the Church and yet be holy men Mr. B. saith in his Epist. Dedic to the Saints everlasting rest direct 5. That independency which gives the people to governe by vote is the same thing with separation which comes from pride and ignorance and directly leades to the dissolution of all Churches Then they that hold it hold their fancy and rend the Church by it and so by Mr. Bs. rule none of them were of holy lives If Mr. B. censure so Mr. Atnsworth Mr. Robinson stiled by Rivet Explic. Dec. Exod. 20. praec 4. vir pius a godly man c. he will vent a more arrogant speech then any he chargeth me with Mr. Bs. opinions about faith and justification are by some counted fancies if he should by them make a breach in the Church yet I durst not deny his life to be holy He calls it my reproach that I think it may be safely said that there are proportionably as many unholy Paedobaptists as of the opposites to refute which he referres us to that said before where I shall in its place examine it and shew that he hath done much wrong to Antipoedo baptists in two things 1. In charging them with the evils of sundry who were never of their society 2. In charging the evils of some few Apostates upon all the Churches though they expressely rejected the persons and declared even publiquely in print against their wicked principles and practises yea have been the first and almost the onely men who have so declared though many more then ever were of their Churches have fallen into the wicked Ranting wayes besides Copp and some others termed Anabaptists He tells me Lay aside the common people and compare each party that are carried to it in judgement and in conscience and experience will confute me and then bids me shew who came to the height of Cop or those in Germany To which I say Who are carried to one side or other in judgement and conscience it 's impossible to determine and therefore such an estimation as Mr. B. propoundes is not feasible it 's known many have been wicked on both sides Copps and his followers madnesse is disclaimed by the Churches in London under baptisme in their Heart-bleedings for professors abominations and therefore by Austins rule should not be charged on the Churches Whether Hacket or any other were as wicked who knowes but God The evil carriages of the men have risen from their opinion of high enjoyments of God in the spirit when they left ordinances as was observed in the Levellers not while they kept to baptisme and Church-communion Mr. Weld observed in his Story of the Antinomians page 40. that conceit of special revelations was the original of Mrs. Hutchinsons miscarriage and the like is conceived of the Anabaptists in Germany and the like tragedy was neare acting in New England as there Mr. B. I still judge does ill to aggravate so farre the actions of those in Germany and some in England as if no miscarriages of others were comparable I am sure it is no rule to judge a doctrine false by this that the professors miscarry but only to make men wary and fearful If it be he must judge the same doctrine false by reason of some mens miscarriages and true because of others godly living Page 200. he excepts against my Logick for saying it is not idem per idem to know a false Prophet by his false doctrine For what is a false Prophet but one that preacheth false doctrine I answer A false Prophet is one that is not sent by God as a false Apostle 2 Cor. 11. 13. is one that is not an Apostle of Christ and it is no trifling repetition of the same but the sure note that Christ gives to say a false Prophet is known by his false doctrine Ball Trial of grounds for separation chap. 13. page 312. If we look into the Scriptures of the old and New Testament we shall never find the Prophets called true or false in respect of their outward calling but in respect of their doctrine When Mr. B. interprets likely by ordinarily or for the most part or usually as our ordinary sense of that phrase I think he mistakes in the meaning and use of the word and that probably doth better answer to it then usually However sith he dare not say that constantly all false doctrines end in wicked lives Christs direction as he makes it to know false Prophets by their wicked lives which ordinarily though not constantly they end in however they begin otherwise is a very blind one for his people of Kederminster to make use of sith they cannot by it discerne an Antinomian or Anabaptist to be a false Prophet to beware of them till they have observed the end of a whole party proving wicked which perhaps will not be till they are dead that are tempted by them SECT XII Mr. Bs. insinuations of the wickednesse of Anabaptists is Calumniatory and vainly alleadged to condemne their doctrine of Antipaedobaptisme Anabaptists and with them myself are vindicated from charges of schisme neglect of the Lords day c. PAge 201. To deterre his hearers from Anabaptistry Mr. B. had said Where hath there been known a society of