mot 45. saith The truth is that some there haue bene in many ages in some points of the Protestants opinion in so much that scarce any peece or article there is of our whole faith but by one or other first or last it hath bene called in question and that with such liking for the time that they haue all in a manner drawne after them great heards of followers I know Bristo meaneth they were hereticks that in all ages did this but that can he neuer proue yet in the meane time belike he saw some that were of the Protestants faith before of late The second is Reynerius that liued three hundred yeares ago who discoursing of the Waldenses a people for substance of the Protestants religion e Refert Illyric catal tom 2. p. 543. saith They are in all the cities of Lombardy and Prouince and other countries and kingdomes They haue many followers and dispute publickely we haue numbred fortie Churches of theirs and ten schooles in Parish No sect hath continued so long some say it hath bene since the time of Syluester some since the Apostles and there is almost no country wherein it spreadeth not They haue great shew of pietie liuing vprightly before men and beleeuing all things aright concerning God and all the articles in the Creed onely they hate and blaspheme the Church of Rome c. In this testimonie of Reynerius you may see our Church was Catholicke both in place and persons and time and doctrine and that the Church of Rome was resisted and the religion thereof refused afore Luther The true cause why it was not so frequent and publicke as now it is either in place or persons was the persecution of the Pope and the generall corruption of the Papacie which as a leprosie infected and as a mist obscured welnigh all places and persons that sometimes not the true beleeuers themselues such I meane as are come to our knowledge were void of error in euery point though they firmly held the foundatiō as these Waldenses did And if it pleased God in processe of time to giue more libertie to the persons and more puritie to the doctrine what iust occasion is this to say we are not all one Church when the true faith of Christ is not alwayes alike visibly and purely professed Minutius Felix f Octau pa. 401. saith Why are we vnthankfull and why enuie we if the truth of God hath grown ripe in our age let vs enioy our good and let superstition be bridled and wickednes expiated and true religion maintained 2 The next point that our Church is but in few places of Christendome is both false and impertinent First impertinent for if it were so yet were it no hindrance to the note of vniuersalitie For Gods Church vnder the law was shut vp within the narrow bounds of Iudaea and g Digr 17. nu 31 the Papists say theirs in the dayes of their supposed Antichrist shall be openly seene but in few places and h Dried dogm eccl l. 4. c. 2 par 2. Bellar. not eccl c. 7. confesse it is not required to the vniuersalitie of the Church that of necessitie there be at all times in euery countrey some beleeuers it sufficeth if there be successiuely Whence it followeth that if only one prouince did retaine the true faith yet should it truly and properly be called the Catholicke Church as long as it might be shewed that it were the same which it was at other times in other places of the world the which we can shew of our Church how small soeuer the compasse thereof may fall out to be at some time Next it is false for there is no place in Christendome but there are some of our religion therein as not onely experience but our aduersaries owne reports beare witnesse wherein they i Boz sign eccl l. 19. c. 1. Bell. de Rom. Pont. praefat li. 3. c. 21. item de verb. Dei praefat habit in Gymn Rom. complaine how our heresie so heretickes style it possesseth many and large prouinces England Scotland Denmark Norwey Sweden Germanie Pole Boheme Hungary Prussia Lituania Liuonia whereto they may adde France and the Low countries yea Italy and Spaine it selfe where the barbarous Inquisition dayly findeth the profession of our religion euen at their doores 3 The third point that our Church is not Catholick in doctrine neither is as ill proued as the former For negatiue doctrine so farre as it is euil standeth not in denying some points which the fathers held but in denying that which they held according to the Scriptures and which they taught and maintained to be certain and necessary matter of faith deliuered in the Scriptures wherein neither we nor the Centuries euer refused them Neither haue we denied any one point which they held in all ages for the truth as our aduersaries haue For though the Centuries reiect this and that which the Father 's held yet they deny neither this nor that which was holden for the truth in all ages as appeareth by their historie wherein they shew the succession of our faith in all ages and note how it was many times corrupted and mistaken euen by some of the ancient Fathers which is all for substance that the Magdeburgenses can be charged with wherein they haue neither denied the doctrine of the Catholicke Church nor offered the Fathers any wrong to say they had some errors as all men haue and themselues confesse which gaue occasion to others to erre likewise which errors the Centuries sometimes more then was cause noting they did not thereby notwithstanding accuse the whole Church of error because