doctrine is to be adiudged to come of lying as that which sauoureth against the truth of the Churches of the Apostles of Christ and of God Our doctrine proued to be true by the Successiō of the Apostolique Churche Now concerning our Churches it is euident that we agree with the original and mother Churches which were planted by the Apostles For we agree in faith with the Churche of Rome which was planted by the most blessed Apostles S. Peter and S. Paule and alwaies kepte her Succession til this present daie and therefore our doctrine is true But you agree in faith with no Churche at al now extant in the worlde which came from the Apostles and therefore your doctrine by the rule of Tertullian is false and lying Whiles he then disputed with Heretikes as we doo now with you he said either these Heretikes confesse that they beganne since the Apostles time and they are false teachers or if any of them dare intrude them selues into the Apostles age Edant origines Ecclesiarum suarum then let them bring forth the beginninges or shew the original euidences of their Churches let them vnfold the order of their Bishops so ronning along from the beginning by Succession that he who is the first Bishop had for his founder and predecessour one of the Apostles or of the Apostolike men who continued til the ende with the Apostles in the same faith Hoc enim modo Ecclesiae Apostolicae census suos deferunt For by this way the Apostolike churches do shew forth along their publike registers At length hauing brought forth the examples of the Churche of Smyrna and of the Churche of Rome and of other like Churches he concludeth thus confidenly Consingant tale aliquid Haeretic◠let the Heretiques feine some suche matter He bad them feme For he wel knewe in truth they coulde shew no suche Succession I haue then shewed that Tertullian spake not of Heretikes who lacked the pretense of Gods worde M. Ievvels Doctrine is proued by Tertulliā erroneus for lacke of Succession proued but of them who had no Succession of Bishoppes from the Apostles time til their owne age And one such Succession of Bishoppes in any one Church of al the worlde seing M. Iewel can not bring forth it remaineth that he is an Heretike and that his Doctrine is erroneus false and heretical Iewel Tertullian saith not vnto vs but vnto you and suche as you be let them shevv forth the Originals of their Churches Harding Is that al he saith M. Iewel Why went you not forth to the next wordes The Scrolles or rolles of Bishops names Let them vnfold the order of their Bishoppes He calleth it vnfolding bicause the Bishoppes names were vsed to be kept and written in order in long Rolles the whiche Rolles must be vnfolded when they are to be read He meant not therefore such Originals M. Iewel as you imagine to wit particular examples of this or that facte but he meant the Original copies or instrumentes and euidences of founding and planting of their Churche who it was that preached the Faith first vnto them and who was their first Bishop who the second who the third and so forth vntil the present time Iewel Euen so vve say vnto you shevv vs the Originals of your doctrine Harding You say not euen right so as Tertullian said For he called not for the Originals of Doctrine but of Churches Originals of Churches For by the Churches the Doctrine is knowen to be good or euil to be allowable or reproueable Iewel Shevv vs any one of the Apostles of Christe or of the learned Catholike Doctours of the Churche that euer said your priuate Masse Shevv one at the lest either Greeke or Latine Harding It was not that which Tertullian required He demaunded only for the Originals of Churches and for the order and Succession of Bishops But for that you durst not cal knowing that we could shew how S. Augustine conuerted vs being sent into England from S. Gregorie the Pope whiche Pope S. Gregorie succeded S. Peter in his Chaier Thus we can shew the Originals of our Churches bringing them from the Catholike Bishops whiche are yet aliue M. Ievvslyly diuerteth from the present matter to an other mater impertinent touching priuate Masse vpward vntil S. Peter But you are fallen away from the matter of Succession which only Tertullian presseth and are now come to demaunde of a particular facte whether any Apostle or olde Father euer said priuat Masse or no. I say al of them might haue said priuate Masse and that I proue by Tertullians reason and rule bicause the vse of saying priuate Masse came to vs time out of minde by Succession without any change or innouation noted therin by any storie or Chronicle And yet was ther neuer any strange or new thing receiued and vsed in the Churche but that great trouble came thereof as now there doth of your changing of Religion the whiche trouble of Churches and common Weales is at no time omitted in the stories of that age wherein it falleth But now seing the vse of saying priuat Masse came so peaseably to vs from hand to hand and no first author thereof can be shewed it is out of al controuersie that it was euer accompted a Godly and a lawful thing But what neede I now to repeate that I haue already written in that argument Answer that parte of my booke better to the purpose then yet ye haue donne whiche treateth of that point where many plaine euidences be brought forth of Sole Receiuing Sole Receiuing in the Primitiue Churche In my ansvvere Art 1. and likevvise in my first Reioindre Aug. Epi. 165. whiche Sole Receiuing is the onely thing for whiche you reproue priuate Masse as you cal it It is cleare that S. Chrysostom and certaine others said Masse and yet had no man to receiue with them as I haue other where declared I thinke not good now to fal into that Disputation againe and therefore here I wil cal you home to the present Argument of Succession Iewel Pag. 128. 129. S. Augustine saith of so many Bishops of Rome there could not one be found that had benne a Donatiste Euen so in like sorte say vve to you of al the same Bishops of Rome there can not be one found that euer agreed vvith M. Harding in saying Masse Or if there vvere any such shevv his name vvith other Circumstances vvhen and vvhere and vvho vvere vvitnesses of the doing Shevv vs your Originals M. Harding Confesse the Truth deceiue vs no longer It is a nevv deuise ye haue it only of your selues and not by Succession from the Apostles Harding You pretend to reason like S. Augustine as though he had reasoned vpon a particular facte and not vpon the Doctrine Euen so in like sorte say you and it is not euen so nor in like sorte S. Augustine concluded that the Donatistes were Heretikes S. Augustines
shal succede him that is your accursed addition but he saith non parcentes gregi which you haue left out Those rauening Wolues shal not spare the flocke but shal diuide the faith and scatter the flocke as you haue doone For where one Faith was you haue made two and where charitie was you haue set debate Now whereas S. Paule farther saith men speaking peruerse things shal spring out of them selues he saith not Act. 20. they shal spring by Succession That is your foule corruption of the holy texte He addeth also other wordes immediatly whiche you haue leaft out as vtterly betraying your foule Heresies It foloweth in the selfe same clause and sentence vt abducant discipulos post se There shal spring out of your selues men speaking peruerse thinges Act. 20. to leade away scholars after them Vt abducant to lead away Whence shal they lead them from the Apostles and from their Successours and from the flocke wherein they liued before Whither shal they lead them Post se after them selues That is to saie they shal not keepe the former Succession of Doctrine and order teaching as their Fathers haue donne but they shal departe from that Succession and shal leade and cari◅ others awaie with them and become peruerse Teachers in suche sorte that they shal haue Disciples of their owne who shal beare their name as Luther hath the Lutherans Zuinglius hath the Zuinglians Caluine hath the Caluinistes after him who goe away from their forefathers Doctrine and them selues set vp a new beleefe comming in Christes name and pretending his Gospel but yet not teaching his truth bicause thei leaue the Succession where only his truth was and is taught For it onely doth by open practise shewe and witnesse the true meaning of his worde vvho be the leaders avvay of the Flock 3. Reg. 12. This this M. Iewel is the Succession that we claime by Tu abducis you leade awaye the flocke from their auncient Pastours and shepeherds we tarie stil behinde in the old Succession of Peters Chaier Ieroboam went out from Moyses Chaier and caried ten tribes after him so did Arius and so did Luther so did Caluine so doo you The Prophetes taried behind with Moyses Chaier in so muche that good Simeon Anna Zacharias Elizabeth and our Ladie the Blessed Virgin Marie chose rather to dwel in Gods Church with the vnclean scribes and Pharisees then to goe out ofter the Samaritans and to seeke a cleaner Congregation either in the mount Garizim or in Egipte in the Scismatical Temple of Onias Euen so doo we abyde stil in the olde Church neither are we greatly