all sufficieÌ„t These two you must distinguish the first is here affirmed the second is not There must be meanes to knowe which is Scripture which Booke which Chapter which verse and to know the sense of it And herein wee must be directed by the Spirit of the Church Wee must take the Scripture from her hands and the meaning of it from her mouth Harke what the same Apostle saith in an other place 2. Thess 2.15 Hold the Traditions you haue learned whether it be by word or by our Epistle 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 But of this you shall heare more here after It is sufficient here that no place of Scripture doth contradict the doctrine of the Church and your labour to prooue it is all vaine for that Spirit which directed the writers of Gods word doth allso direct the Church to the sense of it and therefore it is vnpossible for any man to finde Opposition betwixt the Church and Gods word 34. Stay now let vs looke on the contradictions all together in could blood before we goe The first God forbids to giue soueraigne honour to any but to him selfe Papists say an inferior and relatiue honour may be giuen to the pictures of Christ and his Saincts The secoÌ„d Antichrist is opposite vnto and extolled aboue all that is called God and sits in the Temple of God shewing himselfe as if he were God Papists The Pope is Christs Vicar here vppon earth and Pastor of his Churth The third The Eucharisticall bread is the participation of the body of our lord Papists it is not the participation of bakers breade but of the true body of Christ in forme of breade The fourth If I pray in a toÌ„gue my Spirit prayeth but my minde is without fruite Papists It is not necessarie that Priests say Masse in the vulgar tongue The fift Abraham beleeued God that he should be Father of many Nations and it was imputed to him to iustice Papists Iustifying faith is not that whereby N. N. beleeues his sinnes are forgiuen him The sixt The Apostles were commanded all to drinke the cuppe Papists The lay people are not commanded to drinke the cuppe The seuenth All Scripcure is profitable to teach c that the man of God may be perfect instructed to euery good worke Papists Traditions are to be receaued the Scripture is not by itselfe all sufficient This is the substance of that which hath bene here discussed Good logicians be modest or go peripatize with your Aristotle some where els I sit and you stand in the same schoole are contradictories according to the rule by which our nimble Masons do builde their newe Church but A man is iustified by works and not by faith onely A man is not iustified by works but by faith onely are not contradictorie though you meane workes done by grace and in grace a litle newe morter may dawbe them both together for if ye marke the one of them is true in the iudgment of S. Iames the Apostle and the other is true in the iugdment of Mr. Iohn Caluin and so they are not secundum idem THE FIFT CHAPTER Other places of Scripture are answered 35. BEing past the monstrouse Argument which thought to affright me wich the multitude of his heades I was going on to cite Scripture against you but an other Chimaera meets me in the Way Iohn White in his preface to the way had made his bragge that ProtestaÌ„ts haue Scripture in manifest places free from all ambiguitie on their side And being to make this good in his Defence I Whites Defense â— 8. n. 4. hath pickt out such places as he thought of most aduantage and most cleere Parte of them are the same with some of those I haue allready spoken of in the former Chapter The rest I will runne ouer briefly beare with me if I be longer in this point then you desire The first An Angell would not be adoared by S. Iohn but refused it saying see thou doe not Apoc. 1â— 10 22 v. 9â— I aÌ„ thy fellowe seruaÌ„t adore God The Apostle againe another tyme fell downe to adore the Angell and it was againe answeared as before Answ It is cleere by this text that the Angell refused to be adored by S. Iohn and this wee beleeue But it is not said here that it is ill to adore an Angell yea in the iudgment of S. Iohn it was conuenient and being told of it he still beleeued it to be conuenient for he did offer notwithstanding the first refusall to doe it the second tyme. The place therefore is against you Neither is there any difficultie in the matter for S. Iohn might well offer it and the Angell considering how deare the Apostle was to the Sonne of God and lord of Angells and how greate his Apostolicall dignitie was might well refuse it So v. Bede S. Anselme and others vppon this place Luke 17.10 36. The second When you haue done all things that are commanded you say wee are vnprofitable seruants wee haue done that which wee ought to doe This is brought to exclude all merite from our actions donne by and in grace But it comes to short first because here is speach onely of things commanded Matth. 19.21 â— Cor. 7. v. v. 25.38.40 now there are other actions not commanded and by those at leaste wee may merite notwithstanding this sentence Secondly God by creation is Lord of all his creatures and men thereby are naturallie bound to serue him 2. Pet. â—â— Iohn 1.12 By grace men are made partakers of the diuine nature and are sonnes of God and he their Father Wherefore if as seruants they could not merite as by nature indeed they cannot as children they might Seruants are vnprofitable if their masters profit come not from their seruice howsoeuer they may be peraduenture good husbands for theÌ„ selues And this place hath nothing to the contrary Thirdly our labour is vnprofitable to God our lord and Master for he is neuer the better for that wee doe being infinitelie happie in him selfe but it may be profitable to our selues and this is not here denied 37. The 3. Blessed are the dead which die in our lord from hence forth now saith the Spirit that they rest from their labours for their works follow them This place is brought against Purgatorie or paines after this life Apoc. 14.13 suffered by such as depart in the grace of God But it is so farre from being cleere to this purpose S. Aug. l. 20 Ciuit. c. 9. that it rather helpes our cause Some with S. Augustine vnderstand the place of Martyrs and Martyrs instantlie goe to heauen wherefore in that way there is no difficultie S. Ansel vppon this place in the words Others with S. Anselme interprete from hence that is from the Resurrection or generall Iudgment and they are grounded in the discourse of the Chapter This way hath no difficultie neither for all immediately after that tyme are
q. 5. c. 17. The Scripture Isay 59 2â— My words that I haue put in thy mouth shall not depart out of thy Mouth and out of the mouth of thy seede and out of the mouth of the seede of thy seede saith our lord from this present and for euer The same place your brother Puritan doth allso contradict in denying a perpetuall visible Church Wee beleeue that the Church is assisted by the holy Ghost to all truth You say No And so do all Hereticks Our Sauiour in the Scripture Io. 14.16 16. v. 13 I will giue you another Paraclete that he may abide with you for euer the Spirit of Truth he shall teach you all truth 55. Thus I am come in fine to the first againe which doth confirme all the rest RemeÌ„ber what I said in the begining of this Chapter in so much that what I haue here shewed in the last place out of Scripture doth prooue that the Church doctrine deliuered by word of Mouth is all true whether it be written downe in the Bible or be not for these places of Tradition by word the word of God euer in the mouth of the Church and the Spirit suggesting and teaching all truth are not limitted in the Scripture to writing as in the text you see And therefore now I repeate my argument made in the begining of this Chapter If the Scripture doth formallie auouch our doctrine and denie yours in the maine points wherein wee differ Arg. it is euidentlie vnpossible for you or any man breathing to make it euident by the Scripture that the Apostles and primitiue Church were of your Religion not of ours or that yours is true ours false But the Scripture doth auouch our doctrine and denie yours in the maine pointes wherein we differâ— as I haue showne Therefore it is euidently vnpossible for you or any man breathing to make it euident by the Scripture that the Apostles and primitiue Church were of your religion not of â—urs or that yours is true ours false 56. Now since your doctrine is thus contrary to Gods word and consequentlie your spirit being rubde vppoÌ„ this tuchstone being found to be counterfait it were not amisse to looke about from whence you had your doctrine and whence your Spirit came Which thing I could finde out without much adoe and would set downe here but that I haue allreadie bene to longe I will therefore onely \ shewe you the way to finde it and so conclude Looke out the place where Gods commandements are neuer kept but esteemed vnpossible where all actions are sinnes and sinnes neuer remitted or wiped cleane away where there is no Indulgence or remissioÌ„ of any paine due to sinne no works of supererogatioÌ„ acknowledged no state of perfectioÌ„ no Merit of works no Libertie to doe well no prayer for the deade no Communion with saincts in heauen nor prayers made vnto them where Priestlie function is abhorred holy Sacrifice blasphemed and the very Images of Christ and his Saincts loathed and detested Where there is no Iustice inherent no constant rectitude or infallibility of iudgment no coÌ„tinual Visibilitie of sacred Profession no Vnitie in Religion but a confused admittance of all that are against the Catholique of Wicklefists and Hussites Luther doth confesse it in his Booke de missa pri tom 7. fol. 228. VVittemb a. 1558. See Luthers life by Mr Brereley câ— 1. â— 2. and Arians and Athiests aÌ„d all people that will obstinatly refuse confession of their Sinnes works of pietie and the common Creede and make theÌ„selues their owne wittes the Iudge of all looke out this place aÌ„d the rest you will finde there I haue heard and reade and doe beleeue that the spirit which instructed Luther your Master came from thence The Conclusion THe protestants are not able to giue satisfactioÌ„ in the Question of the Church whereby as allso by their Opposition to the Scripture and Antiquitie it is manifest that theirs is not the true Religion which or where else soeuer the true Religion be THE SECOND BOOKE WHEREIN IS DECLARED which is the true Church THE FIRST CHAPTER Shewing by authoritie of holy scripture that the true Christian Church is Catholike for tyme and place 1. SINCE your Church cannot be prooued to be Catholicke or vniuersall in regard of a generall communion which the world and perpetuall visibilitie you pretend there is no necessitie of any such latitude of place or tyme and would perswade vs that it is Catholique for doctrine because it holds the three Creeds with Baptisme aÌ„d the Supper and is not tied to one tyme or Nation but such as may be in any which you call negatiue vniuersalitie for tyme and place and for doctrine positiue Thou seemest to speake acutelie said S. Augustine to Vincentius a man of the Rogation Heresie and your Master in the way of defending your Religion as it seemes when thou doest interprete the name Catholique S. Aug. ep 48 by the obseruation of all diuine Precepts and all Sacraments and not of the communion of the whole world c. but indeed the thing which thou doest indeuour to persuade vs is that onelie Rogatians haue remained who are rightlie to be called Catholiques by the obseruation of all the diuine lawes and all Sacraments and that you onelie are the men in whom the sonne of man may finde faith when he comes Pardon vs wee beleeue it not And afterwards in the same Epistle you are with vs in baptisme in the Creede in the rest of our lords Sacraments In the spirit of Vnitie and in the band of peace and finallie in the Catholique church you are not with vs. As that Rogatian so you in your interpretation would seeme acute but vnto such onelie as neither knowe Scripture nor the state of the Question It is true that the doctrine of the true Church is perfect and the Obiect of her faith entire in it selfe but in your books and beleefe it is mangled and diuided so that part onelie is there allowed as hereafter shall appeare The Question is not here about that but about the Church that is about a certaine congregation of men and about the Vniuersalitie of such a Congregation not negatiue as you would haue it but positiue of tyme and place And because you admit not a positiue vniuersalitie that is a being of the Church in all Nations and in all tymes I will demonstrate vnto you by Scripture the Vniuersalitie of the true Church which soeuer it be whether the Roman or any other of which further point I will not dispute in this Chapter And allthough the scripture be full of testimonies for this vniuersalitie I will alleadge a fewe onelie aÌ„d those in order out of Moyses the Psalmes Prophets and Gospell which being well looked into will suffice 2. But first lest you rhinke you are to open your eies to looke on a Church and it inuisible by reason that in the Creede wee beleeue the Church
is the sense of the Spiritte of the Catholique Church and of the holie Ghost himselfe And in this sense of vnbloodie exteriour Sacrifice in forme of breade and wine the catholique church diffused thorough the whole world doth and euer did vniuersallie consent as I haue sufficientlie declared 76. Lastlie taking the Christian Church thus beleeuing and practizing and comparing it to the Prophecies I confound the Iewes too and make an in euitable demoÌ„stration that the Catholique Church in communion of all Nations thus offering a cleane Oblation to God EVERIE WHERE is the true Church of God and shake those people of with that of Malachie My will is not in you saith the Lord of hosts and guifte I wil not receaue at your hand Mal. 1. v. 10 11. for from the rising of the Sunne euen to the going downe my name is greate among the GENTILES and IN EVERIE PLACE there is Sacrificing and there is offered to my name a CLEANE OBLATION because my name is greate AMONGE THE GENTILES saith the Lord of Hosts THE TENTH CHAPTER Tradition 80. BEing not able with your sillie Arguments to driue vs from the Masse you growe desperate and runne foolishlie into the mouth of a Canon It was declared at Nice and since againe at Trent Conc. Nicen 2. act 7. Conc. Tr. sess 4. that Tradition is to be admitted without it you can knowe nothing in diuine matters because it must reach you the Scriptures wherein you pretend to grouÌ„d your selfe Yet because it doth withall offer more then you are willing to receaue you speake against it I haue spoken of it sufficientlie in the first and third bookes but since you repeate your argument I will resume also part of my discourse 8s The doctrine of Tradition is grounded in the Scripture 2. Thess 2. v. 15. Hold and obserue the Traditions which you haue learned either by word of mouth or by our letter heere are distinguished as you see plainlie two waies of deliuering the sacred truth and instruction one is by writing the other by word of mouth and it is to be kept and obserued if the Apostle may be iudge in the matter whether it be deliuered the one way or the other The same in another place allso he doth teach writing vnto Timothie thus 2 Tim. 2. v 2. The things which thou hast heard of me by manie wittnesses commend vnto faithfull men which shall be fitte to teach others allso This is the care the Apostle did take that what he had said might be conuaied vnto Posteritie from haÌ„d to hand commend vnto them saith he which shall be fitte he doth not say to write but to teach these thiÌ„gs which thou hast heard of me he doth not say which thou hast reade but heard and that openlie by manie wittnesses this doctrine taught by word of mouth is to be conserued by teaching others and this is the sacred depositum where of he had spokeÌ„ in the former chapter referring the good keeping thereof to the assistance of the holy Ghost 2. Tim. 1. v 14. keepe the good depositum by the holie Ghost which dwelleth in vs. Which is conformable to our Sauiours promise in S. Iohn He the holie Ghost shall teach you all things and suggest vnto you all things whatsoeuer I shall saie vnto you He saith not whatsoeuer shall be written but whatsoeuer I shall saie and God the Father in his promise to the Church Isa 59. v. 21 My words that I haue putte in thy mouth shall not depart out of thy mouth c. which words are more generall then if he had said thus the Scripture shall neuer be out of thy eies or thou shalt be euer reading that which I will cause to be writteÌ„ or it shall neuer out of the booke whereinsoeuer I shall write it he saith not so but my words shall not out of thy mouth and out of the mouth of thy seed and out of the mouth of the seede of thy seede from hence forth for euer a cleere testimonie of the perpetuitie of sacred doctrine euer deliuered by word of mouth which is the thing wee call Tradition 82. Heerevppon Sainct Ireneus a man neere vnto the Apostles tyme â— Iren. l. 3. â—du Haeres â— 2.3.4 and well seene in their doctrine doth say that the Tradition in the Church receaued from the Apostles hath beene kept by the Succession of Bisshops that the Apostles laid vp in the Church as in a rich depositorie all truth and that therefore for resolution of controuersies recourse is to be made vnto the most auncient Churches So likewise Tertullian one allso of those who were neere vnto the Apostles tyme doth tell vs that in disputation with Heretiques wee are not to appeale vnto the Scripture Tertull. Praesc c. 19. because Heretiques will interprete as they list but that wee must inquire where the faith where the Church is from whom by whom when and to whom the discipline hath beene deliuered whereby Christians are made for where it shall appeale that the truth of discipline and Christian faith is there will be the truth of the Scriptures and of Expositions and of all Christian Traditions wee must vse Tradition S. Epiphan Haeres 61. Vide eundem in haeresi 55. 69. saith S. Epiphanius because all things cannot be had out of diuine scripture wherefore the holie Apostles haue deliuered some things by scriptures and some things by Tradition Many things saith Sainct Augustine are not found in the writings of the Apostles nor in the constitutions of later Councells which notwithstanding are beleeued to haue bene deliuered and commended by them the Apostles because by the vniuersall Church they are obserued S. August l. 2. Bapt c. Donat. c. 7. The doctrines which are obserued and taught in the Church wee haue partlie by the written word and partlie wee haue had them brought vnto vs by Apostolicall tradition S. Basil l. de sp s c. 27. Ib. c. 29. S. Chrys in 2. Thess â— saith S. Basil and in another place I esteeme it Apostolicall to perseuer in vnwritten traditions It is manifest saith S. Iohn Chrysostome that the Apostles deliuered not all by letters but many things without writing and these the vnwritten are as worthie to be beleeued as those other deliuered by writing Wherefore wee thinke the Churches tradition worthie of beleefe it is a tradition Vincent Lirin c. 1. 2. looke no more To conclude Vincentius Lirinensis in his booke of the Prophane Noueltie of Heresies doth tell that he learned of wise and holie men this way to perseuer in the true faith to fence it as he saith with the authoritie of the diuine lawe and with the tradition of the Catholique Church And obiecting presentlie to him selfe as if Ecclesiasticall authoritie were not necessarie because of the sufficiencie of the Scriptures he answeares that it is necessarie because all men vnderstand not the Scripture the same way because of the depth
