but only cast downe some encroachments and improvements of poperie wee have no more erâ—cted a new faith in respect of the substance and essentials thereof than that zealous reformer Iosia built a new materiall Temple when hee cast out the Idols and Idolatrous worship out of the Lords house There is no other difference betwixt the Reformed and the Romish Church then betwixt a field well weeded and the same field formeâ—ly overgrowne with weeds or betwixt a heape of corne now well winnowed and the same heape lately mixed with chaffe And if it be a vaine and frivolous thing to say it is not the same field or the same corne as vaine and frivolous is it to say the Church is not the same it was or in the same place after it is swept and cleansed of the filth and dust or to say the Churches of Corinth and Galatia after their reformation occasioned by Saint Pauls writing were new Churches and not the same they were before because that in them before the Resurrection was denied Circumcision practisâ—d discipline neglected and Châ—isâ—s Apostles contemned which things now are not found in them or to say Naaman was not still the same person because before hee was a Leper and now is cleansed PA. If our Romane Church were so corrupt whence then had you the truth what you had you received from us PRO. Saint Austine saith that the Iewes were to the Christians Library-keepers of the bookes of the Law and the Prophets and might not the Romanists performe the like office to the Protestants The Iewish Church what time it was unsound preserved the Scriptureâ—Canon and by transcribingâ— and reading the same delivered the whole text therof trâ—ly to others And thus the Roman Church though in many things unsound preserved the bookes of holy Scripture and taught the Apostles Câ—eed with sundry parts of divine truth gathered from the same and by these principles of Christianitie preserved in that Church judicious and godly men might with study and diligence finde out what was the first delivered Christian doctâ—ine in such things as were necessary to salvation And herein was Gods gracious providence sâ—ene that even that Church wherein Luther himselfe received his Christianitie Ordination and power of Ministerie should for the benefit of Gods children preserve the Word and Sacraments and deliver them over to us though somewhat corruptly by their adding more Sacraments than ever Christ ordained and abusing those which we retaine with divers unwarrantable rites and Ceremonies In a word we received from you some truth mingled with errour wee have pared away your corruption as a worme out of an Apple and retained the wholsome and substantiall truth PA. Was there any Chucrh in being save our Roman Catholick in thâ— Ages next before Luther if so show uâ— where it was and with whom it held Communion PRO. When Christ came first into the World the Iewish Church was corrupted both in doctrine and manners this Church had in it Scribes and Pharisees as well as Zachary and Elizabeth Ioseph and Mary Simeon and Anna with others these were all of the same outward Communion with the Priesthood for they resorted to the Temple there they prayed and performed such holy rites as God himselfe enjoyned untill they heard farther of the Gospel by Christs manifestation Now I demand were not Ioseph and Mary and such good people â—ound members of Gods Church although the Scribes and Pharisees bore all the sway in the Church and had the Priesthood the word and Sacraments in their dispensing yet even then God had a Remnant of holy people which made up his Church though others went under the name thereof and exceeded them in number Now with these the sound part kept an outward Communion yet did not partake in all their erronious doctrines but condemned their grosser errours In like sort we were all of one outward Communion of one Church wherin salvation was and yet we shared not in those errours which a faction in the Church like the Pharisees of old maintained For as learned Dr. Field saith The errours which wee condemne at this day whereupon the difference groweth betweene us and the Romish faction were never generally received nor constantly delivered as the doctrines of the Church but doubtfully disputed and proposed as the opinions of some men in the Church not as the resolved determinations of the whole Church For had they beene the undoubted doctrines and determinations of the Church all men would have holden them entirely and constantly as they held the doctriâ—e of the Trinity and other Articles of the Faith And I have already showne from age to age that the errours condemned by us never found generall allowance and constant consent in the dayes of our fathers but that some worthy guides of Gods Church ever opposed them And thus was our Church preserved under the Papacie as wheaâ—e is among tares for wee were formerly mingled together like corne and chaffe in one heape until the time of Reformation came and winnowed our wheat from the chaffe of Poperie So that howsoever divers under the Papacie not brooknig Reformation maintained sundry erronious opinions Yet there were other worthies who living within that Communitie were not equally poysoned with errour but firmely beleeved all fundamentall truth and delivered the maine Articles of Christianitie over unto others For Answer then to the Question Where had our Church her being in the Ages next before Luther we say It was both within the Romane Church and without it For as learned Doctor Chaloner saith Our Church had in those dayes a twofold Subsisâ—encie â—he one Separate from the Church of Rome the other Mixt and conjoyneâ— with it Separate so it was in the Albâ—genses and Waldenses a peâ—ple whoâ— so soone as the Chuâ—ch of Rome had inteâ—preted her selfe touching sundry of those maine poynts of dâ—ffâ—rence betweene us and that a man could no lâ—nger Communicate with her in the publicke worship of God by reâ—son of soâ—e Idolatrous rites and customes which shâ— had establishâ—dâ— arose in France Savâ—y and the places neere adjoyning and professed the same substantiall Negatives and Affirmatives which we doe in a state Sepaâ—atâ— from the Church of Rome having Pastours and Congregations apart to themselves even unto this day From these descended the Wicklefisâ—s in England and the Hussites in Germanie and oâ—hers in other Countries who Maâ—gre the â—urie of fire and Sword maintained the same doctrine as they did The state of the Church mixt and conjoyned with the Church of Rome it selfe consisted of those who making no visible separation from the Roman profession as not perceiving the mysterie of iniquity which wrought in it did yet mislike the grosser errours and desired a Reformation To answer then the quâ—stion directly where was the Prâ—testants Church before Luthers time that is where was any Church in the world that taught that doctrine which the Protestants now teach â—
