was more talk about the visibility of the Church and D. T. said to this purpose The History of this matter is beyond both the Purse and the Capacity of the People A great many Pounds and Books are required A Priest or Candidate said 'T is in less room and was pulling out I think a little Book It sufficeth the People that they have heard Christ's Promise That there shall be a Society of men professing Christianity to the end of the World That they believe Christ will make good his word and that they find among us such Doctrine and Rules of Life as are in the Bible That the Greeks have always had Churches that among the Latins we have Catalogues of Witnesses against Romish Errors That a True Church may though not as such have many Corruptions And that the present Corruptions in the Roman Church were not formerly made Articles of Faith. That we had the True Faith before any Mission came from Rome That S. Gregories Faith was not that which Rome now teaches That here the Synods of the Second of Nice and Trent could not prevail That a Doctrine contrary to Transubstantiation had been taught in the Saxon Church and that he would prove such things as these out of their own Writers Mr. M. ask'd what Writers D. T. answer'd Beda and such Historians as Hoveden c. D. T. said moreover to Mr. P. asking after a distinct Church before Luther That he would shew him Christians in Bohemia making the Bible their Rule and protesting against the Errors of Rome And ask'd him If he should shew him out of Aeneas Sylvius Mr. P. did not desire it nor seem to know what Book that was Mr. M. had some while before ask'd D. T. who had said That we find the Bible which we now have quoted by the Ancient Fathers How he came to know they were Fathers To which Question he thought an Answer in that Place a condesension to an impertinence Hereabouts I think Mr. P. introduced a short Discourse about Transubstantiation and when D. T. had said as before that that manner of the Breads becoming Christ's Body was invented by Paschasius Radbertus M. P. in warm manner said What talk you of Paschasius Radbertus It was decreed in the Great General Council of Lateran where there were all the Patriarchs D. T. perceiving him to mistake so much in History and likewise err in time nigh Four hundred years for Paschasius flourished according to Bellarmin in the year 821. and that Lateran Council was held Ann. 1215. He turn'd to Mr. M. and said Why do you bring a man who has not common skill in History And then turning to Mr. P. he ask'd him Under what Pope that Council was held And his Memory did not serve him to tell Then Mr. D. A. C. addressing himself to him having a Breviary in his Hand in which the Trinity was pictur'd said Sir I can inform you under what Pope that Council was held 't was held under Innocent the Third Mr. P. being moved either by his Answer or his Book or Picture or all called him Buffoon D. T. then told Mr. P. he had transgressed against part of the Office of that day of St. Michael in which these words of St. Jude were read Michael the Arch-angel disputing with the Devil about the Body of Moses would not bring against him a railing Accusation but said The Lord rebuke thee And further D. T. ask'd him If all the Patriarchs were there in person or not Mr. P. replied By their Legats D. T. ask'd him Whether he had seen Father Walsh's late Book which contradicted what he said Mr. P. answered that Father Walsh was not his Pope Some of the words of Father Walsh the Franciscan are these There were not above 414 Bishops in the whole and none of all other than a Member of the Latin Church those very Two Patriarchs he means those of Hierusalem and Constantinople being themselves Latins and consequently not one of the Greek Church or of any other part or Church of the World among them By this time Mr. P. had produced a Breviary a written Collection of Quotations and Two large sheets of Quotations printed and would go to the Fathers D. T. desired first to speak to his Citation Hear the Church but still being denied he was contented to hear what he would alledge out of the Fathers with this Caution That he would not take them either for his infallible Judges or Rule but that seeing he had them on the side of his Church he would not part with them He began with his Breviary and read out of it part of that which is in the Margent construing it into English And the Sum of it was That before Consecration it was Bread but after it the Flesh of Christ And that Christ whose Word made things begin to be which were not before could much more bring it to pass that they should be what they were and yet changed into another thing which shews the opinion of the Author to have been that it was Bread and Christ's Body too if from this place we may find out his mind And then he nam'd S. Cyril's Catechism and then Justin Martyr and was going on to read many more Citations out of the printed Sheets entituled Speculum Ecclesiasticum but call'd it seems by their Hawkers The Soldiers Paper of which Title D. T. being ignorant his Man could not till Wednesday procure him a Copy of them D. T. Propos'd the fixing upon something after so long and noisie a rambling and call'd for Pen Ink and