Selected quad for the lemma: doctrine_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
doctrine_n	apostle_n	church_n	teacher_n	2,224	5	8.9443	5	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A00639	A defence of the reasons of the counter-poyson, for maintenance of the eldership against an aunsvvere made to them by Doctor Copequot, in a publike sermon at Pawles Crosse, vpon Psal. 84. 1584. VVherein also according to his demaunde is proued syllogisticallie for the learned, and plainlie for all men, the perpetuitie of the elders office in the church.	Fenner, Dudley, 1558?-1587, attributed name.; Stoughton, William, fl. 1584, attributed name.; Jacob, Henry, 1563-1624, attributed name.	1586 (1586)	STC 10772; ESTC S112582	18,117	32

worthie of honor an other euil whiche take no paynes worthie of no honour So that this hauing no degrees of comparison which are manifestly expressed in S. Paules words can not so much as resemble the sentēce of the Apostle much lesse interpret it His meaning here peraduenture is as after that al that do it wel shal haue double honor but they especially who take yet more paines in doing it well This his meaning hath two fowle spots in it as faire as he would make it The first is against the rule of reason because he beggeth the question for to proue his denial of the cōclusion of our reason he bringeth this meaning of his which is the question we dispute about The second fault is against plaine dealing in interpreting the scripture that in two respects one is in interpreting ruling well or being ouer others well by preaching well Which is to interprete the generall by the especiall If he say one may do so where there is a Trope or an vnproper speache he must firste proue by euident reason out of his text or other scripture that there is a Trope else he seeketh a knotte in a rushe Besides this a figure can not stande here because the Apostle doth specifie the general of being ouer others into the speciall of being ouer also in doctrine so that he can by no meanes enter here vpō such an vnproper speache but must be content to reade ruling wel ruling wel not teaching well After this straunge interpreting before this new coyned meaning carying the very stampe of the Iesuites enter he must not without great blame if he look not to it adde to the wordes of the Apostle For all the force of his interpretation standeth vpon an addition to the wordes of the holy Ghost which is to make him say he that taketh more great paynes then they whiche preache well All whiche wordes more then others which doo it well are neither in the Apostle in expresse wordes nor in any of like force to them neither hath he or can he With any Syllogisme conclude it out of his wordes If he can let him shewe his cūning The worde Copiazein whiche signifieth to take great paynes will not here helpe him For it doeth not include a comparison with others For it is common to all Elders much more good preachers For the Apostle in makinge cōparison saith en copois in labors more aboūdant and so by adding the worde of cōparison to it sheweth it is not conteyned in the very word it self In his answere to the thirde reason where he made three sortes of Preachers and euen those that doo it not wel worthie of some honor for defence he sayth he seeth not why such as take paines may not haue an honor such as is dew to Widowes Wherin first he trifleth fleeing frō the matter in hand to another For he should haue proued that his interpretatiō gaue not a single honor to some whiche did not preache well Secondly he is contrarie to him selfe Before he saide here were vnderstood only two sortes of Preachers good and euill after he saide good and excellent Now three sortes are vnderstood single ones such as may haue the honour of Widowes double ones such as may haue double honor and treble ones which may especially haue double honor Wherefore as the Author of the Counterpoyson said before so I say againe this is dallying not interpreting And What soeuer he saye this Discipline of his is dissolute ●or if men preache well they are worthie of double honor whiche is more then the Widdowes honour if oteerwise they are worthie as he saide before of none His answere followeth to the last reason out of Roma 12.6.7 Where the Elder for gouernement onely is made a proper member of the church differing in his proper action from the Teacher Exhorter Distributer And out of the 1. Cor. 12. where God is saide besides all other ministeries and giftes to haue ordeyned gouernours in his Church wherevnto he saieth he denieth the argument there were such then therfore there should be such nowe Because as M. Gualter saieth We must first proue they haue such giftes of