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doctrine_n article_n church_n creed_n 2,425 5 10.1630 5 false
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ID Title Author Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication) STC Words Pages
A28837 A conference with Mr. Claude, minister of Charenton, concerning the authority of the church by James Benigne Bossuet, Bishop of Meaux ... ; faithfully done into English out of the French original.; Conference avec M. Claude, ministre de Charenton, sur la matière de l'eglise. English Bossuet, Jacques Bénigne, 1627-1704.; Claude, Jean, 1619-1687. 1687 (1687) Wing B3780; ESTC R23256 107,935 138

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not_o this_o difficulty_n to_o show_v seq_n vid._n sup._n p._n 2_o 3._o &_o seq_n that_o the_o word_n church_n signify_v in_o the_o creed_n a_o visible_a church_n i_o lay_v for_o a_o foundation_n that_o in_o a_o confession_n of_o faith_n such_o as_o this_o creed_n be_v word_n be_v use_v in_o their_o most_o natural_a and_o most_o simple_a signification_n and_o i_o add_v that_o the_o word_n church_n signify_v so_o natural_o the_o visible_a church_n that_o the_o pretend_a reform_a author_n of_o the_o chimaera_n of_o a_o invisible_a church_n in_o all_o their_o confession_n of_o faith_n never_o use_v the_o word_n church_n in_o this_o sense_n but_o only_o to_o express_v the_o visible_a church_n clothe_v with_o the_o sacrament_n with_o the_o word_n and_o with_o all_o the_o public_a ministry_n see_v the_o passage_n of_o the_o confession_n of_o faith_n i_o have_v relate_v with_o the_o consequence_n i_o have_v draw_v from_o they_o i_o be_v not_o the_o first_o who_o make_v this_o remark_n it_o 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reformation_n have_v not_o be_v able_a to_o change_v the_o necessary_a condition_n of_o humani●●_n which_o for_o the_o hinder_v division_n and_o quiet_v man_n min●●_n require_v a_o final_a decision_n independent_a of_o all_o new_a examination_n either_o general_n or_o particular_a the_o christian_a church_n be_v not_o exempt_a from_o this_o law_n and_o the_o more_o regular_a she_o be_v the_o more_o her_o constitution_n depend_v on_o a_o entire_a submission_n of_o mind_n the_o more_o need_n she_o have_v of_o such_o a_o authority_n wherefore_o from_o the_o very_a beginning_n of_o christianity_n god_n himself_o have_v put_v into_o the_o heart_n of_o all_o true_a christian_n that_o they_o must_v no_o long_o search_n nor_o examine_v after_o the_o church_n have_v determine_v this_o inviolable_a tradition_n have_v wrought_v its_o effect_n in_o our_o reform_a maugre_o their_o principle_n nor_o do_v i_o wonder_v at_o it_o 29._o re●_n de_fw-fr 〈◊〉_d s._n 29._o st._n basil_n very_o wise_o and_o 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mr._n claude_n shall_v publish_v his_o relation_n it_o will_v appear_v that_o the_o little_a he_o say_v natural_o require_v all_o that_o i_o recite_v so_o it_o be_v that_o the_o pretend_a reform_a be_v aver_v in_o establish_v their_o church_n to_o have_v do_v contrary_a to_o what_o the_o orthodox_n ever_o do_v and_o precise_o what_o all_o 〈◊〉_d have_v do_v and_o mr._n claude_n press_v upon_o this_o matter_n can_v in_o all_o the_o history_n of_o christianity_n show_v one_o only_a church_n true_o christian_a found_v as_o the_o church_n of_o the_o new_a reformation_n it_o may_v now_o be_v judge_v what_o likelihood_n there_o be_v that_o what_o all_o heretic_n have_v do_v contrary_a to_o the_o practice_n of_o all_o the_o orthodox_n can_v ever_o be_v authorise_a by_o the_o example_n