Paper and said he would begin with S. Ambrose and then go on to S. Cyril and J. Martyr in the order of Mr. P. and answering those Quotations there at that time he would afterwards as they agreed go on to the rest Mr. P. would go on and read further and did it so often out of those two Sheets repeating the names Justin Martyr Irenaeus c. that D. T. provoked with what he thought an unreasonable digression call'd the Papers his Ballads and said he might give them for Kites to his Boys which words were too light and he repents him of using them At last D. T. took the Pen and wrote down an Assertion to this effect That that was a spurious and late Book and none of S. Ambrose 's and that he would show it to be such Then he desir'd Mr. P. to underwrite that D. T. could not do what he there undertook M. P. refus'd and taking a Pen began to write his name to his Quotations in the printed Sheets but did not write as I think all his name there After which Mr. M. took Pen and D. T. delivering him the Paper he had sign'd in order to a regular proceeding he began to write the first words of these Questions Whether God Almighty hath left us any Guide or Guides to direct us in the Interpretation of Scripture in things necessary to Salvation Whether he hath
all that belonged to the Heathenish Idolatry he tells That on the Solemnities of their Idols they had Flesh and Bread which by the Invocation of the Devils were defil'd as the Bread and Wine of the Eucharist before the Holy Invocation of the blessed Trinity was bare Bread and Wine but the Invocation being made the Bread becomes the Body of Christ. In like manner says he those Victuals of the Pomp of Satan which of their own nature are common or bare Victuals by the Invocation of the Devils become prophane From this illustration which he borrowed from Justin Martyr his second Apology it appears that he thought the Consecration of the Eucharist was of a like sort or manner with the prophanation of the Idolatrous Feasts so that as the substance of the one remained still unchanged so also according to him must the substance of the other remain Or if this will not suffice them let us see to what else he compares this change of Elements by the Consecration In his Third Mystag Catech. treating of the consecrated Oil he says As the Bread of the Eucharist after the Invocation of the Holy Ghost is no more common Bread but the Body of Christ so this Holy Oyntment is no more bare Oyntment nor as some say common but it is a gift of Christ and the presence of the Holy Ghost and becomes energetical of his Divinity And from these places let it be gathered what can be drawn from S. Cyril's Testimony And thus we have performed likewise what we promised and have given a clear account of S. Cyril's meaning from himself from whose own words and from these things which he compares with the Sanctification of the Elements in the Eucharist it appears he could not think of Transubstantiation otherwise he had neither compared it with the Idol-Feasts nor the consecrated Oyl in neither of which there can be supposed any Transubstantiation I will at present add only three or four Notes about this place of St. Cyril First that the Romish Translator Grodecius has as should seem to help this matter in his way render'd the words 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 by sub specie panis sub specie vini under the shew of Bread and under the shew of Wine instead of in the Type or Figure of Bread and in the Type or Figure of Wine Secondly that just before the words cited in favour of Transubstantiation he uses these But in the new not Law as the Translator has it but Covenant the heavenly Bread and the Cup of Salvation sanctifie Soul and Body as the Bread agrees to the Body so the Word to the Soul. It should hence seem that the Body of Christ meant by St. Cyril was the Word and that both Bread and the Word were received by the Communicant Thirdly that St. Cyril's Third Catechise of the Illuminate or baptized opens the Sense of the Fourth Mystagogical Catechise for there he speaks in a very high strain of Consecrated Water and advises the Persons to be baptiz'd to come not as to common Water but as to the spiritual Grace given together with the Water Fourthly It is much to be doubted whether this be the Book of St. Cyril of Jerusalem for besides that Gesner saies he saw that Book in the Ausburg Library under the Name of John of Constantinople the Author forbids his Hearers to be Frequenters of Spectacles in Theaters or of Horse-races in Hippodromes for this there was no occasion at Jerusalem since it had become Christian there being especially in his time no such Sports and Places there that I have ever read of So in three Quotations the two first are taken out of suspected Authors yet I will allow the Catechisms to be ancient and to be ascrib'd to St. Cyril by Sophronius and St. Hierom yet they note that he compos'd them in his youth 3. Touching the Quotation out of Justin Martyr it was this in English and read out of the abovesaid Sheets called Speculum Ecclesiasticum by Mr. P. S. Justin. c. I suppose in Charity that Antonio for Antonino is the mistake of the Printer but'tis a mistake of some body