seeing the Supper was to be handled against theÌ„ in the chamber of the Prior of Poissy in the preâ—â—ce of the Queen of the Prinoes of bloud of the Lords of the Councell they often requested to leaue that point vndecided hand to enter into some other which should be more euident against the Catholikes as of Images and other things And contrariwise the Ministers to auoyd now the great 〈◊〉 which be in their interpretation of the Creed would set forth the point of the Supper The Doctors beseech as they haue 〈◊〉 that there be no confusion in their doing and 〈◊〉 their religioâ—e examined by order and that it be noâ— thought that the Doctors doo refuse â—o enter into the Conference of the Masse and the Supper as they haue alwaies determined and neuer said vnder correction of all persons that they would not conferre theerof for my Ladies briefe instruction they are readie to dispute thereof by word of mouth and plainly to shewe by the expresse word of God that Iesus Christ instituted and said Masse and his Apostles also They do also offer that whatsoeuer shall be said by word of mouth vpon this matter be put in writing the next day after to be placed in it order as the instruction of my Lady doth require And do referre them for the day to the said Ladies opportunitie The Ministers do answere that all these answeres are superfluous and vnprofitable for as much as all such Conferences are nothing but debates and alâ—rications which doâ— offend and scandalize more then they edifie The Resolution of the Doctors THe Doctors ensuing the order alreadie begun and their charge which is to conferre with the Ministers and afterwards to giue a resolution for the instruction of my Lady of Buillon vpon the two points proposed yesterday to wit whether the Apostles were authors of the Creed And why we ought to beleeue it They say that to know whether the Apostles did make and erect the Creed ought no more to be esteemed a thing indifferent then to know whether the Apostles be authors of their owne writings For much more is the authoritie of them when a man is assured that they are certainly proceeded from the Apostles And contrariwise it should be far lesse if men did doubt therof or esteem it a thing indifferent Moreouer they say that it is no sufficient reason to call this Creed Apostolike and to intitle it the Creed of the Apostles in regard of the conformitie it hath with their writings For by this reason the other Creeds as that of Nice of Athâ—nâ—sius and all other the like writings may as well be named the Creed of the Apostles because they containe a doctrine agreeable to the Apostles writings Therefore say the Doctors it must be beleeued that the Apostles did make it and gaue the same Creed vnto Christians and that it must be beleeued as being a writing composed by the Apostles And their proofe thereof is that they alwayes finde since the Apostles time vntil now that this Creed hath bene proposed in Baptisme and Catechisme as it appeareth by the authors which haue beene from the Apostles vnto vs. And also that no man can name or note any Author or Councell but euen before that Author or Councell immediately to the Apostles time that Creed hath beene proposed in Baptisme and Cat chisme and called among Christians the rule of faith And the like argument S. Augustine in many places against the Donatists doth esteeme to be firme and inâ—incible to proue and shew that something is from the Apostles They willingly omit to auoyd â—ediousnesse the auncient writers as S. Ambrose S. Ierome others who acknowledge this Creed to haue bene made and receiued namely of the Apostles For the second point the Doctors do affirme that the bond and necessitie to beleeue this Creed doth not depend oâ— the knowledge of the Apostolike or Propheticaâ—â— scriptures nor on the knowledge of the conformitie with them For it was made and coâ—â—ained among the Christians in Baptisme before there was any Apostolike writing And in Baptisme they proposed the said Creed to be beleeued before they entâ—ed into the scripture or to speake thereof And in the Primatiue Church they examined the scriptures whether they were to be receiued or nor and the vndeâ—standing of them and whether a doctrine were true or false by this Creed and rule of faith and by it likenesse or conformitie with the same Ireneus Tertullian and others do teach it And although it should so happen that a man had neuer heard but the Creed without knowing whether there be holy scriptures or not hee might beleeue the said Creed and be a true Christian so that hee were voyd of other particular false opinion And contrariwise if the beliefe of the Creed did depend vpon the knowledge of the Propheticall oâ— Apostolike scriptures to vnderstand and to be assured of the conformitie that is therein as 〈◊〉 as to beleeue it 〈◊〉 none but the learned and well exercised in the scriptures who should bee assured of the said conformitie should be bound to beleeue the Creed or should at least be assured of the truth thereof And so should there he very fewe Christians Therfore the belleâ—ing of the Creed doth not depend vpon the knowledge of the scriptures By meanes whereof the Doctors do hold by tradition of the Church 〈◊〉 by the holy Ghost that the Creed is the Apostle and that none ought to doubt therof And by the same tradition it must be beleeued as 〈…〉 of the Apostles of like authoritie with that in their writings although they had no knowledge of the other scriptures And the Doctors are sory that they haue so much declined from answering pertinently and absolutely to these two points which they haue onely proposed to shew what faith and authoritie men ought to giue to this Creed and to all other doctrine receiued by tradition of the Apostles without Canonicall scripture which they will proue to haue bene left by them by the same meane and reason by which is shewed the Creed to haue bin deliuered to the Christians by the Apostles without that they put the same in writing Finally the Doctors do admonish such as read this Conference not to be astonished nor maâ—uell at so many perplexed declinings from the true end of the said points proposed And do pray them to remember the conferences made by S. Augustine with the Donatists and Pellagians wherin they shall finde like maner of dealing as that of the Ministers with whom they do conferre And for the present Conference referre themselues to the readers iudgement The Resolution of the Ministers THe Ministers following that which before hath bene proposed and alwaies by them maintained and for the confirmation also of the faith of the Lady of Buillon say that it is vncertaine as S. Ciprien hath written whether the Creed called the Apostles was made composed by them or else drawne or gathered out of their
2. vnder the name of Oyntment and in many other places Obiection The places heere-aboue alledged make nothing to prooue that the Spirite was promised to all to iudge of the doctrine otherwise euen women and all faithfull Artificers should iudge of the doctrine as the Prophets and Apostles To the contrary whereof Saint Paul sayeth Nunquid omnes Prophetae c. Are all Prophets hee putteth downe expresly that the discerning of Spirites is to haue vnderstanding of the Scriptures and are gifts which are not common to all the faithfull but particular to some Answere The consequence which the Doctors gather is nothing worth forasmuch as the Spirit of God is more abundantly oft times comunicated to some then to others And some also are better exercised in the Scripture then others Touching the place of Saint Paul 1. Cor. 12. the Ministers say It maketh nothing against them forasmuch as the Spirit of prophecâ—e and the spirit of discretion are different gifts as it appeareth by the declaration which the Apostle maketh in the same Chapter The second dayes Dispute beeing Wednesday the tenth of Iuly THE Doctors required that their protestations the day before made might be registred which was such That they protested they would not enter into any Dispute of things receiued in the vniuersall Church from the Apostles time hitherto decided and determined by holy Eâ—umenicall and generall Councells holding them for certaine and indubitable and that all doctrine to the contrary was false But following the good and holy desire of the Lorde Montpensier and Madam de Buillon his daughter they were ready to make knowne by the verey exâ—resse word of God interpreted by the sayd vniuersall Church and Councells that their doctrine wherein the sayd Ladie was formerly instructed is sound and wholesome And that the instruction which hath beene giuen her to the contrarie is perniâ—ious and damnable And that this Conference is by way of instruction and not of Dispute The Ministers likewise protested that they assembled not with the Doctors for any doubt they had that whatsoeuer is conteined in their confessioÌ„ of faith is not certain and true and founded vpon the word of God as appeareth by the places of scripture quoted in the margeant of the said confession And doo beleeue that whatsoeuer is contrarie and opposite therevnto is damnable and to be reiected yea though an Angell from heauen should propose it And as touching themselues they were not come thither to be instructed in other doctrine then such as they follow and haue learned of Iesus Christ whom they acknowledge to be the onely maister and instructor of the Church It was declared by my Lord of Neuers that he desired after the obiections and answeres there should bee giuen a short resolution both of the one side and the other of that was conferred of the day before Following which remonstrance the Doctors say that to iudge of a booke whether it be the writing of holy scripture or not and likewise to discerne a booke Canonicall from one Apocrypha or Ecclesiasticall a man must not rest on his owne priuate opinion or priuate and particular inspiration for as much as none haue ordinarie assurance that it is a true reuelation of the holy Ghost without reducing himselfe to the common consent and agreement of the Church vniuersall And also that God albeit hee had power to reueale and imprint in each one the true knowledge necessarie to saluation yet hath he ordained a certaine meane whereby faith is obtained which is a reuealed truth that is to say by hearing of the word of God preached by lawfull Ministers sent by the Pastors of the true Church as by the text of Saint Paul to the Rom. 10. and Ephes 4. appeareth If then the meane to haue faith and inward reuelation of the knowledge of saluation bee by the hearing of the word of God lawfully preached by the Ministers of the same according to the ordinary meane to be assured that a man hath inward reuelation It behoueth necessarily to bee assured that the word by which faith is obtained hath bene preached by the lawfull Ministers of the true Church And by consequence to be first assured of the church before his own inward reuelation following the meane which Iesus Christ hath followed They say