of_o the_o apostle_n when_o they_o separate_v from_o the_o synagogue_n but_o since_o mr._n claude_n place_v the_o strength_n of_o his_o defence_n in_o this_o example_n i_o desire_v he_o to_o add_v to_o the_o 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authorise_v they_o in_o it_o there_o be_v no_o less_o require_v than_o jesus_n christ_n himself_o present_a on_o the_o earth_n with_o all_o the_o authority_n of_o his_o eternal_a father_n and_o in_o a_o word_n to_o dissent_v from_o the_o sentiment_n of_o the_o synagogue_n tho'_o beside_o convince_v by_o the_o scripture_n it_o be_v necessary_a that_o jesus_n christ_n the_o corner_n stone_n in_o who_o all_o be_v to_o be_v unite_v shall_v appear_v visible_o on_o the_o earth_n with_o the_o incontestable_a mark_n of_o his_o mission_n i_o leave_v you_o now_o to_o consider_v whether_o a_o example_n of_o this_o nature_n can_v give_v any_o occasion_n of_o ever_o separate_v from_o the_o church_n of_o jesus_n christ_n or_o of_o say_v that_o this_o church_n found_v on_o the_o rock_n must_v fall_v or_o that_o the_o succession_n of_o which_o jesus_n christ_n be_v the_o source_n can_v suffer_v any_o interruption_n and_o whether_o all_o do_v not_o here_o rather_o cry_v out_o against_o such_o a_o 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he_o draw_v afterward_o eleven_o consequence_n from_o the_o doctrine_n he_o have_v explicate_v and_o pass_v to_o the_o second_o part_n the_o objection_n take_v from_o the_o book_n of_o the_o king_n this_o be_v the_o idea_n of_o his_o work_n it_o be_v in_o these_o four_o question_n and_o these_o eleven_o consequence_n that_o he_o attack'_v with_o all_o his_o might_n the_o doctrine_n i_o have_v teach_v concern_v the_o perpetual_a visibility_n of_o the_o church_n but_o you_o be_v go_v to_o see_v that_o he_o can_v not_o do_v it_o till_o he_o have_v first_o frame_v himself_o a_o false_a idea_n of_o it_o to_o show_v that_o the_o church_n speak_v of_o in_o the_o creed_n aught_o to_o be_v always_o visible_a i_o say_v that_o all_o christian_n by_o the_o name_n church_n understand_v a_o society_n seq_fw-la vid._n sup._n p._n 2._o &_o seq_fw-la make_v profession_n to_o believe_v the_o doctrine_n of_o jesus_n christ_n ●nd_v give_v itself_o by_o his_o word_n whence_o it_o follow_v that_o it_o be_v 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some_o truth_n she_o must_v keep_v and_o teach_v all_o truth_n else_o she_o be_v not_o the_o church_n nor_o be_v it_o to_o any_o purpose_n to_o distinguish_v the_o fundamental_a article_n from_o the_o other_o for_o all_o that_o god_n have_v reveal_v must_v be_v retain_v he_o have_v reveal_v nothing_o to_o we_o that_o be_v not_o very_o important_a for_o our_o salvation_n 17._o isai_n xlviii_o v._o 17._o i_o be_o the_o lord_n which_o teach_v thou_o profitable_a thing_n in_o the_o faith_n then_o which_o the_o church_n teach_v must_v be_v find_v the_o fullness_n of_o the_o truth_n reveal_v by_o god_n otherwise_o she_o be_v no_o long_o the_o church_n that_o jesus_n christ_n found_v that_o particular_a person_n may_v be_v ignorant_a of_o some_o article_n i_o easy_o confess_v but_o the_o church_n conceal_v nothing_o of_o what_o jesus_n christ_n have_v reveal_v and_o therefore_o the_o faithful_a who_o be_v ignorant_a of_o certain_a article_n in_o particular_a confess_v they_o nevertheless_o 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the_o national_a where_o the_o full_a and_o final_a resolution_n shall_v be_v make_v by_o gods_n word_n to_o which_o if_o any_o one_o refuse_v to_o submit_v with_o a_o express_a disclaim_n of_o