Timothie was it holds in others also for if the Scripture be so profitable for such and such uâ—eâ— that thereby it perfects a Divine much more an ordinary Christian that which can peâ—fit the teacher is sufficient for the learner PA. Doe you disclaime all Traditions PRO. We acknowledge Traditions concerning Discipline and the Rites and Ceremonies of the Church but not concerning the doctrine or matter of faith Religion You equalize unwritten traditions to holy Scripture receiving them saith your Trent Councell with equall reverence and religious affection as you receive the holy Scriptures themselves we daâ—e not doe so but such traditions as we râ—ceive we hold and esteeme farre inferiour Concerning the Scriptuâ—e Canon the Trent Councell accurseth such as receive not the Bookes of Machabees Ecclesiasticus â—oby Iudith Baruch Wisdome for Canonical Scriptuâ—e Now wee retaine the same Canon which Christ and his Apostles held and received from the Iewes unto whom were committed the Oracles of God being as Saint Augustine speakes The Christians Library-keepers Now the Iewes never received these Bookes which wee terme Apocryphall into their Canon yea Christ himselfe divided the Canon into three severall rankes iâ—to the Law the Prophets and the Psalmes now the Apocryphal come not within this reckoning Indeed as S. Hierome saith The Church reades these Bookes for example of life and instruction of manners but yet it doth not apply them to stablish any Doctrine Of Comunion under both kindes and the number of Sacraments If any shall say The Church was not induced for just causes to communâ—caâ—e the â—ay people under one kinde vâ—z of bread onely and shall say they â—rred in so doing let him bee accursed saith the Trent Councell Now our Chuâ—ch holds That both the parts of the Lords Sacrament ought to bâ—e ministred to all Gods people so thaâ— according to us In the publâ—kâ— celebraâ—ion of â—he Eâ—chaâ—ist Communion in boâ—h kinds ouâ—ht to bee given to all sorts of Câ—riâ—â—ians righâ—ly disposed and prepared and this oâ—â— Tenet is agâ—eâ—able to Christes Institution and Precept who saith exprâ—sly and liâ—erally Drink yee all of this It agrees aâ—so with Saint Pauls precept and with the practice of the holy Apostleâ— and the priâ—ative Church Dionysius Arcopagita who as you say was Saint Pauls Scholler and Disciple relates the practice of the Church in his time on this manner After the Priest hath prayed that hee may hoâ—â—ly distribute and that all they that are to partake of the Sacrament may receiue it worthyly he breakes the Bread into many pieces and divides one Cup among all Ignatius who was Scholler to Saint Iohn the Evangelist saith That one Bread is broken unto all and one Cup destributed unto all PA. Bellarmine saith the words of Ignatius are not as you alleage them There is one Cup distributed unto all but there is one Cup of the whole Church and though the Greeke Copies reade as you doe yet he saith That much credit is not to be given to them PROT. Shall we give more credit to a Translâ—tion then to the Originall If the Well-head and Spring bee corâ—upted how shall the Brooke or Streame runne cleare It may be indeed that divers errors are crept both into the Greeke Latine Copies but for the place alleagâ—d there is no colour of corruption in asmuch as the same that Ignatius spake of the Bread the same are repeated of the Cup according to Christs Institution and howsoever Bellarmine may produce some Latine Copie that translateth the words of Ignatius as Bellarmine sets them downe Vnus Calix totius Ecclesiae yet as D. Featly observes in the Grand Sacriledge of the Romish Church Vitlemius and divers other Latin Copies following the originall verbatim render them thus Vnus Calix omnibus distributus that is One Cup distributed unto all and not as Bellarmine and Baronius ad Ann. 109 sect 25. would have it as if Ignatius had said that one Cup was distributed not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 omnibus but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 pro omnibus not to all but for all that is for the behoofe and benefit of all Howsoever they wrest it Ignatius tels us of one Cup and this not the Priests Cup but the Churches Cup and this Cup was distributed But now adaies in the Masse there is no distribution of the Cup. PA. Christ spake these words Drinke yee all of this only to the Apostles as they were Priests and not to the Laitie PRO. By this meanes you might take away the Bread as well as the Cup from the Lay-people for when Christ administred the Sacrament none were present for ought we know but onely the Apostles Besides the Apostles were not yet fully ordained Priests though they had beene once sent to Preach Christ after his Resurrection breathed on them the holy Ghost and fully endued them with Priestly power Iohn 20.22 Againe the Apostles at this Supper were Communicants not Ministers of the Sacrament Christ was then the onely Minister in that Action Now Christ delivered them the Cup as well as the Bread saying to the same persons at the same time and in the same respect Drinke yee all of this to whom hee had said before Take and Eate giving both alike in charge so that you must either barre the people from both or admit them to both now if neither precept of eating or drinking belong to the Laitie the Laitie are not at all bound to receive the Sacrament PA. Although it be said of Drinking the Cup Doe this in remembrance of me Yet the Words Doe this are spoken Absolutely of the Bread and but Conditionally of the Cup namely as often as yee shall drinke it 1 Cor. 11.25 So that these Words Doe this in remembrance of me inferre not any Commandement of receiving in both kindes PRO. According to your Tenet our Saviour saith not Doe this as often as you Lay men communicate but whensoever you receive the Cup and drinke then doe it in remembrance of me as much as to say as often as you Lay people drinke which needeth never be done by you according to Romish Divinitie Doe this nothing in remembrance of mee Besides as there is a Quotiescunque as often set before the Cup As oft as you drinke so there is a Quotiescunque set before the Bread As often as you shall eate this Bread vers 26. so that quotiâ—scunque biberitis as often as you Drinke cannot make the Precept Conditionall in respect of the Cup more than of the Bread it being alike referred to the Bread and to the Cup. PA. We wrong not the Laitie ministring unto them under one kinde onely they receiving the same benefit by one that they should doe by both Christs body and bloud being whole in each so that the people receive the bloud together with the Host by a Concomitancy PRO. In vaine have you devised Concomitance to
