let him be accursed Ioh. 20. These things are written that ye may beleeue c. And as for the iudgment of the Aduersaries in this matter which affirme that the scripture is lame and maimed chiefly note Bellarmine and his arguments for this purpose They teach the scriptures to bee defectiue and weake that we might giue place to their traditions and forgeries wherefore let vs a little consider this matter of Of Traditions traditions The word Tradition is generall and signifieth any doctrine written or vnwritten and so this word is vsed both in the sacred scriptures and in the ancient Writers albeit the Papists affirme that the Fathers vse this word onely to signifie a doctrine not written Testimonies of scripture which cleere the generall acceptation of the word are these Act. 6. 14. And shall change the ordinances which Moses * Quos nobis tradidit Moses 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 gaue vs or which wee had from Moses by tradition 2. Thess 2. 15. Keepe the tradition or doctrine * Traditam doctrinam 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 deliuered vnto you which ye were taught either by word or by our Epistle The word tradition in Scripture is giuen other whiles to things ncessarie and continuing and sometimes to things not necessarie and temporarie The testimonie which is 2. Thess 2. vers 15. is of necessarie doctrine The place which is cited out of the Acts 16. 4. is of ceremonies for heere the Spirit speaketh of a decree of the Councell holden at Ierusalem concerning bloud and things offered to idols and that which is strangled Of which Act. 15. 28. As touching traditions which concerne necessarie points of faith manners they were first deliuered by the liuely voice of Christ his Apostles and then the short summe of them recorded in bookes as may appeare by that speech of the Apostle concerning the Lords supper 1. Cor. 11. 23. And againe 1. Thess 4. 2. * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 where he giueth rules of an honest conuersation And againe 2. Thess 2. 15. And as touching traditions which be not necessarie but ceremoniall they were either recorded as of Ecclesiasticall rites 1. Cor. 11. 14. or not recorded 1. Cor. 11. 34. Other things will I set in order when I come He promiseth heere to set in order but ceremonies and namely such as did concerne the Lords supper Of ceremonies onely this I wil say they did no way exceed neither were Of Ceremonies Good rules they vnprofitable neither were they deliuered with anie 1 opinion of necessity to bind mens consciences neither 2 were they contrarie to those things which were written 3 yea this I auouch y t there was nothing deliuered by way 4 of tradition or touching ceremonies by the Apostles which had not good ground warrant in Gods word that is in the bookes of the Prophets and in the doctrine of Christ which not long after was written by the Euangelists and Apostles And as for Popish traditions Popish traditions and ceremonies and ceremonies there is no end of them they are vnprofitable they are like old wiues fables all for the most part deliuered with an opinion of necessitie and most of them most repugnant to the Apostolicall doctrine And thus do we distinguish traditions The aduersaries vnderstand by Tradition their vnwritten veritie not that which is no where found written but that which is not written by the first author thereof that is by him which deliuered the same by his owne liuely voice This then the Papists do here professe that they cannot find their traditions in the Scriptures nor proue them by the Scriptures CHAP. XV. Of the seuenth propertie and ninth controuersie THE sacred scripture is the iudge of all controuersies I meane such controuersies as are concerning religion Now there bee two principall controuersies concerning religion the first is of the scripture it selfe who shall be iudge here or how it may be tryed that the scripture is the word of God The second The iudge of the scripture is of the sense and interpretation of the scripture who shal iudg of that or how it may appeare that this or that is the very naturall sense of the Scripture I meane by iudgement here a definitiue sentence pronounced and giuen with such authority as that all men must herein rest By the word scripture I meane not only the substance thereof but also the form of reuelation which is also by diuine inspiration Againe this manner of speaking is improper when we say of the scripture that it is the iudge of controuersies For to speake properly the holy Ghost is the iudge for the iudge must be a person and the holy Ghost he is the third person in Trinity The Scripture therefore is not properlie said to be a iudge but it is the voice and sentence which the Iudg hath giuen the principall instrument or meane wherby y e spirit sets forth his iudgment whereby he teacheth vs and worketh faith in our hearts And the spirit here iudgeth freely in and by whom he pleaseth being not tied to any one kind of men as Pastors Doctors but in and by whom it seemeth good to him Here then three things must be considered of vs First whether the holy ghost be a iudge Secondly whether the scripture be his principal voice wherby he giueth First whether the holy Ghost be a iudge sentence or determineth any question Thirdly whether he iudg in and by any man without difference or respect of persons or be bound to one certaine kinde or sort of men For the first question I answere the holy Ghost is a Iudge first for that he was promised of Christ Io 14. Math 28. Mar. 16. vnto his church at his last departure from the Apostles is giuen as it were deputed Christs vicar on earth both to teach and to iudge c. Secondly for that among other offices of the holy Ghost this is one to iudge But because the aduersaries do not much gainsay this assertion concerning Io. 16. Gods spirit that by him all things are to be iudged and tried and that by him the scriptures are to be interpreted therefore we will be briefe in this point Now for the second point that the holy scripture is the primarie Secondly that the holy scripture is the principall voice of the iudg voice of this iudge iudiciarie and proper to him whereby he begets faith in our harts may appeare by these reasons following First the scripture is the word of God Secondly it is most auncient Thirdly it is most cleere or euident To these I ad the testimonie of the scripture it selfe Ioh. 14. 25. 26. He shall teach you all things and bring all things to * Suggeret remembrance which I haue told you And hereunto may also be added the common experience of the Saints There are other meanes to prooue this but lesse principall among which the testimony of
written which was before deliuered by the liuely voice Q. I pray you speak in order vnto me of the subiect or argument in scripture written first by God himself secondly by mē by Moses the Prophets and Apostles A. I will do so Q. What then hath God written A. The sum of the doctrine of the couenant of works of the law euen the very same which he had deliuered first by a liuely voice to the Fathers and to Moses Q. What hath Moses written A. All the celestiall doctrine which he had receiued partly of the fathers by tradition partly of God himselfe Moses books who spake mouth to mouth with him for so the scripture speaketh partly he had learned of the holy Ghost by an inward inspiration to speake in a word whatsoeuer had happened to him and to all the people in his life time for the space of 100. and 20. yeares all these things he committed to writing and gaue to the people Q. Did Moses then write what soeuer true doctrine was deliuered from the beginning of the world to that time A. Moses omitted no point of true doctrine which at any time had bene deliuered concerning either faith or manners for from the beginning vntil that very time one and the same doctrine of truth as touching the substance was taught full and whole in all ages The difference only was in the measure of the reuelation of it that it is accidentall Moses deliuered this