of the Deuil opposed to the Cittie of God or Societie of the Good Others think it to be Rome as it was in S. Iohns time when the Emperours there abiding did persecute the Church of Christ and as it will be about the end of the world Be it this or that or some other nothing is heere auouched against vs. It is not heere said that the Pope is that Woman or that he is the Beast on which the Woman sate or that he is one of the Heades of the Beast or that he is Antichrist No one of all these is heere affirmed why then do you alleage it what is this to the argument wherein I said the Scripture doth no where formallie contradict vs or how doth it iustifie your bragge that you haue Scripture in manifest places free from all ambiguitie on your side 43. And thus farre concerning the texts alleaged by Iohn White which he affirmed to be manifestlie and without ambiguitie for the Protestants where as not any one doth in termes contradict that which our Church doth teach which was the thinge he made his reader to expect But you will bid a man aske the Spirit for the sense of these places And to meet with you at this turning too so will I. You will direct him to the Spirit in your selfe in Iohn white I will direct him to the Spirit in the Church My direction and resolution is well grounded as I will declare here after Yours is not And if by this litle which hath bene said here in this Chapter a man would make a guesse at your Spirit he should quicklie find his nature First he contradicts the Spirit of the Fathers who held Purgatory merit c. SecoÌ„dlie he coÌ„tradicts the Spirit of the Catholike Church which he doth oppose in these things Thirdly he contradicts the Spirit of S. Iohn the Apostle and imputes vnto him a deliberate act of superstitious Idolatrie so you call adoring aÌ„gells together with grosse stupiditie that being tould once and that by an Angell too he would not forbeare but doe it againe But of this I shall speake againe in an other place that which for the present I conclude here is that the Scripture doth not condemne vs in plaine words You haue done all you can to shew it and cannot yet finde one place for this purpose You see allso by the way what I thinke of your consequences though that was not my scope in this discourse as I declared in the begining of the former Chapter THE SIXT CHAPTER That is vnpossible for Protestants to winne the cause by Scripture 44. HEretiques all generallie affect obscuritie they drawe their opponent as much as euer they can into the darke that he may not see there what they doe or their confusion be concealed from the people and so their credit saued I expected cleere places I looked for a coÌ„bate in the light you should haue shewne in plaine words in the Scripture there is no Purgatory Christ is not in the Sacrament reallie Priests and Bysshops may take wiues to worship Angells is Idolatrie These and the rest of your propositions you should haue showne there if you would haue woÌ„ne that way and haue done that which you pretended But you haue not done it you haue cited some places which haue it not in the words and in regard they are obscure to you or to the ignorant you suspect or guesse and preteÌ„d the sense which you would haue may lie secret in the words though you cannot shewe it there and wee knowe it is not there at all Wee haue light enough to see that the Scripture in those places doth not as much as obscurely speake against vs wee haue prayer aÌ„d industry wee haue the Fathers helpe wee haue innumerable eies regardiÌ„g the doctrine of the Church and the Scripture and coÌ„paring them together In a word the assisting Spirit with all his guifâ—s is in our Church 45. Now to shewe further how vnpossible a taske it is for you to declare and make it euident out of Scripture that yours is the true Religion and ours not I will turne the argument which I did vse in the begining of the former Chapter into an other forme aÌ„d make it thus If the scripture doth formallie auouch our doctrine and denie yours Arg. it is vnpossible for you to make it euident by the Scripture that your Religion is true and ours false But the Scripture doth formallie auouch our doctrine and denie yours and this I will shewe running thorough the points wherein our maine difference doth consist which are the Infallibility of the Church in deliuering Scripture aÌ„d Gods word generallie Traditions reall Presence OblatioÌ„ of Christs body aÌ„d blood in the formes of bread aÌ„d wine for the remissioÌ„ of Sinnes which is the vnbloodie Sacrifice The Primacie of S Peeter and his Pastorall office Absolution from sinnes by Priests Indulgences Iustice before God and intrinsecall in meÌ„ or inherent Iustification by works and Reward of them keeping the Commandements Freewill in works of grace Vowes and workes of Counsell not of command Single life prayer for the dead Intercession of Sainctes and Angells and finallie Worship of some things inanimate or sensles in regard of the reference they haue to things truely capable of honour more then ciuile In these generall heads the rest are included and these you name allwayes and stand most vppon them I am now by my promise to bringe their grounds out of Sripture wherein I will be as briefe as I can and will begin with the neerest which is the last aÌ„d so backwards till I meete the first againe Before I begine the taske two thinges are to be noted The first is that I am not in this Chapter to coÌ„tend about the sense and meaning if you pretend it is not that which the words offer immediately but that my taske is donne if I bringe places of scripture which affirme formally if the words be taken in their proper sense that which wee doe A further Iudgment or determination of the meaning and sense of the words I bringe is to be taken from the testimonie of the Spirit The Spirit I say is to be iudge of the sense and meaning not the spirit of externes or in them but the spirit in Gods Church And this Iudgment is euidently on our side as I will prooue in the third booke Here I am not to meddle with it but only to finde our doctrine in the same or equiualent words and to put it here downe This you must beare in minde likewise for the argumeÌ„t which in the third Chapter I made out of the Fathers It suffised there against you to cite our doctrine out of their mouthes Of their meaning the Spirit must be Iudge And not the Spirit in externes but the Spirit in the Church The second is that since to descend vnto particulars and to inquire each ones opinion in matter of Religion among ProtestaÌ„ts is endles and of infinite regard 3. Book
the rest Againe Out of all the world saith he Peeter alone is chosen who is constituted ouer the vocation of all Nations and ouer ALL THE APOSTLES and ouer all the Fathers of the Church that al though among Gods people there be many Priests and many Pastors yet Peeter PROPERLIE GOVERNE THEM ALL whom principally Christ doth also gouerne Ep. 89. Apostolorū summo And he saith further of the Pastorall office that Our lord would haue the Sacrament of this function so to appertaine to the office of all the Apostles that he placed it principallie in blessed Peeter the chiefest of all the Apostles that from him as from a certaine HEADE he might diffuse his guiftes into the whole Bodie 4. You Obiect that Leo could not prooue by Scripture that he said But I demaund then why do you alleage his authoritie if you will not stand to it your self I demand secondly which of all the Fathers after him did note this doctrine in him an erroneous or not currant He was a greate Scholler and a Sainct and in the communion of all the Christian world in his tyme. Yet to giue you further content I will put downe the Scripture whereon the doctrine of S. Leo S. Hierō and the rest is grounded There be two chiefe places the first is in the 16. of S. Matth. And Iesus answearing said blessed art thou Simon Bar Iona c. and I say to thee thou art Peeter and VPPON THIS ROCKE will I build MY Church or thus I say to thee Simon thou art Cephas and vppon this Cephas which thou art I will build My Church Heere the demonstratiue this doth point at the thing whereuppon the Church is built vppon this Cephas will I build my Church and Simon is this thing Thou Simon art Cephas and vppon this I build This sense you cannot EXCLVDE without contradicting the words of Iesus Christ Now therefore If you aske the Scripture who is * Deus vnus est Ecclesia vna Cathedra vna super PETRVM Domini voce fundata S. Cyprian ep 40. PETRVS super QVEM adificata ab eodem Domino fuerat Ecclesia vnus pro omnibus loquens c. Id. Ep. 55. Sicut ipse lumen Apostolis donanie vt lumen mundi appellarentur caeteraque ex Domino sortiti sunt vocabula ita SIMONI qui credebat in Petram Christum Petri largitus est nomen secundum metaphoram petrae rectè dieitur ei adificabo Ecclesiam meam super TE S. Hieron in cap. 16. Matth. Ego nullum primum nisi Christum sequens Beatitudini tuae id est CATHEDRAE PETRI communione consocior super ILLAM PETRAM adificatam Ecclesiam scio Id. Ep. 57. ad Damasum Dominus constituit PETRVM primum pastolorum PETRAM firmam super QVAM Ecclesia adificata est c portae inferorum non valebunt aduersus eam portae inferorum sunt Haereses Haeresiarihae iuxta OMNEM enim MODVM in IPSO firmata est fides S. Epiphan in Ancorato Hic est qui audiuit ab ipso Pasce agnos meos CVI concreditum est ouile Ibid. PETRVS qui paulo ante eum confessus erat filium Dei in illa confessione APPELLATVS ERAT PETRA super QVAM fabricaretur Ecclesia paulo post Domino dicēte c. S. Aug. Enar. Ps 69. Vide eundem li. 2 de Bap. cont Donat. c. 1. Intuitus eum Iesus dixit tu es Simon filius Iona tu vocaberis Cephas quod interpretatur Petrus c. Vocabulo commode significans quod IN EO tanquam in Petra lapideque firmissimo suam esse adificaturus Ecclesiam S. Cyr. Alex. l. 2. in Io. c. 12. vide l. 12. c. 64. Ego dico tibi inquit tu es Petrus ego SVPER TE aedificabo Ecclesiam meam ego TIBI dabo claues regni calorum S. Chrysost hom 55. in Matth. Vnus de toto mundo eligitur Petrus qui vniuersarum Gentium vocationi OMNIBVS APOSTOLIS cunctisque Ecclesiae Patribus PRAEPONATVR vt quamuis in populo Dei multi Sacerdotes sint multique Pastores OMNES tamen PROPRIE REGAT Petrus quos principaliter regit Christus S. Leo serm 3. de Anniuers Assumpt Tu quoque petra es quia mea virtute solidaris vt quae mihi potestate sint propria sint tibi mecum participatione communia Ibid. Cunctis Euangelium scientibus liquet quod voce Dominica sancto omnium APOSTOLORVM Petro PRINCIPI Apostolo TOTIVS Ecclesiae cura commissa est IPSI quippe dicitur Pasce oues meas confirma fratres tuos tu es Petrus super hanc petram aedificabo Ecclesiam meam tibi dabo claues c. S. Gregor Magn◠4 Ep. 32. ad Mauritium August Cura ei TOTIVS ECCLESIAE PRINCIPATVS committitur Ibid. Had not these saincts as good eies as Luther the thing in this place vppon which the Church is built it doth answere that it is PEETER here called CEPHAS Moreouer if you aske the Fathers S. Leo S. Hierom S. Aug. S. Cyprian S. Epiphanius S. Chrysostō S. Gregorie they answere it is PEETER If you thinke I interpret them amisse See the 1. Book c. 6. n. 52. As if you should say this points at Christ or any other thing Without inuoluing Peeter aske your Fellowes and they will tell you the Fathers did thinke so And the exclusion of this sense is open violence to the Text and makes it vncoherent Hence I may deduce two things heere The first The Church of Christ was built vppō Peeter for our Sauiour was as good as his word and he said he would doe it The second The rest of the Apostles were built vppon Peeter For if they were the Church of Iesus Christ they were built vppon him because our Sauiours Church which was but one in all was built on him Or if they were in the Church of Iesus Christ as partes in the whole If the Whole be built vppō a foundation each part in that whole is built thereon this Church this whole being built on Peeter on this rocke will I build my Church they being contained therein that is being parts of the whole thing built on Peeter were allso built on Peeter And so Peeter was their Foundation and their Heade subordinate vnto Christ the chiefe Heade and maine Foundation of them all You cannot auoide this discourse because the Apostles were not Infidelles or Heretiques ād therefore either they were the Church or they were in the Church The second place is that in the Gospell of sainct Iohn Peeter Feede my sheepe by which words sainct Peeter peculiarlie is made Pastor of the sheepe of Christ Vide S. Bern. l. 2. de cons ad Eug. pap Hence I argue thus The rest of the Apostles were our Sauiours sheepe therefore sainct Peeter was their Pastor for our Sauiour made him Pastor of his sheepe If you say they were not our Sauiours sheepe then they were not his Disciples he was not
you knew me by another and whether I had euer vsed that I could not then readily call to mind You will say peraduenture that a circumstance tied your tongue This may be and therefore bearing respect that way too I will discouer you no further but leaue you at your liberty though otherwise being out of the Kingdome I might be more open then I am You haue infinitely wronged your owne soule in offering to drawe men from the communion the Church and to leade them into heresies opposite directly to the word of God and accursed by the holy Ghost Trouble not your self any further to dresse vp ould shifts that haue beene worne out long agoe If you cannot prooue your cause positiuely as none euer yet could or will doe as long as God is truth hold your peace The more you maintaine heresie the deeper a lodging you bespeake your self in hell That you may escape that gulphe I shewe you heere S. Peeters Shippe fairely vnder saile towards eternitie and will reach you my hand if you wil come into it F. E. APPROBATIO EGo infrascriptus S. T. Facultatis Parisiensis Doctor testor me legisse tractatum hunc inscriptum A Disputation of the Church hoc est Disputatio de Ecclesia in libros quatuor partitum Authore F. E. in quo nihil inueni vel contra fidem Catholicam Romanam vel contra bonos more 's sed econtrà eandem fidem Catholicam dilucidè probatam confirmatam propugnatam horum temporum haereses solidè ac clarè confutatas In cuius rei testimonium praesentibus subscripsi 17. Maij An. 1629. ANT. CHAMPNEVS VIsâ hac attestatione Doctoris Sorbonici censeo idem opus vtiliter excudi posse Actum Duaci die 28. Maij. 1629. GEORGIVS COLVENERIVS S. Theologiae Doctor regius ordinariusque Professor Duacensis Academiae Cancellarius in eadem Academia librorum Censor COurteous Reader I haue beene forced to vse a Printer who vnderstood not the language therefore wonder not if thou find heere errous in the print as diuision of syllables transposition of letters ill pointing c. In mending one fault sometimes he made another and I had not leisure to looke nicely to him If any doubt occurre in the reading be pleased to haue recourse to this place where the chiefest errours are amended The lesser committed by mistaking the letters or omitting or adding where the sense is not changed I will not speake of because he who cannot in reading supply such defects is not able by himself to make vse of the discourse Pag. 51. l. 17. cuppe pag. 52. l. 4. cuppe p. 90. l. 19. sight p. 96. l. 28. the kingdome p. 105. l. vlt. the temple p. 121. marg In Oper. S. Leonis p. 127. l. 16. and Eutichians after p. 146. l. 18. wee are p. 151. l. 13. then p. 155. 19. saue p. 185. l. 20. word p. 137. l. 15. neere p. 195. l. 13. sonnes p. 206. l. 6. abettors p. 237. l. 24. proceede p. 235. l. 7. is not p. 239. l. 25 in Israel p. 283. marg fact And. p. 298. l. 10. reprehend and his making others by his example to Iudaize was p. 300. l. 16. in our p. 340. l. 7. of nature p. 344. l. 6. tripping p. 347. marg vnitatis p. 359. l. 16. iudgment The. p. 367. l. 3. therefore p. 376. l. 14. it is a. p. 403. l. 8. of all l. 22. thy p. 405. marg l. 6. 4. p. 410. l. 15. omit verie p. 412. l. 27. and p. 413. l. 1. 