half that you now oppose and suffer me to answer Prooue by Christ and his Apostles or by any of the Fathers for the first 600 yeeres these present Tenets of the Romane Church viz. 1. That all power of order and Iurisdiction in respect of the Churches is to be deriued from the Church of Rome 2. That no Scripture sense or translation thereof is authenticall vnlesse the same were receiued from the Church of Rome 3. That the Romane Church onely was and is the authenticall Custos of vnwritten traditions 4. That all generall Councels were called by the sole authority of the Pope and that hee might ratify and disannuall whatsoeuer pleased him in them 5. That the Pope onely had power to canonize Saints 6. That the Pope had or hath power to depose Princes Prooue all or any of these and we will neither carp nor cauill about names but answer directly without all delayes euasions or tergiuersations M. Fisher. When you Doctor White or Doctor Featly haue prooued your Church to bee visible in all Ages and named visible Protestants then I promise you to prooue the Visibility of the Catholique Romane Church but that is not done by you yet D. Featly It had bin done but for your delayes and tergiuersations Answer briefly and directly to my former argument and I will descend to my Induction and produce the names of such eminent persons as in all Ages haue maintained the substantiall points of faith in which wee differ from your Romane Church That Church whose faith is the Catholique and Primitiue faith once giuen to the Saints without which none can bee saued is so visible that the names of the professors thereof in all Ages may bee shewed and prooued out of good Authors But the Protestant Church is that Church whose faith is the Catholique and Primitiue faith once giuen to the Saints without which none can be saued Therfore the Protestants Church is so visible that the names of the professors thereof may be shewed in all Ages c. The Maior is ex concessis What say you to the Minor M. Fisher. I distinguish the Minor D. Featly Vpon what tearme doe you distinguish M. Fisher. I distinguish of the proposition not of any tearme D. Featly Heere is againe another straine of new Logick to distinguish of a proposition and apply the distinction to no tearme howsoeuer I am glad to heare you distinguish and not simply to deny that the Protestant faith is the Catholique Primitiue faith Mark I beseech you you that are present that M. Fisher demurres vpon the proposition his conscience will not suffer him simply to deny that the Protestant faith is the Catholique Primitiue faith we simply and slatly and in down-right tearmes deny that your present Tridentine faith is the Catholique Primitiue faith M. Fisher. I answered you before that your Minor is false and impertinent D. Featly I have prooued already that it is pertinent what say you to the truth of it M. Fisher. This is to diuert from the question The question is not now Whether our faith or yours bee the Catholique Primitiue faith but the question now is of the effect to wit the Visibility of your Church which you ought to prooue out of good Authors D. Featly May not a man prooue the effect by the cause Is there no other meanes to proue the effect but by naming men and producing Authors for it M. Sweet An effect is posterius the question is about an effect therefore you ought to proue it à posteriori D. Featly What a reason is this May not an effect be proued by his cause Must an effect bee needs proued by an effect or à posteriori because an effect is posterius M. Sweet Leaue these Logick Disputes Bring the names of your Protestants that is it we expect D. Featly If I should relinquish my former argument to which yet you haue giuen no manner of answer you M. Fisher would report that I was non-plussed as you slandered D. White in a former conference who I tell you M. Fisher is able to teach vs both Whereto M. Fisher replied nothing To preuent all such mis-reports to the wrong of either it was mooued by the hearers that it should be written downe by the common Writer of the Conference that both the Disputants beeing willing to proceed D. Featly was desired by the company because it was late to produce the names of such Protestants as were extant before Luther in all Ages This beeing written and subscribed by them both D. Featly proceeded to his Induction D. Featly An induction is a forme of argument in which wee proceed from enumeration of particulars to conclude a generall after this manner It is so in this and this et sic de eaeteris and so in the rest Therefore it is so in all According to this forme of arguing thus I dispute The Protestant Church was so visible that the names of those who taught and beleeued the doctrine thereof may bee produced in the first hundred yeeres and second and third and fourth et sic de caeteris and so in the rest Therefore it was so in all Ages First I name those of the first Age and I begin with Him who is the beginning of all our Lord and Sauiour Iesus Christ blessed for euer at whose name all knees must bow both in heauen earth and vnder the earth at which words all the company on both sides expressed an holy reuerence After Christ I name the twelue Apostles and Saint Paul and because there were few Writers in the first Age at least whose vndoubted works haue comne to our hands I name onely Ignatius after the twelue Apostles and Saint Paul yet not denying but that many others may be named M. Fisher. These are enow for the first Age Christ the twelue Apostles Saint Paul and Ignatitius Heere at the name of Ignatius some of M. Fishers side seemed very glad and confident saying We are sure enough Saint Ignatius is on our side D. Featly I meane not the new Ignatius Loyola but Ignatius the Martyr betweene whom there is more difference in quality then distance in time M. Fisher. Name of all the Ages or else you do nothing D. Featly I cannot name all at once will you haue mee name men of so many Ages with one breath Will you haue mee eat my whole dinner at a bit Can I name twelue seuerally but I must name first one then two then three and so forward I name as I said before in the first Age for our Religion our blessed Lord and Sauiour the Founder of all Religion the twelue Apostles and after them Saint Paul and Ignatius the Martyr For the second Age I name Iustin Martyr Clemens Alexandrinus and Saint Irenaeus and I beginne first with Christ and his Apostles M. Fisher. You shall not beginne with Christ and his Apostles D. Featly You are not to make my Induction I will begin with Christ and his Apostles where I should
one thing and you proued another The question was of the visibilitie of Church but your arguments were of the eternity of faith Is not this thiug ad ChouÌ„ Ego respondeo de allijs tu disputas de cepis M. Fisher answered of Garlike you spake of Onions For this vnsauory exception M. Sweet was sauced in the conference where it was proued against him that to proue an effect by the cause is a direct naturall and not a diuersiue proofe My argument standeth thus The true Primitiue faith once giuen to the Saints hath had must and shall haue alwaies visible Professors thereof But the faith of the Protestant Church is the true Primitiue faith once giuen to the Saints Therefore the Protestant faith hath had and shall haue alwaies visible Professors thereof The Maior is euident in Scripture and confessed on all hands The Minor I offered to proue but the Iesuites durst not stand to their deniall The Maior and Minor passing without controll none but Master Fisher would haue denied or distinguished vpon the conclusion This argument I affirme not onely direct to proue the conclusion denied but also most pertinent to the maine scope of the question which is to finde out the true Church whereof there can be no sound and infallible proofe but out of Scripture And for the visibility of the true Church either it is a matter of faith or not If not what need wee so much trouble our selues with it If it bee matter of faith Aliunde scilicet possunt suadere