further that the true and certaine marke of a true inward reuelation is when as it is reduced to the common consent of the Church And contrariwise that euery pretended inward inspiration particular and priuate is a false perswasion if it bee different from the common consent of the Church For the spirite of God is not particular but common And say moreouer that to finde out a false doctrine it behoueth to examine the same to knowe whether it bee priuate or common euen as our Lord hath giuen the true marke in Saint Iohn 8. saying Qui de se loquitur mendacium loquitur Hee that saieth any thing of himselfe and of his owne proper inspiration is a lyer And likewise as it is written in Ezechiel Sonne of man prophesie against the Prophets of Israel that prophesie and say vnto them that prophesie out of their owne heart heare the word of the Lord. Thus saith the Lord God Woe to the foolish Prophets which follow their owne spirit and haue seene nothing And afterward they haue seene vanitie and lying diuination saying The Lord saieth it and the Lord hath not sent them and they haue made others to hope that they would confirme the word of their prophesie And the verses following doo serue to the purpose Which false Prophets said they had an inward reuelation and the word of God They say also and let it be well wayed that the proppe of Religion grounded and assured vpon an inward inspiration is the foundation of many Sects in our time as of Anabaptists and Suencfildians who stay their doctrines vpon priuate reuelations and alledge the same texts to serue them for foundation of their doctrine which the Ministers yesterday alledged that is to say Ieremy in the third Chapter and Ioel. 2. and Saint Paul 1. Cor. 2. which Brentius and Bucer considering haue confessed that by the onely tradition of the Church wee are acertained of the bookes of the holy scripture in following the doctrine of the auncient Fathers as Saint Ierome who confesseth hee receiued by the tradition of the Church and by the same did knowe that there bee foure Gospels As much thereof saith Origen recyting the Canonicall bookes of the new Testament saying I haue learned by tradition that there bee foure Gospels And you shall not finde any auncient Catholicke which hath stayed his faith to discerne and iudge of bookes vpon his onely priuate and particular inspiration And Saint Augustine Liber Confess cap. 25. vseth these wordes Veritas tua domine non mea nec illius aut illius sed omnium nostrum quos ad communionem aduocas terribiliter admonens ne priuatam veritatem habeamus ne priuemur
Churches if it were not presently met with knowing also that it was a false reproach which they had put vpon the Ministers began to excuse them assuring the King and the Queene that the Ministers would alwaies be readie to conferre with the Doctors and to defend by the scripture the confession of their Churches in what place soeuer and before such persons as they would it should bee So that they were permitted to pray vnto God as they had required in the beginning of their conference and that they should there obserue the order and meanes which they had proposed or other better as they should thinke good to the end to auoyd all wranglings and the confusion of voyce and cries as is ordinarily seene in schooles and disputes of Sophisters and contentious persons My Lord of Neuers hauing vnderstood these words of my Lord the Admirall found them verie reasonable and perswaded as it is certaine first by the spirit of God and afterwards by a haughtinesse and generositie of heart which thrust him forward with a will to vnderstand the truth of each thing sollicited the King and Queene that by theyr commission and vnder their authoritie the said Conference might bee established And so wrought he that hee obtained of their Maiesties what hee demaunded By meanes whereof hauing aduertised my Lord the Admirall of theyr pleasures they consulted together of the order should bee held in the same conference And resolued in the end that my Lord De Neuers and my Lord the Duke of Buillon should bee the chiefe Iudges therein and that of the one side and the other should some Gentlemen be present to bee witnesses and beholders of whatsoeuer should bee done in the same And further that there should be two Notaries of both sides of the litle fort at Paris which should put in writing and signe whatsoeuer should be alleadged and proposed by the parties These conditions thus conceiued and agreed of among the said Lords were also accepted by the Doctors Vigor and De Sanctes of the one partie and by the Ministers De Spina Sureau of the other partie Who began to assemble themselues together on Tuesday the ninth of Iuly 1566. in the house of my said Lord of Neuers where in his presence and of other Lords which were with him after prayers made by the Ministers in the absence of the Doctors who because they would not be present had withdrawn themselues apart Doctor Vigor spake and began by protestation That the cause why hee and his companion were entred into Conference with the Ministers was not to be instructed in any point of Religion nor any way to withstand the Constitutions of the Councels and chiefly that of Trent by which they are forbidden to dispute with heretikes And that they for their part were wholly resolued to abide in the faith of the Romish Church but that at the request and pursuite of the Lord de Montpensier who for the reducing of his daughter Madame de Buillon had required the said Conference they were come thither to the end to satisfie him declare the holy zeale they haue to seeke and bring backe to the flocke those which are thence departed Wherevpon their speeches ended the Ministers speaking protested likewise that that which had led theÌ„ to conference with the Doctors was not because they doubted of any article conteined in their confession which they knew to bee drawne froÌ„ the pure word of God but that it was to maintaine the same against the Sophistries and cauillations of theÌ„ which would impugne it and to retaine Madame de Buillon in the good and holy institution which shee had receiued by the grace which God had giuen her Thus the protestations on both sides made the Ministers supposed that the Doctors theÌ„ following the intention of my Lord de Montpensier and the desire of Madame de Buillon should haue begunne the Conference by the Dispute of two points the Supper and the Masse But as they that will besiege and batter a Towne begin a farre off to make their Trenches and approaches to prepare themselues to the deciding and conference of the said two points they began to lay their foundation by the authoritie of the Church wherevpon they would establish the certaintie of the Articles of faith and generally of all the holy Scripture And therefore the demaunds and objections were proposed by the Doctors And the answeres giuen by the Ministers De Sainctes beginning and De Spina answering as followeth Actes of the Dispute and Conference holden at Paris Question WHerevpon doo you ground your Religion Answere Vpon the word of God Question What do you vnderstand by the word of God Answere The writings of the Prophets and Apostles Question Doo you receiue for their writings all the bookes of the Bible as well of the olde as the new Testament attributing vnto all one like authoritie Answere No but following antiquitie wee distinguish betweene the Canonicall bookes and the Apocripha calling those Canonicall vpon whose doctrine the faith and all Christian religion is builded And those Apocripha which haue not such authoritie that wee may build or establish vpon them any Article of faith but are proper to teach and well gouerne the estate of life and manners of Christians by reason of the goodly and notable sentences which are comprised in them Question By what meanes doo you know that the one is Canonicall the other Apocripha Answere By the spirit of God which is a spirit of discretion and enlightneth all those vnto whom it is communicated to make them capable to bee able to iudge and discerne things spirituall and to know and apprehend the truth when to them it is proposed by the witnesse and assurance which thereof it giueth them in their hearts And as wee discerne the light from darkenesse by the facultie of seeing which is in the eye euen so may wee easily seperate and acknowledge the truth from vntruth and from all things in generall which may be false absurd doubtfull or indifferent when as we are furnished with the spirit of God and guided by the light which it lightneth in our hearts Question Yea but some man may boast to haue the spirit of God which hath it not And we see by Histories that all heretikes haue euer thought to haue the truth on their side and endeuoured to authorise their doctrine by inward â—euelations which they feigne to haue receiued of Gods spirit Whereby it may appeare what daunger there should bee to referre the censure of a booke or doctrine to the witnesse of the spirit of God which one particular man shal imagine or feigne to haue receiued in his heart Answere Very easie it is to auoyd such daunger in following the counsell which Saint Iohn doth giue vs in his first Catholike Epistle not to beleeue indifferently all spirits but to proue and diligently to examine them before wee receiue or approue what they propose And the triall to be made in