Anabaptists since the world first knew that proved not wicked A direct answer to this question thus propounded can hardly be made nor is it necessary It can hardly be made it being a question that depends partly upon much reading of histories in former times both about the doctrine and manners of men comparatively obscure and contemned Whereas Historians speak little but of eminent societies and occurrences that make a remarkable change in the affaires of their time and of things done in those ages in which Historians are but few and not of the best note when greatest darknesse was on the Church and hardest censures of the best partly upon an exact intelligence of the affaires of the present Churches of so called Anabaptists in many Countreys who have been so depressed by the opposite party as that it is somewhat hard to learne where they be All the intelligence I can get of them is by bookes for the most part of them that are their adversaries Besides it is very difficult to passe a censure upon a society which is not a consistent but a flowing body some members coming in some cast out some dying same sound some rotten some removing dwellings subject to change of Ministers opinions c. whether in the end they have proved wicked or not it being usual that some in such societies do prove wicked and others prove well And what man is there that wants not either age to see the beginninig and end of such a society or opportunity to know the state of all or most of such a society or judiciousnesse to conclude whe her they proved wicked or not it being certain that men may fall foully and yet die in Christ and there being no fixed rule for us
better in reasoning and amplifying then interpreting Scripture which I think he had need study better then I can yet perceive he hath done He takes notice page 191. of an interpretation as he is told of mine of Mat. 11. 28. which he censures for a foule interpretation He saith Sure it is the guilt of sin and accusation and condemnation of the law with which persons are said to be weary and heavy laden But I look for better assurance then Mr. Bs. word I confesse I finde nothing in the text for that sense but the coherence with ver 25 26 27. shewes ver 28. to be an invitation to come to Christ as a Teacher and ver 29. is an expression of the end of coming to him to take his yoke on them that is his doctrine and commands which is expounded by learning of him which is confirmed by the motive ver 30. which is that his yoke is easie and burden light which can be understood of no other then his doctrine and commands parallel to 1 John 5. 3. as our translators Beza new Annot. Pareus Piscator Grotius c. conceive And he useth sundry arguments to draw them 1. From the burdens on them which I conceive to be rather meant the whole context leading thereto of such Burdens as are mentioned Mat. 23. 3. then of sins which are not named 2 From his mecknesse and low linesse such as should be in a Teacher 2 Tim. 2. 24. opposed to harshnesse superciliousnesse disdaine c. which is propounded rather as an encouragement to them to learne his doctrine then as Mr. B. and others learn to be meek by my example 3. From the rest they should find to their soules contrary to distraction and disquietnesse by Pharisaical doctrine 4. From the ease of his commands contrary to the rigorous impositions of those Doctors And this interpretation seemes to me to be no foule interpretation but so faire as that I can discerne no other in the words SECT IV. Mr. Bs. citations from my writings advantage him not AFter the speech of Tertullian he filles a whole page and more with passages out of sundry of my writings and in the beginning gives this terrible title to them Mr. Tombes self condemnation and ad hominem as if he had an argument from my self against me The first passage is out of my treatise of scandals pag. 323. where I reckon Anabaptists among Hereticks and grievous wolves To which I answer 1. Mr. B. knowes I deny my self to be an Anabaptist though not my own baptisme after believing or baptizing of believers which Christ injoyned me Mat. 28. 19. Mark 16. 16. with preaching the Gospel Nor doth Mr. B. or ever will prove that for this I am to be termed an Anabaptist or that the pretended baptism of Infants is a discharge of that duty Christ requires of being baptized into his name common to all Christians Ephes. 4. 5. 