understand that Divine Word better than all the Councils See how far these Gentlemen pâ—sh the Examen They drive it yet much farther since they will have one examin after the Apostles This is not a Consequence which I draw from their Doctrin 'T is their own very Proposition and Doctrin in formal Terms and particularly that of M r. Claude For upon what I saith in the Exposition Exp. Arâ— 19. that after the Council of Jerusalem Act. XV. v. 18. and the Decision of the Apostles where they said It seemed good to the Holy Ghost and to us nowe had any thing more to examin and that in effect Paâ—l and Barnabas with Silas as 't is written in the Acts Act. XVI v. 4. went through the Churches teaching them not to examin what the Apostles had done but to keep the Decrees they had ordain'd Because I concluded thence That they gave the Form to all following Ages and taught us how in all times the Faithful ought to submit to the Churches Decisions without examining after several Answers but all frivolous they were fain at last to answer me clearly That one ought yet to examin after the Council of the Apostles 'T is the 〈◊〉 't is the first that answer'd the Exposition who writ in these terms We do not see that the Apostles publisht their Decision with an absolute Order it should ' be obey'd but they sent Paul Barnabas and Silaâ— for to instruct the Faithful to keep this Ordinance that is evidently to perswade them the Motives and Grounds of it which says not that they were forbid to examâ—â— This is what the Anonymus says The Place is remarkable you will find it in the Nineteenth Article of the first Answer in the fourth and last Observation he makes on the Council of the Apostles Page the 328 th This is not a particular Sentiment of this Authors since there is plac'd in the Front of his Book the Approbation of four Ministers of Charenton of which Mr. Claude is one to the end he may not say I charge him with a strange Doctrin in imputing to him that of this Anoâ—â—mus Thus 't is not the unbelieving Jews and Gentiles 't is the Faithful the Christian Churches that ought to examin after the Apostles and after the Apostles assembled and after they have pronounc'd It seemed good to the Holy Ghost and to us And this prodigious Doctrin is taught in a Church which vauâ—â—â— of hearing nothing but the pure Words of the Apostles See whither the Ministers and the Pretended Reformed and particularly Mr. Claude are forc'd by their Belief to carry the necessity of the Examen There was nothing left but to say we must yet examin after JESVS CHRIST and that with all his Miracles and all the Authority given him by his Father he had not enough to oblige men to follow him on his Word and without examining Mr. Claude said it in our Conference and says it again in his Relation I desire the prudent Reader to believe that in a Matter of this importance I will neither impose upon him nor exaggerate Let him follow me only with attention and he shall see the Truth plainly appear You have seen how I objected in the Conference That unless there were acknowledg'd a living and speaking Authority to which every particular Person is oblig'd to submit without examining private Persons would be brought to the Presumption of believing they could understand the Holy Scripture better than all the Councils together and than all the rest of the Church To prove that in this there was not any thing so presumptuous or absurd Mr. Claude answer'd me that in the time when JESUS CHRIST was upon the Earth the Case had hapned when a private Person ought to raise his own Judgment above that of the Synagogue assembled which condemn'd JESUS CHRIST That this was so far from being a Sentiment of Pride that 't was the Act of a perfect Faith This Answer I confess struck an Horror in me For to make it good one must say That in the time when the Synagogue judg'd JESUS CHRIST and he himself was on the Earth there was not upon Earth any living and speaking Authority to which Men were oblig'd to submit without examining So that one ought to examin after JESUS CHRIST it not being permitted to believe him on his Word I made this Answer to Mr. Claude and shew'd him That they were then so far from a necessity of every ones determining himself by a particular Examen and setting himself above every living and speaking Authority that there was at that time one the greatest which ever was or could be to wit That of JESUS CHRIST and of the Truth it self to whom the Father publickly bare Witness by a Voice from Heaven by the greatest and most visible Miracles that were ever wrought and in fine by the most resplendent as well as the most certain Means the Divine Omnipotence could make use of If I observe in the Conference there was no Answer to this Argument 't is very apparent that in effect there ought to be none Mr. Claude nevertheless in his Relation says he answer'd me That JESUS CHRISTs Miracles made one of the Matters in Question That there were false Miracles which Moses in Deuteronomy advis'd the Israelites to take heed of That the Synagogue had judg'd JESUS CHRISTs Miracles to be done in the Name of Beelzeâ—ub That in fine an Authority
