where then I liued to Douay So that vntill the fourteenth of May I could not begin to thinke seriously of any reply to him thoughe I had in the meane while runne ouer some parte of his booke and alsoe noted somethinge therein to that purpose Where Mr. Pilkinton may peraduenture say as he saith of the Manuall that it well appeareth to haue â—eeâ— doâ—â—e in haste and yett not in such shorte tyme but another might well haue made diuers such replies in the same space as Apelles answered to one who sheweinge him a picture and sayinge he had made it in one day But be ytt that Mr. Pilkintons witt and dexteritie coulde haue performed much more in the same tyme yett I confesse that mine coulde doe noe better the other imployments wherein the greatest parte of my tyme is taken vpp lyinge vppon me Neither doth Mr. Pilkinton neede much to bragge of his dexteritie and expedition in this kinde seeinge he hath bestowed fower whole yeeres or verie neere in answereinge only seauen sheetes of paper and that also so shallowly and seelily that there is much lesse difficultie to refute his aunswere then to Coppie out or transcribe his wordes I haue replyed to all he saith as it lyeth in his booke so farr as I goe with him relatinge his owne wordes least he shoulde complayne of ill dealinge as if somethinge of moment were lefte vntouched And both he and the reader may likewise vnderstande that I might with as much facilitie haue refuted the rest of his booke had it been either necessarie or proffitable to haue bestowed the labour in transcribinge it and cost in printinge it I would wishe thee good reader to take speciall notice of the preface which may serue thee as a key not only to this small treatise but also to other workes of greater moment and generally to all controuersies In the answereinge whereof as Mr. Pilkinton hath been more laborious so hath he also shewed himselfe more impertinent and peruerse Reade the whole with attention if thy leisure will permitte thee and compare diligentlie his proofes and myne together after doe not spare to giue thy Censure thereon as thou shalt thinke good in gods name And if thou receiuest anie proffit by my small labour I shall thinke it well bestowed and as fullie recompensed as I expect or desire in this worlde God euer keepe thee and me also This first of Iuly 1619. APPROBATIO Ego infrascriptus S. Th. Doctor Collegij Anglorum Duaceni Praeses legi libellum inscriptum Mr. Pilkinton his Pararelle Disparelled Autore Magistro Antonio Champneyo S. Th. Doctore Sorbonico nihilque in eo reperi aduersum fidem Catholicam vel bonos mores sed eandem fidem Catholicam in nonnullis propugnatam aduersarij ineptias fraudes detectas Quocirca iudico eundem vtiliter praelo committi posse Datum Duaci die decima Decembris Anno salutis 1619. Matthaeus Kellisonus Mr. PILKINTONS PARALLEL DISPARALLELD Mr PilkintoÌ„ after his owne Epistle Dedicatorie to his Gratious Patron of Canterburie and his shapeles aunswere to my shorte Epistle to the reader for soe exact he would seeme to be that he letteth nothinge passe without an answere he beginneth his encounter as followeth PILKINTON A briefe Synopsis of popishe positions auouched by the Manualist directlie contradicted by the Fathers CHAMPNEY I may err and fayle as all other men may but obstinate in errour by gods grace I shall neuer be Neither will I euer be but a scholer and childe of the orthodox Fathers If therefore by ouersight ignorance or errour which are defects incident to all men I haue vttered anie thinge contrarie to theire doctrine I doe here willinglie and wittinglie recall and retract it But lett vs heare the directe contradictions you speake of PILK All articles of faith are not contayned so much as indirectlie and implicitlie in the holy Scriptures CHAMP You were verie ill aduised to vse such euident corrupt dealinge in the verie first line of your booke This position sett downe by you is no more myne then your Parallel is my Manuall But you prooue your selfe a fitt scholler of your old Maisters My position is this All such articles as are of faith are not contayned so much as indirectlie or impliciâ—lie in holie scriptures but onlie so far as the scriptures contayne and testifie the aucthoritie of the Churche and Tradition To this position lett vs nowe see your Antithesis of the Fathers PILK In those thinges that are plainlie set downe in the holy scripture all poinctes are founde that concerne either beliefe or life CHAMP If your wittes had been at home when you wrote this you would easilie haue seen this doctrine of S. August to haue hadd no opposition with my position For my proposition were it sett downe in these wordes All articles of faith are contayned in scriptures so far as they testifie the Authoritie of the Churche and Traditions Which you will not as I suppose deny to be the verie same in sence with the position sett downe in the Maâ—uall I would learne of you wherein you putt the antithesis betwixt this position and that of S. August But lett S. August himselfe be iudge of this matter Althoughe saith he no example of this thinge speaking of the validitie of Baptisme ministred by heretickes be brought out of holie scriptures yett doe we followe the truth of the same scriptures in this point whilst we doe that which pleaseth the whole Churche which the authoritie of the scripture doth commend Wherby you see S. August to teache some articles of faith not otherwise to be contayned in holy scriptures but so far onlie as they commend vnto vs the authoritie of the Churche which is that my position saith and therefore your antithesis is in your owne brayne that seemeth to be at oddes with all true doctrine And marueyle truly it is to me with what countenance you produce S. Aug. doctrine as thoughe you attributed to him some authoritie seinge in the verie chapter immediatelie goinge before the place alleadged by you amongst the other canonicall bookes of holy scriptures he numbreth the bookes of Ecclesiasticus Sapientia Tobie â—udith and the Machabees all reiected by you and beginninge the chapter where you would take your antithesis saith thus In his omnibus libris timentes Deum pietate mansueti quaerunt voluntatem Dei In all these bookes those that feare God and are indued with true pietie seeke the will of God If nowe you make anie esteeme of S. August iudgment what case are you in that reiect these bookes of holy scripture as apocriphall whence he saith all pious and those that feare God do seeke his will but this onlie by the way PILK The holy Apostles deliuered by worde of mouth moe things to be beleeued and obserued by this churche then either they founde written or wrote themselues We knowe not the disposition of our saluation from anie other then from
breaketh all your batteries like as if they were balls of sande caste against a brasen wall And therefore the conclusions built vppon it will neither of themselues nor yett by all your forces fall to the grounde but will stande firme and stronge PILK First that the scriptures are not the vniuersall rule of faith a position so derogatorie to the testament of Christ and so contrarie to the doctrine of the auncient churche that I wounder howe you durst venture vppon it For the rule whereunto nothinge must be added nothinge detracted is an vniuersall and persecte rule such is the scripture which is Aquinas collection â— Tim. 6. For if anie addition or detraction might be made in the scriptures they could not be the rule att all As in a rule saith Photicus if yee adde or diminishe any thinge yee corrupte the whole And a rule saith Theophilact neither hath augmentation nor diminution soe is it in the scriptures which Chrisostome termeth the most experte rule Canon and Gnomon that can be if it admitte anie supplie it coulde not be the rule at all And if we must not be wise in matters diuine aboue that which is written then that which is written is the rule of our wisdome and faith But S. Paule forbiddeth that ranknes of witt to enquire further then that which is written This S. Aug. collecteth out of this place The holy scripture doth prefixe vnto vs the rule of our faith least we shoulde presume to be more wise then behoueth but as he saith let vs be wise vnto sobrietie as God hath diuided vnto euerie one the measure of faith Finallie if our faith doth lastlie resolue it selfe into the scriptures onlie then they alone are the rule and nothinge can be founde more vniuersall but this is graunted by your best diuines CHAMP Till it be prooued by expresse scripture that the scriptures are the vniuersall rule of our saith or that nothinge is to be beleeued but that which is prooued by scripture you cannot trulie say that my position is derogatorie to the Testament of Christ And because it can neuer be prooued by scripture that nothinge is to be beleeued but that which is prooued by expresse scripture your position is hereticall the contrarie thereof beinge clearelie testified by the scripture as shall appeare in the first and seconde controuersie vnto which places I will referr you for answere to your arguments which you there repeate as the more proper place Onlie I will not omitte to tell you here that you loose your creditt with al men by vtteringe such knowne vntruthes as that the best of our diuines doe graunte the â—ast resolution of our faith to â—ee into the scriptures onlie You shoulde haue named some one author att least to haue geuen creditt to your assertion PILK What then is the rule that is more vniuersall The authoritie of the churche say you Traditions saith Bellarmine the faith of the churche that is written in the heartes of the faithfull saith Stapleton soe friendlie doe the patrons of this errour accorde as if that curse wherewith God threatned the EgiptiaÌ„s had falleÌ„ vpon them I wil sett Egiptians against EgiptiaÌ„s they shal fight euerie one against his neighbour For if the authoritie of the churche doth make vppe the rule traditioÌ„s doe not beinge two thinges as different as the fountaine the streame the fruite and the tree For traditions flowe from the authoritie of the churche saith Stapleton Authoritie of the churche is the churches testimonie tradition is doctrine not a testimonie onlie This therefore is neither a more vniuersall rule nor yet before it which is your seconde conclusion and which if it were true the churche shoulde be summa prima veritas for that for which we must beleeue the Ghospell and it for it selfe is the highest and first truth but you papists say so of the churche therefore you haue deiâ—yed and changed it into the deitie and so made it of Bethâ—â—â—â— and house of God to be Bethanan the house of iniquitie CHAMP There is as much diuersitie or discorde betweene all these sayinges of ours as a goode Logician would finde betweene viuens â—enâ—â—â—ns 〈◊〉 inâ—eâ—â—â—â—ns which being â—ubalterna are not in anie mans brayne disparaâ—a or opposita vnles in yours which is often contrarie to it selfe Both tradtions therefore and the authority of the churche are more vniuersal rules theÌ„ the scriptures And thoughe the one of them is more vniuersall and before the other yet neither of them is summa or prima veritas as you most ignorantlie affirme in the precedent section of the scriptures for the which intollerable ignorance you are iustlie reprehended there nor either of them is beleeued for it selfe but for the testimonie of God reuelinge theire veritie who onlie is beleeued for himselfe and his owne essentiall truth and veritie And therefore your childishe inference of changinge Bethell into Bethanan is a ridiculous conclusion of your owne ignorant premisses or a dreame of your owne idle and emptie braine But you will bringe more solid stuffe hereafter lett vs heare the rest PILK Besides if it be demaunded from whence the churche hath anâ—e such authoritie it is answered from the scriptures for which are produced sundrie testimonies He that heareth you heareth me Goe teach all nations If then the life of this authoritie be maintayned and supported by the scriptures they are the rule and measure of her and so before her and not reciprocalliâ— measured by her CHAMP When it is demanded by such as pretend to beleeue the scriptures as you make shewe to doe and yett deny the churches Authoritie as you heretically doe what proofe there is of the churches authority the scriptures are rightlie produced for the proofe thereof not that thee hath her authoritie from the scriptures as you either ignorantlie or negligentlie say for her authoritie she hath from God The authour of all power and authoritie but that this authoritie iâ— testified by the scripture And maruell it is to me that you your selfe findinge and feelinge such testimonie of holy scripture for the churches authoritie as you cite in this place doe not yett cease to impugne it But the truth is you beleeue and follow the scriptures so farr as your selfe list onlie and noe farther On the other side when it is demaunded by such as belieue neither scriptures nor the churche but yett seeke some groundes of christian beliefe it woulde be a ridiculous thinge to prooue the church by the scriptures seinge they are written taught and preached by the ministrie of meÌ„ whereof the church consisteth and did consist many hundreds of yeeres before there were anie scriptures att all In this case therefor it is cleare that the church hath other proofe then from the scriptures and before the scriptures which in that case must be prooued by the churche But what this proofe is and whence it is taken pertayneth not to this place to say Yet whatsoeuer it