2. Mr. B. himself pag. 10. yields me an absolution in these words on the one side some think it no lesse then heresie to deny infant-baptism and to require rebaptizing not that the generality of Sober Divines among which I hope Mr. B. reckons me do so but for the rest of the errors which almost ever do accompany it which Mr. B. might have imagined to have been my mind in the passage he cites having been my answer in a Sermon at Bewdley to this very objection of the Parson there in the pulpit of which I can hardly think Mr. B. to have been ignorant Other considerations of the time of printing that book might have occasioned M. B. to have put that construction on my words were he or any of my Antagonists willing to give my words or actions their due interpretation The other passages condemne me not till I be proved an agent for separation seedesman of tares which Mr. B. cannot prove though he tells me pag. 188. he hath as good evidence that I am a Sect-Master as that I am a Christian because I preach dispute talke and endeavor as zealously to promote my opinion as I do for the Christian Faith To which I answer my opinion is no other then the command of Christ and if we speak according to scripture to preach for baptisme of believers is to preach for Christian faith 2. Yet I deny that I preach with a like zeal for that particular point as for greater points of repentance from dead works faith towards God in Christ incarnate dead risen ascended to come again c. my Bewdley auditors besides others will I doubt not witnesse against this calumny 3. But were it true that I did preach so zealously for my opinion yet sith my actions tend not to make a party to follow me but only endeavour to reform a corruption like those our Saviour opposeth Mat. 23. Mark 7. there is no shew of making a sect in my actions though I were mistaken in them The passage from the same treatise pa. 103. concerning an Hypocrites falling foully doth not justify his exposition of Mat. 7. 16. It proves we oft know an hypocrite by his actions it is nothing at all to prove a false prophet by his evil manners The other two passages yield him no advantage for his proving infants disciples from Acts 15. 10. but are against him For his prooflies on this That the yokew as put on Infants and nothing was put on them but circumcision but those passages speak of the ordinances of the Jewes and with circumcision all the legal ceremonies If Mr. B. mean more by the yoke Acts 15. 10. as the doctrines and commands sure the Teachers did not put that on them till they taught them which was not in infancy And therefore my words will not help him as will appear in the examining his first argument All hitherto produced by him though by his placing it in the forefront he seems to have made account of it is but paper-shot brutum fulmen a crack without force I go on to the Epistles SECT V. Mr. B. unduely suggests many things in his Epistles AS for the Epistle to the people of Kederminster I rejoice with him in their unity excepting wherein they agree against the truth I think if they will use their understandings as they should they will find more reason to be unsettled in the point of infant-baptism by Mr. Bs. book then to be settled by it and that they had little cause of a solemne thanksgiving for Mr. Bs. mannaging the dispute My exceptions against his Aphorismes of Justification are communicated to him I wish his life may continue to Gods glory and the good of his people and particularly that he may undeceive whom he hath deceived by his dispute and this book In his Epistle to the people of Bewdley he mentions a flame of error and discord at Bewdley blown by my breath and that he came to quench it by the importunity of their Magistrate Minister and many of their people And his words are often
to judge who dies wicked who not The wisest Divines do advise caution in judging the final estate even of selfe-murtherers that have died with horrible speeches in their mouthes not long before their death I thinke God onely fit to judge of mens final estate and therefore think him fit onely to resolve Mr. Bs. question If I should aske Mr. B. where hath there been known a society of Antiprelatists that have not in the end proved wicked I think it would be as hard a thing for Mr. B. to give answer to it as for me to give answer to his question When men speak of men they speak as they are affected some magnifying whom others debase some counting that wicked which others count pious he 's canonized as a Saint a Martyr by some who is judged a Traitor Malefactor by others They that passe such a censure must trust much to informations which whether they be partial or impartial true or false who can tell Nor is it necessary to answer Mr. Bs. question For to what end Is it thereby to conclude against me the doctrine they held But what may be known by the certain rule of Scripture without this uncertain sign And therefore I conceive of this question not unlike the artifice of the Jesuites to deterre people from the plain doctrine the Protestants hold by calling for Catalogues of Protestants in all ages demanding where was your Church before Luther As if we must not own a manifest truth we find in Scripture unlesse we can produce teachers of it in former dayes and societies of professors of it that were not wicked Yet I gave for answer some instances of some societies now in Londor 500. years ago in France and some later in Germany As for those now in London Mr. B. saies 1. They are not yet come to the proof when they have reached to the end of what they are tending to then it will be seen what they will prove if they do not return and repent Answ. What he meanes by the end of what the societies in London under baptisme I mean are tending to I know not If he mean Levelling or Ranting or universal grace they have as much for their number and quality opposed them as any other in London if he know any other dangerous end they aime at it were fit it should be named that their designe may be prevented if not who can interpret this speech of Mr. B. but as from a man out of a settled hatred to the opinion unwilling to hope well of the persons against the rule of charity 1 Cor. 13. 