Submission of a divine Faith And well if it be so it remains only to choose between these Churches But then the Calvinistical Church is gone at the very first brush she degrades her self as I may say from the Title of the Church since she finds not in her self Authority enough to cause all those whom she begins to instruct to make an Act of a Christian and an Act of divine Faith not even on the Truth of the Scripture whence 't is suppos'd she ought to learn all the rest But Mr. Claude asks how one shall choose between these Churches Shall it be by Enthusiasm It would be by Enthusiasm as I have observ'd in the Conference if the true Church had not her particular Characters that distinguish her from others She has without going any farther or searching any deeper her Succession in which none can shew her by any positive Fact Interruption Innovation or Change This is what no false Church can so clearly glory of as the true because by glorying of it she would visibly condemn her self There will be then always in the Instruction which the true Church shall give her Children concerning her Condition something that no other Sect can or dare say 'T is by this we would convince if it were in question the Greeks the Ethiopians the Armenians and other Sects which seem in this respect more deceiving because of the apparence of Succession that they shew which also makes them way to attribute to themselves with a little more ground the Authority of the Church But as for the Calvinian Church there is an end of her because she has not so much as an apparent and tolerable Succession and that she dares not as we have now shewn by Mr. Claude's acknowledgment attribute to her self this Authority without which there can neither be any certain Instruction nor any assur'd Foundation of Divine Faith nor in fine any Church 'T would be then in vain for us to lose time here in disputing with the Egyptians and Greeks the Succession they brag of 'T would be no great Labor to shew them the exact Moment of their Innovation The Pretended Reformed know it as well as we and can themselves shew it them when they please So when they pross us to do it 't is not that they think to engage us in a thing impossible or even obscure and difficult but 't is in a word that in so bad a cause there is always something got by digressing and making the consequence of an Argument be lost Thus I had reason to tell Mademoiselle de Duras in one of the Instructions of this Book that if any one disgusted with the Calvinistical Church was tempted to embrace the Religion of the Cophti or of the Greeks 't would be then time to shew them in these Churches that inevitable Moment of their Novelty which they can no more deâ—y than can the other Sects but since the Calvinists with whom we have to do agree it and that none thinks of leaving them but to come to us when we oblige any one to leave them by shewing from their Ministers own Confession the enormous Absurdities of their Doctrin the work is perfected and all the rest on that occasion would be to no purpose And to the end the Method of the Conference and the State of the Question which is there treated may be throughly understood it did not aim directly to establish the Roman Church but only to shew that there is some-where or other a true Church to which we must submit without examining and besides that this cannot be the Calvinistical Church since she will her self have one examin after her which makes her acknowledge the Absurdities we have remark't and by this acknowledgment lose the Title of the Church This done there 's no more question to preach the Roman Church that is that Body of the Church of which Rome is the Head since to him that will choose between two Churches the excluding of the one is the establishing of the other without any need of disputing farther for this purpose Besides that the Roman Church so evidently beare these Characters of the true Church that there is scarce any man of good Sense even amongst our Reformed but agrees that if there be in the world an Authority to which we must submit 't is that of this Church But however when one sees the Absurdities one is forc'd to own in Calvinism for want of having acknowledg'd in the Churches Authority the true Principles of Christian Instruction one soon retires from a Church whose Method and Instruction is so manifestly defective and one is sufficiently sollicited by the Remains of Christianity which one feels within himself to return to the Church from whence he departed The Sixth REFLECTION On Mr. Claude's reducing as much as he can this Dispute to the Instruction of Children VVE see in Mr. Claude's Discourses that press'd by this want of Authority which ruins all Instruction in his Church he affects to reduce our Dispute to the Instruction of Children and thinks he has found an Advantage by making this Instruction depend on Parents and Nurses who are better known at that Age than the Church and her Ministers By this means he thinks to conceal from us the Churches Authority in the first Exercises and first Acts of Faith we make before we have read the Holy Scripture But he ought first to consider that the Argument I made him regarded not only Children Children are not the only Christians that have not read the Scripture Mr. Claude is not ignorant that there were in the beginning of Christianity not only particular men but also whole Nation which according to the Report of St. Irenaeus