be it is manifest that in this case the proofe knowledg of the church must goe before the proofe and knowledge of the scriptures as beinge before it and leadinge vnto it and not the contrarie PILK This is yett more cleare by the verie proposition graunted by Papists that the scripture is the rule whereof the sence is that the sence and doctrine not the letters and characters are this rule Nowe lett our aduersaries iudge whether is more auncient the doctrine of the church which is the seede of the churche or the church which is begotten of it CHAMP You either ignorantlie mistake or wilfullie inuert the question which is not whether the holy scriptures be a rule of faith which noe christian denieth but whether it be the first and most vniuersall rule thereof And this none but heretikes that denie the authoritie of the churche and veritie of traditions both which notwithstandinge are expresselie testified by holy scripture did euer affirme And whether the church be more auncieÌ„t then the scriptures if you doubte as you seeme to doe yea and to affirme the contrarie I shall esteeme you either very senceles or verie wilfull and peâ—uers the scriptures hauinge been written by the churche vnles peraduenture by the scriptures or doctrine of the scriptures you vnderstande the worde of God written in the hearts of men by the immediate reuelation of the holy Ghost and by them deliuered by worde of mouth the one to the other vntill Moises who was the first that euer committed anie thinge to writinge If you take the scriptures in this sence that which you meane is true and if further you acknowledge the authoritie of the churche and veritie of Tradition in deliueringe this doctrine and teachinge it one to another by worde of mouth before it was written our controuersie is at an end The authoritie of the churche and traditions being euidentlie prooued to goe before the scriptures and consequentlie to be a more vniuersall rule of faith then the scriptures PILK So that as your first conclusion is a manifest vntruth that there is a more vniuersall rule of faith then the scriptures So the second is a dull and heauie conceipt that the churche shoulde be more auncient and before them CHAMP If either my first conclusion as you tearme it be a manifest vntruth or my second a dull coÌ„ceipt why doe you doombelie denie it without anie proofe or reason att all Especiallie seinge I prooued the first by cleare instance as you may see and the seconde is but a sequell or necessarie deduction of the first If it be enough for you to say that your aduersaries conclusions thoughe prooued by manifest instance are manifest vntruthes you may well hope to carrie away the bucklers from a farr greater clerke then euer I shall pretende to be For you knowe that Aristotles asse is able to denie more then his mayster is able to prooue PILK Peruse the fathers in whose workes you seeme to be conuersant and nominate one that hath taught either that the authoritie of the churche is a more vniuersall rule or that she was before theire doctrine which are the two cheefest stoopes of your religion whereas in them I finde that the scriptures is the rule and they nominate nothinge else CHAMP If you had weighed S. Aug testimonie which the manuall setteth downe in this place and which you vainlie strugle to auoyde with equall iudgment you woulde not haue putte me to further search of the fathers for proofe of that which I say You shall either deliuer your selfe better from S. Aug authoritie then here you haue donne or else you shall be forced to swallowe it downe as a bitter but a wholsome pill against your heresie Neither will I take the taxe at your hande to searche further the fathers for this purpose till I see this one better satisfied And you fight against your owne shaddowe when you labour to prooue by the fathers that the scriptures are a rule of our faith your aduersaries denyinge it not as I toulde you before But you loue to shewe your strength when none resisteth you And that the fathers nominate no other rule is as true as the rest of your sayinges For seeinge they auouch so plainlie and frequentlie traditions and the churches authoritie as you knowe they doe howe canne you say that they name noe other rule PILK The Ecclesiasticall rule is the consent and conspiration of the old and newe testament saith Clemens The holy scripture doth prefixe vnto vs the rule of our faith saith S. Aug. CHAMP I knowe not whether I shoulde attribute the citinge of this authoritie out of Clemens to your ignoraunce or to your fraude and desire to deceiue by it your reader it is so impertinent to your purpose He sayinge onlie that it is the Ecclesiasticall rule of interpretinge scriptures to make the prophetts and lawe to accorde with the testament of our Sauiour Christ Which what it maketh to prooue the scriptures to be the sole rule of faith I cannot conceiue S. Aug. you cite so at large that I knowe not where to look for the place by you alleaged to see whether it be not as pertinentlie alleaged as the other is And seinge the scriptures doe send vs to our pastours to learne our faith and to the churche commandinge vs to heare it it may well be sayde to prefixe vnto vs the rule of our faith and yett exclude not the churches authoritie for the which we nowe contende So that this place is as fitt for your purpose as the other PILK The churche goeth not out of her boundes that is the holy scriptures saith Ierome And least you might thinke it is the rule but not the onlie rule Vincentius addeth the sole rule of the scriptures is sufficient to all thinges CHAMP The churche followinge the authoritie of tradition and the iudgment of the churche in all matters of saith and manners which the scriptures doe expresslie geue testimonie and warrant vnto doth not goe out of the boundes of the scriptures In citinge Vincentius you vse your accustomed fraude leauinge out the wordes goinge before Which are so expresslie against your purpose that had you sett them downe they had been sufficient to confute your errours in this pointe they are these We haue sayde before haâ— this alwayes hath been and is also at this day the custome of Catholikes to prooue the truth of fayth by these two meanes First by the authoritie of diuine Canon then by tradition of the Catholike churche not because the Canon alone is not sufficient of it selfe to all thinges but c. Now lett the iudicious reader iudge whether this holy father make the scriptures the sole rule of faith or noe When he saith the sacred Canon is sufficient to all thinges he meaneth that it is sufficient to al thinges that is necessarie to euerie mans saluation or to euerie man to beleeue For these thinges are not many and sufficientlie
the other is a mere denyall or negation of faith of a positiue article and is as well in horses or asses as in men onlie with this difference that men are capable and may haue the contrarie positiue act but horses and asses cannot If your faith therefore of the negatiue articles which you houlde be of the first kinde you are bounde to prooue it by positiue testimonie of holy scripture If it be onlie of the second kinde then haue you no more faith in these articles then haue horses asses or other brute beastes Nowe to the fathers testimonies so farr as they may seeme to make anie thinge against the catholicke doctrine of traditions or the churches authoritie I answere supposinge they sounde as you sett them downe which I will not stande to examine here that whatsoeuer is prooued by traditions or the churches iudgment is warranted by the scripture which geueth testimonie to the churche and traditions Which answere is S. August lib. 1. cont Crescon cap. 33. PILK Therefore concerninge the profe of our faith in the negatiue points of purgatorie Reall presence Sacrifice of the Masse sith there is noe footinge for them in the worde of God we answere with Basill that it is not faith but a manifest defection from faith to denie that which is written or to bringe in anie thinge that is not written where as Christ IESVS our Lorde saith my sheepe heare my voice CHAMP The iudicious reader shal be iudge whether these catholike articles haue not much faster footinge in the holy scriptures then your contiarie negatiues Neither doth S. Basill anie wayes fauour you For he confirminge his sayinge with these wordes of our Sauiour my sheepe heare my voyce excludeth not that worde of our Sauiour which is more properlie his worde then the scripture For he sayth not my scriptures but my sheepe heare my voyce therfore he speaketh of the voyce as it is deliuered by worde and not as it is written PILK And yett to satisfy you we shall finde sufficient weapons out of the scriptures to lay these Anekims on the grounde Nowe as the Roman Emperour that meant to subdue Germanie brought out his armie and put them in aray vppon the sea shoore and presentlie charged them to gather shelles tellinge them that they were spoyles of the Ocean due to the capitoll So you hauinge marshalled your forces and putt them in order tell your reader that the whole body of them is but a Scheleton bare bones tyed together with drye Sinewes and then without question you will attaine a glorious victorie and bringe spoyles fitt for the vaticane Yet you doubt not but your treatise will please some mens appetite and I am of your minde for like lippes like lettuce Thus from your prolusion I come to your mayne battaille which thus you beginne CHAMP What sharpe weapons you wil finde in the scriptures for your negatiue faith or no beleefe I will with patience expect and hauinge with all indifferencie pondered them I will tell you with all sinceritie what weight they are of in my iudgment In the meane tyme I must tel you that your conclusion seemeth to me as litle wittie as all the rest of your discourse is learned and therfore findinge by the litle experience I haue of you that such lettuce sute well with your lippes I leaue them wholy to your selfe Manuall The first controuersie It is knowne that the catholike Roman churche doth admitte more bookes and parcelles of holy Bible for scripture then the protestants doe and consâ—quently acknowledge a larger Canon then they and yett notwithstandinge shee teacheth PILK The Grecians are euer children rightlie fitteth you Romanists that still lispe like littell children and excellentlie speake without sence For to say the catholike Romane church is as good sence as the vniuersall particular churche CHAMP It is your dull vnderstandinge and not our lisping language that maketh these wordes the Catholicke Roman â—hurâ—h without sence to you For the attribute Romane doth not restraine anie whit the amplitude of the signification of that worde catholicke or vniuersall either in reâ—pect of tyme or place as you ignorantlie imagine but doth onlie distinguish it from all such sects as falselie and presumptuously terme themselues catholike but dare not call themselues RomaÌ„s or Roman Catholickes As in former ages the worde catholike was added to the name christian for the same purpose as auncient Pacianus signifieth Therefore when we say a Roman Catholike we woulde say no more but a true and not a falsely termed catholike And because you are a member of one of those sects which are discried by this worde Romane you hate it as theeues hate the light whereby they are discouered PILK For who can conceiue the catholike churche to be Roman which was in the worlde before Rome it selfe was for it is the generall assembly of the Saints Heb. 12. â—3 from Abell the first iust vnto the last that shall beleeue in Christe as S. Aug speaketh Moreouer all the nations in the worlde not the Romans were promised to Christ psal 2. Aske of me and I will geue thee the gentiles for thine inheritance and the vttermost partes of the earth for thy possession and so S. Aug writeth that God promised to the seede of Abraham not the Romans but all the gentils and sealed it with an oathe by which promise it came to passe that manie nations not contayned vnder the Roman iurisdiction receiued the Gospell and were ioyned vnto the churche CHAMP There is no greater difficultie to conceiue howe the catholike churche may be called Roman then howe the christian churche which denomination began first at Antioch is called Catholike And if you would knowe he reason why it is denominated of Rome rather then of Antioche or Hierusalem it is because S. Peeter who was Bishoppe of Rome receiued promise of our Sauiour Christ that his churche shoulde be builte vppon him as vppon a firme rocke and that hell gates shoulde neuer preuaile against it Which promise our Sauiour Christ hauinge performed it is come to passe that the churche of Christe which was first called christian then Catholike is nowe called Roman and thus much for the name RomaÌ„ Nowe I woulde haue you marke that whatsoeuer you say in proofe of this attribute catholike you say in condemnation of your owne protestanticall assemblies which were neuer hearde of before Martin Luther no more then the Arrians were before Arrius and the rest of the sects and heresies before theire maisters and authours Which one argument had you but anie indifferencie ioyned with anie meane iudgment woulde be sufficient to make you detest the felloweshippe of such newe maisters PILK Besides the moderne Romane churche hath made a defection from that which the primatiue Roman church maintayned in so much that S. Paules Epistles written to the auncient RomaÌ„s may iustlie be called an antilogie of that Religion which nowe is professed in the cittie of Rome CHAMP Some substantiall proofe