de rebus fidei nisi ex literis fidei can they otherwise perswade in matter of faith then out of the Writ of faith that is the holy Scripture For humane Stories and Records in al ages they are not easily found and when we haue found them we find them so defectiue so corrupted and defaced and oftentimes so contrary one to another that they scarce beget humane faith subiect to errour And were they neuer so perfect as Bellar. confesseth they could not beget diuine and infallible faith If no man can bee saued without knowledge that he is in the true Church and no man can knowe that he is in the true Church vnless hee can proue out of good Authours the perpetuall succession and visibility of the Church to which hee adhereth as Iesuites make their breake-neck climax or gradation what shall become of many millions of Christians in their owne Church who neither haue time nor meanes nor learning to search all Records of Antiquitie Could all Lay Papists produce Writers in all Ages who maintained the present Tridentine faith which none yet of the their learned Clerks euer did or could yet they are little neerer For Iewes and Paynims and it may bee diuers sorts of Hereticks can proue too many visible professors of their Heresies and impieties in all ages since Christ and his Apostles times and some before From visibility of Professors no man can certainely conclude truth of sauing Doctrine conformable to Scriptures but from conformity of Doctrine to the scriptures a man may by infallible consequence grounded vpon Gods promises to his Church conclude perpetuall visibility of professors more or lesse And therefore the course I tooke is not onely the streight but the easiest and onely certaine way to bring vs to the true Church which is the house of the liuing God the pillar and ground of truth Thus much for proofe of my proofe by syllogism I wil now giue you an account of my Catalogue and shew my inducements to my induction Against which I heare by you it is excepted that in vndertaking it I leaue the beaten way and take a way by my self where I shall surely lose my selfe neuer come to an end To this obiection the ciuil Law furnisheth me with an Answer Nemo tenetur diuinare No man is bound to prophecie before-hand especially of the successe of anothers labours If leaue be procured for a second Meeting the golden thread of succession which I tooke hold of from Christs blessed hand and his Apostles shall be drawne downe God willing to later Ages euen to Luthers time But what they meane by holding the beaten way I cannot easily diuine If they mean that I ought to proue the visibility of the Protestant Church by hauing recourse meerely to the corrupt Popish Church 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 I say that way perhaps beaten by some yet seems to me a slipperie dirty way and I hope I shall bee able to shew that we need not aurum in stercore quaerere to seek the golden purity of faith amids the dung and drosse of Romish superstitions and deprauations in later ages Many of our Worthies haue shewne mee a more excellent way quos sequor à longe et vestigia pronus adoro These are Doctor Abbot now my Lord of Canterbury in his Answer to Hill Humfrey to Campion his third reason Doctor Vsher now Lord of Meth de successione Ecclesiae The History of the Waldenses Fox Acts and Monuments Crispin of the state of the church Morneys mystery of iniquity with Riuets defense thereof Simon Voious Catalogue of doctors Illiricus witnesses of the truth Wolsius his select readings Lydius his Waldensia and Mouster à Vortleys noble discourse As those that trauell by night through the Hercynian Forest when they are at a stand obserue certaine birds fleeing before them and by the brightnes of their white feathers shining in the dark guide their steppes and finde out a way so in vshering the Witnesses of Truth throughout all Ages when in the darker times mine owne obseruations shall faile mee I doubt not but by the bright wings of those auspicate birds that haue flowne before me I mean the light of their siluer quils who haue wrote of this Subject to finde out my way I haue omitted nothing that hath been materially excepted against the Conference except an omission of the sâ—ate of the question which they say is not so perspicuously and dilucidly deliuered as they could wish That which is set down to this purpose in the entry into the Conference they say is so brief that instar fulguris terret magis quà m illustrat it is like lightning which rather scares than lights the Passenger in his way If this were a iust exception yet it lyeth not against me who had the Opponents part put vpon me but against M. Fisher who be-spoke himselfe to be Respondent For by the orders of all Schools it is the Answerers and not the Opponents task to state the Question He that keeps a Fort in battel is to make his ramparts and guard the walls with redouts and out-works the assailants part is to lay well his batteries and make breaches where he can At the next desired meeting when D. White or my selfe should haue supplyed the Respondents place the Question should haue been explicated to the full by the distinctions conclusions heerin inclosed But as that Meeting by iniurious
suggestions was then so I feare all future Meetings in this kinde will bee stopped by the same Engine The Informers whether they were Popishly or indifferently affected in points of Religion I knowe not sure I am they doo the diuel a great deal of wrong by incroaching vpon his office which is To bee Accusator fratrum As for mine owne part it grieues not mâ— to receiue a wound from them who in due respect to Religion and Calling should haue rather applied a salue But I may truely say in the words of Aria to her dearest Partus Vulnus quod cepi non dolet in quam Sed quòd tu caperes hoc mihi Linde dolet It grieues me that you should suffer any thing for your religious and pious intention to regain your kinsman to our Church and establish your friends in the Truth Yet let not this discourage you in your holy purposes for the good of God's Church Macte virtute As you haue raised Bertram so raise other witnesses of the Truth from the dust and heale those Authors who haue lost peeces of their tongues which the Indices Expurgatorij haue cut off for being too long-tongued against the Church of Rome And though peraduenture you receiue no better reward at least by some than affronts for acknowledgements and rebukes for thanks yet doubt not one day for a full recompence of your paines and charges Trust him for your Aurâ—ola whom you trust for your Crown take his word for the Interest vpon whom wee all rely for the Principal who as he fearfully threatneth that he wil be ashamed of them who deny him before men so he graciously promiseth to all those who confesse him before men that he will confesse them before his Father in Heauen 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 DANIEL FEATLY Touching the Visibility of the CHVRCH The Questions propounded by the Iesuite were 1 WHether the Protestant Church was in all Ages visible 2 Whether visible Protestants are to be named in all Ages c To the first question I answer This question as all other will be best explicated by Distinctions of the tearmes Conclusions or Assertions vpon the distinctions The tearms to be distinguished of are three The subiect A Church The denomination Protestant The attribute Visible Of the tearm Church The first distinction The Church may be considered Either in respect of election inward sanctification Or in respect of outward vocation and profession of the truth In this question wee consider the Church in the latter respect in which alone it is visible for although the elect as they are men and professe the true faith are visible yet men professing the true faith as they are elect and inwardly sanctified and regenerated in their minds are not visible The second distinction A Church professing the Christian faith may be taken either More largely for a company of Professors of the true faith whether they