for us Now though Christs Body is not according to his materiall substance wholly and intirely under the outward elements yet the Bread may bee truly termed Christs Body because of a Relative and Sacramentall union and donation of the thing signified together with the Signes worthily received PA. What reason have you to interpret these words figuratively this is my body that is this bread is a signe of my body and not plainely and literally as they sound PRO. Figurative speeches are oftentimes plaine speeches now there be no other Figures or Tropes in the Lords Supper but such as are and alwaies were usuall in Sacraments and familiarly knowne to the Church Now Sacraments must bee expounded Sacramentally and accordingly the words alledged must not bee taken literally but figuratively Christ taking bread and breaking bread said of the same This is my body now this cannot bee properly taken therefore for the right expounding of these words we are necessarily to have recourse to a figurative interpretation and the reason hereof is that common Maxime Disparatum de disparato non propriè praedicatur that is nothing can bee properly and literally affirmed joyntly of another thing which is of a different nature By this rule bread and Christs body cannot bee properly affirmed one of another bread being of a different nature from flesh can no more possibly be called the flâ—sh or body of Christ literally than lead can be called wood and this makes us interpret the words figuratively and wee have in Scripture most manifest places which proove these woâ—ds This is my body to be figuratively taken and understood because in Scripture whensoever the signe as the Bread being called Christ's body hath the name appellation of the thing signified the speech is alwayes tropicall and figurative And this agreâ—th with S. Austiâ—s Rule Sacraments bee signes which often doe take the names of those things which they doe signifie and represent therefore doe they carry the names of the things themselves thus is the signe of the Passeover the Lambe called the Passeover Math. 26.17 Exod. 12.11 27. the Rocke the signe of Christ in his passion is called Christ and the Rocke was Christ 1. Cor. 10 4. Circmmcision the signe of the Covenant called the Covenant and Bapâ—isme the signe of Christs buriall called Christs buriall for so saith S. Augustine that as Baptisme is called Christs buriall so is the Sacrament of the Body of Christ callâ—d his Body Now this shew or semblance of words concludes not that Christ or the Lambe were really the Rocke the Passeover but that these things are meant figuratively it being usuall in Scripture specially in such Sacramentally speeches as this is we are now about to give the name of the thing to that which it betokeneth and so to call Circumcision the Covenant because it is a signe thâ—t betokneth the Covenant and so of the rest Besides the other part of the Sâ—crament to wit This Cup is the New Testament in my blood Luke 22.20 is figurativâ— and not to be literally taken for you your selves sâ—y that Calix or the Cup is there taken for that which is iâ— the cup so that your sâ—lves admit a trope in the institution of this Sacrament PAP If these figurative speâ—ches were true yet I cannot see what argument you can draw from hence or how you can hence prove any thing against our Tenet saith our â—nglish Baron for it is a rule in Divinitie that Theologia Symbolica non est aâ—gumentativa that figurative speeches affoord no certaine proofe in matters of Faith PRO. The zeâ—lous Reverend and learned L. Bishop of Durâ—sme Doctor Morton tells your Baron and his Suggester that upon the no-pâ—oper sense of the words This is my body it must follow that there is no Transubstantiation in your Romish Masse no Corporall presence no râ—all Sacrifice no proper eating no lawfull divine adoration therof and as for the rule that Symbolicall arguments mâ—ke no necessary Conclusions the said learned and reveâ—end Father saith That this makes not against us touching the fiâ—urative woâ—ds of Christ This is my body the position maketh onely against them who extract either a liteâ—all sense out of a parabolicall and figurative speech as Origen did when having râ—ad that scriptureâ— Thâ—re bee some that castrate thâ—msâ—lves for the kingdome of God whâ—ch was but a pâ—rabolicall speech hee did really and thereforâ— fâ—â—lishly castrate himselfe or else when men tâ—râ—e the words of Scripture properly and literally spoken intâ—â— figurative meaningâ— as when Pope Innoâ—ent thâ— third tâ— pâ—oove that his Papall authoritie was above thâ— Impâ—riall aâ—lâ—dged that Scripture Gen. 1. God made two great lights the Sun and the Moone as if the Imperiall like the Moone had borrowed its authoritie from the Papall as from the Sun or as Pope Boniface 8 from those words Luk. 22. Behold here are two swords argued that both the temporall and spirituall sword are in the Pope as he is Vicar of Christ. Now such kinde of Symbolicall reasoning is indeed of no force â—ut by that position was it never forbid whensoever in Scripture the name of the thing signified is attributed to the symbol or signe that then the Symbolicall and Sacramental speech should be judged tropicall But this kind of exposition was alwayes approved of Christ and by his Church so here Christ taking bread and breaking bread which was the symbol and signe of Christs body and saying of the same Bread This is my body the sense cannot possibly bee literall but alâ—ogether figuâ—ative as hath bin shewne by divers â—xamples in Scripture to wit the signe of the passing over called the Passeover the Rock but a signe of Christ called Christ In each onâ— of these the Symbols being a Signe and Figuâ—e the speech must infallibly bee Figurative And therefore Bread being a Figure of Christs Body is called Christs body Figuratively And thus farre our learned Bishop of Duresme Of Images and Prayer to Saints The Church of Rome holds that Images are to bee had and retained and that due honour worship and veneration is to bee given to them The Church of England holds that the Romish doctrine of Adoration of Images and Reliques and also of Invocation of Saints is grounded upon no warraâ—tie of Scripture but rather repâ—gnant to the word of God And so indeed we finde that the Lord in his Morall law hath condemned in gâ—nerall all Imaâ—eâ— and Idols devised by man for worshâ—p and adoration And this Precept being a part of his Morall law it binds us in the state of the new Testament as it did the Israelites of old for in all the Apostles doctrine wee doe not finde that ever this prâ—câ—pt was abâ—ogated so that it bindes Israelites Christians and all PA. If all worship of Images be forbidden Exod. 20. ver 4 5. then all making of them is forbidden for the same precept which saith thou shalt not bow downe
