be more and it was aproperty of the Evangelists office as distinct from the rest and extraordinary to be fixed to no place but to be fellow helpers to the Apostles 2 Cor. 8.23 Resp 1. Reader see how willing the Doctor is to catch at flies and observe the thing he quarrels at is no saying of mine but Chrysostomes on Eph. 4.11 qui occupabantur circa unum duntaxat locum ut Timotheus ac Titus he speaking before of Evangelists 2. For his Scripture being more to be looked after then his arguments 2 Cor. 8.23 Titus is Pauls fâ—llow-helper here he is not called an Evangelist nor was he but Pastor or Teacher in the Church with him onely 2 Tim. 4.5 Paul being to die bid him do the worke of an evangelist and before that time with Paul he never did it Paul in fellowship did that worke P. 7. Dr. Rule of the Schools is true quod Theologia Symbolica est argumenâ—â—tiva Resp Sir I despise not Learning nor the Schooles but the too much tying of men to the Rules of Schooles took away all knowledge and made men fooles heretofore I thinke no Scripture but is argumentive unlesse by the Scripture you overthrow my argument this is a fine way of Answering objections approved in the Schools but not in the Church P. 8. Dr. John's Ministry was medium quid inter legem Evangelium and made both one in that which was substanciall unto both Resp I approve of your learned distinction well which was in my Book made thus to your hand in English that he was not of Moses Ministry Mat. 11.13 nor of Kingdome Ministry ver 11. 2. But that he made both 〈◊〉 that is the Ministry of both one is a thing found out by long study in the Assembly who have found a way to make one two and two one as the Doctor in the Church and the Doctâ—r in the University to be meant in Epb. 4.11 as in your Propositions or for what end is it set there but to blind the world Dr. This is a silly weak Criticisme and there is more inferred upon it then it wil bear 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 differ only in modâ— the same word is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as it is publiquely declared in the name of God it is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and as it is declared to men that are ignorant thereof it is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 there is therefore no ground for a different administration for he that in respect of God is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in respect of men is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Resp 1. Sir If I did criticie it was not wilfully and so it may well be weakly but you do it over and over I do not tell you it is sillily done sure I am you have overdone it I am loath to shew you least you should be ashamed at it 2 Tim. 1.11 Paul is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 here lest you criticks of the Assembly should make the ministry without the Church and that within the Church one he puts the Apostle between to keep them asunder and prove them too 2. Here in respect of God he is not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is false Doctrine Mr Doctor the Apostle saith as Preacher and Teacher he was both in respect of his ministry to men onely and that in differing wayes of ministry the one before the Church ministry which began in the Apostles and ended in the Teachers so that my silly weak Criticism hath the strength of a Gospel truth in it and seemes to beat down your Antichristian Church administration Dr. The arguments which are taken from the order of words and names are of no force except the Scripture adde some Characteristicall note thereunto to expresse that it doth intend the order should be observed as in Eph. 4.11 it doth adde onely a note of distinction but in the 1 Cor. 12.28 it adds a note of order first second third and now Pastors and Teachers are not expressely distingished and from the other as the Apostles Prophets and the Evangelists are and whereas Eph. 4.11 Pastors are named before Teachers 1 Cor. 12.28 only Teachers are named and Evangelists and Pastors are not at all so that in the order of words there can be no great matter to ground such an inference upon Resp Mr Doctor you know my means is short so that I cannot be as large to satisfie the world or you as I would but thus briefly thus before you perverted the Scripture now you seek to take away the glory of it Sir the word is divine not only materialiter but 〈◊〉 formaliter and yet you dare say arguments are not to be taken from the order of words and then come to set Ephesians and Corinths one to oppose the other when indeed they both oppose you shewing you none but Apostles are of the first ranke and so are distinct from Prophets of the second for the third they are all Teachers among which the Evangelist is one with the Pastor and Teacher of which one is not more extraordinary then the other Sir pray see my Letters to the Assembly these are both at large and satisfactorily laid down in them 2. You observe the Pastors and Teachers are not distinguished by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as the Evangelists and Pastors yet you and the grossest Papists allow of Pastors and Teachers not distinguished but confound Evangelists that are is this of God in your Assembly P. 9. Now for an insertion laid downe in my Book that the Ministry without the Church is to be continued stil to prepare for the Church ministry Mr Doctor saith this consequence is so very weake that it deserveth no answer and the ground of it is taken away by what hath been said before Resp Mr Doctor hath quickly done with the businesse but I cannot but wonder that wise men should dally with the truth and deceive the world That Scripture 2 Tim. 1.11 will one day rise in judgement against some men of these dayes I pray look unto it well you that are concerned in it Dr. If a calling of men fitly qualified and setting them apart according to the word maketh men ministers then we have a ministry but the antecedent is true Ergo the Conseâ—ence Resp I denie your major first that your calling is not according to the word nor are you set a part according to the word nor are you members of a true visible constituted Church and so cannot be in that kind fitly qualified but of this pray see my book called The mistery of the Ministry Dr. Also the office of a Pastor and Teacher is undoubtedly ordinary and by his owne confâ—ssion it presupposeth a Church in which it is exercised hath not the Church continued ever since the Apostles Resp I would you would learn to confesse the truth also as I do but Sir though I confesse they are ordinary Teachers yet I confesse not