doctrine fully and wholy by liuely voice more cleerely and manifestly then euer before then after this it was recorded in writing Q. What did the Prophets write who followed Moses euerie one in their time and order A. The same and all as touching the substance which Moses had written before the difference only was herein that euery one by reuelation did adde a more cleare manifest interpretation as the bright morning starre did approch more neere Q. What haue the Apostles written after the Prophets A. All and the same which from the beginning of the world in al ages before them was both by liuely audible voice deliuered and written they first also by a liuely voice deliuered the same and after committed it to writing Q. Doe you then make no difference betwixt the writings of the Prophets and of the Apostles A. In the matter and substance none in the clearenes and perspicuity thereof very great for the scripture of the Apostles conteineth the same reuelation of the mystery which was declared from the beginning of the world but most fully and most clearely Q. I haue heard you speake concerning both kinds of reuelation considered without comparison now I would haue you to compare together the liuely voice writing that by comparison it may appeare whether is of greater dignity authority A. I will compare them together the liuely voice and scripture are compared either in respect of substance and matter is selfe which is reuealed by these meanes or in respect of the kinds of y e reuelatiō of it If cōparison be made in regard of the matter or substance they must needes be both equall alike seeing that the matter in either is one and the same but if you compare the kinds of reuclation together it cānot truly be denied but that the first better place is due to the liuely voice seeing that the liuely voice is both in respect of time more auncient was before the organs or instruments thereof for the mouth is an instrument more worthy to be preferred before the hand and is a kind of teaching more familiar more fit for the capacity of such as are more rude ignorant Albeit also in some respects writing is to be preferred before the liuely voice For it is a more perfect accurate kind of reuelation fit to instruct those that are more perfect to keepe the truth more firmely In the meane while it cānot be denied but y t in other respects they are both alike for they haue both spoken written the same thing in the same manner to wit as being guided moued by the holy Ghost inspired of God 2. Pet. 1. 21. 2. Tim. 3. 16. To conclude seeing that now the liuely voice by the wil of God hath ceased and in the place of it the scripture hath succeeded so that whole dignity of the liuely voice before mentioned is and ought worthily to be ascribed and referred vnto the scripture or written word of God Q Doe you meane then that the Prophetical Apostolical scripture ought to be now in as great account with vs as the liuelie voice of God himselfe and of extraordinarie men was in times past A. I meane so and in his kinde of reuelation alone I willingly rest as in that which came by inspiratiō from God so long vntill I shall heare at his glorious comming that liuely and most sweete voice of Christ my Sauiour when he shall say to them who shall be at his right hand Come ye blessed of my Father inherit the kingdome prepared for you from the beginning of the world To whom be all praise for euer Amen To God only wise be praise through Jesus Christ for euer Amen
Christ which notwithstāding hold I know not what freedom of will that our meritorious works do cōcurre in our votion iustification glorification with the grace of God For as touching our calling although they confesse this to be true that preuenting grace as they speak doth so preuent or preoccupy vs euen then when we thinke nothing of the grace of God or of preparing our selues to receiue grace but being as it were a sleep in sin yet they do ascribe to free-wil that affiance which we giue vnto faith wherby we assent vnto preuenting grace admit y e same as though we had any actual free-wil or self power as they speak to receiue the grace of God We do grant some power or freedome of wil wherby it inclines after a sort vnto that which is is good I vnderstand a power of the matter but wee do vtterly deny that men by nature haue any actual free-will or that we haue a selfe power to do that which is good as it is good That selfe or neere power of will or liberty of will to good I define to be that liberty in the will which is by the essentiall forme of Potentia propinqua holinesse or by the image of God which is imprinted in the will as may appeare in the Chap. of free-will before handled Therefore wee hold and teach that in receiuing the first grace our will stands before God meere passiuely and not actiuely that is when the free grace of God preuenteth it we say it hath a power vnto good but the same to be of the matter only as schoolemen speak passiue which they call a remote power Againe we auouch that the same power is made actual by meanes of diuine grace preuenting vs y t is by the working of the holy spirit who taketh possession as it were of vs by the preaching of the Gospell whereby the holy Ghost doth renue our hearts inspiring that life of God into vs frō which we were before altogether strangers as it is writtē Eph. 4. 17. 18. 19. creating in vs againe that image of God which was lost that image I say of holinesse true righteousnesse As touching our iustification where our aduersaries do affirme that it is two fold terming y e 1. habituall the 2. Popish iustification actuall they say that we are prepared by our free-will to the 1. iustification as by a principal agent by the grace working together with the same But as for the 2. iustification that they place in works proceeding from free wil from our first iustificatiō which they cal infused grace And here they ascribe life euerlasting to the merit of this 2. iustification which dooth consist in the workes of our free-will and of infused grace as they call it Hence we may see that they do not attribute to the only grace of God any of the former benefits neither iustificatiō nor vocatiō nor glorificatiō nor any of those spiritual graces which God in time giues to his children But they do part them betweene Gods grace free-will and mans merit Finally if any comparison be made between God vs concerning the conferring of these benefits we shall Note find them to ascribe more to vs and our free-will our works then to the grace of God But we haue written somewhat of this before in the chapters of our effectuall calling of repentance of free-wil Therefore I refer the reader to these places and here I end this matter Thus far then haue we spoken of this common place of our effectuall calling which because it comprehendeth vnder it many other points of diuinity it may be wel reckoned amongst the most generall heads of Theologie OF THE MEANES WHEREby God from the beginning hath reuealed both his couenants vnto Mankind Question HOW many waies are there whereby God from the beginning hath reuealed all his will that is Kinds or forms of reuelation the doctrine of both couenants of works grace vnto mankind A. They are two Q. Which be they A. The first is a liuely voice the second is the Scripture Q. What callest thou a liuely voice A. The first meanes of reuelation whereby God partly by his owne mouth and partly by men hath manifested VVhat is meant by a liuely voice the whole doctrine of both couenants to his church from time to time Q. What were the instruments of that liuely voice from the beginning A. First God himselfe spake sometimes by his Sonne in VVhose it was the forme or likenes of man appearing to the Fathers sometimes by his spirit inwardly in the heart Secondly the liuely voice of Angels was heard Thirdly the liuely voice of men first of the Fathers then of Moses and the Prophets after that of Iohn the Baptist vntil Christ Then lowed Christ himselfe manifested in the flesh Last of all the liuely voice of the Apostles of Christ Q. This kind of reuelation which was by a liuely voice of al The quality of it these whom you haue named was it by inspiration and altogether free from error A. Concerning the liuely voice of God himselfe of Christ and of the Angels there is no question and as concerning men whose liuely voice God hath vsed from the beginning of the world hitherto in reuealing his wil to his Church they truly albeit they were sinfull men and in part onely regenerate notwithstanding in the deliuery of the doctrine of the truth of both couenants they were so extraordinarily gouerned and inspired with the Holy Spirit of God that they could by no meanes erre Q. Doest thou meane then that all men as manie as haue beene from the beginning of the world hitherto by whose mouth God hath-spoken to his Church were men extraordinary endued with extraordinary gifts of the holy Ghost confirmed by miracles A. I meane euen so for prophecy in times past came not by the will of man but holy men spake as they were moued by the spirit of God 2. Pet. 1. 