church if we could name such notable persons as you speake of in all ages florishing in their gouernment and ministerie And it is a good argument that the Popish church is not the church of Christe because it was neuer hidden sence it first sprang vp in so much that you can name all the notable persons in all ages in their gouernment and ministerie and especially the succession of Popes you can reherse in order vpon your fingers in which beadroole neuerthelesse you must name many tyrants many traytors one whore many whoremongers many Sodomites many murtherers many poysenors many sorcerers and Necromancers and from Boniface the third all blasphemous heretikes and Antichristes But our church which hath not had so many registers chroniclers and remembrancers hath perhaps fewer but yet honester men to name we can name Peter Paule Mathew Iohn c. Marke Luke Timothe Agabus Epaphras c. Iustinus Irenaeus Cyprianus Athanasius Hylarius Ambrosius Augustinus c. Gyldas Bertramus Marsilius de Padua Ioan. de Ganduno Bruno Andagauensis VVickleue Iohn Hus Hierome of Prage c. With the first namely Apostles Euangelistes and Prophets we consent wholly in all pointes of doctrine with the rest in the cheefe and most substantiall articles of faith alwayes agreeing with any man so farre as he agreeth with the worde of God. 3 And if he can proue vnto me that their Church hath neuer lacked the same appointed officers or that any Church or Congregatiō but ours hath kept that charge thē I recant FOr some of those officers I haue twise aunswered before that they were not ordeined to continue alwaies with the church wherefore they are not to be exacted of vs but such officers as are necessary for the conseruation of God his people in the vnitie of faith and the knowledge of Christ our Church hath neuer lacked although in time of the great defection and Apostasie whereof S. Paule doth prophesie 2. Thess. 2. there were but few as there were but fewe members of Christ his Church notwithstanding that through iniurie of the time the remembraunce of all their names is not come vnto vs And although we could rehearse in order as many successions in our Church as the papistes boast of in theirs yet were that nothing to proue it to be the Church of Christ which must be tried onely by the Scriptures as S. Augustine sayth in his booke de vnitate Ecclesiae against the Donatistes cap. 16. Sed vtrum ipsi Ecclesiam teneant non nisi diuinarum Scripturarum canonicis libris ostendant quia nec nos propterea dicimus nobis credere oportere quod Ecclesia sumus quia ipsam quam tenemus commendauit Mileuitanus Optatus vel Mediolanensis Ambrosius vel alij innumerabiles nostrae communionis Episcopi c. But whether they holde the Church or no let them shew none otherwise but by the canonicall bookes of holy Scripture for we our selues doe not therefore say that men must beleeue vs that we are in the Church because we hold the same Churche which Optatus of Mileuitum hath commended or Ambrose of Millayn or innumerable Bishops of our communion Euen so we require at the Papistes handes that shewe them selues to holde the Church not by succession of Bishops or rehearsing of their names but onely by the Scriptures for although we did rehearse innumerable names of Bishops in orderly succession on our side we would not require men to beleue vs but onely because we proue the doctrine of our Church by the authoritie of the Scriptures But as for the popish church neyther hath nor euer had any of those officers which S. Paule speaketh of for Apostles Euangelistes and Prophets she can chalenge by no reason seing she refuseth to be tried by their doctrine vttered in their writings in steede of pastors teachers she hath wolues dūme dogges or false prophets which either teach not at all or else teach the doctrine of deuills the dreames of men And further I would desire none other place in all the Scripture to ouerthrow the popish Hierarchie which is the greatest glory of their Church then this place of Paule Ephes. 4. he speaketh of Apostles Euangelists Prophets Pastors and teachers But where are Popes Cardinalls popish archbishops Bishops Preestes Deacōs Subdeacons Exorcistes Cantors Acolyts Ostiares Monkes Friars Chanōs Nunnes c. Wherfore I cōclude that all these popish orders are no offices in the Church of christ And especially seeing the Apostle both in this place Eph. 4. and 1. Cor. 12. by these offices proueth the vnitie of minde he acknowledgeth no Pope as one supreme head in earth which might be very profitable as the Papists say to mainteine this vnity for if there had bene any such office appoynted of God S. Paule in no wise woulde haue omitted it especially when it made so notably for the confirmation of his purpose which was vnitie To conclude if it be sufficient or any thing worth to rehearse the names of them that haue orderly succeded in all ages in the bishops sees in an outwarde face of the Church the Greeke Church is able to name as many as the Latine Church and in as orderly succession Wherefore if you be as ready to performe as to promise you recant The nynth article may be deuided into nyne demaundes 1 And for the necessary vse and execution of the foresayd offices they must further be asked what Sacramentes the Protestants ministred for the space of a thousand yeares togither in which they confesse their congregations to haue bene neare or else wholy hidden THey ministred those Sacramentes which Christ did institute namely the Sacrament of baptisme and the Sacrament of the body and blood of Christ at such times as the cruell tyrannie of you Papistes did not hinder them to come togither for such purposes 2 VVhat correction they kept and discipline for offenders THey did vse such discipline as was vsed in S. Cyprians time when persecution hindered not the free course of it As he doth often complaine in the places aboue rehearsed They did admonish secretly before witnesses and when persecution stayed them not they did also excommunicate 3 To whome they did preach their Fayth TO such as woulde geue them hearing as VVickleue to the Englishmen Iohn Hus to the Bohemians VValdo to the Frenchmen and so of the rest 4 How did they reproue heresies THey reproued heresies by the worde of God and patient sufferinge of your tyrannie the one you may reade in their workes that are yet extant of VVickleue Bertrame Hus c. The other in histories of your owne writers 5 VVhere did their principall Pastors sit in Iudgement I Might aske you where the Apostles did sit in iudgement and you are neuer able to shew me for I reade as one sayth that they stoode often to be Iudged but I neuer reade that they sat in iudgement vpon others And so I aunswere of the principall Pastors of our Church especially in time of persecution 6
breaketh her faith of Baptisme shal be damned for mariage is not worth a rush For S. Paule sayth not she shal be damned for mariage but because she hath reiected the first faith that is such wanton young houswifes procede so farre that at length they forsake widowhood christianity and all But if M. Allen were posed where he findeth this worde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the Scripture vsed for a vowe or promise made to God perhaps he would aunswere he is no Graecian then let him pose D. Hardinge or some other with the same question and with all let them shew how the first faith can be expounded for the last vowe that a body hath made if he haue made more then one For the Papists holde that these women made one vowe in baptisme an other of there widowhood What so euer M. Iewell hath affirmed against the Papistes he hath so substantially and learnedly defended that he neede not to haue any other man to aunswere for him Therefore if it were not to choke M. Allen in his owne coller I woulde trauaile no farther in this question The Church you say can not erre and that company is the Church which hath the Pope for their head if therefore it can be proued that the Pope and all they that take his part haue erred it is sufficiently shewed that the Church may erre S. Augustine was in this error as you will not deny that the Sacrament of the body and bloud of Christ was to be ministred vnto infants but of the same opinion he affirmeth that Innocentius Bishop of Rome and all the Church in his tyme was therefore the Pope and all the Church did erre reade Augustine contra Iulianum lib. 1. cap. 2. where he sayth of Innocentius Qui denique paruulos definiuit nisi manducauerint carnem filij hominis vitam prorsus habere non posse which hath defined that infantes except they eate the flesh of the sonne of man can haue no life at all in them And by eating the flesh of the sonne of mā he meaneth eating the Sacramēt of his flesh and bloud as it is euident to them that wil bestow the reading of Augustines discourse in that place An aunsvvere to certayne obiections of the aduersaries moued vpon the diuersitie of meanings vvhich they see geuen in the fathers vvritings of the Scriptures before alleaged for purgatory and that this doctrine of the Church standeth not against the sufficiencie of Christes passion CAP. XI 1 BVt nowe the other side seeketh for some shiftes and draweth backe in this extremity thus That the places of the olde and new Testament now rather alleaged for my purpose and the proofe of purgatory though they be thus expounded of the doctours yet they may haue some other meaninge and sometimes be construed otherwise by the fathers them selues To which I aunswere and freely confesse that they so may haue in deede but the aduersary must take this with all that the pillars of Christes Church woulde neuer haue geuen this sense amongest other or rather before all other meaninges that probability or conferēce of scriptures did driue them vnto had it conteined a plaine faulsehood as the heretike supposeth it doth Yea had not the doctrine of Purgatory bene a knowne trueth in all ages it should neuer by the graue iudgemēt of so many wise men haue atteyned any colour of scripture For though many meaninges be founde of most harde places in all the Bible yet there is no sense geuen by any approued doctour that in it selfe is false And thinke you diuerse textes of the holy Scripture coulde haue caryed a false perswasion of Purgatory downe from the Apostles dayes to our time for true doctrine Marke well and you shall perceiue that the Church of Christ hath euer geuen roome to the diuersitie of mens wittes the diuision of graces and sondry giftes in exposition of most places of the whole testament with this prouiso alwayes that no man of singularity should father any falsehood or vntrueth vpon any texte but otherwise that euery man might abounde in his meaning Mary falsehood she neuer suffered one moment to take holde or bearing of any scripture vnreprehended Ecclesia multa tolerat sayth S. Augustine tamen quae sunt contra fidem vel bonam vitam non probat nectacet nec facit the Church beareth many thinges yet such thinges as be hourtfull to faith or good life she neuer approueth nor doth them her selfe nor holdeth her peace when she seeth them done by others Thereof we haue a goodly example in our owne matter So long as any conuenient meaning might be found out by the holy writers of that place alleaged out of S. Paule for such as shoulde be saued through fire she liked and allowed the same Some proued that the elect must be saued by long sufferance some said the tribulation of this life and world must trie mens faith workes some saide the greefe of minde in loosing that which they ouer much loued was the burning fire of mans affections some woulde haue the greuous vexation of departure out of this life to be a purgatory paines some construed the texte of the fire of conflagration that shall purge the workes of many in the latter day finally they all agreed that the temporall torment of the worlde to come is litterally noted and especially meant by the fire which the Apostle speaketh of All these so litle do disagree amongest them selues that not onely by diuerse men but of one man they might well all be geuen And being all in them selfe very true the holy Church so liketh and alloweth them eche one that yet by the common iudgement of all learned men that meaning for Purgatory paines she approueth as the most agreeable sense to the texte and whole circumstance of the letter But as soone as Origen went about to proue by the same scripture that all wicked men shoulde at length be saued after due purgation by fire then this pillar of trueth seeing an open falsehood gathered by the scripture of Gods worde coulde susteine no longer She set vp against this errour her pastors the graue fathers of our faith who ceased not as occasion serued to geue men warning of the deceite intended not onely still mainteining the doctrine of Purgatory but also expressely condemning all the reprehenders thereof as hereafter it shall be better declared and so misliking no sense that in it selfe was true the meaning of Purgatory yet hath bene of all the learned counted so certaine that in geuing any other likely exposition that was euer added with all as most consonant to the will and wordes of the writers So doth Theodoretus so doth S. Augustine and so in a maner did they all And as the saide holy doctour saith with whose wordes I am much delited by cause he of all other maketh trueth stand most plainely vpon it selfe One texte of scripture may well haue so many vnderstandings as may
r. praeponeÌ„da 22. in a. r. in the. 24. vvhen r. vvheÌ„ the. 71.20 vvhere rea vvere and the 22. to reade in 78.26 that you â—avv a bastard church r. that you being a bastard church haue 87.34 Commentualls rea Conuentualles 91.32 that he rea then he 92.30 cultiued r. coÌ„tinued 97.1 your reade youres 99.13 there rea therefore 14. vinci reade vincè In the aunswere of a true Christian c. pag. 14. li. 6 for that r. theÌ„ 22.21 conseites r. conserues 23.19 they made a cushioÌ„ reade they made mariage a chushion 25.37 fast reade facte 26.37 canche rea couche 30.35 greatest rea great 31.1 reade instrumentes for the defence 46.33 for reade farre 47.30 sinnes reade sinner â—9 19 praedicate rea praeiudicate 64.37 fauteles r. fruictles 87.6 heauie reade hearie 89.2 as reade or 92.6 bitter reade better 95.31 paltinge r. peltinge 102.15 r. liklihodes nuÌ„bred 121.29 conuenientes reade conuenienter 127.13 r. to death a sinne not c. li. 28.10 rea to 139.34 vnrecoÌ„cyled reade that are reconciled 143.2 you reade her 151.27 hath rea hauing 156.5 can not reade can stande c. 205.29 to his brother rea to his brethren 210.14 faste reade facte â—24 31 reade forsakers 232.38 sorovving r. saying 238.10 clame r. exclame 248.1 an reade any 249.23 praie reade praied 255.19 Tecta reade Tecla 259.37 toti reade hi. 262.7 after vvritinges make a ful poinct l. 10. Troianus reade Traianus 14. BarlauÌ„ r. Barlaam 16. Ephraim r. Ephreem 265.27 and 29. Rhenamus reade Rhenanus 268.36 knavv rea knaue 277.17 shoulde seme reade as it shoulde seme 283.2 Capth r. Chapter 284.30 after decree reade concerning that vvhich vvas not c. 286.31 put out he 299.19 had reade hath 295.11 xemia rea xenia 307.8 mistrusted reade misconstrued 316.2 you vvil r. you vvil not 23. then rea thou 334.19 criall reade triall 335.31 put out in 347.1 same reade sunne right reade light 350.6 r. deceiueth c. 361.16 vnto reade in 361.29 profatam rea profoctam 364.31 vve before reade before vve 378.17 vindicemus reade iudicemus and line 37. either reade other 373.11 stringe r. springe 374.10 Consilio Meleuitano r. CoÌ„cilio Mileuitano 382.19 CommoÌ„ r. Cannon 386.31 degree r. pedigree 391.25 thou reade there 396.1 God reade man. 397.24 hidden r. sudden 399.15 as for vvitnesse reade for vvitnesses 406.6 the matter reade thy matter 409.32 make a full poincte after in deed and line 22. put out the full poincte after describeth 435.16 sparte r. sponte and line 29. superstition reade supposition 441.34 parleis rea paruis 443.2 vvhen rea vvhere 31. li. aliquid r. aliquod 447.2 strife reade stripe 455.33 named r. varied li. 34. shall rea should AN ANSVVER OF A TRVE CHRISTIAN TO A COVNTERFAIT CATHOLIKE The proposition of the Aduersarie CHrist did commit at his departure hence the testimony of that truth for which he died and the conuersion of the Nations to the beleefe in him to the true church of God which then stoode principally and almost onely in the persons of the Apostles and a fewe more that by their preachings and those afterward of their calling the Christian religion might be planted in all Nations beginning at Ierusalem and so proceeding to the coastes and corners of the earth AN ANSVVERE TO THE PROPOSITION I Graunt that our Sauiour Christ at his departure hence commaunded his Apostles as principal members of his Church though not the greatest part of it to preach the doctrine which he confirmed by his death vnto all nations beginning at Ierusalem and so forth according to his saying Goe therefore and teach all Nations baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Sonne and of the holy Ghost Teaching them to obserue all thinges what so euer I haue commaunded you Matth. 28. Whereuppon I chalenge the Papist that if he be able to proue that the doctrine of poperie is all that trueth and nothing but that trueth for which Christ dyed and which he commaunded the Apostles to teach I will acknowledge the popish church to be the Church of Christ. The first article conteyneth 3. demandes 1 First I aske of the protestant what Church that was which conuerted all these cuntries that be now Christian to the faith of Christ IF you meane by Christians true Christians and by the faith of Christ the true faith of Christ I answere only the true Church of Christ hath had the worde of God and sacraments as meanes which God vseth to subdue al nations vnto the obedience of the faith as was the primitiue Church of the Apostles which hath continued vnto this daye by succession not of personnes and places but of faith and truth wherefore if the Papist can proue that we holde not the same faith and trueth vnto which the Apostles conuerted the nations we refuse to be called the Church or Congregation of Christ. But if by Christians and Christian faith you meane all them that professe the name of Christ in the whole worlde I aunswere that the true Church of Christ did not conuert them all for in Aethiopia there are yet people conuerted by the false apostles which taught circumcision and obseruation of the lawe in which heresie they continue vnto this day and it is manifest by all histories that the nations of the Alanes Gothes and Vandales were first conuerted by the Arrians 2 And let him shew vnto me that euer his Church conuerted any people or lande in the earth from Idolatrie or Gentility or Iudaisme to the true Religion of Christ or that this his fayth was taught to any Nation in steede of true Christianity WE are members of that Church which conuerted all landes in the earth that are conuerted from Idolatry Gentility Iudaisme or heresie to the true Religion of Christ and we affirme that the Apostles taught none other faith in steede of true Christiantie but that which we hold as we are readie to proue by the worde of God And at this daye the most parte of Europe is conuerted from Idolatrie heresie and Antichristianitie vnto the same true faith that we mainteine as in England Scotland Ireland France Germany Denmarke Suetia Bohemia Polonia by publike authoritie in Spaigne and Italie a great numbre vnder persecution and tyrannie Also of the Iewes no small numbre are conuerted to our religion since the rising vp of the Gospell in our dayes 3 Or any Church but the common Catholike Church to haue don that and I recant BEcause you meane by the common Catholike not the true Catholike but the popish church First I denie that euer the popish church conuerted any people to the true faith Secondly I denie that the popish church hath conuerted all nations to the profession of Christ For it is shewed before that the false Apostles and Arians conuerted some nations to the profession of Christes name but yet to false religion And it is also manifest by histories that the Grecians