7. which hopeth all things in them for the future whom he knows not for present to be desperately bad which he wil not say of the Churches of Anabaptists in Germany Holland England of whom Mr. B. in his book against Mr. Bedford page 310. saith thus Yea what will you say to all the Churches of the Anabaptists in Germany Holland England c. Have none of them grace till baptized Are you sure so many thousands are all unpardoned or that God is not wont to pardon them and give them grace I dare not think so uncharitably of them And after Who dare think that it is of the Anabaptists such an error as excludeth them from grace There have been societies of them for a great while though somewhat latent afore these times and of them many of the leaders are fallen asleep in the Lord many remain unblameable in respect of their faith and life And therefore why Mr. B. should so forebode as he doth the wicked end of the societies remaining I know no reason but his ill opinion of them But should God in his just judgement let it fall out so that they should prove wicked as some Churches yea the most famous as the seven in Asia have done which have begun well and ended ill it is no certain evidence against their doctrine sith their miscarriages may come from other causes whereof here and Examen part 2. sect 5. some are assigned by me and are such as have befallen others as well as they 2. Saith Mr. B. It is hard with your cause when you cannot name one society of them that ever lived in the world that proved not wicked except those now alive whose ends we yet see not Answ. 1. It were not hard with our cause though we name no society or person before our selves that were Antipaedo baptists as long as we have the Scripture for it 2. If I could not name one society yet there may be many we have but obscure intelligence of many Churches in the East and other places The Georgians children or the Christians children of Cholcis say Heylin in his Geography in the description of Armenia out of Brerewood Alex. Rosse in his censure of religio medici c. are not baptized till they be eight years old How they live what they be we have no clear intelligence probably honest though poore Christians The certain state of them in London is not known to many much lesse the state of those farre off 3. We have seen the ends of many of the societies to have been blessed and how otherwise we now alive should see the end of a successive society I do not well conceive until is be quite dissolved Mr. B. addes 3. If I were never so able to answer this yet as the world goes it is not safe to speak all or half the wickednesse of the Anabaptists now living which the history of this age will speak to posterity Answ. 1. Why it should not be safe for Mr. B. to speak half the wickednesse of the Anabaptists now living I cannot divine except it be because if he or others speak of them while they live they may be convinced of lying as Beza did the tale of his dying a Papist They are not so many nor so formidable in power or so spiteful in spirit that it should be unsafe for Mr. B. to tell the worst he knowes of them However me thinks of any man Mr. B. being according to his declaration of himself in such expectations of death as neare and so resolute to speak truth should not be moved by the unsafenesse of speaking truth Yea if Mr. B. should speak all he could I think he should not more exasperate them then he hath done part 2. chap. 14. Those that sit at the sterne I cannot yet learne have such hard thoughts of them as Mr. B. And he that reades Mr. Edwards Gangraena Mr. Baillee his Anabaptism and other writings may imagine that if there were worse matters to charge them with they would not be spared in this age especially by those that are out of their reach After-Historians may relate as partially as the present and therefore I shall not think it lawful to condemne them upon such dark intimations as this but think the better of them till their wickednesse be laid open 4. Saith Mr. B. Yet if you had named that society that