2. Q. At what time began this liuely voice in the Church VVhen it began A. It began euen in the first creation of man Q. How long hath the liuely voice of God and men who could not erre in deliuering the doctrine of the truth continued Continuance of it in the Church of God A. It hath been from the beginning of the world euen to the death of the Apostles all which time there was almost no age wherein at least some one holy man of God was not extraordinarily stirred vp who could not erre in deliuering the doctrine of the truth Q. Why doe you say almost was there anie intermission at all A. Truly there was but I will name onely some more notable intermissions which may be gathered out of the holy scriptures First in the age of the Patriarches it is obserued that there was an intermission in Terachs time who was the Father of Abraham for albeit he retained some grounds of
truth receiued from his Fathers notwithstanding he became an Apostata and an Idolater as is manifest by the historie Next there was an intermission also when the people liued in Egypt for from the death of the Sonnes of Iacob euen to the departure out of Egypt Ezechiel testifieth Chapter 20. that al the people were fallen frō God to the Idols of the Egyptians Lastly there was an intermission from Malachy the last of the Prophets vntil Iohn Baptist in all which time no Prophet was raised vp notwithstanding the word of God was cōtinued amongst the people of y e Iewes by high Priests and the ordinary ministery but not without corruptions so that at the comming of Christ for the more part the doctrine of truth was now corrupted Q. Ought not the liuely voice of God which is not subiect to errour bee continued in the Church vntil the comming of VVhether a liuely voice not subiect to error continues til Christ Christ because you said that this liuely voice did continue in the Church till the comming of the Apostles only A. The liuely voice of Christ continues in the Church I confesse but not the liuely voice either of God or of extraordinary men such as were the Fathers Prophets and Apostles but only the liuely voice of ordinary men of pastours and doctors who both may erre do erre whensoeuer they depart neuer so little from the prescript word of the Prophets and Apostles Q. But God hath giuen a greater measure of his holie spirit to his Church which now is vnder Christ then euer he gaue to the old Church Therefore if in the old Church there was a liuelie voice which could not erre how much more shall there be now in the Church of Christ a liuelie voice which cannot erre A. It is true indeed that together with this full reuelation which is cōtained in the writings of the Apostles a more full spirit was giuen to the Church of Christ which now is then was giuen to the the old Church But hence it followeth not that either the Church or the Pastors and doctors in the Church are so gouerned with that Spirit that they cannot at all erre in deliuering the truth For this was the extraordinarie gift of the holy Ghost which was giuen but for a time but the gift of the Spirit which was giuen to the Church of Christ since the times of the Apostles is ordinarie and perpetuall to wit the gift of sanctification illumination and regeneration Q. The Church then which now is seemes to be in a worse case then the old Church was which had the liuely voice of God of men which could not erre A. That doth not follow for this Scripture of the Prophets and Apostles which nowe the Church hath doth not erre in doctrine and containes also a most full and most cleare reuelation of the truth Q. Albeit I should graunt the condition of our Church to better then of that old Church which was before Moses and which had the tradition and vse onely of the liuely voice and that verie imperfect and obscure notwithstanding I see not how the Church was not in better case which was after Moses euen to the comming of Christ as hauing not onely the vse of tradition and of a liuelie voice but also of the Propheticall Scripture as a light shining in a dark place A. Truly that Church had both that is both the sound of a liuely voice and of the Scripture and written word of God but neither perfect and absolute But this Scripture which our Church alone hath containes a most full and plaine reuelation for euen one forme or maner and kind of reuelation which is perfect and full must be more excellent then two which are both imperfect or which containe an imperfect reuelation of the truth Q. But there is no man who would not say it were better with this our Church if it had some liuelie voice which in speaking and answering to all controuersies might not erre A. They haue Moses the Ptophets and Apostles that is the writings of Moses of the Prophets and of the Apostles and those truely not onely sufficient but most perfect whēce only if they cānot learne the truth by thē and decide and end all controuersies they will not be instructed with the liuely voyce of anie extraordinary man howbeit as I haue said before the liuely voice was to continue onely so long in the Church as some thing was wanting to the full declaration of the mystery of Christ So that if now there should be any need of the liuely voice either of God or of some extraordinarie man in the Church of Christ that truly should plainely argue that the reuelation of the truth and mysterie of Christ is not perfect as yet nor accomplished Q. You conclude then that since the Apostles time there hath beene no liuelie voice heard in the Church which could not erre A. Yea truely Q. Whie did a liuelie voice not subiect to errour continue in the Church all that time which was from Adam to the Apostles A. To speake nothing of the will of God with the which alone we ought to rest contented first the condition of the Church did require this continuance then the measure of the reuelation that then was Q. Whie the condition of the Church A. Because the visible Church in all that time which was from Adam to the Apostles was both in place more streight as being shut vp in one family or in one nation was by reason of age weaker or not so wel growne For the Church before Christ if I may so speake was either as a child or as a young man Q. What then A. The liuely voice doth more easily reach or extend it selfe to a Church which is in place more streight and to the Saints fewer in number the church being as yet vnexpert by reason of the age of it and lesse growne had neede of the liuely voice of a teacher none otherwise then children haue neede of the liuely voice of a maister who as it were stammereth with them but after the comming of Christ when the Church was sufficiently instructed by the liuely voice of Christ and of his Apostles and now come to mans estate there was no more heard anie liuely voice either of God or of men extraordinarie Q. Whie did the measure of Reuelation require this A. Because all that time which was from Adam to the Apostles there remained as yet some thing more clearely and more manifestly to be reuealed and the reuelation of the doctrine was in seuerall ages made more manifest still as pertaining to the substance of it and so long as some thing remained to be more clearely reuealed so long a liuely voice was to continue for euerie new reuelation ought first to begin with a liuely voice Q. Seeing that the last and most full reuelation was by the liuelie voice of Christ and his Apostles hath there euer since