moued with your mockes and scoffes when ye cal it the Mumpsimus Churche Yea we abide contented with the olde translation of the Bible with the olde Portuises and Masse bookes yea perhappes also emong some Scribes and Pharisees But yet there by Goddes grace we wil looke for our Lords glorious comming who commended our forefathers to the special charge of Peter Ioan. 21. and therein vs to his Successours We are within the Fold ye without we are Sheepe ye are Goates we keepe in al that we can ye drawe away and pul out al that ye can we sprang not out of you but ye out of vs. If S. Paule had spoken of his Successours in that place he would not haue said Vt abducant to leade away scholars For when some be leadde away some others tarie behind Now the Successour if he abide not behinde he is no Successour Nestorius a skatterer of the flock but a leader away In so muche that Nestorius being Bishop of Constantinople yet when he taught otherwise of Christes Person then his Predecessours had donne he was then no Successour of Alexander Paulus and S. Chrysostome because he disalowed those his Predecessours but he was a scatterer of the flocke and a leader away of Scholars after him selfe and not after his Predecessours Thinke you that any true beleeuing man taketh you M. Iewel for one of the Successours of S. Augustine our Apostle M. Ievv no Successour of our Apostle S. Augustine who conuerted our English nation from Idolotrie to Christe Are you his Successour Why you lead men away from him and persuade in this your booke that he was not our true Apostle nor any true teacher of Gods worde but a cruel and blouddy man 1. Ioan. 2. and proud aboue measure Away Woolfe and deuoure thy Goates abroade thou camest from vs but thou wert not of vs for if thou hadst benne of vs thou hadst remained stil with vs. I exhorte al Christian menne to returne vnto the Succession of Peter and of al other faithful menne who abide in the same faith with him Iewel S. Hierome saith they be not alvvayes the children of holy men that by Succession haue the places of holy men Dist 40. Non est Harding Double holines There is a double holinesse one of life an other of state or office Concerning life it is true that many times euil men succede in the place of good And so meant your Author M. Ievv falsifieth S. Hierome Dist 40. Nō est facile as his owne wordes whiche in the same sentence you haue leafte out doo witnesse For thus he saith Non Sanctorum filij sunt qui tenent loca sanctorum sed qui exercent opera eorum They are not the children of the Saintes who holde the places of the Saintes but those who practise the workes of the Saintes In this sentence you haue leaste out the ende and haue caste in of your owne the worde alwayes and these two wordes by Succession And when al is done the sentence is not S. Hieromes but Gratians owne added to the former woordes of S. Hierome Howbeit they are somewhat altered Hierom. epist ad Heliodorū For thus saith S. Hierome Non est facile stare loco Pauli tenere gradum Petri iam cum Christo regnantium It is not an easy thing to stande in the place of Paule and to holde the Degree of Peter now raigning with Christe of whiche ye can take no aduantage against Succession whereof we treat Holinesse of degree and office Ioan 1. But concerning holinesse of Degree state and office there is the same holinesse in the Successour which was in the Predecessour For it is Christe that baptizeth and that in like ministeries worketh by the euil man as wel as by the good so long as the Succession is not broken of and forsaken For if that be once done he that maketh the breache is not properly a Successour in truthe but a beginner of errour As for example Who wil say that Cranmer was the Successour of S. Thomas Cranmer no Sucessour of S. Thomas the blessed Martyr or of Bishop Warrham in the Chaier of Cantorburie I trowe he him selfe would not say it if he were a liue seing he succeded not in their Faith and Doctrine Iewel Pag. 127. Not vvithstanding the
that there is no succession in doctrine Now I saie ronne ouer al the Bisshops of Rome and you can saie of neuer a one this man coÌ„ming into his Predecessours See did oppugne his doctrine or preached with the Churche of Romes contentation against that which was in vse before So that in Rome al thinges are euen at this day concerning faith as S. Peter leafte them For euery man hath agreed in outward Decree senteÌ„ce and profession with al the predecessours and successours Iewel Pag. 132. S. Bernard saith Quid prodest si canonicè eligantur In concil Remen non canonicè viuant VVhat auaileth it if they be chosen in order and liue out of order Harding It auaileth nothing to the euil liuer but yet it auaileth muche to him that obeieth the good and true doctrine of the euil teacher Iewel So saith S. Augustine Ipsum characterem multi lupi Cont. Donatist lib. 6. 1. q. 3. vocantur caâ—es Character vvhat it signifieth in the Sacraments lupis imprimunt The outvvarde marke or right of a bisshop many geue to vvolues and be vvolues them selues Harding By Character is not meant an outward marke but rather an inwarde marke and print which through the receiuing of certaine Sacramentes is imprinted in the soules of them who receiue them of whiche sorte are Baptisme Confirmation and holy Orders And those sacramentes being once receiued caÌ„ not be repeated or be againe receiued of the same person For the Sacrament of Christes body and bloud although it be an outward signe yet it leaueth not any Character or suche inward print in the soule as may be no more repeated But letting that errour passe of the true interpretation of this worde Character I graunt that Heretikes may baptize heretikes euen without the Churche and the Baptisme shal stand although it be vnlawfully ministred What maketh that against the Suceession of Bishops It rather proueth that seing the Sacramentes may be ministred if not to saluation of them that are of discretion yet truly and really without the true Churche there must be an other rule taken to know the true Church by besides the administration of Sacramentes And that true and certaine rule is the perpetual Succession of the See Apostolike Iewel Pag. 132. Therefore the auncient father Irenaus geueth vs this good counsel Eis qui sunt in Ecclesia presbyteris obedire oportet Iren. lib. 4. ca. 43. qui successionem habent ab Apostolis qui cum episcopatus successione charisma veritatis certum secundùm beneplacitum patris acceperunt It becommeth vs to obey those Priestes in the Churche vvhich haue their succession from the Apostles and together vvith the Succession of their bishoprikes according to the good vvil of God the Father haue receiued the vndoubted gifte of the truthe Harding Al this maketh against you M. Iewel For seing you can shew no such Priestes hauing their Succession from the Apostles and hauing receiued the vndoubted gifte of the truth whom ye doo obeye it is certaine that ye haue not the gifte of the truthe among you On the other side seing we haue Priestes that is to say Bishoppes of Rome who are also Priestes which haue their SuccessioÌ„ from the chiefe and most glorious Apostles Peter and Paule and seing such Priestes and Bishops keeping stil the same faith and doctrine from man to man haue receiued the vndoubted gifte of the truth according to the good wil of God the Father doubtelesse the vndoubted marke of the truth is with vs only and not with you at al who haue no Succession at al of any Priestes and much lesse of any suche Priestes that succede lineally from the Apostles them selues Iewel 132. S. Cyprian being likevvise charged for dissenting from his predecessours Lib. 2. epist 3. ansvvereth thus Si quis de antecessoribus meis c. If any of my predecessours haue not obserued and kepte the same that our Lorde hath taught vs both by his example and also by his coÌ„maundement his simplicitie may be pardoned but we if we doo the like can hope for no pardon being nowe admonished and instructed of our Lorde Harding Cough vp man it wil choke you Phy. vvhat a fowle corruption is this Lib. 2. epist 3. if you let it tarry within your throte Here is but halfe the bone there is yet in S. Cyprian no ful point it foloweth in the same sentence Vt calicem Dominicum vino mixtum secundùm quod Dominus obtulit offeramus We can hope for no pardon who are now admonished and instructed of our Lorde that we should offer our Lordes chalice mixed with wine accordingly as our Lorde offered the same Either M. Iewel tooke this saying of S. Cyprian vpon the Germaine credite as he found it noted in their bookes and then his false brethren deceiued him or els he wrote it out of S. Cyprian himselfe and then his studie and wil was to deceiue vs. He would ful gladly haue geuen vs an authoritie that we might forsake the example of our Predecessours but he was loth we should see the thing wherewith the authoritie was exemplified For if at any time he say al he is sure to speake against him selfe and no wonder because he speaketh against the truth and euerie good saying euermore agreeth with the trtuh First he corrupteth S. Cyprian in putting in meis for nostra my predecessours in