drink of that cup and this example 1 Cor. 10. 16 17. The cup of blessing which we blesse is it not the Communion of the blood of Christ the bread which we break is it not the Communion of the body of Christ For we being many are one body and one bread for we are all partakers of that one bread But for command or example that an ordained Presbyter onely should administer the Lords Supper by breaking bread c. let them that say there is shew it Mr. B. goes on But by this time you may see whither Mr. T. would reduce the Ministerial office 1. Others may baptize 2. And administer the Lords Supper 3. And then preaching is all or almost all that is left for he gives them far lesse in government than I do And how well he defended the Ministerial privilege of publique preaching in his disputes with Captain Bray is too well known And what need the people allow so much of their meanes then to maintain Ministers is not this next to the utter extirpation of them acoording to the doctrine of their learned Martin-Marpriest Answ. Pastors and Teachers or Presbyters to teach and govern the Church of God I am assured are a Divine institution and a very merciful gift of Christ Ephe. 4. 11 12 13. 1 Cor. 12. 28. Acts 14. 23. 1 Tim. 3. 1. Tit. 2. 5. to whom people should yield obedience Heb. 13. 17. and yield maintenance liberally 1 Cor. 9. 14. Gal. 6. 6. 1 Tim. 5. 17 18. If any go about to extirpate them let him be accursed as an enemy to Christ and his Church The railing bookes of Martin-Marpriest and such like on the one side and the slanderous books of Mr. Edwards Mr. Baillee c. on the other side I abhorre Yet I fear more danger to the Ministry by the pragmaticalnesse of the Ministers especially their meddling with State matters then either by Martin-Marpriests libels or my assertions Would Ministers keep to their studies and the work of Christ in preaching in season and out of season it would better establish their maintenance and Ministry then the asserting such a juridical government and power of dispensing the seales as they are called as they do I ascribe as much to the Ministry as the Scripture gives them Though the office of preaching whether publique or private be proper to the Minister so as to be his constant imployment and he ought not to be hindred in it sith he is to be accountable to God for it yet publique or private preaching I do not annex to ordained Presbyters as a peculiar priviledge to them so as none else may be said to be sent or called of God to preach in Scripture sense but they Notwithstanding what Mr. Thomas Hall in his Pulpit guarded or my quodam scholar and worthy friend Mr. Giles Workman in his better temper'd book intitled Private men no pulpit men have said I still conceive that not onely for trial of expectants but also upon other occasions persons not ordained may be permitted yea desired to preach in the pulpits I find these words in Bilsons Difference between Christian subjection and Antichristian rebellion part 4. Strangers also if they were in place were suffered both to teach and blesse in the Church as well as others that were tied to their cures by reason that many were sent by the Apostles and by the Holy Ghost to visite the Churches and comfort the Christians as they travailed and such were according to their knowledge and gift not onely permitted but also desired to exhort the people and to give thanks to God in other mens charges Grot. annot in Mat. 4. 23. Mansit is mos aliquandiu in Ecclesia Christiana ut concessu Episcoporum Scriptur as interpretarentur non presbyteri tantum aut diaconi sed 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Vide Eusebium qui Origenis aliorumque exemplo probat 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 spectant quae leguntur 1 Cor. 24. 19. Neverthelesse I am against the courses of many Souldiers and others who against the denial of able teachers to whom the teaching of the people is committed love to get into the pulpits of the ablest men to vent their peculiar conceits and oft-times their pernicious errors not reguarding to preach to the ignorant the clear truths of faith and a holy life in places where they have no Preacher but to new converts to pervert them and withdraw them from their able Teachers and to disquiet them and their congregations by frivolous exceptions And for this reason I was unwilling Captain Bray should preach at Bewdley when I was there and when he would preach and bent himself to assert a liberty to all that had Gods sanctifying spirit and could expresse their minds to take upon them to teach publiquely what 's the meaning of the Scripture and what doctrines are true and what false without any skill in arts yea though he taught error I did oppose him Which if it were not so skilfully and happily done as Mr. B. better acquainted with such mens way might have done yet me thinks my good will might have been accepted But I see very little I do is well taken and therefore see it necessary to wait patiently on God till my words and actions though intended for the furthering of reformation and good of the Ministry in my Examen part 2. sect 7 in my Apology and elsewhere be better resented and considered