his_o error_n he_o shall_v be_v cut_v off_o from_o the_o church_n it_o be_v not_o then_o say_v i_o to_o gods_n word_n alone_o precise_o as_o such_o that_o the_o full_a and_o final_a resolution_n belong_v since_o after_o it_o be_v propose_v a_o appeal_n be_v permit_v but_o to_o gods_n word_n in_o as_o much_o as_o explicate_v and_o interpret_v by_o the_o church_n last_o judgement_n the_o second_o act_n be_v take_v out_o of_o the_o synod_n of_o vitré_n relate_v in_o the_o book_n of_o the_o discipline_n it_o contain_v the_o letter_n of_o mission_n which_o all_o the_o church_n make_v when_o they_o send_v deputy_n to_o the_o national_a synod_n see_v the_o term_n of_o it_o we_o promise_v before_o god_n to_o submit_v ourselves_o to_o whatsoever_o shall_v be_v resolve_v in_o your_o holy_a assembly_n be_v persuade_v that_o god_n will_v preside_v in_o it_o and_o guide_v you_o by_o his_o holy_a spirit_n in_o all_o truth_n and_o equity_n through_o the_o rule_n of_o his_o word_n this_o persuasion_n say_v i_o if_o it_o be_v ground_v only_o on_o a_o human_a presumption_n can_v be_v the_o matter_n of_o so_o solemn_a a_o oath_n by_o which_o they_o swear_v to_o submit_v to_o a_o resolution_n they_o do_v not_o yet_o know_v it_o can_v then_o be_v found_v but_o upon_o a_o express_a promise_n that_o the_o holy_a ghost_n will_v preside_v in_o the_o last_o judgement_n of_o the_o church_n and_o catholic_o say_v no_o more_o the_o three_o act_n which_o be_v find_v also_o in_o the_o same_o book_n of_o the_o discipline_n be_v the_o condemnation_n of_o the_o independent_o on_o their_o say_n that_o every_o church_n ought_v to_o govern_v itself_o without_o dependence_n on_o any_o one_o in_o ecclesiastical_a matter_n this_o proposition_n be_v in_o the_o synod_n of_o charenton_n declare_v as_o prejudicial_a to_o the_o state_n as_o to_o the_o church_n it_o be_v there_o judge_v that_o it_o open_v the_o door_n to_o all_o sort_n of_o irregularity_n and_o extravagance_n take_v away_o all_o remedy_n and_o make_v way_n for_o the_o form_n as_o many_o religion_n as_o parish_n but_o say_v i_o whatever_o synod_n be_v hold_v if_o we_o do_v not_o believe_v ourselves_o oblige_v to_o submit_v our_o judgement_n to_o they_o we_o can_v avoid_v the_o inconvenience_n of_o the_o independent_o and_o the_o leave_v a_o door_n open_a for_o the_o set_n up_o as_o many_o religion_n i_o do_v not_o say_v as_o there_o be_v parish_n but_o as_o there_o be_v head_n we_o must_v then_o come_v to_o this_o obligation_n of_o submit_v our_o judgement_n to_o what_o the_o catholic_a church_n teach_v these_o three_o act_n be_v take_v out_o of_o the_o book_n of_o the_o discipline_n print_v at_o charenton_n in_o the_o year_n 1667._o the_o four_o be_v find_v in_o a_o book_n of_o mr._n blondes_n entitle_v act_n autentique_v print_v at_o amsterdam_n by_o blaeu_n in_o the_o year_n 1655._o it_o be_v a_o resolution_n of_o the_o national_a synod_n of_o sainte_n foy_n 1578._o which_o name_v four_o minister_n to_o meet_v at_o a_o assembly_n where_o be_v to_o be_v treat_v a_o reunion_n with_o the_o lutheran_n by_o frame_v a_o formulary_a of_o profession_n of_o the_o common_a faith_n power_n be_v give_v to_o these_o minister_n to_o decide_v all_o point_n of_o doctrine_n and_o other_o that_o shall_v be_v bring_v into_o deliberation_n and_o to_o consent_v to_o this_o confession_n of_o faith_n even_o without_o communicate_v any_o far_o about_o it_o with_o the_o church_n if_o the_o time_n permit_v not_o to_o do_v it_o from_o this_o act_n i_o conclude_v two_o thing_n one_o that_o the_o whole_a synod_n trust_v their_o faith_n in_o the_o