God would receive our prayers Thus he in his mystagogicall Catechismes Answer The learned doe thinke that Cyril of Hierusalem was not Author thereof but one Iohn Bishop of Hierusalem who lived about the yeare 767 a great advocate of Images and indeed it may seeme so by some idle stuffe we find in them as namely where it is said That the wood of the Crosse did increase and multiply in such sort that the earth was full thereof But be it Cyrils of Hierusalem it makes not for the Romists All he saith is this in effect he supposeth that those holy ones with God doe continually pray unto God which prayers he desires God would mercifully heare and grant unto them for the good of his servants here on earth Lastly he sayth mentionem facimus and so did the ancients in their Commemorations mention the Godly Saints deceased and yet without any direct invoking of them And so Saint Austin saith That the Martyrs were named at the Communion Table but yet not invocated by the Priest Saint Austin flatly opposeth invocantur to nominantur nominantur sed non invocantur so that they might be nominated and mentioned as Cyril speakes and yet not at all invocated Objection Saint Hilary saith that by reason of our infirmitie we stand in need of the intercession of Angels and the like he hath upon the 124 Psalme Answer Hilary speakes onely of Angelicall intercession not a word touching invocation or intercession of Saints And if any intercession be intended it is that in generall for the whole Church In the other place upon the 124 Psalme Hilary speaks neither of Saints praying for us nor of praying to them but sayth That the Church hath no small ayde in the Apostles Prophets and Patriarkes or rather in the Angels which hedge and compasse the Church round about with a certaine guard the ayde therefore he meaneth is the example and doctrine of the Saints departed and the ministerie of the Angels Objection The Emperour Theodosius went in Procession with his Clergy and Laity to the Oratories and Chappels and lying prostrate before the Shrines and Monuments of the Apostles and Martyrs he required ayde to himselfe by the faithfull intercession of the Saints Answer The Emperour did not invocate any Saint or Saints at all onely upon that exigent of the rebellion of Eugenius and his complices he repayres to the Shrines and Chappels of the Apostles Martyrs and other holy Saints there he made his prayers unto God in Christ not unto them desiring God to ayde him against his enemies and the rather upon the prayers and intercession of the Saints on his behalfe now invocation followes not presently upon intercession Reply Sozomen telleth us that the Emperour before he joyned battaile he earnestly intreated to be assisted by Saint Iohn Baptist. Rejoynder The learned Bishop Bishop Mountague answereth that the credit of this story may â—e questioned for Socrates and Thâ—odoret elder than Sozomen have it not and Sozomen himselfe hath no greater warrant for iâ— then heaâ—e say 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the report is but who the Author was whaâ— credit it was of is not related But supposing the truth of the story Ruffinus hath the very forme of the Prayer which the Emperour made and there is no mention therein of invocating either Saint or Angâ—l Socrates saith that the Emperor implored Gods assistance and had his desire Theodoret saith that the Eâ—perour prayed to God so that the Emperour had repayre unto God alone without any mediation at all I have consulted with the Originall and there indeed I find that the Emperour being in Saint Iohn Baptist's Church which Theodosius himsâ—lfe had built He called to have Saint Iohn Baptist's assistance in the battaile he did not directly call upon S. Iohn Baptist but he called upon God that he would appoint the Baptist for to aâ—d him But be it that he called upon the Baptist indeed yet this was done in the second place after he had first immediatly called upon God himsâ—lfe Objection Athanasius in his Sermon upon the Annunciation of blessâ—d Virgin sayth to the Virgin Mary Incline thine cares to our prayers and forget not thy people Answer Indeed this speakes home but it is not the true Athanâ—sius but some counterfeits bearing his name and this is confessed by the two Arch pillars of Poperie Bellarmine and Baronius for howsoever Bellarmine to make up his number produce Athanâ—sius for proofe of Saintly invocation yet the same Bâ—llarmine when he is out of the heat of his controversies and is not tied to maintaine â—he invocation of Saints but treateth of other matters then in his Catalogue of Ecclesiasticall wriâ—ers he is of another judgement and saith that this Sermon of Athanasius of the Annunciation of the blessed Virgin seemeth not to be Athanasiusses but some later writeâ—s who lived afâ—er the sixâ—h generall Councel Baronius also is of the same judgement and indeed he that shall consider and wâ—iâ—h what the true Athanasius writes to wit That God onely is to be worshipped that the creature is not to fall downe and worship or supplicate the creature nor to make the Saints being but creatures no creators speciall helpers and opitulators he I say that shall duely weigh these things will easily conceive when he reads this Sermon of the Annunciation that either Athanasius was not constant to his own doctrine which is not to bee imagined or that this Homily alleadged is none of the true Athanasiusses it is so farre different from his other doctrine Objection Bellarmine for proofe of Saintly invocation alleadgeth a place out of Eusebius the testimonie speaketh thus as there it standeth reported out of the thirteenth Booke and seaventh Chapter of his Evangelicall Preparation This we daily doe we honour those heavenly Souldiers as Gods friends we approach unto their Monuments and pray unto them as unto Holy men by whose intercession we professe our selves to be much holpâ—n Answer Eusebius speakes not of particular invocation for particular intercession but of generall mediation of the Saints in heaveÌ„ who pray for Saints on earth in general according to the nature of Communion of Saints without any intercession used to theÌ„ or invocation of them by that other moity of the Church Militant oâ— earth Secondly Eusebiuâ— doth not enlarge his speech to all the Saints departed but unto Martyrs onely whom he calleâ—h Heavenly Souldiers Now the case of Martyrs and other Saints is not equall for in the opinion of the Ancients that of Martyrs was faâ—re above all other depaâ—ted with God as enjoying moâ—e priviledge from God with Christ in glory by some specially enlarged dispensation than they the other holy Saints did as Saint Augustine teacheth 3. Thirdly the place alleadged is taken out of a corrupt translation made by Trapezuntius and afterwards followed by Dadroeus a Doctour of Paris