beene heard anie liuely voice either of God or of anie extraordinarie man A. None at all Q. Do you gather by these things which you haue spoken concerning the causes of the continuance of a liuelie voice in the Church what was the vse of it heretofore in the Church A. Yea truly for the vse of it was first in respect of the Church it selfe to giue it instruction while it was yet so small for place and so young in knowledge next in respect of reuelation to deliuer it from time to time more cleerly and euidently vnto the people Q. By this vse of a liuelie voice which you haue here mentioned it seems that this kind of ruelatiō which was by a liuely voice was the more simple and the more familiar and the more imperfect and therefore the more fit for persons and things that were of like imperfection A. It is euen so as you haue said Q. Hitherto I haue heard you speake concerning a liuelie voice now I would heare something of you concerning the subiect of it what say you then was taught all that time by a liuely voice A. In al that time and in euery age the selfe same and the whole truth of God was deliuered by a liuely voice The subiector master of the liuely voice Q. Wherefore then said you that the perfect manifestation of that mysterie of godlinesse was not accomplished till the Apostles time A. By that fulnesse perfection I vnderstood not the substance of the doctrine it selfe but the quality that is the clearenesse of one and the same doctrine For the mysterie of Christ was in the Church and was manifested in some measure from Adam vnto Christ and the Apostles but if the comparison be made of times it may be said to be shut hidden in all ages before the comming of Christ Q. Was the paritie of the heauenlie doctrine sufficientlie conserued and kept by a liuely voice A. The historie shewes plainely that the doctrine deliuered by liuely voice was often corrupted and adulterated Q. How then was it restored It seemed good to God afterward by new reuelations to restore the puritie of his word decayed to conserue and keepe it and to giue a more full declaration of it Q. Was the puritie of doctrine sufficientlie preserued and kept so A. Not so verily and therefore it seemed good to God at length to adde hereunto the written word Q. Are there no other causes of writing the holie Scriptures A. There are for first the condition of the Church required that the Scripture should be added vnto the liuely voice and next the measure also of reuelation Q. Why the condition of the Church A. Because at length in Moses time the Church began to be both in place more large as being spred throughout a whole nation and to grow greater and riper in yeares for the time from Moses vnto Christ was as it were the time of the midde age or young yeares of the Church Q. What then A. The written word therefore was first in respect both of place and ripenesse of age for both a whole nation is more easily taught by writing then by voice and the age which is more ripe is more capable of that doctrine which is deliuered by writing that is by that kind of reuelation which is not so familiar and simple and by writing doth more easily conceiue any mans meaning Q. Why doth the measure of reuelation require the written word A. Because whereas before Moses the reuelation of the mysterie of godlinesse was small and very obscure it seemed not good to the Lord to cause it straight waies to be written to the intent it might be kept for posteritie But when in Moses time the Reuelation began to bee much more cleare then before then it seemed good vnto God to commit it to writing to the intent it might be reserued and remain for those which should come after For that which is more perfect and full that wee are to write to this end that it may remaine both for vs and our posterity but that which is more imperfect that we doe not esteeme worthy the writing or to be reserued vnto posterity Q. Before you go anie further I would haue you declaare vnto me the ages of the Church where of you haue so oft made mention A. I will so do Q. How manie ages then say you are there of the Church A. Three the first was from Adam vnto Moses which was the infancy and childhood of the Church the second from Moses vnto Christ which was the youth or middle age of the Church the third from Christ and his Apostles euen vnto the end which may be called the ripe age of the Church if it be compared with the ages past for otherwise we are not men growne vntill we bee gathered together with Christ our head in heauen Q. Do you meane then that God had respect alwaies of these three ages in his proceedings with his Church A. I meane so indeed for that I may so speake hee hath tempered these three things proportionally to these three ages of the Church to wit first the measure of reuelation secondly his holy Spirit thirdly the manner of reuelation Q. Declare I pray you more particularlie what you haue said A. To the infancie and childhood of the Church he gaue the least measure of reuelation to wit first the first principles of religion onely Secondly the least measure of the holy Spirit to wit that which was proportionable to the reuelation Thirdly one onely kind of reuelation which was by liuely voice as being the most fit for the instruction of infants and of such as were weake in the faith Q. I vnderstand what you saie concerning the first age of the Church now I would haue you speake concerning the middle age which you call the youth of it and to applie these three things mentioned to it in like manner To the middle age of the Church he gaue first a greater measure of reuelation Secondly so to speake a greater portion of the holy Spirit Thirdly a double kind of reuelation the liuely voice and the Scripture The liuely voice I say because as yet it was but weake and the written word because it was in age better growne and so more capable in some sort of the word written for God hath tempered these two kinds of reuelations together and of both hath made a middle kind of reuelation according to the time and age which wee call the middle and as it were the temperate age Q. You haue spoken of the first second age of the Church now I pray you speake of the third A. To the third age of the Church which I call the manly or ripe age he gaue first a full measure of reuelation Secondly a most plentifull effusion of the holy Ghost Thirdly both those kinds of reuelation and that now truly containing a full and perfect reuelation hee taught it by liuely voice for a certaine