else when 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is translated As the Word of God Jesus Christ our Redeemer being made man c. instead of by the Word of God or the Divine Spirit Jesus Christ being made flesh c. But to pass to something more material I observe first That the foregoing words of Justin which are very considerable are omitted viz. That at the end of the Eucharist the Ministers distribute to every one present that he may partake of the consecrated Bread and Wine and Water c. Justin calls it Bread after Consecration as St. Paul did before him I observe secondly that Justin interprets himself whilst he saies It is not Common-Bread as if he had said It is Bread in its Nature but being consecrated and made the Figure and Pledge of Christ's Body it deserves a higher Name and indeed this is a Key to the Expressions of most of the Fathers and particularly to St. Cyril as has been already shown and it is plain to those who read the Fathers with Attention that they use such Language in relation to the Water in Baptism as they do in reference to the Bread and Wine in the Eucharist without teaching a Substantial change so Greg. Nyssen despise not the Divine Washing nor make light of it as Commmon I note thirdly that Justin affirms of the consecrated Bread and Wine that they nourish the Body and that therefore he is no Teacher of Transubstantiation which removes the Substances which nourish the Body And now how far is it from the true Art of Thinking and the sincere love of Truth to draw a Proof for a pretended Article of Faith from the high and hyperbolical Phrases of the Ancients by the same reason if the World should last 14 or 1500 years men might conclude that the Church of England taught the Doctrine of the Corporal Presence as well as the Church of Rome she having used these words in the Office of the Communion at the Consecration of the Elements Grant that we receiving these thy Creatures of Bread and Wine according to thy Son our Saviour Jesus Christs Holy Institution in remembrance of his Death and Passion may be Partakers of his most blessed Body and Blood. An Account of Doctor Tenison 's and Doctor Celgat 's going to the Savoy to Mr. Pulton UPon October the 3d. 87. Dr. Tenison and Dr. Claget went to the Savoy about Five at Night After having found Mr. Pulton the Jesuit in his Lodgings there Dr. Tenison desired him to call to them any one of his Friends that he might hear the Discourse which he was about to offer After being twice or thrice pressed to it by Dr. Tenison he call'd one in the Habit of a Jesuit a Grave and Civil Person his Name was not asked Then Dr. Tenison apply'd himself to Mr.
his first onset was very vigorous D. T. answered at first to this purpose That Mr. P. might send for that Book which he owned to be his Bible and out of that he would dispute with him or if that were too great a trouble he would borrow an English Bible in the house which was afterwards fetch'd and discourse out of that and endeavour to vindicate the Translation where it should be by Mr. P. excepted against This Method Mr. P. would not allow but repeated his discourse about our not having a Bible and our not being able if we had one to prove we had one and ask'd again about the Rule of our Faith. D. T. before he answered to this applied himself to Mr. M. who seem'd to be the calmer person and of a temper inclining to Piety and put him in mind that such discourses as these and some others lately used by the Romanists about the Trinity and Transubstantiation would rather make the people Atheists or Unbelievers than Converts and that the indifferent were ready to say Content We cannot believe Transubstantiation and we will have no Trinity we cannot have the Bible unless we take it upon Roman Authority and none we will have Mr. M. said That would not be the consequence but gave no reason why he said so Then D. T. turned to Mr. P. and told him that he began at a point of which the Boy had not said a tittle to him in the Closet or to his Master the first and chief thing said by him being that about Luther's Works and Sacraments and his Colloquy with the Devil Mr. P. at first denied that he had shown such a Book to the Boy and the Boy began at first to shuffle about the Story but afterwards own'd it his Master attesting it and upbraiding him with lying in that and other things Mr. P. then salv'd the matter by saying he did not show him the Book in Publick D. T. then replied Is not a thing shown because it is not shown in a Market this is the fruit of the ill art of Equivocation Mr. P. proceeded to talk about Luther and the Devil and his leaving Mass at the Devils instance this discourse of Mr. P's had very good effect upon the other servants in the house as they confessed to their Mistress they now perceiving that to be the Jesuits talk which the Boy had fathered upon the Doctor To Mr. P's discourse about Luther D. T. answered on this manner That our Church depended not upon Luther but Christ That Luther some grains of allowance being given to him as we ought to every man was an excellent instrument of God's That he ought to have read if he had not done so the Book lately published at Oxford Entituled The Spirit