2. it wrong charact p. 416. l. 12. is p. 424. l. 4. hold p. 430. l. 7. a liuing victime p. 433. marg omit Origen c. p. 435. l. 32. if you beleeue the. p. 441. l. 4. testimony of S. Cypr. vnperf The leaues at the toppe are ill numbred but I followe them as they are Some of those English authors which I haue cited I had not by me and therefore was forced to cite them out of others and out of latine so that I may haue missed to giue the same words but haue kept the sense p. 129. l. 28. an 680. Fathers 289. THE FIRST BOOKE OF THE WANT OF EVIDENCE for the continuall Visibilitie and Existence of the Protestant Religion and Church THE FIRST CHAPTER Declaring that vnto Catholikes demaūding euidēce of the Protestant succession and visible existence at all tymes in the world since the Apostles no satisfaction is giuen by recourse to the Waldenses and such as they were IT were good in the begining for the greater perspicuitie of my discourse to define the thing Protestant whereof I am to speake in this booke but Martine Luther and Iohn Caluin your Apostles and authors of your sect or religion as you call it so detested each others doctrine whē they were aliue that they cannot yet endure one definition being dead In regard of this I was once about to leaue out the Lutheran partie which in England is of lesse note and to sute our English with a definition for their turne but this was lothsome to the Puritan who by noe meanes can abide to be shut vp with the Parlamentarian within the same termes It seemed therfore not amisse neglecting all priuate differences to content my selfe with that wherein they assented and to make a generall notion of the Protestant in common This I thought was easie and might serue well inough But eieing the substance of Protestancie neerer to take measure of the thing wherby my definition might be fit I found noe constant being but vncertaintie in the essence of it This substance being as you saie pointes fundamentall and these more or lesse as euery Spirit will which Spirit is diuers not in the multitude onlie but in the same man many tymes The Moone was abroade in the could frosty nightes without cloethes and her mother pittying her spake to Mercurie as the tale is tould for a coate Mercurie taking measure when she was full a fortnight after or thereabouts brought the garment but found her changed and the coate a great deale to bigge Home he went againe to cut it and returning then it was to little and with all his skill he could neuer make it fit the Moone being some tymes thicke some tymes slender in the wast sometymes horned sometymes round Wheruppō he despaired of the worke and gaue it ouer A hard taske it were for a painter to represent Proteus in a picture but it is harder far to make a definition of your Church her essence or substance doth euer varie and is sometymes greater sometymes lesse neuer constantlie the same Yet because I am to speake of it and without some kind of notion this cannot well be I take here a Protestant for a man of the religion so you call it now currant in England and the Protestant Church I take for a companie of such men 3. Now that you cannot prooue by good euidence the CONTINVAL SVCCESSION or existence of this companie this religion this Church at all
tymes euer since the Apostles vntill this daie it is by longe experience verie manifest Euer since Luther and Caluin did begin to spread their doctrine it hath ben demaunded and your men haue endeuoured to make answeare hauing examined to this end and purpose all Bookes and monumentes that are extant and yet after infinite inquisition noe such euidence can be found Sometymes indeed you name some men of diuers Sectes and Religions in which kind Illyricus hath laboured hard but when he cometh to the thing expected that is to prooue they were of your religion there he leaueth you wheras it is this onlie which is expected from a Scholler for euery prating fellow can affirme what he list It were not hard for an vnknowne vpstart to lay claime to a very noble Petegree and greate Dominions but without euidence he will not be admitted and beleeued It is EVIDENCE that wee looke for show the Proofe of that you say 4. Being vrged againe and againe with this you name in fine the poore Beggars of Lions of Waldo their author called Waldenses wherin you doe meerely spend tyme and cozen simple people You know that your owne men reiected their coÌ„munioÌ„ and it hath ben tould you oft Protest Apol. they agreed not with you The matters of your differeÌ„ce haue ben named and are noted in your owne authors and the thing I demanded was your proofe See Prot. Apol. trac 2. c. 2. sec 3 R. Chalced de essent prot relig lib. 2. cap. 5. your euidence where is it where is your proofe that the Waldenses who liued before Luther for of them onelie I inquire were of the Religion now curraÌ„t among you and where is the Catalogue of their Continuall SuccessioÌ„ euer since the Apostl'es time and Euidence of their Communion with Nations and of the publike profession of that Religion in all the world These things I did expect this Catalogue I must see or the demaund of continuall Succession will rest euer vnsatisfied as it hath donne hetherto 5. Those men dissented from you in the point of a Errant in eo quòd non credunt solam fidem absque operibus iustificare Lutherus in Colloq Germ. c. de Suerm Coc. t. 1. l. 8. a. 4. De imputata iustitia nihil norunt Luth. ibid. Iustification Vide R. Chal. de essen rel prot c. 6. which is the ground and foundation of ProtestaÌ„cie aÌ„d held the reall b Confess Bohem. a. 13. and Caluin saith of their Confession Formulam Confessionis amplecti quae sine discrimine in vnum fasciculum damnationis omnes in voluit qui pracisè non fatâ—ntur panem esse prasentissimè Christi corpus hic recitamus eorum verba an fas sit Christiano homini videritis nos certè non putamus Epist 244. presence in our sense wherefore they were not yours Secondly they held sundry damnable opinions which you dare not approoue as that he which is in mortall sinne Illyric in Catal. test de VVald ex Syl. Rain IteÌ„que Anto. Guid. de Wal. dogm Aeneas Sylu. Hist Bohem. Luxemb in Paup de Ludg. 1. Tim. 4. 1. Cor. 7. falleth out of all dignitie therby whether it be Ecclesiasticall or Ciuile and therfore is not to be obayed that lay men and women may eonsecrate and preach that euerie good layman is a Priest that the Apostles were lay men that clergy men should haue no possessions They condemned Mariage a manifest Heresie IudgmeÌ„t to blood aÌ„d oathes Thirdly your owne men refused their communion as you know by c Cam. de Eccl. in Bohem. c. p. 273. Camerarius d Morg. tract de Eccl. p. 79. and 124. Morgernstern e Calu. Ep. 278. Caluin f Melanc in Consilijs par 2. pag. 152. Melancthon g Schlus Catal. tom 3. p. 188. And see Iewell Pantaleon and Osiander of the Albigenses cited prot Apol. Sec. cit Schlusselburg and others and charge them with maintayning obstinately grosse errours and Heresie Fourthly they had no Hierarchie hauing amongst them no Bishops Fox acts moÌ„ p. 628. Sim. VoyoÌ„ Cata. p. 132 Osiand Epitom and their owne tenet suprà nor Priests but al being lay people and therefore could not be the Church of God Fiftly Waldo a Marchant of Lions and an vnlerned lay man who liued an 1170. was the first and chiefe of that Sect so that they failed in the point of Antiquitie and Continuall Succession euer since the Apostles which is the thing whereunto you were to answere And will neuer doe till you putte downe some in euery age and bring vnquestionable Euidence for them which will neuer be 6. If notwithstanding the coÌ„trarie iudgmeÌ„t of your men you will ioyne to their Church and maintaine the Succession of your Church by them Heb. 5. v. 4. Rom. 10. v. 15. Confess Bohem. a. 13. Caluinianos VValdensiuÌ„ CoÌ„fessionem dâ—prauasse ostendit Conrad Schlussel Theol. Calu. li. 2. art 6. who could not ordaine you Priests and Bishops hauing themselues none nor teach being theÌ„selues vnsent you must prooue cleerele first that they had lawfull vocation and ordination Secondly that they held not the forsaid errours and Heresies or you must admitte that you hold them also Thirdly that they did agree with you in all other points particularly descending to each As in the manner of the reall presence the Bohemian Confession doth say they did not but that they vnderstood the words properly as wee doe Luth. supra cit R. Chalc. sup cit Haud scio an vsquam diu publicè suam fidem sint prosessi c. praeterquam in Bohemia in quadam valle in radicibus AlpiuÌ„ Illyr de VValdens suprà Epiphan haeres 61. August haeresi 40. that they held iustification by faith as you Luther saith they knew it not yet this is the sowle and foundation of Protestancie in the iudgment and by the confession of your owne men And so you must on to the rest where you will find many of your owne who will coÌ„tradict you to your face Fourthly you must bring proofe that those men were in the world before Waldo and that of them there was a continuall succession euer since the daies of the Apostles I speake not of those Heretikes called Apostolici wherof S. Epiphanius and S. Augustine speake though they coÌ„demned also mariage and hauing of possessions and therefore held in part the forenamed heresies that is two of them but I speake of the VValdenses I demaund good proofe and euidence that such men were existent in the world euer since Christ ascended And I will not accompt it satisfaction if you tell me they saie so for I beleeue neither them nor you but demaund proofe Bring foorth your monumentes and read vs the names of their Bishops or some of them at least for there were such among them if theires were the Church Act. 20 2â— Ephes 4.11.13 Eph. 4.12 since Gods Church is gouerned by Bishopes there were
of the tyme they liued in produce a Catalogue a Continuall Catalogue of such mē as agreed in doctrine with you such as held the religion now currant in England who were they whence were they where were they hould vp your head man open your eies and looke the question in the face THE THIRD CHAPTER That no satisfaction is giuen to the demaund by recourse vnto Antiquitie 15. HAd your religion bene such that you could haue giuen accōpt and euidence of her continuall existence in the world there would yet remaine a greater taske behinde which were to prooue the generall communion it had with Nations and that it was and is Catholique in that respect that it did and doth consent with Antiquitie with the Apostles doctrine and with the Scripture for this must be prooued and exactly too before wee receaue it See the Protest Apol. and the Prud. Ballance and leaue that which hath bene generallie professed in England well neare a thousand yeares together and was all that space the knowne religiō of the Christiā world The true religion is such as I haue said and therfore if you will haue vs praie with you first showe that your Church is thus ample thus Catholique thus grounded and ours not for vntill you prooue this which will neuer be you may not hope that wee will come out of our Church into yours To proceed therfore I demaund euidence that your religion that I saie which in England is now currāt hath bene generallie in the cōmunion of the Christian world and I demaund such euidence as may commaund a wise mā to beleeue it Your answeare to this in effect is that in the first six hundred years it was so though you will not be tied to giue accōpt of it afterwardes By which euasion I doe gather that you apprehend the former argumēt as a ghost haunting and affrighting you seeing that for feare of meeting it againe you haue stepped ouer a thousand yeares together to take sanctuarie among the Fathers in their Church I was about to saie you were ill aduised to aduēture yourselfe thether where Iouiniās Nouatiās Donatistes and other your progenitors were cōdemned and accursed but cōsidering your case better I see that feare would not let you aduise at all but cast you no matter whether so it were farre ynough out of my waie 16. Now therfore I follow thether but first obserue how you dare not auouch and in effecte do deny that the religion you maintaine was openlie professed receaued publicklie for nine hundred yeares before Luther which is but could encouragement for men to come to or to staie with you who pretending to giue accompt of a continuall succession and euer visible Catholique Church doe come so short of the thinge expected that you can show none in all the world for nine hūdred yeares together and this which you haue said being wrested out of you vppon the racke ād much against your will because infinitelie preiudiciall to your cause I take for an effect of the former argument which you haue not ben able to answeare yet nor euer will be The like issue it hath oft had before for your writers ād best learned men hauing the space of a hundred yeares together bene vrged and importuned with this question haue laboriouslie searched all recordes turned ouer and ouer all authors examined all writinges with that industrie men are to suppose which a cause required wheruppon eternitie doth depende and yet after infinite inquisition cannot finde such a Church in former tyme as yours is and herevpon haue confessed that the Christian world was of our Religion before Luther not of yours imagining hereby a generall Apostasie frō the faith to haue ouerrunne the whole world Cal. praef Instit Hence Caluin in his Institutions saith that in the ages past there was no face of a true Church and that the true Religiō was drowned ād ouerthrowne for many ages Whittaker saith no religion but the papisticall had place in the Church Whittak cont Dur. p. 274. and wee knowe saith he as plainlie that the Church hath perisshed as thou knowest a man to be dead The Popes tyranny saith Luther hath extinguisshed the faith many ages Luth. Capt Babil c. de Bapt. Perk. Expos Creed p. 400. Simon Voyon Ep ad lect Hutter de sacrif mis p. 377. Before the dayes of Luther saith Perkins for the space of many hūdred yeares an vniuersall Apostasie ouerspred the world When Boniface was installed saith an other the whole world was ouerwhelmed in the dregges of Antichristiā filthines with superstitiōs and traditiōs of the Pope another I graunt willinglie that the papist Idolatrie hath inuaded all most all the world especiallie these last thousād yeares another Hospin Hist Sacram l. 2. p. 157. in the tyme of Gregorie the great all kinde of superstitiō ād Idolatrie hath as a sea ouerflowed all the Christian world no man resisting Another the Papisticall ād Antichristian Raigne began about the yeere 316. after Christ raigning vniuersallie ād without any debateable cōtradiction 1260. yeares Napp on the Reuel p. 68. the Pope and his clergie during all that tyme possessing the outward visible Church of the Christiās another For certaine through the worke of Antichrist the externall Church Seb. Franc. Ep de abrog stat Eccl. together with the faith and sacramēts vanished a way presentlie after the Apostles departure and for these 1400. yeares the Church hath bene no where externall and visible another the true Church decaied immediatelie after ther Apostles tyme. Fulk answer to Counterf Cath. p. 35. I haue a horrour to recite what the bouldnes of your men doth auouch further towching the Christian Church in common and her Apostasie from the faith cōtrarie to the sēse of all Antiquity and to the iudgment of the Christian world yea contrarie to the promises of Iesus Christ and to the couenant of allmightie God as hereafter I will shewe Meane while compare these textes vnto your doctrine of the Church In the later dayes shall be prepared the mountaine Isay 2. the house of our lord in the toppe of mountaines and it shall be raised aboue the litle hilles and all Nations shall flowe vnto it Thou shalt not be called any more forsaken and thy land shall not be any more called desolate Id. c. 62. but thou shalt be called my will in her and thy land inhabited because our lord hath taken complacence in thee and thy land shall be inhabited Id. c. 59. My spirit that is in thee and my words which I haue put in thy mouth shall not depart out of thy mouth and out of the mouth of thy seed and out of the mouth of the seed of thy seede saith our lord from hence foorth and for euer 17. The Church in the Scripture is so ample that All nations flowe vnto it so established and so deare vnto Christ that she is no more forsaken but her lād euer