thinge deliuered in the worde CHAMP That is properlie an article of faith that is beleeued for diuine authoritie whether it be written or noe as were all these thinges the fathers beleeued before the lawe written And because we beleeue the bookes of Genesis for example and the rest of the holy Byble to be written by Gods reuelation therefore doe we beleeue them to be holy scripture and to containe gods worde Which therefore is properlie an article of faith no lesse then the misterie of the blessed trinitie beleeued for the same authoritie PILK Vppon this grounde I answere first in generall that none of these points are articles of faith CHAMP Vppon such a false grounde you are like to builde a good answere Is it no article of faith with you that the booke of Genesis is written by gods reuelation Tell me I pray you vnto what kinde of knowledge or assent you will reduce it I will confesse you a maister in diuinitie if you can make it well appeare by what other act of knowledge or vnderstandinge we assent vnto this veritie besides the act of faith Which if you cannot performe as assuredlie you cannott you must needes see this your first answere to be noe answere att all but a meere supposall of a manifest falsitie PILK Secondlie I answere to euerie one in particular I answere to the the first That all canonicall bookes and euerie parcell thereof be such is prooued out of themselues For besides that the ould testament prooueth the newe and the newe the old for whatsoeuer we read in the ould testament the same is founde in the gospell and whatsoeuer is founde in the gospell that is deduced from the authoritie of the ould testament as Hierome speaketh so in speciall euerie booke prooueth it selfe both by its owne light as formerlie was shewed and by the testimonie of Christ of the Prophets and Apostles that were the secretaries of the holy ghost The testimonie of our Sauiour Christ. Luc. 24. 44. These are the wordes which I spake vnto you while I was with you that all must needes be fulfilled which were written of me in the lawe of Moyses and in the prophetts and in the psalmes Of S. Paule 2. Tim. 3. 16. All scripture is geuen by the inspiration of God and is profitable to doctrine to reproofe to correction to instruction which is in righteousnes Of S. Peter the 2. epist 1. 21. The prophecie came not in olde tyme by the will of man but holy men of God spake as they were moued by the holy Ghost doe abundantlie prooue the bookes of the olde testament to be canonicall besides that there is not anie of them out of which some testimonie is not in the newe testament extant CHAMP Your second answere is as much to the purpose as your first Neither the old testament proouing the newe nor contrariwise vnles the one be beleeued before Yea you make your selfe ridiculous to all men by such a naturall or circulare proofe vnles you suppose the assured beleefe of some parte before For example if one shoulde demaunde of you how you knowe or why you doe beleeue those wordes of our Sauiour which you cite out of the 24 of S. Luke either to haue been spoken by him or written by S. Luke would you say that they euidentlie prooue themselues so to be surely this you must say both accordinge to your doctrine here and accordinge to the necessitie you putt your selfe into by denyinge the authority of tradition and of the churches testimonie And yett in sayinge that you shall euidently prooue your selfe to be senceles For there is noe such euidence of the thinge but anie man that is not moued with the authoritie of gods churche and tradition would esteeme it verie vncertaine and most doubtfull For vnles these wordes and that which I say of them I say of the rest of the scripture were God himselfe and spake to vs as imediatlie as he did to Moises and the rest of his prophetts they cannot be sayde to be knowne by theire owne light nor beleeued for theire owne truth Againe suppose you had certayne knoweledge of this by what meanes soeuer howe could you be certayne that he speaketh of those bookes of Moises psalmes and prophetts which we haue vnder those names This certainlie would be impossible for you to prooue seinge you reiect the authoritie of tradition and the churches iudgment by which onlie it is assuredlie prooued Furthermore you knowe that our Sauiour speakinge in his owne person required not to be beleeued but by the testimonie of his workes sayinge Nisi opera in eis fecissem 〈◊〉 nemo alius fecit peccatum non haberent Much lesse therefore doth he require that we shoulde beleeue a written booke to be his worde without other proofe then the selfe light of the booke which is not so greate as that of his owne liuelie worde◠The sayinge of S Hierome is nothinge to the purpose For he speaketh onlie of the mutuall consent and concord of the two testaments which to christians that alreadie beleeue them both to be the worde of God is no small confirmation of the veritie of the doctrine they both contayne PILK The Gospells of the Euangelists the Acts and Epistles of the Apostles the reuelation of S. Iohn prooue themselues out of themselues to be theires whose titles they beare And if we creditt the bookes of historians and Philosophers auncient and moderne diuine and humane to be theires whose names they carrie in theire foreheads what madnes were it to thinke the diuine scriptures not to be written by them who are said to be theire penmen after the defluxion of so manie ages wherein neuer anie good christian called them in question besides wicked Iesuits impure Manichees Cerdonians Marcionists and Ebionites CHAMP None of all these bookes say they were written by such and such as is manifest And thoughe they did yett were not this sufficient to prooue them theirs vnles it were certaine this were theire testimonie and that they were infallible in their testimonie As for the titles they beare there is the same difficultie For it is not otherwise knowne to be theirs then by faith and beleefe of which we seeke the grounde And if titles were sufficient proofes of the true gospells we should haue manie moe gospells then we haue as you cannot be ignorant Againe the Epistle to the Hebrues beareth not the name of anie of the Apostles and howe longe it was thought by diuerse not to be S. Paules you knowe vnles you be verie ignorant For the workes of other humane authors why doe you beleeue them to be theirs if it be not for the testimonie of all succeedinge ages brought vnto vs by tradition Giue some other sufficient grounde of your beleefe in this poynte if you can and if you cannot say you are senceles to reiect ecclesiasticall tradition in receiuinge the bookes of the Bible or else that your iudgment is foolishe and idle
tract 98. in Ioh before mentioned Nowe your argument out of all these places is shewed to be vayne and of noe force by the particular answere to euerie authoritie And thus farr haue you brought nothinge more for the proofe of your position thē anie heretike in the worlde may or might haue brought for the proofe of his heresie For euerie heretike can bringe single places of scripture yea and of fathers in fauour of his heresie But to bringe scriptures interpreted by the fathers in fauour of theire heresie is a thinge if not impossible at least verie harde and rare beinge the priuiledge of the catholike churche alone PILK ANTITHESIS 2. The scriptures contayne in themselues a perfect doctrine of saith and good workes necessarie to saluation without testimonie authoritie or tradition of the churche addinge vnto them or bringinge from without them anie other doctrine CHAMP This position is the same in sence if either of them haue anie sence with the former and therefore vainlie is tearmed by you a second Antithesis vnlesse euerie tyme you write a position varyinge a fewe wordes in it but retayninge the same sence you will say it is a newe positiō But to lett this passe your proofes so farr as they make anie thinge against the catholike veritie are to be pondered PILK Proofe 1. 2. Tim. 3. 16. The whole scripture is diuinelie geuen and profitable for doctrine for reproofe for correction for instruction which is in righteousnes that the man of God may be perfectlie instructed in euerie good worke That which perfecteth the man of God to euerie good worke contayneth perfect doctrine of faith and manners without addition of anie othèr but the scriptures do so Ergo. CHAMP It must needes be obstinacie in errour and not ignoraunce as I thinke that maketh you abuse this place For first you cannot be ignorant that the Apostle speaketh there of the scriptures of the olde testament wherewith S. Timothy was acquainted from his infancie which if you will say to contayne a perfect doctrine then is all the newe testament either superfluous or at the least not necessarie Secondlie the Apostle peaketh not of the whole scripture taken together but of euerie parte thereof seuerallie meaninge that euerie parte of scripture is proffitable to teach correct and instruct which is true but nothinge to your purpose And that he speaketh not of the whole scripture in the former sence but in the latter it is manifest For when he wrote this to Timothie the whole scripture which the church nowe hath was not written Lastlie lett it be sayd that he speaketh it of the whole scripture in the former sence yett he saith no more but that it is profitable to teache instruct c. which I easilie graunt you and yett I say your argument drawne from thence is most friuolous as appeareth by the like sett downe before in answere of this of yours wherunto I referre you PILK Proofe 2. Iohn 5. 35. Search the scriptures for in them you thinke to haue eternall life Luke 16. 29. They haue Moises the prophetts lett thē heare them That which teacheth how we may come to eternall life and shunne or escape eternall death contayneth a perfect doctrine of faith and good workes But the scriptures doe soe ergo CHAMP Make your minor proposition this as it should be but the olde Testament doth soe for of the olde testament onlie these places speake as is manifest and your conclusion will serue directlie to exclude the whole newe testament from the perfect rule of faith Fye I am ashamed in your behalfe of such childishnes as you shewe in these arguments PILK Proofe 3. Acts 1. 1. The former treatise haue I made ô Theophilus of all that Iesus began to doe and teach These thinges that Christ did and taught contayne a perfect doctrine but these thinges are written CHAMP Conclude therefore the onlie ghospell of S. Luke contayneth a perfect doctrine Is this your intent noe but blinde malice against the euident truth draweth you into these grosse absurdities If you haue noe care of your soule haue yett for shame some care of your credit and reputation for the gayninge of which you haue trauelled these fower or fiue yeeres to bringe foorthe this miserable heape of vnshapen absurdities A miserable labour I wisse whereby you gaine nothinge but the reputation of an impertinent minister deuoyde of ordinarie iudgment To these fewe testimonies of scripture so miserablie mistaken you adde some passages of the fathers to as good purpose as you did in the former Antithesis These they are PILK Proofe 4. If you be the disciples of the gospell saith Athanasius speake not iniquitie against God but walke in those thinges which are written or donne For if you will speake diuers thinges from these thinges that are written why striue you with vs without them The scriptures are perfect as spoken from the worde of God and his spiritt CHAMP S. Athanasius speaketh of such thinges as are not onlie not directly in scriptures but are against and contrarie to scriptures S. Ireneus saith the scriptures beinge spoken by the spiritt of God are perfect as the thinges spoken by men are not which haue imperfections and therefore are subiect to corrections and amendments You abuse therefore your reader with an equiuocall tearme of perfect PILK Proofe 5. The order of this present tecture teacheth that we must nott adde anie thinge to the diuine precepts for if thou addest or detractest it is a preuarication of the precept Oftentymes when a witnes addeth anie thinge of his owne he spotteth the whole creditt of his testimonie with a lye nothinge therefore thoughe it seeme good must be added And a litle after if S. Iohn hath sayde of his writinge if anie man adde vnto these thinges God shall adde vnto him the plagues that are written in this booke and if anie man shall take away from the worde of this prophecie God shall take away his parte from the booke of life howe much more nothinge is to be added to godds precepts CHAMP That which is taught or commēded by the churche which the scripture commandeth vs to heare is not superadded to gods commandements or precepts but is comprised in them you therefore that will not heare and obey the churche which you are so expressely commaunded to heare euidentlie and damnablie detract from diuine precepts Therefore this authoritie is so farr from proouinge anie thinge to your purpose that it ouerthroweth it rather PILK Proofe 6. O Emperour doost thou demaunde what our faith is Heare it not out of newe papers but out of the bookes of God heare I pray thee the thinges that are written of Christ least vnder them those thinges that are not written should be preached Open thy eares to those thinges that shall speake out of the bookes lifte vppe thy faith vnto God I will not defend any thinge scandalous nor anie thinge that is from without the gospell
Apostles did so CHAMP This argument is all moste as wicked as the precedent For if it conclude anie thinge it prooueth the Apostles to haue preached nothinge but S. Iohns gospell And consequentlie all the rest of the newe testament either to be Apocripha or at least not to be anie way necessarie to saluation This man thou seest iudicious reader to be as little a friende to scripture as to traditions seeing to impugne the one he destroyeth the other Is this your sworde Mr. Minister wherewith you would pearce and wounde your aduersary no wise man I thinke but will say it was made to cutt your owne throate with rather then to drawe one droppe of blood of your aduersarie But you will bringe sharper weapons out of the fathers You should remember that the testimonies out of the fathers should be explications of the scriptures cited for the same purpose and not theire single sayinges But lett vs take them as they are PILK Proofe 4. We know not the disposition of our saluation from anie other then from them by whome the ghospell came to vs which first they preached and after by the will of God deliuered it vnto vs in the holy scriptures to be the foundation and pillar of our faith CHAMP This authoritie hath been once or twice satisfied before and it saith not they wrote all they preached but the same doctrine which they preached they writt and not a diuerse or contrarie as some heretikes fabulouslie taught against whome S. Ireneus there writeth and this is the true meaninge of that place as anie one that looketh thereon will easilie see PILK Proofe 5. These thinges are chosen to be written which are sufficient for the saluation of the beleeuers CHAMP This is true and not against the catholike doctrine of traditions For he that beleeueth that which is written beleeueth sufficient for his saluation if he haue not repugnancie in his minde not to beleeue anie more PILK Proofe It is a manifest defection from faith and the crime of pride either for to refuse anie thinge of those that are written or to bringe in that which is not written as our Sauiour Iesus Christe saith my sheepe heare my voyce CHAMP It is an equall crimeÌ„ to denie that which is written and to bringe in anie thinge not written contrarie to that which is written as the Arrians did who made Christe to be a creature different in substance from his father contrarie to that which is written in manie places And this is S. Basills playne doctrine which is nothinge for your purpose nor against me PILK ANTITHESIS 2. The catholike churche ought not to beleeue these traditions which the papists say the Apostles deliuered by worde of mouth onlie in the same degree of faith with these thinges that are written Proofe 1. Esay 8. 