ea Thy truth ô Lord not mine nor of him or him but of all vs whom thou callest to communion terribly admonishing that wee haue not the truth priuate least wee be depriued thereof And touching the bookes of the old Testament which the Ministers will not receiue for Canonicall by the iudgement of their inward reuelation the Doctors doo shewe that before Saint Augustines time or at leastwise in his time in the Church vniuersall all the bookes which are contained in the holy Bible without distinction were holden and receiued for Canonicall as witnesseth the Councell of Carthage where S. Augustine was And also the Councell of Laodicia Now thus say the Doctors the Fathers which were present in these Councels if by inward inspiration wee must iudge of bookes they had it or at least they might perswade themselues to haue it more assuredly then many others The Ministers say that they iudge by their inward reuelation that they be not Canonicall The Doctors leaue it to iudgement which men ought rather beleeue whether the inspiration of the auncient Fathers receiued by the Church for so many hundred yeares vntill now or else the priuate and particular inspiration of the new Ministers They adde further that they submit themselues to proue that the auncient Fathers yea neare the time of the Apostles as Ireneus S. Ciprian Origen S. Ierome S. Augustine and others doo vse the testimonies of the bookes reiected by the Ministers yea for proofe of the doctrine against the heretikes And Saint Augustine himselfe in the 2. booke of Christian doctrine Cap. 2. dooth put all those bookes by name among the bookes Canonicall And Damascen likewise in his fourth booke de Orthodoxa fide Cap. 18. To know then whether a man haue the spirit of God to discerne and iudge of the bookes of the scripture he must bee reduced to the common consent and agreement of the Church for this is the ordinarie meanes left by God to that effect and the experience may bee made is an argument sufficient to conuince that the faithfull by inward inspiration cannot discerne the Canonicall bookes from the pretended Apocrypha Which might easily bee verified would the cause to come at this present some of the same pretended reformed Religion which haue not yet bene instructed in the diuision of the bookes vnto whom should one propose the bookes which the Ministers hold for Apocrypha they would in no wise distinguish them from other bookes of the holy Byble And vpon the whole they conclude that if one person hath the spirite of God c. vt supra Answere Touching the first Article the Ministers neuer said as may appeare by the reading of all the former answeres that their religion is founded on their particular reuelations but vpon the word of God as is proposed in the writings of the Prophets and Apostles Of the truth whereof they haue said to be principally assured by the â—estimoniâ— and reuelation of the holy spirit They also say that faith is not the truth to speake properly but the perswasion of the truth which in the scripture â—s â—aught vs. Moreouer that this faith is not of our owne getting but a pure giâ—t of God adding that the Ministers to make them lawfullâ— ought to bee sent not from the pretended Pastors which haue not but the â—yâ—le and onely name of Pastors but ought to be sent from God a it appeareth in Ieremy where this marke is proposed to knowe and marke a false Pastor or Shepheard when hee thrusteth in himselfe or is sent of an other then of God Touching the article following they adde that the true marke whereby one may certainly iudge of the reuelation is rather the word of God then the consent of many for as much as it oft times happeneth that the multitude in the Church declining from the word doo altogether erre as in the time of Micheas the time of Iesus Christ and afterward also of Constance the Emperour Concerning the Prophets which doo follow theyâ— owne spirite as bee those which leaue the word of God and depend vppon the commaundements and traditions of men or on the vanitie of their owne sence there is no doubt but they are false Prophets and that such persons are to bee shunned and reiected But great difference must bee put betweene the reuelations and testimonies of the spirit of God and the vaine imaginations of the hearts of men Touching that which the Doctors haue set foorth that heretikes as Anabaptists and others doo vse for confirmation of their errors the texts of scripture alledged by the Ministers It may so bee for as much as the scripture beeing common may bee produced and alledged of eueâ—ie one And yet men must not stay vpon that which is alledged but weigh and examine how and to what end and purpose it is alledged and in so dooing men shall knowe the difference betweene the Ministers and heretikes And concerning that produced of Brentius and Bucer namely wherein they affirmed that by the onely tradition of the Church the Canonicall bookes may be discerned from the Apocrypha This it seemeth cannot well serue the Doctors seeing they maintaine all the bookes of the Bible to bee Canonicall and neuerthelesse by that they haue said of Brentius and Bucer it appeareth that the one and the other following the tradition as they say put a distinction therein calling the one Canonicall and the other Apocrypha Touching the Article following wherein the Doctors alledge certaine textes of the auntient Fathers to take away the difference betweene the bookes Canonicall and Apocrypha The Ministers do answer that as they haue alledged some to proue the same so can they also for their part alledge some to that purpose as Saint Ierome in his Prologue called Galeatus and in an other which beginneth Frater Ambrosius vnto whom writing the summe of euery booke of the Bible hee mentioneth those onely which the Ministers call Canonicall They may alledge also two or three Catalogues recyted in Eusebius which they receiue not for Canonicall bookes but those which the Ministers themselues approue Moreouer the Councell of Laodicia which the Doctors haue alledged is for the Ministers for as much as it comprehendeth not the bookes in question And touching the experience they answere that it is a question of fact and that it may be alledged rather against the Doctors then the Ministers And finally that they loose not more time in often repeating of one selfe-same thing but hasten to conferre of the points of the confession which the Doctors will debate The Ministers do shewe that the 24. bookes of the old Testament which are in the Canon of the Hebrewes with all the bookes of the new Testament be on both sides approued Canonicall And they are wholly sufficient to decide all the points of their confession all that in generall which appertaineth to true religion And by meanes thereof they haue no cause at all to drawe backe from the Conference for the
first instructed concerning the Masse The Doctors say that the Ministers by word of mouth haue instructed the said Lady not onely in the error which concerneth their Supper but also in many others as they will make it appeare when they shall handle the articles of the Confession by them exhibited Then willing to instruct the Lady by order in the Catholique Religion they purpose to follow the order held by the Fathers of the Church that is to say to shew vnto her how many errors against the Articles of the faith are contained in the Catechisme of their Ghurch although they shew to them of their religion that they differ in these articles nothing from the Catholiques And because to catechise and instruct one it behooueth to beginne at the foundation and that of certaine articles of the Creed in which the Ministers their like do erre dependeth the beginning of the proofe of the reall presence of the body of Iesus Christ in the Sacrament of the Aultar they will holde the order which all good teachers or instructors doo keepe in all discipline and the Ministers themselues do obserue following in their Catechisme this method And rightly were the Doctors to bee mocked whom men doo take for instructors if they should beginne for the Ministers pleasure to instruct one in that point wherein they ought to ende as endeth the same Catechisme of the Ministers vpon the matter of the Supper Moreouer seeing the Ministers are content as they say that all the articles of their confession bee examined no priuiledge haue they but that one begin at the first for as much as all order so requireth and it is alwayes at the choice of the Apponent to propound in such order as seemeth best to him the questions for the Dispute were there any And for as much as they are bound to giue a reason of their faith as often as they be therof required expedient it were for the good of the Lady for the instruction of those that shall read the Conference to follow this method And if they refuse what the Doctors doo offer they cannot auoyd it but all the world will iudge by the eye that distrusting their owne doctrine which they dare not vphold they confound the Conference Whereas they require that the Doctors in the Conference put foorth but one reason at once wherevnto they may answere without confusion or else that in one day the Doctors put forth all their reasons and on an other day the Ministers may come to answere The Doctors do say that the first offer is reasonable and to auoyd length of speech they accept it but they neuer heard say that the second maner hath bene practised and no need it were to assemble together in one place for that purpose but to send their writings the one to the other Answere Touching the exhibiting of the confession and the offers which the Doctors pretend to haue beene made by the Ministers the Ministers do report themselues to the Registers And do adde moreouer that it appeareth by the Doctors last proposition that it is not vpon the confession which the Doctors say was exhibited vnto them but vpon the Catechisme that they will ground their Dispute For conclusion the Miuisters do eftsoones protest as abouesaid that men may know who they be that doo flye the Lists and require that henceforth the order of arguing and answering may be by course betweene them and the Doctors For as much as it behoueth that things be equall and that it is reasonable that the Doctors as well do render a reason of their faith as the Ministers Reply The Doctors do referre them to what hath bene put in writing in the two first Conferences where speech was alwaies of examining the articles of their confession without making any mention of the Masse And where they say that it seemeth the Doctors would examine the Catechisme and not the articles of the confession the Doctors are content to examine the said articles by conferring them with the Catechisme This considered that these two ought to agree together they make all men iudges that shal read these writings in whom is the let that they begin not the Conference And for the order which the Ministers will now change a new fashion it is and also a new trouble cōsidering that hitherto they haue holden the place of respondent and haue presented to be examined the articles of their confession As for the Doctors they haue bene alwaies arguers and haue not for their part proposed ought to be examined Neuerthelesse they are contented after examination of the said confession that the Ministers doo propound the difficulties they shall haue against the Catholike doctrine wherevnto by the grace of God the Doctors will answere Demaund Whether the Ministers do beleeue the Creed called the Apostles to haue bene made by the Apostles and whether they do beleeue all that is contained therein Answere It is a thing in difference whether the Apostles being together themselues did write it each one of them bringing his sentence as some do hold or whether it hath bene gathered out of diuers places of their writings But so it is that in the reformed Church men beleeue euery point to bee drawne from the pure Propheticall and Apostolike doctrine contained in their writings as if one should say that it is a Summarie of the doctrine which the Apostles haue preached because it beareth and containeth the same Question Leauing to auoyd tediousnesse whether it bee a thing indifferent for a Christian to beleeue that a doctrine hath bene written by the Apostles or no if it be conformable to that which shal be found in holy writ they demaund whether all doctrine conformable to the said Letters may take indifferently the title of the Apostles or other authors of the scripture Answere No man can faile to call it Apostolike doctrine but in naming it Apostolike writing one might giue to vnderstand that it was written by their owne hands or spoken by them But howsoeuer it be where we shall acknowledge any doctrine to sauour of the spirit wherwith the holy men of God haue bin moued that call we Propheticall and Apostolike doctrine Obiection The demaund was not whether the doctrine be Apostolike for any such conformitie but whether for this reason it may be attributed to the Apostles and of like authoritie as the Scriptures vnto which it is conformable forasmuch as it proceedeth from one selfe same spirit as is sayd in the answere Answere The Answere thereto is made to wit that such a writing doth containe Apostolique doctrine and in some sence it may be said to be the Apostles Obiection The Answere vnder correction nought pertaineth to the question For it is not demaunded whether men may esteeme it Apostolique in respect of the conformitie but whether for this conformitie men may attribute it to the Apostles and giue vnto it the tytle and name of the Apostles and whether for the said conformitie