be Sainctes in heauen Let the Prince make you aunswere for the continuance of such callēders for we haue not to do with them Neuerthelesse because you speake of a Callendar that is vsed euery where you declare that you haue small experience in Callendars for euery cuntry hath them diuers in most dayes except holy dayes and in some cuntry Callendars such dayes are festiuall to those Saincts that haue not their names in Callendars of other cuntries yea it may be doubted whether they haue their names in the booke of life If you sawe a Bohemians Callendar perhaps if you shoulde see Iohn Hus and Ierom of Prage which your church condemned for heretikes and haue as solemne feastes in the Callender as Peter and Paule wherefore we acknowledge those to be Sainctes in deede not whose names are continued in the Callendars of men but are written in the booke of life of the Lambe that was slaine from the beginning of the worlde Apoc. 13. 2 And if it can be proued by any man of the Protestancy that these were either of the Protestants Congregation or beleefe when they were aliue IT is sufficiently proued against you of the Papistrie that all they whome we acknowledge to be Sainctes in heauen are members of the same mysticall bodie of Christ that we are and hold the onely foundation that we hold which is Iesus Christ and although some of them builded straw and stubble vpon the same foundation yet the Lorde hath not imputed it vnto them But wheras the Patriarches Prophetes and Apostles were cheefe lightes and pillers of the church of Christ the daye is yet to come and euer shal be that all you of the Papistrie shal be able to charge vs with one pointe of our faith contrary to the doctrine of the Patriarches Prophetes and Apostles 3 Or canonized and allowed for Sainctes by the Protestantes Church when they were deade or by any other Church then I recant OVr Church doth take all them that shew the fruicts of a liuely faith to be Sainctes while they be aliue as well as after their death and we say with Dauid All my delight is in the Sainctes that are in the earth Psal. 16. and with S. Paule VVe labour to comprehend with all Sainctes what is the length breadth depth and heigth and to know the loue of christ Ephes. 3. Finally the scripture teacheth vs to call all them that are sanctified in the bloude of Christ and called to the felowship of the Gospell holy and Sainctes of God. 1. Cor. 1. Ephes. 1. c. Wherefore your Popish church doth great iniury to the Sainctes of God first because she doth not so accompt them while they liue and secondly because she referreth the canonization of them only to the Pope who not for their holy life maketh them Sainctes but for the holy honger of golde as appeare by Pope Iuly 2. who woulde not canonize king Henry the sixt at the request of king Henry the seuenth vnder an vnreasonable summe of money If that summe of money had bene paide he shoulde haue bene a sainct though he had not deserued not for his vertue And because that summe of money was not paide he might not be canonized although his godlinesse neuer so much deserued Againe of what force your Canonization is to be esteemed we may learne by a fact of Pope Boniface the 8. who condemned digged vp and burned the bodie of Hermannus in Ferraria 30. yeares after his buriall who had bene worshipped for a sainct aboue 20. yeares before as witnesseth Platina and other Gregorie the seuenth canonized Pope Liberius which was an Arrian as S. Hieronym testifieth Moreouer if I shoulde likewise demande of you what Pope canonized Peter Paule and the rest of the Apostles yea most of the Martyrs of the primitiue Church you shall neuer be able to shew me either what Pope did it or that any Pope did it For seeing none may canonize but the Pope in your church and you can not proue that the Pope hath canonized the Apostles and cheefe Martyrs you can not proue that your church hath canonized the Apostles and principall Martyrs But it is manifest that your canonization is taken from the heathen Senate of Rome which chalenged authority to make Gods whome they them selues thought best And if I shoulde rippe vp the most parte of those Sainctes which haue bene canonically canonized by the Pope it were an easie matter to finde them heretikes traitors Necromancers Whoremongers and whores as you may reade in Bales Votaries aboundantly beleuing his reporte no farther than he alleageth his Author where you maye finde it Wherefore it were wisedome for you not to depend vpon the Pope his Canonization but vpon God his approbation and to recante The 8. article conteyneth 3. demandes 1 And because Christ as S Paule sayeth hath established in his Church some Apostles some Prechers some Teachers and Doctors euen vntill his comming againe I aske the Protestant what Church that is which is able to shew proue the continuance and vse of the saide functions euer sence Christes time by plaine accompt of orderly Succession I Aunswere the Papist that Christ hath geuen to his Church some Apostles some Prophetes some Euangelistes some Pastors and Teachers Ephes. 4. and 1. Cor. 12. And we are able to shew proue that we continue in that vnitie of faith and knowledge of the Sonne of God for which ende such offices were ordeyned But whereas you require that we should shew you the continuance of those functions by orderly succession from Christes his time vntill our dayes you declare how small skill you haue in vnderstanding the scriptures for the offices of Apostles Euangelistes and Prophetes were not appoincted to continue alwayes in the Church but for a time vntill the Gospell had taken roote in the worlde Moreouer whereas you requier an orderly succession according to persons or places you are neuer able to proue that any such thing was promised to the Church that we should shew you the performance thereof in our Church Otherwise we doubt not but God hath alway stirred vp some faithfull teachers that haue instructed his Church in the necessarie poinctes of Christian Religion Although the worlde and the church of Antichrist did not alwayes see them 2 And is able to name you by the histories of all ages the notable personnes of all the forsaide states in their gouernment and ministerie AGaine I answere you that you are not able to name me any text of scripture by which you can proue that al these offices must haue perpetual cōtinuance in the church of Christ nor yet that any of them should kepe an ordinarie succession of place or persons But contrariwise seeing it was prophecied that the church should flie into the wildernes that is be driuen out of the sight and knowledge of the wicked and be so narrowly persecuted of the Romish Antichrist for a longe season it were a token our church were not the true
which we are iustified 2 Or in thinges where they doubt be contented to submit their seuerall meaninge to the iudgement of their Superiours THe Greeke church in doubtes will be ruled by the Patriarch of Constantinople and so will the rest of the Orientall churches by their cheefe Patriarches and bishops And the Protestants in Europe will also be ruled by their Superiours so farre as their superiors are ruled by Gods his worde 3 And to that communion and companie wherof they be name any companie of men agreeing and thus humbly affected in Christes Religion sauing the blessed fellowship and members of the Catholike communion and I recant TO the communion and company of the Grecians I name the Moscouites and Russians agreeing in Religion and so humbly affected and these are not of the fellowship that you call the Catholike communion Among the Protestants to the church of Saxonie I name the church of Dennemarcke or to the church of Helâ—etia the church of France or to the church of England the church of Scotlande but so that none of these allow any consent or submission but to the Truth which must be tried onely by God his worde And seeing none of these are of the Popish communioÌ„ if your promise be any thing worth you must recant The 16. article conteyneth one demande and one chalenge Furthermore name any one man that is confessed on both sides by the iudgement of the world to be holy and learned a member of the true Church in what age soeuer you list sence Christes time and proue him to haue bene in all articles of Faith of the Protestants meaninge SEeing you geue so large scope I will name S. Paule who I thinke is coÌ„fessed on both sides to be holy and learned and a member of the true Church whome I can proue by his writinges that in all articles of faith he taught the same which we beleeue And for triall of this because it woulde requier a whole volume if I shoulde proue euery particular article wherein we dissent from you Papistes If you will name an article wherein we agree not with S. Paule If I be not able to proue that we agree with him in the meaninge thereof I will reuoke that article and agree with you therein Yea if I bring not the aduersaries them selues to acknowledge in the ende him to be wholy against their doctrine in diuers of articles of great importance and therefore that he coulde not be of their church I recant YOu shall neuer bring vs neither in the beginning nor in the end to acknowledge that S. Paule is against vs in any article of our Faith but we agree wholy with him Neuerthelesse I know what you meane will not be afraide to vtter Forasmuch as immediatly after the Apostles time corruption entred into the Church which was hardly kept out while they liued as we maye learne by the Epistle to the Corinthians you thinke that we dare not depende vpon any one mans iudgement and therein you are not deceiued for we must depende onely vppon Gods worde But where you saye there is none but he dissenteth from vs in diuers articles of great importance you saye vntruely for you are not able to proue that Iustinus Martyr or Irenaeus two of the most ancient authenticall writers that the Church next vnto the Apostles had are against vs in any point of doctrine wherein we differ from you Yet are there certaine errors in them which neither you nor we allow as is touched before in the answere to the 11. article 1. deman But they are both wholly against you in diuers articles of your doctrine and namely in transubstantiatioÌ„ which is one of the greatest articles of Poperie as Irenaeus in the 34. cap. of his 4. booke Contra haereses Quemadmodum enim qui est a terra panis c.. Euen as the breade â–ª which is of the earth after it hath receyued the inuocation of God is not now common breade but the Eucharistie or breade of thankes geuing consisting of two thinges earthly heauenly so our bodies receyuing the Eucharistie are not now corruptible hauing hope of resurrection Here you see plainely that Irenaeus affirmeth the sacrament after consecration to consist of the earthly substance of breade which maye better be vnderstoode when we know that he reasoneth against such heretikes as denied the world to be made by God saying that he woulde neuer haue made so great a mysterie of bread which is a creature of the world if the worlde had not bene made by him Iustinus in his second Apologie to the Emperour 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. We doe not receiue these thinges as common breade and a common cuppe but euen as Iesus Christ our Sauiour was incarnate by the worde of God and tooke vpon him flesh and bloude for our saluation So we are taught that this meate for which thankes is geuen by the worde of prayer from him of which our fleshe and bloude are nourished by transmutation is the fleshe and bloude of Iesus that was incarnate Here he plainely affirmeth that the substance of the Sacrament is turned into the nourishment of our bodies Therfore it remaineth still after the consecration The other writers of later yeares as they haue some errors which neither you nor we doe allow in them so we are not afraid to confesse that they haue some corruption wherby you may seeme to haue colour of defence for inuocation of Sainctes prayer for the dead and diuerse superstitious and superfluous ceremonies yet not so addict to these nor ioyned with such absurdities as yours are But for the chiefe pointes of Christian Religion and the foundation of our faith that is for the honour of God the offices of Christ Redemption Iustification Satisfaction the fruites of Christ his passion Grace faith workes authoritie of God his word authoritie of the Pope reall presence transubstantiation Communion in both kindes Images c. the most approued writers Tertullian Cyprian Origen Epiphanius Hilarius Chrysostomus Ieronymus Ambrosius Augustinus c. are vtterly against you and therfore can not be of your church But for as much as they hold the foundation that is Christ though they haue diuerse errors superstitions they were doubtles the members of the true Church of Christ which because you are not able to disproue reason would you should recant The 17. Article conteyneth 5. demandes 1 I aske of them whether the Lutherans Zuinglians Illirians Caluenistes Confessionistes Swenkefeldians Anabaptistes and such like be all of one Church BEcause you would make simple men beleue that there be so many diuerse sectes of Protestantes as you haue giuen them names I will first discusse these sectes and afterwarde aunswere your question Lutherans you meane them that follow Luthers opinion of the Sacrament Zuinglians follow Caluines iudgement of the same Confessionistes them that exhibited their confession at Auspurge which were both the Lutherans and Zuinglians so these 3 names may be contracted
Marsilius of Padua preached in France when VValdo preached at Lyons and there about In England when VVickliffe taught in Bohemia when Iohn Hus and Ieronyme of Prage did florishe 2 Or that it might be called holy which neuer had Baptisme or other sacramentes to sanctifie any of her followers withall IT had the spirite of God to sanctifie the true members of it and it had sacramentes to testifie the same Also did not the Bohemians baptise Were not pauperes de Lugduno baptised c. But if you count their Baptisme no Baptisme why did you not rebaptize in Queene Maries time all those that were baptized by our Church in King Edwards time 3 Or that it should be one which as soone as it grew vp in the world was diuided into so many sundry sectes NOne of vs will graunt you that our Church began first to grow when it was last brought to light and knowledge of the world for it hath continued euen since christ But if there arose or were renewed many heresies with it that is no new matter but an olde practise of the deuill For as soone as the Church of Christ beganne to grow vp after his ascension euen in the Apostles time there were many sectes and heresies As the Iewes that mainteyned the lawe they that denyed the Resurrection among the Corinthians Hymenaeus and Philetus Simon Magus Cerinthus Ebion Marcion Basilides Valentinus Carpocrates c. So that there were many more heresies at the first preaching of the Gospell in and immediatly after the Apostles time then at the last restoring of the publike preaching therof vnto the worlde in our dayes And yet the Apostolike Church was one Church and so is ours at this day one and the same 4 Or that it might be called Apostolike which could neuer coūt by orderly succssion from any Apostle or Apostolike man. YOu are neuer able to answere the arguments that are brought to proue that Peter was neuer Bishoppe at Rome And then where is all your braggs of Apostolike sea and succession c. But be it that Peter was there except you proue succession of doctrine and faith as wel as succession of men your successiō is not worth a straw And our Church which holdeth all the doctrine of the Apostles and none other but the doctrine of the Apostles shall be truely called and founde the Apostolike Church when your with all her succession of Antichristes whore whoremongers heretikes Sodomites blasphemers coniurers c. shabe Apostaticall rather than Apostolicall 5 Or the secret base contemptible defaced and disordered Congregation was euer of that maiestie that it might require the obedience of all Nations HOw base and contemptible soeuer it be in the eyes of the wicked despisers of it yet did it not only require but also subdue all nations to the obedience of the Faith so many as were euer subdued in the dayes of the first Christian Emperors and before And sence when it was most defaced by the tyrannie of Antichrist it was of such maiestie that it both required and obteined the obedience of the realme of Bohemia and in processe of time hath obteined the obedience of almost all the nations of Europe If the churche of Rome reteine the like maiestie why doth it not now requier the like obedience of all nations both Christians and Turkes you will saye It requireth but it can not obteine Euen so I aunswere of our Church it hath alwayes bene worthy to requier but it hath not pleased God that it shoulde alwaies obteine 6 Or that it was euer able to gather generall Councels THe foure best generall Councells were gathered by our Church and the Emperors that were defenders of the same and not by the byshops of Rome Neither were they Presidentes in them as it is manifest that other men were Authors of the Canons or distinctions As of the Nicene Alexander Bishop of Constantinople of the Constantinopolitane Nectarius byshop of the Ephesine Cyrillus byshop of Alexandria of the Chalcedonense Anatolius of Constantinople c. and in other generall Councells where the bishop of Rome was president I aunswere as Iohn Patriarche of Antioche did in the Councell of Basile his presidence was Honoraria ad beneplacitum Concilij eis data non authoritatiua nisi ex concessione aut permissione habente vim concessionis aut ex tolerantia that is For honor sake graunted to them so long as it shoulde please the Councell and not of authority but either by graunt or permission being of the force of a graunt or els of sufferance And I conclude as he doth the Pope was neuer President either of honor or of authority but by the graunt or permission of the Councell And how is the Popish church able to gather general Councells at this daye who will come at her calling Except a few Spaniardes and a ioly company of buckram bishops of Italie generall Councells of all the worlde can neuer be gathered but either whē there is a Monarchie or els which is not to be looked for that all the Princes of the worlde will consent together 7 Or exercise Discipline BEcause this demande hath bene aunswered so often before I will saye the lesse nowe The free course of discipline in time of persecution may be hindred As it was in S. Cyprians time when the members of the Church be dispersed but the power of discipline hath alwayes remained and when occasion serued bene executed As the Bohemians excommunicated the Adamites and the ciuill Magistrates punished them by the sworde 8 Or that these names proper by scripture and Doctors of the true Church coulde be euer chalenged by any right to their saide Congregation AS many of these names as are proper to the Church by scripture or Doctors agreeing with scripture haue bene alwayes iustly chalenged of right to perteine to our Church and Congregation I meane these 1 Corpus Christi OVr Church doth rightly chalenge to be the body of Christ which acknowledgeth Christ to be her only head Sauiour Redeemer Priest King Intercessor c. The Popishe church can not chalenge this name because she doth not acknowledge Christ to be theese only and wholly 2 Sponsa Christi THe spouse of Christ heareth the voice of Christ and is ruled thereby so doth our Church therefore she is spouse of christ But the Romish church goeth a whoringe after her owne inuentions committeth grosse idolatry and will in no wise be ruled only by the voice of Christ there she is not the spouse of Christ. 3 Vencidilecta Christo. HOwe tenderly Christ loueth his Church the true members thereof which haue receiued the first frutes of his spirit do better vnderstand in hart thā can be expressed with words howe he abhorreth the whore of Babylon the Romishe Synagoge the Scripture doth plentifully declare 4 Columba speciosa OVr Church expressing the simplicitie of a fayer doue may iustly chalenge this name But the Babylonicall Strompet your church in crafte and subtilitie is more