prophesying doing of miracles and diuers such like as are there mentioned To all which we replie first with thankes that hee yeeldeth to the trueth graunteth that such were ordeyned of god In the second place we wil proue they are perpetuall and then that it is vnreasonable to demande of vs to proue that now they haue such giftes as he speaketh of We mainteyne out of these places that they are perpetuall First because they are members ordeyned of Christ hauing actions for the profit of the whole body For vnlesse he can proue God hath repealed them who shall cutt them off from the body Secondly the Apostle in the 12. to the Rom. reckoneth vpp none but perpetuall as Teachers Exhorters Rulers Distributers Nowe him selfe I dare say will acknowledge the giftes of doctrine exhortatiō abilitie to distribute gouerne with the actions proceeding from thē to be perpetual still necessarie If thē the proper actions as the Apostle there speaketh of the members be perpetual shal the members be momētarie Doth Christ now giue doctrine exhortation gouernement and not Doctors Feeders and Gouernors Or doeth he giue teachers for doctrine and not gouernours for gouernement Further if the Churche daily need these for gouernement and seeke orderly for them and yet haue them not howe is Christ present with his Church to inable her to doo all he commaundeth In the seconde place doeth not S. Paul say he hath set gouernors in his Church Howe can any man set them out then They will saye hee saieth there also hee hath sette Apostles which yet are not perpetuall It is true there are mentioned also teachers and helpers whiche are perpetuall So this obiection ministreth vs occasion of a double reason the one by equal comparison as the teachers office whereof the gifte necessitie is perpetuall for that cause remayneth and the Church ought continually to call for men which are fitt for it because God hath set them in his Churche So for the Elders office seeing their giftes of watchfulnes abilitie to admonishe and to aduise and gouerne doeth remayne the Church is continually to cal mē fit for the same office into it because God hath set them in his Church Further as no authoritie of men could haue remoued the extraordinarie vnlesse God had denied their extraordinarie giftes and calling so no man can remoue these where the giftes remaine an ordinarie way of examination election doth remayne for their calling Thirdly the Apostle writing vnto Timoth. doth giue as general a charge for this sort of Elders and their continuance as for the other whiche are ●●aching therfore if you cā proue one perpetual you may also proue the other to be so likewise For the precepts for their honor their reasonable immunitie from

were fallen away doeth complayne of it and doeth make the cause of their falling awaye not because they were not perpetual nor yet because they might not continue but the negligence and pride of the teachers Nowe that wee haue proued that hee required of the perpetuitie of these offices lett vs come to his reason why he denieth them to be perpetuall whiche is because wee can not firste proue the Elders to haue such giftes of prophecying dooing miracles c. But wee bidde him proue firste this strange and monstrouse assertion that it is necessarie for vs to proue it Secondly we will shew him the vanitie and detestable absurdities which folow this his demande The vanitie may appeare by these reasons out of the text The gouernours and the gift of gouernement are as much distinguished frō Prophetes doers of miracles as they are from teachers therfore to require such necessarie for gouernement more then doctrine is to ouerthrowe the purpose of the Apostle which is to shew howe euery office hath his seueral proper gift Secondly if the vse of such giftes as he speaketh of be no part of gouernemēt what necessitie is there of thē in Elders as they are Elders Thirdly we demaūd of him whether he require these giftes in al Elders or in some in whom he doth require thē whether he would haue all those giftes to be in them or some only If he require them in all he must proue first that they were in al the Elders in the Apostles time which he shall do ad graecas kalendas that is neuer If he require all those giftes in any let him proue that any Elder was furnished with them al which he shal neuer do If some only let him shew whiche are necessarie and which not And let him out of the scripture proue his saying and we will yeelde Thus we haue seene the vanitie of the demande marke the absurdities following First that they make themselues wiser then the Apostle who requireth no more in the dutie of an Elder then to be ouer the flocke with diligence Rom. 12.5.6 Secondly they