of Martin Luther That if Luther had said any where there were Three Sacraments he had said no more than Paschasius Radbertus who was the Inventer of Transubstantâ—ation That admitting the Story Luther after the Monkish way had put his Spiritual Conflict into the form of a Colloquy and that he might well suspect a device in the Devil when he disswaded him from the Mass for the Devil might think the Piety of Luther would be apt to move him for that reason to go the rather to Mass because the Devil had forbidden him D. T. added that one of the first disswasives from the Mass which made impression upon Luther was this He had been at Rome and said Mass there and heard it said and he took notice of the profaneness of the Mass-Priests and he over-heard the very Courtizans jeeringly saying that some who Consecrated had used these Words Bread thou art Bread thou shalt be Wine thou art Wine thou shalt be Mr. P. asked D. T. where he had this Story D. T. answered where he might have it in Luthers Life D. T. would have gone on and given Mr. P. a Story out of their second Synod of Nice for his story about Luther's Colloquy with the Devil but Mr. P. would not accept of an old Tale for a new one and tho D. T. began his Story at the request of the people five or six times Mr. P. would not suffer him to proceed out-noising him in such manner that D. T. ask'd him if he had the Art of curing the deaf The Story which was afterwards told to the people in the back room was this Abbot Theodore reported before the Fathers of that Council which decreed the Worship of Images how the Devil appeared to an Old Man who asked him why he had troubled him so long with temptations to uncleanness the Devil swore him to secresie and then said Adore this Image no more I will give you no further trouble the Image was that of the Blessed Virgin with the Holy Jesus in her Arms The old man revealed this to Abbot Theodore who said he should not have sworn to the Devil yet notwithstanding 't was better for him not to dismiss his Courtezan than to forbear to worship Christ and his Mother in an Image The Abbot continued and comforted the old man and sent him away the Devil appeared again and upbraided him with perjury the old man answered What I have sworn I have sworn c. The Good Fathers excused the breach of his Oath and went on to applaud the practice of Image-worship Mr. P. not suffering D. T. scarce so much as to begin this story joined with Mr. Meredith in asking what was the Rule of Fairh and where we had our Bible And as to the latter Mr. P. ask'd with great quickness who gave us the Copies how where when and the like Insomuch that D. T. told him he was doing the office of a Catechist rather than a Disputer However D. T. answered thus First The Rule of Faith is the Holy Bible the sum of it in necessary Doctrines is the Apostolical Creed Mr. P. said we had other Negative Articles No Purgatory c. D. T. replied they were Guards of our Creed but not properly Articles and that as Protestations against Them they were not very Ancient because their Errors were not all from the beginning and that we could not pull up the weeds before they were grown up Secondly That if they had any good proof of the Bible we had it too and that the first external inducement for the receiving of the Bible as written by such and such persons and as such a Book was not so much the Authority as the Testimony of the Universal Church of all Ages all agreeing in it and amongst others the Roman excepting the Apochryphal Books of later time raised by them into a level with the primary Canon whilst we have the same Canon the Ancient Church owned in the Council of Laodicea D. T. added That the Protestants took in the Testimony of Heathens as of Julian the Apostate who against himself owned three of the Evangelists and the Jews who had once the Oracles of God committed to them and from whom the
For Councils they were not to give a Rule of Faith but to make Peace in the Church by proceeding according to the Rule the Scripture If it had been otherwise the Christian World in which from the Beginning were many Divisions and Heresies had been long without a sufficient Guide or Rule seeing there was no General Council till 325 years after Christ. They alledged Scriptures and if they had not done so Men would not have stood to heir meer Authority or to any other Tradition than the Creed and not to that but by universal Consent as found in the Holy Bible 3. The third Motive is their Unity and the dividing and subdividing of the Reformed without end as having no Guide Yet the Protestants have the surest Rule and due Ministerial Helps and they have published a Harmony of Confessions of Faith. And in the Roman Church the Jansenists have accused the Jesuits of a new Heresy of the Pope's being infallible in Matters of Fact and about many other things they are at variance The Anti-blacloists accuse the Blacloists of Heresy about their Method of Oral Tradition The Assembly of the Clergy of Hungary have lately condemned the Theses of the Assembly of the Clergy of France as dangerous to the Souls of Men and there are now in Spain and Italy great numbers of the Disciples of Molinos who are against the use of Images in praying and the Invocation of Saints and other things for which the rest of the Church of Rome do so very much contend and it is not long since the Assembly of the French Clergy approved of a Book of Mr. Gerbais which this best of modern Popes condemned forbidding the reading of it upon Pain of Excommunication and of not being absolv'd by any but this Pope or some other Pope for the time being unless in the Article of Death Certainly what they differed about must be something of Moment otherwise it would not have drawn after it so heavy a Sentence And now we see how Father Walsh and Father Pulton differ here about a General Council which the said Father P. in his late Catechisings has own'd as his Rule of Faith. 