opening of Gods spirite But omitting this matter as touched by the way with two other pages following as containing nothing materiall to be aunswered I will come to the third leafe and second face where you promise an orderly proceeding in the matter you take in hand Which order of yours if you had not professed your selfe to obserue men might haue taken your hochpot to be such as your matter would bring forth that the treaty of Purgatory should be like the troublesome state therof but when you are not content to haue your methode counted to be of the nature of your matter but you will needes make boast of an orderly proceeding in so disordered a cause you must not be offended if your confusion in steade of order be sometime discouered Howbeit the want of order were a small fault if the matter were pregnant and certaine But what assurance shall other men haue of your doctrine when you your selfe affirme and haue learned as you say out of Irenaeus that such doctrine and mysteries may not be safely had at such a mans hand as you are but onely of holy Priestes and Byshops which with the succession of their office haue receiued a sure and certaine gift of truth according to the pleasure of their father It is the duety not onely of a good teacher but euen of a good Christian to say with the Psalmist I haue beleued and therefore I haue spoken If you beleue not these matters why haue you vttered them â–ª â—f you beleue them then be bold to shew vs your grounds out of the word of god For other perswasion then â—uch as is grounded vppon the hearing of Gods worde will neuer of Christians be counted for true beliefe so long as the 10. chapter to the Romanes remaineth in the Canon of the Bible But I knowe your meaning you affect the prayse of humilitie and modestie For wauering and vncertaintie in faith among Papistes is counted modâ—stie but this modesty is soone forgotten and this boldnesse nowe vtterly refused in the next leafe â—ollowing is not onely resumed by your selfe but also enioyned to others Be bolde blush not you might say though you should for shame to charge any of our aduersaâ—â—es c. A sodaine chaunge he that euen now neither can nor must be bolde although he hâ—d many more giftes then he hath and studied much longer then he hath done to expounde the holy Scripture without daunger to him selfe and his hearers because he hath not the certaine gifte of truth with ordinary succession by and by is growne to such a full perswasion of truth expressely proued by argument and authoâ—itie that men must be bold vppon his warrant to charge all his aduersaries either to be helde thereby or else with no honesty to escape his handes A man would maruaile to beholde this speedy alteration if he did not vnderstand the true difference betwene the certaine faith of a Christian and the obstinate blindenesse of an hereticke For when he compareth his opinion with the authority of Gods word where vpon true faith is builded he will not he can not he must not be bolde to vnderstand the scriptures he wanteth that certaine gifte of truth but when he remembreth that he can not deceiue others nor retaine the glory of constancy him selfe by doubtfulnesse and vncertainty then he â—aunteth braggeth of the force of his feeble arguments and vnsufficient auâ—horitie But concerning the place of Irenaeus by him alleged I must admonish the reader that his meaning was not that euery one that succedeth in a Byshoppes seate hath as necessarily annexed to his see that certaine gifte of veritie wherby he may expound the Scripture without error as maister Allen perhaps woulde insinuate But that some in the first age of the Church as they succeded the holy Byshoppes and elders that were ordained by the Apostles in place and office so also it pleased God their father that they shoulde succede in the like gifts and namely in that excellent gifte of interpretation of the Scriptures which was but extraordinarie and for a season For if it had been an ordinarie thing that euery Byshop by succession shoulde receiue that gifte there shoulde neuer haue been any heretike Byshops as there haue been many and againe that prerogatiue which Maister Allen him selfe will affirme to be peculiar to the Byshop of Rome shoulde be made common to euery other blinde Byshop where so eâ—er he sat which were a great absurditie in popery it selfe And as for the gift of the interpretation of scriptures God gâ—ueth it still though not in such full measure nor coÌ„monly without ordinary meanes allowed in the Scripture as reading comparing praying neuer the lesse with as full persuasion in matters concerning Gods honour our saluation by his holy Spirite as euer he did bestowe the same in any age And as for the helpes of learning requisite for the same as knowledge of the tongues and rationall sciences there was neuer greater stoâ—e in the church of Christ son Christ his time ye if we shall iudge by the writings and stories of all ages vnlesse we will be as impudent as maister Allen we must say there was neuer so great store of learning in any age as Gods holy name be praised there is now in these our dayes in menne professing Christian religion with what conscience can maister Allen affirme that there was neuer lesse store of learning then in this age when euen in remembraunce of men that are aliue there was a great deale lesse store then is nowe but in their fathers and grandfathers time there was almost nothing but rudenesse and barbarousnesse euen with the same conscience that soone after he affirmeth that pleasure is euer ioyned to the Protestants doctrine which more preuaileth then the preachers perswasion If you had meant Master Allen that peace of God which passeth all vnderstanding which they tast of that by the Protestants doctrine haue learned that they are iustified by faith Phil. 4. Rom. 5. and to that perpetual ioy in the holy Ghost whereunto we are exhorted by the Apostle Phil. 4. wherein the kingdom of God consisteth Rom. 14. we willingly would haue consented that such pleasure is alwayes ioyned to the Protestants doctrine but seeing it is more like you speake of carnall pleasures I must say thus much to confound your blasphemous tongue and to dashe out your slaunderous writing let the worlde witnesse that heareth our doctrine and God iudge that seeth our hearts whether carnall pleasures be ioyned to our teaching which daily preach with all vehemency and earnestnes vnfained repentaunce mortification deniall of our selues bearing of the crosse hatred of this world amendment of life holines and righteousnes and that vnder paine of euerlasting damnation And whether pleasure more then the godly perswasion of the preachers preuaileth to winne professors of our doctrine if it be not so clearly seene in this Church of England by the meanes of the great peace
After the sinnes of man be pardoned God oftentimes punisheth the offender the church punisheth him and man punisheth him selfe ergo there is some payne due after sinne be remitted Secondly this payne can not alwayes be discharged in this world eyther for lacke of space after the remission as it happeth in repentaunce at the houre of death or else when the party liueth in perpetuall welth without care or cogitation of any satisfaction therefore it must be aunswered in an other place Thirdly the common infirmities and the dayly trespasses which abase and defile the workes euen of the vertuous of their proper condition doe deserue payne for a tyme as the mortall offence deserueth perpetuall Therefore as the mortall sinne being not here pardoned must of iustice haue the reward of euerlasting punishment so it must needes followe that the veniall fault not here forgeuen should haue the reward which of nature it requireth that is to say temporall payne And therefore not onely the wicked but the very iust also must trauell to haue their daily infirmities and frailty of their corrupt natures forgiuen crying without ceasing forgeue vs our debts Quia non iustificabitur in conspectu tuo omnis viuens For no man aliue shal be able to stand before the face of God in his owne iustice or righteousnes and if these light sinnes should neuer be imputed then it were needelesse to cry for mercy or confesse debt as euery man doth be he neuer so passing holy To be briefe this debt of paine for sinne by any way remayning at the departure hence must of iustice be aunswered VVhich can not be without punishmēt in the next life then there must be a place of iudgement for temporall and transitory paynes in the other world The whole discourse made before hath geuen force enough to euery part of the argument the Scriptures doe proue it the practise of the Church confirmeth it all the doctors by our aduersaries graunt agree vpon it If they haue any thing to say here I make them fayre play the ground is open the reasons laide naked before their face remoue them as they can Lette them deale simply if they meane truely and not flourish as they vse vppon a false ground that in flowe of wordes they may couer errour or in rase of their smoth talke ouerrunne truth And that euery man may perceiue that we haue not raised this doctrine vpon reason only or curiositie although the graue authoritie of Gods Church might here in satisfie sober wittes we will now by Gods helpe go nearer the matter and directly make proofe of Purgatory by holy Scriptures reciting such places of the olde and new Testament as shall proue our cause euen in that sense which the learnedst and godlyest fathers of all ages by conference of places or other likelyhood shall fynde and determine to be most true Alleaging none els but such as they haue in the flour of Christian faith noted and peculiarely construed for that purpose which now is in question That the aduersaries of that doctrine may rather striue with the said saincts and doctours then with me that will as they shall well perceiue do nothing but truely reporte their wordes or meaninge Or rather that such as haue erred in that case by giuing ouer light credit to the troblesome teachers of these vnhappy dayes maye when they shall vnderstand the true meaning of the Scriptures the constant doctrine of the Catholike Church the wordes of all auncient writers the determination of so many holy Councels the olde vsage of all nations by humble prayers obteine of God the light of vnderstanding the trueth and the gifte of obedience to his will and worde Or if there be any so sattled in this vnlickely sect that he purposeth not to beleue the graue writers of olde times nor receiue their expositions vpon such places as we shall recite for that preiudice which he hath of this owne witte and vnderstanding yet let him not maruell at my simplicity that had rather geue credit to others then my selfe Or that in this hote time of contention and partaking in religion I do repose my selfe vnder the shadow of so many worthy writers as anone shall giue euidence in my cause CAP. V. 1 TRiumphing before the victorie and that is more before the encontry of hāde strokes for we come to ioyning but now you will now win your spurs or els it shal be a blacke daye with all Protestantes I will be as shorte in mine aunswere as you are in your arguments And that I may put on an armour of proofe to beare of your terrible haileshot your first argumēt hath neither good forme nor matter no more hath your second no more hath your third If you or any for you will prepare your selfe to geue a bitter charge either I or some other shal be redy to shape you an other aunswere But because here is nothing in this briefe ioyning but which hath bene largly discharged before in aunswere to your longe excursions it were nedelesse to make such vaine repetition as you doe especially in your last shorte argument in which space all the substaunce of your large booke might easily haue bene placed only to fil vp a competent length of the fift chapter and with such a tedious inlarging of a superfluous matter as a yong practiser of Rhetoricke would be ashamed to vse in a fayned declamation much worse becomming an auncient master of arte professing to trusse vp his arguments by Logicke to make a perfect perswasion As for the promisse of further proofe both out of the Scriptures and out of the doctors that followeth after this gallant ioyning and lusty challenge shall haue no preiudice of my disabling of the meane to perform it vntill it appeare by playne conference of his arguments and myne aunswers that his words are but winde and his promisse but pratling That Purgatory paines doth not onely serue Gods iustice for the punishement of sinne but also cleanse and qualifie the soule of man defiled for the more seemely entraunce into the holy places vvith conferēce of certaine places of Scripture for that purpose CAP. VI. 1 IF we well cōsider the wonderfull base condition and state of mans nature corrupted by our first fathers disobedience and more and more abased by continuall misery that sinne hath brought into our mortall life we shall finde the worke of Gods wisedome in the excellent repaire of this his creature to be full of mercy and full of maruell But proceding somewhat further and weying not onely his restoring but also the passing great anauncement to the vnspeakable glory of the elect there shall reason and all our cogitations vtterly faint and faile vs. The kingdome prepared is honored with the maiestie of the glorious Trinitie with the humanitie of Christ our Sauiour with the blessed Mary the vessell of his Incarnation with the bewtifull creatures and wholy vndefiled of all the ordres of Angels There can nothing doubtlesse
be placed because there is no mention thereof in the Gospell But to returne to the third place alleged by M. Allen out of S. Augustine ser. 3. Psal. 103. How would he haue vs to take it for a confirmation of his exposition of S. Paules wordes touching the paines of purgatory which are sayd to begin immediatly after this life when he him selfe confesseth that it is to be vnderstoode of the vniuersall conflagration of the world at the day of iudgement Thus you see that here were great bragges made that Augustines authority maintained his interpretation of those 2. textes of Scripture concerning popish purgatory which he him selfe contendeth to beginne as soone as men are dead When Augustine in both those places as the playne circumstance of the place declareth the one and the confâ—ssion of M. Allen admitteth the other speaketh of a kind of purging which he did thinke should not be before the whole world were purged at once by fire 3 And as S. Augustine taketh these base substances of wood hay or stuble to signifie worldly affections and secular desires so S. Ambrose noteth by the same vayne curious vnprofitable doctrines the drosse of which friuolous matter much corrupting the sinceritie of our faith must be separated from the foundation by the fire of the sayd fornace For this is a generall doctrine without exception that what so euer be vnderstanded by those light matters whether it be a difformity in life or in doctrine that onely defileth and not vtterly destroyeth the fayth which is the foundation nor wasteth the loue due vnto our Lord what so euer I say that be it must be tryed out by the spirite of iudgement and fire Briefly then thus S. Ambrose expounding the Apostles wordes He shall be saued by fire writeth Ostendit illum saluum quidem futurum sed poenam ignis passurum vt per ignem purgatus fiat saluus non sicut perfidi aeterno igne in perpetuum torqueatur The Apostle declareth that he shall be saued and yet suffer the paynes of fire that being purged by that fire he may so be saued and not as the vnfaithfull perpetually be tormented in euerlasting fire 3 As he sayth litle out of Ambrose so it is soone aunswered first it maketh litle for him that Ambrose expoundeth the wodde hay and stuble vayne curious and vnprofitable doctrine for that prouethe that onely the worke of teachers shall passe the triall of this fire which is the iudgement of Gods spirite the true discerner of doctrines but yet Ambrose expoundeth the fire to be a purging and a punishment But whether it be in this life or after this life you haue no ground out of this place of Ambrose and therefore it finally auaileth your cause And that Ambrose allowed no purging after this life is playne enough by those wordes which he writeth vpon the 40. Psalme For where the prophet sayth he shall be made happy on earth Ambrose inferreth Bene addidit in terra quia nisi hic mundatus fuerit ibi mundus esse non poterit He hath well added on earth for if he be not clensed here he can not be clensed there 4 This temporall torment of the next life S Hierom very fitly calleth A iudgement of God ioyned with mercy the continuance whereof or other circumstances to serue mens curiositie he dare not define being contented out of doubt to beleue that certaine sinners be in greuous torments and yet not without hope of mercy these be that holy mans words in his commentaries vpon the Prophet Esai talking by occasion of the continuance of purgatory paynes Quid nos solius Dei scientiae debemus relinquere cuius non solum misericordiae sed tormenta in