it be of like authoritie with the proper writtings of the Apostles Answere The first question was whether the Creed were made by the Apostles Whereunto hath beene rendred sufficient answere After which it is lawfull to make the second demand which is diuers from that Obiection The second dependeth on the first and so hath it been made Whether it bee thought sufficiently answered let the iudgement thereof be referred to the reader Answere Because it dependeth thereupon it is not therefore the same Question Whether they approoue the Creed onely because they know it to be conformable to the writings of the Apostles Or whether there any other cause which incyteth them to beleeue it Answere It is not onely conformable but the doctrine it selfe and for that cause doo they beleeue it and approoue it Question Whether a man be not bound to receiue it but for so much as hee knoweth it to bee the same writing or conformable to the writings of the Apostles as is aforesaid Answere The principall cause that may moue him that beleeueth it to beleeue it is the knowledge afore spoken of Question Although this be the principall cause they require an absolute answere whether there be not other sufficient cause to beleeue it in such wise as this first is necessarie Answere For the Creed and euery other thing we beleeue the principall cause is the knowledge we haue that the same hath bene left in writing or collected of the writings of the Prophets and Apostles And we for our part seeke no other reason but that of the faith which we haue Obiection They answere not vnder correction to the question which is whether to receiue the Creed of the Apostles this cause be necessary to know the cōformitie of the said Creed with the writings of the Apostles and that without the same none can or ought to receiue it The Doctors pray them to auoyd circumlocution and answere absolutely the one or the other And more simply to explane the question this it is to wit whether one ought not to receiue the Creed of the Apostles but because he knoweth that it is conformable to the Apostles writings Answere The matter considered after the doctrine of S. Paul that there is no true faith without knowledge and assurance of the word to beleeue it behoueth to know that it is the word of God Question It would be knowne whether they vnderstand this word to be written or not written Answere The word written and reuealed by the Prophets and Apostles which is the foundation of the Christian faith Obiection The Ministers doo then maintaine that before the beleeuing of the Creed or proposing it to be beleeued it behoueth to be instructed or to instruct an other in the writings of the Apostles and Prophets Now that is contrary to all the order euer holden in the Church and contrary to that which is contained in the forme prescribed for administration of the Sacraments in the Church at Geneua made by Caluin and inserted amongst his workes which beareth these words addressed to them that haue charge of the childe they baptise For as much as the matter wee haue in hand is to receiue this childe into the fellowship of the Christian Church yea do promise whē it shal come to yeares of discretion to instruct it in the doctrine which is receiued and approued of Gods people And after these words is inserted the Creed after which it is said they shall proceed to the instruction of the childe in all the doctrine contained in the holy scripture of the olde and new Testament so that before they propose the Creed to be beleeued they propose not to be beleeued that there is any word of God written nor what it is nor that therein contained to know the conformitie of the Creed with the same Also they place not the foundation of the beleeuing of the Creed vpon the knowledge and conformitie of the scripture but vpon the doctrine receiued and approued by the people of God As the auncient Church yea before the scriptures of the new Testament were written did wontedly propose both to great and small the beliefe of the Creed before they proposed the holy scriptures vnto them as by Christian antiquities appeareth And therefore the beliefe of a Christian touching the Creed dependeth not on the written word but vpon the word reuealed to the people and church of God Answere Touching the first article it is very necessarie that in teaching a childe or any other ignorant person the Creed of the Apostles they also forthwith teach him the doctrine of the Apostles and Prophets seeing that which is contained in the Creed is no other thing but the selfe-same doctrine and that they are things not onely conioyned but also like if not in words yet at least in sence and substance Touching the second article they denie that that abouesaid is any way cōtrary to the established order in the church of Geneua or any other well gouerned Church And as touching the reason drawne frō the forme of the Baptisme vsed in the said Churches it followeth not by the alledged words and sayings thereof that Caluin proposed thē to exclude the Creed and to seperate the same from the writings and doctrine of the Prophets Apostles which is impossible but plainly to shewe that when he added that word hee meant therin to comprehend it and generally which the Doctors haue omitted in their allegation to comprehend that which remaineth in the holy scriptures after the deduction he had made of the points of doctrine particularly comprised in the Creed And for the other reason added that the Creed was proposed to those that were catechised before any booke of the new Testament was written they grant it But it followeth not therefore that it was not founded on the word and doctrine which the Apostles did preach although then not put in writing And likewise on the writings of the Prophets wherevpon is founded the doctrine of the Apostles For conclusion the Ministers put no difference as touching the sence betweene the word of God preached and written Obiection The Ministers it seemeth haue not well conceiued the meaning of the Doctors For the question is not whether the Creed bee conformable in it selfe to the writings Apostolike but whether it first behoueth to beleeue and vnderstand that the Apostles and Prophets haue put a doctrine in writing vnto which the Creed is conformable and that otherwise the Creed cannot bee beleeued And for more easie explanation the question is whether it be not possible for a childe being come to yeares of discretion or any other by the instruction of the father and mother or others to beleeue the articles of the Creed without being first instructed by them that there are certaine Apostolike writings vnto which the Articles of the Creed are conformable And whether to moue them so to beleeue it be necessary to know that conformitie Let the Ministers absolutely answere therevnto Answere Faith
is by hearing and hearing by the word of God wherevnto agreeth that which Iesus Christ saith putting the hearing of the word before the faith thereof saying He that heareth my word and beleeueth in him that sent me c. Also that which hee commaunded the Apostles first to preach the Gospell that the hearers might by preaching be disposed and brought to the faith For these reasons knowledge that the doctrine which is taught is the word of God is necessarie to beleeue And without that it is not possible for a man to haue faith or beleeue in God except he be first assured that what is taught him is the word of God And for the demaund made touching the instruction of children growne to yeares of discretion or others whether it be requisite they should know the word before they beleeue it The answere is yea And Thomas himselfe saith that the faith of the articles of the Creed ought to be expounded that is to say cleared which cannot be done without the knowledge of the word Obiection In such an answere there is multiplying of words without ought touching the point proposed for they doubt not but that they ought to Catechise children and others and to expound by the word of God the Articles of the Creed vnto them but the question is whether they must vnderstand that this Word is written in the bookes of the Prophets and Apostles so that without the knowledge of those writings they cannot haue the knowledge and beliefe of the articles of the faith contained in the said Creed The Doctors pray the Ministers to answere yea or no and after their answere to adde what reasons they will Which thing if they will not do the Doctors will proceed to an other article after notwithstanding for conclusion of all they haue shewed vnto them that if this knowledge of the scriptures were necessarie to vnderstand the articles of the Creed in examining them according to the conformitie of the same scriptures that it behooueth sith the foundation is so necessarie to place this among the Articles of the Creed I beleeue that there be holy scriptures And it is to be noted that there is not any mention made in the said Creed that there are holy scriptures So that a man may be truly a Christian before he vnderstand that there is any Christian doctrine and word of God written And therfore to beleeue and vnderstand the Creed it is not necessary to knowe the word of God to be written And the Doctors do protest that they will speake no more of this article Answere By conference of the demaunds and answeres it is easie to iudge who more abound in speech they which propound or they that answere Touching the second article the answere is as before that to beleeue and be a Christian the knowledge of Gods word is necessarie whether the said word be written or reuealed And as touching the remonstrance made the Ministers do answere that they for their part will in no wise allow men should ought adde to the pure word of God And they beleeue that the Creed of the Apostles is nothing else but the pure word of God which is proposed vnto vs by his spirit saying that it should bee a breach against his commandement to adde therevnto new articles And they do maintaine that had there bene other articles which had bene necessary to