20. To the lawe and the testaments if they speake not accordinge to this worde it is because there is no light in them Argument That which speaketh not accordinge to the lawe and testimonie hath no truth and is not to be credited as the lawe But papists traditions are so CHAMP The answere to your argument shall be to returne it vppon you in this manner That which speaketh accordinge to the lawe and testimonie is true and is to be credited as the lawe it selfe But such are catholike traditions Ergo. PILK Proofe Gall. 1. 8. 9. But thoughe we or an Angell from heauen preach anie other gospell vnto you then that which we haue preached lett him be accursed as we sayd before so say I nowe againe if anie man preach anie other gospell vnto you then you haue receiued lett him be accursed Argument That which is not the same but another besides that which Paule preached is not to be credited but accursed But popish traditions are so CHAMP I must needes say that the catholike doctrine shoulde be verie weake indeede if it should be ouerthrowne with such lame and limpinge arguments that haue not so much as one good legge to stand vppon And what shall we say then of the protestants doctrine that is supported by such bean-strawe pillars Your maior were it true woulde conclude all the Apostles writinges besisides S. Paules to be accursed at leaste in all such thingeâ— as are not found in S. Paule Your minor may as easilie be affirmed of S. Iohns Gospell or anie other booke of the bible So that your conclusion is like to be verie protestanticall See therfore howe stronglie you haue prooued your protestant position or antithesis and consequentlie howe deepelie you haue wounded your aduersarie Euer so blinde may the enemies of gods churche be to impugne it in this manner so longe as they doe impugne it PILK Proofe 2. Petri. 1. 18. 19. And this voice which came from heauen we heard when we were with him in the holy Mount We haue also a more sure worde of prophecie whereunto you doe well that you take heede as vnto a light that shineth in a darke place vntill the day dawne and the day-starre arise in your harts Argument That which is more firme and sure then reuelation from heauen not then written is more to be credited then anie thinge nowe not written but the scriptures are such CHAMP Doe you thinke that the writinge of anie reuelation maketh it more firme or that it receiueth anie increase of authoritie thereby you seeme to be of this opinion but it is moste absurde to thinke For the authoritie all reuelations haue is from God almightie and not from the writinge of them in paper or parchment And therefore the prophecie S. Peter speaketh of whether it were written or vnwritten for he saith not it was written but rather the contrarie tearminge it a propheticall speach or sermon is sayde by him to be more firme then the testimonie receiued in the holy mount because that had been auncientlie promulgated credited and receiued whereas this had neuer yett bin preached or proposed to be beleeued and therefore no maruell though that were esteemed more firme then this hitherto hadd been not because this had not been written but because it had not been preached or published att all till that tyme. PILK Proofe Iohn 5. 36. 37. 38. 39. But I haue greater witnes then that of Iohn for the workes which the Father hath geuen me to finishe the same workes that I doe beare witnes of me that the Father hath sent me And the Father himselfe which hath sent me hath borne witnes of me Yee haue neither heard his voice at anie tyme nor seene his shape And yee haue not his worde abidingâ— in you for whome he sent him yee beleeue not Searche the scriptures for in them yee haue eternall life and they are they which testifie of me Argument That which is greater then the testimonie of Iohn is more to be credited then anâ—e thinge not written But the scriptures are greater then the testimonie of Iohn CHAMP The farther you goe the more foolishe and impertinent still you
vnderstandinge according to scriptures CHAMP I wish with all my hearte thoughe you geue little occasion to hope it that you woulde immitate S. Aug aswell in this particular as in all other thinges then woulde you with all humilitie and reuerence receiue and acknowledge the authoritie of the churche in the interpretation of the scriptures and not diabolicallie bragge of the brauenes of your spirits that dare contemne the same Hearken I pray you vnto S. Aug wordes to Cresconius in the same chapter cited by you which seeinge you take noe notice of it is an euident argument you haue noe greate desire to learne anie thinge of him but to see if you canne picke anie thinge out of him for your purpose which is to impugne him and the rest of the fathers His wordes are these which may as properlie be vsed to you as he vsed them to Cresconius Put your selfe saith he in the churche which it is manifest S. Cyprian defended and then may you alleage S. Cyprians authoritie for your doctrine The same I say to you concerninge S. Aug example thoughe you came neerer the imitatinge thereof theÌ„ you doe You say you followe the direction of the priests and leuits in expoundinge scriptures I finde nothing att all in the place quoted by you warrantinge your vsage of scriptures But were it as you thinke you must first prooue your selues to be priests or leuits before you can take vppon you the charge of priests and leuits in expoundinge the scriptures How would you answere that olde question put vnto such as you are well nighe 1400. yeares a goe Vnde vemtts quid in meo â—acitis non mei or if you will take vppon you as priests and leuits to expounde the scriptures beinge noe such men those that desire not to be deceaued will reiect your expositions as false and pernitious PILK And thus the fathers teache vs as whatsoeuer golde is without the temple is not sanctified so whatsoeuer sence is without the scriptures althoughe to some it seeme wounderfull yet is not holy because it is not contained in the scriptures The scripture expoundeth her selfe and suffereth not the hearers to erre saith Chrisostome He is the best reader sayth Hyllarie that expecteth rather the vnderstandinge of the wordes from the wordes themselues then imposeth it vppon them CHAMP The sence of the churche is neuer without the scriptures as the sence of all heretikes is which impugne the churche and if the scriptures permitt not the hearer to err as you say in vaine are your expositions euerie hearer beinge aswell able to vnderstande them as you ministers You said not longe since that there are manie obscurities in the scriptures and are they nowe so cleare that they permitte not the hearer to err Doe you not see what absurdities you runne into whilst you wrangle against the euident truth And who I pray you is more like to take the sence of the scriptures from the wordes themselues and not to impose it vppon them as you say out of S. Hillarie then the catholicke churche assisted to that end by the holy ghost PILK To conclude this pointe sith the fathers often roue att the sence of the scriptures vnderstandinge that literallie which is meant spiritually and contrariwise as your owne Bellarmine may informe you you shoulde haue donne well to haue followed the direction of your owne Canon lawe you must not froÌ„ without scriptures seeke a forrayne and straunge sence that so you may confirme it with authoritie of the text as you can but of the scriptures themselues you must receiue the meaninge of the truth CHAMP If the fathers roue at the sence of the scriptures which saucie and vnseemlie terme you falslie father vppon Bellarmine what shall I thinke you will doe Hitt the marke directlie what sencelesnes would that be to thinke that men impugninge violentlie the church which the scriptures testifie to be pillar of truth should be true interpreters of scriptures Knowe you therefore that whilst followe the fathers interpretations of the scriptures which they either receiue from the churche or is approoued and not approoued and not gainsayde by the churche I seekâ— not the sence of the scriptures from without them but in them by them and most conformablie to them and so I followe punctuallie the direction of the Canon Lawe as you aduise me maruellinge not a little that you should geue so good counsell to another and followe it so little your selfe And nowe Iudicious reader woulde I intreate thee to turne ouer a fewe leaues backwarde and take reuiewe of the short section of the manuall sett downe as it is in Mr. Pilkinton and then passe hardlie thy censure of vs both as thou shalt finde cause and ground And particular note I woulde haue thee to take howe pertinentlie and directlie he impugneth that which hâ— affirms 〈…〉 and effectuallie prooueth that which I woulde haue thee obserue thoroughe ouâ— whole dispute MANVALL SECTIO 4. Thirdlie that I expect and exact of him or them that shall goe aboute to answere this teatise the same round sincere and direct dealinge which I haue here vsed Remembringe before all thinges that he sett downe his faith in direct positions and proceed in like methode as I haue donne for the rest To whom I willinglie graunt this large libertie aboue that which I haue vsed that he tye not himselfe vnto the first 500. yeres after Christ for the fathers interpretations but that he take bouldlie 1500. yeres so that he bringe not condemned heretikes for his authors and with all obserue the pointe followinge PILK You may bouldlie sound the Triumphe before the victorie if you may prescribe your aduersaries howe and what they shall answere you which if any of vs shoulde offer to your side we should presentlie be vpbrayded with fortissimi milites that on noe other condition dare encounter with our enemies except we forbidde them what weapons they would vse and take to our selues what we list Neuerthelesse rather then you shoulde complaine that you are wronged if your desire be not accomplished who carrie in your head Ticonius conceipt quod volumus sanctum est therefore I am content to followe your disorderlie order and for the rest of this paragraph doe as Antonie the oratour did who when he came to a troublesome pointe lapped it vp in silence so on the contrarie for the easines of this to passe by itt and proceede to that which is of greater moment CHAMP It is not onlie lawfull but verie laudable and welbeseeminge for anie man to demande equall conditions of his aduersarie which notwithstandinge I haue spared to doe yeldinge vnto you the libertie of 1500. for onlie 500. yeeres which is in anie indifferent mens iudgment ouer great aduantage For the rest of this section I will imitate your example lettinge it passe in silence For I will not be ashamed to followe you where you goe right MANVALL SECTION 5. Fowerthlie that it
be god worde that they are manifest of themselues and neede not to be prooued Because you will euer be impertinent not knowinge what you say nor what you shoulde prooue and yet are you so full of bable that you will still be be talkinge If one shoulde aske your aduise howe he might knowe good Phisicke and you shoulde say vnto him it is an easie thinge to knowe that For that phisike which coÌ„forteth nature expelleth disseases and restoreth health is certainlie good phisicke doe you thinke he shoulde be much wiser for your aduise whatsoeuer you thinke I knowe he shoulde be as wise as he was before Such is your directions to knowe the scripture vnto such as doe not alreadie knowe or beleeue them And seeinge our Sauiour himselfe prescribeth as a necessarie rule to knowe the scriptures the performance of his fathers will before his doctrine canne be vnderstoode as you well note but stil against your selfe it is euident that they are not so cleare of theÌ„selues nor yett so easie to be knowne as you pretend For that doctrine which must first be practised by humble obedience before it can be vnderstoode or knowne to be of God as our Sauiour saith of the scripture noe man that is not deuoyde of all iudgment wil say is easie to be knowne euen by it selfe PILK I might add all those arguments which both the fathers and schoolemen produce out of the scriptures themselues to prooue them the ofspringe of God which if they be stronge against gentiles I knowe not howe they should be weake against you vid. the maiestie of the doctrine the simplicitie and puritie of the stile antiquitie of the bookes truth of oracles and predictions that manie ages after held their complement with sundrie other to the like purpose but I passe by them and shutt vppe this pointe with that speeche of your Stewchus CHAMP You were well aduised to passe by all such arguments of the fathers and schoolemen as woulde nothinge serue your purpose I woulde you had been so aduised from the begininge for soe shoulde I not haue hadd the labour and paynes to transcribe so manie impertinencies of yours as I haue been forced to doe hitherto The arguments which you here mention taken by themselues are farr from makinge anie sufficient grounde to builde our faith vppon thoughe they are probable and prudent considerations and ioyned with the authoritie of the churche and tradition wherby â—e receiue the scriptures they are not without some force to persuade the bookes of the holy Bible to be gods worde and to be written by his inspiration But take you experience of them in your selfe and see whether they are sufficient to persuade that the bookes of Wisdome Ecclesiastious and the rest receiued generallie by the whole churche and namelie by the fathers and schoolemen whose authoritie here you seeme to vrge for canonicall are trulie gods worde and written by his holy spiritt And if you finde them not sufficient groundes for these why woulde you intrude them vppon vs as sufficient for the rest But lett vs heare what you bringe out of our Stewchus PILK They which thinke the authoritie of holy scriptures whereunto all the worlde nowe assenteth to depende vppon the readers faith and not to bringe with them certaine diuine and most potent reasons that drawe vnto them the iudgements of greate mindes are therefore deceiued because they are not of theire number whose mindes both by naturall goodnes and continuall exercitation of wisdome doe prudentlie apprehend the highest and truest thinges whereas if anie haue that wisedome geuen him