saw the evill that came upon the place Besides these learned Trium virs there lived in this age Theodoret bishop of Cyrus a towne in Syria Cyrill bishop of Alexandria Leo the great and Gelasius bishops of Rome Vincentius Lirinensis a great impugner of Heresies as also Sedulius of Scotland whose Collections are extant upon Saint Pauls Epistlâ—s and his testimonies frequently cited by the learned L. Primate Doctour Vsher in his Trâ—atise of the ancient Irish Religion Oâ— the Scâ—iptures sufficiencie Saint Augustine saith In those things which are layd downe plainely in the Scriptures all those things are found which appertaine to faith and direction of life Bellarmine would shift off this place by saying That Austine meant that in Scripture are contayned all such points as are simply necessary for all to wit the Creed and the Commandements but beside these other things necessary for Bishops and Pastors were delivered by tradition but this stands not with Austines drift for in the Treatise alleadged de Doctrinâ— Christianâ hee purposely instructeth not the people but Christian Doctors and Teachers so that where he saith In the Scriptures are plainely set downe all things which containe Faith Hope and Charity he meaneth as elsewhere hee expresseth himselfe all things which are necessarily to bee believed or done not onely of the Lay people but even of Ecclesiastickes In like sort the same father saith Those things which seemed sufficient to the salvation of believers were chosen to bee written Vincentius Lirinensis saith that the Canon or Rule of Scripture is perfect abundantly sufficent in it selfe for all things yea more than sufficient neither is this a false supposall as a Iesuit pretends it to be but a grounded truth and the Authors doctrine Liâ—inensis indeed maketh first one generall sufficient Rule for all things the sacred Scriptures Secondly another usefull in some cases onely yet never to be used in those cases without Scriptures which is the Tradition of the Vniversall Church and generall consent of Fathers The first was used by the ancient Church from the worth that is in it selfe the other is used to avoyd the jarring interpretations of pervâ—rse Heretikeâ— that many times abuse the sacred Rule Standard of the Scripture Now we admit the Churches Interpretation as ministeriall to holy Scripture so it be conformable thereunto And wee say with the learned Rejoynder to the Iesuit Malounes Reply Bring us now one Scripture expounded according to Lirinensis his Rule by the Vniversall consent of the Primitive Church to prove Prayer to Saints Image worship in your sense and we will receive it Saint Cyril saith that All things which Christ did are not written but so much as holy writers judged sufficient both for good manners and Godly faith And in another place he saith The holy Scripture is sufficient to make them which are brought uâ— in it wise and most approved and furnished with most sufficient understanding Saint Hierome reasoneth Negatively from the Scriptures saying As we deny not those things that are written so we refuse those things that are not written That God was borne of a Virgin we believe because we reade it That Mary did marry after shee was delivered we beleeve not because we reade it not Saint Chrysostome saith that All those things that are in holy writ are right and cleere that Whatsoever is necessarie is manifest therein yea he calleth the Scripture The most exact Balance Square and Rule of Divine veritie This was the Fathers Rule of Faith of old and the same a perfect one but the Papists now adayes make it but a part of a Rule halfe a Rule and piece it with Tradition Of the Scripture Canon Saint Hierome who was well skilled in the tongues travailed much and saw the choycest Monuments of Antiquitie as also the best Libraries that the Easterne Parts could afford and was therefore likely to meete with the best Canon nameth all the Bookes which we admit and afterwards addeth Whatsoever is besides these is to be put amongst the Apocrypha and that therfore the Booke of Wisedome of Iesus the Sonne of Syrach of Iudith Tobias and Pastor are not in the Canon The same Hierome having mentioned the Booke of Wisedome and Ecclesiasticus and delivered his opinion that it is untruly called the Wisedome of Salomon and attributed to him then addeth That as the Church readeth Iudith Tobias and the Maccabees but receiveth them not â—or Canonicall Scriptures so these two Bookes â—amely the Wisedome of Salâ—mon and Iesus the Sonne of Syrach doth the Church reade for the edification of the pâ—ople not to confirme the authority of any doctrine in the Church Objection The Carthaginian Councel received those Books which you account Apocryphall Answer They received them in Canonem Morum not in Canonem Fidei It is true indâ—ed that Saint Austine and the African Bishops of his time and some other in that Age finding these Bookes which Hierome and others rejâ—ct as Apocryphall to be joyned with the other and together read with them in the Church seeme to account them to be Canonicall but they received them onely into the Ecclesiasticke Canon serving for Example of life and instruction of manners and not into any part of the Rule of Faith or Divine Canon as Saint Austine speaking of the Bookes of the Maccabees distinguisheth saying This reckoning is not found in the Canonicall Scriptures but in other Bookes as in the Maccabees plainely distinguishing betweene the Canonicall Scriptures and the Bookes of the Maccabees Wherein saith he There may be something found worthy to be joyned with the number of those miracles yet hereof will we have no care for that we intend the miracles Divini Canonis which are received in the Divine Canon Of the booke of Iudith he tels us The Iewes never received it into the Canon of Scriptures and withall there he professeth That the Canon of the â—ewes was most Authenticall Touching the bookes of Wisedome and Ecclesiasticus he tels us that They were called Salomons onely for some likâ—nâ—sse of Stile but the Learned doubt whether they bâ—e his Lastly the Councel of Carthage whereat Saint Austine was present Prescribing that no bookes should be read in the Church as Canonicall but such as indeed are Canonicall leaveth out the booke of Maccabees as it appeareth by the Greeke Edition though they have shuffled them into the Latine which argueth suspicion of a forged Canon Now to this ancient evidence of Hierome and Austine the Papists make but a poore Reply Canus saith that Hierome is no rule of Faith and that the matter was not then sufficiently sifièd Bellarmine saith I admit that Hierome was of that opinion because as yet a Generall Councel had decreed nothing touching those bookes and Saint Austin might likewise doubt thereof so that by Bellarmines confession Hierome