be vnited vnder one gouernment in one Countrey Kingdome or Empire or scattered through the whole world Or more strictly for a company of professors of the true faith hauing actuall communion one with the other vnited vnder one gouernment within certain limits secluded and seuered from other societies and congregations As for example The Reformed Church in France at this day is vnited within it selfe and seuered from the Popish Church and the members thereof among whom yet they liue and ciuilly conuerse In this question wee tie not our selues to prooue a Protestant Church in all Ages in the latter sense It sufficeth that we shew it in the former and prooue that there were alwaies those who maintained the doctrine which wee now teach whether they were vnited or seuered had actuall communion one with another or not kept publique assemblies by themselues apart from the Romane and other Churches or not For as Saint Austen sheweth against the Donatists The same Spirit of God is giuen to all Saints who are knit one to another in charity whether they know one another corporally or not Of the denomination Protestant Distinction the first Protestants may be considered Either according to their name taken from at legall act of protesting either against the Councell of Trent or against the errors and abuses of Poperie when they grewe to their ful measure were most vnsufferable about the time that Luther beganne to oppose the Church of Rome or a little after or from the Protestation of the Bohemians in the yeere of our Lord 1421. set downe by Coclaeus in his L. 5. histor of the Hussits Or according to their faith and doctrine positiuely comprised in confined to scripture and oppositely as it is repugnant to all errors in faith and manners against the holy Scriptures especially against the present errors of the Church of Rome In this question wee consider Protestants in the later sense not in the former The name we confesse of Protestants is not very antient as neither is the name of Papists much lesse of Iesuites but the Doctrine of the Protestants wee maintaine to be as antient as Christ and his Apostles and we may truly say with Ignatius the Martyr 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Iesus Christ is my antiquity As the same piece of gold successiuely passeth thorow diuers stampes and inscriptions so the self-same faith of Protestants in substance hath passed thorow all Ages yet with diuers names as of Becherits Berengarians Petrobrusians Henricians Albingenses Waldenses Dulcinists Lolards Luiddamites Wickleuists Hussites Thaborits Lutherans Hugonots Gospellers and Reformers The faithfull as wee read in the Acts were first called Christians at Antioch yet were they indeed Christians euen from Adam after the promise was giuen that the seed of the woman should break the Serpents head So that although we should grant to Bellarmine that the name of Protestants was not heard of for 1500. yeeres after Christ yet would it not hence follow but that the Protestants faith might bee as antient as Christ and his Apostles yea in a true sense as Adam himselfe sith the Protestant faith is no other then the pure Primitiue Christian faith Distinction the second Protestants in faith and doctrine are of two sorts either Implicitely and vertually and such are all those who holding the Scripture for the sole and entire rule of faith condemn consequently all doctrines of faith against or besides the holy Scriptures especially if they deliuer such positions and doctrines from whence by necessary and infallible consequence some particular error or other of the Romish Church although not perhaps sprung vp in their time may bee refelled Or explicitly and actually and such are they who directly professedly opposed Romish errors as they crept in or not long after especially those who opposed the whole masse of Popish errors and superstitions after they grew to a ripe sore fit to bee lanced about the time of Luther In this question wee restraine not the name Protestants to those who
the Catholique Church of Christ to Africa and therein to the Sect of Donatus so you also restraine the Church of Christ to Rome and the Popes adherents We teach with Saint Austen Non Romanos sed omnes gentes Dominus semini Abrahae media quoque iuratione promisit That God promised with an oath to Abraham not the Romans but all Nations for his seed We beleeue that wheresoeuer the Scriptures are receiued and Christs Sacraments administred God calles some by ordinary meanes and consequently there is a Christian Church though neuer hearing of Rome or Papall Iurisdiction who are ordained to saluation Wee account all that professe the name of Christ Doctrine of the Gospell to be members of the visible Catholick Church yet with this difference some are sound members and parts others vnsound and these more or lesse Wee doubt not but Christ hath his flock vnder the Turk and Tartarian and Mogol in Asia Africa Europe yea Italy and Rome it selfe euen in the denne of Antichrist And therefore we are the true Catholicks who maintaine verè Catholicam Ecclesiam a Church truly Catholicke and you are the Donatists and Masters of the separation of these times who damne all sorts of Christians saue those who are content to receiue the mark of the Romish Beast in their fore-heads What then speake you of three Protestants to be named in euery Age Although our Sauiours words are most true Where there are two or three gathered in my name there am I. And although Tertullians inferences from those words are most true Vbi tres sunt Ecclesia est licèt Laici sint Where there are three there is the Church yea though those three bee Lay-men and In 〈…〉 Ecclesia est the Church is in one or two men yea Alensis and diuers among you remembred by Tostatus affirme that from the time of Christs suffering vntil his resurrection sides in sol◠remansit beata Virgine that onely the blessed Virgin perseuered in the faith and consequently that the Church subsisted for that time onely in her Yet God be blessed for it wee need not to fly to any such defence We shall bring into the field pares aquilas nay plures aquilas more ensignes and banners then you yea incomparably more for the first and best Ages and if you exceed vs in the latter I wish you to remember that in time in liquors the lees and mother gathers towards the bottome and a spoonefull of pure wine is better then a Hogs-head of dregs Yea but we are so farre from beeing able to produce three Protestants in all Ages as we cannot name one in euery age How proue you this Forsooth M. Brierly hath prooued it to your hand A beggerly Rapsodist whose patched cloak is already all to-be-tome by one of our noble Mastiues and the ragges that remaine as I am informed will be shortly by another puld away Were M. Brierly a man of better iudgement and more integrity then our worthy Morton now Lord Bishop of Couentry and Litchfield hath prooued him to be yet beeing a knowne Papist to alleage meerely his work and words to mee is but a dry kinde of proofe and therefore you did well in this place to knock at the Buttery-dore And heere I intreat the Reader to note how the very name of the Buttery reuiues the Iesuite In all the other passages of his Book there is nothing that pretends to wit or mirth but heer he is very pleasant now his dull wit is whetted he was not able in all the Conference nor since in his Answer to send out such a flash Will you know the reason The Spright of the Butterie possesseth him and thus he diuines The Protestants cannot abide with any patience when they bee much pressed in this poynt as appeareth by diuers that haue been vrged and in particular by Doctor Featly in this Conference who hauing been called vpon to produce Names burst forth c. It is true I burst forth not into a passion as you would make the Reader beleeue but into a laughter as did the rest of the company neither did I by any gesture or speech discouer my impatience but your folly who when I alledged you reasons and testimonies were not content with them