that they are so ordinary as to be any where but in a true visible Constituted Church only which hath or ought to have the Evangelist also in ordinary As to the Question I Answer there hath not been this 1240 year a visible Church in which rightly have been the true Church ministry and right Church constitution though there hath been an invisible Church through all the time in the world 1 Cor. 12.28 God hath placâ—d in the Church these but not out of the Church Dr. The warrant we have is a lawful call to the ministry the Apostle James doth forbid a masterly elusorious way of teaching as is clear by the whole sequel of his discourse Resp Sir The smoke of the Temple offends your eyes yet ye cannot see clearly your Church is no true Church nor that it is as you found the Antichrist of Rome leave it and is no better for its constitution then Rome's Church is Now such as your Church is your call is and such your ministry It is true Indeed James forbids a masterly Teaching and such is yours Sir for you Teach in the Church so by your single Ministry as you have no example in the Scripture for it As for James his Church Church ministry there spoke of was the same with yours not a company of Saints but adulteresses and adulterers Jam. 4.4 persecutors and blasphemers James 2.6 7. their tongues set one fire of hel ful of cursing and bitterness Chap. 3.6 9 and no where called a Church in his Epistle Sir it seemes the more I rub your eyes the worse the smoke troubles youâ— John's first Epistle was written to another manner of Society Dr. It is true Paul did all because every officer of a superiour degree hath authority to do the actions of the inferiour but where are we forbidden to teach must not a minister be chosen 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 1 Tim. 3.12 Resp 1. He did them all until the Church was constituted where he was but when he had others to Teach and labour with him he took not their worke out of their hands 1 Cor. 1.14 thus Peter Acts 10.48 2. That ye are forbidden to Teach without a lawfull call that is Anticristian 〈…〉 yeâ— you are forbid to Teach as you doe 2 Cor. 10.13 we that is Paul Silvanus Timothy 2 Cor. 1.19 in the name of the full Church ministry Paul saith we wil not boast of things without our measure 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Mr Doctor pray observe in one Church every minister hath a measure allowed him to Teach by which is laid out as by a rule of which in ministry every man is not to take what he wil as you do but God hath parted to each ministry his doctrine in the Church yea to the Apostles when they taught as ordinary Teachers and to those that taught with them to which Paul alludes 1 Thes 2.4 as we were allowed of God there is a Gospel allowance to Teachers what they should Teach and yet Bishops chosen by teaching that doctrine he was to be called to teach in the Church and not by others P. 10. Dr. Here is no mention of an Evangelist at all how then is it proved hence that he is a perpetual and assistant minister in the Church and if as he saith The Apostle doth speak here of publique Church Ministry and doth not name an Evangelist in it then the argument is strong against him that an Evangelist is not an ordinary publique minister Resp Mr Doctor seems profoundly to argue in this place against nothing pray consider it 1. That in this Scripture Rom. 12.6 7 8. is not mentioned the name of Prophet Pastor or Teacher which he cannot deny but yet are implyed here but because the Evangelist is not set down therfore he hath no place at all though the other may have having the Doctor 's leave 2. The Prophet in prophesy which was before him is implyed and the Pastour in his work of exhortation that comes after him and the Doctor in teaching is implyed And there is Ministry for one in the Evangelist's place but he must not be there unlesse he be set down an Evangelist though all teaching and his emmenter may be called Ministry Sir here cannot be understood any other Church-Teacher whatever nor your Church-Deacon or supposed Elder these follow in vers 8. in giving and ruling Sir I pray take heed of your taking too much liberty in making the Scripture speak against themselves if you forbear that I am sure they will not speak for you at all here Dr. This is a silly and irregular thought for how can a Church be constituted before God give gifts Shall we make Evangelists before God makes them All Pastors and Teachers are in a generall sent Evangelists that is publishers of the Gospel but not in a peculiar sent as he would have the Evangelist to be Resp Reader the cause of the Doctor breaking out into this silly cry is for that in my Book pag. 10. is written whereas the Apostle saith there be divers gifts from this Rom. 12. I think if ever a Church were rightly constituted greater gifts would be bestowed on men then since the Apostles 1. The Doctor understands not that God hath distinguished the Church gift from the Heavenly gift the Church gifts are called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which are given to men by the Church 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 according to the divine gift God had given them to minister the Church gift by which is the severall cals of the Church ministry Evangelists Pastors Teachers and thus indeed the Church is not to make before God hath made them but after 2. For what cause the Doctor troubles himself about Pastors and Teachers being Evangelists having before written of it and so few unworthy observations of a Doctor and up with it so often shews he wanted matter to object and that the man is mightily troubled about the Evangelist in his mind Dr. This Paragraph is to me a piece of nonsense for I knew not what he would say in it or how it is coherent with this former discourse Resp If the Doctor be silly as he makes himself I wonder he would take upon him in so unworthy a way to send down his notions in so secret a way to disgrace me and my writings privately amongst the ignorant multitude it had been more honour having been provoked to the presse or print to have published some worthy work in defence of their Presbyterian Government set out in the Propositions which I printed against or against that form of Church Government I added to it or prove their Government by the practice of the Primitive Church and disprove that in my Treatise of the resurrection of faln Churches and not in seeking to correct truth for errour in a Book make ten errours when he proves none but the not understood nonsense he talks of is in this The Church ministry is set out oft times by one word in
