Selected quad for the lemma: doctrine_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
doctrine_n	article_n	church_n	creed_n	2,425	5	10.1630	5	false

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A28848	A relation of the famous conference held about religion at Paris between M. Bossuet, Bishop of London, late tutor to the Dauphin, and Monsieur Claude, minister of the reformed church at Charenton at the Countess of Royes house in the presence of several persons of the first quality at the request of Mademoiselle de Duras, daughter to the famous Marshal de Turenne, she being then upon changing her religion / translated from the French copy, as it was lately published by Monsieur Claude.; Conference avec M. Claude minstre de charenton, sur la matier̀e de l'eǵlise. English	Bossuet, Jacques Bénigne, 1627-1704.; Claude, Jean, 1619-1687.	1684 (1684)	Wing B3790; ESTC R15735	27,560	22

Scripture and I ask you by what principle that Child beleives the Scripture to be Divine that the Book of Canticles for Example where there 's not a Word spoke of God is divine Either that child that 's a Christian who has received the Holy Spirit and the Faith infused by Baptism and is a member of the Church doubts of the Divinity of the Scripture or does not doubt of it if not he beleives it then Divine by the Authority of the Catholick Church which is the first Authority under which he lives if he doubts of it a Christian may then doubt of the truth of the Scripture M. Claude made answer that he might have something to say upon M. de Condoms supposing that every child baptized received the Holy Spirit but that he would not insist upon what is spoken by the by nor deviate from the principal subject in question wherefore he 'd be contented with making some reflections upon what M. de Condom had just urg'd The first said he shall be that probably the first knowledge which the Holy Spirit gives to the Child of the Catholick Church is by his Creed wherein he says Credo Sanctam Ecclesiam Catholicam Never theless in the Creed this Article is posteriour to the Articles of Doctrine since it begins with God the Father Almighty and continues with Jesus Christ and with the Holy Ghost after which comes the Catholick Church Now it appears clearly from thence that Faith of the Doctrine does not depend on the Authority of the Church for otherwise the symbole must have been compos'd after an other manner and say at first I beleive the Catholick Church and by the Catholick Church I beleive in God the Father c. My second Reflection said he is that you cannot suppose as you do that first authority under which the Child begins to live is that of the Catholick Church for certain it is that the first Authority under which a Child lives is that of his Father or that of his Mother or if you will that of his nurse and how that of the Church can only come afterwards and in some sort by dependance on th● other Now from thence it follows that this first Authority which is the Paterna may as well conduct the Child to the Scripture as to the Church In the third place said he there is nothing more easy then to retort your argument against your self Either the Child Baptized doubts of the Authority of the Church or does not doubt of it if he does not doubt of it he beleives it then by the authority of the Scripture for he cannot by any other way beleive it of Divine Faith and by consequence it is not the Church which makes us beleive Scripture but it is the Scripture which makes beleive the Church which is that we aim at If he doubts of it see here then a Christian who has received the Holy Spirit and Faith infused by Baptisme and who is a member of the Church who can doubt of the first authority on which depends the rest of the Faith That the Child cannot beleive of Divine Faith the Authority of the Church but by that of the Scripture I prove it for if it is not by the Scripture that he beleives the Church and its authority it is then either by way of inspiration and enthusiasm or by the Authority of his Father of his Mother or of his nurse or by argument drawn out of the very Nature of the Church It cannot be out of enthusiasme for the Holy Spirit does not act in that manner Neither can it be by the Authority of the Father or the Mother or Nurse for you see this would be to establish those sorts of authorities for the first principle of Faith neither can it be by proof and arguments drawn out of the very nature of the Church for as in your argument you suppose the Child has not yet read the Scripture I suppose also in mine that he has not yet Meditated upon the Nature of the Catholick Church and knows only its name It then remains that the Child believes the Catholick Church by Scripture which is what you do not allow off or does not beleive it at all and that he doubts it which is the same inconvenience you would have thrown me in in regard of the Scripture Here a body may say with truth that M. de Condoms Wit was not in its usual state and how that freedom which is natural to it was sensibly diminish'd He undertook to maintain that the first Authority under which a Child lived in respect of Religion was