time after this he added the writings of the Apostles And when as the mystery of our saluation was fully reuealed by that liuely voice first and then that full reuelation was written euer since there hath beene no more vse of the liuely voice of any extraordinarie Prophet or Apostle But the Scriptures written first by the Prophets and after by the Apostles remained only without any liuely voice which could not erre Q. Where must wee begin to count the third age of the Church A. Not so much from the comming of Christ and the sending of his Apostles to all nations as from that time when the Apostles ceased to speake with liuely voice aswel to the Iewes as to the Gentiles for euen then the Church catholick came to mans estate full growth and then the Church began to vnderstand and to learne the wil of God by the written word as being a more accurate and perfect manner of reuelation The time then which was frō the cōming of Christ vntil the death of the Apostles was as it were a passage from the middle age of the church vnto the ful growth ripenes of the same Q. I vnderstand what you say cōcerning the causes of additiō of the written word to the liuely voice of the seuerall ages of the Church now I would haue you speake some thing concerning the scripture or of the writing of Gods word A. I will do so Q. What then call you writing or Scripture A. I call scripture or writing the second kind of reuelation whereby God either by himselfe or by the meanes of men extraordinarily reuealed those things which already had beene deliuered by liuely voice before to wit in that first kind of reuelation Q. Who then were they who euer since the beginning haue written A. First God himselfe next men Moses the Prophets and the Apostles Q. This kind of reuelation which was by writing was it not subiect to error like as that kind which was by a liuely voice A. No truly for concerning that which God himselfe did write there is no question and touching men they were so extraordinarily inspired and gouerned by the spirit of God that in writing they could not erre at all Q. When began it then to be written A. In Moses time Q. How long did the word written continue in the Church A. The scripture or the act of writing continued from Moses euen to the Apostles all which time there was almost no age wherein extraordinarily some one was not stirred vp who in deliuering the doctrine of truth by writing could not erre Q. You thinke otherwise of the scripture it selfe then of the act of writing A. I do so for the scripture it self or that which is now written by Moses the Prophets and Apostles yet continues in the Church and shall continue vnto the second comming of Christ Q. Was there any intermission of writing the word from Moses vnto the Apostles A. There was for it appeareth in all that time which was frō Malachy to Iohn the Baptist none was stirred vp either Prophet or writer inspired by God for the books of the Machabees be not giuen by inspiration as we shal shew hereafter Q. You said that writing continued in the Church vntil the time of the Apostles ought it not then to continue euen vnto the end A. Like as since the Apostles time there is no liuely voice heard in the Church which can be said to be so goned by the holy Ghost that it can not erre at all So since the Apostles nothing is written in the church which may worthily be called or said to be giuen by inspiration Q. What then do you think of so many writings of godly and learned men which haue been published since the times of the Apostles from time to time to the great good and profit of the Church A. Verely I thinke of the writings of Pastors and Doctors in the Church as I think of their preaching to wit that both be subiect to errour and neither is so gouerned by the holy Ghost but that in deliuering the truth of God they may erre Q. It seemeth then that the condition of the Church which is since the time of the Apostles is not so good as hauing neither the liuely voice as is afore said nor the writings as now you speak of those very mē who in deliuering the truth cannot erre A. It hath the scriptures of the prophets and Apostles which as pertaining to the substance of reuelation is full and as touching the kind forme of reuelation it is giuē by inspiration not subiect to error out of the which scripture whosoeuer do not learne all things which are necessary to faith and saluation assuredly such would not receiue from the mouth of God himself openly speaking in an audible and intelligible voice the doctrine and instructon of faith and saluation Q. Wherefore did the Lord so continue to record his will by The cause of the continuance of writing Gods word writing in the Church all that time which was from Moses to the Apostles A. There are the same causes of the continuance thereof as are of the addition of the liuely voice vnto writing For both the condition of the church and the measure of reuelation required the same Q. Why the condition of the Church A. Because the church continually increased and grew as in number so in knowledge Q. What then A. The greater number and riper knowledge do require this that the word be written Q. Why the measure of reuelation A. Because the reuelation of the doctrine of saluation was from time to time made more cleare and manifest euen vnto the times of Christ of his Apostles at which time it was in the end compleate and perfected For it was meete that euery reuelation manifested more cleerely fully should be recorded in writing to this end that it might be surely kept and deliuered to posterities Q. Can ye gather by these things the vse of the continuance The vse of writing of scripture in the Church of God A. Yea truly Q. What is then the vse of it A. To passe by the conseruation of the purity of doctrine the first vse was in respect of the Church for the instructiō thereof as being now in place more ample large in knowledge more perfect Secondly it was in respect of the reuelation of the doctrine it selfe that it might cōprehend and keepe it more fully and cleerely Q. By this vse of scripture or writing which you giue it seemes that this kind of reuelation which is by writing is somewhat more perfect high as that which is best agreeing fitting to persons and things that are more perfect A. It is euen so Q. Thus far then forwriting or scripture now I would haue you declare something vnto me concerning the subiect of this writing of the matter it selfe which is written A. As touching the substance the very same is
Couenants NOw we be to compare a little our assertion with the aduersaries and to consider which of both sides is of soundest iudgment touching both these couenants of works and of grace A rule to trie the opinion of the aduersaries ours by can none better be found thē the doctrine of Paul speciallie that in the Epistle to the Romans and namely in that disputation which he hath of iustification in the 3. first Chapters against the Iewes of that time If after conference we shall find that our assertiō doth consent with Paules mind and doctrine and that the aduersaries are of the same minde and iudgment with the Iewes which liued in Pauls time then it shall plainly appeare that our iudgement is better then the aduersaries concerning the couenant of God Wherefore in this disputation of Paul we are to consider first the mind purpose of y e Apostle next by Pauls doctrine we shall gather what the opinion was of those Iewes against whom hee disputed this done we will applie both his and their assertion to our selues which liue in this age and to the doctrine conclusions which we maintaine concerning both these couenants By this means if it shall appeare that our doctrine is agreeable to Pauls minde and that our aduersaries follow the Iewes themselues being witnesses it shal I say be manifest that our iudgement is better then theirs in this argument To come then to the point Paul in that place to the Romans disputeth against those Iewes which were obstinate and peruerse defending first Christ and his merit which is the first ground of the couenant of grace next he disputeth for grace or the mercie of God which is the Paules disputation Rom. 1. 2. 