to esteeme the greatnes of thinges as they deserue he shall feele the weight of diuine oracies to be so greate that the pronunciation of them onlie would suffice to begett a most firme and suddaine faith CHAMP The whole space of a thousand and fiue hundred yeeres geuen you to take your testimonies out of might haue sufficed without alleaginge of moderne writers and those oâ— small note and lesse authoritie Stewchus is an author not wholly receiued and the booke cited by you is put in the index of bookes to be amended or corrected and therefore the testimonie thereof thoughe it were otherwise most formall as it is not is of noe authority against vs. And truelie I wounder you are not ashamed to bring such stuffe for the proofe of your faith and doctrine And that in such sorte as you haue lett passe all other and made choyce of this as of moste strength and force Lett the iudicious reader nowe iudge by that which hath been sayde both by you and me whether the scriptures are so clearelie knowne by themselues and by theire owne light that they neede no other proofe to be gods worde and written by his spiritt And whether it he a needles or disorderlie thinge for him that pretendeth to prooue all the points of his faith by holy scripture to prooue first that there is a holie scripture and then to prooue in what bookes it is contayned And lastlie whether because you refusinge traditions and the churches authoritie by which onlie the holy scriptures are knowne cannot prooue the scriptures to be such and therefore receiuinge them vpon the credit of your owne fancie which consequentlie must be the fundamentall rule of your whole Faith doe not recurre to that shifte to say that the scriptures are so euident of themselues that they neede noe other proofe or testimonie but themselues MANVALL SECTION 7. And here occur by the way two thinges worthy of note The one that the scripture cannot be an vniuersall rule of our faith seeinge somethinges are to be beleeued without proofe of scripture as are for example that there is an holy scripture contayninge gods worde and reuelation and that these these bookes be such therefore of necessitie must there be some other rule of our faith more vniuersall then the scriptures and consequentlie before the scriptures And this cannot be but the authoritie of gods churche which is clearely S. August doctrine who was not a frayde to say I woulde not beleeue the Gospell but that the authoritie of the church doth moue me Seeinge therefore the authoritie of the churche is a sufficient motiue for vs to beleeue what is scripture why shoulde it not haue the like authoritie with vs in other points of faith which is also S. Aug argument in the same place but I will notwithstandinge satisfie our aduersaries in theire owne humour PILK Your former grounde beinge a bedd of sande that scriptures cannott be prooued by scriptures these conclusions that you doe builde vppon it doe of themselues fall to the grounde CHAMP When you shall followinge your principles proue out of the scripture either that there is a scripture or in what bookes it is contayned without supposinge some scripture without proofe then may you terme my grounde to be a bedd of sande and I will also beleeue it so to be But till then I will esteeme it a rock that
more subiect to errour nowe then shee was at that tyme. Therfore that which Driedo saith is that the primatiue churche by reason of the colledge of the Apostles had power to deliuer newe doctrine of faith which the succedinge church hath not but hath infallible authoritie to teache that faith which shee receaued of the Apostles And this you might easilie haue seene to haue been Driedoes Doctrine if you had taken but anie ordinarie heede to his wordes PILK Neuertheles to passe by this to graunte that S. Augustin a Catholicke and a Bishoppe woulde not beleeue the Gospell but that the authoritie of the churche moued him is euerie motiue to beleeue a rule of faith Nothinge lesse For the rule is that whereunto faith is lastlie resolued which is not into the authoritie of the churche as your best diuines teach but into the scriptures CHAMP You might well haue past by all this indeede and also that which followeth had you not rather chosen to fil your paper with your impertinencies to the publishinge of your owne small iudgement If you take the rule of â—aith so strictlie as it contayneth onlie that whereunto faith is lastlie resolued you will make onlie God reuelinge his verities to be the rule of faith and then you must exclude not onlie the churche but the scriptures also But if you take it for a true ground of beleefe then that testimonie which so moueth to faith as it ingendreth faith in vs may trulie be sayde to be a rule of faith such a motiue S. Aug saith the churche is PILK And there vppon Cameracensis speakinge of this place of S. Aug saith that it proueth not that he beleeued the gospell thoroughe the churches authoritie as by a Theologicall principle whereby the gospell might be prooued true but onlie as by a cause mouinge him to creditt it as if he shoulde say I woulde not beleeue the gospell vnles the holynes of the churche or Christes miracles did moue me In which sayinge thoughe some cause of his beleeuinge be assigned yet no former principle is touched whose creditt might be the cause why the gospell shoulde be beleeued CHAMP It appeareth well you vnderstande not what Cameracensis saith or else that you care not what you say so that you say somethinge He saith the scriptures are not prooued by the authority of the churche as by a Theologicall principle or argument ab intrinseco but as a motiue from authority or ab extrinseco which is that all men say and which I only desire to prooue by S. Augustines testimonie For if the church be a motiue to beleeue the scriptures it must necessarilie be before the scriptures and consequentlie be a more vniuersall rule cause or motiue of faith and beleefe then the scriptures PILK Bellarmine saith that S. Aug. speaketh these wordes of the authoritie of the churche as of a cause propoundinge what is to be beleeued and not of the foundation of faith But the proposition of the churche is not the rule and resolution of faith but onlie a condition requisite of beleeuinge as Valent. teacheth in 22. tom 3. de obiecto fidei CHAMP It is a most irkesome and importunate thinge to haue to doe with with an ignorant aduersarie that knoweth not what he shoulde either prooue or denie Such an one you shewe your selfe to be For if you take from the scripture which you trulie teache to be a rule of our faith the authoritie to propose manifest and testify articles of beleefe see howe you will make it a rule of faith Seeinge therefore you geue to the churche these thinges without which the scriptures are not a rule of faith why should you deny it to be also a rule of faith But the churche you say is not the foundation or resolution of faith I speake in your owne phrase thoughe improperlie that you may vnderstande and therfore is it not anie rule thereof If this argument conclude anie thinge it will also prooue the scriptures to be noe rule of faith For it is neither foundation nor resolution of faith if you vnderstande the first and chiefe foundation or last resolution as I tould you before vnles you will make it to be God himselfe But if you take foundation for that which doth grounde our faith in a certaine and sure kinde of infallible testimonie in which sence al men speake that knowe what they speake theÌ„ are both the scriptures and the churche also foundations and groundes of our faith PILK And surelie if S. Aug had meant that the authoritie of the churche had beene this rule which is your inference he had excluded all other rules For he that saith I would not beleeue excepte the authoritie of the churche moued me establisheth one cause remoueth the rest But this none of you dare accorde vnto is as farr from S. Aug. meaninge as your next wordes are from truth If therefore the authoritie of the churche be a sufficient motiue for a motiue it is which none of vs euer denyed but that it is a sufficient motiue neither canne you prooue nor yett S. August anie where auoucheth CHAMP S. Aug. wordes which are to be beleeued before your bare negation are most cleare that without the testimonie or authoritie of the churche he hadd not beleeued the Gospell and consequentlie that the churche was cause rule and motiue of his beleefe not in that degree that God is the rule or foundation of our faith for so we shoulde make S Aug. as sencelesse as Mr. Pilkinton but in the like kinde or degree that the scriptures are but yett before the scriptures because he beleeued them for the churches authoritie And therefore you see S. Aug. to say that which the Manuall saith that there is some other rule of faith before and more vniuersall then the scriptures seeinge that for it and by it the scriptures are beleeued MANVALL SECTIO 8. The second thinge to be noted is that they which beleeue nothinge but that which is prooued by scripture are euidentlie conuinced to beleeue nothinge at all For they that cannott beleeue that there is an holy scripture or what bookes be holy scripture cannott beleeue anie thinge because it is prooued by scripture for it is euident that before they beleeue anie thinge because it is prooued by scripture they must first beleeue that there is a holy scripture and what bookes are scripture But they that beleeue not anie thinge but that which is prooued by scripture cannot beleeue that there is a scripture nor what bookes are holy scripture For neither of these two canne be prooued by holy scripture Therefore they that beleeue not anie thinge but that which is prooued by scripture cannott beleeue anie thinge att all This argument is a playne demonstration and compelleth the protestants either to confesse that they haue noe faith att all or to acknowledge this their position to witt that nothinge ought or can rightlie be beleeued but that which may be prooued
of this your assertion woulde assuredlie gett you the victorie in all the rest you contende aboute without all further dispute But the manifest falsitie of your affirmation doth not only make your cause desperate but also deepelie woundeth your creditt hauinge no care to affirme so apparant vntruthes without the slenderest shewe of proofe or probabilitie att all PILK Besides we doe not finde in anie auncient creede either that of the Apostles or of Nice or in anie other of the auncient counsells that the churche was stiled the catholâ—cke Roman Finallie howe canne a parte be the whole Nowe the Roman churche thoughe shee were pure in her farthest extent is but a parte of the vniuersall churche CHAMP Haue you not yett learned howe vaine a thinge it is to argue ab authorita â— neâ—a ua Produce you some aun ient creede where the churche is called the christian churche which thoughe you cannot doe yett I hope you will not denie the catholicke churche to be rightlie so called Neither is the Roman church taken for a parte of the catholike churche as you either falselie or foolishlie surmise but for the whole as the kinge of England is not taken onlie to be kinge of Englande but of the rest of his kingdomes also the whole takinge name of one parte as is ordinarie euen in common speach which you cannot be ignorant of PILK Yett you say this vniuersall particular churche admitteth a larger Canon then the protestants you meane the Apocripha And so it standeth her in hand otherwise shee might bid a dieu to diuerse profitable points that helpe her to vphoulde her Monarchie But the churche of God before Christ receiued them not but the same which the protestants doe embrace Neither read we that Christe or anie of his Apostles did cite anie testimonie out of them to confirme any doctrâ—ne by them which they did out of all the canonicall bookes Besides if we followe S. August iudgment whereby we may discerne suspitious writinge from canonicall then these wil easilie appeare to be conterfaites First saith he they are not such as the churche credited received into canonicall authoritie Secondlie there be manie thinges imbarked in them which Apostolicall rule of faith and sound doctrine doth contradict both these are verified of the Apocripha For neither the churche of God before Christ receiued them to whom were committed the oracles of God Rom. 3. 2. which Christe woulde haue reprooued them for if they had without iust cause reiected them as well as he did reprehend them for the misinterpretinge of the canonicall bookes neither yett longe after Christe did the Christian churche imbrace them And besides in the bookes them selues there are certaine brandes whereby they may be discerned from the canonicall First the addition vnto the booke of Hester saith that Mardocheus had receiued rewardes for the detection of the conspiracie of the kinges Chamberlaynes the true Hester sayth he receiued none The suppositius Hester saith that Haman intended the the destruction of Mardocheus for detectinge the Eunuches Hest. 12. 6. The true Hester saith for denyinge him worshippe Hester 3. 5. The true Hester the kinge looked gratiouslie vppon her the conterfeit he looked angerlie The booke of Baruch saith that the cittie of Hierusalem was taken and burnt at the same tyme Ieremie teacheth the contrarie the bookes of the kinges The additions vnto Daniell say that when Danyell deliuered Susanna he was a childe the true Daniell saith that he with two others made by the kinge were chiefe ouer 120. princes that they might take all the accompts of the kingdome and the kinge might not be troubled But children vse not to be sett ouer such affaires Commentitiues Daniell saith in the storie of Bell that he was fed by Abacucke 14. 36. whereas Abacucke prophesied longe before the captiuitie 1. 6. In the booke of Tobie cap. 12. 15 the Angell calleth himselfe Raphaell the Angell of the Lorde but chapter the 5. 12. he is of the kinred of Ananias and Azarias the greate if he be the Angell of the Lorde he cannot be the sonne of a man As true is that medecine wherwith the deuill is driuen away but corporall creatures vse not to make anie impression into a substance simply intellectuall as deuills be In Iudith the cruell murther committed by Symeon and Leui is propounded to be imitated cap. 8. 