of qua distinct from the Aopstles Eph. 4.11 How sad a thing is it to see a Doctor so deceived are all the rest spoken of as distinct and doth he dream this is not see then if the Apostle hath in any other Scripture distinguished them if he seeth it not heer 1 Cor. 12.28 God hath placed in the Church first Apostles 2. Prophets see if God hath not distinguished them by a first and second This man would have confounded the Church Ministry mâ—king of two one with the men of his mind it is nothing to make all one 4. He tels us by foundation was not ment the Apostles but their Doctrine I having cited the text Eph. 2.20 this is clear enough expressed that it is the foundation of the Apostles not that the Apostles as the Papists say of Peter are the foundations of the Church there was no foundation for the Doctor to make this learned exception P. 5. Dr. The Church of the Gospel is built on the truths delivered by the old Prophets as is clear by Acts 26.22 Luke 24.27 2 Pet. 1.19 Resp To me it is much to see so grave a man fight with his own shadow for in this he hath not hit me at all I granted this in my Book which might wel have saved him his learned labour Dr. But the Prophets subordinate to the Apostles were no more founders to the Church then the Evangelists Resp For men of reputed learning and esteeme I see it is nothing to say any thing though never so clear against the truth Eph. 2.20 we are built upon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets I provoke you Mr Doctor to shew where it is said that we are built upon the Evangelists Dr. Titus was no where called Evangelist was he therefore none Resp Mr. Doctor How shall I believe he was if the Scripture say not of him he was one I am sure you have no Gospel makes him such that ever he wrote unlesse it be one lately brought from Rome Dr. What need Marke and Luke be called Evangelists seeing their worke doth speake them such Resp You may easily see Mr. Doctor is good at the begging of the question and passing by the matter objected viz. That the Evangelists office 2 Tim. 4 5. is a ministeriall Church worke and not a writing work as I have proved at large in my Letters sent to the Assembly and printed but not Answered because you have not leisure as in your Letters formerly you say concerning this Book Dr. The worke of an Evangalist is not only to Preach but to order matters by Apostolical direction Tit. 1.5 Resp 1. This then shewes your Evangelist was no extraordinary officer in the Church for what he did he did by direction as you and I should do in the Church were we faithful and no otherwise 2. In my forme of Gospel Government for Gospel Churches and in this book you so sift to find chaffe in I have allowed as well Government as Teaching to the Church Ministry according to Jesus Christ and you prove no more for Titus is not for this worke here or any where called Evangelist nor were any where else for that particular act Dr. Is not the writing the history of Christ's life the worke of an Evangelist and if Marke and Luke did this why should they not be called Evangelists Resp An risum teneatis amiei Mr Doctor if they did this why yet should they be called Evangelists unlesse you can canonise them for such by authority of the Presbytery that now is Doctor And is not the work extraordinary was it not indited and directed by the Spirit in Mark and Luke as well as in Mathew and John Resp M. Doctor When you wrot notes on my Book and had it communicated in that disgracefull way as this was I thought you had not vented your self into such like Quries as these 2. A man would have thought your reading would have taught you to distinguish between an Apostle and an Evangilist 3. I thought my former letter to you of this point would have made you blot out this dul notion seeing the Gospel you so much talk of Luke 1. was by him but a setting in order things believed amongst us as himself saith and not inspired into him ver 2. As they delivered them to us And here M. Doctor Who were these but Mark and Luke and then by whom but by eie witnsses which were it is likely Matthew and John with the rest of the Apostles and it may be said of the seventy of which Mark and Luke were not but had it from them that were as is plain and clear to him that is not blinded Doctor And is not the hystory of Christ a fundamentall truth of the Gospel Resp And M. Doctor The Amanuenses of many of the Psalms thâ— Prophets the Epistle of the Romans Tertius Rom. 16.22 were not made there by Evangelists yet are their writings not authoritative they being dictated to by the Apostles and Prophets P. 6. Dr. Rom. 10.15 From Esay 52.7 Is not to be understood of the distinct office of the Evangelist as he differs from the Apostle Prophet Pastor and Teacher but to Evangelize there doth comprehend all the testimony of Jesus in all respects but especially of the Apostles worke and if this be so then from the generall denomination of Evangelizing the distinct office of the Evangelist can be no more proved to be ordinary then from the generall name of Messengers 2 Cor. 8.23 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that the Apostolical Office is ordinary as Preachers are in some sense Evangelists viz. in respect of the glad tydings that they preach Resp That Evangelizing was applyed to the whole Gospel ministry I granted and thence proved that it was an ordinary Office in the Church yet to teach and apply peace with the good things of the Gospel to the strong men in Christ onely was the proper worke of the Church Evangelist to which Paul applieth that of 1 Cor. 1.17 he distinguishing the Teachers Ministry under the act of Baptizing who taught also and the Evangelists Ministry which Paul in Corinth as an ordinary Minister officiated with other his fellow helpers 2. For your parallel place 2 Cor. 8.23 I would you would take your Bible and see how God distinguished these Apostles from the others 1 Cor. 1.1 Eph. 1.1 Collos 1.1 Paul is an Apostle of Jesus Christ the Apostles 2 Cor. 8.23 are Apostles of the Churches Sir I may say to you of this as Christ to the blind Pharisees ye errre not knowing the Scriptures so that this Scripture proves not any hinderance to my conclusion as you seem to affirme but that thence it appears because the name is given in common to the ordinary Ministry it was but an ordinary office in the Church which oft as Pastors and Teachers to remaine therein to the end Dr. That Timothy and Titus were imployed only about one place is so directly opposite to Scripture that nothing can