stede of our predecessours For S. Cyprian speaketh not of his owne Succession but of what soeuer Priest or Bishoppe that liued before his time Againe S. Cyprian spake not of any such custome as had ben generally vsed of al Bishops for then it had ben of ful authoritie but of that which some one man vsed priuatly and without keeping the lawe of Succession And therefore S. Cyprian said Si quis if any man Thirdly the thing he spake of was that some were said to offer water alone in our Lordes supper and not wine withal Now saith he if any before our time haue vsed to offer water and not wine mingled with water wel he may be pardoned by our Lordes mercie but we that are admonished and instructed to offer our Lordes chalice mingled with wine that is to say consisting not of water alone but of water and wine mingled together we caÌ„ not be pardoned except we mingle water with wine and so do offer our Lordes Chalice as he him selfe did offer it Nowe applie this geare Christian Reader to our new brethrens deedes Do they offer our Lordes Chalice at al Or do they graunt that our Lord in his Supper offered it Do they mingle water with wine at the time of consecrating the mysteries If they do neither of both what folie yea what madnesse was it for M. Iewel to bring foorth these wordes of S. Cyprian thereby to accuse him selfe and his owne Communion as not obseruing that whiche our Lorde commaunded to be obâ—â—rued It is a worlde to see how these men applye the witnesses of
be sure to liue for ouer the whiche no euil man can eate For if it could so be that he who continueth euil stil should eate the worde made fleash whereas it is the woorde and liuing bread it should not haue ben written whosoeuer eateth this bread shal liue for euer Origen fovvly corrupted by M. Ievv These are the true wordes of Origen But M. Iewel hath so mangled them that the sense is cleane altered For in steede of verbuÌ„ caro factum the worde made flesh he hath placed the body of Christ referring it to the Sacrament And whereas in Origen it is edere verbum factum carnem to eate the word made flesh he hath made exchange thereof into edere corpus Domini to eate the body of our Lorde And so whereas Origen meant that euil men can not eate spiritually and effectually the Diuinitie of Christ so as it dwelleth corporally in his flesh M. Iewel hath taught him to say that an euil man can not in the Sacrament eate Christes bodie Iewel Pag. 210. VVe say vvith S. Augustine the Sacrament is not our Lorde In Iohan. Tract 5â— but the bread of our Lord. Harding S. Augustin denieth not the SacrameÌ„t to be our Lord he hath no such wordes Howbeit we our selues would denie it in some sense For some tyme the Sacrament is taken for the forme of bread and wine and that in deede is not our Lord. Iewel 212. M. Harding might accompt not only seuen but also seuenteen sundry Sacramentes Harding I accompt onely seuen in such sense as the Churche properly taketh a Sacrament And how that is I shewed before Iewel pag. 213. Thus vve say it can not be proued that this number is so specially appointed As for the reasons of seuen seales seuen trumpettes seuen starres seuen golden Candelstikes and seuen eyes they are childish Harding We ground not our seuen Sacramentes vppon those similitudes Seuen Sacrametes August de Ciuit. Dei li. 11. c. 30. de doctrina Christiana lib. 2. cap. 16. Albeit if any man applie some of those matters to the seuen Sacramentes it is not childishely done seing S. Augustine confesseth that the Mysteries of numbers be great in the holy scriptures Iewel 213. Vnto euery Sacrament tvvo thinges are necessarie a sensible outvvard Element as in Baptisme VVater in our Lordes Supper Bread and VVine and the vvord of Institution Harding Thus farre we are agreed with you Iewel Matrimonie Order and penaunce haue the vvoorde of God but they haue no outvvard creature or Element Extrems Vnction and Confirmation haue neither vvoorde nor Element Harding To answere you herein M. Iewel I can not doo better Conci Florentin in vnione Armeniorum then to send you to the Councel of Florence and to the bookes wherein the order of our Sacramentes are conteined Where you shal finde that there lacketh neither the woorde of Institution nor conuenient Element It is yenough to vs that both by the woorde of God and by the perpetual doctrine of the Churche we are taught Act. 8. Iacob 5. Luc. 22. Ioan. 20. that these seuen are Sacramentes Confirmation is proued in the Actes of the Apostles Extreme Vnction in the Epistle of S. Iames Order in S. Luke and in S. Iohn Now baptisme and our Lordes supper your selfe graunt of penaunce and Matrimonie I haue said sufficiently already To be short we are in possession of seuen Sacramentes neither can you nor any man now aliue or that euer liued sith the Apostles shewe that euer the Church was without so many Sacramentes Impugne them when you list I doubt not but you shal be answered For that ye haue said hitherto is litle worthe and most thinges are lyes Iewel pag. 213. 214. De SacrameÌ„tâ— Eucharistia The auncient Fathers hauing occasion to intreate of purpose and specially hereof speake only of tvvo Sacramentes and so Bessarion namely saith Harding None of them al hath written purposely of al the Sacramentes of the Church but as occasion serued M. Ievvel belyeth the ancient Fathers touching the number of the SacrameÌ„tes Dionysius De Ecclesiast Hierarch TertulliaÌ„ lib. de resur carnis Cyprian lib. 2. Epist 1. ad StephanuÌ„ Bessarion de SacrameÌ„to Eucharistiae Bessarion belyed by M. Ievvel they now speake of two now of moe Of two they speake the more specially bicause the custome was to geue them both together to those that were of discretion Howbeit Dionysius Areopagita the most auncient of al intreateth of many moe as his booke de Ecclesiastica Hierarchia doth witnesse Tertullian besides Baptisme and the body of Christ nameth together with them Anointing and Signing and Imposition of handes And the Doctours which you bring affirme two but they denie not moe Yea S. Cyprian whom you cite in the first place can not be proued there to meane by both Sacramentes Baptisme and the supper of our Lorde Bessarion saith two were deliuered plainely in the Scriptures but he confesseth moe whiche are deliuered also in the Scriptures though not so plainely as the other two And he expressely nameth Chrismatis Sacramentum the Sacrament of Confirmation or of Bishopping Of the other Sacramentes in general he speaketh twise in the beginning of that Treatie Wherefore there is an impudâ—nt he included in your wordes where you saie that I haue in expresse wordes The onely two Sacraments of the Churche So that nowe we maie couple you with Beza â—â—o teacheth the same doctrine in his Confession and iuâ—â—ly cal you bothe false teachers Iewel 214. Al these thinges not vvithstanding the Tridentine Councel concludeth seuen Sacramentes Harding So it ought and maie easily doo M. Iewel any thing that you haue yet brought notwithstanding You proue in dede that there are two Sacramentes but that there are no moe you haue not brought so much as one apparent authoritie Sauing that of Bessarion who neuerthelesse is vtterly against you For he beleued and taught that there were seuen Sacramentes Bessarion De Sacramento Eucharistiae as by that Treatie it maye wel appeare But what should I do good reader should I now proue that there are seuen Sacramentes Certainely it were easy for me so to doo and to set out a booke of that Argument farre greater then M. Iewels is And that may wel appeare true by that Ruardus Tapper Cardinal Hosius and Petrus a Soto with diuers other learned menne haue done in this behalfe I am sure M. Iewel wil not denie but I were hable to english at the lest that which I should find in their Latin bookes And yet therein standeth his whole shewe For in deede he doth litle els but english that which the Germaines and Geneuians bookes haue The 7. SacrameÌ„tes proued out of S. Augustine Augustiniana CoÌ„fessio The vntruthes and scoffes that he addeth of his owne though they be many in number yet doo they not greatly increase the bulke of his volume Besides al other Catholique bookes there hath one benne set forth