4. The fourth Motive is the Zeal of making Conversions abroad The Question is Whether they are Conversions to the true Christianity of which we have Instances in the English Protestant Colonies For the Scribes and Pharisees compass'd Sea and Land to make Proselytes but it would have been much better for Religion if they had staid at home and mended their own Morals Balzac somewhere observes that most of the Conversions are made in warm Countries where there is Gold and other valuable Things and that the like Zeal does not move them towards cold and barren Nova Zembla And the manner of the Conversions made by the Spaniards in America is too Tragical to be related 5. The fifth Motive is Miracles The Church has no need of them for the confirming the Apostles Creed If the Creed of Pope Pius wants them lying Wonders agree well enough to a Sum of false Articles of Faith. But seeing Miracles are for them that believe not and not for them who believe why do they not shew a Sign among us who are not too hasty of Assent to Doctrines properly Roman The Letter says none pretend to Miracles but the Romans yet even the Quakers and some very nigh to them pretend both to Miracles and Infallibility 6. The sixth Motive is That Men of Quality go out of the World into Holy Orders It is in the Ecclesiastical State the readiest way to Preferment but I do not say that none have better Intentions 7. The seventh is that they built our Churches A good Argument for the Heathens who built the Pantheon or the Temple for the Worship of all strange Gods which now at Rome they use as the Church of All their Saints A good Argument for the Turks who in the Morea built many of the Mosques which are now by the Romanists used as Churches 8. The eighth is the Leachery of King Henry the 8th He liv'd and died a Papist and many Popes have out-gone him in Vice and more in Atheism However he was a great Prince and Luther is blam'd for using Language towards him which was not so respectful but the Priests can put into the Mouth of a Boy words very unseemly 9. The ninth is the Violence of Queen Elizabeth c. But who are the violent they that provoke or they they that punish when justly provok'd Till the Pope sent his Bull against her the Papists liv'd in great Quiet and Ease and came to our Service Gabiutius confesseth that Pope Pius did by all means possible disturb her Reign and he himself would not let her die in Peace for he makes her Death after a Reign of four and forty years to be a Judgement upon her and says as his sort of Charity mov'd him that she exchanged a wicked Life for everlasting Death After all this Weakness of Argument to pretend to Inspiration and the Holy Ghost is certainly to grieve that blessed Spirit of Truth After their having taught the Boy to say this of the Spirit of God 't is a small thing for them to lessen Dr. T. and to manage him in writing that Dr. T 's four hours-Discourse had more confirm'd him He could scarce be harder than he was before But these Virtuosi have found out an Art of confirming a Nether Milstone May God give J. S. and them the Grace of Sincerity If they had had a sufficient Measure of it they would not have taught him to say that the Roman Faith such as is now their Faith had been here for a thousand years For Gregory the Great sent not the same Canon of Scripture they now go by For he would not allow the Book of Maccabees to be Canonical and what Bible did he send for he confesses he understood no Greek Further it appears from the very Recantation of John Wickliff for the saving of his Life that there was then in England no such Doctrine as Transubstantiation publickly impos'd as an Article of Faith. That which comes at the close is still as false viz. that all the Relations of the selling of Pardons are Stories tho the Romish Historians agree in this with the Protestant that the gross Practice of the Popes selling Pardons by Tezelius was the occasion of Luther's leaving the Church of Rome A Brief Account of Mr. Pulton's second Narrative with cursory Notes upon it AFter Dr. T. had sent Mr. P. the first Copy of his Account Mr. P. sent him his second Account or his Narrative enlarged On this Dr. T. makes these Cursory Notes 1. He will have the Conference to be for the sake of J. S. tho Dr. T. had declared otherwise and cautioned against the old Trick of making a Conversion of one chang'd already to turn upon a verbal Conference And to the End that the Opinion of Dr. Horneck touching J. S. as