Selected quad for the lemma: doctrine_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
doctrine_n	article_n	church_n	creed_n	2,425	5	10.1630	5	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A87879	An answer to the Marques of Worcester's last paper; to the late King. Representing in their true posture, and discussing briefly, the main controversies between the English and the Romish Church. Together with some considerations, upon Dr Bayly's parenthetical interlocution; relating to the Churches power in deciding controversies. To these is annext, Smectymnuo-Mastix : or, short animadversions upon Smectymnuus in the point of lyturgie. / By Hamon L'Estrange, Esqr.	L'Estrange, Hamon, 1605-1660.	1651 (1651)	Wing L1187; Wing L1191; Thomason E1218_2; ESTC R202717	68,906	120

the avoidance of one for a man may err in retractation of what he hath said as Bellarmine hath done more than once as well as in saying what he retracts but in one place there must of necessity be an Error light that Error where it may that Church which so erreth I shall be loath to trust with matters of Faith The last Rub in his Lordships way is so inconsiderable as I shall stride over it and accompany him to his Church M. First we hold the Real Presence you deny it we say his Body is there you say there is nothing but Bread Before I come to direct Answer I shall briefly and I hope not impertinently premise First it is fit those Opposite Terms of We and You being so considerable should be further explain'd What is meant by We is little question'd the M. certainly intends the Romish Church what by You he does not clearly resolve us till p. 159. and there he tells us in capital letters 't is The Church of England and indeed writing English to an English King not Head but a Member though the noblest of the English Church it cannot in reason be supposed he should under that word You point at any other than the Church of England So then the Church of England is his Lordships You● and being so it is in my opinion a great blemish to his Honours Cause to charge and accriminate a Church with no less than Heresie and not with one onely but many very many and not produce any one Book or one Article where those Heresies are to be found but to accuse a Church of Heresies which are no where to be found and this he hath done very often is a blemish to his Honour as well as to his Cause What the Marques hath omitted in setting down the Doctrine of our Church shall be by me supplied and I will do it with that ingenuous integrity that I will not suppress any one syllable which may advantage her Adversaries in the least And first to the point of Christ's presence Thus The Body of Christ is given taken and eaten in the Supper onely after an heavenly and spiritual manner Observe here 's the Body of Christ so something more than bare bread then it is given taken and eaten if so 't is there sure and verily and indeed as the Catechisme hath it and the Church of Ireland substantially wee 'll grant that too so that it had been much more for his Lordships credit to have forborn the urging of this Real Presence against us Non opus erat ut ea contra nos diceret quae dicimus secum why should he urge that against us which we assert with him Well but is there no difference between us Yes a very great one Rome holds a Transubstantiation a Conversion of the whole substance of the Elements in the Sacrament into the very body and bloud of Christ as the Councel of Trent hath it why did the Marques suppress this Tenet Durst he not own it He is then no Papist for what that Councel hath determined the Papists do and must hold On the other side our Church saith Christs body is there given taken and eaten onely after an heavenly and spiritual manner Now you have heard what both sides hold wee 'll give the Marques his Scriptures leave to speak next Matth. 20. 26. Take eat this is my body Luke 22. 19. This is my body which is given for you I can see Christ's body here indeed but where 's the Conversion the Transubstantiation the Papists hold I cannot see that and though I can see Christ's body there yet there is something else which should be there I cannot see and that is Do this in remembrance of me which we conceive is an evident Explanation of the Mystery this his Lordship thought too hot for him so that if we stand to his carving we shall be sure to have that we have least minde to Now let his Fathers be produced Ignatius saith The Eucharist is the flesh of Christ so say we too and Ignatius tells you for all that it is Bread still and after Consecration too both are indeed most sure as Saint Hillary saith exceeding well Figura est dum Panis Vinum extra videtur veritas autem dum corpus sanguis Christi in veritate interius creditur It is the figure whilest the Bread and Wine are beheld outwardly but the truth it self when the Body and Bloud are inwardly in truth beleeved Justin Martyr saith That after Consecration the Elements become the body and bloud of Christ who doubts of it but speaks not of any Conversion of the substance nay saith expresly in the same place that the Deacons distribute after consecration the bread and wine clearly implying he thought not of any Transubstantiation but that the Elements kept their substance still Cyprian and Ambrose I confess spake the first of a Change the other of a Conversion of the Elements but 't is not of their substance neither but onely of their use Sunt quae erant in aliud commutantur They are still what they were before but are changed in quality Such a Conversion we grant too we hold the Elements after Consecration differ in use and virtue from common Bread and Wine Rhemigius speaks not of Conversion if Christ's body be there sure his flesh is and I never read of any other flesh he had than what he took in the Virgins womb The difference is not whether Christ's body be here but how And if I did not think it time mis-spent I could destroy this carnal Doctrine by the testimony of twenty several Fathers who all understand the Presence to be no other than as a Symbole Type figure representation signe image likeness and memory of Christ's body crucified upon the Cross and as for Transubstantiation they never dreamt of such a word nor thought of such a thing I will onely instance in one and I hope his word may be taken because a Pope Non desinit substantia vel natura Panis Vini The substance of Bread and Wine is not changed or destroyed So Gelasius M. We hold that there is in the Church an infallible Rule for understanding of Scripture besides the Scripture it self this you deny Our Church hath no where delivered her self expresly in this point yet I take it to be the General Doctrine of Protestants that there is no other Rule besides Scripture to understand Scripture that is infallible For if Scripture be an infallible Rule why should we cumber our selves with more than one unless this one were hard to come by or easie to be lost And it seems his Lordship thought Scripture was one infallible Rule when he said there is another besides it and Bellarmine comes in with his Convenit inter nos omnes omnino haereticos In this point we are all generally agreed Heretiques and all that the Word of God