inhabited so mind full of God that she hath his words euer in her mouth and by this she is euer existent euer visible That Church or whore which you hunte after perished longe agoe for many ages she was not seene her faith was extinguished her religion drowned she was no where visible she had no face she vanished presentlie immediatelie after the Apostles dayes Our Religion in the meane tyme hathe bene vniuersall many hundred yeares it hath ouer flowed the Christian world none resisting and raigned vniuersallie without any debateable contradiction these thousand two hundred sixtie yeares And thus much of them both you confesse 18. I come now to speake of the religion of the Church primitiue or first six hundred yeares as you measure it and obiect that you doe not nor euer will be able to conuince by cleare and sufficient euidence that the Christian Church in those tymes was of the religion currant now in England and therfore you doe not conuince our vnderstandings that wee should leaue that religion which a thousand yeeres together was currant here in England being then allso by your owne confession the religion of the Christian world and communicate with your congregation And to shewe you here how hard a taske you haue in hand being to giue euidenee of the consent of those tymes with you in religion I will put three considerations in your way which declare the difficultie and indeede the impossibilitie of the taske The first shall be the iudgmeÌ„t of those who liued since that tyme aÌ„d before vs the second the testimonies of the Fathers theÌ„ selues who liued in that primitiue age the third the confession of your owne prime deuines and these I will runne ouer as brieflie as I can 19 First therfore our Religion or Papistrie as you call it had possession of the Christian Arg. 1 world before Luther nine hundred yeares together You confesse the same as wee haue seene aboue nu 16. as all histories doe prooue cleerlie and these Christians all on their Saluation haue deposed that theirs was the verie same religion with that which was commoÌ„ in the first six huÌ„dred yeares and receaued from the Apostles and from Christ himselfe Among them were greate Schollers graue Prelates and holie meÌ„ in great abundance and greater meanes to knowe which was the religion of their forefathers then are now wherfore the question being of fact onelie it is not possible to resolue it better now then those could resolue it then The question I say is now aÌ„d then was of fact as whether the knowne Church of God spred ouer the world in the sixt age for example did frequeÌ„t masse adore the blessed Sacrament confesse their sinnes to Priests fast lent pray to Sainctes and the like what wee knowe of these things wee haue by the relation or writings of others which were before vs for wee caÌ„not see so far immediately with our owne eies nor immediatelie heare them speaking in that age which is past many hundred yeares agoe Those before vs did learne of others that were elder the fourteenth age learned of the thirteenth the thirteeÌ„th of the twelfth the eight of the seuenth the seuenth was immediate vnto the sixt aÌ„d therefore had best meanes to resolue this point because these meÌ„ had their Being Instruction Baptisme Sacraments Orders Records the Bible and all others things from them we speake of that is from the sixt age aÌ„d being close to them of that age So compare the 6. age to the 5. the 5. to the 4. c. and in part allso liuing with them could see heare obserue remember and tell what they did Since therfore all these did beleeue and professe and teach vnto their successors and to their dearest frinds and children aÌ„d generallie vnto the world that theirs was the religioÌ„ of their forefathers it is too late for you now to endeauour to prooue the contrarie for you haue no kinde of historie no monument no relation no fathers writing no scrowle no obseruation in fine noe euidence touching the foresaid age but from them To this I adde that it is vnpossible for the whole Church in any age to erre which is so cleere that to man leaues any way to himselfe to be assured in any point of faith from Antiquitie or from the scripture or from the spirit who denieth it It is therefore vnpossible that for nine hundred yeeres together it should be mystaken in this great affaire of the religioÌ„ of the whole World before them And if the Spirit forsooke it for so loÌ„ge a tyme together notwithstanding Gods promise you labour in vaine to make men beleeue that he is at leÌ„gth returned in your tyme or another promise more faithfully establisshed now Better were it for you to beleeue with vs that allmightie God hath not violated his couenant wherof I spake before my words which I haue put in thy mouth shall not depart out of thy mouth and out of the mouth of thy seed Isay 59.21 and out of the mouth of the seed of thy seede from this present and foreuer And that his eternall ordinance stands in force whereof S. Paul speaketh saying that God gaue Pastors and Doctors to the consummation of the saincts Ephes 4. v. 11.12 vnto the worke of the ministerie to the edifieing of the bodie of Christ vntill wee meete all into the vnity of faith 21. The second meanes or demonstration Arg. 2 is deduced larglie through all ages and out of all the Fathers writings by diuers of our men Thesaurus Catholicus Iod. Cocc among the rest you may looke vppon Coccius and Gualterius who haue expressed our consent with the primitiue Church so fullie and brought such euident and so resolute decrees of auncient Fathers against your errours Tabula Chronographica stat Eccl. Cath. â—aâ— Gualt that you haue dispaired longe agoe of euer winning the cause by this kinde of triall The authorities which they alleage are allmost infinite Coccius hath filled with them two great Tomes and my intention is not to make a booke of this matter but a peece of a Chapter onelie Brieflie therefore for exaÌ„ple I will giue aÌ„ instaÌ„ce in two or three such as doe come first into my minde You denie the primacie of the Roman See the beleefe of vnwritten Doctrine or Tradition the reall preseÌ„ce traÌ„substantiatioÌ„ or coÌ„uersioÌ„ of the substaÌ„ce of breade into the flesh of Christ oblatioÌ„ or vnbloody Sacrifice in the Church prayer for the dead inuocatioÌ„ of Sainctes Crossing c. In the Fathers wee reade thus S. Aug. Ep. 162. Iren. l. 3. aduers Haer. c. 3. The principalitie of the Apostolicall chaire hath euer florished in the Roman Church It is necessarie that euery Church that is all faithfull rounde aboute resorte vnto the Roman Church because of her more powerfull Principalitie in which Church the Tradition which is from the Apostles is allwayes kept by the faithfull which are round about Leo Sem 3.
of S. Paul The chalice of benediction which wee do blesse is it not the communication of the bloud of Christ and the bread which wee breake is it not the participation of the body of our lord I answeare that our doctrine is not here denied but affirmed for the Apostle teacheth here importing withall by his manner of speach the doctrine to be so well and so commonly knowne that none can denie it he teacheth I say that the breade and the cuppe are the communication of the body and bloude of our lord The reason whereof is cleere because in those formes are exhibited reallie the body and the bloude of Christ Whereas in your sense there were no reall receauing giuing or participating of the body and bloud of Christ but of bakers breade and meere wine And therefore to the Apostle the Corinthians if they had bene of your Religion might haue answeared no it is not any communication participation or communion of bloude and flesh but of naturall meate and drinke If you stick at the word breade you are dull for the words annexed to it doe interprete fully what breade it is and before you haue the word applied and the sense of it inculcated in the Sixt of S. Iohn where our Sauiour saith the breade which I will giue is my flesh Io. 6. v. 51.32.58.48 my father giues you true bread from heauen I am the breade of life c. where I thinke you are not so seÌ„sles as to take the word breade for that which bakers make More ouer this flesh or body of Iesus Christ is in the forme of bread in the Church as it was allso in his owne haÌ„d wheÌ„ he gaue it uÌ„to his disciples aÌ„d therefore after the phrase of Scripture it is called breade Mar. 16. Act. 1. as Angells appearing in meÌ„s likenes are there called meÌ„ 30. Fourthlie whereas wee say that it is not necessary the publique seruice be said in the vulgar tongue You oppose those words of S. Paul If I pray in a tongue to wit 1. Cor. 14. v. 14. which I vnderstand not my Spirit prayeth but my minde is without fruite Answ The meaning is that I haue not in that case the benefit of profiting my soule or minde with contemplation of the thinge yet neuer the lesse my Spirit is eleuated and ascendeth vnto God which is the substance and essence of prayer and this is nothing against vs. You vrge againe if thou blesse in Spirit how shall he say amen which doth supplie the place of the vulgar v. 16. since he knoweth not what thou sayest Answ The meaning is if thou speake some praise of God the hearers not knowing whether it be good or bad he that supplies the place of the vulgar cannot say amen to it Neither is this against vs for our coÌ„mon prayers or liturgies are both knowne and approoued by the Church to whom this approbation doth belonge and this all do know and therefore the clarke or he that supplieth the place of vulgar may boudly sâ—â— Amen Moreouer the Apostle doth not censure as ill that blessing in Spirit which you do vrge but sayeth expresly that he doth giue thankes well which doth so v. 17. If you say the contrary theÌ„ you coÌ„tradict the scripture not wee De imputa iustitia nihil noruÌ„t VValdenses Luth. colâ—oq c. de Suermeris Coce l. 8. â— 4. 31. The fift place is to shewe by Scripture that iustifyiÌ„g faith is that speciall faith whereby you beleeue that your sinnes are all forgiuen and you iust by an extrinsecall imputation of the iustice inherent in Iesus Christ This which is the ground and soule of your Religion wee denie Your proofe is Abraham beleeued God and it was imputed vnto him to iustice Rom. 4.3 v. 16. And therefore of faith that according to grace the promise may be firme Answ This is nothing against vs nor for you for the question is of the Obiect of this faith whether it were the remission of sinnes to him that beleeued they were remitted as you interprete it From the 16. v. to the end or somthing els Reade further and you shall finde in the same Chapter that the Obiect or thing he beleeued was that God would make him the father of many Nations and that notwithstanding his owne age and the sterilitie of his wife God was able to performe this promise Of your Obiect there is not one word neither is it to be fouÌ„d any where in all the Bible The Obiect of Iustifying faith if you beleeue Scripture is the Incarnation the Passion Resurrection and other revealed Mysteries Who is he that ouercometh the world he that beleeueth that Iesus Christ is the sonne of God â— Io. 5. v. 5. Rom. 10.9 If thou confesse with thy mouth our lord Iesus and in thy hart beleeue that God hath raised him from the deade thou shalt be saued Without faith it is vnpossible to please God for Heb. 11.6 he that coÌ„meth to God must beleeue that he is and is a rewarder to them that seeke him This is the Obiect of iustifying faith and the second part you do not beleeue because it implieth a merite in the beleeuer 32. The sixt place is about communion of lay people in both kinds You would haue it a diuine precept for the lay people I admit a diuine precept for the Priests who do consecrate and denie that there is any such whereby the lay people are commanded to receaue the Sacrament in both kinds Your place is Drinke ye all of this Mat. 26.27 But this place doth not import a precept or commaund for the lay people to receaue the blood for the speach is not directed to the lay people but to the Apostles And the word all is referd to them and was verified by them This is manifest by the words of the Gospell He gaue to his Disciples and said take and eate ibid. v. 26.27.28 this is my body And taking the chalice he gaue thankes and gaue to them the same disciples saying drinke ye all of this for this is my bloode c. And S. Marke relating it saith and taking the chalice giuing thanks he gaue to them and they all dranke of it If all dranke of it theÌ„ by all the Apostles are meant onely for all men were not there neither haue all Christians drunke of it In this therefore you haue produced no diuine precept for all men in their owne persons to receaue the blood 33. The seaueÌ„th place is to prooue the Scripture to be iudge of CoÌ„trouersies aÌ„d sufficient of it selfe without helpe of TraditioÌ„ Wee hold the necessity of TraditioÌ„ too â— Tim. 3.16 The place is All scripture inspired of God is profitable to teach to argue to correct to instruct in iustice that the maÌ„ of God may be perfect instructed to euery good worke Answ This is not against vs wee graunt tath it is profitable Wee denie that it is
Catholique reader to turne his eie aside a while till they be past I will begin before Luther when our Church generally was acknowledged for true by the ChristiaÌ„ world aÌ„d her doctrine beleeued aÌ„d will goe vpward to see Whether the Confession of your men for the generall acknowledgment of our Church and doctrine by the Christian world will reach to S. Gregories time or no From thence to proceede afterwards to the Apostles with the vniuersality of the same Church and doctrine will be easie First therefore by your learned men it is confessed that Papistrie to vse Arg. 5 your word was the generall Religion of the Christian world before Luther came In so much that a Tota Occidentalis Ecclesia defendit quicquid impietatuÌ„ detestamur Caluin Resp ad Versip p. 354. Caluin affirmes all the Westerne Churches to haue defended it and b. Discessionem à toto mundo facere coacti sumus Id. Ep. 141. that his separatioÌ„ was froÌ„ all the world c. white Defence c. 37. p. 136. The Papacie or articles wherein wee refuse the Church of Rome are a leprosie c. White saith it was a leprosie breeding in the Church so vniuersally that there was no visible company of people appearing in the world free from it d. Benedict Morgestein tract de Eccl. p. 145 and he saith there further that it is ridiculous to thinke that in the tyme before Luther any had the purity of doctrine and that Luther should receaue it from them Morgestern The whole Christian world knowes that before Luther all Churches were ouer whelmed with more then Cymerian darknes e. Bancroft Censure c. 4. BaÌ„croft The Priests and all the people too were drowned in the filth of Poperie from top to toe f. Iewell serm on the 11. c. Luk. Iewell The whole world people Priests and Princes were ouer whelmed with ignorance All Schooles Priests Bysshops and Princes of the world were by oath obliged to the Pope g. Daniel Camierus ep 49. Camierê° Errour possessed not one litle part or other but Apostasie auerted the whole Body from Christ h. Brocard in c. 2. Apoc. fol. 41. cognitio Christi defuit in omnibus singulis suis membris VVhit Cont. 4. q 5. c. 3. p. 684. Brocard When the preaching of the Gospell and the first assault made vppon the Papacie was approued in Luther the knowledge of Christ was wanting in all and euery one of his members i Whittaker In tymes past no Religion but the Papisticall had place in the Churches And. k. Id. Cont. 2. q. 3. p. 467. per omnes visibiles Ecclesias grassata est That Antichristian plague hath gone thorough all partes of the world and all visible Churches Thus in generall To runne thorough the particulars were infinite They say l. Luther serm de simulacr fol 277. Altero abusu imaginum totus orbis oppletus est The whole world was filled with the abuse of images That m Calu 2. Instit c 2. §. 4. Ad vulgus etiam ipsum omnes hoc principio imbuti sunt praeditum esse hominem libero arbitrio All to the very common people were imbued with this principle that maÌ„ hath free will that n Confess Aug. c. 20. Fateri omnes necesse est de fidei iustitia fuisse altissimum silentiuÌ„ Magburg praefat Cenur 13. extincta est doctrina de fide tantùm sine operibus Calu. Resp ad Sadolet p. 125. Dogma istud de iustificatione per solam fidem quod in religione summum erat dicimus fuisse à vobis ex hominum memoria deletum the principall point of Religion iustification by faith only was blotted out of memory that o. Bucerus li dâ— concord p. 660. Hic error de reali praesentia loquitur apud totius orbis Christianos inualuit the errour so they speake of the reall presence preuailed amonge all the Christians of the world that p. Gualt in praefat Com. in ep ad Rom All the world erred in that article of the reall presence that q. Calu. 4. Instit c. 18. §. 18. Missae abominatio in calice aureo propinata omnes Reges terrae populos à summo vsque ad nouissimum sic inebriauit vt proram puppim suae salutis in hac vna statuerint the Masse made drunke all the kinges and people of the earth from the first to the last that r. Luth. Captiuit Babil fol. 68. scarce any thing was more beleeued then that the Masse was a Sacrifice that Å¿ Calu. Respons ad Sadolet p. 130 all endeuoured to merit to satisfie c. And to summe all vp in a word they confesse our Religion to haue preuailed ouer their supposed Church and Religion so farre t. Luth. Capt. Babil fol. 77. Id. in Psalm grad fol. 568 in 2. Gal. fol. 306. that the Protestant faith was abolished and extinguished That u. Magburg praefat Centur. 5. w Calu. 4. Instit c. 2. §. 2. Sub Papismo doctrina citra quam Christianismus non constat tota sepulâ—a explosa vnder the Papacie there was an extreme abolishing of the true Protestant Religion and the diuine word that vnder the Papacie the DOCTRINE without which ProtestaÌ„t Christianitie doth not subsist was ALL reiected aÌ„d buried This was the state of our Church before Luther and not for a small tyme but for nine hundred yeare yeauen from the tyme of Boniface and Gregorie the Great All the knowne Churches in the world all that tyme frequenting and beleeuing Masse confessing to Priests praying to Saincts and for the deade beleeuing iustification by workes doÌ„ne in grace aÌ„d the merit of theÌ„ satisfaction traditions religious vowes c. and the communion of the Pope was with the Christian world generally all that tyme. This you might knowe particularly froÌ„ tyme to tyme out of Ecclesiasticall Histories if you would reade theÌ„ but of histories I am not to speake now let vs goe on with the confessioÌ„ of your men for the generall acknowledgment of our ReligioÌ„ and the generall pouerty or not existencie of your supposed Church Speake Perkins During the space of nine hundred yeeres the Popish heresie hath spred it selfe ouer the whole earth Bale From Phocas who liued a. 602. till the renuing of the Gospell the doctrine of Christ was for that space amonge Idiotes and in lurking holes and after Gregorie the purity of Protestant doctrine perisshed d. Powell Confid Pap. reas p. 105. Powell I graunt that from the yeere of Christ 605. the professant company of Poperie hath bene very visible and conspicuous e. Fulke Ans Countâ— Cath. p 36. Fulke The Religion of the Papists came in and preuailed in the yeare of our lord 607. aÌ„d so vniuersally that the reuelation of Antichrist with the Churches flight into the wildernes was a. 607. f. Hutter de sacrif Missat p 377. Libenter concedo Idolomaniam pontificiam cuius