The fourth and fifth error Mr. B. chargeth me with as dangerous and the root of my error about baptism will more fitly come into the body of the dispute in which I doubt not but I shall shew that both himself and Mr. Blake however he esteem his writings do recede from the Scripture and other approved authors in their making the New Covenant common to elect and reprobates in making reprobates interest in the Covenant a fruit of Christs death denying the absolute promise to be most fitly called the Covenant of Grace hold that a person may not be baptized that is not known to belong to the Covenant of Grace that God actually seals the Covenant of Grace to reprobates with sundry other mistakes about Sacraments in general as if their essence were in being seals of the Covenant of Grace and deriving thence a right to baptism for believers Infants though the Covenant be conditional and common to all The fith error of mine he confutes is about the Magistrates not being an officer of Christ as Mediator And he excepts against me for saying in pulpit at Bewdley it was of dangerous consequence which he held though he named not me at any time and he wrote to me and I would not dispute it with him To which I answer It is true preaching on Mat. 28. 18. the argument leading me to it I did oppose that doctrine that the Magistrate is an officer of Christ the Mediator and because Mr. Bs. book was in some of my Auditors hands did reade the passage in his Aphorismes
page 54. where he confesseth ingenuously thus Anabaptistas Paedobaptismo oblainantes apertis testimoniis ferire non possumus vesaniam his teles comprimimus 1. ex parallelo praecepto de Circumci sione 2. ex praxi Apostalica quae quum aliquanda fit obscurior consuetudinem totius Ecclesiae à primaevis historicis temporibus adjicimus juae licet praefractos Anaboptistas non movebunt apud prudentes morigeros aejuos renum aestimatores valebunt So that according to him the main weight lies on the custome of the Church which is falsely imagined to have been from the Apostles as in some measure is proved in my Examen part of the first not yet shaken by Mr. Ms. friend with all his insight Antiquity From which I inferre that the Antients and learned afore Zuinglius did account Infant-baptism to have been an unwritten tradition having reason from Scripture not evident of it self but to be received for the determination of the Church and that because it was not fully perfect therefore Confirmation was added which was retained in the English Liturgy as necessarily previous to the Lords Supper nor do many of the best learned Protestants speak much otherwise out of the heat of dispute against Anabaptists They are farre from Mr. Bs. audaciousnesse to assert it as having plain Scripture proof for it The very hesitant resolution of the most learned and considerate is enough to represse his vain attempt and to awaken those that depend on his proofes and rest on their Infant-sprinkling and neglect the practise of being baptized after profession of faith being so expressely enjoyned in Scripture as a prime important duty for their salvation SECT XXI Many things are cleered about my conformity Anabaptists necessity to be baptized the manner of dipping used by them their standing to their confession of faith c. Page 241. he saith I begin with a complaint of my sufferings whereas my words were a gratulation for the change of my condition and for my sad complaints Mr B. makes them more then they were and misrepresents me in the time and reason of them I let passe his jerkes about my health and my grievance of removing from Bewdley his way to heaven and mine Mr. B. page 242 would vindicate his passages I cite in the Epistle to the people of Bewdley but he passeth over that which goeth before in my Epistle and makes no answer to any of these three things 1. That he assignes no sufficient note whereby to discerne the visible Church-membership of Infanrs of which he speaks 2. That there is no connexion between his visible Church-membership of Infants and the initial seal without institution of the rite to be so used 3. that in the positive rites of the New Testament there 's no reason to be a rule to us but the appointers will in some precept or practise And to shew the precept to be against him his own words are alleged and that rightly however he interpret or interlace them His interpretation agrees not with his own passage Appendix page 56. which saith neither are the seals usefull till the accepting and entring of the Covenant where he placeth accepting before entering the Covenant and in both his passages speakes of accepting and entering with consent which Infants cannot do page 243. he saith I seem to speak as if I had some of my old Episcopal ceremonious spirit though he hoped and believed verily that I did not turn meerly to the times though with the times To which I answer Mr. B. was a stranger to me till a little afore these times and