had not the Holy Scripture and without reading it ceas'd not to be true Christians The Debate then between us is in general concerning all those that have not read the Holy Scripture of what Age soever they may be and what way soever they may have hapned not to have read it For 't is of those and if they will 't is of those whom St. Irenaeus mentions or of their like that I enquire concerning the Faith with which they believe the Scripture and prepare to read it as being inspir'd by GOD. If they have but an human Faith as Mr. Claude says they are not Christians and if they have a Divine Faith as must be acknowledg'd unless we will fall into an horrible Absurdity 't is then true that Divine Faith without ones having read the Scripture immediatly follows the Churches Doctrin and establishes her infallible Authority 'T is on this Authority that every Christian who takes the Scripture in hand begins by believing with a firm Faith that all he is going to read is Divine and he stays not his believing the truth of this Scripture till he has read it all he believes the first Chapter before he has read the second and he believes all before he has read the first Letter or so much
and to believe that they cease to be Pastors when they cease to be good People thô without Scandal this is the pernicious Doctrin of Wicleff which would put all the Church in Confusion Excepting this ill Sense which cannot be Mr. Claude's I grant him all he says for without doubt 't is not JESVS CHRISTs first Intent that there should be Ministers that are Deceivers this happens only thrô the Malice of the Enemy The Destinction of the Ministery is for true Believers JESVS CHRIST did not establish it to call into the Church Deceivers and Hypocrites who doubts it But nevertheless these Deceivers and these Hypocrites may be sufficiently of the Church to be lawful Pastors in it and the true Believers being to live to the end of the World under the Authority of this mixt Ministery he must then without examining whether the Ministers are good or evil shew us a Succession of them always manifest under which GOD has conserv'd his People The more I continue my Reading the more I find this Truth evidently declar'd For entring into the fourth Question I take good notice that Mr. Claude pretends there to shew that the Passages where JESVS CHRIST promises the Church to keep her always on the earth regard only the Society of true Believers but he forbears not always equally to own that this Church never ceases to be visible and that JESVS CHRIST has so promis'd I pretended to shew the visible Church in these words Vid. Sup. 7 8. seq Mat. xvi v. 18. Thou art Peter and upon this Rock I will build my Church and the Gates of Hell shall not prevail against it The Reasons I made use of to prove it may be seen Mr. Claude receives this Doctrin with its Proofs And he acknowledges that the Church which is spoken of in this Passage is in effect a confessing Church a Church which publishes the Faith a Church to which JESUS CHRIST has given an exterior Ministery a Church which uses the Ministery of the Keys and which binds and looses and which consequently has an Outside and a Visibility 'T is such a Church that JESUS CHRIST has promis'd to keep always on the earth Mr. Claude cannot suffer one to tell him that she ceases to be and thus she is always with all that Ministery which is essential to her which makes Mr. Claude conclude with me Vid. Sup. p. 9 10. c. that the Ecclesiastical Ministery shall last without discontinuance till the General Resurrection and to grant without difficulty that this Promise of JESVS CHRIST I will be always with you respects the Perpetuity of the Ecclesiastical Ministery Mat. xxviii v. 9. 20. JESVS CHRIST promises says he to be with the Church to baptize with her and to TEACH WITH HER WITHOUT INTERRUPTION EVEN TO THE END OF THE WORLD There shall then always be Teachers with whom JESVS CHRIST shall teach and true Preaching shall never cease in his Church But shall this Ministery last for ever so pure that none but good People shall be admitted to it We have seen that Mr. Claude pretends it not In effect there is no Promise of this perpetual Purity the Promise is that whatsoever the Manners of these Ministers may be JESVS CHRIST will always act always baptize and ALWAYS TEACH with them and the Effect of this Ministery thô mixt shall be such that under its Authority the Church shall be always visible not indeed says Mr. Claude with a distinct view which goes so far as to say Such and such are 〈…〉 which it notwithstanding CERTAIN and which goes so 〈…〉 say The true 〈…〉 to 〈◊〉 IN THAT EXTERIOR PROFESSION Let us not call if they will by the Name of the Church all that exterior Profession let us abstain from this Name since Mr. Claude is against it and like true reasonable and peaceable Christians let us endeavour to agree on the thing This exterior Profession which may be always 〈◊〉 and as I may say pointed to with the Finger is mixt of Good and Evil the Ministery which governs it is also mixt Mr. Claude agrees all this it may nevertheless be said Under this Ministery and in this exterior Profession are the 〈◊〉 Believers This is what we just now heard from the same Ministers Mouth If then according to his Doctrin the Society of true Believers