Iesus Christ the author of this worke One out of S. Chrysostome I will put downe who saith thus No man will denie that Christ hath founded all the Churches in the world and hence wee demonstrate his power S. Chrys Quod Christus sit Deus to 5. aÌ„d shewe him to be God For it is not in the power of a meere man to lay hands on the whole world by sea and land in so short a tyme and to set at libertie mankinde preuented which such absurd behauiour and entangled in so greate euiles and not Romans onelie but Persians allso and all kinde of Barbarians Moreouer that he did this vsing no weapons making no expences raising no armies fighting no battails but by eleuen at first of no reputation base rude vnlearned poore naked men he hath persuaded so many tribes of men and not the presente onelie but those allso which are to come what that he hath ouerthrowne countrie lawes abolished inueterate customes pulled vp plants so long rooted and for them planted other of his owne he hath withdrawne vs from those things wheruÌ„to wee were inclined and induced vs vnto those which are hard and troublesome And whilst he was doing these things his were molested by all and him selfe did suffer a most ignominious kind of death the crosse No man will denie that he was crucified and by the Iewes that he suffered infinite things from them that dailie the Gospell doth increase and florish not heere onelie but euen amoÌ„g the Persians too eauen whilst by them it is opposed For there are many swarmes of Martyrs from thence and those who were there more sauage then woolues hauing heard the Gospell are become milder then sheepe and discourse now of immortalitie and of the resurrection and of vnexplicable good things Neither haue these noble enterprises bene in citties onelie but they haue gone into villages and Cuntreies aÌ„d IlaÌ„ds ports aÌ„d bayes And not priuate men and princes onelie but kings them selues which weare the crownes doe with a notable and great faith submitte them selues to him that was crucified Neither did these things vnwittinglie come to passe but were foretold long before and least there should be any suspicion at all in this wee haue the bookes froÌ„ the Iewes which nailed him to the Crosse Certainely these things vndeniable and subiect to mens eies prooue a Deitie in the worker and the correspondence to the predictioÌ„s erecte our mindes to the acknowledgment of a prouidence that preconceaued and ordained the worke long before 47. It is straÌ„g to see the vanitie of some who make triall to breake thorough this discourse as being industrious to finde a way to scape but they are penned in on euery side aÌ„d caÌ„not get away Some tymes they thinke of attributiÌ„g the whole busines to the Deuil but presently their thought is checkt wheÌ„ they consider froÌ„ what aÌ„d whereuÌ„to this MotioÌ„ is He that knowes what is meant by the world Deuil doth conceaue a spirit bent to euil and opposite vnto good In motu terminus quo terminus ad quem mobile effâ—ciens Now this Motion to iudge of the whole by that part which is euident is a Reformation and an amendement of the world for it is a withdrawing of it from vices which are manifestlie against reason aÌ„d a drawing of it vnto vertues manifestly consonant vnto reason The Christian Rule discouers to vs more cleerely whatsoeuer nature knowes either in good or ill proposing the good to be followed the bad to be eschued It is further euident that this is against the inclination of the Deuil wherefore it is likewise euident that this Motion is not from him Our Rule discouers the Deuil allso and doth inuite all to detest him whereas he hath an infinite ambition of honour whereby it is likewise euident that it is not from him Next they care not if they attribute it to an Intelligence and good Spirit seducing vs Where againe they find them selues deceaued when they consider that such a Spirit being good doth not lie or deceaue as they imagine this hath donne for if he lie or deceaue it is thereby manifest he is not good If he be good a man were out of danger that were directed by him by an Angel a good Angel telling truth Thirdly they would attribute it to the Starrs and straight are coÌ„founded when they consider that the consent is intellectuall of worlds in an obscure Creede not demonstrable by all the power nature hath For example that in the Deitie are three Persons consubstantiall this principle of our Religion is not impressed into mans vnderstanding by the Starrs Neither can the Starrs make it euident with all their light They haue not yet made euident what kind of things themselues are what their Orbes what their influence what their matter forme their subsistence macula solares Martis reuolutio whether they be corruptible or incorruptible whether the Planets be fixed in orbes or moued in a liquid substance Of the truth of these things none euer haue beene so assured from the Starrs that they would die for it for the truth of our Creede many men of great learning haue giuen their liues Neither can the starrs raise a man that is deade those who planted our Religion haue donne it aÌ„d haue donne it with a word whereas if a man expected such a thing from the Starrs It containeth 49000. of our yeeres he must staie till the greate yeere be past for the same dispositioÌ„ of the heaueÌ„ aÌ„d theÌ„ will be as weere it as he is now Variasse debuerat error Ecclesiarum caeterum quod apud multos vnum in venitur non est erratuÌ„ sed traditum Tertull. praeser c. 28. Fourthly they would giue the worke away to chance But see their errour when they consider how long before it was foretould and how oft Againe chauÌ„ce is some times one sometimes other this is coÌ„stantly the same in a world of men Fiftly they question the miracles wee speake of But in vaine for they were donne in publique in the sight of many of all sortes and being diuulged at that tyme by the Euangelists the time place and other circumstances put downe and examined by seuere aduersaries both Iewes and Gentiles not any one of them could euer be disprooued So that he who will now question them hath against him the endeuours of the learned Iewes and Gentiles them liuing who doing all they could were not able to discredit any of them as appeareth still by their Bookes and allso by the issue aÌ„d euent He hath allso against him all the Christians of those tymes the rather to be credited because an infinite companie of them together with the Apostles gaue their liues for the doctrine confirmed vnto them by these meanes The Gospells as I said where diuulged and therein were put downe the miracles donne publikely the time place and other circumstances were there assigned On the one side the Iewes studied in the
the Church and the onelie meanes which men haue vnder heauē to be informed of the truth is by recourse vnto it vnto the Church and to the Spiritte in her 6. I will descend vnto particulars and make it more manifest A man beleeuing or knowing that there is a God would gladlie heare what he hath imparted to men of the truth and therfore inquires for Gods word he would esteeme himselfe happie if he could be certainlie directed to it and not cozened with other things in steed of it with forged Gospells and Epistles To this mā the Church doth giue satisfaction by reaching him the Bible and assuring him that she knowes it to be Gods word by the assistance and testimonie of the diuine Spiritte which protectes her from errour in beleefe and this promise she had from Iesus Christ who by miracles by prophecies and other sufficient meanes prooued himselfe to be the Sonne of God You on the otherside who denie this certaintie and assistance can giue him no satisfactiō in the world Next opening this booke he finds it hard as containing many obscure passages about the Trinitie the Incarnation the death of Christ his resurrection the sacrament of his bodie and blood c. to this the Church answears him directlie and tells him the sense of God assuring him as before that she by the assistance of the diuine Spiritte left vnto her doth know is to be so You leaue him without satisfaction to the dishonour of Iesus Christ whose wisedome you call in question withall whilst you denie that he prouided meanes for men to be informed of his doctrine and of the waie to serue God 7. You are more sensible peraduenture in examples neerer home though these which I haue put cōcearne euerie man very neerelie I therefore put you in particular in the busines and on the other side put my selfe The question betwixt you and me is whether the visible Church be iudge of controuersies and infallible or be not what meanes to end it your witte why rather then mine or why either since the matter is diuine The Spiritte why in you rather then in me especiallie since I am in the communion of the Church and you not as I haue allreadie prooued or rather whie the Spiritte in either rather then the Spiritte in the Church I am a part that is the whole I am to learne and by Gods grace haue the Spirite to be taught and directed in the Church are my Pastors and I must heare them by the commaund of my Sauiour why then shall I not beleeue that when the voice of them all is one it is the voice of my Sauiour Iesus Christ Other things allso you question as whether it be in the hart onelie to beleeue or in the mouth allso to teach and to professe whether the promise be executed inuisiblie onelie and in the hart of the predestinate and no where els or visiblie also by publique proposition and profession of the truth These and infinite other controuersies wee haue with you ād with your fellowes now adayes and what meanes are there to finde the truth if you say your witte or the Spiritte I replie as before and am certaine that in fine no thing can be brought but the Spiritte nor this pretended howsoeuer but existent by Gods promise in the Church * Seeing the controuersies in our time are growen in number so many and in nature so intricate that fewe haue time and leasure fewer strength of vnderstanding to examine thē what remaineth for men desirous of satisfaction in things of such consequence but diligently to search out which amōgst all the Societies of men in the world is that blessed company of holy ones that househould of faith that spouse of Christ and Church of the liuing God which is the pillar and ground of truth that so they may embrace her communion follow her directions and rest in her iudgment Thus Field in his Epist to the Byssh of Cant. before his Church But if you keepe your eie long vppon this man you shall see him daunce the round too with his fellowes 8. Thirdlie this assistance doth efficaciously follow out of Gods eternall ordinance and decree about the Church which ordinance and decree he hath reuealed in holie writte All powerfull and wise persones intending Arg. 3 resolutelie an End do ordaine likewise efficaciouse meanes to compasse and effect it Since therfore allmightie God hath intended resolutelie to raise a Church out of all Nations as I haue declared in the former booke ◠Book 1. Chapt. ād since the meanes to doe this is infallible propositiō of the truth it followeth that he hath ordained infallible propositiō there of which proposition being not by externes but by the Church it remaines that the Church-propositiō is infallible Your āsweare is that the propositiō made to the elect is infallible but not the proposition made to the rest I replie that the proposition which I speake of that is the exteriour proposition is one and the same in it selfe and made to all but the elect make good vse of it others do not To put this in example for vnderstanding of it you knowe that our Sauiour did preach openlie and his doctrine was instruction for the elect and was infallible but reprobates did heare it allso Good and bad heard the Apostles preach and their doctrine was the same all men cast their eies on the Scripture and the decrees of Generall Councells are proposed vnto all These all are meanes ordained by allmightie God for the instruction of his elect and therfore by his perpetuall watch are kept infallible though reprobates heare and see the same but make not of them such vse as they ought 9. But to speake of the elect particularly since you desire it I demaund of you whether God doth prouide exteriour proposition of diuine faith and pure and solide truth for them or no if you graunt he doth I haue that which I intend for noe man is so mad as to thinke he doth imploie infideles and not his Church in this busines ād if he doth imploy the Church in it he keepes her from erring in the proposition that so the true doctrine may be conuaied into the harts of his electe if you denie that he doth prouide and dispose things so that the true doctrine be exteriorlie proposed vnto his elect how then doe they beleeue you must studie hard to resolue the question Rom. 10.14 for the Apostle thought it could not be And why do you trouble your selues to preach and write bookes perhappes you haue some other end but why did almightie God sēd prophettes into the world ād afterwards his owne sōne why did our Sauiour sende Apostles to teach Nations if this were not necessarie for the instruction of Gods elect why did God ordaine pastors and teachers and promise that his words should neuer out of their mouthes Ephes 4. Isay 59. why were the Gospells and the Epistles written and
one S. Cyrill heere doth speake of the other S. August tract 96. in Ioan. To helpe the ruder to the vnderstanding of this difference in the knowledge of the same things Suppose a man were borne and bred in a caue vnder groūd and there taught that aboue there be heauens sunne and starrs And afterwards brought out in a cleere night to behold the beautie of the firmament with the heauens immensitie In the day to see the Sunne illustrating all the world with his light This later knowledge of these things is cleere and perfect if you compare it with the former which he before at his being vnder ground where he saw no greater light then a poore candle had of them So is the Churches knowledge heere Heere belowe she is instrusted that in God there are three persons the Father the Sonne and the Holy Ghost and makes an vnperfect obscure conceipt of it but when she getts vp thither she shall behold God cleerely as he is in himself And so all the rest of the Mysteries which now she doth beleeue 37. The fourth waie is to saie that the place is to be limited to those truthes which are necessarie for the commō people But this holds not for what shall become of the learned who shall compound differences in religion condemne Heresies and repaire the faults of Schisme which teare the Church in peeces if the Spirits assistance doth it not In vaine doe you limit the words of God you are a man you are not God you cannot rule him ād pare of what you please from his promise his words import all not onelie whatsoeuer is necessarie for common people but all whatsoeuer he hath reuealed they are extended as farre as the necessities of the Church do require Againe it is one thing to determine how far this assistance is affoorded to this or that Christian in particular which liues in a Catholique countrie and in peace another thing it is to define how farre it is affoorded vnto the whole bodie of the Church 38. The last waie is to saie that this promise was to be performed onelie in the inuisible Church by teaching them priuatelie This is false For the Church whereūto this promise was made was the visible Church and God made it to no other The Apostles were visible And how could it be otherwise whē their noise went ouer all the world The companie of Christians in communion with them were visible Their Successors the Pastors of the Church were visible Their office of preaching of ministring the Sacramentes and gouerning Gods people did manifest their persons to the flocke The guifte of tongues of interpretation of working miracles and the like made the men and so the Church visible The predestinate needed visible instruction Rom. 10.14 for how should they beleeue vnles they heare saith the Apostle in this case and how should they heare without a preacher and a preacher you knowe is visible you see him you heare him you can point at him Now preachers deliuer not infalliblie such doctrine as the predestinate are to beleeue without assistance and therefore for the predestinate peoples sake it was all together necessarie to assist the Church in visible actes in preaching in deliuering true doctrine which is to assist the visible Church In fine the office of the Apostles and Pastors whose actes are in teaching and directing others and consequentlie visible actes could not be rightlie performed without Assistance which you confesse and our Sauiour intending the perfomance of those actes that so his Church beīg called by his word deliuered with the mouthes of mē might be gathered out of all Nations did leaue them that is the Apostles and their Successors to this end diuine Assistance and said the Paraclete whom the Father will send in my name he shall teach you all things Iohn 14. v 〈◊〉 16 〈◊〉 13. and suggest vnto you all he shall teach you all truth 39. The third place I am to inculcate for this Assistance containes the Testimonie of the vndeniable Christian Church acknowledging the receipt of it For if wee produce euidēce for the promise and this by couenāt and for the actuall sending and finallie for the receipt of this Assistance by such as confessedlie might doe it in the name of the whole Church the cause is wonne To proceed therfore to this part you will confesse that the Apostles were the true Church and that if they receaued this Assistance the Church receaued it and as they vnderstood the promise and beleeued it so wee are to vnderstād and to beleeue it Now it is most certaine that they receaued this Assistance and did not onelie beleeue that according to the promise of our Sauiour they had it infalliblie when they were to determine matters of Religion but they did further declare vnto Christians this Assistance and direction which they had ēioyed and did puhlishe it to be beleeued by the Church For the decree which after much dispute and inquisition they made in their generall meeting at Ierusalem they begin thus It hath seemed good to the holie Ghost and to vs. Acts 15. v. ◠affirming by these words plainlie and proposing allso to Christians to beleeue their publique act and decree to be the act and decree of the holie Ghost And if it were his allso then he with them made it assisting and directing them in the doing as our Sauiour had promised he should doe And herein the Apostles gaue example to their Successors to vnderstand our Sauiours promise so and to beleeue and doe so as they haue vnderstood it and beleeued and done The place is cleere The thing is vndeniable 40. As these Masters of Christianitie had vnderstood beleeued done assuring themselues and others of diuine assistance in their common definition and decree by reason of our Sauiours promise without any more adoe he being God and therfore meaning as he said and as good as his promise so did their successors vnderstand beleeue and doe in regard the promise was made foreuer And therfore they allso beleeued and assured others of diuine assistance in their common definition and decree by reason of the same promise This the pastors assembled in generall Councells haue done euer since and the Christian people in communion with these Councells haue beleeued it Those Christians which liued in the first age did beleeue that the Apostles had by vertue of our Sauiours promise diuine assistāce to propose and spred the Gospell and to teach rightlie the word of God and that they were therfore to be beleeued in all which by generall consent they did propose or wherein they did all agree so that the Predestinate ād all others might securelie beleeue as they taught and goe on towards heauen that way which they pointed out The Church in the second age did beleeue that the Church in the first age had the Assistance of the diuine spirit by vertue of the promise of Iesus Christ and therevppon beleeued allso that