3. Chap. second ground of the free couenant thirdly he auoucheth against those aduersaries that the couenant of grace was founded in Christ and in the grace of God fourthly he proueth the iustification of man and so consequently the saluation which is according to the couenant of grace he disputeth I say for these things first against nature which is the grounde of the couenant of workes next against the very couenant of works it selfe founded on nature thirdly against the iustification of man and saluation which is by it arising of the iust and good works of nature according to that couenant of works I graunt he doth expressely fight against that iustification and saluation which is by the works of nature required in the couenant of works and for the iustification of faith which is required in the couenant of grace but by one and the selfe same disputation he concludes both against nature and the couenant of works and for Christ and for Gods grace in him that is for the couenant of grace For the doctrine of antecedents must necessarilie be included in the doctrine of the consequent By this purpose of Paul we may see what was the drift of those aduersarie Iewes and what was their iudgment against whom he disputeth in the Epistle to the Rom. Those Iewes they on the contrarie part did striue for nature as being the ground of the couenant of works as also for the very couenant of works or of nature for iustification and saluation by works and according to the forme of the couenant of works They did I say contend for these things against Christ against the grace of God in Christ and against the couenant of grace and against iustification and saluation of men which is according to the couenant of grace Igraunt that as is aforesaid the question was of this last point which is iustification but this question includes al the former branches as is before shewed Wherefore let vs consider againe that old controuersie and the very ground thereof In this controuersie by the way note how great the The state and blindnesse of the Iewes in Pauls time blindnesse was of the Iewes of those times first they did not vnderstand that mans nature after the fall was lost as touching goodnes they saw not their own corruption neither were they touched with any sense of sinne or of their owne miserie Next they knew not Christ the mediator and the mercies of God in him Thirdly beeing so blinde in the premisses they could not conceiue also how that couenant of works was abolished in Christ Fourthly they vnderstood not that there was any couenant of made with man in Christ Iesus Fiftly they did not consider that those works of nature whereby they would be iustified according to the prescript forme of the couenant of works they did not consider I say that they were but duties only and testimonies of thankfulnes according to the first institution of that couenant but they did ascribe some meritorious vertue vnto them for which cause the Apostle disputeth against the workes of nature as against merits because of this blinde conceite of the Iewes And that they were of iudgement that these works were meritorious may appeare by their glorying in workes against which the Apostle speaketh often Where is then the glorying or reioicing it is excluded Ro. 3. 27. If Abraham were iustified by works he hath wherein to glory Rom. 4. 2. Not by works least any should glory Eph. 2. 9. For he which glorieth doth not deeme that he hath receiued that of God for which he glorieth and therefore he iudgeth it to be meritorious What hast thou that thou hast not receiued And if thou hast receiued it wherefore boastest thou as if thou haddest not receiued it 1. Cor. 4. 7. Thus farre of the question in controuersie which was betweene Paul and the old Iewes of his time concerning the couenant of God How like to this is that which at this day is controuersed betweene vs and the Papists We in this age conclude wholy for the onely merit of Our defence at this daie against the Papists Christ for the sole and meere grace and mercie of God in Christ for the couenant of grace for iustification and saluation by Christ only by grace only by faith only for all these Phrases serue to one effect we dispute I say for these things against the strength of nature the liberty of free-will that is the goodnesse and holinesse of nature against the couenant of works against iustification by works euen that which is according to the rule of the couenant of works The Romanists of this age defend that nature is holy in it selfe yet hurt impouerished and weakened for this is their freedome of wil they defend I say the couenant of works and the works which proceed Free-will from free-will Iustification by works of free-will meritorious also according to the couenant of workes for they say the ground of euery merit whether it be of congruitie or condignitie to vse their owne tearmes is free-will These things I say they striue to defend against Christ only and his merit against the only grace of God and mercie in Christ against the only couenant of grace against
in all succeeding ages God himself with his owne hand did first write in tables of stone the words of the Decalogue Next after this he gaue it in charge vnto Moses that he should afterwards write and record all things which hee receiued at Gods owne mouth and that the people of God might be assured that the bookes of Moses came not by mans will but were giuen by diuine inspiration the Lord sealed 2. Tim. 3. 16 and testified these writings to be his heauenly oracles by manie great wonders before they were written when they were written and after they were written And Moses wrote the Word of both couenants of both I say Legall and Euangelicall but whereas he gaue but as it were the first lineaments of the Euangelicall couenant he set forth the Legall couenant clearely and in full measure For the legall couenant in the bookes of Moses is cleerely recommended and vrged but the Euangelical more darkly set before vs. For which cause all the doctrine of Moses is said to be legall The Law came by Moses Ioh. 1. After Moses God stirred vp his Prophets whose writings also he confirmed with his great miracles and gaue them great authoritie yet were they not to set forth any thing diuers or contrary to the doctrine of Moses and the Patriarches nor to publish any thing but what was grounded in the bookes of Moses but by diuine reuelation they did ad more cleere interpretations as the morning starre of the new testament did more neerely approch These holy men wrote the summe and chiefe heads of their doctrine euen so much as God himselfe thought meete to be reserued for posterity And these records being written were laid vp with the holie books of Moses which were kept in the side of the Arke Iosh 24. 26. Finally after the incarnation of Christ the Euangelicall doctrine or the Gospell first beganne for certaine yeares to be deliuered by voice and to be preached by Christ himselfe and then after by his Apostles And lastly the same was written by the Apostles The works of Gods law and nature are commanded in the bookes of the new Testament And the verie moral law is expounded by Christ himselfe freed from the leauen and corruption of the Pharisees but the works of the law and nature are not recommended to the end that by them men might be iustified and saued but they be commended either to prepare men to intertaine grace offered or to quicken them to proceed and grow in grace receiued as is before shewed Againe the works of regeneration be commanded not for iustification but as testimonies of that iustification which is by faith and of thankfulnes vnto God for which cause so soone as the Apostle hath taught the doctrine of faith he descends to the works of the lawe teaching men that their life and conuersation must be worthie that high calling whereunto we are called in Christ Iesu See Ephe. 4. 1. 1. Thess 2. 