Defenders require vs to follow the example of S. Irenaeus in that he as they saie appealed oftentimes to the oldest Churches whiche had benne nearest to Christes time and whiche it was hard to beleeue that they had erred thus I saie Confut. â—â—4 a. Ye would seeme to be faine that we folowed the aduise of S. Irenaeus We are content with al our hartes And with Irenaeus we appeale to that Tradition Irenaeus lib 3. ca. 8. which is from the Apostles which as he saith is kepte in the Churches by Priestes that succeded them With Irenaeus leauing other Churches whose succession of Bishopes it were a long worke to reherse we require to haue recourse for trial of our Faith to the tradition of doctrine of the Romaine Churche which he termeth greatest oldest Idem lib. 3. cap. 3. best knowen to al founded and set vp by the twoo most glorious Apostles Peter and Paule We appeale to the Faith of that Churche taught abrode in the worlde and by successions of Bishoppes brought downe vnto vs. For to this Churche saith Irenaeus must al the Church of Christe repaire where so euer it be for that it is the chiefe of al and for that the tradition of the true doctrine whiche the Apostles lefte behind them is there faithfully kepte Wherfore if ye would after the counsel of Irenaeus resorte to Rome for decision of the controuersies that be betwixte you and vs and would them to be tried by that sense of doctrine whiche hath continued by Successions of Bishoppes euen from Peter to Pius the fourth now Pope and would stand to the auctoritie of that See Apostolike al strife were ended we should be at accorde But we haue litle hope that ye wil folowe this godly counsel of S. Irenaeus that blessed Martyr whose bodie your brethren the Huguenotes of Fraunce villanously burned at Lions Anno Domini 1562. after it had rested there thirteen hundred yeres and more In al these wordes as thou seest reader I say not as M. Iewel beareth her Maiestie in hande I doo that we must learne to know the wil of God only at the Popes hande But I declare whether we may most safely resorte for decision of the controuersies that be betwixte vs and the Protestantes Whereunto M. Iewel hath not yet answered ne neuer shal be hable to answere though in the Defence he haue shuffled together a great heape of allegations nothing perteining to the present purpose as his custome is to doo and a great parte of my confutation there he hath cut of M. Iewel cutteth and mangleth the Confutation in infinite places leauing out wordes of greatest vveight and therby hath fowly mangled the same as for his aduantage he hath done in infinite places leauing out the matters whereunto he had not what reasonably to answere See the place Reader Defence pag. 701. and thou shalt finde my worde true Item there Iewel That in the Popes onely holinesse standeth the vnitie and safetie of the Churche Confut. 204. b. Harding If I had so said in a right sense it might wel be allowed Howbeit thus I said Confut. 204. b. As Christe gaue vnto S. Peter and his Successours for the benefite of his Churche a supreme auctoritie and power so for the same Churches sake for whose loue he deliuered him selfe to death by petition made to his Father he obteined for him and his Successours Ioan. 14. Luc. 22. the Priuiledge of this Supreme and most excellent Grace that their Faith should neuer faile In consideration of whiche singular priuiledge obteined by Christe and graunted to the See Apostolike and to none other S. Gregorie rebuketh Iohn the Bishop of Constantinople so much as one that presumptuously vsurped that new name of vniuersal Bishop against the Statutes of the Gospel and against the decrees of the Canons To coÌ„clude if either S. Gregorie or any other maÌ„ should saie that the Churche dependeth vpon one man he might seeme to saie truthe meaning rightly and that not alone nor without good authoritie For such a saying we finde vttered by S. Hierome Hieron Contra Luciferian The saftie of the Churche saith he dependeth vpon the dignitie of the highest priest who if he haue not auctoritie peerlesse and aboue al other there wil be so many schismes in the Churche as there be priestes Which peerlesse auctoritie aboue al other as S. Hierome in that place doth attribute vnto the Bishop of euery Dioces directly so consequently to Peters successour to whom it was said Feed my shepe Iohan. 21. For by what reason in ech Dioces it behoueth one priest to be highest ouer other Priestes by the same and in like proportioÌ„ no lesse it behoueth that in the whole Church one Bishop be highest ouer other Bishoppes I meane for auoiding of schismes This reason is not ne can not of M. Iewel be auoided Of other thinges impertinent he bringeth vs great stoare out of other men in the Defence Defence pag. 452. but to this very reason wherein standeth the pointe touching the maintenance and preseruation of vnitie he saith nothing Item there Iewel That vvho so euer is diuided from the Pope must be iudged an Heretique and that vvithout the obedience of him there is no hope of Saluation Confut. 306. b. Harding Who so euer is diuided not onely from the Pope but also from any other Catholique Bishoppe in faith ought to be iudged an Heretique As touching obedience Iohan. 21. whereas by Christe he is commaunded to Feede his Lambes and his sheepe and thereby hath commission to gouerne them how can he be saued from the rauening woolues who through disobedience refuseth to come into that Folde and to be fedde and guided of that high Pastor I confesse that in certaine cases besides faith a man may disobey the Pope and yet not be remoued from all hope of saluation My wordes for whiche you make so muche a doo are these vttered vpon occasion of your Apologie Confut. fol. 306. b. Ye put vs in minde to consider how that your selues are those priuate hil Aulters and darke groues For ye be they that stoppe the people from the commoÌ„ Temple of Christendom the Catholique Church out of which is no saluation the head whereof sitteth in Peters Chaire at Rome Item there Iewel And yet as though it vvere not sufficient for him so vainely to sooth a man in open errours he telleth vs also sadly and in good earnest that the same Bishop is not onely a Bishop but also a kinge Confut. fol. 80. a. 305. b. Harding Neither haue I in any place soothed the Pope in open Errours but haue graunted that certaine Popes had their Errours either before they were called to that roume or also afterwarde holding them priuately and as priuate Doctours That the Pope erreth how is it denied But that by any publique decree geuen out to be holden and obserued of the Churche they euer mainteined or gaue assent or
the Doctrine touching Hel betwene Iacobus Smidelinus and Nicolaus Gallus on the one parte teaching that Christe suffered also in Hel and felt the torment of that euerlasting Fyre and the Preachers of the Sea townes of Saxonie on the other parte who tel their people there is no Hel at al The like strife is about the Doctrine of Freewil some holding with Luther some with Caluine They be diuided likewise in their determinations touching Iustification some imputing it to Faith onely as Matthias Flacius Illyricus some partly to Faith partly to Charitie as Philip Melanchthon and Georgius Maior Of Penaunce some make three partes some make but two About the number of the holy Sacramentes their discord is more notorious The Gouernours of the congregation of Geneua from whence our new Churche of England hath fetched their light admit two So doth Illyricus and many Preachers of Saxonie that dawnce after his Pype The Doctours of Lipsia wil haue three not one more nor one lesse Melanchthon at Wittenberg and they of his bande wil needes haue foure at the least Others some there be that content them selues with one Al the reste they refuse And now of late yeres as this Gospel is a Proceeding Gospel and remaineth not long in one sorte of Doctrine there be vnder the kingdome of Pole that haue abandoned the necessitie of al the Sacramentes of the newe Testament and require the Iewishe Circumcision to be restored It is muttered also that in some places where this Ghospel is hotest that the Paschal Lambe is called for O merciful God whyther wil this Gospel proceede at length But what neede I to speake of the strifes and debates that were and be in our time betwixt the chiefe Maisters of this new Religion They were at debate not onely side against side men against men Preachers of one Churche against Preachers of an other Churche but also many of them and that of the most famous were at debate with them selues Bucer with Bucer Bucer Melanchthon with Melanchthon Luther with Luther Caluine with Caluine Peter Martyr with Peter Martyr What a doo had Bucer to keepe him selfe in credite with any side who after he ranne out of his Cloister and tooke vnto him a Yokefellowe firste became a Lutheran after that a Zuinglian and againe a Lutheran and last of al after he came into England as it is wel knowen nor perfite Lutheran nor perfite Zuinglian but an vncertaine and ambiguous Mongrel betwen bothe Melanchthon Melanchthon as the worlde hath seene and as it may be proued by sundry his editions of his Common places and other writinges was so mutable in his Faith that he semeth to haue made him selfe a slaue subiecte to al occasions of mutations As he was neuer stable in his life time so a litle before his death he turned wholly from his olde Maister Luther and became a Caluinian Sacramentarie as his Epistle witnesseth written to the Palsgraue of Rhene and so died in the woorst change of al. To declare how Luther Luther disagreed with him selfe bothe in deedes and writinges it would require a whole booke The same hath ben at large set forth by Cochleus and other learned men of our time What be the contradictions wherein Caluine Caluine fighteth with him selfe and other his infinite errours and confusions Nicolaus Villagagno that learned man and valiant knight of S. Iohns Order hath diligently discoouered Peter Martyr in Strasburg a LutheraÌ„ in England a zuingliaÌ„ As for Peter Martyr I reporte me to the whole Vniuersitie of Oxforde