but called for emptie names c. And what was this but to call for a Colledge Buttery-book which is nothing but a Register of the names of such as are in that societie If the sprite of the Butterie had not obfuscated your braine surprized your iudgement you might haue vnderstood plainly perceiued that I cōpared not a Catalogue of noble Confessors and Martyrs of the Catholique Protestant faith to a Buttery-book but such a Catalogue as you then required and you vsually bring to proue the visiblity of your church viz. a companie of names and nothing else testes sine testimonijs witnesses deposing nothing for you And may not such emptie Catalogues be fitly compared to Butterie-books Note Reader say you what a fit Title hee giueth to a Catalogue of Names of Protestants who indeed are more like to bee found in a Butterie-booke then any good Record of Antiquitie as hauing had their beginning of late in one Martin Luther who after his apostasie more respected the Butterie then any ecclesiasticall storie I maruell not that you Yeomen of the Popes Butterie and Pantry and the Blacke-gard of Rome haue a sharpe tooth against Luther who by burning the Popes haruest of Indulgences hath made the Catalogue farre lesse of those that brued for the Friers Buttery and baked for the Popes Kitchin Certainly if Martin Luther had so fat a belly as you paint him with hee did but hold that which hee got among you for after hee for sooke Sodom which you Apostataes call apostasie hee so hated and detested the gluttony and drunkennesse of Monks and Friers and so sharpely inueighed against them that Erasmus sometimes spake as truly as wittily of him That though hee otherwise highly esteemed of him yet hee could not but confesse that hee was much too blame in two things that hee presumed to touch the Popes Crowne and the Monkes bellie Wherefore seeing Luther deserueth no better of your fraternities strike him out of your Butterie-booke and put Father Parsons in his place the grand Master of your new equiuocating Religion or religious equiuocation because good man his name was strucke out of the Buttery-booke of Bailliol-Colledge in Oxford and hee expeld for falsifying the Butterie-booke and thereby cozening and purloining the Students of that Colledge The Protestant Relation Paragraph the seauenth touching the comparison betweene a proofe à priori and à posteriori Doctor Featly That Church whose faith is eternall is so visible that the Names of some professors thereof may bee shewed in all Ages But the faith of the Protestant Church is eternall and perpetuall Ergo. Master Fisher. Faith eternall Who euer heard of faith eternall Saint Paul saith that faith
to bee reiected vpon any pretence Not long after it was not authenticall For Clemens the eighth corrected it in many hundred places Now goe and vpbrayd vs with our late reuised translation but see withall that you dispence with the Pope that he may dispence with you One yeere the immaculate conception of the blessed Virgin is maintained in bookes allowed by your Church another yeere it is impugned Lastly in one yeere it is determined in bookes set out by authoritie among you that the oath of alleageance may lawfully bee taken by Roman Catholiques in the next yeere wee reade that hee is no good Catholique that will take that oath The title of vniuersall Bishop was held insolent arrogant profane Antichristian Luciferian in Saint Gregories time but now you hold it to be the holy title of Christs Vicar Yea but say you The Protestants haue no certaine and infallible rule sufficient to preserue them from change Belike then the Scripture is no certaine and infallible rule but vnwritten traditions are the Word of God is no sure ground the Popes Decree is The Apostle then hath much deceyued vs who saith Let God bee true and euerie man a lyer If euerie man a lyer euerie Pope too 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 homo not vir onely to exclude Pope Ioane from priuiledge of inerrability You adde to piece out your former argument that in my demonstration I proue magis notum perignotius viz. the visibilitie which is easily knowne by the truth of Doctrine which is more hardly knowne especially by onely Scripture of the sense whereof according to the Protestants who say The whole Church may erre no particular man can bee infallibly sure The edge of this argument hath beene turned alreadie in the Remonstrance whereunto I adde First that visibilitie is more knowne to sense then the truth of doctrine but not to the vnderstanding of a Christian. Secondly the visiblenesse of a particular present Church is the obiect of sense but not the perpetuall former and future visibility of any one Church much lesse of the vniuersall And therefore it is much easier out of plaine and euident Texts of Scripture together with the three Creeds knowne to the simplest among vs where the Liturgie is in a knowne Tongue to deduce the truth of doctrine necessarie to saluation then hee can produce a successiue Catalogue of visible professours out of good Authors in all Ages Yea but no man say you can hee infallibly sure of the sense of Scripture because Protestants hold The whole Church may erre In thus arguing you bewray either ignorance or an ill conscience Ignorance if you knowe not that wee distinguish betweene the essentiall or formal Church and the Church representatiue of poynts necessarie to saluation and not necessarie of euident Texts of Scripture of obscure But if you knew these distinctions as indeed you cannot but knowe them hauing read D. Field and other Protestant Writers you dispute against your conscience Because in obscure and difficult Texts of Scripture the Church may erre will it therefore follow that no man can bee sure of the sense of plaine and euident Texts In which if wee may beleeue Saint Austin all those things are found which concerne faith and manners Will it follow because wee hold that your Church representatiue that is the Pope and his Consistorie or the Pope and his Councell may erre that therefore the essentiall and formal Church of Christ consisting of all the visible Christians in the world in propounding doctrine necessarie to saluation out of Scripture may erre The Church following her guide the Word of God is sure not to erre whether vniuersall or particular For which preseruation from errour we doubt not but that there is a farre higher degree of spiritual assistāce to the generall Councels then nationall yet in both it sometimes falleth out that as Austen obserueth Priora à posterioribus emendentur the former are corrected by the later Thirdly you beg an Argument from your selfe drawne from a beggerly fallacy called Petitio principij or begging your maine question You say that my former Syllogisme was a petitio principij and therefore no demonstration but I prooued it then and since confirmed it that it was a Demonstration and therefore no petitio principij Let the Reader heere obserue how your Answers and Obiections interfere and supplant one the other Master Sweet will haue my Argument to bee a transitio à genere in genus but you a petitio principij Againe elsewhere you call this Argument A digression from the question a diuersiue proofe and yet here you will haue it to bee identicall Wherefore as Xenophanes opposed a motion made by Eleates in behalfe of Leucothea to celebrate her funerals with teares and lamentations and withall to sacrifice to her as a Goddesse this motion sayth hee ouerthroweth it selfe If wee sacrifice to Leucothea as an immortall Goddesse we must not bewaile her death and if we bewaile her death as being a mortal woman wee must not sacrifice to her as to a Goddesse priuiledged from death In like manner whosoeuer readeth your said seuerall Answers may obiect against them If the Argument aboue-named was a petitio principij it could not be a transitio à genere in genus and if it were a transitio à genere in genus it could not be a petitio principij If it were a diuersiue proofe it could not bee identicall if it bee identicall as you