pondere sunt nouit quem quomodo quandiu debeat iudicare Solumque dicamus quod humanae conuenit fragilitati Domine ne in furore tuo arguas me neque in ira tua corripias me sicut diaboli omniumque negatorum atque impiorum qui dixerunt in corde suo non est Deus credimus aeterna tormenta sic peccatorum atque impiorum tamen Christianorum quorum opera in igne purganda sunt atque probanda moderatam arbitramur mixtam clementiae sententiam iudicis In English VVe must commit this secrete to Gods wisedom and knowledge whose not onely mercy but iudgement and iust punishment be paised For he right well knoweth whom how and what time he ought to punish And let vs onely as it becommeth our frailty cry out Lord in thy furious wrath argue me not neither correct me in thy anger for as we beleue the eternall damnation and torment of the deuill with the forsaken sort and wicked that sayd in their harte there is no God so we suppose that vpon sinners and euill men being yet christen men whose workes shall be both purged and tryed by fire shal be pronounced a moderate sentence mixed with mercy and clemency Lo here this worthy writer graunteth there be two sortes of punishments by fire one of the damned spirites and wicked men eternall and an other of certayne that in their life were sinners some wicked men too who yet being in Christes Church and vsing the benefite of the blessed Sacraments had their sinnes so forgeuen that not purging their wicked life by sufficient penaunce in their dayes they must of necessity enter into the torment of transitory fire there to be punished not in rage and rigor without pity but in anger of fatherly correction ioyned with clemency and much mercy 4 The last place is reserued for S. Ieronym who seemeth to geue a perfect testimony for M. Allens behoofe if he be no further examined then M. Allen rehearseth his wordes but howe litle they make for him if they be duely discussed except it be to proue Ieronym an Origenist and so to discredite his testimony I will stand to the iudgement of all reasonable Papistes that will vouchsafe to weygh the matter with me and not be wilfully deceiued For first it is manifest that Ieronym writing vpon these wordes of Esay whose worme shal not dye nor the fire be extinguished speaketh of the last iudgement in the ende of the world and then rehearseth the arguments of them that thought the punishment of that worme and fire shoulde be ended after long time and great torments which thing Ieronym sayth must be left to the onely knowledge of God c whom he confesseth to be a mercifull iudge and so it may be that he will release the eternall torments that wicked Christians haue deserued after the day of iudgement but he defineth nothing And as for M. Allens purgatory which he defendeth to begin streight way after mens departure hence he speaketh neuer a word But rather of the purging fire of Gods iudgement which some of the Origenistes did extend to the purifying and sauing of all Christians were they neuer so wicked from whose opinion he seemeth not
the dead or any point of purgatory 6 I will declare what they practised for their dearest frends priuately and what the Churches of most notable Nations vsed for all deceased in Christes faith in their publike seruice openly I shall proue vnto you that the practise of suffrages and Sacrifice for the deade isshued downe to vs from the Apostles dayes 6 You shall not proue that either in publicke or priuate prayers the deade were commended otherwise then by waye of thankes geuing for their departure or that any suffrages or sacrifice was offered for them by the Apostles or their lawefull successors or many yeares after the Apostles times 7 I shall pointe you to the first father of the contrary doctrine and his principall abettours in such troublesome times at such marchants were to be founde Ye shall see them knowen amongest all the holy of their time by the name of heretikes 7 You shall shew no heretike that denied your doctrine but I will shew you other heretikes before him that allowed it 8 You shall see their doctrine improued and them selues condemned by the graue iudgement of Councells both Generall prouinciall for heretikes If any of them all can say any thing to the contrary of that which we vpon so good groundes mainteine he shall be aunswered with no worse then the very wordes of the holy auncient writers Finally if any other thinges be necessary beside for the declaration of this matter to the simple or for proofe against our aduersaries they shall not be omitted as occasioÌ„ by course and fall of the matter may be geuen All which pointes being auouched and not proued shall condemne me of arrogancy But both auouched and fully proued they shall deserue any reasonable mans consent and beare testimony of the aduersaries impudency here and witnesse of their contempte of Gods approued trueth in the worlde to come 8 How vayne your bragge is of generall counsels it appeareth by this that with in fouretene hundreth yeares after Christ you can finde none to serue your turne vntill you come to the councells Florens and Trent whereof the one was held in our grandfathers dayes the other within these 20. yeares your prouinciall councells shal be aunswered by as good prouinciall councells as they are And that which I haue to say in confutation of your heresie shall be no worse then the very word of God it selfe which is better then the consent of all the world against it And although the custome of praying for the dead be an auncient errour so that fewe of the latter writers there are but they shewe them selues to be infected therewith yet hath it not such an vniuersall consent of all writers but that I shall be able by Gods grace to shew that the most auncient and nearest to the Apostles tyme receiued it not and that they which of later time admitted it had neither any ground out of the Scriptures to warrant their doing nor any certainty of faith to assure their conscience which when it is found in the ende as it is now sayd in the beginning your arrogant boasting and impudent lying togither with the falshoode of your opinions shall be manifest to all men That there be certaine sinnes vvhich may be forgeuen in the next life and that the deserued punishement for the same may be eased or vtterly released before the extreme sentence be to the vtmost executed CAP. I. 1 ANd first that sinnes may be pardoned in the next worlde that were not in this life forgeuen our Sauiours owne wordes do teach vs written in the Gospell of S. Matthew thus Ideò dico vobis omne peccatum blasphemia remittetur hominibus spiritus autem blasphemia non remittetur Et quicuÌ„que dixerit verbum contra filium hominis remittetur ei qui autem dixerit contra spiritum sanctum non remittetur ei neque in hoc saeculo neque in fuâ—uro I tell you that all maner of sinne and blasphemy shall be forgeuen vnto men but the blasphemy of the spirit shall not be forgeueÌ„ And who so euer shall speake against the sonne of man it shall be forgeuen him But if he speake against the holy Ghost it shall neither be pardoned in this worlde nor in the worlde to come The same thing in sense hath Marke and Luke affirming that such offense shall neuer be forgeuen The which worde Neuer S. Marke expresseth thus in aeternuÌ„ non habet remissionem he shall not haue pardoÌ„ as you would say in all eternity by which he may plainely seeme to reache further then the limites and borders of this worlde for the remission of sinne And this speach hath as much pith and proper force in it as S. Matthewes who expressely distinctly and belike as Christ spake it vttereth that sense of the eternity which passeth the measure of worldely time by these words Neither in this world nor yet in the world to come And for that cause S. Marke sayth Reus erit aeterni delicti he shall be gilty of an eternall faulte signifying that in some case a man might perhaps not speede of a pardon in this life yet may obteine it in the next But for that horrible blasphemy he in a maner dischargeth the offender of all hope of remission either in this life or in the next that is to come VVhich forme of wordes can neither be founde in scripture nor in mans common talke to haue any place in such thinges as extend no further but to the transitory time of our life for in those matters it had bene vsually and truely spoken it shall neuer happen in this world And therfore instructing vs that sinnes or the paine due vnto sinnes may either be released in this worlde or in the worlde to come he followeth that phrase and forme of wordes in which man might well conceiue the reache of remission and pardoning of sinnes farre to passe the compasse of our time and life CAP. I. 1 YOu were as good to kindle a fire out of yâ—e and snow as to goe about to frame your fiery forge of purgatory out of this place The meaning of our Sauiour Christ is so playne his wordes so expresse that no reasonable man can gather any errour out of them For vndoubtedly the errour of purgatory was first inuented before this place was drawne vnto it So is there no heresie so absurd which Satan putteth into the head of wicked men but it may finde some sound of wordes in so many bookes of the holy Scriptures that by peruerse wit may be wrested vnto it But the doctrine of Gods truth and all articles of our beliefe are plainly taught in the Scripture either by manifest words or by necessary conclusion and argument which by no subtilty of SataÌ„ or his instrumeÌ„ts may be auoided or deluded And this is the difference betwene heresie and truth when they both apeale to the authorities of the Scripture Truth as she hath her foundation in the Scriptures and
confesse before the Lorde that it is nothing in comparison of his mercy towards vs nor our duety towards him But yet blessed be his holy name that it is sufficient to iustifie our profession against the Papistes if not to stoppe their malicious mouthes yet to condemne their cancred conscience of obstinate lying against the manifest light of truth And whereas M. Allen will haue vs told that the blood of Christ maketh mens workes meritorious we will not let to tell him that the church of Christ abhorreth that blasphemy whereby Christes blood is made not the only nor the principall but an accessary and helping cause of remission of sinnes eternall saluation and will not doubt to tell him all such hypocrites as he is that neither see feele tast nor know the mystery of Christes redemption or any thing that ishueth vnto vs thereof which mingle merites of men by what colour or conueiance of wordes what so euer with the infinite and onely cause of our saluation the meere mercy of god And whereas he biddeth vs come into his Church we say to all them that are curable among them as the spirite of God hath taught vs come out of her my people come out of her lest ye be partakers of her plages and torments But nowe at the last he returneth to his matter of mercy affirming that after mens departure the representation of almes by such as receiued it shall moue God exceedingly to mercy O vaine imagination for which he hath neither Scripture nor doctor for neither the example of Peter and the saying of Cyprian helpeth him one iote because there is not the like comparison betwene man and God nor betwene deliuerance from hel which is certayne purgatory which is the controuersie 2 If thou yet chaunce to be negligent in the working of thine owne saluation when thou art in strength and helth when ouer much carefulnesse of worldly welth hindereth the remembraunce of thy duety towardes God for all that helpe thy selfe at the least in thy latter ende for though it had bene much better before yet it is not euill nowe I speake not for priestes aduauntage God is my iudge I am not of that roome my selfe and will not condemne my soule for other But I speake for pity of the deceiued people for compassion of the soules that lacke the reliefe of so soueraigne a remedy for mine owne helpe and those that I so dearly loue against the day of our accompt I speake it because I beleue it and I beleue it because I finde it practised of those men and in those dayes when true christianitie was yet feruent in Christes bloude when the faith was vndefiled and when workes and faith ranne together in the rase of mans life ioyntly without contention Then floorished this doctrine and thou shalt haue further tast of their vsage for mine owne discharge we can not occupy our penne better S. Chrysostome thus instructed his flocke in this case Si adhuc in hac vita constitutus omnia quibus animae tuae prodesse poteras bene dispensare neglexisti vel ad calcem vitae tuae tuis mandasti vt tua tibi ipsi submittendo erogent bonisque operibus te adiuuent eleemosinis dico oblationibus etiam hac ratione saluatorem conciliaueris scribe in tabulis cum filijs cognatisque tuis haeredem nomina dominum Nulli autem viuentium propterea occasionem damus ne faciat eleemosinas differendo vsque ad mortem If thou in thine owne time was ouer negligent in disposing thy goods for the proffit of thy soule and yet at the very ende doest at the last charge thy frendes or executors that they will employ thy proper goods for the reliefe of thy selfe and so helpe thee with good workes that is to saye with almes and oblation euen that way there is great hope thou maiest procure Gods fauour write in thy will that our Lorde may be named a fellowe heire with thy children and kinnesfolkes Neuerthelesse let no man take occasion hereby to be slacke in his life time or to differe his almes charitie till deathes approching This was the preaching of that doctours dayes this proceeded out of his golden mouth and this sounded out of euery pulpit And surely if you knew his life and qualities you woulde not take him to be the priestes proctor of whose dignity as he wrote much so where he founde any vicious he punished sore But he was a true proctor of our soules Chrysostome was no crauer perdye nor Christ neither though they warne vs to make frâ—ndes by Mammon for our owne saluation They aske not much they thrust out no inheretours it was but a mite that wanne the poore widowe that prayse a cuppe of cold water where more abilitie wanteth shall winne heauen at th end This then is the benefite of almes giuen in the time of mans life or otherwise by his appointment of his owne goodes after his departure both which procure mercie as well by the deede it selfe as by the prayers of those to whome that charity apperteined 2 This matter standeth vpon chaunce medly for if thou chaunce sayth he to be negligent c. and more rightly then he termeth the buriall of Geneua it may be called a matter of mumchaunce for he beginneth with a chaunce but he hath neuer a title of scripture nor any sufficient authority of a doctor to proue that almes bequeathed in a mans testament helpeth him out of purgatory And yet as though he had some greate speake to make he protesteth that he speaketh not for priestes aduantage because he is not of that roome him selfe c. but hereby you maye see what he counteth almes cheefely that which is geuen vnto priestes or else what needeth he to make any such protestation But he speaketh it because he beleueth it he would fayne counter fect his speach like the Apostle but an ape will be an ape although he be clothed in purple For the grounde of his belefe is not as the Apostles was the worde of God Rom. 10. but the practise of men which though they were neuer so good yet they were such as might deceiue and be deceiued But to the matter the florish of this doctrine was so great in those times which he commeÌ„deth to be so happy that he can not finde one man that speaketh of it but he is fayne to cite out of Damascene that which Chrysostome shoulde saye Which wordes proue no more but that almes is better geuen at the last then not at all of deliuerance from purgatory neuer a worde There is one word oblationibus which perhaps M. Allen would draw to masses for he translateth it oblation in the singular number which in the Latine is the plurall numbre His fetch is easy to finde the Masse though it be sayed neuer so often yet is it called of them but one oblation But I inferre vppon his owne conscience Chrysostomes
appeare what good authorities they are to proue the doctrine of the Church This booke de castitate he wrote to diswade a friend of his whose wife was dead that he should not marry agayne condemning second mariage for adultery as Montanus his maister did and laboureth to proue that he could not pray for his departed wiues soule nor offer the yearely oblation if he married an other To the same purpose he reasoneth in his booke de Monogamia where the wordes alleged by M Allen be so corrupted in all the coppyes that Beatus Rhenamus confesseth that no sense could be made of them and these wordes are the coniecturall correction of Beatus Rhenamus But let them be vndoubtedly the wordes of Tertullian as they seeme to be Here more manifestly then before he brocheth his heresie of condemning second mariages for in that the wife prayeth for her husbands soule and offereth c he would proue that she is still married to him and that she committeth adultery if she take an other directly contrary to the word of god Rom. 7. 