euery thing was not the Churches doctrine that some particular men therein held and what they noted of some particular Fathers must not be stretched to be meant against them all as their censuring somtimes ouermuch of many together for some things written against the truth must not be expounded to be the deniall of all they held beside for if it be and the Centuries be thus censured let this Iesuite say directly without shrinking why doth k Cathar tract de concep virg Suar. to 2. disp 3 sect 6. the Church of Rome hold the virgin Marie was conceiued without sinne l Capreol 3. d. 3. Ban. par 1. p. 75. Paul Cortes in sent which all the Fathers with one consent deny Let them looke my demaund in the face that thinke it heresie to deny the Fathers yea all the fathers consenting in one Digression 47. Of the authoritie of the ancient Fathers in matters of our faith and religion Wherein it is shewed what we ascribe to them and how farre forth we depend vpon them And the practise of our aduersaries in contemning eluding and refusing both them and their owne writers is plainly discouered 4 But this is a point that must be further looked into and not suffered to passe away thus Our aduersaries neuer make an end of boasting of the Fathers and by
integritie of the text This distinction is a Relect. princip doctrin contriou 5. q. 3. art 3. pag. 525. D. Stapletons and therefore the Iesuite must admit it and it is the truth for no translation can fully expresse the idiom or propertie of the originall language and words and phrases may be defectiue and all secondary causes haue their impediments all which may in their kind be truly called errors and we deny not but our English translation and the Latin vulgar too is subiect to them but this hindereth not the truth of the matter nor the perfection of the text saith D. Stapleton 3 And therefore that which the Iesuite vrgeth against our translations is of no force because it proueth no error in matter but inwards onely as I haue said before for we graunt as he saith the Scripture was not written immediatly in English neither was the translator assisted by the holy Ghost in such sort that he could not erre in any point but being a man be might erre for he might erre in his owne worke which he did himselfe viz. in words and proprieties but in the matter contained which is Gods work he could not holding him to the originall Hebrew and Greeke which our translator did or at the least it was not vnpossible but he might truly and faithfully translate without any new inspiration though he were a man otherwise subiect to error because the originall might leade him and many other meanes might direct and admonish him and discouer his error else what will the Iesuit say when an ordinarie Pastor preacheth Gods word to the people For that which he deliuereth may be free from error and yet his voice is a humane worke and himselfe hath no immediate or infallible inspiration The very same reason is there of translations for a diuine work propounded by a humane meanes may be free from error which I further proue by Bellarmines owne confession who speaking of the vulgar Latin b Admittimus enim interpretem non esse prophetam errare potuisse tamen dicimus eum noÌ„ errasse in illa versione quam ecclesia probaâ—it De verbo Dei l. 2. c. 11. saith He admitteth the translator was no Prophet but subiect to error yet he could not erre in that translation which the Church allowed where he granteth that some translatioÌ„s done by a man subiect to error may yet be free if the Church allow it Now the Church hath allowed our English and we say ours is the true Church and therefore the translator though he were but a man did not erre Againe thus I reason if the Latin translator were freed from erring that is to say might erre but yet did not then our English translator may be freed likewise because he hath the same meanes for if the approbatioÌ„ of the church exempted him ours also hath the same approbation but that could not exempt him for it was extant and therefore was free from error if euer it were so at al c It began to be receiued about the time of Gregory the great who entred his Papacy in the yeare 590 saith Baron annal toÌ„ 2. an 231. nu 47. but was neuer declared to be authenticall till the Councell of Trent Sess 4. anno 1546. a thousand yeares or at the least some time afore the Church either allowed it for authenticall or could take notice of it And when the Councel of Trent did approue it it put no other truth into it then was there before but onely declared it to be true It followeth therefore that the translator was preserued from error by no other meanes and why might not the same direct ours also as namely the infallible and perpetuall veritie of the doctrine it selfe translated the direction of Gods spirit his owne diligence meanes skill faithfulnesse and the Churches carefull ouersight 4 The summe of all is this that our English Bible containeth two things the Doctrine and the Translation d 1. Tim 3.16 2. Pet. 2.20 The Doctrine was inspired of God written by men infallibly assisted by the holy Ghost and therefore is free from error and so coÌ„sequently the Scripture translated into English in respect of the matter is infallibly true because it was done by the immediate inspiration of the spirit of God The translation was done by the