therefore is not fit to charge me with an Episcopal ceremonious spirit Were it worth while to trouble the world with it I could shew how I examined as well as at those years I could the points in difference about which I was to subscribe and conforme and however I was carried away with the stream yet my subscription was according to Doctor Burges his explication and my conformity upon Mr. Spruits grounds I was no promoter of either and in the worst time I think none can say but I stuck fast to the main the propagating the Gospel and Conjunction with the Godly And my opposing the Bishops began with the soonest afore this Parliament began as soon as ever I deprehended the Bishops to be wholly for their own rule and adversaries to the preaching of the Gospel And for my non-conformity reasons were given with some of the first in a Sermon at a visitation at Lemster November 24. 1641 since printed And what I said the ceremonies were more excusable then Paedobaptism is true 1. They were not at first urged otherwise then as indifferent things Paedobaptism is urged as of Divine appointment and yet the chief principle of non-conformists doth more strongly plead against it then the ceremonies 2. Paedobaptism not withstanding the palliating salves of Mr. M. Mr. B. I find farre more pernicious then the ceremonies it being 1. The great occasion of the soul-destroying presumption whereby a great part of men perish and the genuine hinderance of the reformation of the Lords Supper and Church-communion 2. it quite perverts the end and use of baptism which the ceremonies did onely in some sort disorder I justifie not the ceremonies and therefore I need not answer the men he names but their writings yield strong arguments for me against Paedobaptism and better for me then for themselves Mr. Bs. questions page 243. are upon a mistake as if I counted all Pedobaptists meer formal teachers whereas what I speak was in tendernesse to Bewdley lest they out of averseness to my doctrine should rest in a meer formal teacher which I had reason to fear was the aime of some whom perhaps Mr. B. may find though I wish he may not he hath mistaken for godly men Who perhaps might tell him what was not true that the power of godliness is much diminished since my comming to them and their profitable converse turned into heart-burnings jealousies and fruitlesse contendings His argument pag. 244. is vain for were it supposed that Infants of believers were Church-members which his whole book proves not and it were true that baptizers cannot otherwise have knowledge when those that are piously educated begin to be Church-members yet the practise of baptizing the children of Christians ordinarily at years of discretion overturnes not the true end of Baptism For whether the true to which he addes principal in a parenthesis as if true and principal were all one end of Baptism be to be Christs sign for solemn admission of Church-members or Disciples or to be an engaging seal as elsewhere yet both these ends are preserved if they be baptized many years after their being Disciples It is untrue that it is my usual artifice to work on the affections of people when I mistrust my strength to work on mens understandings it may be more truly said of himself who usually fills up the vacuity of proofs with childish
immodesty and murder I wonder that either Mr. B. or any other considerate man that knows how persons go into bathes frequently should imagine so evil of a persons going into the water but once in course habit in a penitent form not without grave company not staying a minute in the water that it could not be performed without such danger as Mr. B. would possesse people with in the second part of his book chap. 12. 13. His satyrical I had almost said scurrilous quips I let passe I did not charge Mr. B. with endeavours to drive me or others out of the land or destroy us but I think the instigators to the ordinance against Heresies have had such minds And whereas he saith page 247. I tell him of his danger and elsewhere that I threaten him is a suggestion that I cannot yet ghesse whence it should arise The citation out of his book sect 3. of my Antidote was to shew M. B. paraphrased Mat. 28. 19 to like purpose as I do That the untruths he chargeth me with page 248. 252. were not such is shewed before The matter of the fourth fift sixt and seventh sections being argumentative is to be referred to the first part of his book Page 257. Mr. B. applies that to one term of calling some Sects which I said of the rest of his discourse especially the accusation of societies proving wicked that it hath a manifest tincture of reviling He chargeth my conscience as having a flaw for insinuating that he called all Independents a Sect and that for denying the power of a Synod to excommunicate whereas he plainly limited his speech to that Independency which gives the people to govern by vote which is the same with separatism To which I reply I took it and do still that in the books of Independents it is their received tenet that excommunicating however it be not without officers yet is in the people from Mat. 18. 