hand_n of_o four_o private_a person_n a_o thing_n far_o more_o extraordinary_a than_o to_o see_v particular_n submit_v to_o the_o whole_a church_n the_o other_o that_o the_o pretend_a reform_a church_n be_v yet_o but_o little_o assure_v of_o her_o confession_n of_o faith_n since_o she_o consent_v to_o the_o change_v it_o and_o that_o in_o point_n so_o important_a as_o be_v those_o that_o make_v the_o dispute_n with_o the_o lutheran_n one_o of_o which_o be_v the_o reality_n if_o the_o pretend_a reform_a hope_v that_o the_o lutheran_n will_v return_v to_o they_o there_o be_v no_o need_n of_o a_o new_a confession_n of_o faith_n what_o be_v then_o intend_v be_v that_o both_o the_o one_o and_o the_o other_o continue_v in_o their_o sentiment_n there_o shall_v be_v frame_v a_o confession_n of_o faith_n in_o which_o both_o party_n may_v agree_v which_o can_v not_o be_v do_v without_o add_v or_o suppress_v something_o essential_a in_o a_o confession_n of_o faith_n which_o they_o give_v we_o as_o teach_v only_o the_o pure_a word_n of_o god._n mademoiselle_n de_fw-fr duras_n acknowledge_v to_o i_o that_o have_v see_v in_o my_o treatise_n these_o act_n and_o my_o reflection_n which_o be_v the_o same_o with_o these_o i_o now_o make_v she_o know_v not_o what_o to_o answer_v to_o they_o and_o that_o therefore_o she_o desire_v to_o hear_v what_o answer_n mr._n claude_n will_v make_v as_o well_o upon_o these_o act_n as_o upon_o the_o other_o difficulty_n that_o regard_v the_o authority_n of_o the_o church_n i_o tell_v she_o that_o tho'_o those_o of_o her_o religion_n act_v as_o hold_v the_o church_n authority_n infallible_a and_o indisputable_a yet_o it_o be_v true_a that_o they_o deny_v this_o infallibility_n and_o i_o add_v that_o it_o be_v a_o constant_a maxim_n in_o her_o religion_n that_o every_o private_a person_n how_o ignorant_a soever_o be_v oblige_v to_o believe_v that_o he_o can_v understand_v the_o holy_a scripture_n better_o than_o all_o the_o council_n and_o all_o the_o rest_n
subterfuge_n for_o we_o have_v still_o a_o argument_n leave_v to_o overturn_v the_o whole_a pretend_a reformation_n see_v it_o take_v from_o the_o very_a principle_n lay_v by_o themselves_o the_o word_n church_n ought_v to_o be_v take_v in_o the_o pretend_a reformeds_n confession_n of_o faith_n as_o it_o be_v natural_o take_v in_o a_o fundamental_a article_n of_o the_o christian_a religion_n else_o this_o confession_n of_o faith_n will_v not_o be_v conformable_a as_o it_o pretend_v to_o the_o holy_a scripture_n now_o in_o this_o confession_n of_o faith_n the_o word_n church_n be_v take_v for_o a_o visible_a society_n this_o proposition_n be_v acknowledge_v in_o the_o synod_n of_o gap_n as_o we_o just_a now_o see_v it_o be_v thus_o then_o that_o the_o word_n church_n be_v natural_o take_v in_o holy_a scripture_n and_o in_o the_o creed_n for_o a_o visible_a church_n and_o the_o term_n catholic_n or_o universal_a put_v in_o the_o creed_n 1._o man._n ans_fw-fr q._n 1._o as_o mr._n claude_n confess_v to_o distinguish_v the_o whole_a body_n of_o the_o church_n true_o christian_n spread_v over_o the_o whole_a earth_n from_o all_o false_a church_n and_o all_o particular_a church_n instead_o of_o render_v the_o church_n invisible_a make_v she_o so_o much_o the_o more_o visible_a as_o it_o more_o visible_o separate_v she_o from_o all_o false_a church_n and_o put_v in_o her_o bosom_n all_o the_o particular_a church_n so_o visible_a and_o so_o remarkable_a by_o their_o common_a profession_n of_o faith_n and_o their_o common_a government_n the_o eleven_o reflection_n on_o mr._n