here affirme it cannot be diuersiue for it implyes an apparant contradiction to say that a man in proouing idem per idem doth digredi ab eodem But you yeeld a reason why this Argument beggeth or supposeth that which is in question For say you in asking which is the true visible Church or Congregation of the true faithfull wee aske at least vertually which is the true faith By the like reason you might proue euery Demonstration à priori to bee a petitio principij For in propounding any question touching the effect wee enquire vertually and implicitly of the cause And therefore Aristotle in lib. 2. Poster Analyt acutely prooueth omnem quaestionem esse quaestionem medij that euerie scientificall question is in effect a question of the medium or the cause By the like Argument you might prooue that all Arguments drawne à definitione ad definitum are petitiones principij because in propounding any question touching the definitum wee at least vertually inquire of the definition If the tearmes in my Syllogisme were but formally distinct the Syllogisme could bee no petitio principij how much lesse then can it bee termed petitio principij when as it is certaine they are distinct really as your selfe confesse in your fourth Argument to which now I addresse my selfe Fourthly you impeach my Demonstration by pushing againe at the Maior saying Although faith be prerequired to be in some or other members of the true Church yet inward faith alone without
Mother of the rest nay the whole Church There hath she her paterne from the Donatists of appropriating to her self the title priuiledges of the Church excluding all other from the hope of saluation So the Romanists cast into hel all the Christians of Greece Russia Armenia Syria Aethiopia because they refuse to be subiect to the tyranny of the pope as also the States kingdoms of Europe which haue freed themselues from their Aegyptiacall bondage That the Romanists abuse vs with pretences of antiquity vnitie vniuersalitie making the simple beleeue that al is antient which they professe and that the consent of all Ages is for them whereas it is easie to prooue that all the things wherein they differ from vs are nothing but nouelties and vncertainties that the greatest part of the Christian world hath been diuided from them for certaine hundreds of yeeres and more to that purpose which in that preface he promiseth and in the tractate prooueth To which booke me thinkes M. Fisher or some other of his pew-fellowes should vndertake in order proutiacet to make answer or else neuer to haue beene so hardie to cite that Author whose lines vpbraid them with iâ—abilitie or negligence so long as they suffer so learned and laborious a treatisely bent point blank against the walles of Rome to remain vnbattered Now to your alleuiation you say in that speech of yours concerning men not able by their owne abilities to finde out the infallible faith you meant not to imply that any were able of themselues without helpe of Gods grace to attaine the true faith I hope you meant not because I trust that you are not sunke so deepe into Pelagianisme Yet you should haue circumcised your lips and tongue and kept better the Apostles rule to hold fast the for me of sound words for what Christian eare can endure to heare of men able by their owne ability of wit or learning to find out faith Wit and learning I grant are Gods good gifts 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 not to bee vnder-valued much lesse contemned yet let me tell you that wit and learning without grace such is the corruption of our nature rather hinder then further our conuersion as Saint Austen writes in his confessions not with inke but with teares and on the contrary grace without eminent wit or learning outstrips naked wit learning in our race to heauen Indocticoelum rapiunt et nos cum doctrinis nostris c. As for that which you adde that Visibility though alone it prooue not the true Church yet that it much helpeth to the proof thereof I much desire you to help me heere in shewing me how it much helpeth for Visibility is but a common accident and I finde no topick place in Aristotle ab vno accidente communi ad subiectum Suppose a meere naturall man were to choose his religion and his Church what will Visibility helpe him Besides all sorts of Christian Churches Iewish Synagogues Mahumetane and Gentile Congregations are visible will you say That is the truer Church which is more visible If you carrie it away from vs by that marke the Greek Church will carrie it away from you the Mahumetanes from the Greeke Christians and the Idolatrous Gentiles from all But this poynt hath bin handled before in my sixt eight Assertion touching the Visibility of the true Church therfore omitting all farther prosecution of this point and my proofe by Syllogisme I come now to iustifie my induction The Protestant Relation Paragraph the tenth touching the induction and breaking vp of the Conference The Protestant Church was so visible that the names of those who taught and beleeued the doctrine thereof may be produced in the first hundred yerees and second and third and fourth et sic de caeteris and so in the rest therefore it was so in all Ages First I name those of the first Age and I begin with Him who is the beginning of all our Lord and Sauiour Iesus Christ blessed for euer c. M. Fisher. Name of all Ages or else you do nothing D. Featly I cannot name all at once Will you haue me name men of so many Ages at one breath c M. Fisher. You shall not begin at Christ and his Apostles D. Featly You are not to make my Induction I will begin with Christ and his Apostles c. M. Fisher. Name the rest in all Ages and then I will answer D. Featly First answer to the first Age and then I wil proceed to the second c. M. Fisher. I will not answer you any thing till you haue made your Catalogue D. Featly M. Fisher I charge you as you will answer it before Christ himselfe at the dreadfull day of iudgement to answer directly whether Christ and his Apostles taught our faith or yours c. Notwithstanding this deep Charge M. Fisher still refused to answer to the argument of instance in Christ and his Apostles c. Master FISHER'S Answer by a Counter-relation After this D. Featly named for the first Age our Lord and Sauiour Christ and his twelue Apostles and Saint Paul and Saint Ignatius After which he staied awhile as if he had studied for more Names but not remembring any more whom he would set down for the first Age he said These not denying others may serue for the first Age. Then turning to M. Fisher he said Let vs dispute of these No said M. Fisher name first of all Ages What said D. Featly Will you not dispute of Christ and his Apostlâ—es Yes said M. Fisher in due place but first name the rest in all ages and then I will answer you What said D. Featly Doo not Christ and his Apostles deserue the first place M. Fisher. I will not answer before you haue named the rest Then said D. Featly in a heat Well you will not dispute of Christ and his Apostles then you grant Christ and his Apostles to be Protestants And so instantly without expecting M. Fisher's Answer he turned himselfe to the Audience and said Hee grants Christ and his Apostles to be Protestants Whereupon diuers of the Audience made such a shout as if they had gotten a victory with such a noise as M. Fisher endeuouring to answer for a time could not be heard But he rising vp and with his hand and voice crauing silence made such as would heare him vnderstand how falsely D. Featly had slandered him to his face and either then or vpon some like occasion he said What may I expect behinde my back when you thus mis-report mee to my face And in this sort when many of the company were willing to depart D. Featly beeing called vpon as it seemed by some of his companions to goe away did arise and offer to be gone yet in his rising he turned to M. Fisher saying Will you dispute vpon Christ and his Apostles or no To which M. Fisher said I will if you will stay and stretching out his hand hee took D.