ministerie of the Church and industrie of certaine men who though they had no supernaturall inspiration or priuiledge from error yet we know infallibly they haue not erred in the matter by the same meanes whereby we know other truths and discerne other articles of Christian faith namely by the light of the doctrine translated the testimony of the spirit the ministery of the word the rules of art the knowledge of the tongues and such like 5 To that which the Iesuite faith out of Gregory Martin I answer that Martin hath said something against our translations but proued nothing Doctor Fulkes confutation of his discouery lieth yet vnanswered and long must do Martin cannot giue one instance of the sence corrupted his exceptions are childish if you reade his booke But as e De opt gen interpret ad Pammach Ierome said of some that vnskillfully reproued his translations so I may answer Martin and the Iesuite These and such like toyes are scored vp for our hainous faults Martin missed it farre as f Treatise of Renuntiat p. 156. some of his fellowes charge him producing the Councell of Trent against him when he allowed Recusants to go to Church with a Protestation He that was so short in his proofes at home might be as wide in his discoueries abroad And if the g Palaephat de Fabul non credent Lamia would haue pluckt his eyes out of his boxe and vsed them at home as well as he did abroad he might haue seene some errors also in his owne vulgar Latin whereof I will say something in the seuenth digression 6 His next reason is that the often change and variable translations do shew that some haue erred Whereto I answer two things First though it be granted that some haue erred yet hence it followeth not that all haue which is the point he must proue else he were as gond say nothing For we defend the Scriptures well and faithfully translated not this or that mans edition whereof our Church taketh no notice whether it be pure or no. It is sufficient for the veritie of our assertion that in the Church there be some translations faithfull and agreeing with the originall 7 Secondly we do not deny but our translations varie and haue bene altered according to h Posseuin biblioth select l. 2. cap. 8. inde Sixt. Senens biblioth Sanct. lib. 8. haeres 13. Bellar. de verb. Dei l. 2. cap. 8. Caesar Baron tom 2. an 231. Aug. de doctr Christ lib. 2. cap. 11. the example of the primitiue Church before vs. But this variety hath bin in the words and style and not in any materiall
vniuersall doctrine of God of Angels of all other creatures specially of man of his first framing of his finall end and of all things pertaining to his nature of his fall by sinne of his reparation by grace of lawes prescribed vnto him of vertues which he ought to imbrace of vices which he ought to eschue of Christ our redeemer his incarnation life and passion and his coming to iudgement of the Sacraments and all other points that anie way pertaine to Christian religion The Answer 1 That the Iesuites Romane Church hath continually held the present faith it now professeth is false and confuted a Sect. 35. Digr 22. 23. alreadie And I wonder he might for shame say it For is any so mad as to beleeue his Popes supremacie his Latine seruice his reall presence hath alway bene visible from the beginning when there is not so much as any mention of them in antiquitie All that religion therfore which the Romane Church maintaineth against vs came in by peece-meale through the faction conueyance of certaine persons which in all ages corrupted the truth and increased the corruptions by degrees till at length they obtained the name of the Romane faith 2 Next whereas he saith it is proued Catholicke in place by this that it hath and alway had some in euery coast that communicate in profession with it we must distinguish the times For in the Primitiue Church and long after the Christian world indeed communicated with the faith professed in the Romane Church but then it was not the same it is now and so the present Church of Rome is not iustified by this communion but condemned rather Afterward the nations of the world ioyned in profession with it likewise as it degenerated and grew vp in corruption but marke how One part being the smaller and obscurer liued in the middest thereof and communicated with no more then was the truth excepting some small errors like b 1 Cor. 3.12 hay or stubble builded on the foundation and this is not properly any communion with the Papacie but with the true Church whereto the Papacie in the Church of Rome grew as a scab or as a disease Another part communicated with it in the errors also as they grew and embraced the Papacie c Apo. 17.2.4.15 13.14 18.9 2. Thess 2.11 but this was the seduced world which the whore of Babylon made drunke with the wine of her fornication and deceiued with strong delusions And yet this communion was not so great but that many famous Churches in the world refused it and departed from it as soone as the alteration into the faith it now holdeth began visibly to appeare as the Churches of Greece and Armenia for example which to this day would neuer communicate with it Maginus d Geogr. descr pag. 166. saith The Greekes long since departed from the Church of Rome and appointed themselues Patriarkes whom they acknowledge to be their heads and not onely the Greekes obey them but