manners all most infinite And further yet there is and hath ben controuersie about the rule it self as which it is how much is Scripture which booke which chapter which verse is or is not holy Scripture what is the meaning of this or that verse which controuersies must be decided otherwise there will neuer be vnitie and consent about the diuine Word rule and lawe Now these things cannot be determined without Diuine Assistance as I argued before and for the Vnitie in Religion and the CommunioÌ„ and Perpetuitie power to determine them is necessarie wherefore since our Sauiours Prouidence was not deficient it followes that there is and in the Church such power and Assistance 47. Fourthlie if the holie ministerie in the Church of God be established as a rule of mens faith to the end they be not in their faith wauering and borne about with euery winde of newe doctrine to the circumuention of errour then is it by Gods assistance and perpetuall watch and direction infallible but the sacred ministerie of the Church of God is thus established by Iesus Christ which I proue by the testimonie of S. Paule before alleadged he Christ Ephes 4. v. 11. c. gaue some Apostles aÌ„d other some Pastors and Doctors to the consummation of the Saints vnto the worke of the ministerie vnto the edifying of the bodie of Christ vntill wee meete all into the vnitie of faith and knowledge of the sonne of God into the measure of the age of the fullnes of Christ that now wee be not children wauering and caried about with euerie wind of doctrine in the wickednes of men in craftines to the circumuention of errour 47. Fiftly since you distinguish the doctrine of faith into fundamentall and not fundamentall it followes that the Apostles had put into their mouthes for instruction of Gods people doctrine allso not fundameÌ„tall Iohn 15. v. 15. all thinges whatsoeuer I hard of my father I haue notified vnto you said our Sauiour to the Apostles Whence I inferre also that that doctrine shall neuer out of their mouthes or the mouthes of their successors while the world endures and proue it by Gods couenant of assistance Isay 5â— my spiritte that is in thee and my wordes that I haue put in thy mouth shall not depart out of thy mouth aÌ„d out of the mouth of thy seede aÌ„d out of the mouth of the seede of thy seede saith our lord from this present and for euer And by the promise of our blessed Sauiour Isay 14. v. 26. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the Paraclete the holy Ghost whome the Father will send in my name he shall teach you all thinges and suggest vnto you all thinges whatsoeuer I shall say to you 49. That you may the better vnderstand this peece of diuinitie which doth oft occurre I will spend a litle more tyme in it to let you know first that you and the rest of your fellowes in this matter doe crosse and contradict your owne selues For touching other pointes pointes of religioÌ„ and gods word which you saie are not fundamentall Further Confirmation of the former arguments either there is certaine knowledge to be had of them or there is not make choise of which you please If you be not certaine you must confesse you doubt of the truth of such pointes and of the meaning of Gods word in all places by vs alleadged which are not fundamentall and that you confidentlie auouch in the pulpitte and maintaine against vs in the matters of reall presence iustificatioÌ„ merit workes of Supererogation sacrifice inuocation of Sainctes c. that which you doubt whether it be as you saie or noe If you be certaine either you meane that the Spiritte doth assist and assure you in more then fundamentalles which indeed is your ordinarie pulpite bragge where none dispute with you and consequentlie you must graunt against your distinction that the assistance of the Spiritte is extended further then to your pretended fundamentalles or you meane that you are not assured by the Spiritte but onelie by your witte which witt you oppose to the witte and iudgment of all the Church in diuine matters And if it be thus you contradict you selues because at home you say you resolue it not into your owne witte but into the Spirit 50. You answeare that by illation you conclude against vs but who knowes not that the difficultie is about the sense of the place from whence you offer to conclude against vs and that first you must be certaine of this sense before you can extract any thing out of it by good consequeÌ„ce I demaund therfore whether you be certaine of the sense or noe if you be not you are not certaine of the conclusion which you draw there hence as euery logitian can tell if you be then I demaund how since mans witte in diuine matters may mistake and this you confesse assistance of the Spiritte you haue not or if you pretend to haue it then confesse that in your owne iudgment it is extended in Gods promise to more then fundamentalles 51. Secondlie you contradict the whole Church aÌ„d her spiritte in this foolish affirmatioÌ„ of the Churches errour in pointes not fuÌ„damentall as you call them A second Confirmation And this I proue because all ChristiaÌ„s that euer were in the coÌ„munion of the Church hetherto did submitte their iudgmeÌ„t to the generall iudgmeÌ„t of the Church in the age before them beleeuing all whatsoeuer was theÌ„ generallie aÌ„d without exception beleeued whether the point were one of those which you call fundamentall or were not one of them in somuch that you are not able to name any one point held generallie without exception in any former age to be matter of faith though it were not one of your fundamentalles which point was reiected by the Church generallie in any ensuing age And to giue all the scope in this you can desire take all the tyme from the comming of the assisting Spiritt which was the whitsontide next after our Sauiours ascension to this present yeare But be sure you obserue diligentlie what I haue said in this argument and doe not speake of thinges which are not to this purpose either because they were not generallie and without exception esteemed matters of faith by the Church Catholique or because the contradiction tradition was not the act of the Church but of some priuate man either mistakeÌ„ by ignoraÌ„ce the Church not approuing his assertion or pertinaciously a uouching it â—n Hereticke and so without and none of vs. 3. Confirmation 52. The truth of that which I haue said is further yet manifest in this that all whosoeuer were generallie condemned for Heretiques in any former age by the Church were esteemed so by the Church in following tymes whether their Heresies were in matters you call fundamentall or not as he may see who will runne ouer the Heresies of former tymes whence it followes elderlie that
is your ignorance in the manner 67. Knowe therefore secondlie that two waies a mā may beleeue all which the Church teacheth to be true One waie is by acknowledging each point of her doctrine in particular because the Spirit of God in and by her doth auouch it and this faith is vnfoulded An other is by acknowledging in generall and as it were in grosse all to be true which the Church doth teach not descending into the particular consideration of each and this is implicite or infolded faith because in it are infolded all the particulars which the Church doth teach 68. By this distinction of vnfoulded and infoulded faith you now know my meaning and it is this That the faith of all Catholikes both learned ād vnlerned late ād aūciēt is not equallie vnfoulded but yet is all one because that is infolded in ones faith which is vnfoulded with an other And thus a man who reades the Scripture and still doth increase in diuine knowledge learning dailie more and more is of the same religion and the same faith all the while Thus are the people ād their pastors of the same religion though the pastors knowe and beleeue more in particular then the clownes euer heard of Thus was S. Augustine and his mother Monica of one religion though she knewe not all the deuinitie or poīts of faith or Scripture in particular which he knewe Thus were the Corinthians and S. Paul thus are wee and the old Fathers the Fathers and the Apostles of the same religiō and thus is the later Church and the primitiue vnited in faith Because nothing is generallie beleeued now which was not then generallie beleeued though now something be more vnfolded in the generall beleefe of the communitie I saie nothing of some eminent men of those tymes then was by the multitude beleeued in particular or vnfolded then and something might haue bene then vnfolded which is not so commonlie knowne at this tyme. And no doubt but the Apostles knewe more in particular then mē doe nowe 69. By the same doctrine you may vnderstād howe the Catholiques in the whole body frō the Apostles to this daie though infinite haue bene all of one religion and the same with vs notwithstāding that each clowne knewe not all in particular which the learned did yea notwithstāding many learned knewe not all in particular And the reason is because in this principle I beleeue as the Church and followe her iudgment in matter of faith each had ALL whether he were learned or vnlearned and euerie Catholique did this and he who did it not was no Catholique 70. You thinke peraduenture that no two are exactlie of the same religiō vnles their faith be equallie distinct in obiect and vnfolded equallie which conceipt if it were true none were of the same religion with the Apostles in their tyme nor with the holie Fathers in theirs who beleeued not distinctlie and in particular as many points as they did which is a grosse errour in Christianitie and makes as many religions allmost as men Are you in your parish all of one religion or not if you are then by your rule who cannot abide implicite faith each old wife and yonge girle knowes as much in particular in the Bible and Deuinitie as your selfe or if they doe not I praie you tell me how they be exactlie of the same religion with you I knowe you will runne to fundamentalls but the shift will not serue because agreement in fundamentalls in your sense doth not suffize to the exact agreement in religion for wee and you be not of one religiō as all the world knowes and yet you saie that wee disagree not in fundamētalls and indeede there are infinite waies to erre against Faith otherwise he that did obstinatelie denie all the Bible and euerie verse of it excepting those onelie wherin is one of your fundamentalls which fundamētalls as you recon them are verie fewe and contained in the Creede with baptisme and the supper he I saie who did obstinatelie this were no Heretique but a man of your religion exactlie howsoeuer he be detested by the Christian world 71. Hauing declared the reason whie Catholiques are all of one religion by reason of their common vnion in one vniuersall principle containing their particular consent in the rest as occasion doth require to which generall principle they are all moued by the words and promise of Iesus Christ it is not amisse now to looke about for the originall cause why Heretiques are not all of one religion since they resolue all or pretend to resolue their faith into the Scripture or the Spirit I neede not goe farre to finde it out for it is knowne by the definition of an Heretique He is a man who makes his owne election by his priuate iudgment in matter of religion And thence it is that hauing cast of Church authoritie ād putt his owne witt in place to iudge each takes where and what he likes and their iudgments being diuers they take diuers things and expound diuerslie 74. Neither doth the scripture serue the turne in this case first because there is disagreement which is Scripture which cause must be first determined by some iudge and this iudge to each Heretick is his owne witt Secōdlie it is obscure ād therefore there is infinite varietie in guessing at the meaning of it as wee see by the experience of many hundred yeares and in this case likewise each Heretique doth adore his owne iudgment As for the spirit that of God is not among Heretiques but in the Church as I haue prooued since therfore they are not the Church and their Spirit opposite it followes that it is another and that erroneous And by the mulplicitie of iudgments and contradictions among them selues it appeares euidentlie that they are many and no meruaile since each crowcheth vnto his owne since each hath his Maozim within himselfe This therfore is the reason whie Arians Nestorians Lutherans c. though they be all against the Catholique be not of one religion among them selues 73. Neither would the consequence be good if you should argue thus Luther receaues the letter of Scripture and Caluin receaues the letter of Scripture therefore Luther and Caluin are of one Religion it doth not hold I say since they receaue not the same sense nor are vnited in any one common meane to receaue it And were the argument good it would prooue Caluinists and Arians to be of the same Religion since each receaue the letter 74. Hence it comes allso that all Heretiques cannot haue one definition but that euery one is to be defined according to the points he doth hold in particular because of his difference from others in the sense though perhaps he admitte the letter with others And in taking this sense he is not bounded by any authoritie common to him and to other Heretiques but onelie by his owne will and conceit Since therefore there is difference amonge Heretiques and that this
founde to hold with one and the same meaning and consent that without all scruple aÌ„d doubt must be the true and Catholique doctrine of the Church Whosoeuer beleeue that Christ came in our flesh and that he arose from death to life in the same flesh in which he was borne and suffered S. Aug. de Vnit. Eccl. c. 4. and that he is the sonne of God God with God and one with the Father and the one vnchangeable word of the Father by which all things are made but do so disagree with his body which is the Church that they hold not communion with the whole as farre as euer it is spred about the world but are found separate in some part or corner it is manifest that they are not in the Catholique Church Prosp de promiss praedic Dei par 4. c. 5. The Apostles Peeter and Paul deliuering in the cittie of Rome to posterity the doctrine of our Lord peaceable and one haue consecrated the Church of the Gentiles with their blood and memories according to the passioÌ„ of our Lord. A ChristiaÌ„ coÌ„municating with this generall Church is a Catholique S. Cypri de Vnit. Eccl. He that is separated froÌ„ it is an Heretique There is one heade aÌ„d one origeÌ„ aÌ„d one mother by the issue of her fecuÌ„ditie copious by her increase wee are borne wee are nourished with her milke with her spirit wee are animated The Spouse of Christ cannot be defiled with adultery shee is pure and honest She knoweth one house and with chast bashfullnes keepeth the sanctity of one bed This Church preserueth vs in God this aduanceth to the kingdome the children she hath brought foorth VVhosoeuer deuided from this Church cleaueth to the adultresse he is separated from the promises of the Church He cannot haue God his Father who hath not the Church to his mother In the Church S. Iren. l. 9 adu Haereâ— c. 40. God hath constituted Apostles Prophets Doctors and all the rest of the operation of the Spirit of which those are not partakers who repaire not vnto the Church VVhere the Church is THERE IS THE SPIRIT of God and where the Spirit of God is there is the Church and all grace Idem l. â— c. 4â— VVee must obay those Priests that are in the Church those that haue Succession from the Apostles who tegeather with Episcopall power haue according to the good pleasure of the Father receaued the certaine guift of truth And all the rest who depart from the originall Succession wheresoeuer they be assembled to haue suspected either as Heretiques or Schismatiques or Hypocrites â—actant â— 4. 〈◊〉 â—nstitut c. â—lt and all these doe fall from the truth It is onely the Catholique Church that hath the true worship and seruice of God This is the wellspring of truth the dwelling place of faith the temple of God into which whosoeuer entreth not and from which whosoeuer departeth is without all hope of life 〈◊〉 Aug. de â—de ad â—et c. 39. and eternall Saluation Hold for most certaine and vndoubted that no Heretique nor Schismatique though baptized in the name of the father and of the sonne and of the holy Ghost though he giue almes neuer so largely yea though he shed his blood for the name of Christ can possiblie be saued vnles he be reconciled vnto the Catholique Church 70. I omit many other graue speaches of holie Fathers to this effect of consenting with the Church in faith and submitting our iudgment thereunto And of S. Augustine particularlie whom I do alleage more willinglie because you preteÌ„d to honour him as where he saith for his part he would not beleeue the Gospell 〈◊〉 Aug. coÌ„t Ep. fund c. â— vnles the authoritie of the Church moued him That he was held in the Church by the consent of people â— c. 4. and Nations by an authoritie begotten with miracles nourished with hope increased by antiquitie And that it is a point of most insolent madnes to dispute whether that be to be obserued which is frequented by the whole Church through the world Ep. 118. c. â— Moreouer what S. Augustine said of S. Cyprian he might haue said of any other father to wit that he would haue yelded to the authority of the Church Neither would the Fathers hold communion with any who did oppose themselues to the definitions of generall Councells or to the doctrine of the Church but held them for Heretiques 81. And thus much for this point wherein I haue not alleaged the foresaid authorities to moue you for I knowe that in your * Vide I. Rain Concl. 