1. Cor. 7. yet see either the ignorance or the malice of this Allen that allegeth those words of this writer by which he condemneth them that allow second mariage as denyers of the resurrection agaynst vs that deny prayers for the deade to be lawfull by the word of god And vseth the same reason and wordes to proue prayers for the dead to be allowable that Tertullian vseth to proue second mariages to be damnable For that accompt which Tertullian sayth men and women are bound vnto one to an other he meaneth of the promise of mariage once made betwene them which M. Allen like a wise yong man expoundeth prayers oblations for their soules The words of Tertullian following immediatly where M. Allen leaueth them are these Si autem in illo aeuo neque nubent neque nubentur sed erunt aequales Angelis non ideò non tenebimur coniugibus defunctis quia non erit restitutio coniugij At quin eò magis tenebimur quia in meliorem statum destinamur resurrecturi in spirituale consortium agnituri tam nosmet ipsos quam nostros c. But if in that time they shall neither marry nor be married but shall be equall to the Angells we shall not therfore not be bouÌ„d to our wiues departed because there shall not be a restitution of mariage But so much the more we shall be bounde because we are appoynted to a better state as they that shall ryse agayne into a spirituall fellowship and shall know agayne as well our selues as those that pertayne vnto vs Wherefore M. Allen once againe I must tell you that we woulde be sorrie to be so neere the deniall of the resurrection by denying prayers for the deade as you are towarde the heresy of the Montanistes in vsing such reasons to defend praying and offering for the deade as Tertullian a Montaniste vsed to mainteine his heresy but I shall haue further occasion to retorne to Tertullian when I shall proue that the opinion of purgatory came first frâ—â— heretikes 4 But as neere as we be Christes time by Tertullians helpe we will approch yet neerer to the very Apostles age and looke out some recorde of that time for oblations and distributions with memorialls for the departed And the further from you of the new sect we go the more plaine destruction of your doctrine and more manifest proofe of our olde deuotion shall we fiende to your open shame and the comfort of Catholikes S. Clement therefore the Romane one conuersaunt with the Apostles and instructed by them in his faith a familiar of S. Paule and promoted by S. Peter a true pastor and a holy martyr thus reporteth of the Apostles ordinaunce in our matter Peragatur dies mortuorum in Psalmis in lectionibus atque orationibus propter eum qui tertia die resurrexit Item nonus in commemorationem superstitum atque defunctorum Etiam quadragesimus secuÌ„dum veterem formam Moysen enim hoc modo luxit populus nec non anniuersarium pro memoria ipsius detúrque de illius facultatibus pauperibus in commemorationem ipsius Thus in english VVe will that the third day be obserued for the departed in psalmes lessons and prayers for his sake that rose the third day And so the ix day for the vniting together in one memorie the departed with the liuing In like maner the fourtith day must be kept according to the ordre vsed of olde for so did the people obserue the bewayling of Moyses And with all these the xij monthes minde beside VVhere for the memory of his departure lâ—t somwhat be distributed amongest the poore people How say you now my maisters is this Popish or Apostolike doctrine was it inuented for priestes couetousnesse or obserued as Christes ordinaunce made we much of late of the litle we founde before or of late lost for lacke of deuotion that which we had so long before Mercifull God who woulde thinke this geare were so auncient so litle set by VVho would thinke the aduersaries were so impudent and yet so much regarded VVhat hearte thinke you they reade the auncient writers with all Or with what conscience can they passe by so plaine practise of all the Christian worlde Or with what face can they name either scripture or doctor How dare they looke backe at any one steppe of antiquitie all which be nothing els but a testimony of their wickednesse and as you woulde say a pointing with finger at their horrible spoile of olde doctrine and deuotion VVhat if one of their owne scholars seeing this light in our matter shoulde aske of his maister a lasse sir what if this be true that is proued so olde and you chaunce to lie that are so late where are we your scholars then It is not aunswered if you confort him with faire wordes and tell him you follow the scripture For he will charge you againe straight that these men had scripture vnderstood scripture alleaged scripture both of the newe Testament and the olde and referred their vsage some to Moyses Aaron other some to the fathers in the lawe of nature and all to the Apostles of christ VVhere are you then no more but this perdy we vnderstand scripture perchaunce better then they we haue the holy Ghost perchaunce and so had not the fathers perchaunce that is no scripture perchaunce this and this is not that doctors worke because it makes against vs I thinke he that woulde beleue your chauncing that may haue such assuraunce of the trueth on the other side he is worthy to be deceiued 4 Not content with Tertullians testimony you will clime higher euen to Clemens the Apostles owne scholer but you shal be brought downe with shame enough I will not here repeate the mise dounge with the rotten breade in the boxe and such baggage as I haue discouered before of this carterly Clement but because you are so
full of posing M. Protestant as though you were Iohannes ad oppositum I wil pose you M. Allen an other while or any M. Papiste of you all that hath a forheade to mainteine this trumperie for Clemenâ— the auncient Bishoppes writing Alas Syr what if this be proued counterfect that you saye is so olde and you with out peraduenture lye that of late haue founde it so auncient what grounde haue your schollers then Tertullian hath discharged you of authority of the scripture already how will you proue it then to be a tradition of the Apostles your aunswere wil be still Clenens sayth it But alacke Sir whether is it more licke that Eusebius and Hieronym that lyued neerer to the time of S. Clement by twelue hundreth yeares then you shoulde know or here tell of his epistles and other writings better then you But Eusebius and Hieronym neuer hearde of such writinges as were neuer seen in the Church 13. or 14. hundreth yeares after Clemens his death Where shoulde you haue them then but of some counterfecting knawe that coulde not otherwise maintaine his heresie to be old but by falsyfying and counterfecting a newe that which neuer was in the olde writers heades But to shew that your shamelesse Clement daunceth bare and breechelesse with out all honesty I will yet pose you further and bidde you call your wittes together to aunswere me Whether had you rather graunt that so holy a Pope as Clemens was did erre or â—hat he was a false knaw that woulde father an error vppon so holy a mans name and credit your Syr Clemens decreeth that the fortyeth day must be obserued for the departed according to the olde forme because the people did so obserue the bewayling of Moses But if the scripture affirme that the people bewayled Moses but 30. dayes Deut. 34. Then is your Clement a falsyfier of Gods worde and his foolish decree builded vppon his false grounde How saye you now M. Allen is this Apostolike or apostotaticall is this plaine dealing or Popish counterfecting was Clemens in the Apostles age so ignorant of the scripture or was he an ignorant hypocrite that fayned this vnder the name of Clemens Trueth seaketh not to be mainteined which lyes fayth looketh not to be defended by falsehoode The Church of Christ craueth no counterfected authoritie to establish her doctrine Therefore it is neither trueth nor fayth nor the doctrine of the Church of Christ that you mainteine defend and establish by lying falsyfying and counterfecting but error infidelity and heresie he therefore that will forsake the certainetie of Gods worde to builde vpon the traditions of men for leuing the only pathe of trueth hath a iust rewarde to fall into the pitte of error 5 VVell I will close vp this parte of our talke for Tobies almes borde in the obittes of Christian men with S. Augustines graue iudgement who as he is plaine for the benefite of oblations in the memorialls of mens departures in all placies so here in a maner he ordereth the action thereof for abusies that might thereon arise in his epistle to Aurelius The offeringes sayth he obserued for the soules departed whereof there is no question but profet ariseth to them let them not be ouer sumptuous vpon the mindes of the deceased nor soulde away but geuen with out grudge or disdaine to such as be present and woulde be partaker thereof but if mony be offered it may be distributed out of hande to the poore and then shall not those dayes of their freindes memorialles be to their great griefe forsaken or destitute of companie And the ordre with honeste comelinesse shall be kept continually in the Church So S. Clement him selfe teacheth all them that be called to such dayes of prayers for the departed and to be partakers of those oblations or charitable relieues which were by some honest sober refreshing euen in the Church in those dayes obserued whether they be of the laity or of the priestes he geueth them this lesson Qui ad memorias eorum vocamini cum modestia cum dei timore comedite veluti valentes legatione fungi pro mortuis cum sitis presbyteri diaconi Christi sobrij esse debetis priuatim cum alijs vt possitis intemperantes coercere All you that are called to the funeralles of the departed refresh your selues in measure and feare of God that you may be worthy to be as it were in commission of intreatie for the deade and being priestes or deacons of Christ you are bounde to be sobre euen at home but abrode for others example and discipline 5 You had bene as good to haue left out the comparing of Augustines oblations with Tobies almes borde for that custome which most resembled your fantasie of Tobies almes borde Augustine condemneth where he alloweth oblations for them that sleepe to profit some what Sed quoniaÌ„ istae in caemiterijs ebrietates luxuriosa conuiuia non solùm honores martyrum in carnali imperita plebe credi solent sed etiam solatia mortuorum mihi videtur facilius illic dissuadeâ—i posse istam foeditatem ac turpitudinem si de scripturis prohibeatur oblationes pro spiritibus dormientium quas verè aliquid adiuuare credendum est super ipsas memorias non sunt sumptuosae c. But because this dronkennesses and riotous festes vsed in the Church yeardes of the carnall and vnskillfull people are wonte to be beleued not onely to be the honour of the martyrs but also the comforte of the deade my thinke it were more easy that this filthynesse and beastlynesse may be there diswaded if both it be forbidden out of the scriptures and that the oblations for the spirites of the deade which truely we must beleue doth helpe somewhat vpon the memories them selues be not sumptuous c. But if Augustine had knowen the horrible abuses which grew afterwarde by permission of these oblations he woulde as well haue prohibited them out of the scripture as that hethenish banquettinge in the Church yeardes in honor of the martyrs as for comforte of deade mens soules As for Clement that teacheth the preistes and deacones to be sober and moderate in eating where they were bidden to buriall feastes euen here also he sheweth him selfe in his owne colours As though in the dayes of Clemens when the Church was in great persecution they had nothing els to doe but to keepe sumptuous feastes at their burialls where at the priestes and deacons were in daunger of glouttony dronkennesse as they were in the Popish church when Popery was in the pride seldome temperate or sober and lest of all at burialls and monthes mindes c. That the benefite of prayer and almes appertaineth not to such as dye in mortall sinne though in the doubtefull case of mans beeing the Church vseth to praye for all departed in Christes fayth CAP. VII 1 THus farre we now are broght I trust with proofe and euidence enough with
lye in euery tryfling matter you are worthy to be deceiued And that you may see I doe him no wrong see I pray you how shamefully he lyeth in this matter whereof he maketh such impudent assurance He sayth the same men which brought in the fayth brought in the same order of seruice and planted the same supplication wherein they haue vniformly continued c take away the same order and ouerthrow the fayth which they taught But who doth not know that Chrysostom Basill Ambrose Gregory which he nameth to be the first auctors of those orders of seruice formes of supplication which before he commended were not the first that brought in the fayth into Cappadocia Thracia or Italy But the Apostles them selues and that those Churches continued more then 300. yeares with other formes of publike prayers and celebration of the sacraments before these men were borne And where he sayth there was euer found in the celebration of the sacrament beside oblation of the host for the quicke and the deade both particularly and generally a solemne prayer for all departed in Christ You must take it as the rest of his assertions which be euer more generall then their probations But to reproue his vanitie the order of prayers and administration of the holy misteries described by Iustinus Martyr in his second Apologie and of Tertullian also in his Apologetico doe sufficiently declare what was the vsage of the Christians in those purer times And although there be not set forth vnto them what forme of wordes they vsed in their liturgie yet is it expressed for whom and what they prayed Oramus etiam sayth Tertullian pro Imperatoribus pro ministris eorum potestatibus saeculi pro rerum quiete pro mora finis We pray also for the Emperours for their ministers and the powers of this world for the quiet state of thinges for stay of the end Likewise he sheweth to whom they made their prayers and what was the chiefest sacrifice that they did offer Haec ab alio orare non possum quam à quo sciam me coÌ„secuturum quoniam ipse est qui solus praestat ego sum cui impetrare debetur famulus eius qui eum solum obseruo qui ei offero opimam maiorem hostiam quam ipse maÌ„dauit orationem de carne pudica de anima innocente de spiritu sancto profatam These thinges I can not require of any other but of him of whom I know I shall obteyne For it is he alone which graunteth and I am he which should obteyne being his seruaunt which worship him onely which offer vnto him that principall and great sacrifice which he him selfe commaunded namely prayer proceding out of a chast body out of a harmeles soule and from the holy spirite This he speaketh comparing the prayers and sacrifice of the Christians with the prayers and sacrifices of the Gentiles But that I may returne to M. Allen which referreth the institution of prayer and sacrifice for the deade to Christ at his last supper to the secrete suggestion of the holy Ghost to the faithfull deliuery of the Apostles and the constant continuance of all nations Of whom will he be a feard to lye when he fathereth such a blasphemy vpon the Apostles vpon the holy Ghost and vpon Christ him selfe But let vs consider your Sorites Christ you say no doubt did institute it where is the warraunt of this vndouted institution you aunswere secrete suggestion of the holy Ghost howe come we to the knowledge of this secrete suggestion By tradition of the Apostles who is witnesse that this is the tradition of the Apostles Tertullian Cyprian Augustine Ieronym and a great many more But if it be lawfull for me once to pose the Papistes as you do often the Protestants I would learne why the Lord would not haue this doubtlesse institution and as you take it the most necessary vse of the sacrament plainly or at least wise obscurely set foâ—th by Matthew Marke Luke or Paule which all haue set forth the story of the action of Christ the institution of the sacrament and the ende or vse of the same If it were not meete at all to be put in writing why was it disclosed by Tertullian Cyprian Augustine c. If it were meete to be put in writing why were not those chosen Scribes Matthew Marke Luke Paule worthy of all credit rather appoynted for it then Tertullian Cyprian Augustine and such as you name But against this counterfect institution secrete suggestion and fayned tradition S. Paule cryeâ—h with open mouth to the Corinthians 1. Cor. 11. That which I deliuered vnto vnto you I receiued of the Lorde that the Lord Iesus the same night c. In which wordes he declareth without couler or couerture what was the true institution of Christ of what witnesse he receiued it with what fidelitie he deliuered it what the sacrament is and what is the right vse of it to condemne all maner of abuses what so euer may rise either to corrupt this onely true substance and onely right order of ministration or to peruert this onely right vse and proper ende thereof I knowe the Papistes will flie to those wordes of the Apostle the rest I will set in order when I come but that is so manifest to be spoken of matters of externall comlines and not of doctrine of the sacrament as prayers and sacrifices that no man which vnderstandeth what 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 doth signifie can doubt or make any questioÌ„ of it Now touching the credit and worthynesse of these whom he so highly extolleth as I woulde not goe about to diminish it if they were to be compared with vs so when they are opposed against the manifest worde of God and the credit of the holy Apostles the instruments of the holy Ghost there is no cause that we shoulde be caried awaye with them But the controuersie is not as M. Allen sayth of the authoritie of the scriptures in this matter but of the true meaning of them which it is more like that they being such men then we so farre inferior to them should knowe I aunswere they them selues for the most parte confesse that prayer and oblation for the deade is not taken at all out of the scriptures as Tertullian Augustine and other the rest that woulde seeke confirmation in the scriptures as Chrysostome and such like doe so manifestly wrest them to their purpose that the Papistes them selues are ashamed to vse those textes of scripture for their proofes And as for such places as the later Papistes woulde violently draw vnto their error they haue fewe or none of the olde approued writers which though they allow their error yet that so interpret them as the place 1. Cor. 3. and Matth. 5. And what a shamelesse creature is M. Allen to say the controuersie is about the true meaning of the scripture when he him selfe in the next leafe before affirmeth that prayer and