all the Prouinces also that follow the Greekes religion Circassia Walachia Bulgaria Moscouia Russia the more part of Pole Mingrelia Brosina Albania Illyricum part of Tartarie Seruia Croatia and all the Prouinces lying vpon the Euxin sea Whereby it is plaine that many famous countries and infinite people neuer allowed of the Romane faith but haue kept possession against it to this day though many reâ—eiued it as in times past many communicated with Arius and Mahomet and yet they are not proued Catholicke thereby 3 To the last point concerning the vniuersall doctrine taught in the Romane Church I answer that it is not the holding of certaine heads and articles of religion which maketh a Church Catholicke but the holding them truly according to the Scripture Which truth being remoued the more is holden the worse and lesse Catholick is the Church that holdeth them For as much therefore as the Romane Church by adding and detracting hath corrupted the vniuersall doctrine of Christian religion and especially the points mentioned by the Iesuite and patched thereunto innumerable abuses errors and superstitions to the certaine damnation of all that beleeue them it is not proued Catholicke by teaching all the doctrine of religion but manifestly Antichristian because it teacheth euery point vntruly § 47. Neither doth it at this day denie any one point of doctrine which in former times was vniuersally receiued for verity or the Catholicke Church The which if anie will take vpon him to denie let him shew and proue first what point of doctrine the Catholicke Romane Church doth deny or hold contrarie to that which by the Church hath bene vniuersally held as we can shew the Protestants do The Answer 1 The Iesuit needed not to haue bidden vs shew the points holden in his Church against that which the Church of Christ vniuersally held in former ages for we name and shew euery point of his faith wherein he dissenteth from vs and proue that it came in contrary to the doctrine of the Church through the conueyance of some therein being neuer vniuersally receiued of all but maintained and aduanced by the power and contention of some against the rest which either resisted it or receiued it doubtfully And I VNDERTAKE TO SHEW THIS IN ANIE QVESTION OF HIS RELIGION THAT HE WILL NAME VNTO ME BY PROVING THE SAME TO BE AGAINST THE SCRIPTVRE FIRST AND THEN CONTRARIE TO THE PRIMITIVE CHVRCH AND FINALLY TAVGHT BY THE SHOOL-MEN AND OTHERS IN THE ROMANE CHVRCH IT SELFE OTHERWISE THEN NOW THE IESVITES AND TRENT COVNCELL DELIVER IT This is enough to answer the present chalenge and I haue performed it in euery question handled in this booke and namely Digress 32. to 42. Digression 49. Obiecting eight points for example wherein the Church of Rome holdeth contrary to that which formerly was holden The conception of the virgin Marie Latine seruice Reading the Scriptures Priests mariage Images Supremacie Communion in one kind Transubstantiation 1 First touching the conception of the virgin Marie which all the ancient fathers beleeued to be in original sin and the elder Schoolmen vniuersally as I shewed vpon another occasion out of Dominicus a Part. 1. in Tho. q. 1. art 8. dub 5. Bannes and b De consecr d. 4 Firmissime nu 11. Turrecremata contrarie to c Sixt. 4. c. Cum prae excelsa Graue nimis in Extrau commun Concil Trid. sess 5. § Declarat tameÌ„ haec Galatin Arcan l. 3 pag. 490. the present beliefe of the Church of Rome 2 Next touching Latin seruice which is vsed in the Church of Rome against all antiquitie and the iudgement of many d 1. Cor. 14. The Apostle saith If an instrument of musicke make no distinction in the sound how shall it be knowne what is piped So likewise you except by the language you vtter words that haue signification how shall it be vnderstood what is spoken For you shall speake in the ayre I will pray and sing with the
flesh of Christ § 52. Fourthly the Protestants Church is not Apostolike because they cannot deriue their pedegree lineally without interruption from the Apostles as the Romane Church can from S. Peter but are enforced to acknowledge some other as Luther or Caluin or some such from whom mediatly or immediatly they haue receiued by succession the Preachers of their faith Luther and Caluin themselues being not sent of anie to teach this new faith nor succeeding lawfully to anie Apostolike Bishop or Pastor but being as Optatus Mileuitanus said lib. 2. contra Parmen Victor the Donatist an hereticke was Filij sine patre discipuli sine magistro Children without a father scholers without a maister Or as S. Cyprian lib. 1. Epist writeth of Nouatus Nemini succâ—dentes à seipsis Episcopi ordinati sunt Succeeding to none were ordained Bishops of themselues The Answer 1 Our answer is that the succession required to make a Church Apostolicke must be defined by the doctrine and not by the place or persons that is to say they must be reputed the Apostles successors which beleeue the Apostles doctrine although they haue not this outward succession of Pastors visibly following one another in one place throughout all ages as the Iesuite saith it is in the Romane Church For Saint Paul a Ephes 2.20 telleth the Ephesians they are built vpon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets in respect of their calling to the knowledge of the Gospel and yet they had not lineally