require more in the Elders thē the Apostle required in a teaching Elder or a Bishop when he giueth the rule of his examinatiō 1. Tim. 3. Thirdly they may by the same rule throw out teachers seeing in this place the Apostle giueth such giftes no more to the Elders then to the teachers especially this consequence is necessarie because the principall ende of those giftes being eyther to deliuer doctrine or giue credit to it is more necessarie for the teacher then the gouuernor Fourtly seeing they vnderstande by Elders those who preach and will haue none gouerning only it remaineth that by his reason we must first proue those giftes to remayne in them eare we can proue such to remayne Lastly seeinge these giftes were cōmon to priuate persons yea to women euen to all sortes of beleeuers we must first proue by their reason these giftes to remaine eare wee can proue there be any church or faithfull men in the world These are the detestable absurdities which followe vpon this reason of theirs wherby the answer to it is euidēt that the Apostle setteth down there both offices as Apostles Teachers Prophetes Elders Deacons and also some giftes which were cōmon to all as ornamentes to confirme for a time Christian Religion Now althogh these giftes are long since ceassed yet the offices may remayne without them especially the offices of teaching exhorting gouerning which are for their vse the giftes required in them perpetual euery part of which answere hath bin before cōfirmed in the particulars Hitherto he hath labored against the trueth to ouerthrowe it Nowe fearing that all the instrumentes he had would not throttle the cause so as she should no more open her mouth hee seeketh to disguise her with a slaunder Where we will first see what he bringeth then we will mainteyne the contrarie The summe of that he obiecteth is they which stande for Discipline are thought to bringe in contention and to vndermine the power of the Magi●trate In this accusation first you must well obserue hee doeth not nor dareth not say it is so but that it is thought so To which it may be answered that it is thought that the other side seeke to driue out the sufficient ministerie that they alone may reigne pille the people af her Maiestie abuse thē grind them without hauing any of their filthines discouered It is thought of some also that they make a way to Atheisme Poperie and all confusion whylest they thrust our so many worthie and paynfull laborers out of the L. Vineyard and bring in ignorant vngodly riotouse idle and couetous persons in their steede Nay some of these are not onely thought but manifestly by experience in manye places felt Secondly you may obserue howe the light of his conscience stroue with his affections against the cause His affection and desire was to disgrace the cause it self as preiudiciall to the peace of the Church and ciuill Magistrate Now When in his cōscience he found he could deduct no such thing out of the matter of Discipline hee turneth from the matter to the persons and sayth they are thought so to do Why doth he not shew who they be that so thinke of them vpon what groundes by what signes and tokens by what counselles writings examples or deedes they haue giuen likelihood of it If hee can neither conclude any suche matter out of the cause it self nor proue any thing against the persons which seeke it How Is it not the maintenance of a malitious slaunder We haue haue harde what he sayth will he adde no ground of it Yes An admonition to Scotlande printed An. 1558. cōteineth cōclusions as straunge against the Estate as D. Sanders that traytors booke doth What doth it Doeth it conteyne flat treason that the Prince by any Ecclesiasticall power may be deposed or resisted That the Queens most Excellent Maiestie is an heretike or receyueth not Discipline and thetefore must be excommunicated and after accounted no lawfull Queene Hath any fauouring Discipline writtē these things or the like If he can not shewe any such thing what is he but a Preacher of slaunders at Pawles Crosse The booke he speaketh of to my knowledge I haue not seene neyther knowe where to haue it Yet I assure my selfe he can bring foorth no suche conclusions from any which hath spokē or written for Discipline But be it that some one man had written without ground or reason contrarie to the scriptures shal that or any mannes abuse blot out the credit which so many Churches in France Scotlande Germanie the lowe Countries hath brought to it as finding it holy peaceable and no small pillar both of the peace of the Church and ciuill gouernement When we consider what inconueniences followe any matter we must not consider what some whiche hold the cause would haue