saith Although they had some ill opinions yet they did not so much stirre up the hatred of the Pope and great Princes against them as their freedome in speech which they used in blaming and reproving the vices dissolute manners life and actions of Princes Ecclesiasticall persons and the Pope himselfe this was the chiefe thing which drew the hatred of all upon them this caused many wicked opinions to be devised and fathered on them from which they were very free and guiltlesse PAP You say divers opinions were fained of them what then were their owne Tenets PROT. What they taught in particular may be gathered by that which the Hussites in Bohemia their â—chollers held for as Aâ—neas Sylvius afterwards Pope recordeth the Hussites embraced the opinions of the Waldenses now their opinions are thus set downe by Anâ—as Sylvius one of their backe friends They held other Bishops to be equall with the Bishop of Rome That prayers for the dead and Purgatory were devised by the Priests for their owne gaine That the Images of God and Saints were to be defaced That Confirmation and extreame unction were no Sacraments That it is in vaine to pray to the Saints in heaven since they cannot helpe us That Auricular confession was a trifling thing That it was not meritorious to keepe the set fasts of the Church and that such a set number of Canonicall houres in praying were vaine That Oyle and Chrisme was not to be used in Baptisme These with divers other were the Tenets of the Waldenses PAP Suppose the Waldenses had fully agreed with you in matter of Religionâ— yet Waldo was a Lay-man and so wanted calling and could not confere it on others PROT. Why might not a Lay-man by private exhortation perswade others to the Christian faith We finde in the Church-story that a Tyrian Philosopher arriving in India was slaine by the Barbarians with all his company except two children which were gone out of the ship and were learning their lessons under a tree these children were brought up by the King and advanced by him the one to be his Steward and the other called Frumentius became his Secretary Afterward the King dying and leaving his sonne in in his non-age Frumentius aâ—â—isted the Queene in the government of the Kingdome whiles Frumentius was in authority he enquired among the Roman Merchants for Christians he shewed the Christians all favour and procured them assemblies for prayer and the service of God When the King came to age they delivered him the Kingdome and Frumentius went to Alexandria to Athanasius and told him what was done desiring him to send some worthy Bishop to those multitudes of Christians Athanasius thinking Frumentius a fit person ordained him Bishop and sent him into India to convert more soules Hereby we see that this Lay-secretary was the first meanes of converting the Barbarians and why might not Waldus of France doe the like Besides though Waldus himselfe were a Lay-man yet the Waldenses might have Bishops and Pastors Mathew Paris saith the Albingenses were so powerfull in the parts of Bulgaria Croatia and Dalmatia that they also drew Bishops besides many others of those regions to their parties yea the Popes Legat that was sent in commission against the Albigenses complaines that they had a Bishop of their owne called Bartholmew who consâ—crated Churches and ordained Bishops and Ministers PAP Waldus and his followers were but simple and unlearned men Valdenses fuerunt homines Idiotae prorsus ignorantes Castreul tit miraculum PROT. What then God hath chosen the foolish and weake things of the World to confound the wise 1 Cor. 1.27 And we reade in the Church history of a Philosopher that could not bee overcome by any Arguments but troubled the councell of Nice and yet was converted by a simple Bishop Ruffin eccles Hist. li. 1. cap. 3. Againe it is untrue that Waldus was utterly unlearned for Reiner the Inquisitour saith that Waldus being tollerably learned taught those that resorted to him the Text of the New Testament in their mother tongue and the same Reiner who was often present at their examinations witnesseth that they had above forty schooles and divers Churches all within one diocesse so that they had the ordinary meanes of knowledge Yea they were of that abilitie that they had divers conferences and disputations with the Romists and one famous one at Mount-royall in France where they encountered Saint Dominick and others and maintained these positions that the Church of Rome was not the holy Church nor spouse of Christ but Babylon the mother of abhomination that the Masse was not ordained by Christ nor his Apostles but was an Invention of men This disputation held for divers dayes and the Waldenses had the better had not Saint Dominicks sword proved sharper than his sillogisme cutting off more men than arguments for now as Platina saith the matter was not carried by force of argument but by force of armes PAP Though you shew us the Waldensians agreement with you their calling succession and ordination yet you are never a whit the neerer because their number might bee few and them few scattered and dispersed so that they had not any visible congregations PROT. Concerning the Waldenses and the visibility of their assemblies both in France and elsewhere the matter is cleere even by your owne witnesse Rainerius saith as is already alleadged that of all Sects which either are or have beene none hath beene moâ—â— pernicious to the Church he meaneth the Church of Rome than that of the Leonists First for the long continuance thereof for some say it hath continued from the time of Silvester who was Bishop of Rome about the yeare of Christ three hundred and sixteene others say from the time of the Apostles Secondly for the generality for there is almost no Country into which this Sect hath not entred the French historian saith that the Waldenses about the yeare 1100 and in the succeeding times spread abroad their doctrine little differing from that which at this day the Protestants embrace not onely through all France but almost through all the Countries of Europe also For the French Spanish English Scots Italians Germans Bohemians Saxons Polonians and Lituanians and other Nations have obstinately defended it to this day Mathew Paris the Monke of Saint Albans hath already told us that they were growne so powerfull in Bulgaria Croatia and Dalmatia that among many others they drew some Bishops to their partie And there were such multitudes of them apprehended in France that the Archbishops of Aix Arles and Narbonne assembled at Avignion anno Dom. 1228 about the difficulties of the executions of those which the Dominican Fryers had accused said plainely there were so many apprehended that it was not possible to defray the charge of their feeding nor to finde enough lime and stone to build prisons for them when they came to wage warre with their enemies they