that heard his lessons whether at his first comming thither he were not a Lutheran touching the matter of the blessed Sacrament and after he had ben sent for to come to London and had ben schooled in the courte in king Edwardes time became a Zuinglian Who so euer wil stand in his defence this that I shal here say can not be denied At Strasburg from whence he came into England he professed the Faith of the Lutherans for otherwise he shoulde not haue receiued stipende for his Lecture of the Magistrates there But at Oxforde he changed his Faith of Strasburg for the Faith of king Edwardes Courte For which cause he was not receiued againe at Strasburg at his returne out of England in Quene Maries reigne and therefore he tooke such coÌ„dicion as he could gete at Zurich in Suitzerland So Peter Martyr of Strasburg agreed not with Peter Martyr of Oxford as the world knoweth and his bookes doo witnesse And it may be doubted whether Peter Martyr of Oxford agreed with Peter Martyr of Zurich What confusion is this To dwel no longer in this lothsom matter what Babylonical confusion is in the chiefe Doctours of this new founde Gospel if there were nothing els to be said it might appeare by that we find that Gaspar Querchamer Gaspar Querchamer a learned laye man hath gathered together six and thirty places repugnant the one to the other vpon the one only Article of CoÌ„munion vnder one or both Kindes and by that Osiander writeth of Melanchthon and his folowers that they helde .xx. Opinions 21. OpinioÌ„s touching the Article of Iustification diuers and disagreing the one from the other touching the Article of Iustification Whereunto he addeth his owne different from th' other and also from the truth and so maketh vp the number of xxj dissonant Opinions Al this being weighed and considered I trust it shal not be taken for any hainous crime of my parte that I called that Synagog where such men be the chiefe Apostles and Prophetes a Babylonical Tower Yea now if ye list M. Iewel to aggrauate that greuous faulte of myne I say againe that it is woorse then the Babylonical Tower howe muche woorse it is confusion of Doctrines to be â—ounde in them that haue charge of Soules then confusion of tonges in them that builde vp stone walles Whether the chiefe Deuisers of this new Gospel might not iustly be called Loose Apostates You haue put in your heape of bitter wordes pretended to be gathered out of my bookes this saying as by me spoken to your companions Ye are Loose Apostates Which saying in very deede in suche forme of wordes is not myne For trial whereof the Reader may repaire to the place directed by your cotation The place is in my Confutation of your Apologie fol. 323. a. By the note of this saying you thought to discredite me for that is the thing you seeke most chiefly being otherwise vnhable to answere to the pointes of doctrine What thereby you haue obteined among your dere brethren the married Moonkes and Friers I knowe not ne recke not verely for the same I am neuer a white a shamed to shew my selfe before good men Loose Apostates But with which of these two bitter woordes are you greeued M. Iewel With Loose or with Apostates Amend ye the one and I promise you to reuoke the other VVho is an Apostata Bicause euery
more reuerently of Peter then of Iesus Christe 593. The Popes Aduocates Abbates Bishoppes open enemies to the Gospel 618. Your Popes Retainers 695. They make decrees expressely against Gods worde 620. The Pope wil plucke from vs the Gospel and al the confidence we haue in Christ Iesu 723. The Pope hath blinded the whole worlde this many hundred yeres and no man maie condemne him though he carrie awaie with him a thousand soules into hell 729. Frantike gouernement of the Pope 733. The second Councel of Nice was vaine peeuish wicked blasphemous 502. Before the Scriptures they preferre their owne Dreames 70. Hicke Scorners eloquence 356. Hicke Scorners logique 270. Hypocritical eloquence 2â—0 They are very Churche robbers 228. These shewes sales and markettes of Masses carrying about and worshipping of bread other idolatrous and blasphemous fondnesse 290. Blockish and olde wiues tale 296. Haruest of Massemongers 302. Truth is with crueltie and tyrannie kepte vnder 334. They agree together as the Phariseis and Saduceis as Herode and Pilate c. 342. The very foes of the Gospel and enemies to Christes Crosse 354 Your faction 611. 615. Aduoutrie ribaudrie whoredome murthering of kinne inceste brothel houses flockes of Concubines heardes of harlot haunters beastly sensualitie abominable naughtinesse 384. Like Anabaptistes and Libertines 395. Naughty personnes and hypocrites 429. They abhorre and flee the worde of God as a theefe flieth the gallowes 464. Ye rent in peeces and burne the ancient Fathers 500. Ye condemne the Scriptures 505. Your Droues and heardes of Monckes 508. They let concubines to ferme to their Priestes 510. Their cursed paltrie Seruice 511. They mumble vp their Seruice in a Barbarous tongue 515. The Canonistes at this daie for their bellies sake c. 560. They haue choked vp the fonteine of lyuing water with durtâ— and mire 573. They haue forsaken Christe and the Apostles 576. VVith most notorious sacriledge they seuer the Sacramentes 584. They leane to ignorance and darkenes 590. They haue spoiled and disanulled the ordinances and doctrine of the Primitiue Churche 592. Your wilful ignorance 602. Blinde Balams wilful purpose 602. They make decrees expressely against Goddes worde 620. They take parte with Annas and Caiphas Ibidem Vnlearned Bishoppes slow bellies 623. Errour Idolatrie Superstition tyrannie Pompe 626. The Councel of Trident is a Conspiracie not a Councel 626. Princes Ambassadours be vsed as mocking stockes at the Councelles 631. VVith spite they leaue out Princes 635. O glorious Thraso 640. They set not a iote by any point of religion saue that whiche concernes their bellie and riotte 642. This is proude this is spiteful Ibidem Princes be despitefully scorned and abused by them 697. They harden their hartes against God and his Christe 715. They are menne farre more vngraceous and wicked then any diceplaiers be 728. Tyrannie of the Popes kingdome 732. They were fooles and madde menne 733. A very spiteful dealing 54. Content thy selfe good Reader with these few taken out of the whole heape To laie forthe al were to printe his Huge booke againe For of suche stuffe in manner and of vaine Scoffes the whole consisteth Nowe bicause M. Iewel hath laid together an other Heape of wordes culled out of my bookes which of his courtesie he would needes calle Scoffes and Scornes here to make an euen reckening with him I haue thought good to returne vnto him coine of the same stampe tolde out of his owne bagges though it be more cankred then mine is Scoffes and Scornes be vnseemely saith M. Iewel Defence pag. 8. Scoffes and Scornes against God his Churche and his Sainctes I trow ye would proue that God the Father made holy water and said Masse 496. Christe an Abbate 66. S. Peter said masse with a golden Cope and a triple Crowne 300. The Apostles had keies geuen them but no house to open 163. As if Christe and the Pope were ioined purchasers 608. If Christe were not Christe then S. Patrike should be Christe 231. Peter and Paule had neuer Papale Christianitie 674. Sir Clement Iacke of Andrew 536. The Romaine faith was heard of through out the whole worlde and so was the Capitole of Rome 437. So long as the Churche of Rome can speake for her selfe al is wel 715. The spirite of Rome 606. S. Augustines vnceasoned fantasies 370. Sacramentarie Scoffes VVho taught M. Harding that Christe hath change of diuers bodies 86. Your shoppes and gaineful boothes 333. meant of Aulters Came Christe to saue bread and wine 254. Came the Sonne of man from heauen to saue Accidentes 254. VVhere was Christes bodie euer promised to your Mouth 274 The poore Spiritual Fourmes and holy Accidentes are put to al the paines 261. The man in the moone newly Christened 37. How can a few droppes of cold water bring vs to the hope of resurrection 221. These be their keies of the kingdome of heauen 249. Scoffes against the Pope Bishoppes and Priestes One Principal Archangel Pope in heauen 100. The Emperour was the Popes Summoner 671. The Pope a special Maister Keie 160. The Pope hath the holy Ghoste I trow at his commaundement 724. The Pope a lorde Paramounte 161. The Popes owne Minions and Champions 468. Dame Ioane the Pope 374. This is one of the Cardinalle vertues of Rome to take tolle of Bawdrie 369. in marg Princehoode 〈◊〉 â—postolique ioily large wordes and carry great sounde â—â—â— VVhat if Christeâ— Vicare him selfe be Antichrist 433. In Margine Your Pope no more a Bishop then Annas your Priest no more a Priest then the Priest of Dagon or Baal 659. Maie Bishoppes 664. Blinde Sir Robert the Archebishop of Armache 597. Blinde Sir Robert of Scotland and M. Pates of England seely poore Bishoppes 714. The blessed Bishoppes of the Second Nicen Councel 502. These be the great VVorthies of the worlde 714. Scoffes particular and general M. Harding skippeth into Goddes chaire 23. M. Hardinges mystical Catholique eares 232. So coye and careful M. Harding is for holy Fourmes and his kingdom of Accidentes 248. M. Hardinges Almanake 22. How long hath M. Harding benne a wisard 209. M. Hardinges face died in Scarlet 183. M. Harding Proctor for the Stewes 370. M. Hardinges Dimi Communion 195. M. Hardinges yong vntiedy Argumentes 650. Albertus Pighius the stowtest Gallant of your Campe. 24. M. Harding wil trouble his Godfathers and cause them to geue him a new name 416. M. Hardinges mouthe no iuste measure 8. If you had not studied your Copia verborum you could neuer haue benne so copious 388. And do you know his harte by towting in his eare 157. In Margine Alas your poore Chickens would die for colde 28. No Haralde could lightly haue said more in the matter 496. Al the same is substantially proued by tâ—â—â—oâ—â—e and deliuerie of a horse 499. It is not a Fearnbushe Ergo it is a Foxe 255. It is concluded in Louaine in great solemne sadnesse c. M. Hardinges Beaupeeres of Louaine 492. Your innumerable Louain Vanities 537. Your Louanian diuinitie