23. which Genesis the 49. is reprehended and accursed The booke of wisdome is falselie intituled as it had been composed by Salomon whereas the author of it was Philo the Iewe. Ecclesiasticus craueth pardon if he come shorte in some wordes which the penmen of the holy Ghost vsed not to doe In the bookes of the Maccabies a parricide is commended that layde handes on himselfe which is forbidden by the lawe So your longe Canon hath but certayn inches that are true and perfect the rest are but leaden and crooked yet for all this you say CHAMP That the catholike Romane churche admitteth a larger Canon that is as the Manuall saith moe bookes and parcells of the Bible for holy scripture then the protestants doe is so manifest that you dare not denie it Nowe whether these bookes and parcells of bookes be apocripha or noe is in controuersie you affirminge them so to be and we denyinge it Which question cannot here be disputed or discussed for confoundinge of matters Onlie this I say by the way to your obiections made against them that if you doe stand to S. Aug iudgment in this pointe to whome you make shewe to appeale the cause is lost on your parte and if you will not beleeue me reade his seconde booke de Doctrina Christiana cap 5. 6. and be your owne iudge Againe your exceptions against the bookes in controuersie are such as if they were admitted for sufficient to prooue them Apocripha I dare vndertake to prooue all or the most parte of the bookes in the Bible to be Apocripha And this I will make good whensoeuer you dare vppon equall conditions to chalenge me therunto See therfore I pray what a friende you are to the holy scripture that open such and so wide a gappe to take quite away all scripture And this shall suffice for answere to all your tedious discourse in this section Manuall Catholike position the first That all such articles as by her the Catholike Roman churche and the protestants are beleeued and holden for articles of faith are not so expressely contayned in the holy scriptures as out of them onlie full proofe may be made thereof PILK This position is so doubtfullie sett downe as if of purpose you would walke in a cloude that your reader might not perceiue you For if by expresselie you meane wordes and sillables then it is true that all articles of faith are not contayned in holy scriptures in so manie wordes but if you meane the sence and substance and that which may be deduced by necessarie consequence then it is
neither baptisinge of infants nor baptisinge by heretikes are written in the scripture and yett prooueth both out of them This is the answere of that worthy diuine D. Fulke CHAMP Both you and your worthy diuine D. Fulke corrupt S. Chrisost who saith it is manifest by the testimonie of the Apostle that they deliuered not all by Epistles but manie thinges without letters marke these wordes without letters and see whether they will stand with your glosse You here confesse against your selfe that S Aug saith neither baptisme of infants nor by heretikes is written and therefore consequentlie beleeued by tradition But you say he neuerthelesse prooueth both by scriptures He sheweth indeede by scriptures that they are not contrarie to scriptures but that they are either commaunded or warranted by scriptures he shewed not but recurreth to tradition and the authoritie of the churche So that the confirmation of your glosse vppon S. Chrisostome out of S. Aug is as voluntarie as the glosse it selfe PILK This is the answere of that worthie diūine Dr. Fulke to the obiection of the Rhemists cited not by him but by them out of S. Chrisostome which I wounder howe you impute to him except you would haue your reader to conceiue that he fauoreth your opinion which he directlie impugneth in that place CHAMP I knowe that amongst other peruersities of that affected wrangler Fulke this is one which for his name hath not the more but much lesse probabilitie because he euerie where impugneth the manifest truth Nor did I impute it to him for the end you say for I desire not his fauour in the behalfe of the catholike truth beinge a peruerse enemie thereof but for this reason that the protestant reader should not suspect the place to be cited by me more fauorablie then it was in it selfe Manuall Proofe 2. O Timothie keepe the depositum that is that which is committed to thy trust not certes by writinge For litle or nothinge written of the newe testament was knowne to Timothy then See a large discourse hereuppon in Vincentius Lirinensis PILK This is nothinge to the purpose For whether that which was comitted to Timothies trust be vnderstoode his flocke as Lyra conceiueth it or those gifts which were bestowed vppon him for the edifiinge of the people as Aquinas iudgeth it is farr from your inference that vnwritten traditions are of equall creditt with the scriptures Vincentius fauoureth not your traditions att all For that which was committed to Timothie is in his opinion the talent of catholike faith whereof he was not the author but the keeper not an ordayner but a follower not a leader but one that is ledd Loe this is the catholike faith contayned in the scriptures not traditions of other doctrine beside them or without them PILK The depositum which S. Paule speaketh of is the whole christian doctrine deliuered by the Apostles to theire disciples to keepe and to deliuer to others as is manifest by the wordes followinge in the same text O Timothie saith he keepe the depositum auoydinge the prophane nouelties of voyces and oppositions of falslie called knowledge Verie litle of which doctrine beinge then written it must necessarilie be vnderstoode of tradition And this is Vincentius Lirinensis doctrine which you cannott denie though you would obscure it a litle in wordes sayinge the depositum is the catholike faith where if you meane the thinges belieued you say the same that I say if you meane the act or habitt of faith you speake against common sence For that is not the depositum comitted to Timothie by S. Paule but the vertue of faith geuen him by God neither is it formallie opposed to the prophane nouelties to be auoyded by him but the vertue or act whereby we assent vnto the articles of faith and verities proposed vnto vs. Manuall Proofe 3. But if anie man seeme to be contentious we haue no such custome nor the churche of God Where S. Paule alleageth the custome of the churche as a sufficient disproofe of any practise why not therefore for the proofe of anie PILK Our question is of doctrines of faith to be beleeued and receiued of all not of rites and ceremonies concerninge externall order of the churche whereof the Apostle treateth in that place This therefore is nothinge to the purpose nor touchinge our question att all and yett S. Paule alleageth not onlie custome but geueth a reason of it in the wordes goinge before which you seldome doe satisfy your proselites but persuade them to beleeue and hange faith vppon your credit as if it were impossible you shoulde be deceiued CHAMP Our question is as well of manners or thinges to be obserued as of faith and so is the former Catholike position of the Manuall conceiued and sett downe neither is the authoritie of traditions either more fallible or lesse necessarie in the one then in the other Or if you thinke the contrarie geue vs some sufficient reason or proofe thereof besides your owne bare assertion Which if you cannot seeinge you are constrained by the euidence of scripture to admitte the authoritie of tradition in the one you cannott without wilfull obstinacie reiect it in the other And thoughe S. Paule geueth some reasons of his doctrine in that place yett he recurreth to the custome of the churche as to the most effectuall and forcible argument against those that are obstinat and contentious as you are Manuall Proofe 4. The things thou hast heard of me by manie witnesses these comend to the faithfull men which shall be fitt to teach others also Loe no worde here of writinge but of hearinge and teachinge by word of mouth Nowe hauinge prooued by scripture it selfe euident instances that manie thinges are to be beleeued that are not directlie contayned in scripture it appeareth a senceles thinge to demande proofe of euery thinge we beleeue out of scriptures PILK Whereas Paule chargeth Timothie to commend those thinges to faithfull witnesses which he had learned of him where there is no mention of writinge but teachinge by worde I woulde gladlie demande of this Papiste if he woulde with patience endure anie of vs thus wildlie reasoninge These thinges were taught and hearde and commended to faithfull witnesses therefore not written The Bereans hearde S. Paule teach but the same things they founde in the scriptures Thus Aquinas interpreteth this place these thinges which thou hast hearde of me and of Christe I say not of one onlie but confirmed by manie witnesses vid. the Lawe and the Prophetts So thinges were not onlie taught by worde but confirmed by the doctrine of the oulde testament CHAMP This reasoninge is not wilde but firme and good especiallie accordinge to your groundes who teach that nothinge is to be beleeued that is not written For seeinge it is no where written that these thinges which S. Paule taught and comended to Timothie to teach to others were committed to writinge you cannot beleeue that they were written but by
shall not be to ani purpose in way of answere that anie aduersarie bringe another interpretation of some father vpon the places of scripture alleaged by me beside that which I haue brought For it is not denyed that one and the same place of scripture may be and is often diuerslie vnderstoode not onlie of diuerse fathers but of one and the same father But if he will say anie thinge to the purpose in this kinde he must bringe an interpretation contradictinge that which I haue brought and withall labour rather to prooue his owne doctrine then to impugne that of the catholickes For seeinge it is as all men knowe a farr more easie thinge to impugne anie doctrine thoughe neuer so true then to prooue the same no truth especiallie of faith beinge so euidentlie cleare but that somethinge with shewe of probabilitie may be obiected against it it is not nowe expected that anie aduersarie should stand to answere those authorities of scripture and fathers which I haue alleaged for proofe of the catholicke doctrine or to impugne the same but rather to bring others in proofe of his owne That the iudicious reader may compare our groundes in scripture both together and by the viewe of his owne eie try whether of them be more conformeable to gods sacred worde And wheÌ„ anie one shall haue produced his proofes for protestantisme in like manner as I haue in the behalfe of the catholicke religion if he can so doe yett shall he gaine no more thereby but an euident demonstration against the cheefest groundes of the protestants doctrine that eitherto the true and full decision of controuersies in matter of faith is necessarilie required some other iudgment or tryall then the onlie wordes of holie scripture or else that there is no meanes at all to end matters of controuersies of faith which latter neuerthelesse to affirme is no lesse iniurious to gods wisdome goodnes and power then to say that he hath prouided no sufficient meanes for men to knowe the way to saue their soules For both parties bringinge scriptures for themselues who shall finallie determine whether of them doth applie the sayd scriptures more sincerelie and according to theire true meaninge PILK Your demaundes doe so crosse one another as if your thoughts had been at warres together First you prescribe your aduersarie howe he shall answere you not by bringing another sence of anie father vppon the place of scripture alleaged by you but a coÌ„tradictorie And theÌ„ you forbidde him to answere either scripture or father vrged by you but to fortifie prooue his owne doctrine But you must be coÌ„teÌ„t whether you wil or noe to suffer your aduersary to vnmaske your fraude and to open the vayle of your cunninge dealing both in your doubtfull positions and impertinent allegations by sheweinge the natiue sence of the scriptures euen from the fathers to haue no concurrence with your imaginations but to contradict them and then he will be content to acquainte you with the groundes of his doctrine which either ignorantlie you mistake or purposelie peruert which beinge paralleld with yours the reader may iudge on which side the truth standeth CHAMP Your head is so full of crochets that you imagine my wordes to crosse one another or else you say so onlie to make your lesse heedfull reader to thinke so vppon your creditt I neither prescribe to mine aduersarie how hee should answere mee neither doe I forbidd him to answere either scripture or Fathers alleaged by me as you are pleased to faigne out of your owne braine which notwithstandinge if I hadd donne yett hadd there been no crossinge betwixte those thinges as euerie man may easilie see but I tel him what manner of answere wil be to the purpose and what will not and further I require he should first sett downe his owne beleefe with the proofe thereof out of the scriptures which two thinges doe not crosse one another in anie mans iudgment but yours besides the reasoÌ„ which I geue both for the one and the other is clearlie good and true For your vnmaskinge of my fraude spare it not in gods name and I promise you that if you discouer but one quarter of those blotttes and blemishes in my face that I haue alreadie donne in yours I will hide it for euer that it neuer appeare in publike more But nowe I will hearken howe you wil performe the greate thinges you here promise PILK But this is no parte of your meaninge at all that your reader shoulde trye by the scriptures as the Bereans did and so rest himselfe satisfied CHAMP My meaninge good Sr. is that the reader should searche the scriptures alleaged by me in proofe of the catholicke saith and trâ—e whether he finde them not so as I haue cited them which the Bereans did Whereby he shall finde the chatholicke doctrine to be trulie grounded vppon the holy scriptures and consormeable vnto them as the Bereans did finde S Paules doctrine to be thoughe they were boundâ— to beleeue his preachinge without that research PILK But your drifte is after you haue sett the scriptures togeather by the eares to thrust vppon him the authoritie of the Pope who must finallie determine on which side the sence of the scripture bendeth and then I doubte not but you shall winne the day CHAMP My drifte is to make the reader see that the catholike faith hath true grounde in the holy scriptures and if you or anie other will shewe the same for your newe doctrine the reader must necessarilie see that he must finde somes meanes to knowe to whether side the true sence of the scriptures doth trulie agree And if he finde that the Pope who is cheife head of all those to whom our Sauiour sayde he that heareth you heareth me geueth sentence for the allegations on the catholicke side as you confesse there is no doubte but he will If he haue anie true care of his soule he will beleeue and followe that parte PILK For thus you carrie the matter when both parties haue brought scriptures for themselues out the letter of the scriptures not opposinge the letter to the sence as you falselie say I meane but seekinge and takinge the sence from the letter onlie Is not this your doctrine in this verie section you cannot denie it vnlesse you haue a face to say and vnsay at euerie turne Cast vp therefore once more your owne cardes and see what other Iudge you make of controuersies besides the onlie wordes of scripture Therefore either blushe your selfe or if your face be so brasen that you cannot bidd some other blush for you that you either vnderstande not your owne doctrine or are ashamed to acknoweledge and maintaine it I knowe to what end is all this florishe of wordes to raise vppe a little smoake before your readers eies that you may steale away and leaue the difficultie which you knowe presseth you harde vutouched you shall not scape so I wisse PILK If then