saluation the spirit of God would not haue omitted nor forgotten them For conclusion albeit no expresse mention bee made of the holy scripture in the Creed yet so much is there couertly vnderstood that the Church which cannot stand if shee be not built and founded vpon the foundation of the Prophets and Apostles is there proposed for an article to beleeue Reply The Doctors say that this answere is impertinent and no more to the purpose then the former And although the Prophets and Apostles had not written yet had the Church bin built vpon their foundation as it was in the time of AbrahaÌ„ and before there was any scripture which were it necessary to saluation it had bene put amongst the articles of faith Answere The Ministers say that this reply is yet more impertiment and for the reason thereto added that the faith was in the time of Abraham although there were no word written they do agree therevnto But it is ill inferred there is no written word There is therefore no word And it is a fallacie in argument which the Logicians doo call A dicto secundum quid ad dictuÌ„ simpliciter From a qualified saying to a saying simple The fourth dayes Dispute on Fryday the 12. of Iuly THe Ministers do shewe that they still continue their former requests considering the protestations aforesaid made by the Doctors who haue twise declared that they were not assembled but onely to satisfie the Lord Montpensier and my Lady of Buillon considering also the request publikely made by the said Lady in the assembly to bee instructed in the point of the Supper and not vpon the others whereof she thinketh her selfe sufficiently instructed and not to need therein any further teaching And for these causes do the Ministers request as before they haue done that the first thing whereof they shall conferre be that of the Supper and of the Masse And the rather for that they vnderstood by some worthy of credit that the Doctors intend not to enter into conference vpon that point Vpon this declaration the Doctors say that they are ashamed to heare so often protestations and that the Ministers it seemeth will thus spend the time to flee eftsoones the Conference of the articles of their confession which neuerthelesse they haue oftentimes set forth to be examined And where they say that Madame de Buillon for instruction of whom the company is assembled hath required publikely to bee instructed in the articles of the Masse and in no other They say that some mention shee made for Conference of the Masse but they neuer heard say that she held her selfe sufficiently instructed concerning the other articles The Doctors do offer that if the said Lady will confesse that she beleeueth all the other articles proposed by the Ministers and their like against the doctrine of the Catholike Church to be eâ—ronious they are presently readie to enter into Conference of the Masse But contrariwise if she be seduced with errors contrary to the doctrine of the Church Catholike to keepe the order which appertaineth to instructors and to lay the foundatioÌ„ of the Masse the Doctors haue determined according to the good holy desâ—e of my lord Montpensier to carâ—chife teach the Lady his daughter coÌ„cerning euery article by order And they further say that the Ministers do what they of their Church are accustomed which is alwaies to flie back froÌ„ the Confereâ—ence with the Catholikes and be forâ—the point proposed by them be decided they put an other in Dispute as did Beâ—a and the Ministers with him at Poissy who
doctrine and why also it is called the Apostles Creed or whether it is because each of them added his part and portion therevnto or else whether it be because it is a marke and certaine ensigne of Christian Religion And as touching the same that it is a thing indifferent to saluation in as much as it hath alwaies one waight and authoritie be it that the Apostles haue written it or that it hath beene faithfully gathered out of theyr writings So haue also the Creeds as well of Nice as of Athanasius whereof the Church hath neuer doubted but that they containe a pure Apostolike doctrine as shee hath euidently declared in ordaining that the said Nicen Creede should bee publikely proposed and published to the people on the dayes of theyr assembly to communicate which at this day is yet obserued in the Church of Rome where that Creed is read or sung euery Sabaoth in their Churches And did it not containe Apostolike doctrine it should withstand the 59. Article of the Councell of Laodicia in which it is forbidden to read in the Church any thing proposed of priuate inuention but onely the doctrine comprised in the Canonicall bookes of the old and new Testament the number whereof is there made The Ministers say further that the reason and principall motiue of the faith which Christians giue to the Creed is the knowledge they haue that it is the pure word of God and him that teacheth it do they also maintaine to bee the word of God as may appeare by that which S. Paul writeth who after he had proposed to the Corinthians the death buriall and resurrection of Iesus Christ which be the chiefe articles of the Creed and those vpon which principally iustification is grounded addeth these words That hee deliuered vnto them that which he receiued to wit that Christ died for our sinnes according to the scriptures and that he was afterwards buried and that he arose againe the third day according to the scriptures Iesus Christ also proposing his death and resurrection to the two Disciples alledged to them the scriptures thereby to assure them saying O fooles and slowe of heart to beleeue all that the Prophets haue spoken ought not Christ to haue suffered these things and to enter into his glorie And hee began at Moyses and the Prophets and interpreted vnto them in all the scriptures the things that were written of him In the selfe-same Chapter appearing after his resurrection euen before the Creed was made proposing vnto them his death and resurrection to assure them thereof hee alledged vnto them the scriptures saying It is thus written and thus it behoued Christ to suffer and rise againe from the dead the third day Whence may be inferred that for the foundation of faith and assurance of the articles of the same there is no better means then to propose the scriptures And although in the time of the birth of the Church the Creed was proposed to those that were Catechised before the Apostles and Euangelists had put any thing in writing it followeth not therefore that there were no other scriptures wherevpon euery article of the faith might be builded And to decsare the same particularly The article of the creation hath it foundation vpon the beginning of Genesis The article of the almightinesse of God hath it foundation vpon the 40. Chapter of Esay and diuers other places of the scripture The article of the conception of Iesus Christ vpon the 7. Chapter of Esay For the place of his birth vpon the 5. of Micheas and in respect of the time vpon the 49. of Genesis and the 9. of Daniel The article of the death and of the Crosse vpon the 22. Psalme 53. Chapter of Esay and 9. of Daniel The article of the Resurrection vpon the 16. Psalme The article of the Ascention vpon the 68. Psalme The article of the iudgement in Daniel 12. The article of the sending of the holy Ghost in Ioel 2. The article of the Church Esay 2. and Micheas 4. The article of the remissiof sinnes vpon the 32. Psalme and 37. of Ezec. The article of the resurrecton of the flesh and life eternall in Daniel the 12. By this discourse and places of scripture quoted it may appeare to euery man that there were cleare and euident scriptures to ground all the articles of the faith vpon before the Creed was put in writing and that men might ought to alledge them to those that were catechised to assure them of that which was proposed vnto them to be beleeued And it is not possible that a man can beleeue that hath not first heard and vnderstood the Word and that is not assured thereof and holdeth it as certaine and more also were it possible then things conceiued and comprised by Mathematicall demonstration as it appeareth by the definition of faith when the Apostle calleth it Hypostasin elenchon That is to say the euidence of things which are not seene The Ministers do adde that it implyeth a contradiction to call the Creed a doctrine not written and yet to affirme that the Apostles haue written it And they cannot shewe how long it was an vnwritten doctrine and at what time it began to be written And the Ministers are much displeased in that they which conferre with them doo not more propose the edification as well of those that bee present at this Conference as of others which may see and read the Acts thereof For where as they might handle and decide points tending to edification of the simple they stay on proposing and handling some things whereof they no way doubt which is as much as to proue a thing confessed and resolued on and to light a candle at noone-day And they assure themselues that they which shal read the acts of this Conference will not at all bee abashed because they decline to treat of that point whereof they be so oft required for that as Iesus Christ saith he that doth euill fleeth the light For conclusion the Ministers do protest to confesse and beleeue that the Creed of the Apostles in euery article therof is the pure word of God and in the faith wherof it behoueth euery faithfull man to stay and petseuere vnto the end So that they would no way receiue nor approue the man in their Churches that should denie or ought doubted of the said articles Reply The Doctors will proue that the doctrine of the Ministers containeth points contrarie to the principall articles of the Creed The first is against the article of the Almightinesse of God when as they say and teach that God cannot cause one body to be in two places The second is against the article of the creation when as they say that God not onely permitteth euil and sinne to be done but also himselfe doth it The third is that one while they denie and an other while they confesse for an article of faith that the Virgin Marie remaineth a Virgin after