successions did euer chuse out for the warrant of their faith from amongest the reste the Roman Seate And now when there is no apostolike Church left in the whole worlde but it that they will seeke to Churchies whereof there is neither certainty nor succession when by plaine open dealing we may reduce and must needes referre our faith to that which was euer of all other most farre from falshoodde 3 Euery man in the primitiue Church compted the springe of his faith more pure if he coulde deriue it out of the holy Scriptures and shew the continuance thereof in any of the Apostolicke Churches whereof Rome was but one And condemned all heresies of nouelty or later string which coulde not bring the first author of their heresies eyther from any of the Apostles or apostolicke men which cōtinued in the doctrine of the Apostles as Tertullian doth in that booke De praescriptionibus aduersus haereses The like doth Irenaeus And that these men specially named the Church of Rome it was because the Church of Rome at that time as it was founded by the Apostles so it continued in the doctrine of the Apostles And these heretikes for the most parte had bene sometimes of the Church of Rome as Valentinus Marcion Nouatus But none of these fathers as M. Allen woulde haue it appeare was such a sclaue to the Church of Rome that what so euer pleased the Byshoppes of that Sea they were ready to accept For then woulde not Irenaeus so sharpely haue reproued Victor as Eusebius declareth of him Lib. 5. cap. 25. Cyprian woulde not haue taken vp Cornelius and Stephanus as appeareth by his epistles Hieronym woulde not haue bene so bolde to call Rome the purple whore of Babylon Praefat. ad Paulinū in lib. Didym Nor to compare the bishoppe of Eugubium with the bishop of Rome Euagrio nor to make the Church of England equall with the Church of Rome Nec iam altera Romanae vrbis ecclesia altera totius orbis existimanda est Et Gallia Britania Africa Bersis Oriens Indiae omnes barbarae nationes vnum Christum adorant vnam obseruant regulam veritatis Si authoritas quaeritur orbis maior est vrbe Neither must we thinke that there is one Church of the citye of Rome an other of all the worlde beside Both France and Britayne and Africa and Persia and the Easte and India and all barbarous nations worship one Christ keepe one rule of trueth If authoritie be sought the world is greater then one citye c. Loe Syr here is a Church and christianity and a rule of trueth with out the byshoppe of Rome with out the Church of Rome yea and contrary to the church of Rome For to them that alleged the custome of the church of Rome he sayth Quid mihi profers vnius vrbis cōsuetudinem what bring you me the custome of one citye and Augustine him selfe that knwe so well to fetch an heretike ouer the coles I trowe fetched Zosimus Bonifacius and Coelestinus byshoppes of Rome meetly well ouer the coles when he and his fellowes the byshoppes of Africa tooke them with plaine forgerie and falsification of the canons of the councell of Nice Consilio Milebitano Africano As for that which M. Allen compteth so strange is for lacke of skill and right iudgement For the same cause that moued those auncient fathers to appeale to the iudgment of the church of Rome moueth vs now to condemne the church of Rome of heresie wherefore did they reuerence the church of Rome Aske Tertullian he aunswereth because it had by succession reteined euen vntill his dayes that faith which it did first receiue of the Apostles Therefore it was a true Church therefore it was an apostolicke Church which because it doth not nowe neither hath done of many yeares and hath nothing to boast of but the empty names of many good bishops but thrise as many more of cursed Antichristes therefore it is nowe a false church and a company of heretikes departed from the auncient Romaines true and apostolicke faith 4 Bring my faith once to S. Gregory and the very streame shall driue me to S. Peter and Paule maugre all their beardes In which ordre of Byshops finde me one that set forth by decree any practise of contrary doctrine to that which his next predecessor did before him mainteine I will go seeke with the stray a newe mother Church to founde my faith vpon If all be in this succession salfe and sounde what a folly were it to forsake our owne mother and spring of our belefe to seeke other which haue often erred when they stoode and nowe be almost wholy decaide But yet it is wisedome for false teachers with all force to flie from so greate light as maye arise to the trueth by the recognising of that sounde succession and going the iuste contrary way from the olde doctors faith it is not to be thought straunge that they directly seeke to ouerthrowe that bulwarcke which they euer leaned vnto in the stormes of schisme and heresie The shrewes do knowe full well the might of trueth in that Seate and succession to haue beaten downe all their forefathers the heretikes of all agies They feare their fall whose steppes they follow They vtter much malice torment them selfe in euery sermon in vaine that Church feeleth no sore but in sorow of compassion towardes her forsakers she hath bidden greater stormes then this first by tyraunts then by heretikes last and most by the euill life of her owne Bishoppes In all which she yet standeth and euer riseth to honour as she is most impugned Their owne preaching hath singularly opened the might of God in the defense of that Seate of vnity VVhen they first beganne to touche and taunt the Pope in euery sermon in euery playe in booke and balate men that before liuing in faithfull simplicitie much medled not with his matters nor often hearde of his name beganne straight upon their busy ralinge to conceiue by reasonable discretion that there lay some greate grounde of matter and weight of trueth vpon that point which they coulde not digest in so many yeares bauling and barking at his name they saw the Pope euer in their way neuer out of their mouth and they doubted not but that singular hatred grew vpon some great importance and so admonished luckely by the aduersaries they sought the bottom of that perfecte and deepe hatered and found that it was the olde sore of the Arians and disease of the Donatistes and common to all heretikes they perceiued by S. Cyprian that the first attempte of such men was to driue awaye the pastor that they might with out resistance deuour and destroie the flocke And which was the pricke of all their endeuours to take from vs the acknowledging of the great and singular benefite of our conuersion to the faith that in stopping the heade of that condeth and plentifull well of our faith
they might in heate of contention and heresie casely drie vp the whole ishue therof And this earnest consideration causeth many at this daye to forsake their heresies and to be a greate deale mo at this time which know the trueth of this matter then when they beganne first to preach thereof 4 Bring this mans faith to Gregory then the streame shall driue him to Peter and Paule Nay M. Allen bring you your faith from Peter and Paule by good testimony of their holy writings and then you shall not neede to rowe in Cockelaurels bote neither with streame nor against it But you offer vs fayre play we must bring you one Bishop of Rome that did set forth by decree any practise of contrary doctrine to that which his next predecessor did before him mainteyne and you will seeke a newe mother Church If I should bring you Sabinianus which controlled the decrees of Gregory or Stephanus that condemned the decrees of Formosus from which time the story testifieth that it grewe vnto a custome that euery Bishop would coÌ„demne his predecessors decrees you woulde aunswere that all this was without your compasse So will you say if I name Honorius who was an heretike of the sect of the Monothelites condemned both by his successor and by a generall councell I bring no small proofes M. Allen but such as you can not with for greater Looke in the sixt generall councell holden at Constantinople Acti 13. there shall you reade that the decretall epistle of Honorius whereby he confirmed Sergius in his heresie was redde and burned Honorius him selfe anathematized as an heretike Loke a litle further vnto the 18. action there shall you find the decretall epistle of Pope Leo the second written to the councell wherein he condemneth Honorius his predecessor for an heretike and his doctrine for heresie But what say you to Liberius Felix whereof eyther one or as Ieronym affirmeth both were Arians how were their decrees liked of their successors how did they allowe the decrees of their predecessors Finally where as you say that our earnest often preaching against the Pope hath wonne you so many Catholikes we will by Gods grace continue to gratifie you still by that meanes and geue you good leaue when you haue counted your cardes to boast of your winnings 5 But I will not presse them ouer sore suppose I graunt them that which they would so gladly winne that we had not our faith first from Rome though it be as false as God is true But suppose it were not so and I geue you leaue to father your faith where you will. If it be not vpon Latimer whome a foolish fellowe in the booke of conference betwixt Latimer and Ridley termeth the English Apostle as one more worthy of that name as he sayth then Augustine but else where you will and when you haue done proue me that your mother Church prayeth not for the departed in her Masse and solemne seruice and you shall be exalted vp for euer And at your next chaunge frame your newe communion after that olde vsage on Gods blessinge If you can finde any forme of celebration farre enough from ours followe it and spare not But I am sure you shall neuer be hable to finde any olde seruice in the worlde fit for your newe diet They be all to much like our Masse for your purpose as in deede alone in euery pointe of importance with ours As the Churches to whome they belonged perfectly before their decay in faith and vnity agreed with ours 5 Although we account Latimer for a worthy teacher and more worthy of the name of an Apostle for his apostolike doctrine then Augustine the Monke yet builde we our faith as you know neither vpon him nor any other but onely vpon the word of god And as for our mother Church is no certayne place or company of men in any one place vpon earth but Ierusalem which is aboue is mother of vs all Galat. 4. And who so euer were children of this Church would neuer find fault with our communion which can not be condemned by the worde of God and therefore careth not for the comparison of the custome of other men which whether they vsed the like or not in forme of wordes which is not materiall so they vsed not other substance of matter except they did it beside the word of god How like your Masse is to other couÌ„try masses when there was neuer any masse but yours I leaue it to consider and compare to all them that had rather see the truth them selues then to be deceiued by you 6 I am sure when you can not like your owne communion ye woulde not be pleaced with one of an others making But an other you must needes haue and further you must go from vs walke forwarde you will to the extreme ende of heresie and vtter denying of Christianity All the world can not stoppe your falling from the hill of Gods Church till you come in the bottomlesse pit of Hell. I woulde be loth to sclaunder them with the brute of the worlde which though it be in euery mans mouth that they like not this communion yes vpon that rumour I would not haue sayd so farre but that they haue vttered their owne meaning in a treatise of their owne making in these wordes In mariage as in all other thingeâ— beside we are but to much like vnto them that is our â—ault generally that we differ not more from them in all our ministerie These wordes vtter their griefe that they can got no further from vs in their seruice and that you be not deceiued the author of this booke where this complainte is made knoweth well the meaning of his fellowes herein and how gladde they woulde be shiftinge forwarde They sit on thornes till they be doing with a newe gise It is no worse man then the B. of Duresme that taketh colde in so longe a stand of their communion My simple head coulde not deuise how they might possibly go forwarde and kepe them with in any bonde of Christianity VVhat they caste in their braine for their further proceding I can not tell the serpent is suttel and our sinnes be greate 6 If any man mislike the forme of our seruice as not differing sufficiently from yours he sheweth his greater zeale in detestation of your idolatry and blasphemy In the meane time what neede this great wondring for once or twise alteration in the forme where the matter is still reteyned when if we shall beleue your owne stories your seruice hath not had much lesse then an hundreth innouations so often as one peece or other was added or patched to it And yet in this one cuntry of England howe many diuerse formes of seruice had you so that you could neuer grow to vniformitie Yorke Salesbury Bangor Hereford c. 7 I much maruaill not nowe to see the temporall Magistrates of their wisedomes to hedge these mens
hearte or eare coulde abide these blasphemous tonguesâ— who of vntolerable arrogancy doe so deface the examples and doctrine not onely of the pillours of the whole Christian Church whome they impudently for lacke of a more reasonable aunswere condemne not onely of simple ignoraunce and errour in this point with the residue of the whole faithfull people which surely is ouer much to say of such learned and godly men as they were but also of wilfull errour and superstition in bearing and maintenaunce of the common ignoration and ethnicke perswation of the worlde in their dayes and following the heathen vsage of the gentilitie And yet not content therewith these lying maisters of their meere mercy be content to offer a pardon to the author of that booke for his errour which booke the whole catholike Church of God through out Christiandome taketh for canonicall scripture VVhich arrogancy and passing boldnesse although I perswade my selfe no vertuous man will in them allowe sith they nowe being put to their shiftes vtterly doe condemne those fathers whose names with great oftentation they often to the simple repeate to make them suppose they be not with out scripture or doctors for the proofe of their willfull heresies yet euen the very aâ—nswere it selfe which they imagine here in to disgrace the doctors and delude the ignoraunt is contrary to it selfe in sundry points For they one while affirme that S. Augustine and others allowed that errour which the people by their superstitious deuotion had before their time brought in to the prayers of the Church and an other while that Iudas Machabaeus did institute it who was before these authors diuars hundreths of yeares and somewhile that they borowed it of the gentilitie all which pointes be repugnant eche to other For neither coulde that beginne in our Christian doctours dayes which was vsed before Christes birthe neither neede they to borowe it of the heathen which was in estimation and praysed amongest the Iewes 9 We neede no shiftes M. Allen for the authoritie of the doctors whome we neuer allow for canonicall Scriptures and therefore we may boldly say as Augustine sayth of Cyprian what so euer we find in them agreable to the Scriptures we receaue it with their prayse and what so euer is disagreeable to the Scriptures we refuse with their leaue Now by what meanes they fell into this errour that maintained prayer and almes for the dead I shal haue better occasion to shew in the aunswere to the 14. chapter although it be not greatly material to know how they came into errour when it is sufficiently proued that they did erre As for the abridgement of Iason the Cyrenians story which M. Allen maketh such a precious iewell I haue aunswered inough before that the author him selfe desiring pardon of his readers hath testified sufficiently that he was no scribe of the holy Ghost as also by many other vnauoydable reasons with the consent of the Catholike Church which it were superfluous here to repete Finally whereas you say that our aunswere is contrary to it selfe you seeke a knot in a rush For all may be true First the deuill suggested superstitious deuotion into the Gentiles by peruerse emulation of whom Iudas might be deceiued and his fact giue occasion to the ignorant people of errour and their ignorance first winked at because it had a shew of pietie confirmed by custome might at length be allowed of Augustine and others who neuer weighed the matter by Scriptures but by the commoÌ„ practise And this I thinke is the right degree of prayers for the deade and purgatory That the praying for the dead vvas appointed to be had in the holy sacrifice by the Apostles commaundement and prescription And that our doctors by the maiesty of their name beare dovvne our light aduersaries CAP. XIII 1 BVt that this falshood may better appeare in these men we will by good testimony trye out when and by whom the oblation and sacrifice with other ordinarie reliefes of the departed were so vniformely vsed through the Christian worlde as like wise it shall be profitable to consider who were the first authors of the contrary opinions And that the holy Ghost by the Apostles owne preaching and prescription was the first author of this solemne supplicatioÌ„ in masses of all vsages for the departed I might first proue by this generall rule of S. Augustine Quod vniuersa tenet ecclesia nec concilijs institutum sed semper retentum est non nisi authoritate apostolica traditum rectissime credimus that which the whole Church obserueth and hath alwayes so bene kepte being not instituted by any Councell it can not otherwise be had but by the Apostles authoritie and tradition And so by the like saying of Leo the greate Dubitandum non est quicquid in ecclesia in consuetudinem est deuotionis retentum de traditione apostolica de S. Spiritus prodire doctrina It can not be doubted but that what so euer is in the Church by generall custome of deuotion kept and mainteined it came out of the Apostles traditioÌ„ and doctrine of the holy Ghost But I will seeke with them by certaine demonstration and plaine ordre of reason that it must needes so be Praying for the deade was inuented by no man sith the Apostles dayes there can no one be named by the aduersary before whome I can not name an other that praide for the dead Let him say where he list this man or that man was the first that euer praide for the deade in Christes Church if I can not shewe an other before him so named to haue praide also we will take him for the first author and then he fully stoppeth our course that we can not bring this obseruation so high as the Apostles dayes But if the aduersary can apoint me out no time nor person that began this vsage before which I am not able to proue it was practised then they can not let vs but we must needs driue it vpwarde to the Apostles and Christes owne institution CAP. XIII 1 IF prayer for the deade was appoynted by the Apostles commaundement why is there neuer a worde thereof in their writinges there is warrant â—or lesser matters then this is made of why is this and all other popish trash counted their tradition which can not be warranted by their writing If I were disposed to pose you this question would make you clawe your poll an hundred times before you could imagine any couloâ—able aunswere for right aunswere you shall neuer be able to make But I take not vpon me to pose but to aunswere first your authoritie of Augustine serueth not your turne for prayers for the deade haue not bene alwayes obserued namely in the Apostles times nor long after The saying of Leo the great may be backed with the writing of Leo the great Epi. 10. Sed in hanc insipientiam cadunt qui cum ad cognoscendum veritatem aliquo impediuntur