expressed in the holy scripture Or it is sufficient beinge lefte in the hands of the church to expound and interprete it but it is not sufficient for euerie one to picke his faith and beleefe out of And consequentlie another rule to witt the churches authoritie in vnderstandinge and interpretinge the scriptures is necessarie as the same father teacheth in these expresse wordes Some man may peraduenture aske for asmuch as the Canon of the scriptures is persect and in all pointes verie sufficient in it selfe what neede is there to ioyne thereunto the authoritie of the Ecclesiasticall vnderstandinge for this cause surelie for that all take not the holy scriptures in the same sence because of the deepnes thereof but the sayinges thereof some interprete one way and some another so that there may almoste as manie sences be picked out of it as there be men For Nouatian doth expounde it one way and Sabellius another way otherwise Arrius Eunomius Macedonius otherwayes Photinus Apollinaris Priscillianus otherwayes Iouinian Pelagius Celestus lastlie otherwayes Victorius Thus farr he who as you see expresselie admitteth as necessarie the rule of Ecclesiasticall authoritie besides the scriptures which is that we contend aboute PILK This clearelie is S. Aug. doctrine and the rest of the fathers not your crooked inference that the authority of the churche is a more vniuersall and more auncient rule then the scriptures for where hath he anie word to this purpose I woulde not haue beleeued the gospel except the authoritie of the churche had moued me are too weake to inserr any such like conclusion thoughe we admitte them in your corrupt translation For it is plaine he speaketh not these wordes of the present tyme when he was a Bishoppe as you reade them but of the tyme past when he was a Manichy Beinge a Catholicke a Bishoppe when he writte that booke he had farr other motiues to beleeue the Gospell then the authority of the church which here he alone nameth Take one place for a thousande I take my conscience to witnes Honoratus and God that dwelleth in pure myndes that I thinke nothinge more wise chaste religious then all these scriptures which the catholicke churche retayneth vnder the name of the olde and new testament I knowe thou wounderest but I cannot dâ—ssemble I was otherwise persuaded Howsoeuer then beinge an hereticke he thought of the scriptures yett nowe become a catholicke he beleeued them for that prudence chastitie pietie which he founde in them CHAMP Nowe lett vs see howe you will quitte your selfe of the authority of S. Aug sett downe in the Manuall you say it is too weake to serue our turne because he spake not of the present tyme when he was Byshoppe and wrote that booke but when he was a Manichie A poore and silie shifte God wotte lett his owne wordes witnes what his meaning is Ego EuaÌ„gelio non crederem nisi me Ecclesi 〈…〉 s coÌ„moueret I woulde not beleeue the Gospell but that the churches authority did moue me He saith not noÌ„ credidissem nisi commoâ—isset I had not beleeued had not the authoritie moued me as you corruptlie translate or if I doe produce your coppie for myne hath crederem commoueret which if you will translate had beleeued and had moued you shall be putt to your Accidence againe But beit that he spake of himselfe as being a Manichie which is as true as that he was a Manichie when he wrote this this is so far from fauoringe your cause that it maketh it much worse For if the churches authoritie had force to moue an hereticke to beleeue the gospell what man not depriued of common sence will denie but it hath at least the like force with a catholike But you say that S. Aug beinge a catholike had other motiues to beleeue the scriptures then the authoritie of the churche beit so what will you inferre thereof for your purpose or against me nothinge att all yea the testimonie alleaged by you out of him doth sufficiently witnes that the authority of the church did still moue him to beleeue the scriptures seeing he restraineth himselfe to those scriptures which the catholike churche receiueth and retayneth PILK Againe if by the churche you meane the present church and by the present church her rulers and guides as your consorts vsuallie doe then is it most absurde to thinke that S. August and the rest of the Bishoppes of his tyme beleeued the gospell for the authoritie of the churche for that had been for theire owne authoritie and so they had beleeued the gospell for themselues CHAMP If you hadd but one dramme of good Logicke you could not but haue seene your argument to haue been most idle and not beseeminge a doctor of diuinitie For no nouice in logicke but knoweth that an argument taken from all the partes together or collectiue to euerie one in seuerall or particular concludeth nothinge affirmatiuelie Such an one is yours beinge this is substance S. Aug. and the rest of the bishoppes beleeue the Gospell for the authoritie of the present churche but S. Aug. and the rest of the Bishoppes are the present churche ergo they beleeue the Gospell for themselues Or if you doe not yett see your owne seelines in this argument compare it with this and peraduenture you will espie it Richarde Pilkinton and the rest of the ministers of the churche of Englande beleeue the 39. articles to be good and lawfull for the authoritie of the churche of Englande But Richarde Pilkinton and the rest of the ministers are the churche of Englande ergo they beleeue the 39. articles for themselues PILK But if diuers papists be not deceiued S. Aug. meaneth not the present churche but the churche which was in the Apostles tyme that sawe Christs miracles and heard his preachinge and so this speach of S. August helpeth you nothinge excepte you canne prooue that the present churche hath the same authoritie with the Apostles which your owne Driedo flathe denieth Ecclesia primitiua propter collegium Apostolorum ad tradendam nouam nostrae fidei Doctrinam maioris erat gratiae maiorisque authoritatis quam Ecclesia quae nunc est Accordinge to the Doctrine of S. August and Hierome CHAMP Thoughe S. Aug. shoulde meane the churche in the Apostles tyme excludinge the present churche which is false yett woulde this ouerthrowe your cause For whence coulde he receiue the testimonie of that churche but by authoritie of the churches present and precedent And yett this serueth sufficientlie my turne to prooue some other rule of beleefe besides and before the scriptures which is our controuersie here That which you alleage out of our Driedo doth not prooue the present churche to be lesse infallible in her iudgmeÌ„t in matters of faith then the churche in the Apostles tyme neither doth anie catholicke say so For seinge it is gouerned by the same spirit of truth which was promised shoulde remaine with her for euer shee cannot be
other of Arriminum the former of which had ratified the consubstantialitie of the sonne and the other reuoked it and tyeth both himselfe and the Arrian onlie to the scriptures as knowinge this pointe of faith fullie to be prooued of them CHAMP Your mouth meriteth well the stopinge that doth so farr and fowlie ouerflowe as to say that S. Aug doth euidentlie except against the authoritie of the churche What haue you so soone forgott that he protested he would not beleeue the go pell but that the authoritie of the churche moued him you haue be like some as euident and expresse wordes of his exception against the churche authoritie as this is for it or else your assertion is moste shameles let vs here I pray you what he saith PILK Neither ought I saith S. Aug. to vrge the councell of Nice nor thou that of Arriminum I am not tyed to the authoritie of the one nor thou of the other but out of the scriptures that are not parties but common witnesses vnto vs both lett matter to matter cause to cause reason to reason be indifferentlie opposed CHAMP Howe willinglie you deceiue your selfe and wilfullie labour to deceiue others I must needes thinke that it is malice or peruersitie not ignorance that maketh you abuse this place of S Aug who hauing sayde that the worde â—omoâ—sion beinge by the catholike fathers in the councell of Nice by the authoritie of truth and truth of authoritie established was after in the councell of Arriminum vnder the hereticall Emperour Constantius by the fraude of a fewe disliked but afterwardes acknowledged he cometh to say But nowe neither I ought to vse the authoritie of the councell of Nice nor thou of the counsell of Arriminum but such testimonie of scripture as are common to both Where S. Aug. is as farr from exceptinge against the authoritie of the church in the councell of Nice as I am nowe from exceptinge against the authoritie of the councell of Trent in that I doe not vse it against you but am content to deale with you by the scriptures which beinge receiued by vs both are irreproueable witnesses In this therefore noe other sorte doth S. August omitte to vrge the authoritie of the councell of Nice against his aduersarie Maximian the Arrian and tye himselfe to the scriptures then I doe nowe tye my selfe to the scriptures omitting to vrge the authoritie of the councell of Trent against you a protestant And tell me I pray you did S. Aug thinke you esteeme lesse of the Nicen councel then you doe you wil not say it I suppose And doe not you geue vnto it that authority to define matters of faith against heretikes and admitte of the doctrine thereof as orthodoxe and catholike and which ought to be receiued of all christians you will not deny it Why therefore doe you say S. August euidentlie excepteth against the authoritie of the churche because he woulde not tye his aduersarie in that dispute to the authoritie of the Nicene councell which he professeth to haue been decreed by the authoritie of truth and truth of authoritie But you delight not onlie to err your selfe but also to drawe others into errour with you PILK Where then is your inference that this scripture without the interpretation of the churche doth not fullie prooue the Father and the sonne to be one in substance as if the scriptures before the churches interpretation prooue onlie probable after her interpretation fullie This I gather to be your meaninge because Bellarmine affirmeth from whose haruest you haue gathered these gleaninges that the scriptures expressed by a councell doe firmelie and certainlie prooue that which before they did not firmelie prooue And of S. August he saith that he bringeth certaine coniectures out of scriptures which after the definition of a councell and triall of written traditions haue some force to confirme truth which of themselues ar not sufficient CHAMP My inference standeth good nor is it anie way impeached by S. Aug euen in this place by you alleaged as alreadie appeareth Besides in his booke de vera religione cap. 1. he hath these expresse wordes who is not starke madd and easilie vnderstandeth not that the exposition of scriptures is to be sought from them who professe themselues teachers of the same He meaneth the pastours and doctours of the churche And concerninge this place Ego pater vnum sumus read S. Athanasius his Epistle ad Episcopos Arrianos and see howe they were conuinced with it or if you will not looke so farr make a litle inquirie of Legats answere vnto it That which you say of the scriptures before and after the churches interpretation and likwise of S. Aug out of Bellarmine though I find noe such thinge in the place of Bellar. by you cited in the catholicke sence is true That is the scriptures before the iudgment of the church of the true sence and meaninge thereof make noe full proofe vnto vs of the articles of our faith Not because they receiue anie truthe or force in respect of themselues from the churche they being the infallible worde of God but because they beinge capable of diuerse sences and subiect to be vnderstoode diuerslie as you your selfe will not denie of these fewe and plaine wordes hoc est corpus meum without some authoritie to interprete them the true sence and meaninge of them cannot assuredlie be knowne vnto vs. And therefore hath God placed in his church pastours and doctors to deliuer vnto his people the true meaning of his worde and hath promised to be with them alwayes that to heare them is to heare himselfe PILK Lett this be marked For when we say that the scriptures doe prooue fullie articles of faith we take not away subordinate meanes whereby we may see and learne the fulnes of the scriptures but we exclude all outwarde and aduentitious authoritie to supplie the supposed weaknes in them and to adde strength and firmenes vnto them CHAMP Necessitie and the verie euidence of truth forceth you to confesse some meanes to learne the true ence and meaninge of the scriptures but your owne peruersitie and obstinacy will not permitte you to speak plainlie What doe you I play vnderstande by subordinate meanes which you say you exclude not and what doe you meane by aduentitious authoritie doe you meane the authoritie of the churche so your wordes followinge doe insinuate But shewe you as clearly out of the scripture the authoritie of the churche to be excluded as strange and aduentitious as we will shewe you that it is ratyfied established and commended vnto vs as an vnfallible guide and teacher of truth and then we will geue some creditt to your wordes but till then which will be neuer knowe yee that yee are prooued to contemne scripture and all other authoritie saue onlie your owne foolishe fancie which you make to be iudge of the holy scripture it selfe PILK Which strength the papists say