2. fine conscience you will not yeeld to the Fathers neither a part nor all together in Generall Councell nor stoope to their Spirit nor beleeue their Creede But I haue done it to shewe you that I haue learned of them the doctrine which I tould you and that by their exaÌ„ple I do submit my vnderstaÌ„ding to the Church in all coÌ„trouersies and securelie rest in her iudgmeÌ„t For she with infinite eies doth allwayes diligentlie looke on Gods word aÌ„d with infinite care aÌ„d industrie attends vnto the truth Good wits though learned may mistake each scholler is not a SaiÌ„t the guifts of the Spirit are deuided amoÌ„g meÌ„ But all the treasure of the spirit all the Saints aÌ„d Predestinate the highest Authoritie aÌ„d all meanes possible for mortall men to learne the truth are in the Church There the Angells of the Gospell deliuer the will of the diuine Maiestie there the Secretaries of heauen do register Gods words and there Iesus Christ our Master doth teach and bringe vp his Elect and prepare them for his high Schoole of deuinitie wherein the Cherubins and Seraphins haue their order From * You say that wee obtrude vnto you doctrine for diuine which is not such For the nouice in Controuersie at some parts of the Bible Inuocation of Saincts Purgatorie wee denie that wee propose any thing for diuine and reuealed which is not indeede diuine and reuealed This is therefore a Controuersie betwixt vs. What way is there to know the truth in this controuersie The Spirit where In the Church Againe you say wee interprete the Scriptures wrong wee denie it what Iudge The spiritte of truth where In the Schoole of Iesus Christ VVhich is this Schoole The Church VVhich is the Church That which is in communion with Vrbanus 8. Reflect well on this discourse and make the like on all occasioÌ„s in any CoÌ„trouersie of faith whatsoeuer Is it a controuersie you speake of or is it agreed on both sides If a Controuersie and in Religion the truth may be knowne The question then comes Who it to Iudge And the Answer is The spirit In Whom in The Church But you will aske why must wee stand to the Iudgment of the Spirit in the Church rather then to the iudgment of the Spirit in N. N. as in Iohn Caluin for example I answere because wee knowe
all did which you will neuer prooue as long as the Bible is extant If you reade Exodus in the two and thitieth chapter you shall finde that when Moyses had saide if any man be our Lords let him ioyne to me there gathered vnto him all the Sonnes of Leuie Exod. 32.26 And these were no small company as you may gather out of the booke of Numbers Num. 3. v. 39. Next you say Elias did complaine that he was left alone This makes a shewe and is repeted ouer and ouer in your books and your pulpittes The truth is that there were at the same tyme diuers in Israel where this Prophet was 3. Kings 19. v. 18. Rom. 11.4 which bowed not before Baal of which number God said to Elias he would reserue seauen thousand And at the same tyme allso in the kingdome of Iuda there was publique profession of the true religion at Ierusalem Wherefore you cannot prooue by this place that the Church failed and was not visible on the earth if wee would graunt you as you haue seene wee neede not that it was not visible in the kingdome of Israel at that tyme. Neither was it necessarie to the visibilitie of it that it should be still visible in both kingdomes one of thē onelie doth suffice for this purpose in case all in the other had forsaken God Let vs now come to the Catholique and Christian Church 86. In the second argument you taxe the Apostles 1. Rainold◠and first accuse S. Peeter of false doctrine because he was reprehended by S. Paul Then further you condemne the Apostles all of errour against faith in not beleeuīg the resurrection To that of S. Peeter which old Heretiques obiected it was answeared fourteene hundred yeers agoe that it was a fault of conuersation which he was taxed for not of doctrine The fault is set downe by S. Paul in these words Gal. 2.12 for before certaine came frō Iames he Peeter did eate with the Gentiles but when they were come he withdrewe and separated himselfe fearing them that were of the circumcision This cariage of S. Peeter S. Paul did repre-to Iudaize his making others by his example hend and was in this But here is no false doctrine maintained ād published by him much lesse by the Apostles all taught and generallie by the Church beleeued whereof wee speake now In the conuersatiō of the Popes which you taxe by this occasion there may haue bene faults allso for they were men but from them in generall Councells there hath come no false doctrine nor euer will 87. The second parr of your obiection hath no difficultie because wee knowe that the Apostles did learne the particulars of faith by degrees as you may obserue easilie in the Gospell ād their slownes to beleeue the point mentioned but not any errour maintained by them for Christian doctrine was reprehended Neither was the all-teaching Spirit as yet come our Sauiour not being ascended who therefore did instruct thē in the matter his owne selfe Now the thinge that wee defend is not that the Apostles beleeued all in particular from the first tyme they were called or that in conuersation nothing euer hapned amisse in any one of them but that after the comming of the holie Ghost the Catholique Church did neuer beleeue or teach errour in matter of faith which I would haue you to read ouer and ouer that you mistake not the matter but argue to the purpose 88. A third argument which I thought good to put in this place touches the resolution of our faith into the Church which resolution seemes not firme because it is made into authoritie not diuine To this I answeare that the authoritie of the Church alone if you consider it apart not adding thereunto the authoritie of the Assisting Spirit is greater then any other authoritie in the world that is distinct from the diuine authoritie And this by reason of an infinite multitude of learned and holy men which are in it of infinite miracles which doe giue testimonie of a greatnes which nature wonders at of the strange vnion of worlds of people in one obscure faith with a constancie which neither flattery nor feare can shake which vnion doth acknowledge no cause in nature since nature inclines not so constantlie to communion ād vniforme iudgment in things not found in nature as God incarnate the sonne in substance and power all one with his Father ād yet distinct in person and the like The authoritie I say of the Church by reason of these and such other motiues is the greatest of all authorities among men in so much that no other is any way equall to it and therfore none able to drawe a wise man from it 89. Yet this alone is not the thing wherevnto wee do make the last resolution of our faith But wee make it into the testimonie of allmightie God in the Church This testimonie doth originallie moue our faith The sunne is allwayes visible in it selfe but cannot be seene of vs vnles it be in the Orbe aboue our hemisphere and when it is risen the eleuation doth not principallie moue our eie but the sunne in that eleuation doth moue it to see both sunne and heauen and all other things which the light comes vppon So Gods eternall word of it selfe is euer apt to moue and to be seene though wee cannot discouer it with the eie of faith vnles it be exposed or proposed to vs in the firmament of the Church or some other way equiualent But if it be so applied our faith discerns the word and the Church proposing it and all other things that are reuealed Wherein the Church-proposition doth concurre instrumentallie with subordination to the Word of God and of them both in seuerall kinds our faith depends 90. Wee resolue therefore into authoritie truely diuine into the diuine Spirit teaching in the Church Or if you will haue a longer way which in effect is all one wee do resolue into the present Church assisted with the Spirit This present Church doth resolue into the Church in the former age assisted by the Spirit that againe into a former age ād so to the Apostles they resolue into Christ Where you finde the like as before that is the eternall and increated word mouing by way of humane speach and the Apostles faith depending though diuerslie on both at once that is on the eternall word as on the originall motiue and on the word of his mouth as on the Application 91. If you would haue yet another waie take the motiues of faith all together or the collection of them as applications and the prime veriry as formall obiect and you haue all that you iustlie can desire In the collectiō of motiues I doe include the whole Church these sixteene hundred yeares and the Apostles and Iesus Christ as he appeared and taught and all the miracles done in cōfirmation of the Christian Catholique faith the conuersion of the world from bad
to good which caÌ„ be from no bad cause the prophecies of the old and newe Testament and whatsoeuer els learned men vse to bringe to this purpose And taking in this collection all that which is distinct from the increated authoritie of allmightie God I call it the condition circumstance or application of the formall obiect which formall obiect is the diuine veritie reuealing Further I must not goe because the diuine veritie is infinite and therfore able to moue any vnderstanding and the circumstances are beyond all exceptioÌ„ to warrant the prudeÌ„ce of my choise I haue vsed some Schoole termes in this answeare but you must pardon me for it is a Schoole point as you knowe and fit for Schollers onelie 92. A fourth exception is that you seeke the will of God more sincerely and therefore enioy the assistance which wee doe not because wee relie onely on men This argument is allreadie answeared in effect wee depend on men proposing and as instrumentall or ministeriall causes vnder Iesus Christ the greate Pastor And sure the Apostles on whome the primitiue Church depended were men allso But principallie wee depend on Iesus Christ and the holie Ghost assisting in aÌ„d by the Church For your sincere seeking of the truth it is a friuolous pretense since you do not take the meanes by God ordained to finde it Iesus Christ hath left it in the Church and if you would finde it you should looke it there Your pretence of prayer and the guift of interpretation and conference of places are trickes onelie to delude fooles for all wise meÌ„ knowe that Christ hath bestowed all helpes necessary vppon the Church and that in the Church are the power of interpretation and sanctitie and generallie all the guifts of the holy Ghost Wherefore you are first to prooue that you are the Church before you challenge the Spirit and his guifts till then wee number you amoÌ„ge those who come in at the windowe to rob and steale the soules out of men and indeuour allso as much as lies in you to rob the Church of God of her endowments 93. For the sanctitie of our Church wherewith you would equall yours I remitte you to Baronius Martyrologe and desire to see the like catalogue from your holie number But who knowes not that it is proper to the Catholique Church to breede Saints and that thence are those which out of all Nations tribes and tongues are chosen to raigne with Iesê° Christ Yet are not all in this Church truelie Saincts there are degrees of incorpotion and vnion to the heade and members Some are vnited by faith and charitie some by faith and exterior communion but want Charitie and they haue some kinde of motioÌ„ and influence from Christ the heade for without him none can beleeue a right and they are part of the great mysticall body the Church Yet they want the principall vnion which vnion will be perfect and constant in heauen where the Church shall see the deitie of the sonne of God But here good and bad are mixt yet so that the Church militant shall neuer be without many good and holie men according to the Scripture This is the couenant which I will make with the house of Israel saith our Lord Ierem. 30. v. 33. speaking of the Christian Church I will giue my lawe in their bowells and in the hart of them will write it and will be to them a God and they shall be my people Ezech. 37. v 27. And in Ezechiel I will giue my sanctification in the middest of them for euer 94. If you aske me whether the Church may be said to sinne since there be sinners in the Church I answeare no. If any sinne it is not by meanes of the Church but contrarie to her direction and Spirit And if any erre it is not by her meanes but contrarie to her Spirit and proposition So that neither the sinne nor the errour of particular men can iustlie be attributed vnto the Church since they worke not in those cases by the common iudgment and direction of the Church but by their owne priuate apprehensions and affections contrary to the Churches will and rule As when one in a well-instituted common-wealth doth secretlie steale and murder it is his priuate action it is not the action of the common wealth but flatlie against the will and lawes of it This onely I will note in this matter that euery mortall sinne doth not destroy all incorporatioÌ„ and therefore a man may be in mortall sinne and yet in the Church for he which beleeueth doth participate some kinde of life though imperfect as I said before Neither is it necessarie that in each part all vitall powers be for a mans foote doth participate life but cannot see nor heare nor imagine as doth the heade 95. In the next place insteede of an argumeÌ„t I note your vanitie in heaping things together to winne the vulgar Your silken discourses vnles they be flowred with histories of Popes Friars and Monkes are not gaudie and therefore this embrodery must not be wanting I will not loose tyme to rehearse the particulars but in generall answeare thus First if amonge twelue Apostles pict out by our Sauiour Iesus Christ one was naught and proued an Apostata it can be no meruaile if amonge more then two hundred Popes elected by men some fewe did amisse Neither can their faults preiudice Papall authoritie aÌ„d the generall doctrine of the Church or redound vnto it more then did the Apostasie of Iudas preiudice Apostolicall power and christianitie or redound vnto the rest You should haue considered rather that many Bishops of the Roman See are knowne Saincts 96. I answeare secondlie for Friars that their rule is good holie and beyond all iust exception and therefore if any not conforming themselues to this rule by weaknes faile and liue amisse the profession is no more to be coÌ„demned for it then is Christianitie for the wicked conuersation of many that professe it And the stories of Friars which you haue are but fewe some dozen peraduenture were they a thousand the matter were not greate whereas in all the Catholique world are Friars And touching Monkes it is the same their Rule is holie and their conuersation such as crownes and scepters haue ben left for to learne it 33. milliaÌ„ AbbatiaruÌ„ 14. millia Prioratuum Genebr an 524. Ordinis Praedicatorum feruntur fuisse 4143. coenobia id an 1216. Franciscanorum suo tempore 90. millia fuisse scribit Sabellicus Ennead dec 9. l. 9. their institution hath bred many Saincts and their Order hath ben so genenerally spred that they haue had many thousand monasteries at a time Among so many to haue happened a few disorders is no wonder but to thinke that your stories put case they were in parte true which is not worth examination can preiudice the rule and institution is very childish 97. Of Catholiques in generall I haue spokeÌ„ all readie they were not all saincts