saying of Ernestus Arch-bishop of Magdeburg lying on his death-bed some five yeares befoâ—e Luther shewed himselfe It is witnessed by Clement Schaâ— Chaplaine to the said Arch-bishop and one who was present at his death that a Frier Minor used this speech to the Archbishop Take a good heart most worthy Prince wee communicate to your excellencie all the good workes not onely of our selves but our whole order of Frier Minors and therefore doubt not but you receiving them shall appeare before the tribunall Seate of God righteous and blessed Whereunto the Arch-bishop replyed By no meanes will I trust upon my owne workes or yours but the workes of Christ Iesus alone shall suffice upon them will I repose my selfe THE SIXTEENTH CENTVRIE From the yeare of Grace 1500. to 1600. Of Martin Luther PAPIST WHat say you of this sixteenth Age PROTESTANT We are now by Gods assistance come to the period of time which was agreed upon in the beginning of our conference to wit to the dayes of Martin Luther for about the yeare of Grace 1517 hee beganne to teach and Preach against Indulgences And withall I have produced a Catalogue of our professours unto this present sixteenth Centurie PA. Stay your selfe you must saith Master Brerely show us your professours during the twentie yeares next before Luther PRO. It is done already for besides our English Martyrs we have produced Trithemius the Abbot and Savonarola both which lived within the time mentioned and held with us the Article of free Iustification and Savonarola howsoever the matter be otherwise coloured was burnt for Religion in the yeare 1498. Besides there have beene in all Ages and in the time mentioned such as held the substantiall Articles of our Religion both in the Roman and Greeke Church and by name the Grecians in common with us have openly denyed the Popes Supremacie Purgatorie private Masses Sacrifices for the dead and defended the lawfulnesse of Priests marriage Likewise in this Westerne part of the world the Schollers of Wickliffe called Lollards in England the Taboâ—ites in Bohemia and Waldenses in France maintained the same doctrine in substance with our moderne Protestants as appeareth by a Confession of the Waldensian Faith set forth about the yeare of Grace 1508 which was within the time prefixed Neither did these whom we have produced dissemble their Religion but made open profession thereof by their Writings Confessions and Martyrdomes as also their just Apologies are extant to cleere them from the Adversaries imputation PA. I thought Luther had beene the first founder of your Religion for there bee some of your men who call him the first Apostle of the reformed doctrine PRO. Luther broached not a new Religion he onely drained and refined it from the Lees and dregs of superstition he did not forme or found a new Church which was not in being but onely reformed and purged that which he found from the soilâ— of errours and disorders When Hilkiah the Priest in Iosiah's time found out the booke of God he was thereby a meanes to bring to light what the wicked proceedings of Manasses Amon and others had for a season smothered and so did Luther he was the instrument whom God used for the farther enlightning his Church and yet hereupon it no more followeth that he was the first that preached our Religion than upon the former that Hiâ—kiah first preached the Law The Protestants Church by Luthers meanes began no otherwise in Germanie than health begins to be in a body that was formerly sicke and overcharged and now recovered So that in respect of doctrine necessary to salvation the Church in her Firme members as Saint Austine speakes was the same before Luther and afterwards and it began to be by his meanes onely according to a greaâ—er measure of knowledge and freedome from such corruptions as formerly like ill humours oppressed it and oveâ—charged it The Proâ—estants Church then is the same with all good and sound Christians that lived before them and succeedeth the sound members of the visible Chuâ—ch that kept the life of true Religion in the substantiall matters of Faith and Godlinesse though otherwise those times were daâ—kened with a thicke mist of errours Now whereas some call Luther the first Apostle of the reformed doctrine they did not therâ—by intend that he was the fiâ—st that ever preached the dâ—ctrine of the râ—formed Churches for they could not be ignorant that after Christ and his Apostles and the Fathers of the first five Ages Bertram and Aâ—lfricke and Berenger Peter Bruis and Henry of Tholouse Dulcinus and Anâ—ldus and Lollardus Wickliffe Husse Hierome of Pragâ—e and others stood for the same truth which we professe but their meaning was that Luther was the first who in their Age and memorie publickly and succesfully set on foot a generall reformation of the Church in these Westerne parts And thus in a tollerable sense Luther may bee called the first Apostle of the Reformation though not simply the first that preached the Protestants doctrine Americus Vesputius is reported to have discovered the West Indies or America and withall beares the name thereof and yet Christopher Columbus discovered it before him Bishop Iewell saith that in Luthers dayes in the midst of the darknesse of that Age there first began to shine some glimmeâ—ing beame of truth his meaning is not that the truth was then first revealed but that by Luthers mâ—anes it was manifested in a fuller measure and degree of lâ—ght and knowledge than it was in the fâ—rmer and daâ—ker times of Poperie yea he giveth pâ—rticular instance of true professours that were before Luther namely Saint Hilarie Gregory Bernard Pauperes de Lugduno the â—ishops of Greece and Asia as also Valla Marsilius Petrarch Savonarola and others PA. Did Luther himselfe acknowledge he had any predecessors or fore-runners PRO. I answer with my worthy and learned friend Doctor Featly that Luther acknowledged the Waldenses termâ—d fratres Pigardi as appeares by his Preface before the Waldension Confession I found saith hee in these men a miracle almost unheard of in the Popish Church to wit that these men leaving the doctrines of men to the utmost of their endeavour meditated in the Law of God day and night and were very ready and skilfull in the Scriptures whereas in the Papacie the greatest Clerkes uâ—terly neglected the Scriptures I could not but congratulate both them and us that wee were together brought into one sheepfold Of Iohn Husse and Hiâ—rome of Prague he saith They burned Iohn Husse and Hierome both Catholike men they being themselves Heretikes and Apostates and in his third Preface hee saith hee hath heard from men of credit that Maximilian the Emperour was wont to say of Iohn Husse Alas alas they did that good man wrong And Erasmus Roterodam in the first bookes which hee printed lying yet by me writeth That Husse indeed was condemned and burned but not convicted PA. To