CHAMP This authoritie is like the rest impertinent to your purpose and rather against you then for you For he that defendeth the authoritie of the churche and these thinges that are taught by her defendeth nothinge from without the bookes of God but he that defendeth the contrarie as you doe doth euidently impugne the gospell S. Hill willeth the Arrian Emperour to heare these thinges that are written of Christ as this he is one with his father and the like and then he should be farr from beleeuinge that which is no where written to witt that he is a creature and inferiour to his father Your cause is most miserable and despicable seeinge it is forced to begge testimonie of such extorted witnesses And nowe I leaue to the iudicious reader be he catholicke or protestant to iudge whether the catholicke positions of this first controuersie sett downe in the Manuall be not both more clearlie expressed and more firmelie and trulie prooued by scripture then the protestant position sett downe by Mr. Pilkinton which is the chiefe issue of our controuersie and dispute And further whether the positions sett downe in the Manuall vnder the title of protestant positions be not truly and iustly ascribed vnto them and more directlie pertayninge to the controuersie heere discussed then the others proposed by him MANVALL The second Controuersie of traditions Catholike position 1. The holy Apostles diliuered by worde of mouth moe thinges to be beleeued obserued by the churche then either they found written or wrote themselues And these thinges are vsuallie called traditions PILK You haue gotten a wolfe by the eare when you fasten on traditions if you lett them goe they carrie with them a great parte of your faith if you holde them fast you shewe you cannot prooue your faith from scriptures For you freelie and plainlie tell vs what your churche meaneth by traditions not interpretation of that which is written but addition and suppliment of that which is not For moe thinges say you are to be beleeued and obserued then either the Apostles wrote or founde written and these are traditions Let the reader marke this for the question here betwixt vs is not of interpretation of scriptures nor of rites and ceremonies that haue correspondence with them which here he carrieth vnder the name of thinges to be obserued but of doctrines and matters of faith which are thinges to be beleeued all which saith he were neuer written in the old testament nor yet in the newe CHAMP You putt me in minde of the fable of the fox that hauinge lost his owne tayle would needes perswade his fellowes to cutt of theires So you beinge out of loue with traditions woulde perswade vs to reiect them also But we are not so soone moued we professe to beleeue diuerse things for traditions sake and that by warrant of scripture whereunto if you did geue so much creditt as you would be thought to doe you woulde also beleeue the same And seing you yeeld alreadie the one halfe of the controuersie to witt traditions of thinges to be obserued for of these thinges you say there is no question betweene vs I will not dispaire to euict the other part of thinges also to be beleeued from you PILK Nowe this is a manifest vntruth For there is not anie article of faith which the Apostles founde not in the scriptures of the prophetts nor which either the euangelists or themselues did not consigne vnto vs in theire writings which thinge any man may finde to be true that will take paines to consider the articles of the Apostolike creede one by one which either haue proofe out of the ould testament or else the Apostles did not double all theire doctrines out of the scriptures Contrary to S. Paules practise acts 26. 22. CHAMP Howe manifest an vntruth it is that the Apostles taught more then either they found written or wrot themselues we shall see in the processe of this controuersie In the meane while I tell you that you affirme boldlie but prooue nothinge And why doe you referr vs to the Apostles creede for proofe of your vniuersall affirmation Is nothinge to be beleeued but that which is therein contayned what find you I pray you in the creede touchinge either the number or the nature of the Sacraments of theire efficacie or necessitie of originall sinne of the fall of the Angells with manie moe articles beleeued by all christians And yett you confirme your proofe farr more absurdlie by supposinge that the Apostles doubled that is your worde where you learned it I knowe not al theire doctrine out of scripture which is the thinge in question and therefore most absurdlie brought for proofe of the same Againe what necessitie had the Apostles to double theire doctrine as you say out of the scriptures Hadd they not authoritie to preach anie thinge but what they founde alreadie in the scriptures What Christian euer dreamed of such doctrine as you haue deliuered here But this was S. Paules practise you say But you are either ignorantlie or wilfullie mistakē and that most grosselie For thoughe S. Paule and the rest of the Apostles preached nothinge contrarie to the doctrine of the old testament but contrariwise shewed howe the auncient prophecies were fulfilled by our Sauiour Christ which S. Paules auditours at Boerea findinge by conferinge his doctrine with the prophets were much confirmed in theire faith yett is it noe where sayd that either he or the rest preached nothinge but that they founde written Neither did this paradoxe euer enter into anie mans heade but Mr. Pilkintons PILK Reade saith Ireneus diligentlie the Gospell which the Apostles haue geuen vs and read also diligentlie the prophetts and you shall finde all the actions and passions of our lorde yea all his doctrine for to be preached your proofes haue as much truth as the Carthaginians faith CHAMP S. Ireneus saith no more but that there is a great and manifest conformitie or agreement betweene the Prophetts and Apostles preachinge and doctrine which as it is most true so is it as much to your purpose as Paules steeple is to Charinge Crosse And whether my proofes or yours haue more affinitie with the Carthaginian faith lett the indifferent reader iudge MANVALL Proofe of the catholike position 1. Hauinge moe thinges to write vnto you I woulde not by paper and Inke For I hope I shall be with you and speake mouth to mouth PILK These well conclude that in this shorte Epistle S. Iohn did not write all the poyntes of faith but that others of the Apostles did not write them he saith not a word What loose reasoninge is this S. Iohn did not write all in these Epistles therefore the rest did not For whatsoeuer is necessarie vnto saluation and of faith though there it be not to be found yet in the writings of the other Apostles it is to be read CHAMP Seeinge I haue by your confession prooued out of the scripture that this Apostle
it necessarie to beleeue that they wrote the wordes thereof and then it is not to the purpose to proue your positioÌ„ which is of thinges to be beleeued and not of wordes But if by the creede you vnderstande the matter of it and thinges to be beleeued then it is vntrue that the Apostles writte it not and all thinges contayned therein which thinges haue continued in our churche as the obiect of our faith not for tradition onlie as you ignorantly say but because they are recorded in the holy scripture CHAMP Shewe me then in theire writings I meane the Apostles the discention of our Sauiour into hell and the catholicke churche which Luther loued so little that he turned it the christian churche Thoughe we beleeue not onlie the parcells of the creede but the whole creede together And that the Apostles made it which is no where expressed in scripture And if I say ignorantlie that the creede as it is composed by the Apostles and therefore receiued and beleeued of all christians in al ages hath continued in the church vntill this day by tradition only shewe it me written in the scriptures and I will confesse myne ignorance and correct my wordes But seeinge you cannot performe that I tell you that you impudentlie affirme that it hath other continuance then by tradition opposinge tradition to the canonicall scripture onlie Manuall Proofe 7. They taught Baptisme administred by heretikes to be good and therefore S. Aug. speakinge thereof saith Manie thinges which are not found in the Apostles writinges nor in the latter councells yet because they are obserued by the whole churche are beleeued to be deliuered and recommended by none but by theÌ„ Againe he saith There are manie thinges which the whole church doth hold and therefore are well beleeued to be commaunded by the Apostles albeyt they be not found written PILK That Baptisme ministred by heretikes was preached by the Apostles but not written hath as much truth as the rest For whereas Cyprian hath taught that Baptisme of heretikes was not good and therefore to be reiterated S. Aug. crosseth him and prooueth the contrarie out of the ghospell and out of the wordes of the Apostle Ephe. 4. And this is so frequent with that father that it maketh me thinke you haue not read him of that argument but gleaned out of others that might serue your turne So pâ—lpably are you deceiued to thinke that S. August conceiued this to be an vnwritten tradition without ground of scripture for thus he writeth That I may not seeme to prooue it by humane arguments I will bringe foorth certayne documents out of the scripture And whereas Cyprian had taught that for proofe of this we must haue recourse vnto the fountayne of Apostolicall tradition that is the scriptures S. Aug approoueth it and saith that the Apostles deliuered that there is one God one Christe one baptisme and therefore baptisme of heretikes is firme and not to be repeated When then he saith of this as of other thinges that they are not founde in the Apostles writinges nor in latter councells c. And there be manie thinges which the whole churche doth holde and therfore are well beleeued to be commended by the Apostles albeyt they be not found written Which wordes are in his 2. booke contra Donatistas cap. 7. and not lib. 5. cap. 27. as you cited them His meaninge is they are not written in so manie wordes but the groundes of them are layd in the scriptures and thence necessarilie they may be concluded This is playne out of Aug. for hauinge vttered these wordes vrged by you when he draweth to an ende of this disputation he thus concludeth It might suffice that our reasons beinge so often repeated and diuerselie debated and handled in disputinge and the documents of holy scripture beinge added and so manie testimonies of Cyprian concurringe By this tyme I thinke the weaker sorte of men vnderstande that the baptisme of Christe cannot be violated by the peruersnes of the partie that geueth or receiueth it Loe howe be bringeth documents out of scripture to prooue that the peruersnes of heretikes peruerteth not the baptisme of Christe and therfore baptisme ministred by hereticks is good CHAMP Is it be written by the Apostles that the Baptisme of heretikes is sufficient and not to be reiterated why doe not you shewe the place and confound your aduersarie But you had rather impudeÌ„tlie affirme an vntruth theÌ„ ingeniously acknowledg a cleare veritie As thoughe if it hadd been so clearly fully taught in holy scripture as you are bound to shewe it S. Cyprian who had a much iudgmeÌ„t to discerne it as you att least and noe lesse good will to acknowledge it nor yett lesse industrie and diligence to seeke it could not he haue esped it And howsoeuer here you wilfullie wrangle out of S. Aug as though he acknowledged not the Baptisme of heretikes by tradition yett two pages after you in expresse wordes confesse that he saith neither baptisme of infants nor by heretikes are written in scripture And though you interpret him both here and there to meane that they are not founde written in so manie wordes but that the groundes notwithstandinge from whence they may be necessarilie concluded are layd in the scriptures yett is this your glosse meerelie voluntarie clearlie against S. August meaninge and common sence Or iâ— not why doe not you frame some argument which by necessary consequence may conclude out of the groundes layd in scripture abstractinge from the authoritie of the churche and tradition either of these two articles But it is more easie for you to affirme twentie positions then to prooue one Manuall catholike position 2. The Catholike churche doth and ought to beleeue those thinges which the Apostles deliuered by worde of mouth without writinge in the same degree of faith with those that are written PILK For answere vnto this lett the iudicious reader obserue that it is the vsuall doctrine of Papists to teach that all points of Christian beliefe which are necessarie for all men were publikelie preached by the Apostles to all men and recorded in the register of holy scripture But besides these there were diuers thinges committed to prelats and priests that were more perfect men which they taught them a parte accordinge to that which S. Paule saith we speake wisdome amonge them that are perfect And these be theire traditions which they would haue equallie credited with the scriptures Nowe this was the verie doctrine of the auncient heretikes Valentinians Cerintheans Marcionists c. For abusinge the scripture and aduancinge traditioÌ„s grounded on the same foundation as the fathers tell vs. And these be thinges which the protestants denie to be equall with the scriptures for they graunt that the Apostles in the beginninge of theire embassage write not the whole doctrine which they preached but deliuered parte by worde of mouth and parte by writinge howbeit they consigned the Canon of the scripture and