all-sufficiency of Scripture after which the Doctor rejoyns All that your Majesty hath said concerning the scriptures sufficiency is true provided that those Scriptures be duly handled for as the Law is sufficient to determine right and keep all in peace and quietnesse yet the execution of that sufficienciency cannot be performed without Courts and Judges The Doctor holds his own Comparison still Well Doctor we have a Court too Forum conscientiae the Court of every mans conscience and a Judge also of that Court if you demand Who 'T is every mans self and therefore they who controul that Court are by the voice of truth it self {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} condemned of themselves For as Hierome tells us who was no great Friend to Popes or Bishops If there be not admitted in the Church the Authority of one eminent and peerlesse Power above others there will be as many Schismes in the Church as Priests Doctor you are out let me put you in the Questions we speak of are of Heresie not of Schisme that relates to dogmatical points of Faith this to outward Rites Ceremonies are the Garments of Religion not the Body and Cloath are for Ornament yet not for that only they are also to keep the Body warm a Religion naked without Ceremonies will have but little outward warmth but a frozen zeal if I may so say and too many Cloaths are as bad and cumbersome on the other side Fit it is the Church should appoint her self what and how many she will wear for leave it at liberty there will indeed be Schismes as many as Hierome speaks of Wherefore I would fain finde out that which the Scripture bids me hear Audi Ecclesiam c. The Doctor is again at his Hear the Church Matth. 18. and I again must tell him that place is onely applyable to Ecclesiastical discipline But that the Church may the better be heard the Doctor tells us from Saint Paul that she is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth from Ezekiel that God will place his sanctification in the midst of her for ever from Esay that the Lord will never forsake her from our Saviour that the Gates of Hell shall not prevail against her and that he will be always with her unto the end of the world All this we grant and yet deny all that the Doctor would from these Texts infer for first it is evident not any one of all these is to be understood or hath any reference to a Representative Church or General Councel but to the Universal Catholique Church Secondly if a General Councel were intended by them yet there is not any grant of an infallible spirit to direct that Councel and without the spirit of infallibility men will be and no more than need very cautelous of yielding plenary obedience to her Decrees Doct. For although the Psalmist tells us that the word of the Lord is clear enlightening the eyes yet the same Prophet said to God enlighten mine eyes that I may see the marvels of thy Law c. The Doctor labours here to prove the obscurity of the Scriptures and that they are so in some places I never heard and man yet deny but that they are so in all the Doct. himself dares not cannot deny The truth is as Augustine said Excellently The holy Ghost hath so modified and tempered the Scriptures that there are clear places to satisfie the hunger and darker to procure the appetite of the Soul and if {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} whatsoever is necessary for us to believe is there clear and manifest we are well enough But the Doct. saith no man hath ever yet defin'd what are necessary and what not what points are fundamental and what not Hath no man defin'd what is necessary what is fundamental Yes Doctor Learned Hooker tells you it is the Doctrine which the Prophets and Apostles professe the late Reverend Arch-Bishop tells you the Articles of the Creed which is but the summary of that Doctrine are such and so is the belief of the Scriptures to be the word of God and infallible Necessary to salvation is one thing and necessary to knowledge as an improvement of our Faith is another thing True Doctor there are different things but quid refert what matter is it what is necessary to that knowledge which is not necessary to salvation T is a learned ignorance not to know that which our great Master will not teach us T is fides tua said Tertullian thy Faith not the curiosity of being skilfull in the Scriptures hath saved thee cedat curiositas Fidei cedat gloria saluti Let curiosity give place to Faith vanity and ostentation to Salvation For the first if a man keeps the Commandments and believes all the Articles of the Creed he may be saved though he never read a word of Scripture May he be saved Doctor I hope it is more then possible then may be he shall undoubtedly be saved and so he shall if he believes all the Scripture though he never read a word of it But why Doctor do you distinguish between the Articles of the Creed and the Scriptures are not those Articles the word of God as well as the Scripture I take it they are First as framed by the Apostles themselves men Divinely inspired as all the Fathers agree Secondly because they containe the pith and marrow of the Scriptures all the Doctrine necessary to salvation being there abbreviated He who means to walk by the rules of Gods word must lay hold upon the means that God hath ordained whereby he may attain to the true understanding of them for as St. Paul saith God hath placed in the Church Apostles Prophets Evangelists Pastors and Doctors to the end we should be no more little children blown about with every wind of Doctrine Were I disposed to quarrel I could tell you Doctor Bayly or Doctor Stapleton chuse you which that your Text is out of date and that the Prophets and Evangelists there mentioned were extraordinary and proper onely to those times and the Presbyterian party will tell you as much of the Apostles so that there will be onely left Pastors and Doctors which with St. Augustine I conceive to be both one of perpetual use in the Church for the work of the Ministery part of which work I freely grant is the interpretation of the Scriptures Again I might expostulate as the Apostle doth 1. Cor. 12. 30. do all interpret have all Pastors that gift And admit they have have they all that assistance of the Holy Ghost in an infallible guidance which those Pastors of the Apostolical times had Nay is that infallible assistance now afforded to any one of all the Pastors in the world If yea let us know the man so qualified if not then what remedy but we may be still blown about with every puff of Doctrine and what will then become of your external Judge