ruling Elder is set up in the church and none before after this the Deaconesse and things concerning the Kingdom that is the church administrations were given them after Christs resurrection Act 1.3 by especiall direction P. 12. It was grosse when the word Church was only taken for your places of assembly c. Dr. The denomination of your place of meeting by the name Church when the continens is used pro contento is not incongruous but consonant to Scripture 1 Cor 1.18 with 20 22. Resp Sir it is incongruous for a man to quarrel with one agrees with him and to take the word Church in Scripture only for a meeting place is worse but I think I proved to your hand more clearly or Mr Mead for me that which you here assert in the same Book p. 56. from 1 Cor 11.22 But you were weary spending any more time and ink in the reading and correcting of this smoky piece and so left off before you came to the end and saw it not or rather you dare not deal with that as with this it comes closer to your coyned government Dr. Mixt Assemblyes do not make voyd the truth of the Church if Gods Ordinances be observed therein and the true Doctrine taught and received Resp 1. This is but your saying they do not it is little worth with those argue against you especially when it is against the truth 2. Your Hypothesis is drawn aâ— impossible for God's Ordinances cannot be observed in mixed societies 3. Shew me one church constituted of the Gospel constitution of a Nationall mixt society and I will shew you all others be the contrary constituted and more then 100 years after that were approved by approved Authors Pag. 12. There are to be three distinct Teachers in every Church Dr. It is not clear that these three are to be distinct and perpetuall in ordinary all this is said at random and without ground Resp 1. Sir it is as clear as Scripture can make them yet as clear as they are I cannot make your eies see them the smoke being on them take away the smoke and they will appear to be three distinct ordinary Teachers 2. That that was ordinary in the Apostles time that is to be ordinary in every true constituted Church for ever and it hath a Gospel ground but your single ministry hath no foot for a foundation from Christ but Antichrist you acknowledge Pastors and Teachers why have ye not them set up in your societies sure it will not suit with the constitution of your Church or with your profit or something Pag. 13. Galat 2.9 James is Evangelist Peter Pastor John Teacher Dr. These things are meer fancies without any proof from Scripture and altogether inconsistent with the Apostolicall charge Resp 1. Sir what means 2 Pet 5.1 where Peter calleth himself 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 If not that in some constituted Church he was joyned with others in the ministry 2. Sir in my Treatise of The Resurrection of faln Churches I have proved by the testimony of Tertullian Ireneus and others that the Apostles were the Elders of the Church of Jerusalem men whose testimony is to be received before all the testimony of the Presbyters living 3. Is it more inconsistent with these to do thus among the Jews in the Mother Church then with Paul to do these among the Gentiles 2 Tim 1.11 and with Barnabas Peter and Iohn with Philip at Samaria Act 8.14.25 and why not at Ierusalem â—r Doctor Pag 13. That the Gospel was preached in the Synagogue as to mixt multitudes Dr. These proofs are such silly inferences that it is tedious to reflect upon them and examine them they are even ridiculous Resp Sir you are not the first have made a mock at the truth of the Gospel their disputing and reasoning differâ—d from Church teaching as a work of the Catechist which when men were sufficiently wrote on were separated from the multitude to the believers society as in the Acts 18.4 7 11. and is a thing deserves more study then you are willing to spare about it because it is opposite to your present designs Pag 14. the second part of ministry c. L. 1. Dr. This doth contradict that which he hath been saying all this while his argument formerly taken from the order of words for if the Doctor be the second part of the ministry next the Evangelist then the Pastor is not the second to the Evangelist but these are groundlesse whimseys Resp In the end of the page before I shewed from the words of Christ Math 23.11 He that is greatest amongst you shall be your servant Where I observed Christ shews the Evangelists work was to make way for the Church constitution and so ministred to the Teacher and Pastor And when the Church came to be constituted and that there were men fitted for the Evangelists ministry then some other was constituted to do that work without the Church and the Evangelist did minister the perfecting ministry to the strong men in Christ in which work the Pastor is next him though in the other his ministry preceded the Doctor And this is the groundlesse whimsey which was the practice of the Apostles in their ordinary ministry Paul taught at Corinth before he baptized and then baptized and when the church is constituted he leaves baptizing and that ministry and Evangelizeth 1 Cor 1.14 17. Act 18.4 7 8. Pag 14. Of Iames and Iohns Epistle Dr. The difference of Iames and Iohns stiles the one reproving of vices and faults sharply and the other perswading powerfully to the improvement of grace is no argument of any such thing as he would have inferred that he was a Doctor to the Jewish church in particular But indeed these things are so weak and silly that they are not worth the answering Resp See how this silly man makes the difference of the doctrine to be only in the stile as if the condition of the persons required it not as if any man in that society and to that people Iohn taught might have taught that Doctrine and applyed there that Iames taught â—t è contrario Mark 3.17 was not Iohn as well as Iames the son of thunder Think you among the Apostles was no other conduct of spirit then in your confused Babylonish teaching See if any Epistle writ to any church be like this of Iames Shew any ground from Iames Epistle that it was written to a constituted church I think I shall shew you shortly 20. why it was not P. 14. The whole Doctrine is for Babes Dr. The Apostle writes to young Men and to Fathers as well as to Babes how then is the whole Doctrine for Babes alone but this is like all the rest Resp 1. The Apostle as Apostle had an extraordinary call to write to Fathers and young Men of the Church as wel as Babes 2. That he writes to these is contained all in chap 2. vers 14. Now what and how much of Doctrine