17. but that whence they are named Independents by Mr. Her'le and others is from denying superiority of Synods in governing and appeales to them and if a Sect then from thence as their distinguishing tenet However for the tenet of the peoples governing by vote I know no reason why they should be called a Sect rather then their opposites The excommunication which the Scripture speaks of so farre as I discern is no where made a part of government or of the Elders office any more then the Peoples In antiquity it 's apparant out of Cyprian c. that the people had a great hand in Elections Excommunications Absolutions Nor is a person a Separatist for that tenet but for dividing practises other things in that section are answered before To that page 259. of my logick I say he is mistaken in it I know this water to be cold because I feel its coldnesse this person to be a false teacher because I hear from him false doctrine The subject is not the suppositum as a substance but as a substance with its adjunct I prove not a wall to be a wall by its whitenesse seen but a white wall and this is not idem per idem The Apostle shews the evil lives of Hereticks for better prevention of their practises not to prove them Hereticks A ravening wolfe signifies neither error of doctrine nor visiousnesse of life but the effect or end of the persons described to wit destroying souls often also lives and estates That the false Prophets have sheepes clothing that is fair shews though inwardly are ravening wolves overthrows Mr. Bs. interpretation he pleades so much for except he think they can have sheeps clothing that is fair shewes of a good life who are openly wicked so as by the fruits of their wickedness they may be known which me thinks comes near a contradiction Mr. B. often sayes he takes me not to be an Heretick nor a meer Anabaptist except they divide the Church But he taking me for a divider of the Church for my error must of necessity take me for an Heretick if he stand to the descriptions he there saith he likes so that I cannot nor any Anabaptist or Independent long look to be out of his black roll of Hereticks Page 260. Mr. B. saith I make his question an affirmation and so doth he himself that tells us it speaks what a rarity it is according to his reading that any society of Anabaptists hath not proved wicked But I make it a peremptory determination where as it is neither omnino dubitantis nor yet determinantis but provo cantis Nor did I say it was a most peremptory determination but no man will I think take his interrogation for any other then a most peremptory determination which I think is true the words carrying a plain shew of a peremptory determination and being written to the people of Kederminster were not likely to be a provocation of Anabaptists to look over their own intelligence but a resolute assurance that there hath not been known a society of Anabaptists since the world first knew them that proved not wicked And therefore I put no false sense on his words as he falsely chargeth me nor do I as he saith call him dog I onely say like a right-English mastive he flies in the face c. not comparing him to a dog but his bold act to the manner of English mastives boldness whereby he is no more called dog then Christ is thief when he saies I come as a thief Revel 3. 3. To that which he saith page 261. of my cheat I have answered To his question Did no body contradict Infant-baptism for so many hundred years and yet is it an innovation I answer yes and I think Mr. B. will say of keeping an Easter Lent-fast Infant-communion Monkish profession Episcopacy at least some of these are innovations not contradicted for so many hundred years For his testimonies page 262 263 264. for the antiquity of Infant-baptism to the chiefest of them answer hath been made that the eldest of them is not till the third age that they onely urge it and practise it in case of evident danger of present death to save from perishing that the conceit of peculiar privilege to Infants of believers is a late innovation some of them are meerly impertinent without Mr. Bs. vain infernece some Heathenish rites of expiating Infants are unseeming Mr. B. to allege they being from Satan My testimonies page 264. of Bernard Petrus Cluniacensis Eckbertus are vindicated before Strabo doth not say that afore Austins time Infant-baptism was not but onely in the first times nor is it likely that he did mistake Austins age 10 years That the Copies put 25. for 35. Nor do I think he was mistaken in the reason of Austins deferring his Baptism but that the reason he gives was one though not the sole reason of it and the testimony of Walafridus Strabo though later then Augustine yet he giving himself to search out and to write of antient rites is