what you list you set vppon the Pastor It is defined in the Councell of Florence that the Bisshop of Rome is successor to sainct Peeter and that he hath receaued in him sainct Peeter from our Sauiour power to feede and to gouerne the whole Church This is one of the things which you cannot abide a Superiour you thinke is a heauie burden ād therefore you would shake him of The Apostles say you were according to Cyprian equall in honour and dignitie Cypr. de vnit Eccl. Ieron adu Iou. Leo ep 84. The strength of the Church was equallie established on them all in the opinion of Hierom and with Leo they had a likenes in honour This is the first onset wherein you shewe neither skill nor iudgment You had but latelie discharged all the Fathers for vnable men and therefore it was an vnaduised part in you now to summō them to fight vnder your colours for you may iustlie feare that in tyme of tryall they will declare themselues to be ō our side who haue euer reuerēced and defended thē ād not on yours where they and the Church authoritie and the Spirit of Gods Church are dis-esteemed and contemned 3. But I answeare that before S. Peeter was made Pastor the Apostles were all equall after he was made Pastor they were not equall S. Peeter was then chiefe ād Superior The rest of the Apostles had power giuen them to preach the Gospell to forgiue sinnes to binde ād loose to doe miracles but onelie S. Peeter had the prerogatiue of Pastor as the Scripture doth euidentlie declare And heereby he was otherwise compared vnto the flocke then any of the rest ◠c. 6. n. 52 with whom he had all the forenamed but excelled in this that they being Legates or Apostles onely in regard of their generall iurisdiction he was Pastor of the Church This is the doctrine of those Fathers which you haue cited as you may see in their books and to saue you the labour of looking further I will shewe it in the very same places you alleage The Church saith S. Ierom is founded on Peeter S. Ieron adu Iouin ◠1. though in another place it be donne vpon them all and all receiue the keyes of heauen and the strenght of the Church be equallie establisshed vppon all These things were equallie donne before S. Peeter was made Pastor they were all equallie made Apostles and foundations and had equallie the keyes but afterwards of these Apostles thus equall one was created Pastor the rest remaining as they were who remained therefore vnequall to this one which was Peeter 10. 21. as you know by the Gospell of S. Iohn and in regard hereof S. Hierome doth adde immediately to the words but now cited yet saith he for this one of the twelue is chosen that a HEADE being constituted the occasion of schisme might be taken away Capite cōstituto So now they are vnequall because one is made heade S. Cyprian doth teach the same in the place you cite Although saith he after his resurrection he our Sauiour giues equall power saying as my father sent me so do send you S. Cyp. de vnit eccl take the holy Ghost c. where the power of remitting sinnes is equallie bestowed on all yet that he might declare vnitie he by his authoritie disposed the ORIGEN of the same Vnitie BEGINING FROM ONE * Quamuis Apostolis omnibus c. tamen vt vnitatem manifestaret vnam Cathedram constituit vnitatis eiusdē originem ab vno incipientem sua authoritate disposuit Hoc erant vtique caeteri Apostoli quod fuit Petrus pari consortio praediti honoris potestatis sed exordium ab vnitate proficiscitur Primatus Petro datur vt vna Christi Ecclesia Cathedra vna monstretur S. Cypr. de vnit Eccl. Heere S. Cyprian doth shew what course Our blessed Sauiour tooke to keepe manifest vnitie in his Church and among the Apostles themselues He our Sauiour disposed being must wise an Origen Roote or cause of Vnitie which Vnitie he would haue in his Church and amongst all the Parts of it This Origē or Roote was not a multitude equally gouerning the Church but it was ONE that is Peeter whom our Sauiour made Pastor of his Church and vppō whō he built it as S. Cyp. noted a little before and therefore he saith he disposed the Origē of this Vnitie begining frō ONE So that wee haue in this very place the Primacie of S. Peeter in that he is the Roote and Origen of Vnitie in the whole Body wherein the Apostles were and allso the reason of the Institution of this Primacie or Origen in One. In another place he doth specifie it more particularly saying that The Origen of Ecclesiasticall Vnitie is the CHAIRE that is the Pastorall Authoritie Nauigare audent ad Petri Cathedrā atque ecclesiam Principalē vnde vnitas sacerdotalis exorta est li. 1. ep 3. Vna Ecclesia à Christo Domino nostro super petram origine vnitates ratione fundata l. 1. ep 12. of Peeter And now I hope you wil beleeue it is his mind heering it out of his owne mouth Againe he saith that the Church is founded on a rocke in the Origē of Vnitie And that the Church is founded on Peeter which place S. Augustine doth allso alleage in his booke against the Donatists and in the same place which I must note heereby the way he atributeth expreslie the Primacie to Peeter Lastlie S. Cyprian saith the See of Rome is the Mother or Matrice and Roote of the Catholique Church Now if S. Peeter be the foundation or Rocke of the Catholique Church and the Origen of Ecclesiasticall Vnitie wee may conclude that he is as S. Ierom said the Heade S. Leo doth teach very well that their election was equall they had many things and among the rest Apostolicall dignitie equallie bestowed on them but afterwards one was particularly made Pastor of the Church the Roote of Priestlie Vnitie and Superior to the * Cyprianus in Ep ad Quintum ita loquitur nam nec Petrus inquit quem primum Dominus eleget super quem a dificauit Ecclesiam suam cum secum Paulus disceptaret c. S. Aug. l 2 con Donat. c. 1. Apostolum Petrum in quo Primatus Apostolorum tam excellenti gratia praeeminet c. Ibid. Hortatos esse vt Ecclesiae Catholicae Matricem Radicem agnoscerent tenerent S. Cyp. l. 4. Ep. 8. vide eundem l. 1. ep 3. l. 4. ep 9. rest Vni tamen datum est vt caeteris praeemineret S. Leo. ep 84. S. Leo serm 3. de Anniuers Ass die qui praeponatur which donne they were not in ALL respects equall His words are Among the most blessed Apostles in similitude of honour was a certaine DISTINCTION OF POWER and whereas the Election of all was equall to one was granted that he should be EMINENT ABOVE
you cannot speede there you endeuoure by the Nicene Councell to prooue the Bishop of Alexandria to be thus equall to the Roman and that the Romā Bisshop was there limited by the Councell as well as others I haue looked on that canon but see nothing for your purpose The Bisshop of Alexandria is not said there to be equall to the Roman Bishop neither is there any speach of limiting the Roman to the west as you pretend The words are Conc. Nicen can 6. Let the auncient custome be kept in Aegypt Libia and Pentapolis that the Bisshop of Alexandria haue power ouer all these because the Roman Bisshop hath such a custome Here the Popes custome is a reason whie the Bisshop of Alexandria is to haue power ouer Aegypt Libia and Pentapolis whereby is insinuated that the Bisshop of Alexandria therein depended on the Popes accustomed manner of gouermēt which argues a superioritie in the Pope not an equalitie in the other Your explicatiōs you must prooue to be text if you will haue me to beleeue thē Meane while neither in this Councell can you finde any thing for your cause vnles wee childishlie will take a glosse for the text and giue you equall authoritie with a generall Coūcell in assertiōs and decrees If the Romā Bisshop had there bene with his owne consent limited to the west for exercise of Patriarchal authoritie I would āsweare that he sustaining diuers offices in one and the same person might be more limited in regard of the one then of the other his Patriarchall power might be contained with in the west though his Pastorall Iurisdiction reached ouer the whole Church as man hath the power of seeing restrained vnto coloured Obiects but his power of vnderstanding reaches further to the whole latitude of being 11. Failing againe this way you stand still like a stocke and refuse to acknowledge any successor to sainct Peeter in his generall care and Pastorall office because you cannot see what necessitie there is of a Successor It seemes you are growne dull with disputing and would heare me rather speake I am contented A Successor in that office was ād is necessarie first because the Church at all tymes needs a generall Pastor ād visible Foundatiō as well as it did in the begining since therefore the Christiā Church is to endure till the worlds ēd Visible Pastor such as sainct Peeter was the Pastor ād visible Foūdatiō must likewise endure to confirme and to direct it secondlie Peeter in person could not feede ād rule all the sheepe of Christ from his tyme till the words end our Sauiour therefore prouiding the Church of a Pastor that might feede ād rule thē did in the persō of S. Peeter vnderstand his Successors in that office that so the sheepe might allwayes haue a Pastor to rule and feede them Otherwise the greatest part of the flocke that is all after S Peeters dayes till the worlds end should haue no generall Pastor here on earth though they wanted him no lesse yea more then did the Christians in sainct Peeters time Thirdlie the best forme of gouerment is Monarchicall something tempered with Aristocracie and the more Nations are added to the Church the more neede of a Monarch One is vndeuided in himselfe his iudgment and his principles are the same but a multitude is diuided ād the greater the multitude the more varietie of iudgmēt the greater the varietie of inclinatiōs dispositiōs affectiōs ād iudgment is the more neede there is of a cause of Vnitie to keepe them in One which would neuer be if euery mā freelie might chose his way and be a rule vnto himselfe Wee see this in Heretiques who hauing no visible cause of vnion in matter of faith doe runne sundry wayes Arius one Nestorius another and so to the very last Philosophers ould and moderne haue gonne seuerall waies and filld the Schooles with questions which will neuer be decided their iudgments being directed by no One. Seuerall Nations haue diuers lawes according to the different opinions of their Rulers and Lawe-makers the like would be in England if each Shire were independent of another and of a Monarch or common couerner In religion allso each Minister would haue his way Now the Church was to haue it it all Nations and in them is infinite varietie of iudgment 10. 10. id c. 21. wherefore our Sauiour to containe them all in one did ordaine a Monarch there shall be made one Fould and one Pastor Peeter feede my sheepe Act. 20. And tempering this Monarchie with Aristocracie he putte Bysshops allso to rule the Church Fourthlie it was necessarie that in the Church there should be one to attend generallie to the whole to call generall Councells to be President there to containe the multitude of Bishops in Vnitie and to haue a care principallie of the Churches generall affaires which care our Sauiour gaue to sainct Peeter as an Ordinarie Office in that he made him Pastor of his Fold the Christian Church and if it were necessarie then in the Apostles daies much more it is now Fiftly Pastors are to continue in the Church till the end of the world by the doctrine of S. Paul therefore the chiefe Pastor is likewise to continue which could not be in one person therefore in diuers If you say that our Sauiour himselfe is chiefe Pastor Ephes 4. I replie that amonge visible Pastors one is chiefe though subordinate vnto Christ and he is to remaine as well as the rest of the clergie and his existence is necessarie for the Gouerment of the Church Our Sauiour doth continuallie teach and baptize but by others and so doth he cōtaine the Church in Vnity and gouerne by subordinate meanes ordained and instituted for this purpose as God lights the world with the Sūne though if he had so pleased he could haue donne it otherwise 12. What you pretend about Election of a Successor is not hard the Church designes the Person and then he receaues power from our Sauiour in vertue of the first institution as man disposeth matter in the generation of a man and nature presents it so prepared vnto the Creator who by vertue of the first institution of mankinde inspires a sowle which the generant could not make It is true that the Churches action is hindered sometymes by Schisme or other meanes as mans generation is likewise hindred otherwhile but such hindrances are in tyme remoued and the Successor designed Neither is the Succession interrupted properlie in this tyme because this Election is a continuation of it So that all you haue said about the tyme of Schisme might haue bene spared because then the Church was busie in determining a successor though she were hindred sometymes more sometymes lesse according to the difficulties which did occurre 13. To conclude your opposition in this matter you take vpon you not to knowe who doth succede sainct Peeter But if you had lookt aboute you could not haue doubted First because
haue made euerie one his owne translation to binde his fellowes there vnto as the best and you haue not yet done translating and changing your translations whereas none of you can denie and all wise men doe see that if one translation could be generallie aggreed vppon it were best Now further because elder tymes as being neerer to the writers had better helpes and purer coppies it is better in the iudgment of all meÌ„ the translation be old and made in those tymes rather then now in this scarcitie of coppies this obscuritie of the language this want of the meanes which then were CoÌ„c Trid Sess 4. This considered the Catholique Church hath decreed in the Councell of Trent that among Latine translations the old and common by the longe vse of many ages approoued in the Church stand authentique and be taken for It is not any where declared by the Church that in the Clementine Edition the Vulgar Latine Translation is fullie restored to the Primitiue Integritie in all parts and words Our beleefe doth follow the declaration of the Church VVhat she defineth wee receaue THOSE who were vsed in the restitution of the Translation saie thus Accipa Christiano lector CLEMENTE summo Pontifico ANNVENTE veterem ac vulgatam Sacra Scripturae editionem quanta fieri potuit diligentia castigatam quam quidem sicut omnibus numeris absolutam pro humana imbecillitate affirmare deffieile est ita caeteris omnibus quae ad hanc vsque diem prodierunt emendatiorem purioremque esse minimè dubitandum Praefat. ad lect Some of Sixtus Bibles might be surreptitiously scattered and Iames might get a coppie but they were neuer openlie sould in Catholike Countries And the Church neuer beleeued the Correction to be so accurate that it could not be amended Decree of a Generall Councell for the fullnes of either correction I speake of them as of two in that sense as Iames doth you knowe there is none A Bull takes not force from the Printer nor from the Secretarie and Iames cannot prooue that Sixtus his Bull was euer authenticallie published By the records no such thing appeares The Church knowes not of it If it had bene it were not hard to accord all Remember what hath ben said in the former Chapter touching pretended opposition in Decrees and what I haue â—eere cited out of the Preface to the Bible such I tould you before wise men would haue but One aÌ„d this one to haue bene made long agoe when it might better be performed and to be lookt on by diuers able to iudge of the goodnes and better able and more impartiall then our selues Whence it followes that the wisest had not the decree at all bene made would yet haue chosen this it being the Old and coÌ„mon translation For it was made in the tyme of the Primitiue Church reuiewed in those daies by S. Hierome compared since by learned men in all ages to such originalls as in each age they could finde and vsed by the Church for manie hundred yeares 30. The Fountaines wee reuerence too and more fullie then you doe admitting and beleeuing whatsoeuer can be manifestlie prooued to belonge iustlie thereunto to the verie last word and letter And it is ignorance in you to say that in the Councell of Trent they be reiected The decree speakes of Latine editions onelie ex omnibus latinis editionibus quae circumferuntur c. and makes choise of one by generall vse loÌ„g before approoued True it is that the puritie of the fountaine it selfe in some places is called in question Calu. in in zach 11. inst l. 1. c 13. and Caluin your Master doth imagine that it runnes not allwaies cleerlie as you may see in his Institutions Luth. Enar in Esa c 9. Luther cryeth out on the Iewes for crucifying the text and what difficultie the Rabbines theÌ„selues haue appeares cleerely by their great Massoreth Wee haue more helpe then you all to knowe the truth in this question too wee admitte the doctrine of Tradition so must the Iewes so must you otherwise you know not which is text Wee haue allso the assistance of the holie Spirit in the Church to declare the veritie aÌ„d power of originalls where the generall necessitie of the Church doth require it and there is no Catholique in the world which is not readie to beleeue their puritie and integritie so farre as there is sufficient warrant for it 31. But how came these corruptions into the Bible this question you should haue putt vnto your Masters for my part I thinke the resolution of it nothing at all necessarie for our purpose Writers might easilie mistake especiallie considering the little difference of many Hebrewe Characters and the nicenes of the points and suppose the points be taken of there will be found some fault in the letters I knowe the Iewes are men and therefore if Gods assistance be not in the businesse their labour in counting letters giues me no securitie for how shall I knowe that their coppies were exact that the letters be dulie ordered c. which is requisite because the disposition and combination of the same letters may be diuers not onelie in one period which may serue to change the sense but in the same verie word and of the integritie in this kinde which is necessarie to the knowledge of the sense as also of the exact integritie of the Coppies which they numbred you can giue no generall warrant Againe besides the difficultie or impossibilitie of this you will be sore troubled yea it is vnpossible for you proceeding in your Protestant Principles to giue satisfaction yeauen to your owne fellowes in any part of Scripture whatsoeuer because you maintaine that all men notwithstanding the promise which God hath made vnto the Church may haue erred and consequentlie S. Ierom and S. Augustine aÌ„d others being men may likewise haue done so in determining or iudging which Scripture or writing is diuine especiallie since each part each verse is not a fundameÌ„tall as you speake I am not troubled at all in the busines but let the learned scanne the difficulties and sift things out remaining euer readie to beleeue what the Church hath or hereafter shall resolue touching the puritie the interpretation and sense of the whole or any part place or word of the text you and your Protestant Congregation with your distinction of fundamentall and not fundamentall haue no meanes to determine the integritie of the Scripture touching bookes parts verses words interpretation as in an other place I haue declared more at large THE SIXT CHAPTER Of the reall Presence 33. VVHen wee dispute you graunt the Reall Presence not able otherwise to make answere to Scripture and Antiquitie but when you dispute you declare manifestly that you beleeue it not You will not beleeue you say that the body of a man can be vnder the forme or shape of breade that the same thing can be in heauen and on the alter too If