subsists for ever and continues always visible on the earth if it may always be shewn in an exterior Profession and is visible only there as Mr. Claude says it not only follows that true Believers shall always be upon the earth but that this Profession mixt of Good and Bad where there true Believers are found where they are pointed to where they are markt shall be there also this is what we agree on with Mr. Claude But since all these Passages are dispers'd up and down his Answer see here one in which he has taken care to collect all together 'T is after his fourth Question and in the seventh Consequence that this Minister endeavouring to explicate the XXXI Article of the Confession of Faith where it is said that in our days and before the Reformation the State of the Church was interrupted distinguishes the State of the Church interrupted for a time from the Church which is never interrupted according to his Principles and thâ—s he defines the Church The Church says he is the true Faithful who make Profession of the Christian Truth of Piety and of true Holiness under a Ministery which fâ—â—nishes her with the Alments necessary for the spiritual Life without depriving her of any of them We shall discover in its time the secret of these spiritual Aliments In the mean while 〈…〉 agree with Mr. Claude that the Church always subsist and always subsists visible since by his Definition she is nothing 〈◊〉 but the true Believers who MAKE PROFESSION OF THE CHRISTIAN TRUTH under the Ecclesiastical Ministery Behold an immoveable Foundation Let us see what we can build on it but before we build we are going to see the Objections fall The Twelfth REFLEXION Two of Mr. Claude's principal Objections resolv'd by his own Doctrin MR. Claude objects to me first Man Aus that I desire in vain to establish my Society compos'd of Good and Bad and its eternal Duration on these inviolable Promises of JESVS CHRIST Thou art Peter and I am always with you 'T is not says he of the Wicked that it can be said that Hall shall not prevail against them 'T is not with Wicked men and Hypocrites that JESUS CHRIST has promis'd always to be and these Promises respect none but true Believers Let us add according to Mr. Claude's Principles that if these Promises respect only true Believers they respect them at least in this Ministery and in this exterior Profession and the Objection will be at the same time resolv'd For in fine if the true Believers ought to be always shewn and always visible according to Mr. Claude in this
of Piety of real Sanctity Where then the Profession is wanting there are neither true Believers nor a true Church But moreover this is visibly not so else when Luther appear'd and Zuinglius innovated their Disciples must have made this Declaration This is what we always believ'd we always had our Heart averse from the Roman Faith and from the Pope and from Bishops and from the Real Presence and from Confession and from Communion under one Kind and from Relicks and from Images and from Prayer to Saints and from the Merit of Works Where are those who spake in this manner Can Mr. Claude name us any one of them On the contrary are not all these Reformed seen in all the Pages of their Books to speak as newly retir'd out of the Darkness of the Papacy and does not Luther glory at their head that he was the first who declar'd the Gospel All the Reformed grant it except Zuinglius who disputes this Honor with him He in the mean time acknowledges that he was the sincerest Monk the Priest most intent upon his Sacrifice and in a word the zealousest of all the Papists Do not the others use the same Language Where are then these true Believers of Mr. Claudes who not only durst not declare their Faith whilst they were in the Bosom of the Roman Church but after they were gone out of it durst not say they had always held in their heart the same Faith But see here the entire Ruin of the new Reformation In the Definition that Mr. Claude just now gave us of the true Church he says 'T is the true Believers who make Profession of the Christian Truth under a Ministery which furnishes her with necessary Aliments without depriving her of any one If before the Refomation there was no such Church the true Church against Mr. Claude's Supposition no longer was and if there were such a Church where Profession was made of the Truth and which by her Ministery gave necessary Aliments to the Children of GOD without depriving them of any one what need was there of the Pretended Reformeds Separation Is it perhaps that they bethought themselves all on a sudden to say Mass and teach all the Doctrins which our Reformed have alledg'd for the Cause of their Rupture To think it only would be the greatest of Absurdities But it may be in teaching all these Doctrins they had not yet thought of excommunicating those that oppos'd them Whence then come so many Anathemaes against â—erengarius against the Waldenses and Albigenses against John Wickcliff and John Hus whom our Reformed will count amongst their Ancestors What then had not those who before the pretended Reformation made Profession of the Christian Truth that is according to Mr. Claude of the Reformed Doctrin yet found the Invention of making a Schism and was all the World agreed to suffer them But should all this be