is the main work and the principâ—ll And this is all that the Apostle in the place doth intend and not to distinguish preaching and baptizing so as if they did belong to severall offices and administrations You do in this as in most of your other allegations rack the Scriptures and make it speak that which it never meant Resp 1. Mr Doctor At the close ends still with some Monstrum hor rendum intending that when this prog in the dark was carried up and down the Reader wherever he opened the Book and perused his notes should apprehend that and all the rest to be abominable stuffe without more looking after it as some of late formerly my Friends told some of my Congregation that the Mininisters made but a mock of my Books chiefly occasioned doubtlesse through the Doctors silly notes and notions 2. Whereas you say to baptize was not the main work for which the Apostles were sent nor for which ministers are appoynted I know none denies it But Mr Doctor the Question is where it were to be done or not 2. Where it were to be done but by ministers ordinarily that were sent or called to do it or not 3. The Apostle saith he was not sent to do that 1 Cor 1.17 that is ordinarily and then where others were not sent thereto the Apostle baptized few 1 Cor 1.14 16 and yet in Corinth Act 18.8 many hearing believed and were baptized Your Countryman Rutherford a man of judgment saith in his Treatise of Church-Government some other hence in Corinth did baptize beside Paul and can you think he did it in the same Church with him without Commission And did not this Commission he had in some kind give the Apostle cause to say being in ordinary Church-fellowship with the other he was not sent to Baptize but Evangelize and cals him co-worker with him working in the same Church Paul taught in prove the contrary if you can 4. I distinguish not teaching from baptizing but the Teachers by their administrations the Teacher teacheth as well as the Evangelist though not the same doctrine nor to the same people 5. The Apostle not I distinguisheth Evangelizing from Baptizing Baptism being a peculiar act of the Teachers ministry and in a especiall kind distinguishing him 6. If this were so common to all why did not Peter baptize the first Gentiles men that received the holy spirit but comand others to do it Aâ— 10.48 P. 28. In saying he was not the Apostle implyeth some are sent to baptize Dr. Do you think that any are sent to baptize and not to preach Mr Doctor have you my Book to read and do you ask that question Or did you send to Mr Ellis to answer you for me Do you find any such thing in all my Book Is not the contrary set down in many places Sir it seems you would beg me say so because you cannot make my Book do it Are things at this ebb with you Mr Doctor Dr. If the purpose of sending is primarily to preach and secondarily to baptize then the Apostle saith right that his commission was rather to intend the preaching work then the Baptizing of Disciples Resp 1. Mr Doctor What if this be not the purpose what then doth the Apostle say wrong it's 〈◊〉 no wrong to me if you say so of my writings if you are so saucy to say so of the Apostles but Mr Doctor we know your mind which is this That if the Apostles or any else say otherwaies then you would have them say they say wrong but when they say as you would have them say then they say right yea right or wrong 2. It was primarily to preach but it was to men without the Church before Baptism and secondarily baptize and yet Mr Doctor the Apostle is wrong in your sense 1. Here he speaks of Baptizing first as the first and Evangelizing after 2. This was to a Church constituted even Corinth and tended to perfect them after the Church admission in the faith of the Gospel being baptized already Dr. In your paragraph foregoing you say that baptizing was and the Doctrine of Bâ—ptism the Doctors work as appears Heb. 6.1 and why not the Pastors and the Evangelists or the Apostles do all that either of these do Resp Mr Doctor Your why not hath no cause in it why they yea or the Apostles themselves should do it ordinarily yet for these causes not 1. Because God for edification and order ordered it otherwaies 2. By a Gospel law God hath committed to each one his dispensation in his proper place Sir if a man had asked Moses why may not the Levites do that the Priests do the Priests do that the high Priests do would he not have said it was otherwaies in your pattern God will not have it so and what else could he have said for who hath been his Counsellour Dr. Heb 6 1. The fundamentals of the Doctrine of Christ are reckoned up and hath the Evangelist nothing to do with them to publish them I wonder at this weaknesse and at the whole sequel of this discourâ—e Resp Mr Doctor The Evangelist hath to do with them as a beleiver but to teach these to the society of strong men in Christ he hath not I do not know where you will say the Apostle saith right or wrong in saying so as you did before but so he saith Heb 6.1 Leaving therfore the word or Doctrine of the beginning of Christ let us be carried on unto perfection and after _____ Mr Doctor what is here meant by this not again laying the foundation if not that they were not to be taught again to perfect men by the Evangelists as they before had been by the Teacher to his babes P. 29. Nicodemus John 3.12 Dr. What although Christ doth speak of earthly and heavenly things in respect of the maâ—ter doth it therfore follow that he who teacheth the one may not meddle with the other These consequences are so senslesse that a man doth not know what to say of them Resp Mr Doctor See Joh. 3.3 1. There is mention of a man one that is in the condition of all mankind before regeneration meerly naturall 2. Regeneration is required of him as the means 3. Before this he cannot see the Kingdom of God in himself or in Church communion as the end for these are aimed at as â—n vers 5. is set out by water for the visible Kingdom or administrations of that Kingdom and then the Holy Ghost for the inward 1 In the former estate he is of the earth earthly as the first Adam was 1 Cor. 15.47 to whom Christ sheweth what that estate is and what is required to come out of it 2. In the Kingdom estate are Heavenly things ministred which Christ doth not minister to them not born again and shews why not because if they could not believe that Doctrine or teaching did so mediatly concern their state and condition how should they believe that concerned the