any euill consequence seeing that all this doctrine is true and doth containe no manner of obscuritie And if any peraduenture take harme thereby it must bee imputed to themselues and their euill vnderstanding whereby not onely some doctrine but also the word of God it selfe may be sometimes peruerted and corrupted To be short all things as saith the Apostle be cleane to those that be cleane and polluted to those that be polluted and haue an euill conscience And where the Doctors alledge that one may take occasion by the doctrine abouesaid to interpret the scriptures according to his owne sence and fantasie the Ministers say no. And where some one would attempt the same they say it shall be easie to reiect his interpretation as not answerable to the rules and analogie of faith as the foresaid doctrine and interpretation of the Ministers is answerable therevnto Where the Doctors say that the Ministers do change and alter the scriptures The Ministers answere that it is a slaunder which can no way bee proued against them neither by their writings nor by their speeches nor by any thing they euer said or thought Concerning what they adde that the scripture saith that the body of Iesus Christ is in two places the Ministers denie it and do say that contrariwise the scriptures do establish it in heauen and nor else-where according as it is written The heauens must containe him vntill the time that all things bee restored which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy Prophers since the world began And where they alledge that the scripture ought not to bee interpreted according to euery mans sence and phantasie the Ministers do confesse it adding that all interpretations ought to bee examined as S. Paul saith but that such examination must bee done by conference of the scriptures And where the Doctors accuse the Ministers not to haue alledged any passages of the scripture for confirmation of the foresaid doctrine before they produced the auncient Fathers The Ministers do answere that it is a false accusation and that they should well haue remembred in the beginning of their discourse that they alledged to this end S. Paul 2. Tim. 2. Where it is said that God cannot denie himselfe And that which is written Hebr. 6. It is impossible that God can lye Which places with those they produced out of the auncient Fathers were not alledged to diminish ought the omnipotencie of God But rather to establish the same and cut off the way to many impieties and blasphemies which they would falsly propose and shrowde them vnder pretext of the omnipotencie of God without hauing regard to his reuealed will wherevnto we must referre the Omnipotencie The sixt dayes Dispute on Tuesday the 16. of Iuly THe Doctors obiect that they haue made such an argument God cannot cause one body to be in two places God is not therfore Omnipotent That this cōsequence is necessarie it is most manifest without other proofe by the lawe of contradiction For according to the rule holden in all schooles of Philosophie two contradictions cannot be true To haue power to do all things and to haue no power in certain particular things be contradictions For this particular thing is a part of all If thē the Antecedent be true of necessitie the consequence must be false according to the lawe of contradiction for they two as contradictories cannot be true together And notwithstanding albeit that by the knowledge of the termes thēselues a man might iudge the consequence to be good neuerthelesse it is plainly knowne by the deduction of the obiectiō against the answere of the Ministers that the Doctors haue proued the consequence The reason of the Ministers was thus God cannot lye hee cannot sinne hee cannot cause that things made be not made Therfore it either repugneth his nature or there is repugnancie on the behalf of the creatures bicause there is a folded contradiction Now the Doctors in their obiection haue said that there is nothing like in the question proposed that is to say whether one bodie may be in two places Whervpon they make such an argument taken from their obiection God can do all things which are not repugnant to his nature or where there is no repugnancie in the behalfe of things created and that no contradiction is therin implyed But to affirme one body may be in two places at one selfe-same instant is not a thing repugnant to the nature of God and on the behalfe of the body implyeth no contradiction God therefore can do it Or else thus God cannot do it It followeth therefore that God is not Omnipotent And so is proposed the reason and deduction of the antecedent and consequent Yea and the proofe of the assumptiō or second proposition For they haue proued there is no contradiction in saying that one body might be in two places and that it doth not repugne the nature of GOD whereof the probation hath bene made by example of like things As God can cause two bodies to be in one place and other like reasons deducted in the Obiection And where the Doctors say they preposterously argue from a particular to a generall It seemeth vnder correction they haue forgotten the rules of Lodgicke For very certaine it is that this rule hath place in affirming and not in denying But contrariwise when there is some thing affirmed in generall and the default in particular proued as say Logitians Ad negationem particularis sequitur negatio eius quod vniuersaliter affirmatuum est Likewise when there is some of a whole thing which hath many parts affirmed and default is proued in one part the destruction of the whole followeth As if one should say All the bodie is sound Hee that should proue one part of the bodie diseased should proue this proposition All the bodie is sound to be false Such is the argument which the Doctors haue made to wit If God cannot do one particular thing as to cause one bodie to be in two places then he cannot do all things Or if he can do all things he can do that also They are agrieued to be sent backe to their Logicke For they regarded no other ende but to make the antecent to be graunted to wit that God cannot make one bodie to be in two places And are verie glad to haue vnderstood the resolution of the Ministers vpon this Article that is to say That God cannot cause nor will one bodie to bee in two places for as much as it implyeth contradiction And where the Ministers doo say that the Doctors by their reasons could not thereof inferre the truth of the antecedent The Doctors confesse the same And thereby doo the Ministers also sufficiently perceiue that the reasons they haue brought are nothing worth to the confirmation of the antecedent which is their resolution But the Doctors say that these reasons albeit they be nought were to this end neuerthelesse produced by the Ministers to proue that
the feare of God or any zeale of his honour to be wise and attentiue to weigh and discouer the sayd subtilties and practises of the Diuell and not to beleeue all spirites before they haue well sounded and tryed them and that they also approue not all the things which vnder the name of God may be proposed vnto them and which at the first may seeme to tende and appertaine to his honour and glorie but that they remember the Apostles admonition to try the spirites and that they verie carefully regarde the ende and scope of those which propose vnto them such doctrine And if there be any thing wherin heed must be taken of such cosonages and fraudes which are layd to surprise the simple it is needfull chiefly in this matter of the Omnipotency of God whereof is the present question For the Ministers do confesse that it ought to be knowne beleeued and vniuersally adored of all creatures in heauen and in earth Moreouer they confesse that the faithfull cannot haue a better foundation nor better rampert to leane vnto and sustaine themselues against all the endeuours as well of the diuel the world and their other enemies as also to be short of all the temptations wherewith they might bee assayled and befieged This Omnipotency they confesse is the hinge of the axeltree as it were wherevpon the world with all it parts is turned and sustained They confesse moreouer that the same Omnipotency is not only venerable to the Angels and blessed spirits in heauen and to the elect and Saints vpon earth but also terrible to the reprobates and diuels in hell So that the one doth willingly embrace and submit themselues vnto it and the others are constrained to bow vnder it and yeeld vnto and obey the same Lastly they confesse that it is infinite and of incomprehensible greatnesse to all creatures as the wisedome goodnesse Iustice truth and the other vertues and proprieties of our God This is that which the Ministers beleeue and confesse of the Omnipotency of God and that which they thinke all Christians ought thereof to beleeue and hold Now to make good vse of this Almightinesse and to apply it as is meete we must iudge thereof according to his will and of his will according to his word So that we ought not to attribute indifferently to the power of God all things good and euill ordered and disordered agreeable and contrary to his nature false and true But to well rule and order the thoughts and cogitations of Gods Omnipotencie presenting themselues in our hearts we must for our part measure the same according to his holy will and beleeue that it cannot be limitted letted nor hindred by any other will or power which wil or may be opposite vnto it Which thing S. Augustine well teacheth in many places as in the fift booke and 10. Chapter of the Cittie of God where speaking of God hee saith That he is called almightie because he doth all whatsoeuer he will and suffereth nothing if he will it not Also in the seuenth Chapter of the 21. booke For no other reason but this onely is he called Almightie that he can do all whatsoeuer he will doo Also in the first Chapter of the booke De Symbolo ad Catec Our God saith he doth all that which he will do and that is his Almightinesse Also in the 119. Sermon De tempore He is Almightie to do all things that he will do and ordaineth to be done These sentences and many other lyke found in the writings of that good Father and other Auncients do clearly teach vs the maner how we may well make profit of the faith we haue of the omnipotency of God That is in bringing vs backe to his will and iudging of his will by his word and not by the false imaginations which therof we may conceiue in our minds or that others would propose vnto vs As did Sathan to Iesus Christ whom he would haue induced to cast downe himselfe headlong vnder a vaine trust of helpe from the omnipotencie of God Euen so also the Monarchians who vnder colour and pretext of Gods omnipotencie which of some myracles they gathered would proue and establish their heresies and take away the personall distinction which is betweene the Father and the sonne saying That God being Almightie could therefore make himselfe Father and sonne together Of the Anabaptists in these last times is it also found that for a vaine assurance which they put in the omnipotency of God hoping he could nourish them as he did the byrds would not labour Many such lyke more great inconueniences may happen to all those that hauing such wandering and stragling thoughts of the Omnipotency of God wil not restraine nor reduce them to his will And this we see is besalue the Doctors who willing to apprehend and measure the omnipotencie of God by their owne imaginations rather then by his will and word are as saith S. Paul become vaine in their imagination and their foolish heart is filled with darknesse And willing to behold the Maiestie of God out of the limits and bounds which hee had shewed them in his word haue bene intrapped and ouerwhelmed of his glorie And that is befalne them which in their resolution they themselues haue touched to wit that for not hauing taken the word of God for their guide nor followed the steppes and pathes of his holy spirit they do erre from the faith which contrarie to that which the Doctors doo thinke is not destroyed nor ouerthrowne by the consideration of the creatures and workes of God which are as a myrror of his glorie and diuinitie but in as much as by them wee were turned away from the promises of God by the which we are assured of his will and almightinesse which doth warrant and assure vs of the effects and accomplishment of this holy will Which may bee seene and clearly obserued in them that were sent by Moyses to espie out and know the Land of the Cananites Two of which namely Iosua and Caleb could neuer be withdrawne from the trust they had in theyr God For as much as turning their mindes from the consideration of all things which could make them doubt thereof as of the Fortresse and munition of Cities the number force weapons and experience of the countrie Inhabitants they stayed their minds in the sole consideration of the promises which God had made vnto thē Cōtrariwise the others forgetting the same promises nought cōsidering but that which they saw before their eyes they fell and caused all the people to fall with them into that cursed and damnable infidelitie for which they were so grieueuously punished in the wildernesse and excluded from enterance therevnto and enioying of that thing which God had promised to theyr Fathers And in the example of Abrahā whose faith abode firme and stable by the consideration chiefly of the promise and will of God as S. Paul declareth So that the consideration of