that of the Catholick Church and not that of the Father or Mother M. Claude replyed that there was no denying a thing so clear as that that the first Authority in respect of Religion is that of the Father or Mother who took the first care of the Education of the Child or that it was from them that the Child learnt the first time that there was a Catholick Church to which he ought to range himself or that there was a Scripture which was Divine and to which he ought to submit himself Now the point being to know by what means the child might believe the Authority of the Catholick Church he had only to chuse either the way of Enthusiasm or that of the Paternal Authority or that of the Scripture which might instruct him M. de Condom replyed the faith of the child in the Authority of the Church was divine because 't was the Holy Spirit that formed it in him M. Claude reparty'd that the thing in debate was not the cause efficient which produced that Faith in the child but the argument by which it was produced that if M. de Condom understood that the Holy Ghost produced it in the child without proof and without argument it would be a kind of Enthusiasm and yet the Holy Ghost did not act in that manner M. de Condom said that in effect there were Motives of credibility to which M. Claude replyed that if he gave the child time to examine the Motives of credibility by the Authority of the Church and to perceive the force of 'em he also would give the same child the time to examine the Motives of credibility for the Authority of the Scripture and to perceive the force of them and this being so he must renounce his argument which suppos'd the child as not yet having read the Scripture But is it not true said M. de Condom that in this state either the child doubts or does not doubt of the Divinity of the Scriptures But said M. Claude is it not true that in that state either the child doubts or does not doubt of the authority of the Church for if you suppose the child before his having read the Scripture I suppose him also before his having read the Motives of credibility for the authority of the Church You are obliged to answer to my argument and the same

A RELATION OF THE Famous Conference HELD ABOUT RELIGION AT PARIS BETWEEN M. Bossuet Bishop of Condom late Tutor to the Dauphin AND Monsieur Claude Minister of the Reformed Church at Charenton AT The Countess of Royes house in the Presence of several Persons of the first Quality at the Request of Mademoiselle de Duras Daughter to the Famous Marshal de Turenne she being then upon Changing her Religion Translated from the French Copy as it was lately Published by Monsieur Claude LONDON Printed by H. C. for Thomas Malthus at the Sun in the Poultrey 1684. A TRUE AND EXACT ACCOUNT OF THE FAMOUS CONFERENCE BETWEEN THE Bishop of Condom AND Monsieur CLAUDE An Account of what passed in the Conversation which the Bishop of Condom the Dauphins Tutor had with Monsieur Claude at the Countess of Royses house in the presence of Mademoiselle Marchalle de Lorge the Countess de Roys Mademoiselle de Duras the Marquiss de Miremont Mademoiselle de Roucy and Monsieur Cotton SOme dayes before this Conversation Mademoiselle de Duras went to see Monsieur Claude whom she told she had some Scruples about Religion and took out of her pocket a Paper which had been given her containing some passages of S. Augustin touching the Eucharist to which M. Claude made answer and then fell to showing her by other passages that the Doctrine of that Father upon this Subject was the same with what was taught at Charenton and herewith she seemed satisfied On the morrow Monsieur Claude chancing to see her at the Countess of Royses house after a pretty long Discourse she told him she could wish he would have in her presence a Conference with some Roman Catholick Doctor or other M. Claude made answer That this was in no wise practised that such Conferences might have Dangerous consequences and that she knew very well that the State of those of the Reformed Religion in France and in particular at Paris obliged 'em to use many measures of Prudence and of Pre-caution But said she What course would you take if by Chance you met with any of those Gentlemen and that you were urged upon Points of Religion sure you 'd not abandon your Cause In such a case said M. Claude I would avoid entring into Dispute as much as possible I could but being forced to it I would give a Reason of my Faith and in those unforeseen Occasions people are not us'd to flinch and run away But why added he d' ye ask me this Question That 's not the matter in Dispute Two daies afterwards th● Countess of Roy● told M. Claude how endeavours were us'd to ●ave him meet as if i● wer● by Chance with M. de Condom and how she had thought it fitting to give ●im ●otice of that Design If I we●● to meet said he with any one I should rather choose it should be with M. de Condom than any other Because he is a Wise Honourable and Understanding Man and for whom I have a great Esteem and Consideration but being as I am a Publique Person methinks this ●usiness does deserve to be well ●ho●ght on and weighed Sho●●ly after he gave