that the Thunder of the Popes excommunications so blasted the Hugonotes that their faces were growne as black and vgly as the diuell that FRANCIS IVNIVS had a round clouen foot like an Oxe that BEZA recanted his religion before his death that the reuerend Doctor KING late Bishop of London died a Papist or that the Protestants at Black-â—ryers by knocking certaine pins out of the timber caused that late lamentable fall of the floar wherin about 200 Papists were assembled and neere a 100 slaine They who teach pious frauds and write of holy hypocrisy and doctrinally deliuer the lawfulnesse of equiuocation may securely report whatsoeuer maketh for the Catholique Cause The more incredible and palpable the Lie is the more merit in him that maketh it and in them that beleeue it Popery is a doctrine composed of Lies and Philosophy teacheth that all things are fed and maintained by such things of which they are bred and made The aliments of Popery must bee correspondent to the elements of which it consisteth and verily as hee said in the Poet Si ius violandum est Regni causa violandum if a man must transgresse the Law of honesty and Iustice he must doeit for a Kingdome so it is like they are resolued if a man must lye certainely hee must lye for the good of the Catholick Religion and if lie in so good a cause lye to some purpose The first report concerning the issue of this Conference was of a silly woman said to be present and conuerted thereby to the Romish faith who forsooth stamped vpon her English Bible and solemnly renounced the Protestant Religion vpon it protesting she would neuer trust hereticall Translation any more But alas this was but a silly lye made by some pâ—isne â—ouice of the petty forme to see how a lye in this kinde would take The higher Schollers in the Iesuites Schoole thought it behooued them to make a Catholick or vniuersall lye for the Catholick cause by giuing out that the whole company of Protestants present at that Conference was gayned to the Romish faith yea and many more Protestants then were there also for 100 some say 400 is the summe of the supposed Conuerts whereas there were not neere a hundred persons in both parties in all at the Conference and as wee conceiue neere 20. were professed Papists and knowne Recusants and for the rest which were Noble-men Gentle-men and Gentle-women of quality with some few Diuines there was not one of them any way staggered in Religion by this meeting but on the contrary they haue openly profest that they were much established and confirmed in the truth of the Protestant Religion by it and Master BVGGES himselfe whose satisfaction by this Conference was principally intended who before had doubted of our Church after this Disputation professeth himselfe fully resolued through the mercy of God to whose grace we commend all that loue the Truth in sincerity As for those who contrary to the euidence of truth and so many testimonies beyond all exception are yet resolued to beleeue what the Iesuites report for their owne aduantage in their owne cause the Iesuites wee say who maintaine that a man may vtter an vntruth in words without the guilt of Veniall sinne so hee be sure to make it vp by a mentall reseruation vpon such as stand thus affected wee bestow the blessing of Cardinall CARAFFA who when the people flocked to him in great multitudes to be blest by him beeing ariued at Paris comming as Legate from the Pope lifting vp his eyes deuoutly to heauen and making according to the manner crosses in stead of the accustomed forme of Episcopall benediction blessed the honest vulgar French-men in these words Quandoquidem iste populus vult decipi decipiatur If so be this people will bee gulled or deceiued with such shewes and fopperies let them be gulled or deceiued THE PARTICVLAR CONTENTS OF THIS BOOKE THe occasion and issue of the late Conference had Iune 27. 1623. betweene Doctor White Deane of Carlile and Doctor Featly with Master Fisher and Master Sweet Iesuites Page 1. A Relation of what passed in the said Conference touching the Visibility of the Church page 6. Additions to the former Relation of the Conference page 29. An Attestation concerning some particulars set downe in the said Relation entituled The Fisher catched in his owne Net page 38. A Remonstrance sent in a Letter by Doctor Featly to his worthy friend Sir Humfrey Lynde touching the former Conference held at his house wherein is maintained that 1 Conferences in poynt of Religion are lawfull and vsefull and therfore to be iustified 2 The Method also vsed in the former Conference maintained and iustified 3 The proofes alledged in the Conference were direct not diuersiue H* A succinct or briefe discussion of the two Questions which were propounded by the Iesuite by Distinctions Assertions 1 viz. Whether the Protestant Church was in all Ages visible L1 2 Whether visible Protestants are to bee named in all Ages O2 A Defence of Doctor Featlie's proceedings in the Conference R3 wherin Rules are prescribed for Disputations and it is prooued and confirmed that 1 No conclusion of Faith may bee prooued out of meere humane testimonies S1 2 The Protestants Church might be visible in all Ages yet their Names not now extant S3 3 The Romish Church was inuisible in the first and best Ages T1 A Prooeme to Master Fisher's Answer to the Conference wherein is shewed that absurd Paradoxes are miserably defended by Master Fisher. T3 An Answer to the Title of Master Fisher's booke masked vnder the Name of A. C. V3 An Answer to the Preface thereof V 4. A Table of the principall matters contained in the same which are reduced vnto fiue heads viz. 1 Vntruths 2 Contradictions 3 Idle obseruations and exceptions 4 Impertinences or mal ' à proposes 5 Vaine repetitions Y 3. A Reply to Master Fisher's Counter Relation touching the occasion of the Conference page 37. The Answer of Sir Humfrey Lynde touching diuers passages in the Protestant Relation about the occasion and issue of the Conference excepted against by the Iesuite p. 39. A Reply to Master Fisher's Answer or the defence of the Protestant Relation diuided into Paragraphs Paragraph 1. touching the entry into the Conference page 45. 2 Of the state of the Question page 49. 3 The conditions to bee obserued by the Disputants page 52. 4 Of the Inuisibility of the Romane Church for more then 500 yeeres next after Christ page 54. 5 Concerning the parts of the Question page 59. 6 Of the pretended necessity of naming Protestants in all Ages page 63. 7 Of the comparison betweene a proofe à Priori and à Posteriori page 74. 8 Of the Demonstration of the Visibility of the Church by the eternity and immutability of faith page 88. 9 Touching a testimony alledged by M. Fisher out of D. Field page 113. 10 Of the Induction breaking