12. But faith in Christ is that which is principally required in all the books of the new Testament And thus farre generally of the written word of the couenant CHAP. VII The number of the controuersies which are concerning the written Word and of the first controuersie whether the Scripture be the word of God THere be two kinds of controuersies concerning the holy Scripture The first kind is of such controuersies as bee more essentiall that is which concerne the very essence if I may so speake or being of the Scripture The second kind is of those controuersies which bee more accidentall and doe not so neerely concerne the essence of the Scripture Of the first kind there are ten controuersies or questions the first is Whether the Scripture Propheticall and Apostolicall bee the word of God The second is How it may appeare that this Scripture is Gods word The third is Of the antiquitie of it The fourth is Of the perspicuity or cleerenes of it The fift is Of the simplicitie or plainnesse of it The sixt is Of the viuacitie quickening power or life of it The seuenth is Of the simple euident necessitie of it The eight is Of the perfection sufficiencie thereof that it is sufficient and perfect in it selfe without all vnwritten verities or traditions whatsoeuer The ninth is Whether the Scripture may bee the iudge to determine all controuersies The tenth is Whether the Scriptures Propheticall and Apostolicall must haue the chiefe place of excellency and be in authoritie aboue the Church As for those eight controuersies which follow the two first they are touching the properties of the holie Scripture and these when we shall haue proued that the Scripture is Gods word will appeare euidently for they are necessary consequents of that Theoreme For grant we this that the Scripture is Gods word then these things must follow necessarily first that it is most ancient secondly most cleere thirdly most simple or pure fourthly most powerfull fiftly most necessarie sixtly most perfect seuenthly the greatest best iudge of all controuersies without exception eightly most excellent But for as much as the aduersaries denie these eight properties therefore as is a foresaid there is of euerie one of them a speciall controuersie We are then to handle these controuersies in order and first of that which by due right naturally is to haue the first place Whether the Scripture be the word of God The Aduersaries graunt generally that the holy Scripture is the word of God but when they are brought from the generall to a speciall they break from vs. To speake more plainely the word of God at this day is twofold in the Church of God 1. immediate 2. mediate I call that the Gods written word immediate word of God which doth proceede immediately out of Gods owne mouth and that I call mediate which the Lord speakes by his preacher or Minister We hold then and auouch that the holie Scripture is that immediate and primarie word of God and to bee vnto vs in steed of that first immediate and liuely voice of God himselfe yea that it serues vs in place not only of that liuely voice of God but also of the secret and insearchable mind of God and of Gods vnspeakeable mysteries Our arguments are these 1. For that this is the verie will of God They haue Moses saith he and the prophets that is the bookes of Moses and the Prophets Luk. 16. 29. 2. If we had nothing to supply the defect of the liuely voice of God then doubtlesse our state were worse then that of the old Church of the Iewes which had the oracles of God but it is against all light of reason so to Rom. 3 1. 2. affirme 3. Our third reason is this The first ground of our faith must be either the liuely voice of God or the verie mind and counsell of God or something to supply the want of Gods liuely voyce and of the secret mind of God which must also be
bookes of the Prophets partly by the spiritual euidence they carry in themselues which the Sons of God instructed by his holy spirit can easily discerne The Canonicall bookes of the Bible are either of the Old or of the New Testament The Canonicall books of the Old Testament are these 1. The 5. bookes of Moses 2. Ioshua 1. booke 3. The booke of iudges 1. 4. Ruth 1. booke 5. The bookes of Samuel 2. 6. The bookes of Kings 2. 7. The bookes of Chronicles 2. 8. Ezra 1. booke 9. Nehemias 1. booke 10. Hester 1. booke 11. Iob. 1. booke 12. Psalmes 13. Prouerbs 14. Ecclesiastes 15. The book of Canticles 16. Esaiah 17. Ieremiah 18. Ezechiel 19. Daniel 20. The twelue small Prophets The Canonicall books of the New Testament are these which are commonlie receiued 1. The Gospel according to S. Matthew 2. The Gospel according to S. Marke 3. The Gospel according to S. Luke 4. The Gospel according to S. Iohn 5. The Acts of the Apost 6. S. Pauls Epistle to the Romans 7. S. Pauls Epistles to the Cormthians 2. 8. The Epistle to the Gal. 9. The Epistle to the Ephesians 10 The Epistle to the Philippians 11. The Epistle to the Colossians 12. The Epistles to the Thessalonians 2. 13. The Epistles to Timothie 2. 14. The Epistle to Titus 15. The Epistle to Philemon 16. The Epistle to the Hebrues 17. The Epistle of Saint Iames. 18. The Epistles of Saint Peter 2. 19. The Epistles of Saint Iohn 3. 20. The Epistle of Saint Iude. 21. The booke of the Reuelation of Saint Iohn And whereas some haue doubted for a time of some of these bookes as of the Epistle to the Hebrues the Epistle of Saint Iames the last of S. Peter the 2. and 3. of S. Iohn the Epistle of Iude and the Apocalypse yet they were neuer vtterly reiected but for a time onely doubted of whether they might be accepted as Canonical These Canonical books of the Old and New Testament were written by holy men as they were moued by the holy Ghost 2. Pet. 1. 21. And of these some are called the Prophets which wrote the bookes of the Old Testament so called because they were gouerned by the spirit of prophecy Some be called Apostles so called because of their function these wrote the books of the New Testament The books of the old new Testament some haue their writers names expressely set downe or noted by speciall characters or signes some haue no names at all annexed whereby the holy Ghost would signify vnto vs that these men were but instruments onely and not the very authors of such books wherefore we be not so much to respect their names nor so busily to inquire after them if they be not expressed Thus farre of the Canonicall bookes Now as concerning the Apocryphall bookes they be so called because the Church would haue them kept hid and not to be read or taught publickly in the Churches the priuate reading of them was onely permitted The Apocryphall bookes are such as were found onely annexed to the old Testament and they bee eleuen in number 1 Iudith 2 Tobit 3 Esdras third fourth booke 4 The Wisedome of * falsly so called Salomon 5 Ecclesiasticus 6 Baruch 7 The Epistle of Ieremiah Apocryphall bookes 8 Additions to Daniel 9 The Prayer of Manasses 10 The two bookes of Machabees 11 The supplement of Hester from the third ver of the tenth chap. Among these some there are which the verie aduersaries account to be Apocryphall First the prayer of Manasses Secondly the third and fourth booke of Esdras Thirdly the third and fourth booke of Machabees wherof Athanasius maketh mention in his Synopsis But we are to proue that all these before named bee Apocryphall The first Argument is from the Writers All the Canonicall bookes of the old Testament were written by the Prophets But these were not written by the Prophets Therfore they be not Canonical but Apocryphal I proue the Proposition Luk. 16. They haue Moses and the Prophets that is the bookes of Moses and the Prophets Luke 24. 27. of Christ it is written that he began at Moses and at all the prophets and interpreted vnto them in all the Scriptures the things which were written of him Therefore Moses and the Prophets were the writers of the old Testament To the Rom. 16. He cals the scriptures of the old Testament the Propheticall Scriptures And 2. Pet. 1. 