â—he private Masses and some also must be attributed to the very change of time it selfe as publicke prayers in an unknowne tongue in Italy France and Spaine for there a long time the Latine was commonly understood of all but when afterwards by the invasion of those barbarous nations the Goths and Vandals their speeches degenerated into those vulgar tongues that are now used there then the language not of the Service but of the people was altered so that upon the fall of the Empire learning began to decay and the publicke Service no longer to be understood by reason of the change of the vulgar tongues Lastly wee are able to show as appeares by the eighth Centurie of this treatise when and by whom corruption of doctrine hath beene brought in and how opposition hath beene made from time to time in case of the adversaries violent intrusion for instance sake for the space of sixe hundred yeares and more next after Christ the Catholicke doctrine of the Church of Rome was this that Images were not to be adored and this is witnessed by Gregorie the Great who allowed no use of Images but onely Historical for so he saith They are not set up to be worshipped but onely to instruct the people that be ignorant yea he speakes positively that The worshipping of Images is by all meanes to bee avoided Now this doctrine maintained by Gregorie the first was changed by Gregorie the second and third Adrian the first and second so that here we have taken them 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 with the manner to wit with doctrine novel and differing from their Ancestors and therefore need no farther examination But that the Reader may trace them along we find that this Innovation was resisted by three hundred thirtie eight Bishops at Constantinople in the yeare 754 and though afterwards it got strength at Nice was defended by Rome and at last got to bee a part of the Roman Faith yet was the same disliked denied opposed and resisted by all the good men that lived in that and aftertimes as Charles the Great the councel of Franckford Lewis his sonne the Synod of Paris Alcuinus and the Church of England PA. Will you charge our Religion with novelty can that bee called new which is of so long continuance PRO. Divers points of your Religion are confessed novelties your owne men yeeld that for Above a thousand yeares after Christ the Popes judgement was not esteemed infallible nor his authority above that of a Generall Councell the contrary being decreed in the late Councels of Constance and Basil that Not any one ancient Writer reckons precisely seven Sacraments the first Author that mentioneth that number being Peter Lombard and the first Councell that of Florence that in former ages for thirteene hundred yeares The holy Cup was administred to the Laity that divine service was celebrated for many ages in a knowne and vulgar language understood by the people that Transubstantiation was neither named nor made an Article of faith before the Councell of Lateran which was above twelve hundred yeares after Christ besides many more confessions of this kind which might bee produced Now that a thing may be novell though of long duration may appeare by this our Saviour when he would declare Pharisaicall Traditions to be Novelties did not respect their long continuance in the corrupt estate of the Church but saith Math. 19.8 Ab initio non fuit sic that they were not from the beginning delivered by God or practised by the Church so that if the duration and antiquity of your opinions be but humane that is not Apostolicall neither from Apostolicall grounds they may according to Tertullian be esteemed new and novelties for a point is new in Religion that did not proceed from God and his blessed spirit either interminâ—s or by deduction from his word that is the Ancient of dayes whatsoever pretences of duration and continuance may be supposed It remaineth then that that is new in Religion which is not most ancient so that if you cannot derive your Religion further then from some of the Fathers the tradition whereupon it is builded is then but humane and so a new thing even Noveltie it selfe And therefore Tertullian telleth us That is most true which is most ancient that most ancient which was from the beginning that from the beginning which was from the Apostles as if there were no truth in faith that was not from the beginning If Christ was alwayes and before all truth is a thing equally ancient and from all eternitie saith the same Father and therefore whatsoever savorâ—th against the truth this saith he is Heresie thoâ—gh it be of long continuance for there is no prescription of time that will hold plea against the Ancient of dayes and his truth I know that Pamelius in his notes upon Tertullian would ward off these testimonies by saying that Tertullian spoke thus When hee began to fall into the fancie of Montanus but be it so yet hee delivered some truths after hee lapsed into Montanisme besides Bellarmine for proofe of Monasticall vowes and veiling of Nunnes alleadgeth divers places out of the same treatise of Tertullians de Virginibus velandis of veiling of virgins and then belike Tertullian was no Montanist when Bellarmine for his advantage alleadged him PA. Our Religion Mr. Brerely is that good seed which Christ the good husbandman first sowed in his field Math. 13.24 yours is like the Tares which the enemy afterwards came and sowed among the wheate PRO. A great part of your Religion specially that which is controverted betwixt you and us and namely your Trent additionals and Traditionals was not sowne by the good husbandmen Christ and his Apostles but by the envious man by the craft of the man of sinne and his complices the sinnes of Christian men so requiring for as it is already observed erroneous doctrine it may be antiqua ancient but it cannot be prima that one truth and faith Ephes. 4.5 Which was once delivered to the Saints as S. Inde speakes and therefore is Christ the Husbandman first presented in the Parable as Seminans sowing good seed in his field before the Enemy is produced Reseminans resowing the same Acres with unprofitable graine Besides Religion is one thing and Reformation another the one presupposeth the other our reformation is of a later date our Religion is the old Religion coevall with the Primitive and Apostolike howsoever you taxe us with noveltie But the Disciple is not above his Master the Iewes could say to our Saviour What new doctrine is this and the Grecians to S. Paul May we not know what this new doctrine whereof thou speakest is but wee say in our just defence it is not wee that affâ—ct noveltie but it is you that counterfeit the face of Antiquity as the Gibeonites dealt with Ioshua deceiving him