excuse the matter saying Fâ—gisse Haereticos atque in praelatos ac monachos se abdidisse that the Hereticks which seemed to bee flowne away in this Age were not indeed vanished out of the world but lay close and hid themselues vnder Bishops Rochets and Monkes Coules where neither Prateolus nor Norice durst to search for them As this ninth Age so the tenth and some others after were very barren of learned Writers And therefore no maruaile if the haruest wee gather in these Ages of the professors of the truth and defenders thereof by writing bee very thinne for to leaue an Armie of bastard apocryphall Authors as the Papists do to maintain the Popes title or in so weighty a cause to rely on the ragged regiment of Authors mustred vp in Orthodoxographia bibliotheca veterum et Epistolae obscurorum virorum c. I hold it rather a dishonor and disaduantage then any credit or aduantage to the truth The fift Assertion Since Boniface the Third's time in the seauenth Age and much more since Hildebrand in the tenth such was the greatnesse of the Pope and transcendent power of the See of Rome that few durst or might write freely against the errors and vsurpations thereof And therefore it is not to be maruailed that we haue not many but it is rather to bee maruailed that wee haue any who haue displayed the abominations of the Whore of Babylon The Answer of a Poet in Augustus time is very famous who beeing demanded why he replied not vpon Augustus who had writ against him a bitter Satyr cleanly wiped his lips and said Periculosum est 〈◊〉 â—um scribere qui potest proscribere It is a dangerous thing to giue him a dash with a pen who is like to requite it with a slash of a sword to obiect against him in inke who can returne an answer in blood Pone Tigelinum teda lucebis in illa Qua stantes ardent fixo gutture fumant Set the Pope or Church of Rome out in her colours and shee will make you a light of the Church by burning you at a stake Platina and Occham long ago vpon iust cause and lamentable experience cast this bloodie aspersion on the Pope and his Adherents Occham frameth his inditement in these words Vt intentum 〈◊〉 horrendum ad finem possint perducere defendentes vâ—ritatem prosequuntur interimunt innoxium sangâ—â—nem fundunt That they may bring their horrible purpose to passe they prosecute such as maintaine the truth murther them and shead their innocent bloud Platinaâ— in these words 〈◊〉 mandataâ— Christi quise Vicarium eius dicit credâ—â—â— in verba Dei exurit Hee condemneth the commands of Christ who professeth and calleth himselfe his Vicar and burneth such as beleeue in the words of God Laurentius Valla for writing freely against the forged donation of Constantine lost his libertie and Countrie too Occham was so bold to strike at the Popes triple Crowne and to oppose some doctrines of the Church of Rome that hee was therefore excommunicated by the Pope and so grieuously persecuted that he was constrained to flie to the Emperor for succour to whom hee made this reasonable motion Tu defende me gladio ego defendam te calamo Defend thou mee by thy sword or power I will defend thee by my word or pen. Were the Waldenses and Albingenses murthered by thousands for Heresie No Rainerius cleareth them of that Omnia rectè de Deo credunt They beleeue all things rightly concerning God Why then Solummodo Romanam Ecclesians blasphemant Clerum They speake euill of the Church of Rome and the Clergie The opinions of the Albingenses saith Hallian did not so much stir vp the hate of the Pope and great Princes against them as the libertie of speech did wherewith they vsed to blame the vices and disolutenes of the said Princes and Clergie yea to tax the vices and actions of the Popes themselues This was the principall point that brought them into vniuersall hatred What was it so inflamed the Pope against the Hussites that hee proclaimed two Croisadoes and imploied great armies against them Their administring the Sacrament in both kindes maugre the sacrilegious decree of the Councell of Constance No. That he could and did dispence with all It was that article of the Hussites gathered out of their writings by Alanus Papaest â—estia de qua habetur in Apocalypsi 12. Datum est ei bellum facere cum sanctis The Pope is the beast whereof it is said in the 12. of the Reuelation It is granted to him the beast to warre with the Saints Hincillae lachrymae Nay rather Hinc ille crâ—or This kindled such a fire against the deare seruants of Christ that nothing could or did quench it but their bloud shed in great abundance For some hundreds of yeeres the chiefe Records and Monuments of the Westerne Church haue been in the hands of our Romish aduersaries who haue partly burned them partly corrupted them and partly kept them from vs. And herein they deale with vs as Theramenes his Colleagues dealt with him who hauing a purpose to question him for his life first strooke his name out of the Catalogue of the gouernours of the Citty and then articled against him And when he pleaded the priuiledge of all those whose names were written in the Catalogue they barred him from this defence saying That he could not plead that priuiledge because his name was not in the Catalogue In like manner our aduersaries take away from vs or make away from vs our records and then they non-sute vs for want of euidence Gregorie the great wrote manie things preiudiciall to the Popes pretensions and vsurpations and therefore Sabinianus his successor burnt diuers of his bookes as Platina intimates and Sixtus Senensâ—s expresly affirmeth That his most wicked emulators did burne the greater part of Gregories works presently after his death Auentine brandeth Pope Hildebrand with the marke of a corrupter of Chronicles and a razer out of them the things that were done Cocleus writeth of Hus Dum duceretur ad locum poenae videns in coemiterio libros suos comburi subrisit proper eam stultitiam While hee was led to the place of execution seeing in the Church-yard his bookes to bee burned hee smiled at that follie And his smiling may seeme propheticall for notwithstanding all the meanes that they could possibly vse to root him and his writings out of the memory of men yet both through Gods mercy are preserued and some few works also of Wicklef But the great bulk of them not much inferior to the quantity of Saint Austens works could not escape the fire beeing so narrowly searched after by the command of diuers Popes yea and Kings too If we might haue accesse to the Popes Library we doubt not but that wee should finde many more bookes written both in Latine and Greek against the Pope