claude_n own_o acknowledge_v the_o church_n perpetual_a visibility_n the_o surprise_v doctrine_n of_o this_o minister_n but_o without_o dispute_v any_o far_o we_o need_v only_o 〈◊〉_d to_o mr._n claude_n and_o 〈◊〉_d what_o he_o grant_v we_o in_o his_o manuscript_n answer_v concern_v the_o church_n perpetual_a visibility_n and_o will_v to_o god_n i_o can_v here_o transcribe_v all_o this_o work_n there_o will_v be_v see_v in_o it_o many_o thing_n very_o favourable_a to_o our_o doctrine_n which_o i_o can_v well_o make_v understand_v till_o it_o shall_v be_v public_a but_o it_o be_v not_o for_o i_o to_o publish_v it_o and_o i_o be_o contend_v to_o transcribe_v at_o length_n forasmuch_o as_o it_o be_v necessary_a the_o passage_n you_o be_v go_v to_o see_v such_o as_o i_o find_v they_o in_o the_o duke_n of_o cheureuses_n manuscript_n own_a as_o i_o have_v say_v by_o mr._n claude_n himself_o now_o if_o he_o 〈◊〉_d find_v to_o speak_v of_o the_o church_n after_o a_o manner_n new_a in_o the_o 〈…〉_o this_o m●st_v not_o be_v wonder_v at_o for_o two_o reason_n the_o first_o because_o it_o be_v true_a he_o have_v teach_v in_o a_o manner_n the_o same_o doctrine_n in_o his_o other_o 〈◊〉_d th●_n he_o have_v 〈◊〉_d explicate_v it_o more_o full_o and_o 〈◊〉_d order_n th●●●_n over_o the_o second_o because_o he_o pretend_v to_o say_v nothing_o new_a a_o 〈◊〉_d we_o ought_v to_o rejoice_v at_o there_o be_v nothing_o more_o desirable_a 〈◊〉_d to_o see_v the_o number_n of_o the_o principle_n and_o article_n on_o which_o we_o may_v agree_v increase_n let_v we_o enter_v then_o with_o all_o our_o heart_n into_o this_o 〈◊〉_d design_n let_v we_o 〈◊〉_d in_o what_o mr._n claude_n agree_v with_o we_o and_o let_v we_o re●●●●_n his_o doctrine_n in_o the_o 〈◊〉_d order_n th●●_n he_o 〈◊〉_d it_o in_o his_o three_o and_o four_o question_n and_o afterward_o in_o his_o eleven_o consequence_n what_o i_o find_v at_o first_o be_v that_o it_o be_v manifest_a that_o th●_n the_o 〈◊〉_d church_n be_v mix_v with_o the_o 〈◊〉_d end_n and_o 〈◊〉_d confession_n 〈◊〉_d cease_v not_o to_o be_v visible_a in_o the_o mixture_n as_o the_o good_a 〈◊〉_d with_o the_o three_o in_o one_o and_o the_o 〈◊〉_d field_n and_o as_o the_o good_a 〈◊〉_d with_o the_o 〈◊〉_d in_o one_o and_o the_o same_o 〈◊〉_d this_o go_v well_o let_v not_o proceed_v this_o mixture_n hinder_v indeed_o the_o just_a discernment_n of_o person_n but_o it_o hinder_v not_o the_o discernment_n or_o distinction_n of_o the_o order_n of_o person_n even_o with_o certainty_n we_o know_v not_o certain_o who_o be_v in_o particular_a true_a believer_n nor_o who_o be_v hypocrite_n but_o we_o know_v certain_o that_o there_o be_v true_a believer_n as_o there_o be_v hypocrite_n which_o be_v sufficient_a to_o make_v the_o visibility_n of_o the_o true_a church_n i_o hear_v this_o with_o joy_n assure_o we_o shall_v advance_v mr._n claude_n give_v it_o we_o already_o for_o manifest_a that_o there_o shall_v be_v always_o a_o visible_a body_n of_o which_o one_o may_v say_v there_o be_v the_o true_a believer_n i_o continue_v to_o read_v his_o answer_n and_o i_o find_v that_o he_o blame_v i_o for_o impute_v to_o the_o pretend_a reform_a that_o they_o believe_v not_o the_o body_n in_o which_o god_n have_v place_v according_a to_o st._n paul_n some_o apostle_n some_o teacher_n some_o pastor_n and_o the_o rest_n to_o be_v the_o church_n of_o jesus_n christ_n how_o glad_a be_o i_o to_o be_v reprehend_v provide_v we_o advance_v it_o be_v then_o manifest_a that_o the_o body_n of_o jesus_n christ_n which_o be_v his_o church_n shall_v always_o be_v compose_v of_o pastor_n of_o