maliciously oppose himselfe to the knowledge of the truth or which shall resist the same Against the merit of the bloud of Iesus Christ and passion of the Crosse in proper termes haue they written that had Iesus Christ onely dyed by the sorrowes of corporall death and by the sheading of his whole bloud he had nought done nor profited for our redemption if beeing on the Crosse hee had not endured in his soule the paines of the damned before his death and other horrible blasphemies contained in the atticle of the discent into hell The Ministers do also instruct their adherents that murther adultery robbery theft and euery crime whatsoeuer is but a veniall sinne to one predestinate who is neuer say they out of the fauour of God what thing soeuer he commit and do assure their faithfull and those of theyr Church to beleeue firmly that they are in grace and predestinate which is in plaine termes albeit the Ministers will otherwise excuse thē to giue leaue and license to commit all wickednesse and other articles which the Doctors will verifie where the matter shall require the same If the Ministers denie these points to be in their writings and published in their Sect the places of Caluins bookes which the Doctors noted in the Margin wil testifie the same To be briefe behold the glory of God and of his sonne Iesus Christ wherevnto tend the Ministers by the rooting out of the pretended impieties mentioned in many articles of their last resolution For briefe answere wherevnto the Doctors doo say that some things by slaunder of the Ministers are falsly imputed to the Catholique Church that others are expressed in the holy scripture and others drawne from the same and confirmed by the traditions of the Apostles and the vniuersall consent of the first Christian church the deceits excepted which the Ministers adde in euery article And so shall it bee shewed and proued at the least in time and place if the Ministers haue patience to handle in it ranke euery difficultiie but if to make their doctrine confused they persist to mingle all together the Doctors do protest to mocke therat without answere Moreouer the Ministers in generall doo rightly attribute to the power of God and say well that the certaine knowledge thereof is to be taken by the scriptures which hath bene alwaies auouched to them by the Doctors Very well say they also that it is infinite and incomprehensible But when they come to particularities and to shew wherein the omnipotencie lieth and consisteth then forget they holy scriptures and without them do measure the same according to the wisdome and eternall wil of God according to the order established in the world and as though they remembred no more that such power were infinit they tie it to the conditiō proprietie natural order of creatures As though to make something against or aboue the order condition natural proprietie of the creatures were a thing repugnant to the wisedome nature and wil of God Behold the short resolutiō which the Doctors can gather of the Ministers opinion touching the omnipotencie of God which shall appeare by their writings and answeres giuen to the said Doctors And as touching S. Augustine which they produce for them he hath bene answered heretofore The Doctors refer them to their writings cōcerning that which the Ministers do falsly tax thē to hold as a sufficient argument to infer some matter to be done of God to shewe that he hath power to do it The resolutions and obiections of the Doctors do plainly containe the contrarie The Doctors are also falsly accused by the Ministers as if they had affirmed the faith wholly contrary to nature Who haue onely said that the contradiction ordinarily made to faith founded vpon the word commeth from the consideration of naturall things against the power of God Concerning Abrahā the scripture in Genesis alwaies proposeth that he his wife made some difficultie touching the promise of God And cōsidered Corpus suū emortuū mortuā vuluā Sarae His owne dead body the dead wombe of Sarah vntil he heard the assurance of the omnipotēcie And S. Paul sufficiently declareth the speech of Abraham from his first vocation vntil after such assurance without putting distinction in the Historie of that which was before or after such assurance as is that which the Apostle saith that he cōsidered not Corpus suū emortuū his owne dead body but rested vpon the assurance of the almightinesse of the promise made vnto him The Doctors say they haue better concluded according to the faith we ought to haue of the power of God to make one bodie in diuers places then the Ministers haue done which haue not any word of God to settle theyr faith vpō to beleeue that God could not do it or that it repugneth the wisedome prouidence and eternall vertue or the humanitie of Iesus Christ yea the nature of a simple bodie only But concerning all that the Ministers do trust in their owne presumption and particular reuelation without one onely passage of scripture wherevpon they might stay theyr opinion Contrariwise haue the Doctors founded their faith not on the power of God onely to make one body in diuers places but to beleeue the deed and that God hath so willed on the holy scripture as in theyr Resolution is contained with the passages of auncient Fathers which they to this end haue alledged Which are so plaine that the Ministers cannot iustly but affirme the same And their starting holes shall be cōuinced by the simple reading of the bookes For all the rest of the Ministers resolution where are mightie iniuries Impostures and slanders against the Doctors they answere nothing hauing regard to the Ministers manner of dealing And the Doctors also do well vnderstand that it should be lost labour to teach the Ministers who more esteem their owne particular reuelation for their whole instruction then all the doctrine and remonstrance of the Church vniuersall and all Christians together And freely do the Doctors pardon all the iniuries they haue done them as people voyd of sound sence and without iudgement which thing they declare by theyr maner of dealing An obiection of the Supper by the Doctors against the answere of the Ministers WHy the Doctors in the beginning of the conferences haue not touched the Article of the Supper it sufficiently appeareth by the first dayes Acts. And a deceit it is which the Ministers haue done in taxing them to haue recoyled from entering into that matter For it shall be proued as well by the offers which the Doctors haue often made to confer by word for quicker dispatch of the said matter and then at more leisure to put it in writing which the Ministers haue refused as also by the first obiections which the Doctors proposed touching the article of Gods omnipotencie wherby they touched the foundations vpon which are builded the errors of the pretended reformed religion against
the reall presence of the body and bloud of Iesus Christ in the holy Sacrament And shall moreouer be verified in that the Doctors haue obiected to the Ministers some arguments against their Supper to make them enter into the same Vnto which they haue nothing answered or so impertinently at the least as one may iudge by the reading of their answere that they fled the Lists as yet also they do by their last writing hiding as much as they possibly can what they thinke of the Supper albeit they haue bene admonished to answere therevnto plainely and to purpose Whether the Doctors or the Ministers retyre shall bee seene by effect For albeit the Ministers will not answer the Doctors will not leaue to aduise them thereof and to manifest to all the world the intollerable errors which bee in the Supper and in all the doctrine of the Ministers Who beeing demaunded dare not confesse and auouch by writing what hath beene written by the inuenters of theyr Supper Now to begin to speake thereof the Ministrrs do maintaine it to be celebrated according to the ordinances of Iesus Christ and after the fashion which the Apostles vsed and all the Primitiue Church whiles it flourished and abode in it puritie Wherevpon the Doctors demaund how long the Ministers esteeme the doctrine of the Supper to abide in it puritie And whether the Church were not then as pure in the doctrine of all the other articles as of this Furthermore whether since that time there is not some place in the world where the true doctrine of the Supper and of other Articles haue beene retained and conserued and whether such doctrine hath euer continued without interruption and in what place and by whom hath it bene preached and set forth and from age to age The Doctors desire the Ministers to make declaration thereof for that it much importeth For as much as before Caluin put forth his Catechisme there was no memorie that such doctrine as he taught had bene held in any Region and the Supper was not celebrated after the fashion and maner as it is celebrated in the Church called Reformed The Doctors would willingly cheare vp the Ministers who are much disquieted in their writing because the Doctors haue said that their Supper differeth not from a common banquet except in that it is worse as being prophane and polluted To meete wherwithall the Ministers haue made a great narration of the whole action of their Supper and by faire shewes which haue a forme of all godlinesse they endeuour to make it very commendable and to couer a new nothing betweene