it were was onely vpon fraâ—ltie or humane feare of trouble and not any firme and settled resolution grounded vpon the Conference sith both before and after he shewed a contrary minde as hath beene said Doctor FEATLIE'S Reply What you repeat in this passage touching my proceedings in the Conference hath beene before vpon diuers occasions answered and I endeuour as much as may bee to auoyd your familiar figure of battologie or repetition For that which concerneth M. Bugges that hee receiued satisfaction by the Conference and gaue many thankes to Sir Humfrey Lynd for procuring it and not as you imagine when the trouble was about the Conference but the selfesame night in the very roome wherein we conferd is not onely proued by Sir Humfrey Lynde his testimonie but also by M. Bugges owne subscription both to the Protestant Relation in generall and to this passage in particular and that of late since all pretended trouble was blowne ouer Now M. Fisher you are a very merry man that will goe about to face a man out of his beliefe and dispute him out of that peace and comfort which hee feeleth in his consciecne M. Bugges may well answer you in the words of Saint Austen spoken to another purpose Tu ratiocinare ego credam c. Doe you syllogize I will beleeue Demand you a reason if you list I will giue thankes Argue as long as you please How I could bee resolued by the Conference I am sure I was resolued and so still continue When the Philosopher in A. Gellius sophistically disputed against motion in this manner Whatsoeuer is mooued locally is either mooued in the place wherein it is or wherein it is not It cannot be mooued in the place wherein it is not because that is not to mooue locally or in place where the body hath no existence it can haue no motion Neither can a body be said to mooue in the place wherein it is because while a body remaines in its place it cannot mooue from it One of his Auditors there present whose arme a little before had beene put out of ioynt though hee could not verbally answer that his sophisme yet hee really refeld it thus At ego sensi motum luxato brachio I am sure I felt a motion when I hurt my arme and put the bone out of ioynt In like manner when you argue that M. Bugges could not be mooued by any thing that was spoken in the Conference because his Question was not answered or the Catalogâ—e of names not produced or because D. Featlyes proofs were diuersiue or because the Popish Audience still called for names or because you and M. Sweet are not yet satisfied or because I know not what M. Bugges in a word refutes all your reasoning At ego sensi motum I am sure I felt my selfe mooued by it and the doubt which sometimes shook my faith remooued So that I waâ— thereby not as the other put out of ioynt but in ioynt and of lame made whole Neither will it hence follow that M. Bugges must needs bee a man of meane capacity if hee were satisfied by so short a Conference but rather that God oftentimes vseth weake meanes to ouerthrow Satans strong holds Firmus the Maniche was reclaimed from that heresie by a digression of Saint Austens in a certaine Homily Alipius was drawn from heathenish sports and pastimes by an example in a discourse of Saint Austens on the By. That noble Venetian Marquesse who left both his Marquisate and all that hee had for the loue of the Gospell and comfortably ended his daies at Geneuae was at the first reformed both in his faith and life by an elegant Simile in a Sermon of Peter Martyrs Sometimes an exquisite Sermon taketh not the Auditory and sometimes a farre meaner taketh now and then a stronger Argument worketh not vpon the vnderstanding and will and yet a weaker proofe doth at the same time You cannot bee ignorant of the Story in Ruffinus of an Arrian Philosopher of whom the learned Bishops in the Councell could get no ground at all yet a simple vnlearned man by two or three blunt Interrogatories conquered and quite confounded him Wil you from this and the like instances inferre that the men so conuerted were men of meane capacity The contrary euidently appeares in Story you should rather from hence gather with religious Austen who may truly be said to 〈◊〉 written rather ex gratia then degratia so gratiously doth hee write of grace totum Deo dare qui voluntatem hominis bonam et praeparat adiuuandam et adiuuat praeparatam in our first conuersion and euery good work after to ascribe all to God who both prepares the will to be aided by grace and aideth it beeing prepared Yea but say you M. Bugges much desired a second meeting therefore it seemes he was not so resolute a Protestant as wee make him If this were a good Argument you might prooue all of our side to be vnsettled in our Religion yea M. Deane of Carlile and my selfe also who much desired and yet doe a second meeting to perfect the work then begun Though a man be neuer so well resolued in poynt of Religion yet hee may desire to heare Diuinity-Disputations and make good vse of them Yea but M. Bugges desired M. Fisher and M. Sweet to giue him a Catalogue of names of professors in the Romane Church saying that if after this the Doctors would not giue him a Catalogue of Protestants hee would dislike their cause If M. Bugges spake so which I haue reason to doubt hee spake it as hauing certaine knowledge that we had a Catalogue which hee did or might haue seene in the Conference Nor indeed doth the desiring or requiring of a Catalogue inferre any doubt of the conclusion Though a plaine vnlearned Christian beleeue most firmely that Christ was borne of the seed of Abraham and Dauid yet may he desire more particular information by hearing the beginning of Saint Mathews or Saint Lukes Gospell read and expounded to him Moreouer when I vndertooke to name those who taught Protestant Doctrine in all Ages if I should faile therein he should haue had iust cause to dislike my proceedings Yea but say you there was no cause giuen in the Conference at all of any effectuall resolution to be made by the old Gentleman therefore he could not bee so resolued by it as is pretended For answer heereunto though I am loth yet you constraine mee to recapitulate the chiefe points touched in the Conference Before the Conference M. Bugges was somewhat staggered in the poynt touching the Visibility of the Church by your brauadoes and Rhodomontadoes that all the world were Papists before Luther That there was neither vola nor vestigium of a Protestant Church before that time That no Protestant Minister durst encounter you in this point if any should be so hardy as to enter into these lists with you you would presently blank silence and nouplus them