Dr DVRIE'S DEFENCE OF THE PRESENT MINISTRY Being compared with the Gospel and Gospel Ministry turnes into smoke and vanisheth As is made to appear in the ensuing Treatise By a Witnesse of the Gospel JOHN BRAINE Gal. 2.14 When I saw they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the Gospel I said to Peter before them all c. Printed in the Year 1649. To the Honourable the Committee of the County of South-Hampton The Learned Assembly at Westminster and the Godly and wel-affected of the County aforesaid TO you first of the Assembly I commend these things because you are they to whom the Supreme Authority of the Nation hath committed the care and judgement of these and the like differences that you may judge between us and make publike if you please your dissent from what is not of Gospel proof on either part To you the Honourable Committee aforesaid I humbly present these also that you hereby may see that by this or by the other cries of men of diffeâ—â— judgements Is â—â—â—â—â—e 〈◊〉 â—o be spoyled or wounded by you spoyled of that by your word and hand-writing you have for my Ministeriall labours promised me it being the life of me and my great family or wounded in my name who have lived though in weaknesse according to the testimonies of Christ and give me leave to mind you that of God That the labourer is worthy of his hire To you my faithfull and beloved friends of the Soake the City of Winton and County aforesaid I leave this as my loving remembrance to you advising you to beware of the secret practises of men against the Gospel as of works of darknesse and deep dishonesty in them that do them from whome and from which things keep your selves And 〈◊〉 Mr Doctor Durie I challenge a breach of promise who near twelve moneths since by letter promised me your notes on my booke and you contrary thereunto send my book and your bitter notes on it to my adversaries what hand you had in the private communicating of them I know not but leave to God Sir in obedience to Christ onely I have forborne to returne you railing for railing nor would I have you for this thinke I have forgot any good I have received from you but acknowledge the least thaâ—â—ulnâ—sse Sir I have not wronged you a word as I know in trâ—â—scribing your noâ—es they shall be compared with the Originall at your command bâ— any indifferent man Sir all that I have done herein is for the Gospel my dearesâ— friend for whome I desire to forsake all and althings and yet rest Gladly yours to serve you and al the forementioned according to the Gospel service of God John Braine To the Reader Reader THese Notes of Dr Duries I found written on the margent of a Booke properly mine owne being Intituled The smoke of the Temple cleared by the light of the Scripture lying one Shop-keepers Table where I live which I taking away with me was after sent for to make appearance before two Justices of the County aforesaid who were desired to grant a Warrant to apprehend me Fellon-like therefore but honestly refused it who after on my appearance because I would not surrender the said book chosing rather to obey the Law passively in that point then actively I was and now stand ingaged to make appearance at the next Quarter-Sessions to make Answer before the Bench for thus illegally seizing on my owne proper goods being a book sent Mr Doctor upon his sending to one Mr Ellis for him to call on me to send him one of my Books as the said Mr Ellis told me and not give him one nor was it by me given now that this onely câ—uâ—â— aforesaid must he taken in the businesse I thinke cannot but seem strange to all that read it These Notes made in answer to the Doctor by me were of two dayes making which will plead for their imperfection for thy better understanding the Treatise the letter P. is put for what page of the Book called The smoake of the Temple c. the Doctor drew his observation from and the Scripture added to it shews the ground the Doctor drew his assertions from which I doubt not but will clear many things in Scripture hid formerly to the world and prove profitable to all that read them by beeing compared things with things But to come to the Doctors observations themselves he passeth by the three first pages as having nothing to object and begins with page 4. striving if he had strength enough to remove the Evangelist from his owne into anothers place and so I leave him to his lift and triall of his strength who may as soone by help of a leaver role the round world out of his place as the Evangelist out of his and sooner too so unable is man found to be when he strives against Truth Luke 16.29 compared with Eph. 2.20 P. 4. Doctor WHat is here said of the Apostles is appliable unto Evangelists Resp 1. This is petitio principii or a begging the thing in question Mr Doctor You would have it so 2. The Scriptures were given by Divine inspiration to the Apostles and Prophets but not the ordinary Evangelists 3. Nor are the Evangelists to be proved as the Apostles are to be in any extraordinary way in the Church God in 2 Ephes 20. saith the Apostles and Prophets are of the Foundation but not Evangelists Dr. I say those Prophets who were before Christs time are properly to be understood Eph. 2.20 because they were the foundation upon which the Church was built as appears by Acts 26.22 2 Pet. 1.19 yet I hold that the Prophets which are named Eph. 4.11 are distinct from those Antient ones these are not the foundation of the Christian Church but these were the Apostolicall office 〈◊〉 doth ementer 〈◊〉 comprehend these but not these for these were before the Apostles nor are the Prophets named Eph. 4.11 qua distinct from the Apostles but if at all they are to be â—united the foundation it is onely as in and under the Apostolical office Then besides by the foundation of the Apostles and the Prophets is only meant the doctrine Apostolical and Prophetical whereof Christ is the substance that is the one corner stone and is it not so also in respect of the Evangelists Resp 1. For Answer to this confused masse take my owne words in my Book by Prophets I understand not only those wrot before Christs time but those wrot since also 2. Whereas he saith The Antient ones are not the foundation of the Christian Church It is clear the Prophets before Christ are in the same way a foundation to the now Church as the Prophets that were since 1 Peter 1.12 Not to themselves but to us saith the Apostle speaking to those under the Gospel administrations they did minister these things in a Church administration only they were not in this time 3. He saith The Prophets are not spoken
estate of Saints only Mr Doctor methinks this should clear your eies of your confused Antichristian way teaching if you teach the Gospel estate of an Evangelized Saint your unregenerate Church-members are never the better ipse dixit how shall they believe them Here as in a glasse ye may see the ground of your unprofitable teaching yet let Christ say what he will you will teach so P. 29. 