true the Affairs of the Reformation would not be a jot the better since still before it had any Existence there must be acknowledg'd a Ministery where without teaching either that the Sinner is justify'd by Faith alone and the sole Imputation of JESUS CHRIST's Justice or that GOD in the new Testament abhors Sacrifices celebrated in a sensible matter or that he alone would be invocated to the Exclusion of that inferior and subordiâ—ate Prayer which is address'd to Saints or in fine without any of those Articles which distinguish our Reformed from us althô they place their Salvation in them they ceas'd not to furnish the Children of GOD with all the Aliments necessary foâ— the Spiritual Life without depriving them of any one What has the Reformation wrought if all these things are not necessary Aliments if even the Sacred Cup and consequently the Supper which according to our Pretended Reformed cannot subsist without the Cup is none of these Aliments necessary to the Christians Faith How they have tormented themselves in vain and how unadvisedly they have caus'd so many Troubles and shed so much Blood if these things are not necessary Perhaps these necessary Aliments must be reduc'd to the Apostles Creed or in general to the Scripture But the Socinian Church remins this Creed and this Scripture so that the Ministery of a Socinian Church would according to this Rule have furnisht the Children of GOD with all necessary Aliments without depriving them of any one What then at last will these necessary Aliments be and if they are furnisht without the Substraction of any one only by proposing the Creed and the Scripture in what Heresy have they been wanting The more Mr. Claude endeavours here to disengage himself Man Ans 4. q. the more he is intangled For after he has establisht as a Fundamental Truth that GOD always preservos in the Ministery all that is necessary to nourish there the true Believers and bring them to Salvation he says it does not thence follow that the Ministery is exempt from all Error even in its Decisions but that whether they concern not sensibly the Conscience or even concern Salvation the Conscience is made use of to reject the Evil and preserve Purity Thus all would be reduc'd to Liberty of Conscience and what Error soever is taught in the Ministery provided they force none to follow their Decisions and suffer all contrary Doctrin good or bad 't is enough to make Mr. Claude say that the Ministery furnishes the Children of GOD with all necessary Aliments without depriving them of any one But according to this Pretention there would be no Society whose Ministery should more furnish all necessary Aliments than a Society of Socinians who brag that they will not damn any one If it be said amongst our Reformed that a Socinian Church overthrows the Foundation by denying the Divinity of JESUS CHRIST 't is also said there that 't was no less overthrown before their Reformation by the Idolatries which as they say reign'd every where And if they will in fine imagin that 't is more dangerous to destroy the Foundation by Substraction with the Socinians than with the Roman Church by these pretended Additions which they call Idolatry besides all the Substractions we have just now shewn there according to the Principles of the Reformed and even before their Reformation it were an unheard of Extravagance to believe that it would be more easy for these true Believers who ought to make the Distinction of Doctrins under a Ministery full of Errors to cut off what is superfluous than to supply what is defective or that the Foundation of the Faith is more certainly overthrown by diminishing than by adding the Scripture having so often comprehended under one common Malediction as well those that diminish as those that add 'T would be better then for 〈…〉 to set also 〈…〉 and the perpeâ—â—al Visibility of the Church and 〈…〉 't is in fine sufficient all this Visibility being 〈◊〉 that GOD has preserv'd the Holy Scripture where the Faithful whether conceal'd or open
Preaching not some Truths or only the principal Truths but the entire Fulness of Christian Truths Whatever they say 't is not to believe blindly to believe thus or 't is to believe blindly like Abraham on the word of GOD himself and the Faith of his Promises How insupportable then is the Doctrin of Mr. Claude who after he has acknowledg'd so many magnificent Promises of JESUS CHRIST's in favour of this sacred Ministery plunging again all of a sudden into the Darkness of his Sect whence he was beginning to get out shews us the Ministery so abandon'd by JESUS CHRIST that there is no Remedy for its Errors but by deposing all at once all those which are in the Chair What agreement have these Promises so well acknowledg'd with so universal a Corruption Mr. Claude then needs only hearken a little to himself for to come unto us after having acknowledg'd in vertue of the divine Promises the Eternity of the Ecclesiastical Ministery in this Estate he represents to us to find there always all Truth he needs only consider that this imperfect Assistance and as one may say this half Succor of JESVS CHRIST to his Church is neither beseeming his Wisdom nor his Power being moreover assur'd that there is no true Sufficiency in the Ministery but by the full manifestation of the