obscuro non ad propheticas voces non ad apostolicas literas nec ad euangelicas auctoritates sed ad semetipsos recurrunt Sed ideò erroris magistri existunt quia veritatis discipuli non fuerunt They fall into this folly which when they be hindered by any obscuritie to knowe the truth haue not recourse to the words of the Prophets nor to the writings of the Apostles nor to the authoritie of the Gospell but to them selues But therefore are they maisters of error because they haue not ben schollers of truth In these words Leo as great as you would haue him maketh the Scriptures not customes or traditioÌ„s the rule of truth But I will come to your demonstration which you call a sure way to try the beginning of any doctrine yet vnder correction of your demonstratiue Logike I may be bold to say it is not the proper way nor the way by which all doctrine may be tryed and so you breake 2. of those principal rules that Aristotle giueth for demonstration 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for the proper way to try all doctrine is by coÌ„ferring it with the word of God Againe the first author of euery heresie can not be named There was one heresie of them that were called Acephali because there was no head knowne of them It is harde to name the first authour of the Manichees whom the heretikes them selues call an Apostle of Christ. The Chiliastes the Ophâ—tes the Caineanes the Sethoites the Adamianes the Melchezedâ—chianes the Apostolike the Hemerobaptistes and an hundred more heresies shall they be thought to haue their heresie from tradition of the Apostles if the first author of them can not be named yet I weene it will be hard for him to proue out of any authenticall writer that any before Tertullian either named or allowed prayer for the deade who was almost 2. hundreth yeares after the incarnation of Christ. 2 If they answere me that this vsage is crept into the church sith the Apostles time though the first author can not be knowen I will also prouide that there no shift shall serue them Therefore I aske them whether that man which first preached it was resisted by the rest of Gods Church which before his preaching beleued the contrarie or no That is it say this doctrine of praying for the deade when it first came into the church did any of the true pastors free from the same error barke like a good shepheard against the beginner of that which they count so great a corruption of trueth Or all the Church was corrupted with it on one daye say what you thinke likest in this case aunswere with any probability or reason if you can saye plainely was our doctrine euer preaâ—hed against or neuer if it neuer were preached against then it neuer beganne as any noueltie or newe doctrine For it coulde not be that the Church being free from that doctrine shoulde straight without contradiction allowe that which they liked not before Howe can any man arise in the common welth and bring the vtter decay of all the olde ordres which he findeth and erect vp a new deuise of his owne and neuer man speake a word against him but all in one moment allow and like the same and that without all recorde by memory or monument of any chaunge But this thinge is most farre from the Churches and Gods pastors diligeÌ„ce that neuer receiued false doctrine without open contradiction and plaine noting the party that first began it as we shal plucke our gentlemen by the slieue a none All those that haue any skill in the antiquitie will beare me recorde that the pastors did neuer holde their peace when any wolfe did but once open his mouth against the sheepe They can tell that she did neuer beare the preaching or practise of any false and erroneous doctrine for one day together then it must needes consequently followe that the doctrine of purgatory and oblation for the departed with still consent of all nations receiued in the Catholike Church had no beginning after the first institution of our faith and worship of God but hath ioyned from the first grounde of our Christian institution in Christes faith with that sacrifice and due honour of God which the Apostles by the suggestion of the holy Ghost planted in all nations with the same faith Thus I make my argument euery falsehood was preached against and withstanded when it is first entered but this doctrine of purgatory and praying for the deade being alwayes vsed was neuer controwled nor gainsaide in Gods Church therfore it is no falsehood nor euer had any later institution then the Apostles owne prescription 2 Supposing that this errour crept into the Church though the first author thereof can not be knowne he demaundeth whether any man preached against it when it began first to be receiued I aunswere if the Pastors of the Church had done their duty to the vttermost it could not so easily haue preuayled And yet it is not to be thought but that some of the true Pastors in that tyme opposed them selues against it although the history of the Church in that time whâ—n it began to be spreade is to briefe vnperfect that we should be able to name who they were that preached against it Of so many heresies as Epiphanius nameth in his time it were hard to require and vnpossible to shew who preached against euery one of them at their first entrance yet they be damnable heresies In S. Augustines dayes of whose time the history of the Church is largely set forth vnto vs who preached or writte against that error which he and Innocentius Bishop of Rome al the church as he confessed did hold that infants must receiue the holy communion or else they should be damned Who preached against this error except perhaps the Pelagians that were horrible heretikes Was all the Church corrupted with it in one day If euery heresie had bene beaten down as fast as it sprang Antichrist should neuer haue set vp his throne in the temple of god If God had not sent into the world the efficacy of error that they which refused to beleue the truth should be iustly condemned to beleue lyes the man of sinne and sonne of perdition had neuer aduauÌ„ced him selfe aboue all that is called God. 2. Thessal 2. And therefore M. Allen plucke not vs by the sleue but your self by the nose you are the heretikes that refuse to beleue the truth you are they that turne away your eares from truth to fables you are they that attend to spirites of error and doctrines of deuills forbidding to marry and abstayning from meates which God hath created to be receiued with thankes giuing There is the brande marke of Romish religion that all the water in Tiberis nor in the Ocean sea shal not be able to wash out Must we finde out the authors of your heresies Nay iustifie
them your selues by the worde of God if you can And because you bring in a witty example of the common wealth I will aunswere you with the like Must the Magistrate either iustifie a theefes possession or else bring out the author where he had it Nay the theefe must bring out good proofe howe and by whom he came by such goods or else he is worthy to be serued like such a one So shall you not compell vs to tell you where when or how your heresie came in seeing it is sufficient for vs to shew that it came not from God nor by the Apostles nor through their doctrine But you doe well to conclude your reason in a syllogisme for then by the weakenes therof doth appeare your maior and minor be both false or at the least wise vnable to be proued of you For euery falshod hath not bene preached against at the first entry And how are you able to proue that purgatory and praying for the deade hath not bene preached against therfore your conclusion is as true and as certeyne as your premisses 3 But what needes all this a doe by their owne consent we shall driue this doctrine thirtene C. yeares vpward For so neare was Tertullian the Apostles dayes whome they confesse to haue practised that pointe of oblations for the deade And aske him where he had it for surely he inuented it not him selfe and he appointeth vs to his forefathers he nameth the Apostles for the authors and founders thereof as of many other thinges which he there reckeneth beside that were generally receiued and nowe be of heretikes likewise contemned VVe might yet steppe two C. yeare forward and find amongest the Apostles owne hearers the same doctrine both allowed and practised but that they will make exception of Dionysius and Clements workes such shiftes men must finde that will defend falshood Other I will name that be out of their exceptions VVho I thinke as well for their time knowledge and credit as their excellent vertue both can and will better tell the origine of that thinge the authors whereof were more nigh their time then ours If they woulde beleue S. Augustine as they often professe they will the matter might soone be ended but because I feare they stand so much in the corrupt conceite of their owne singularitie that they will be bold to reiect him I shall both lay him to their charges diuers other of greater antiquity that shal in expresse words affirme this vsage to come from the Apostles owne schoole That thereby they may either acknowledge their errors or else by such graue and vncorrupt iudges be condemned of willfull malitious blindnesse Thus S. Augustine writeth By the prayers of the holy Church the profitable sacrifice and almes bestowed for the soules departed out of all doubt the deceased be releued so that thereby almighty God may deale more mercifully with them thē their sinnes required For this practise deliuered vnto vs by our fathers is obserued vniuersally in Christes Church that for such as be departed in the communion of Christes body and bloud when at the sacrifice they be orderly named praiers shoulde be made and the same sacrifice mentioned to be done for them Here by his words thou vnderstands that the profit rising by the prayers or sacrifice to the departed hath no doubt in it They were through the world vsed not in the Church which they say hath bene for nyne C. yeares corrupted by supersticious ignorāce but in that Church which our aduersaires doe confesse maugre their heades to haue bene holy Catholike and Apostolike And it was not then begon but receiued by the prouision of Gods holy spirite of the Apostles whome he calleth the fathers of our faith 3 It is not denied but Tertuillan maketh mention of oblations for the dead but what kind of oblations it is not yet agreed vppon but such they were as were offered for mens birthes for they be ioyned togither Oblationes pro defunctis pro natalitijs annua die facimus we make oblations yearely for the day of mens death and the day of mens birth Now it is not like they offered prayers but thākes giuing for mens birth and euen so for their death For those places out of the other bookes where he speaketh of prayers for mens spirites I will consider afterward But in this booke de corona militis if oblations were prayers which he saith came from the Apostles he vtterly denyeth that they came from the Scriptures Therefore by Tertullians iudgement you doe abuse the Scriptures which woulde wrest them to proue out of them that which he sayth can not be proued by them But think you prayers for the dead came from the Apostles because he sayth so If you aunswere yea then must you likewise thinke that it is a wicked thing to fast on Sonday or to pray on your knees for in the same place he sayth that these opinions came also from the Apostles If you aunswere he sayth vntruely of these so doe we answere of the other Now come backe of your 13. hundreth yeares to seeke your apostolike tradition where you can finde it All is not Gospell that Tertullian hath sayd As for the works of Clemens and Dionysius you know full well they be not currant and therefore I maruell at your modestie that you will not now oppresse vs with them But it is because you haue store enough beside Howbeit if the most auncient fayle you it is not for the later sorte to helpe you If Tertullian had no ground of his saying when he affirmed that oblations for the deade came from the Apostles what ground can Augustine haue which was 200. yeares farther from the Apostles time then he But where you charge vs to confesse that the Church in Augustines time was holy Catholike and Apostolike you must witte if you will that although we may so confesse in respect of the substance of true doctrine which then was taught yet we doe not therby iustifie euery error superstition of that age But as Augustine sayth in his retractations lib. 2. cap. 18. he doth not meane that the Church is pure and perfect in this life with out all spot of blemish for euen the whole Church by reason of certeine ignorance and infirmities of her members hath neede to say euery day Forgiue vs our debtes 4 Athanasius me thinke the aduersary part should quake when I name him who was in his dayes terrible to the wicked odible to heretikes to all vertuous mē an especiall stay in the troblesome times of the Church whose grace was so great that he abbrigeth our whole faith into a briefe psalme called the Creede of Athanasius which is beleued of all Christian men no lesse then the holy Scriptures of the new Testament VVho as he right well knewe howe to defend him selfe against the wicked Arrians by the doctrine of the Catholike Church so he hath left vs in writing howe to
of Christes institution the Apostles tradition the vniuersall practise of the primitiue Church And what so euer great wordes beside you haue streyned your lunges to pronounce you haue sayd nothing for oblation or prayer for the deade to be the institution of Christ and all this geere but I may say the same for the drinking of milke and hony after baptisme for not fasting on Sonday ▪ or prayer on knees c by like vniuersalitie antiquitie consent authoritie 8 If the authors be past hope yet their followers shall take goodly occasion to forsake such wicked maisters and be ashamed of all their vndecent dealyng if they note and consider with me that the first preachers of this peruerse opinion were such that none of all their scholars durst euer for shame for the proofe of their assertion name their owne doctors And truely a man might well maruel why heretikes hauing some that did plainely professe their opinions had yet rather picke out some darke sentence of any one of our holy fathers whome they knowe to be directly against them then out of those same doctors of their owne which in expresse wordes make for them You shall not lightly heare an heretike that denieth praying to sainctes or holdeth with open breache of holy vowes alleage Iouinianus or Vigilantius Nor a Sacramentarie seeke for the authoritye of Berengarius or Wicleffe though they be of some antiquitie and without colour plainely doe mainteine the doctrine that so well lyketh them But they will trauell to writh with plaine iniurie to the author some sentence out of Augustine or Ambrose or some other that by their whole life and practise open them selues to the worlde to beleue the contrary and all this by some shewe of wordes for the bearing of their false assertions Marke it well I saye in heretikes that they can not for shame of them selues euer name any of the plaine auouchers of their owne opinions The cause is that the only vpholding of their opinions made them infamous to the whole posterity And if any honour grewe vnto them amongest the simple because they lacked not the wayes to procure the peoples consent with admiration of their eloquence or other plausible and populare qualities in their dayes yet trueth following time their same raised vpon so light causes easely decayd and the grounde of perpetuall infamie sattled in wise mens heartes by the wickednesse of their attemptes remained for a testimony to all posteritie of their shame and ignominie And this I speake not onely of the authors of our common sectes for they neuer atteined to any shade of famous report in their dayes because they coulde deceiue none but simple wemen but I meane by Arius him selfe and Pelagius with the like who in their owne time being of great esteeme amongest many whome they deceiued yet after their death more more they grew to shame and infamie so farre that who so euer were of their opinions afterward durste not yet for shame vse their name or authority for proofe of their owne doctrine See you not in our dayes howe freshe the name of Luther Caluin Bucer with that rable was amongest the rude people whome they had wonne either with speach or pleasure of licentious doctrine and loe nowe it decayeth in a maner or their bones be coulde The peoples sensies raueshed with the present pleasure of such as they hearde last like them so longe as they heare them afterwarde their memory remaineth onely to malediction Vidi impium superexaltatum eleuatum sicut Cedros Libani transiui ecce non est quaesiui non est inuentus locus eius I haue seene the wicked exalted and set vp as the Cedre trees of Libanus I passed by and loe out of hande he is no body I sought him and his abiding can not be founde VVho so euer shall seeke for our glorious preachers with in this C. yeare he shall finde them in such estimation then as their forefathers be nowe that is to say to be vnworthy the naming of their owne adherents if any of that secte liue and last so longe For let them neuer looke to come to the infamous fame of Arrius the best of all these secte maisters not worthy to be scholar to a hundreth of his followers Thus loe is the case of heretikes liked of fooles when they be alieue contemned of all men when they are deade 8 M. Allen marueileth and giueth a speciall note that we name not Iouinian Vigilantius Berengarius or VVickleffe to be the authors of our doctrine but rather hang vppon some sentence of Augustine or Ambrose and thinketh we are ashamed of the other In deede if we depended vpon any mens authoritie or that any man or men were the authors of our faith as it fareth with the popish faith we should be iniurious vnto them if we did not acknowledge our foūders as they doe some of theirs But seeing God him selfe is the father of that doctrine which we haue receiued by his holy word we neither boast vpon Augustine nor Ambrose when they dissent therefro neither are ashamed of Vigilantius nor Beringarius when they agree therewith We refuse not the truth that Tertullian Origin haue taught because they taught heresies also neither do we receiue the errors of Cypriā Augustin because they taught many points of true faith Onely the canonicall Scriptures are the rule by which we iudge of all men and their writings of all doctrine and the teachers therof It is a ridiculous thing that M. Allen like a cold Prophet taketh vpon him to tell what shall be thought of our preachers names within these hundred yeares But what so euer he prateth the memory of the righteous shall remayne for euer neither shall they be afrayde of any euill reporte their names are written in the booke of life which are ordeyned vnto eternall glory howso euer they be accounted of by the wicked of this worlde And yet there is no cause why we should not thinke that the names and writings of Luther Caluine and Bucer shal remayne in good account with Gods Church euen vntil they them selues shall come with Christ to iudge the worlde when in the meane time Eccius Pighius Cocleus and such other shall not be remembred but as obstinate withstanders of the truth and enemies of the Gospell 9 Now in the doctors of Gods Church it is cleane contrarie and no lesse worthy to be noted for our purpose for their honour and estimation rising vpon the sure vnfallible grounde of Gods trueth by yeares and time gathereth such force that not onely their memorie is in perpetuall benediction before God but their workes follow them in the mindes of their posteritie to their owne eternall praise and benefite of all their followers And which is much more to be woundered at they haue so passed enuy and malice of man that euen those which deadly hate them dare not but praise them And such as mislike their doctrine