19. The most sure word of the Prophets And for the assumption But these were not written by the Prophets 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 I proue it Malachie was the last of the prophets and betweene Malachie and Iohn the Baptist there arose no prophet But these bookes were written after Malachies time and this cannot be denied of some as of Ecclesiasticus the books of y e Machabees Ergo. 2. ARG. This is from the language wherin all the canonical Scriptures were written They were written I say in the language of Canaan in the Hebrue tongue which was the speech of the Prophets wherein they wrote their prophecies But these bookes be not written in the Hebrue tongue but all for the most part in Greeke therfore our proposition or assertion is manifest The Assumption is euident that I shall not neede to cite either the testimonie of the Fathers or the aduersaries owne confession ARG. 3. is from the testimonie of the old Church of the Iewes If these books were Canonicall the old Hebrues had heard some thing of them But they neuer heard of them Therefore they be not Canonicall The Proposition is cleere I proue the Assumption In Ezraes time all the canonicall bookes were gathered into one volume and the Iewes care was such of them that they nūbred all the letters which were found in the Prophets set down the sum of thē how much more would they haue had care of these whole bookes if they had heard of them The 4. ARG. is from the testimonie of the late Church of the Iewes which was in Christs time If these books were canonicall then the latter Rabbins or Iewish Writers would haue accepted them but they did not receiue them but reiect them Therefore they bee not canonicall I proue the Proposition For out of all question if they had not receiued the Canonicall bookes Christ would haue taxed them for it for that he so reprehends them for their sinister and false interpretations of the Canonicall Scriptures The Aduersaries grant the Assumption The 5. ARG. is from the testimonie of Christ and his Apostles If these before named books were canonicall then Christ and his Apostles would haue cited them somewhere for confirmation of their doctrines but that can neuer bee found they did no not in all the new Testament therefore they be not Canonicall The proposition is manifest The matter it selfe will make sure the Assumption The 6. ARG. These Apocryphall bookes containe some things differing from the canonical scriptures some things contrarie some
doe this but to such a one as shall turne all the corruptions which are to be found in the old Latine edition into the vulgar tongue and so recommend the same to posterity This is Bellarmines iudgment and the Rhemists But we auouch the contrarie to wit that euery godly learned man skilful in the tongues may translate the Scripture without the Popes permission yea albeit he prohibit the same And that it shall bee lawfull for the Church of Christ to accept of the same translation after examination albeit the Pope giue none authoritie nor approbation hereunto For in the ancient Church when the authoritie or tyrannicall iurisdiction of the Pope was vnknowne the translations before specified were both done and receiued of the Churches without the Pope And thus farre of the first question It followeth in the second place whether the Leiturgie or common prayers of the Church are to be celebrate in a knowne tongue I meane the publike seruice or worship of God in ecclesiasticall assemblies as the publike prayers the reading of the Scriptures the administration of Sacraments singing of psalmes c. These be called by the name of * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 diuine seruice To the question we answer affirmatiuely that this publike seruice of God is to be done in the vulgar tongue Our first argument we take from the 1. Cor 14. where from the 6. ver to the 21. the Apostle teacheth that nothing is to bee done in the Church in an vnknown strange language But Bellarmine excepteth saying that in that chapter the Apostle vnderstandeth principally a collation exhortation which in the old Church followed after the publike prayers and to this end he sheweth out of * Apolog. 2. Note the order of the old Church on the Lords day Iustin Martyr the custome of the old Church The Christians assembled on the Lords daies and first the Scriptures were read then after this the chiefe minister of the place preached after this the Sacramēts were administred lastly they did vse conference of diuine arguments or of godly questions I answer the Apostle here intreateth generally of all ecclesiasticall duties and that in this order first ye haue a general doctrine from the sixth verse to the fourteenth Next there followeth a special instruction how prayers must bee conceiued how to sing psalmes not in an vnknowne tongue but in a knowne or common language to the ninteenth verse After this he returnes to his generall doctrine againe Bellarmine excepteth againe that Paul here speaketh of songs which in that meeting they sung which were endued with some extraordinarie gift of the holy Ghost I answer the Apostle distinctly nameth prayers songs againe he speaketh of those prayers and thanksgiuings whereunto the people did answer Amen now the people did not answer Amen but to the publike prayers wherfore he meaneth here publike prayers conceiued in the diuine administrations in the publike assemblies Bellarmine againe obiecteth The publike prayers at Corinth were in the Greeke tongue a speech wel known to the people and that the Apostle knew and therefore If in Greeke not in Latine there was no need to prescribe any such rules for their diuine seruice I answer albeit it be graunted that the common prayers c. at Corinth were done in the knowne mother tongue yet it followeth not but that the Apostles doctrine is generall of all Ecclesiasticall offices to be done in the publike assemblies Next it is most like that there were at Corinth some which had the gift of tongues which abused it to vaine ostentation euen in the publike administration and that is it which the Apostle taxeth in that Chapter And thus farre of the first Argument The second is of the same Apostle in the same chap. v. 6. If I shall come vnto you speaking with tongues that is vnknowne Argument 2. tongues what shall I profit you Hence I conclude the publike worship of God must be not in an vnknown but a knowne language Bellarmine answereth that hee which administreth the publike prayers in an vnknowne tongue shall profit others for it is sufficient that God vnderstand him And this he goeth about to cleare by a similitude Like as saith he if a man speake for a rustick or rude man ignorant in the Latine tongue in Latine to the king this shall suffice if the king vnderstand him to conferre any benefit by the king vpon the same ignorant person I answer what is this els but to say that the publike administration doth profit the people by vertue or merit of the worke done albeit in the meane time the Opus operatum people be without faith knowledge of the true God but of this in place appertaining The third Argument is of the same Apostle in the same chap. vers 11. He that speaketh vnto mee in a strange 3. Arg. tongue shall be as a Barbarian therefore the publike administration of the word and Sacraments and of all Gods worship and seruice must be in the vulgar and knowne tongue Bellarmine answereth that hee which speaketh Hebrue Greeke or Latine albeit he bee not vnderstood yet is he not to be reputed as a Barbarian because these tongues be not barbarous but if he speake in anie other language he is to bee accounted barbarous I answer If the speaker who speaketh in these tongues be not vnderstood he shall be to him that vnderstandeth him not as barbarous For so the verie Poet auoucheth it of himselfe When saith he he was in exile in Pontus he complaineth that albeit he spake Latine yet hee was accounted of those strangers as barbarous Barbarus hîc ego sum quia non intelligor vlli And when it was obiected to Anacharsis the Philosopher at Athens that he was barbarous he answered The Athenians are Barbarous vnto me The fourth Argument is of the same Apostle in the 4. Arg. same chap. ver 16. When thou blessest with the spirit to wit speaking in an vnknowne tongue how shall he that occupieth the roome of the vnlearned say Amen at thy thankesgiuing seeing he knoweth not what thou sayest Whence it followeth necessarily that all publike prayers and seruice of God must be done in the knowne vulgar tongue Bellarmine answereth that it sufficeth if some of the people vnderstand and answer Amen yea it sufficeth if he whō they call the Clarke say Amen for the people I answer this was not the custome of that old ancient Church which neuer knew what a Clearke meant My fift Argument is of the same Apostle in the same 5. Arg. chapter vers 40. Let all things in the Church be done decently and in order But if y e Minister shal pray in an vnknowne tongue and the people shall conceiue other prayers differing from the Ministers then shall the Minister in the publike congregation haue his prayers and euery one of the people his owne prayers also and not the same with the Minister What good decencie