and the Popes to be his successours He hath shewed also how the other Apostles were equal with Peter and how in other respectes they had lesse power for ordinarie continuance in their successours then Peter had But if I were of M. Iewels boasting humour I should now dissemble al this and write it in here a fresh as though nothing had benne said thereof before But I trowe wise men espie that smoky pride in him wel ynough I wisse lesse bookes might haue serued him for any good stuffe that is to be founde in them The fourth Booke conteineth a ful refutation of al that M. Iewel hath laid together in his pretensed Defence touching the Succession of Bishops in the Churche from the Apostles time vnto this present age Item a proufe of the necessitie of Confession WRITING the Confutation of the Apologie I had occasion to speake of the Succession of Bishoppes Thereto M. Iewel in his pretensed Defence hath replied at great length Wherein bicause he may perhaps to the vnlearned seme to haue some colour of aduantage against vs the matter being of good weight I iudge it not vnprofitable to bestow some labour and here to coÌ„fute his whole Defence touching that point whereby I doubte not it shal appeare how litle credite he deserueth if his sayinges be throughly examined where he blazeth forth most shew of learning That it maie appeare how directly he answereth the pointes of this Controuersie and of what pith his owne sayinges and how muche to the purpose his testimonies be and how truly alleged and that al be made the more plaine and cleere I wil reherse first the place of the Apologie that gaue me occasion to treat of Succession then the wordes of my Confutation against whiche M. Iewel bendeth the force of his Defence After this I wil laie forth his whole Defence sentence by sentence worde by worde as I finde it in his booke and so briefly as I can refel the same I am driuen to reherse that discourse of my Confutation againe bicause a great parte of the Defence depending thereof and being directed against the same onlesse it were againe by rehersal commended to the readers view and memorie our whole disputation would be obscure and vncertaine And this haue I donne also the rather to thintent the reader might haue that parte of my Confutation intier and whole whiche M. Iewel hath caused to be set forth in his booke pared hewed dismembred and altogether disgraced The Apologie parte 2. Cap. 5. Diuis 1. in the Defence Pag. 125. Furthermore vve saie that the miâ—ister ought laufully duely and orderly to be preferred to that office of the Church of God and that no man hath povver to vvrest him selfe into the holy Ministerie at his ovvne pleasure VVherefore these persons do vs the greater vvrong vvhiche haue nothing so common in their mouthes as that vve do nothing orderly and comely but al thinges troublesomly and vvithout order and that vve allovv euery man to be a priest to be a teacher and to be an interpretour of the scriptures Confutation fol. 56. a. Al from starre to starre leafte out by M. Ievvel Saing and doing are two thinges Ye saye wel in outward appearance Would God your doing were accordingly Albeit the manner of your saying had ben more coÌ„mendable if in so weighty a point you had spokeÌ„ more particularly and distinctly not so generally and confusely * Ye saye that the minister ought laufully to be called for so hath your Latine and duely and orderly to be preferred to that office of the Churche of God Why do ye not so why is not this obserued among you Gospellers What so euer ye meane by your Minister and by that office this are we assured of that in this your new Church Bishops Priestes Deacons Subdeacons or any other inferiour Orders ye haue none No holy orders among the gospellers Leâ—â— out by M. Ievvel In saying thus we speake not of our Apostates that be fledde from vs vnto your congregations Who as they remaine in the order which they receiued in the catholike Church so being diuided and cut of from the Church and excommunicate laufully they may not minister the sacramentes * For where as after the doctrine of your newe Gospel like the foreronners of Antichrist ye haue abandoned thexternal Sacrifice and priesthod of the newe Testament and haue not in your secte consecrated Bishops and therefore being without Priestes made with lawfull laying on of handes as Scripture requireth al holy Orders being geuen by Bishops only how can ye saie that any among you can laufully minister or that ye haue any lauful Ministers at al This then being so let me haue leaue to oppose one of these Defenders consciences And that for the better vnderstanding I may directe my wordes to a certaine person let him be the author of this Apologie or bicause his name to me is vnknowen let him be M. Iewel for with him gladly would I reason in this point the rather for acquaintaince and for that he beareth the name of a Bishop in that Churche where my selfe had a rome How saye you Syr minister Bishop ought the Minister to be laufully called ought he duely and orderly to be preferred to that office or as the Latine here hath promoted or put in authoritie ouer the Church in the Apologie this Defender saith yea Leaft out by M. Ievvel Then answer me directely How proue you your selfe laufully called to the roume you take vpon you to occupie First touching the ordinary Succession of Bishops from which as you knowe S. Iraeneus Tertullian Optatus and S. Augustine bring argument and testimonie of right and true religion do you allow the same with those fathers or no If not then dissent you from the learned and most vncorrupte antiquitie which is not reasonable neither then are you to be heard If yea then how can you recken vs vp your succession by which you may referre your imposition of handes and consecration to some of the Apostles or of their scholers as the foresaid fathers did to repel the nouelties of heresies and defende their continual possession of the Churche Which if ye go about how can ye but to the great hinderance of your cause bewraye your weake holde For whereas succession of doctrine must be ioyned with the succession of persons as Caluine in his institutions affirmeth and Beza auouched at the assemblie of Poyssi in Fraunce and we also graunt Succession of doctrine ioyned vvith succession of persons how many Bishoppes can you recken whom in the Churche of Sarisburie you haue succeded as wel in doctrine as in outward sitting in that chayre How many can you tel vs of that being your Predecessours in order before you were of your opinion and taught the faithful people of that Dioces the doctrine that you teache Dyd Bishop Capon teach your doctrine did Shaxton did Campegius did Bishop Audley Briefly did euer any Bishop of that See
of a bishops office by one that is not a bishop that perteineth to the consecration of a Bishop And wil you vnderstand what Epiphanius iudged of that wicked disorder He acknowledgeth it to be the part of men that of a certaine presumption of minds violently and besides all truth play the rash and dissolute wantons VVhat Epiphanius iudgeth of it For so the Greeke signifieth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Thus they be neither Priestes nor Deacons which be not consecrated laufully according to the order vsed in the Church that is to wit by bishops laufully consecrated but either by the people or the lay magistrate as it is in some places where this doctrine is professed or by monkes and friers Apostates or by excommunicate priestes hauing no bishoply power In Dialogo contra Luciferia nos Hereof S. Hierome saith notably Hilarius cùm Diaconus de Ecclesia recesserit c. Hilary forasmuch as he weÌ„t from the Church being a Deacon and is only as he thinketh the multitude of the world can neither consecrate the Sacrament of the aulter being without Bisshop and Priestes nor deliuer Baptisme without the Eucharist And where as now the man is dead with the man also the Sect is ended because being a Deacon he could not consecrate any clercke that should remaine after him And Church is there none which hath not a Priest SacerdoteÌ„ But letting go these fewe of litle regard