an account of this business to two of his Frie●ds an● the● all thr●e we●t to visit a Person of Quality of an extraordinary Merit and consummated Prudence with whom it was concluded that this Rencounter with M. de Condom was absolutely to be avoided The Reasons were that People already knew Mademoiselle de Duras was wholly disposed to Change her Religion that according to all appearances she only demanded a Conference to do it with the more Sol●mnity and to make use of it as a Pretext and that what success soever it might have 't would not hinder her from Changing or from saying she had not been satisfyed and that the Gazette also would not fail to make it an Article The Person of Quality who was consulted took upon him to visit the Countess of Roye and make her relish these Reasons And she relish'd 'em indeed and eas'ly comprehended their Strength But notwithstanding all she could do i● lay not ●n her power to disswade Mademoiselle de Duras from her first intention This Lady compla●ned highly of being abandoned saying this was e'en what she had often been reproach'd with that the Ministers dare not appear before the Catholick Doctors To which she added Tears to touch the Countess her Sister by all manner of means proceeding even to protest that if People did but know what Good this would do her they would certainly have this Charity for her This obliged the Countess of Roye to endeavour the bringing about the Interview of M. de Condom with M. Claude and she did it to that purpose that M Claude found himself as it were forced to grant it her that so he might not be exposed to the insult of those of the contrary Religion She assured how M. de Condom had told her that he wished this Interview might be by form of Rencounter that it might not be published in the world and that there might be no affecting to speak of it on either side Tuesday the first of March about two a Clock in the afternoon M. Claude went alone to the Countess of Royes houses whither came presently after Madame la Mareschalle de Lorge Mademoiselle de Duras M. le Marquis de Miremont and M. Cotton About a quarter of an hour after M. de Condom came alone The first Civilities being over and all the Company seated M. de Condom adressing his speech to M. Claude told him That he had been desirous of seeing him to propose to him some things of the practice of those of his Religion which he thought entirely contrary to their Principles That those things consisted first of all in an Article of their Discipline which orders That in case there arises any Contention touching the Doctrine the Question shall be decided in the Consistory by the Word of God and that in case they do not acquiesce it shall be removed to the Provincial Synod and from thence to the National Synod where the entire and final Resolution shall be made by the Word of God and to which those who shall refuse to acquiesce shall be Excommunicated That in the second place he produces a Formulary of Letter-Missive to the National Synods drawn up in the Synod of Vitre for to be thence forward followed in the Provinces by which People promise to Submit themselves to all that shall be resolved on in that Holy Assembly to be obedient thereunto and to execute it from point to point being persuaded says the Formulary That God will provide therein and conduct you by his Holy Spirit in all Truth and Equity by the Rule of his Word That besides this he produced an Act of the National Synod of Charenton held in 1644. wherein is condemned the Opinion of the Independants who will not allow that particular Churches depend on Colloquies and Synods but that every one may govern

rest things were already in such a point between M. Claude and him that the truth must quickly appear on the one side or the other That the Principle which M. Claude maintained was a Principle of Insupportable pride and presumption For is it not the highest arrogance for meer particulars to imagine they have more sense for the understanding of the Scriptures than a Whole Ecclesiastical Assembly than a whole Council Which was nevertheless what did necessarily follow from his Opinion which gave particulars the right and freedom of examining what the Councils have decided that there was a great deal more Christian Justice and Humility in submitting ones self absolutely to the judgment of the Church pay them absolute obedience than to pretend to reform its Decisions M. Claude's Turn being to speak said how 't was true that their Discipline did mention that after the last and final resolution which should be made by the Word of God in the assembly of a National Synod those who should refuse to acquiesce should be excommunicated but that the Discipline did in no wise mean that they were to acquiesce to the authority of the Assembly precisely but as he had already observed it to the authority of the Word of God according to which the Assembly was to square the decision which still supposes an examination that thus the excommunication was just upon this supposition that the Word of God had been followed and not otherwise That indeed the excommunications of Councils were neither just nor efficacious