2 Tim. 4.5 Doe the work of an Evangelist Dr. The place of Timothy is perverted and rack'd beyond the Apostles puâ—â—â—se for the Apostles meaning is not to signifie anâ— such thing as is here inserted but only that Timothy by being sober and watchfull and painful in the work of the Gospel should give unto all a ful assurance of the truth of the Gospel whereof he was a minister 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which is here required is the same whereof the Apostle speakes after vers 17. where he saiâ—h that Gods assistance of him in his suffeâ—ings made the preaching fully known and gave to all an assurance of the truth thereof so then to make a ful proof of the miâ—istry is nothing else but to approve ones self to the conscience of all by a true and faithful carriage of oneâ— selâ— in the charge You do here as in all other places almâ—st you take hold of a word and run away with it to apply it to your fancy and draw consequences from it and never look to the Apostles scope Resp 1. Your beginnings and endings oft times are like you cry out of racking Scriptures let the Reader judge of whom the Scripture cry out of racking most you or me and who perverts them most all that you say is meant in the Scripture every word but not any such thing as I affirme ideots that cannot try you must trust you but men of judgement and understanding wil the sooner mistrust you Sir you are as errour wrapt up in truth's Cloak let that be once taken from you and you will cozen no man more 2. The maine thing in the text is that Paul bids him do the worke of an Evangelist which before he had not done in his former Ministry if he had why doth Paul give him a charge to do it now and then backs it with this of make full proof of the ministry or bear the ful ministry now you leave out and say not a word of that which contained the mattter it self and run to a story very impertinent to the thing in hand 3. But that the Reader may understand you the better the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 relates to the Evangelical office here in this verse and that in verse 17. hath respect to verse 6 7. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which shewes with that ver 17. that he had done by his Ministry what God had ordained in this world for him to do and no otherwaies applying to Numb 8.24 this is that belongs to the Levites from 25 years old and upward It is they shall enter into the Militia quasi bellatores in service c. Sir I have heard it reported that you had that honour to be chosen the man to reconcile Lutherans and Protestants If so sure you will never have the honour to bring the Presbytery to the Gospel Government which would be greater honour by far unto you P. 30. Heb. 6.1 The Evangelists office is higest and distinct from the Doctors Dr. The Apostle doth indeed distinguish between the fundamental doctrine and the doctrine of perfection shewing that he would speak of matters which did require more higher capacity and greater attention then these first principles did stand inâ—eed of he speaks of the difference of things to be taught Resp Thus far Mr. Doctor is forced to confesse and assigne to truth there is a necessity it s so plaine every eye may see it Dr. But now of different offices and officers of Teachers Resp What not Pastors and Teachers if no Evangelists Mr Doctor you will thus overthrow your Presbyterian building Dr. For he speakes of himself as Teacher of both only that in respect of time and different capacities the fundamentals were to be taught first and the superstructures afterward Resp If you observe Mr Doctor well he is almost come home the Apostle as an extraordinary officer may do all the parts of the Ministry but in doing them he did observe time and the Capacities of the peoâ—le that is in the infancy of Christians he taught as a Docâ—â—r giving milke and when to be of stronger capacitie to give them stronger meat tâ—e fundâ—mentals â—n order being to be taught first and the superstructures afte ward O that M. Doctor would or could shew us this Gospel way in practise amongst the Prâ—sbyâ—eâ—â— oâ—â—ut us in hope when it will be Dr. But from hence nothing câ—n be â—â—â—â—â—ted â—hich here you would serue out of it viz. That here should be a dividing â—f the Ministry to these severaâ— works as â—f one and the same man here is Mr Doctâ—â—â—â—â—aven all is like to be lost why pray let it go for Christ and the Gospel Mr Doctor should not intend both in resâ—ect of several hearers the same Ministerial work in the Paâ—toral and Doctoral charge is to apply it selfe to the young and old in catechetical exercâ—â—es to â—he 〈◊〉 and Prophetical exercises to the other Râ—â—p 1. What Mr Doctor nothing your self have inserted much â—ut hath Goâ— set up in the Church differing Ministries Eph. 4.11 and to these are there appointed several administrations 1 Cor. 12.5 and then several capacities accordâ—nâ—ly and yet I need to shew you away to screw them hence if they be clear in other Scriptures elsewhere againe these administrations are for severall works or operations 1 Cor. 12.6 and thus Mr Doctor your scruples about this all-along moved are satisfied if you are by clear Gospel truth satisfiable if not I must leave you to God 2. See how Mr Doctors Bels hang together here is the Pastoral and the Doctoral charge here are several hearers and these hearers of several capacities yet for to uphold a single Ministry one man must do it all 3. Mr Doctor had forgot the Hebrews were a Church society that were here wrot unto Heb 3. partakers of the heavenly calling brethren and holy brethâ—eâ— Heb. 12.22 and 5.12 and doâ—h Mr Doctor read that in the first 200 years of Ch ist the Catechist did at all Catechize men within the Church and baptized as these were who would thinke Mr Doctor were so deluded P. 30. Must not repentance c. Dr. This Quest and Resp to it and all the following discourse upon it it is to me so confused intricate that I can make no sence of it nor hath it any coherence with â—hat which the Apostle doth aime at in the place nor is it worth the consideration it is so silly and so weake Resp I wil not open these things but refer them to the Reader to judge where
the Doctor could not understand it or rather would not as being a fine way of evasion it had been his wisest way to have done thus with all that he could not obâ—ect against which is materially against him as the rest P. 32. 1 Tim. 3.14 Dr. This place is neither rightly alledged nor applied rightly to the Apostles scope Resp The former part of the words were not truely Printed the latter which hath that which was intended are rightly obtained to themselves a good degree in the house of God which was to shew that any office in the house of God was of great honour and men should be content with any therein though the lowest P. 34. Heb. 14.17 Dr. The Apostle writes to all the Hebrews in the world Resp Mr Doctor how doth this appear I wil not take your word for it was Heb. 5.12 said to the Jewes of all the world or chap. 12.22 Dr. These had many leaders in several Congregations and he desires them respectively to be subject to them that is that each Congregation should submit to â—â—â— r â—wn Resp Mr Doctor Doth Paul write as John to the seven Churches or Peter to the dispersed in Galatia Capadocia c. that you dare affirm this you doe on these tearms and at last for your parochiall liberty or all were lost Doctor From hence you will infer because the word Leaders is in the plurall number that every