Truth reveal'd by GOD agreeably to this Word of the Apostle By manifestation of the Truth we commend our selves to every mans Conscience in the sight of GOD. 2 Cor. iv v. 2 3 4. Whence he concludes presently after that if our Gospel that is most certainly our Preaching be hid it is hid to them that are lost to the end he may make us understand that the Preaching always clear and always sincere in the Catholick Church has no obscurity but in Rebels in whom the Devil the God of this World and the Spirit of Pride hath blinded the minds as the same Apostle proceeds lâ—st the Light of the glorious Gospel should shine unto them 'T is now easy to see that all Mr. Claude's Subtilties serve only to confound him What avails it him that acknowledging the Churches Visibility he endeavour'd to elude the Consequences of this Doctrin by reducing the Church to the true Believers I am contented where-ever he finds Church let him understand the true Believers let him even explicate if he will these Words Mat. xviii v. 4. Tell it unto the Church Tell it to the true Believers single them out amongst the Troop and judge before the Lord or because as himself acknowledges here is too apparently meant the Church represented by her Pastors Mans Ans 4. q. let him say that these Pastors represent the true Believers which are not known and act in their Name What will these Explications after all advantage him since that in fine according to his own Doctrin this true Church shall always be 〈◊〉 visible and these true Believers always under a publick Ministery from which JESUS CHRIST so little permits his Church to be separated that even after these Words Tell it unto the Church but if he neglect to hear the Church let him he unto theâ— as an 〈◊〉 man to shew how redoubtable the Churches Judgment is he immediatly expresses the efficacy of the Ministery by these Words Matt. xviii v. 18. Whatsoever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven and the rest which every one knows Thus I conclude always equally that the Church which we must shew without interruption whether it be only the true Believers or if they will only the Elect or whether it be in a certain Sense the wicked mixt with them Matt. xiii v. 21. and those that believe for a while according to the expression of the Gospel is a Church always gather'd under a visible Ministery and a Body always subsisting of People with their Pastors where the Truth is preacht not in secret Matt. x. v. 27. but upon the house tops Let them turn as much as they will 't is a Church of this Nature and this Constitution we must at all times shew by Mr. Claude's Confession To make her disappear for one sole Moment is utterly to annihilate her and to overthrow the Promises of the Gospel in what they have most sensible and most apparent to make her appear always is invindibly to establish the Roman Church Thus what Mr. Claude explicates to us with so much care besides that it is false leaves the Difficulty entire and his Cause in as had a Condition as it was before his Defence But to the end they may not say we are contented with refuting him let us tell him the Truth in few words The Foundation of the Church is the true Believers and those principally who persevering to the end abide eternally in JESVS CHRIST and JESVS CHRIST in them that is to say the Elect. The Wicked which envinron them are after their manner comprehended under the Name of the Church as the Nails as the Hair as an Eye put out and a wither'd Arm which perhaps receives no more nourishment is comprehended under the Name of the Body All is for these true Believers The Ministery under which they live is theirs in the Sense 1 Cor. iii. v. 22. that St. Paul said All is yours whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas Not that the Power of their Pastors comes from them or that they alone can set them up and depose them GOD forbid This Pastoral and Apostolick Power comes from him Joh. xx v. 21. who said As my Father hath sent me I also send you This is what makes St. Paul say in the same place 1 Cor. iii. v. 4 5. Who is then Apollos and who is Paul The Ministers of him whom you have believ'd and to every one as our Lord hath given to you to be Believers and to us to be Pastors Wherefore he adds farther v. 9. We are GODs Laborers or to say better Co-operators These Ministers and these Workers establisht by GOD are also the Ministers of the Faithful and in this Sense are theirs because they are their Servants by JESVS CHRIST establisht in the Chair not for themselves for as to their own part it would suffice them to be simple Believers 2 Cor. iv v. 5. but for to edify the Saints He that desires to be in the Communion of these Saints need not torment himself to distinguish them from others for thô they are not known and perfectly discern'd but by GOD alone we are sure to find them under the publick Ministery and in the exterior Profession of the Catholick Church We need then only stay there for to be assur'd to find the Saints because this Profession and the ever fruitful Word of the Preachers which never fails to engender some keeps them always inseparably united to the holy Society where they receiv'd it Wherefore when JESVS CHRIST promises to teach always with his Church he comprehends all in this Word and rendring