as the Iesuite meaneth it descended from the Prophets And Nazianzene saith b Laud. Athan. Succession in godlinesse is properly to be accounted succession For he that holdeth the same doctrine is also partaker of the same succession as he that is against the doctrine must be reputed to be also out of the succession Which being granted the Iesuites discourse about succession is soone answered To the same effect speaketh his owne c D. 4. Non est facile Canon They are not the children of the Saints that sit in their places but which do their workes Yea the Iesuites confesse this For Posseuine d Not. verbi Dei pag. 328. ad interrog 11. writeth that the true Church is called Apostolicke not onely for the succession of Bishops from the Apostles but also for the consanguinitie of doctrine And Gregory of Valenza e Tom. 3. pag. 141. proprietas 4. telling why the Church is called Apostolicke in the Nicene Creed giueth onely three reasons First because it began in the Apostles next because by them it was spred all ouer the world thirdly because it still followeth their faith and authoritie Waldensis f Tom. 1. doctrinal l. 2. art 2. cap. 18. saith The Apostles filled the whole Church with wholsome doctrine and in that respect the whole Catholicke Church is also called Apostolicke By all which it is plaine that for the being of an Apostolicke Church it is sufficient if it hold the Apostles faith though it want the Iesuites succession mentioned 2 Whence it followeth that although it were granted the Romane Church could shew a perpetual succession of Prelates without interruption from S. Peter which the Iesuit saith may be shewed but g See digress I deny yet were it not thereby proued Apostolike vnlesse these Prelates had also retained S. Peters doctrine that the reader may see all other marks of the Church must be tried by the doctrine and that the Iesuits succession and vnitie and vniuersality proue nothing vnlesse the true faith concurre therewith 3 Whence it followeth again that it is no disaduantage to the Protestant Churches if holding the Apostles doctrine they want externall succession of place persons such as the Iesuite boasteth of because the Apostolicknesse of the Church is not to be defined by it but wheresoeuer the true faith contained in the Scriptures is professed and embraced there is the whole and full nature of an Apostolicke Church 4 And so I answer the Iesuites discourse in particular that we can deriue our faith from the Apostles and that without interruption in that to this day it was neuer interrupted though such as succeeded visibly in bishops thrones did not alway professe it it is sufficient that their malice could neuer extinguish it and the professors and teachers thereof liued in the Romane Church it selfe which beside all other testimonies we know by this that it is the faith of the Scriptures which cannot be extinguished but groweth in the middest of all her enemies 5 And touching Luther and Caluin I answer Touching the calling of Luther that whatsoeuer is said against them dependeth vpon another point which is the faith that they taught For if that were the truth theÌ„ no doubt they were sent of God to teach it we hearing them receiued it of them no otherwise then Gods faithful people are bound to receiue the Gospell of their Pastors And whereas he saith they succeeded no Apostolick Bishop neither had any calling to preach that new faith I answer that for the externall succession whereof I haue spoken we care not it is sufficient that in doctrine they succeeded the Apostles and Primitiue Churches and those faithfull witnesses which in all ages since embraced the same in persecution though they succeeded not in that open manner that was vsed afore heresie and persecution grew And albeit the Romane Church would not heare them yet had they a lawfull calling First inwardly from God who stirred them vp gaue them gifts directed them by his spirit and blessed their labor then outwardly in the Church of Rome it selfe where they were created Doctors of Diuinity and Pastors to teach the people as they were baptized by vertue whereof they might lawfully preach afterward that which by the Scriptures they found to be the truth and did lineally succeed the true Pastors of the Church that liued before them If it be obiected that hauing their calling in the Church of Rome it will follow thereupon that only the Church of Rome is the true Church this is easily answered by denying the consequence For the Church of God and the Papacie were mingled together and were both called by one name the church of Rome by reason that in diuers things that were good and indifferent they communicated So that euen in the Papacie many of the things of Gods Church remained as the Scripture Baptisme and these callings which the Pope and his Clergie occupying did as pirates that occupie another mans ship and his goods therein and therefore conferring baptisme and callings to diuers persons that afterwards forsooke the Pope the said persons notwithstanding rightly inherited them as the true Churches goods which the Papacie vsurped And whereas the Iesuite saith they were not sent to preach this new faith I answer him that this new faith as he styleth it is the true faith therfore euen that sending which they had bound them to preach it though at the first it reuealed it not