that to them selues be both lay and Bisshops listen what is to be thought of the Church Thus S. Hierome there In whom leauing other thinges I note that if there be no Church where is no Priest where is your Church like to become after that our Apostates that now be fled froÌ„ vs to you shal be departed this life Leaft out by M. Ievvel By S. Hierome the English â—hurch shal be no Churche at al. And yet being with you as they be your Church is already in such state as S. Hierome reporteth that is no Churche at al howe so euer ye set foorth your newe gospel vnder the name of the Church of England Bucer being once charged to geue accompt of his vocation had no other shifte but to acknowledge for defence of his ministerie that he had taken Orders of a bishop after the rite and maner of the Catholike Church Luthers aduise touching Muncers vocation Sleidan recordeth that Luther himselfe wrote to the senate of Mulhusen concerning Muncer the preacher of the Anabaptistes who stirred the common people of Germanie to rise against their nobilitie that the senate should do wel to demaund of Muncer who committed to him the office of teaching and who had called him thereto And if he would name God for his authour that then they should require him to proue his vocation by some euident signe or miracle If he could not do that then he aduised them to put him awaye For this is the wont of God said he when so euer he willeth the accustomed forme and ordinarie maner to be changed to declare his wil by some signe * Of vvhat maner is the vocation of our super intendetâ— Therefore this being true it remaineth M. Iewel you tel vs whether your vocation be ordinarie or extraordinarie If it be ordinarie shewe vs the letters of your Orders At lest shewe vs that you haue receiued power to do the office you presume to exercise by due order of laying on of handes and consecration But order and consecration you haue not For who coulde geue that to you of al these newe ministers how so euer els you cal them whiche he hath not him selfe If it be extraordinarie as al that ye haue done hytherto is besides al good order shewe vs some signe or miracle If you faile in al these why ought not you to be put awaie * The Defenders haue nothing to say for defence of their vocatioÌ„ If you can shew no signe or miracle as your vertue promiseth vs none bring vs forth some example of your extraordinarie vocation out of the Stories of Christes Church that hath folowed the Apostles If you be destitute also thereof at lest shewe vs what prophete in the olde Testamente euer was heard extraordinarily without signe or miracle or testimonie of God * Leaft out by M. Ievvel Finally what can you answer to that Lib. 1. Epist 6. whiche may be obiected to you out of S. Cyprians epistle to Magnus touching Nouatian It was at those dayes a question whether Nouatian baptized and offered specially where as he vsed the forme manner and ceremonies of the Churche Cyprian denieth it Eusebius Ecclesiast Hist li. 6. cap. 43. in Graec. For he can not saith he be compted a Bisshop who setting at nought the Tradition of the Gospel and of the Apostles nemini succedens à seipso ordinatus est succeding no man is ordeined bisshoppe of him selfe For by no meanes may one haue or holde a Churche that is not ordeined in the Churche Leaft out by M. Ievvel M. Ievvel and the rest of his companions be no bishops but vsurpers of an vndue office and ministerie I leaue here to recite the rest of that Epistle perteining to this point and al against you for that it were to long Thus it is euident for as muche as you can neither prooue your doctrine by continual Succession of Priestes nor referre your Imposition of handes to any Apostle or Apostolike Bishoppe nor shewe your Vocation to be ordinarie for lacke of lauful ordination and consecration nor extraordinarie for lacke of Gods testimonie and approbation by signe or miracle or example of the olde or newe Testament that you are not laufully called to the administration of Doctrine and Sacramentes that you are not duely and orderly preferred to the Ministerie whiche you exercise that you go not being called that you runne not being sent Therefore we may iustly say that ye haue thrust your selfes into that Ministerie at your owne pleasure and lyst For though the Prince haue thus promoted you yet be ye presumers and thrusters in of your selues Wel landes and manours the Prince may geue you Priesthod and Bishophod the Prince can not geue you Ierem. 23. This being so we doo you no wrong as ye complaine in telling you and declaring to the world that touching the exercise of your Ministerie ye do nothing orderly or comely but al thinges troublesomly and without order Onlesse ye meane such order and comelines as theeues obserue among them selues in the distribution of their robberies Lastly if ye allowe not euery man yea and euery woman to be a Priest why driue ye not some of your felowes to recant that so haue preached why allow ye the bookes of your newe Euangelistes that so haue writen Leaft out by M. Ievvel And whether ye admitte al sortes of the common people to be your Ministers of the worde to teache the people and vnreuerently to handle the holy Scriptures or no our
example caÌ„not be fitly applied to M. Ievels purpose S. Augu. speaketh of doctrine M. Ievv of a particular facte bicause no Bishop of Rome taught that doctrine which they taught And you turne al the mater of doctrine to a manner of doing It were surely hard to proue that euer any one Pope not only of those 38. whom S. Augustine nameth but also of al the rest til this hower did say priuate Masse For if M. Iewel should put me to the proufe that Paulus tertius or Pius quartus Federicus Fregosius that noble and learned Bishop of Salerno or Bellaius that worthy Bishop of Paris or any the like who liued in our time had said Priuate Masse and that in such wise as if I were not hable to shew him when they said it where they said it and who were witnesses thereof I should not be credited for want of due proufe I were not hable to proue it either for that I liued not at Rome and in the places where they made their abode or elles bicause though I liued in those places I was not so curious nor careful to know what they did therin And so it would followe by this fond collection of M. Iewels Logique that euen yet to this daie no Pope nor other Bishop faith priuate Masse bicause I can not proue it and shew the circumstance where when and how it was donne Thinke you M. Iewel that the Religion of Christe dependeth vpon any particular facte of menne Is that your Diuinitie Al the Popes and al the Apostles agree with vs in Doctrine bicause wee can shewe diuerse Churches whiche haue benne planted of them and haue kepte from time to time the Religion whiche they receiued from hande to hande of them This is our demonstration of the Truthe This is that whiche Christe allowed when he commaunded his disciples to doo and keepe that which the Scribes and Pharisees who sate in Moyses chaire bad them to keepe and doo Euen so doo we M. Iewel we say priuate Masse so ye wil needes cal it bicause the Popes and other bishops who sit in Peters and in the other Apostles chaire doo tel vs that it is lawful to say priuate Masse And we doubte not also but that it hath benne vsed for euer to be said though the people either were not present or being present would not receiue with the priest as it is plaine in S. Chrysostome Chrysost homil 61. ad Pop. AntiocheÌ„ who stode at the Altare and did that which belonged to priestly duetie that is to say he said Masse and looked for some communicantes to come to receiue the communion but he stode in vaine for any that would come to him Yet did he stil come to the altare when so either the feaste or his deuotion required Iewel Pag. 129. But vvherefore telleth vs M. Harding this long tale of Succession Harding Bicause it is a special marke of the true Churche as a Lib. 3. cap. 3. Ireneus b De Praescript Tertullian c Lib. 2. contra Parmen Optatus and S. d Ep. 165. Augustine doo teach and your Church hath no Succession that is thirty yeres olde nor any Bishop at al lawfully planted But ours hath a Succession of a thowsand fiue hundred threescore and eight yeres with a great number of Bishops in al countries and times Ievvel Haue these men their ovvne Succession in so safe recorde VVho vvas then the bishop of Rome next by succession vnto Peter VVho vvas the second vvho the third vvho the fourth Irenaeus reckeneth them together in this order Petrus Linus Anacletus Clemens Epiphanius thus Petrus Linus Cletus Clemens Optatus thus Petrus Linus Clemens Anacletus Clemens saith that he him selfe vvas next vnto Peter and then must the reckening go thus Petrus Clemens Linus Anacletus Hereby it is cleare that of the first foure bishops of Rome M. Harding can not certainely tel vs vvho in order succeded other And thus talking so much of Succession they are not vvel hable to blase their ovvne Succession Harding Here is a deepe consideration I promise you What if al writers being sure of these foure Bishops of Rome yet be not sure who was before other Is therefore our Succession vncertaine We are wel assured that Peter was the first and after him there was a Second a Third and a Fourth We are also assured that the same were Linus Cletus Clemens Anacletus And what skilleth it vnto vs The true order of the first Popes succeding one another Damasus in pontificalt Clemens epist. 