congregation hath many leaders which is very weak Resp From whence shall I inferre but from the Scriptures James 5.14 and I provoke you to shew in all the Scripture where the whole Church Ministry are spoken of of any Church and are not set down in the plurall number and M. Dr. to say they should be in every Congregation is a conclusion of your own and none of mine I say in every Church as for the weaknesse of it I know it is not the weaker for your blowing on it But M. Doctor What think you of Acts 14.23 they ordained them Elders in every Church 1. these not Nationall Churches 2. Nor were they Elders ordained Doct. Then you say that these leaders are to be meant by the ministring officers and not ruling Elders by verse 7. but that verse doth speak of those that guide and rule _____ and no ruling Elders should be no others then such as are able to speak the word on occasion nor should those that speak the word be without a guiding and ruling authority for the leading is to be according to the word and by it which makes the Doctor and the Pastor to be the same Resp Mr Dr. the _____ are all here spoken of either ruling Elders or teaching Elders I speak according to your own distinstion but that they are teaching and not ruling Elders verse 7. They have spoken to you the word and for that conceit that the ruling Elder should be such 1. I require you to sâ—ew me the constitution of ruling Elders 2. The command or practice that any was to or did do such a thing if not Sir you doe but undervalue your selfe to write such things at all 3. You come with your old device and find away out of this text and every text to make the Doctor and Pastor â—nâ— but let me mind you if by divine institution they are two you wrong the truth and your self and the Church also to make them one and here spoke of as of diverse persons Sir I shall ingeniously confesse that of all the books I ever read of my little reading I never read any man that endeavoured to make Pastor and Teacher one as you have all along done and altogether opposite to the truth yea the Assembly propositions Adeo dat Eph. 4.11 the two last ordinary and perpetuall that is the Pastor and Doctor Wollebius Pastores Ecclesiis Doctores Scholis Praefecti Eph. 4.11 Arminius disp Theol. Corrol 59. mâ—diate vocati Pastores Doctores Episcopi Praesbyteri qui certis Ecclesiis sunt praefecti Calvini Just lib. 4. cap. 4. ex ordine Praesbyterorum partim eligebantur Pastores Doctores Bilson Vide Zanch praecep 4. cap. 19. and the Churches practice in New-England Pag. 35. People Ministers and ordinary ministry Doct. O these allusions and applications are no proofs of the point Resp which Dionysius they are as I have since the writing of my book read to good satisfaction and many more of the Antients though the Doctor saith it is nought P. 35. That the man of God may be perfect 2. Tim. 3.16 17. Doctor This perfection is the end and effect of the foregoing usefulnesse of the Scripture and from thence is to be inferred that by the Doctors and Pastors office rightly used the man of God will become perfect Resp M. Doctor Why do ye not adde the Evangelists offici you may as well for the Doctor nor Pastors office is not rightly used in your Presbytery but these rightly used with the Evangelist through the effect and usefulnesse of the Scripture make the man of God perfect Doctor And therefore none other distinct office in ordinary is requisite to infer because the word perfection is here used that therefore an Evangelists office is intimated as a meer fancy Resp 〈◊〉 Doctor 〈◊〉 Pastor is not mentioned yet they are allowed but there is no allowance for an Evangelist an ordinary Church-minister no less of God intended then the rest but is still cast off by Mr Doctor for and with the reproach of fancy notion whimsy P. 36. Evangelized Christian man Doctor What this Evangelized Christian man is distinct from him that is taught and governed I know not neither do I believe you can shew Resp M. Dr. As in Adam so in Christ there are differing statures you may being a rationall man understand the one by the other now as he differs in stature from children so should the administrations differ that are administred in the Church to him accordingly 2. That this Evangelized Christian should differ from one taught and governed by the Gospel is a conceite of your own and none of mine P. 26. 1. Doctrine is not for all but babes only 2. Exhortation for young men only Evangelical ministry for perfect men only Doctor Is not the teacher and the exhorter a Gospel minister this is a fancy indeed which hath no ground Resp Mr Dr. See Rom. 12.6 7. Prophesie is for the Prophet ministry for the Evangelist Teaching for the Teacher exhortation for the exhorter and is not the exhorter or teacher a minister in this place and is not this a fancy the Apostle speaks in this place or what saith the other then said before P. 36. 1 Cor. 4.1 Of that men are Ministers they are stewards onely the Dr. of doctrinall part the Pastor of the pastorall c. Doctor Is not the doctrinall of the Evangelicall part of ministry Resp The Gospel ministry is Evangelicall all but is divided into three parts by God in the Gospel one being not more Evangelicall then the other Doctor Why do you leave out the practicall which is the Pastorall charge Resp It s well you are so sensible as to misse one in my writing you doe not miss two in your Church one is enough you know not what to doe with any more but see Mr Dr. 2 Tim. 1.12 puts down Apostle the first of the Church ministry and Dr. of the last and under these comprehends the rest and will you not allow me this if not I will take it Dr. There is no more requisite but faith and obedience which two are wrought out by the doctorall and pastorall administrations what use is there of this Imaginary part of the Exangelist distinct from both Resp Mr Dr. Faith and obedience are ministred under Teacher Pastor Evangelist one as well as the other according to the capacity of those are taught each one by degrees perfecting Faith and Obedience in the Saints the Doctors Teachers faith and obedience to Saints as children the Pastor as young men the Evangelist as strong men and not as the Doctor dreams one teacheth faith onely the oâ—her obedience Thus the Dr. having done with my book I have done with him untill he please to rejoyn and begin again only this I commend to thee Reader that that which followeth in my Book did more particularly strike at presbytery which the Doctleft to some other to do or to some other time to do or afraid it may be it would trouble his mind to study it or what ever it was he thought he had done enougâ— in this for once and so have I at this time Vale. If thou hast any knowledge of thâ— truth of the Gospel hereby at all FINIS