teacher_n of_o preacher_n and_o also_o of_o people_n it_o be_v then_o consequent_o always_o very_o visible_a and_o the_o succession_n of_o the_o pastor_n as_o well_o as_o that_o of_o the_o people_n aught_o to_o be_v manifest_a in_o it_o mr._n claude_n confirm_v here_o his_o discourse_n by_o a_o passage_n of_o mr._n mestresat_n who_o determin_n that_o we_o must_v not_o seek_v the_o church_n of_o god_n out_o of_o the_o ministry_n and_o the_o word_n so_o much_o the_o better_a and_o i_o be_o glad_a that_o mr._n claude_n find_v in_o his_o church_n many_o follower_n of_o this_o doctrine_n i_o be_v afraid_a 5._o vid._n sup._n p._n 5._o that_o the_o minister_n will_v not_o find_v the_o visible_a church_n in_o this_o passage_n of_o st._n paul_n to_o the_o ephesian_n where_o the_o church_n be_v propose_v to_o we_o without_o spot_n and_o without_o blemish_n and_o i_o have_v set_v myself_o to_o prove_v that_o this_o church_n describe_v by_o st._n paul_n be_v the_o visible_a church_n because_o it_o be_v wash_v by_o baptism_n and_o by_o the_o word●_n mr._n claude_n enter_v at_o first_o into_o my_o sentiment_n he_o say_v that_o in_o this_o passage_n we_o must_v understand_v indeed_o the_o church_n which_o be_v already_o in_o heaven_n but_o also_o the_o visible_a church_n whichi_v on_o the_o earth_n as_o make_v together_o but_o one_o and_o the_o same_o body_n and_o he_o cite_v here_o also_o mr._n mestresat_n i_o receive_v this_o doctrine_n and_o if_o any_o of_o our_o reform_a be_v it_o mr._n claude_n himself_o ever_o object_n to_o i_o that_o i_o must_v not_o so_o much_o rely_v on_o the_o church_n visibility_n since_o there_o be_v at_o least_o a_o part_n of_o this_o church_n which_o be_v invisible_a that_o be_v to_o say_v that_o which_o be_v in_o heaven_n i_o will_v answer_v that_o this_o ought_v not_o to_o trouble_v we_o since_o that_o in_o fine_a by_o this_o doctrine_n of_o mr._n mestresat_n and_o mr._n claude_n be_v in_o communion_n with_o the_o visible_a part_n of_o the_o church_n i_o be_o sure_a to_o be_v so_o also_o with_o the_o invisible_a part_n which_o be_v already_o in_o heaven_n with_o jesus_n christ_n so_o that_o it_o be_v very_o certain_a that_o all_o be_v reduce_v in_o fine_a to_o the_o visibility_n mr._n claude_n pass_v thence_o to_o the_o objection_n that_o may_v be_v make_v and_o he_o decide_v at_o first_o that_o the_o visibility_n of_o the_o church_n be_v a_o visibility_n of_o ministry_n he_o must_v then_o at_o last_o as_o he_o acknowledge_v in_o the_o church_n a_o perpetual_a visibility_n come_v to_o show_v we_o a_o succession_n in_o the_o ministry_n and_o in_o one_o word_n a_o train_n of_o lawful_a pastor_n he_o object_n to_o himself_o that_o the_o ministry_n be_v common_a to_o the_o good_a and_o the_o bad_a whence_o it_o seem_v one_o may_v conclude_v against_o his_o doctrine_n that_o good_a and_o bad_a compose_v the_o church_n and_o he_o answer_v that_o if_o the_o use_v the_o ministry_n be_v common_a to_o good_a and_o bad_a this_o be_v only_o by_o accident_n and_o through_o the_o fraud_n of_o the_o enemy_n that_o of_o right_n it_o belong_v only_o to_o the_o true_a believer_n and_o that_o the_o supernatural_a destination_n be_v only_o for_o they_o all_o this_o be_v clear_a except_o this_o expression_n the_o ministry_n of_o right_n belong_v only_o to_o the_o true_a believer_n for_o as_o one_o may_v understand_v by_o this_o that_o none_o but_o true_a believer_n be_v lawful_a pastor_n one_o may_v fall_v into_o the_o inconvenience_n of_o be_v to_o examine_v every_o one_o in_o particular_a whether_o the_o pastor_n be_v indeed_o true_a believer_n