1. TertulliaÌ„ De praescr who was Second who Third who Fourth But now al this busines is ended if we make a distinction And that is this S. Peter being yet aliue made two Suffraganes Linus and Cletus who might doo the outward busines of his office whiles him selfe did attende to praier and preaching So saith Damasus in the life of S. Peter Againe when S. Peter saw his death to be at hand he chose Clement to be his successour as we reade in S. Clementes epistle and in Damasus Yea Tertullian also confesseth that the Church of Rome sheweth Clement to haue benne ordeined of Peter Thus were there three Bishops in Rome but not three Bishops of Rome when S. Peter died of the whiche S. Clement had most right to succede But he hauing seene before the good experience of Linus and Cletus did yelde the administration to them one after the other first to Linus and then to Cletus after whose death Clement him selfe gouerned the Apostolike See And after him came Anacletus whom some Greeke Writers tooke to be one with Cletus Thus are al matters reconciled DiscussioÌ„ of al doubte touching thorder of the first Popes in Rome Ruffin in Praefat. ad lib. Recognit And that not by me onely but by Ruffinus eleuen hundred yeres past who also receiued it of his Forefathers He saith Quidam requirunt quomodo cùm Linus Cletus in vrbe Roma ante Clementem hunc fuerint episcopi ipse Clemens ad Iacobam scribens sibi dicat a Petro docendi Cathedram traditâ—m â—cuius rei hanc accepimus esse rationem Quòd Linus Cletus fuerunt quidem ante Clementem episcopi in vrbe Roma sed superstite Petro vt illi episcopatus curam gererent ipse vero Apostolatus impleret officium Sicut inuenitur etiam apud Caesaream fuisse vbi cùm ipse esset presens Zachaeum tamen à se ordinatum habebat Episcopum Et hoc modo vtrumque verum videbitur vt illi ante Clementem numerentur Episcopi Clemens tamen post obitum Petri docendi susceperit sedem Some aske this question howe Clement him selfe writing to Iames saith that Peter leafte to him the Chaire of teaching whereas Linus and Cletus were Bishops in the Citie of Rome before this Clement Of whiche thing we haue learned this to be the reason That Linus and Cletus were bishops in the Citie of Rome but in the life
yet haue benne more plaine if you M. Iewel had not practized your olde false sleight in cutting of my wordes For when I had asked whether D. Capon Shaxton Campegius or Audley or any other bishops of Sarisburie taught your doctrine I answered thereunto it is most certaine they did not How be it I staied not there but went forward to remoue that your obiection of Capon and Shaxton whiche I forsawe you would make And thereunto I said thus How so euer those two first named Capon M. Ievvel left out al these wordes bicause thei ansvvered him fully and Shaxton onely in some parte of their life taught amisse how afterward they repented abhorred your heresies and died Catholikes it is wel knowen Now beside these whome els can you name Al these wordes of myne you leafte out M. Iewel as if I had neuer printed them You leafte them out not onely by not answering them but also you did not suffer them to be printed in your booke emong myne owne wordes leaste you should haue benne answered before you had replied as most times you are as it should appeare if it would please the Reader but to vew and peruse my woordes ouer againe and diligently to conferre them with yours Which I wish him to doo not only for trial of this point but also al others whereof so euer both we haue treated And he shal say you were answered before you made the Replie confuted before you made your pretensed Defence But what conscience haue you that liue at least mainteine the life of your estimation among them of your Secte by lying by dissembling by cutting of by adding vnto by mangling your Doctours briefly by deceiuing the reader one waie or other You were ashamed to haue no predecessour at al in the See of Sarisburie and to be like Nouatian or Donatus and such other the like Heretikes And therefore you name two Predecessours both which protested at their death that you and al your felowes are Heretikes and repented that euer they communicated with you so farre as they did Thus you come of your selfe as the Deuil doth and shal come in his chief member Antichrist And you come not holding by lineal Succession nor by lawful Sending as Christ came being sent of his father and being borne of the seede of Dauid and of Abraham But you are without Predecessours and I am sure if God for our great sinnes forsake not our Coūtrie you shal not long haue Successours Iewel For the rest of the bishops that vvere before them vvhat faith they held and vvhat they either liked or misliked by their vvritinges or sermons it doth not greatly appeare Harding What neede wordes when dedes speake It is euident they kepte that which they receiued of S. Augustine our Apostle and that which was before and afterward beleeued in al Christendome Thei said Masse they adoured Christes body in the blessed Sacrament who doubteth of it They asked their cōfirmation of the bishop of Rome and acknowledged him to be the Apostle S. Peters Successour Therefore they were not your Predecessours in faith and doctrine you may be assured M. Iewel Iewel I trust they held the foundatiō and liued and died in the faith of Christ Harding Now now M. Iewel you haue bewraid M. Ievvel be wraith him selfe what you teach in corners now that lurking heresie is cropen out whereof I spake in my Preface to you before my laste Reiondre touching the Sacrifice of the Masse There I shewed that the Catholike Church must be beleeued in al pointes of Religion and that they were Heretiques who persuaded them selues that it was inough to beleeue certaine Articles of the faith and to let the rest alone not regarding whether this or that be true But what cal you the Foundation of the true faith You knowe that al your Predecessours acknowleged the Popes Supremacie said Masse and beleeued the doctrine of the seuen Sacramentes and taught so Otherwise they had ben noted for Heretikes of others who liued together with them as you are of them who liue with you Seing then you know they did so what can you meane by the foundation but onely the beleefe of the Trinitie and of Christes birth death and Ascension As though it were inough to beleue those thinges what so euer become of the reste Math. 12. Math. 18. Luc. 10. But Christ saith he that is not with me is against me He that heareth not the Church let him be to thee as a heathē and a publicane He that heareth you heareth me he that despiseth you despiseth me and him that hath sent me And S. Paule saith 1. Tim. 3. Iacob 2. Agust epistol 29. ad Hieron The Church is the piller and sure stay of truth And S. Iames he that faileth in one is made giltie of all that is as S. Augustine expoundeth it he that faileth or sinneth against Charitie is giltie of al other faultes Nowe charitie is broken if vnitie be broken and vnitie is broken if the bishops beleeue not euery Article of the faith expressely which the Churche teacheth to be expresly beleeued Therefore either your predecessours were with you or against you There is no midle or meane With you they were not bicause they taught seuen Sacramentes and the Popes supremacie and the Sacrifice of the Masse c. Therefore they were against you And then ye are the first of that faith and doctrine whiche now ye teache You therefore came of your selfe and are without Predecessours Iewel 131. If they had liued in these dayes and seene that you see they vvould not haue ben partakers of yours vvilfulnesse Harding These are the wordes of an Antichrist who seeking to make him selfe equal with Christ doth vse such Phrases by his wicked members as Christe did vse concerning his owne person In deede Christ and only Christ might say such wordes bicause he only shewed such miraculous workes that were hable to haue turned Sidō and Tyrus Ioan. 2. 10. or any other hard harted people But what haue we seene in these dayes M. Iewel which would haue ben hable to haue made al your Predecessours to haue yelded vnto your new faith Haue ye spoken with al tonges as the Apostles did Nay ye haue cōfoūded and dispersed them as it was done at the building vp of the toure of Babylō For whereas in holy matters and specially in the Church Seruice we seemed to be deliuered from the curse of the Diuisiō of tongues bicause many nations of diuers lāguages were vnited and knit together in one Latine or Greeke Church Seruice you go about to set the worlde againe as farre a part by diuers vulgare tongues as euer it was before Christes cōming Haue ye built vs new Churches or schooles or hospitalles or colleges Nay ye haue pulled downe the olde and defaced them to the vttermost of your power Haue ye made peace in the earth and reconciled al dissensions Ye haue rather diuided the subiecte