but when their decisions were grounded upon this Word and if they were not their excommunications where unjust fell again with full right upon the head of those who had utter'd them according to the Maxime of St. Paul If we ourselves or an Angel from Heaven should preach to you besides what we have preached to you let him be accursed That if the Church of Rome pretended only that they would not dispute with her because any one would still have a right an obligation to examine if the Decisions are conformable or not to the Word of God and by consequence whether the excommunications are just or unjust That in this Spirit it was that the Synod of Dordrecht had condemned not the persons against whom they did not pronounce any Anathema but the errors by shewing them contrary to the express Texts of Scripture That for his own part he held that excommunication very legitimate but 't was because he saw it grounded upon the Scripture and not upon the authority of the Assembly That the Independants had in truth held an extraordinary Assembly in 1653. to draw up their Confession of Faith but this did not hinder but that commonly they rejected the use of Colloquies and Synods and for that reason was it the Synod of Charenton had condemned them and not for their not having rendred to Assemblies a blind and absolute obedience in matter of Faith as appears by the very Act. As to the Synod of Sainte Foy I know not said my Lord why you will needs have it there was a design to change the Confession of the Faith in what it has essential for this is in no wise in the power of National Synods and if that of Sainte Foy had undertaken it it had been disown'd by all the Protestants of the Kingdom I own they might put Illustrations and Explications in an Act but you must also own to me that they could do it in the confession and when a thing may be done by several ways People are at liberty to chuse that which seems the most proper There M. de Condom interrupting M. Claude said how it was certain this Synod was contriving how to couch the Article of the Lords Supper in ambiguous terms and that it was the design of the Mediators that there was mention made of deciding every point of doctrine which did manifestly regard the reality which the Lutherans held M. Claude made answer that to impute to the Synod a design of agreeing upon ambiguous terms was one of the conjectures of M. de Condom whereof he had not any proof and for his part he conjectur'd otherwise that he did not doubt but the design of the Synod was to do what was possible to bring the Lutherans to a full knowledge of the truth and this was that which signified that full power of deciding with them every point of Doctrine namely by the Word of God Then falling again to the thread of his discourse he made answer to that M. de Condom had said that it was an insupportable pride for meer particulars to believe they have more sense for the understanding of the Scripture than a whole Ecclesiastical Assembly whereupon he said that indeed meer particulars ought not to presume so much of themselves as to believe they have more sense for the understanding of the Scriptures than a whole Assembly that on the contrary People ought to presume well of an Assembly and have docility for it But that this did not hinder but that they ought nevertheless to have their eyes open to see if indeed an Assembly had done its Duty after the example of the Bereans of whom it is said that they conferred what St. Paul told there with the Scriptures to know if it was so that we ought to distinguish a judgment of Charity and of Humility which only fram'd a probable conclusion from a perswasion of infallibility which fram'd a necessary conclusion that out of this judgment of Charity and of Humility we ought to presume in favour of an Assembly and even of a particular Doctor but that because as well Assemblies as particular persons are subject to error we ought not to push on this judgment of Charity and Humility even to the blinding ones self when that indeed an Assembly or a Doctor had err'd and that this would be pushing things beyond their just bounds for example said he being what I am in my flock People are obliged to prejudge in my favour that I understand better the sense of the Scripture than meer private persons but they ought not nevertheless to think me infallible nor imagine it can never happen to me to be deceived in point of Doctrine in which case certain it is that a meer private person would have a right to believe he might understand the sense of the Scripture better than me The business in dispute said then M. de Condom is not about particular Doctors we know particular Doctors may err and by consequence we ought not to have for them an absolute obedience but we talk of a whole body of Ecclesiastical Assemblies and I require of you a clear answer upon this point whether you believe meer particular persons may understand the sense of the Scripture better than a whole Body of the Church assembled in Council M. Claude made answer that he had spoke of particular Doctors only to shew that humility ought not to be abused nor under a pretence of