two platters And contrariwise that they may tread vnder foote and abase the thrise precious sacrifice of the body and bloud of Iesus Christ in the Masse by renting in peeces some shewe of him as if they were vsed without reason or signification which the Ministers vnderstand not or make semblance not to vnderstand But things ought not to be prised and esteemed by their shewes but according to their value nature and truth Moreouer the Ministers should foresee that all the Sects which bee now in the world against the Church Catholique for the act of the holy Sacrament doo vse at the least as faire shewe as they And were they thereof asked there is not any which would not enforce himselfe to proue that it approacheth nearer to Iesus Christ and his Apostles and the Primitiue Church then the pretended reformed Religion dooth Concerning all which the Doctors referre them to the writings of the Lutherans Zuinglianists Anabaptists Trinitaries Maister Alasco and such like For vnreasonable it is by such faire deceits to preferre the Supper of the Ministers to other Sects to iudge it good holy vnpolluted and according to the word of God but to repute it rather polluted and defiled with impietie for as much as it cloaketh a lye in stead of truth and giueth the shewe of pietie to impietie and falshood Also the Doctors haue not dispraised the Supper of the Ministers for the praises therein giuen to God or for the confession they there make of their sinnes or the preaching if it contained the truth or for other preparation But therefore did they say it was detestable because against the ordinance of Iesus Christ it contained not but common bread and wine and yet that they attributed vnto it some spirituall effect and other faire pretext of godlinesse The which is an abhominable thing and inuentiō of Sathan who endeuoureth by such maner of Supper to abolish and extinguish the true Supper according to the institution of Iesus Christ and to depriue the faithfull of the fruite and veritie of the same Supper in causing them to giue common bread onely instead of the body and blood of our sauiour Iesus Christ The Doctors could as well recyte the euill shewes as the Ministers do recyte the good which be in their Supper as the secrets the new enterprises practised vnder colour and shadow of assemblies made in their said Supper But to the ende the Ministers reproach not the Doctors that Priests spake of armes of contributions c. they passe it ouer with silence and referre them to the thing it self and wil content themselues to declare some causes whereby they maintaine that there is no truth in the same Supper according to the institution of Iesus Christ which are such as follow That in the Supper of the Ministers and theyr like no consecration can be made of the matter of bread wine which are there proposed And that for this cause there is not in the same matter any change made be it before or in or after the vse And by consequence that the bread and wine in such a Supper cannot be but common That no consideratiō is made in their Supper hereby appeareth first that it belongeth not to all persons to consecrate bread and wine in the Supper but onely to those that by imposition of the Pastors and Bishops hands are lawfully ordained according to the succession from the Apostles time euen vnto vs. Now certaine it is that the most part of the Ministers of the Church called Reformed be not ordained by the laying on of the Pastors hands who haue the power by succession frō one to an other since the Apostles Whereof we must conclude that such Ministers vsurping the office which pertaineth not to them cannot make any consecration and giue not by consequence but common bread and wine Which article shall be spoken of when we shall entreat of the sacrifice and Priesthood Secondly to make consecration of the bread and wine it sufficeth not that the person be fit to consecrate the matter but also it is necessary that the lawfull Minister by a certaine meane do make the consecration to wit by blessing and pronouncing of certaine words ouer the matter proposed euen as Iesus Christ hath first obserued it And because the Ministers albeit they were lawfully ordained and that they had authoritie and power to
in the assembly one selfe-same bread to the end that all the partakers thereof should bee by that meane conioyned and more straightly closed in one body each one hath his owne particular the Priest one more great and the people one lesse Seeing also that the Cup is not any way distributed to them Furthermore what dutie do the Priests to inuite and exhort the people to communicate with them yea the Bishops themselues who would at this day repute it great shame to communicate with crafts-men and other inferior people To conclude had the Doctors well noted the custome of the Fathers which caused the Cathecumenians others there not prepared to communicate to depart the place where the Communion was celebrated and that likewise which S. Iohn Chrisostome saith thereof they would shame to defend such an abuse impietie as is that of their Masse And that the people may not bee ignorant of that which these holy Doctors therof saith we will translate the same word for word It is in vaine that the daily sacrifice is made It is in vaine that we abide at the Aultar there is no person which there communicateth I say not this to the end that yee communicate in any sort soeuer but that ye yeeld your selues worthy thereof Art thou not worthy to communicate so art thou not worthy to pray Also a litle after If some one were called to a banquet should wash his hands and sitting at the table should not eate nor taste ought of the meates which should there be serued should he not dishonour and wrong him that inuited him had it not bin better he had not come there Euen so it is with thee Thou art come thou hast sung the Psalme with the rest of the people thou hast confessed that thou wast of the number of the worthy in not departing with them which are vnworthy How then abidest thou and doost not perticipate of the table of the Lord Thou sayest I am vnworthy I answere thee that thou art so whereby also vnworthy of the Communion of prayers Thirdly the gobbets and offalls of Gospels and Epistles the Symbole praier other peeces of the scripture brought all confused and not hanging together said and proposed to the people in an vnknowne language against the expresse commaundement of God and without any edification of the congregation is no other thing then a vaine vsurpation of the name of God against the expresse prohibition which he hath made thereof And such robes are too straight and short to couer the shame and filthinesse of the Masse Fourthly what an execrable abuse is it to say that the Masse serueth to obtaine remission of sinnes not onely for the quicke but also for the dead And that the Priests passing yet further not to forget or leaue any blasphemy behind do diuide their hoste into three parts faigning one part to be for them in heauen an other for them which are on earth and the third for them in Purgatorie For the Sacrament which is not ordained but for confirmation of the faith of the word extendeth not further then the Ministerie nor the Ministerie further then this life As then it is so that they which are in heauen and they likewise whom they faine to be in Purgatorie are dead and departed from this world we must necessarily conclude that as the word cannot be preached to them so also the Sacraments cannot be administred to them And if they be not administred to them that they can profit them nothing The end of the Resolution Answeres to the last obiections proposed by the Doctors touching the Supper THe Ministers say that many things there are in the said obiections impertinent to the matter in question as that they demaund how long the doctrine abode in it puritie touching the Supper and the other articles of Religion Wherevnto they answere that from the time of the Apostles themsemselues there were heretikes and Antichrists as Ebion Cerinthus Simon Magus the Samaritanes and others who by their errors and heresies went then about to peruert the Aposto lique Churches and corrupt the pure doctrine which was therein Wherevntothe Apostles by all possible wayes did manfully oppose themselues reuoking and euer reducing all things to their first institution and foundation of the pure word of God as we see did S. Paul towards the Câ—rinthians and Galathians whose Churches although he had well planted and watered were neuerthelesse corrupred in his life time as well in manners as in doctrine And to that which the Doctors demaund how long after the decease of the Apostles continued the puritie of the doctrine and Religion in the Church of God as well in the Article of the Supper as in others the Ministers answere that so long time it there continued as the word of God was followed and preached To that which the Doctors say afterwards traducing the Supper celebrated in the reformed Church that the Ministers abuse those that are there present nought else giuing them but nothing betweene two dishes the Ministers answere that this blason much better fitteth the Doctors then them because they present not to them whom they haue summoned to their Masses but accideÌ„ts of indiuisible waues and the sight onely of the formes of bread and wine to feed them withall A litle after do they call their sacrifice of the Masse most precious whervpon the Ministers grant that they haue reason so to exault it to attribute thervnto so precious and magnificall a tytle for the great reuenewes and riches which this precious sacrifice hath brought vnto them wherof may well be said that it hath bene vnto them a fleece and golden Myne more abundant then euer was that of Iason or all the Mynes of the East In as much as they haue made the world beleeue and chiefly the founders of Abbayes Priories and other benifices that their sacrifices were vaileable to them for the redemption remedie and health of theyr soules Afterwards without all shame do the Doctors call the Supper of the Lord detestable because there is nought therein offred say they but common bread wine Whervnto the Ministers answere that in their Supper is truly presented bread and wine to the people which after consecration abide in their substance as before but they denie that therfore the said bread and wine be common by reason as heretofore hath bene amply declared to the Doctors that by the preaching of the Gospell and recytall of the ordinance of God both the one and the other is changed as is said touching the vse but not touching the nature To that wherein the Doctors do charge the Ministers to make insurrections conuenticles coniurations conspiracies and secret practises against the state of their Prince vnder colour pretext of their Supper the Ministers answer that the same was not to impugne their doctrine but rather shamelesly to despight and slaunder them And that the fidelitie of those of the reformed religion hath bene knowne