whose workes the aduersaries woulde be glad of one likely sentence And whose life and doctrine are so glorious in Gods Church that their owne aduersaries raling at vs aliue yet dare not but with great feare once blemish their names departed Though sometimes it brastithe out in some one of them to their owne miscredit So beutifull is the light of trueth And on the other side howe miserable is their carefull case that followe and defende that doctrine the authors whereof they dare neither acknowledge nor name whome all good men with open mouth boldely doe reprehend and their owne scholars dare not defende Such a glorious maiesty this doctrine of theires beareth that pricketh vp with pryde those that be alyue and blotteth out of honest memorie her doctors that be deade 10 Nay M. Allen though those doctors build some hay or stuble vpon the onely foundation Christ their case is ten thousand times better then yours which build nothing but dirt and donge tempered with hay and stuble vpon no foundation at all except it be the sande and seeke by all meanes to digge vp the onely true foundation of our fayth Iesus Christ making him nothing better then a common person except his bare name and woe may be to such Catholikes as can finde nothing but hay and stuble where such store of precious matter is and the most precious corner stone the foundation of all excellency And happy be those which not regarding the streames of waters that runne through the vaynes of earth but seeking to the onely fountayne of heauenly truth conteyned in the holy scriptures haue certeyne comfort of saluation while they are aliue and sure possession of felicitie with Christ as soone as they are dead yea which dye not at all because they beleue in Christ which is life nor enter into iudgement but passe from death of this body which is temporall vnto life of body and soule which is eternall The first Author of that secte vvhich denieth prayers for the departed is noted his good condicions and cause of his error be opened vvhat kinde of men haue bene most bent in all ages to that secte And that this heresy is euer ioyned as a fit companion to other horrible sectes CAP. XIIII 1 BVt yet because they haue diffamed our practise in praying and offering for the deade by referring it to a later origine then the Apostolike authority and tradition seeing we haue fathered our vsage vpon such as the aduersaries dare not blame we will helpe them to seeke out the fathers of their faithles perswasion lest by the feare and bashfullnesse of their owne scholars they be vnkindly forgotten Mary to finde out these obscure loyterers it will be somewhat painefull because as theeues doe they kepe by wayes and lightly treade not in honest mens pathes For the finding out of recordes for the testimony of our trueth we kepte the day light the high waye of Gods Church All the knowen notable personages in the holy Citye of God offered them selues both to witnesse and proue with vs VVe droue this trueth from our dayes through the middest of that holy communitie which S. Augustine calleth the Citye of God and our aduersaries will not saye otherwise but they were the liuely membres of that happy and heauenly fellowship VVe brought the practise of it to the holy Apostles by plaine accompte we went with the trueth of our cause to the lawe of Moyses from thense by like light to the lawe of nature But nowe for the other sorte we must leaue the cytie of God and the fellowship of these noble personages of doctors Apostles Prophets and Patriarches and seeke on the lifte hande in the other citye which is of Augustine named the citye or common welth as a man might call it of the deuill in which body all practise of mischiefe and origin of error ishuing from that vnhappy heade to the corrupt and deadly limmes thereof is to be founde VVe shall heare of the aduersary perswasion then in the company of Anabaptistes of Arrians of Saduceis of Epicures where so euer the weedes of the common enemies corrupte seede groweth there shall we find amongest breares and brembles this choking weede with all For as the true preachers the Apostles of Christ Iesu did sowe in the beginning of the Christian church which was the springe of the worde of lyfe and trueth amongest other heauenly seedes of true doctrine that profitable practise for the reliefe of such as were hense departed in the sleepe of peace with the decent ordre which euer fithens the Catholicke Church hath obediently followed euen so Inimicus homo superseminauit zizania the common enemy came afterwarde and ouersewe darnell and cockle either for the vtter choking or else for the especiall let of that good seede which the Maister of this fielde by his houshold seruauntes had plentifully sowen before This common aduersarie as our maister him selfe expoundeth it is the Deuill who as he in all other thinges beneficiall to mankinde is a great staye so Christian mens commoditie in this point he notably hindereth by his wicked suggestions and deuilish deuise whereby he prouoketh many vnder the shewe of Gods word or bare name therof for that is the lambes cote which this wyely wolfe boroweth to maske in to be vnkind vnnaturall and with out all godly affection towards their departed frendes The which contrary corrupt seede of false doctrine we right well know came of the sayd aduersary because it was long after ouersowen learning further of Tertullian Id verum esse quodcunque primum id adulterinum quod posterius That to be true that was first taught and that to be false and forged which came latter CAP. XIIII 1 WHen the Apostolike writing can not be shewed it is but the poynt of an heretike to boast of Apostolike tradition So did the Valentinians although their heresie were newe when they were confuted by the Scriptures shrowed them selues vnder the name of traditions as we haue shewed before out of Irenaeus lib. 3. ca. 2. And therfore it is but vayne bragging that you promise to seeke out any other fathers of our perswasion then the Apostles of Christ by whose holy writings we neuer refuse to be iudged what if any heretike haue affirmed some thing that is true is truth worse in an heretikes mouth The deuills them selues confessed christ Their confession was true their testimony was refused So if any heretike haue confessed the truth we may receiue the truth and yet reiect his testimony For truth hath testimony of God his word and whether it be affirmed or denyed by the deuill it is all one The high way that you prate of is a bye way for the Scripture is the onely high way to the truth with the guidance of Gods spirite And yet that way which you haue taken hath so many hills and holes woods and thickets that you haue rather flyen ouer it in a dreame and imagination
then trauailed through it in deede when you walked through the city of God which Augustine describeth I maruaile you could not see the westerne Babylon Rome to be the city or cōmon wealth of the deuill lib. 16. cap. 17. lib. 18. cap. 21. cap. 22. cap. 27. The mother of all abominations of the earth which either inuented or tempered of others inuention that golden cuppe full of abominations vncleanes of her whordoms with which she made drunken all the Kinges of the earth And therefore that we can not reade out of the word of God we shall heare of Purgatory among the Paganes Carpocratianes Heracleonites and Montanistes of whose heresies and pestilent practises the whore of Babylon hath patcht vp her purgatory and sacrifices for the deade as by and by I shall declare In deede the enuious man the deuil hath sowed these wicked sect masters And that doctrine which is first agreeable to Tertullians rule is vndoubtedly true and that which is later is false But howe shall the first doctrine be knowen but by the word of God wherein all the doctrine of God is taught But by the holy Scriptures which are able to make the man of God perfect and prepared to all good workes And seeing praying and offering for the deade as Tertullian him selfe confesseth is not taught by the Scriptures it is no good worke whereto the man of God should be prepared And for as much as you haue giuē me example of a syllogisme in Baroco in the last chapter I wil frame you the like nowe All good workes are taught by the Scriptures oblatiōs for the deade are not taught by the Scriptures therefore oblations for the deade are no good workes The maior is S. Paule 2. Timot. 3. The minor is Tertullians de corona militis Deny the conclusion if you dare 2 And yet besides that generall and most certaine instruction learned Damascen helpeth vs to the trial of this peculiar case Doubting not to affirme that all such cogitations as doe entre into mans head against the prayers or charitable workes for the departed be the deuills enuious and subtill suggestions for the hinderaunce of our brethern departed from the heauenly ioyes For thus he writeth in a sermon for the same purpose That olde serpent sayeth he whose endeuoure is to corrupt and deface the good and acceptable workes of God to lay snares for the entrapping of mens soules who is much perced through brotherly loue and brasteth in sunder for the enuy that he beareth towardes our faith and finally is madded by our naturall compassion one towardes an other as one that is the vtter renouncer of all good lawes he enspireth to some a fayned and false imagination cleane contrary to the holy constitutions that is to saye that all good and acceptable workes before God shoulde no whit proffet the departed soules If this writers iudgement be good as it is sure most sounde then must all our vnnatural and vnkind preachers haue an especiall inspiration of the deuill him selfe so often as they hinder fauour and grace from the deade For as he reduced our origin to the Apostles so he doubteth not to auouche the contrary perswasion to be euidently moued by the olde serpent of especiall enuie towardes mans saluation And nowe if thou list knowe in whome this subtill suggestion tooke first place and roote after the longe vsage of the other according to the Apostles planting we shall make thee for thy especiall comfort partaker thereof also VVe will not vse the aduersaries as they doe vs charging vs with later preaching or doctrine then the Apostles planted yet can neither tell where nor by whome it beganne But we shal by open euidence call the woolfe by his name Let an heretike but set out foot and once open mouth though he doe no harme at all yet the watcheman of Israell hath him by the backe straight The dogges were neuer so dumme in Gods Church but they woulde barke at the first apparance of any straunge cattell For that the notation of his arising and name was not onely a warning to the present time to take heede to their faith but an admonition to all the posteritie to beware of the like And it was euer counted a refutation of an heresie to the full to reduce it to a latter infamous author by the certaine recorde of the Churches historie The which kinde of reason both amongest the learned hath singular strength and is sensible for the people and of the aduersarie vtterly inuincible Irenaeus vseth it against the heresies of his time as a demonstration of much force VVhat saith he before Valentinus there was none of that his false secte and he came in with his seede after the first preaching of our faith a good while I can tell when he beganne howe he increased how longe he continued Both he and that other Cerdon entered first vnder the gouernment of Hyginius grewe vpwarde vnder Pius and continued till Anicetus time and so making the like accompt of other archeheretikes at length thus he concludeth all these rose vp in their apostacie longe after that the Church was ordered in faith and doctrine In this sense spake Irenaeus 2 Damascene your doctor which knew the depth of Satan so well should first haue reproued that perswasion by Scripture and then it had bene easy to haue found out the policie of the deuill But when we learne by Scripture that your doctrine is contrary to the fayth and hope of Christians it is not hard to iudge that the deuill inuented it vnder colour of charitie to ouerthrow faith and vnder shewe of helpe of mē to dishonour god You spend many words in vayne to proue that the first author of an opinion being found the opinion is found to be an heresy It shal be graūted with all fauour but so that no man shall be counted the first author of an opinion that is able to proue his opinion out of the word of god And withall that who so euer is not able to proue by the word of God any opiniō that he holdeth obstinatly though he haue many authors before him yet is he neuerthelesse an heretike 3 But the rule is common and certaine as any can be in the worlde and I woulde stande vpon the grounde thereof against all false doctrine in the worlde and thus it is Any opinion that may be truely fathered vppon any priuate man that was longe after the trueth was first preached by the Apostles if it be vpon a point of our faith and contentiously mainteined it is an heresie And thus againe who so euer was withstande in his first arising and preaching by such as were in the vnitie of the Church he was a false teacher and his abettours be heretikes And the force of this conclusion is so greate that the heretikes them selues if they can get any likely shew of raysing of any doctrine or practise of Gods Church in these latter
dayes they thinke they haue a good argument against the Catholikes Therefore they woulde father transubstantiation vpon this Councell the adoration of the Sacrament vpon that Pope indulgencies vpon that byshop c. For they be as saulcie with Gods Church Councells chiefe gouernors as we be with the Iacke strawes of Geneua And yet when they haue traualed to their heartes ake they can finde no one thing first inuented by any of them whome they falsely name to be the authors thereof But well seeing it is so stronge an argument of heresie to haue the ofspring of a later author with plaine prouisò of Gods Church for his markinge let vs adde so much strength to our cause to haue the father of the contrary falshood knowen and noted of the antiquity by his name 3 If you haue not a better vnderstander then you are a rule giuer your rule is false for though you hedge it in with many conditiōs yet you leaue out the chiefest which is that the opinion it self be cōtrary to the truth first preached by the Apostles or else it is no heresie though it may be truely fathered vpon any man priuate or publike sooner or later And here I muse why you put in the condition of a priuate man belike if the Pope inuent a new doctrine because he is a publike person that can not erre it must not be taken for heresie In your second rule except you vnderstand that the opinion of him which is withstāded be new and of his owne inuention the withstanding thereof no not by good men maketh it not false They that defended that heretikes should not be rebaptised were withstoode by Cyprian and all the Bishops of Africa who were notwithstanding their error in the vnitie of the Church yet were they not heretikes nor their opinion heresie because it was not of their inuention but of the word of god And wheras you affirme that we can not find any of those thinges inuented by them by whome we say they were inuented though we trauail vntill our hartes ake I aunswere though you seeke vntill your head ake lye vntill you haue worne your tongue to the stumpes you shall neither finde those things in the word of God nor to haue any other authors thē the writers of your owne sect haue named to be the fathers of most of them And that you charge vs with like saucines towards your Prelates that you vse toward the Iacke strawes of Geneua if you had not thereby confessed your selfe to be a saucy Iacke you might haue giuen vs occasiō to think no lesse of you For although perhaps you count the chief teachers of that Church for Iacke strawes yet the worlde can testifie that there is more grauitie and modesty in the lightest persons of all that Church then hath appeared of many Popes and Cardinalls of your Church of Rome 4 Epiphanius that notable man in his booke that he wrote for the confutation of all the heresies that were before his time and in other of his workes too nameth an obscure fellowe one Aërius to be the first author of this heresie that prayers and sacrifice profiteth not the departed in Christ. But what maner a fellowe he was and how lickely to be the founder of such a schoole thou shalt perceiue best by the writers wordes When Aërius coulde not obteine the byshopricke of Eustathius deposed after that he was once perfectly well skilled in Arius doctrine he inuented new sectes of his owne affirming that there shoulde be no offering for the departed and of him loe the scholars were called Aërians Let not the simple whome I woulde helpe in this cause be deceiued by the liknes of these two names Arius and Aërius for this later was the author of their secte and was a follower of the first called Arius in his doctrine beside And of the same sect and sectmaister S. Augustine thus sayeth following Epiphanius The Aërians were so named by one Aërius who taking snoffe that he coulde not get a byshopricke fell into the heresie of Arius first and then added therevnto other heresies of his owne makinge saying that we shoulde not offer sacrifice for the deade nor obserûe the solemne appointed fastes of the Church but that euery man should abstaine when he liste And there both he and Epiphanius doe recken moe of his holy opinions which I omit For it is enough for our purpose and to confunde all the heretikes of our dayes that this opinion was noted as it spronge vp in the primitiue Church for heresie and the authors not onely condemned as heretikes in that point but in many other thinges beside For I neuer reade of nor yet knewe any heretike but if he once mistrusted the catholike Church the Deuill was hable to perswade with him as well in a numbre of matters as in one And that is the cause that any man seduced falleth from one falshood to an other till he wholy be drowned in the waues of tempesteous doctrine And when he commeth once at the bottom then God knoweth he setteth light by the matter contemneth it and is often past recouery as it is sayde Peccator cum in profundum venerit contemnit Euen so did this Aërius first through ambitious pride fall to the Arians sect but because he counted it nothing glorious to be a scholar he woulde be a maister and that of a misheuous matter and a matter repugnāt to the sense of all Christes Church which before his preaching generally as after receiued and faithfully vsed prayers and oblation for the deade Of which consent of the vniuersall worlde and the heretikes follye in withstanding the same the sayde Epiphanius sayeth thus I will report his wordes in Latine because they sounde very well though him selfe wrote not in that language Assumpsit ecclesia in toto mundo assensus est factus antequà m esset Aërius qui ab ipso appellantur Aëriani quis autem magis de his nouit hic ne seductus homo qui etiam superest nunc an qui ante nos testes fuerunt c. Thus in english The Church hath receiued this trueth through the wide worlde it was sattled in all mens mindes before Aërius was borne or any of his secte that be nowe called Aërians And who I pray you is most like to knowe the trueth of these thinges this false wretche yet liuinge at this daye or else the faithfull witnesses that were before our time Beholde here you worshipfull maister ▪ you may suerly take greate cause of comforte in his liuely worde mary Sir he might haue bene an Archbishoppe in our dayes for he loued neither fasting nor praying He was fayne to be an heretike for anger because he coulde not be made a bishoppe then who now if he were in this happy age when the light is more plentifully powred vpon the people might haue bene promoted at Caluins decease to the ouerlooking of Geneua But his opinion was