but what the cause of his owne nature will inferre For as the good meaning of a good man will not make a perilouss cause safe so the ill meaning of a noughtie mā will not make a safe and iust cause dangerouse I maruaile what cause may be found out to make Discipline hurtfull to the common wealth or what reason why the Magistrates authoritie and it shoulde not dwell peaceably togither The Kings and Rulers of Israel found it not so The Romanes after them found it not so they being Heathen more curious to looke into suche matters then any more ielouse more politike most ielouse ouer the Iewes of all others because of the King which they looked for to come in worldlie glorie could neuer yet finde out any such suspition In all their times it was quietly practised The Kings and Princes both Protestant which haue allowed it and popish as in France which haue permitted it they haue founde no such thing in it For the seconde point By what reason should the Magistrats authoritie be at such enimitie with Discipline or discipline with it Is it because the Magistrat will or can doo that which the Elders doe or the Elders will or can doe that which he doth Will the Magistrat watche ouer particular flockes admonishe euery sinner they finde out followe menne by spirituall meanes till they bring them to repentance will they them selues execute the spirituall censures of suspentiō excommunication and such like Is this his office or can his conscience beare this burthen Doeth the Elders meddle with any ciuill cause or vse anye oher meanes then which are spirituall Shall they doe things so closely that al their actes may not be seene of the Magistrate if he suspect any thinge Nay must not all thinges they doo come to open knowledge if they passe a priuate admonition Will they bring no good to the common wealthe meete with no seedes of sedition Shall they not be able to giue notice of the dispositions of al men Shall they not finde out Iesuites and all heretikes and bring them to light Shall not the smaler vices and sometimes foule ones also whiche the lawe nowe meddleth little with by this meanes bee cu●t off In deede then mens purses shoulde not bee picked as they are nowe Then so manye Veluet coates should not be maintayned by spiritual reuenewes But I will speake no more of these matters Only I conclude seeing men haue in the tyme of prosperitie more neede of admonition and wholsome Discipline seing the Eldership doth nothing which the Magistrat doeth nor can any way hurte him but he may see it better ordred then in persecution that as this order is necessarie alwayes so especially in the time of peace The Lord giue vs all to be of one minde to see the trueth and practise it Psal 80.14 Nehe. 1. 2. Tim. 1. Doctor Whitgift pag. 626. Cyprian lib. 3. Epist. 22 (a) Num. 27 Actes 20 Poimenes laon in the Poet. 1. Thes 5.12 2. Cor. 11.23 Ephe. 4.10 1 Cor. 1● 28 Mat. 28.19 ●ute th●sian proscem ze 〈…〉 oute d●chen epitilem Iames 5. Marke 16.17 Acte 2.16 17 18 19● Act. 21.8 1. Cor. 14.26.34 2. Chro. 19.11 Iere. 19.1 Hes 10.8 2. Reg. 6. 1. Sam. 30.27 28 29 30. Actes 4.5 6 12. 5.21 Act. 23.14.15.16 25 15.

Secondlie seeing he doeth by the seconde parte confute those who sayde there is no neede of doctrine he sheweth that although some are to gouerne onely yet some which must haue great honour must teache also Yea if he had vnderstoode your sense of this place he would haue saide vpon the first part of the verse All must teache well therefore there is neede of doctrine in euerie place this argument could not haue bin left out and had bin more necessarie if he had seene that to be the meaning of the Apostle Lastlie in confutinge by this reason their negligence because they must labor in the worde and not with yours because they must labour more then others he sheweth your interpretation neuer came in his minde Thus three of his witnesses haue done him much more harme then good What sayeth the last Ambrose sayeth Presbiters .i. Elders and those whiche gouuerne well both in life and doctrine deserue double honour of those who are vnder them Is this to proue that Ambrose vnderstandeth the place of Preachers only when besides those which gouerne both in life doctrine he speaketh of Elders and Auncientes If you wil say that and doeth not here couple diuers thinges but interpret only what reason haue you to proue it Seeing he doeth alledge the texte expressely as we doo What goeth before what followeth after to proue it Nay in the last wordes he would then haue saide They deserue double honour of those whom they teache but because hee woulde make it generall to both hee sayeth of those that are vnder them which may haue relation to both sortes of Elders If Ambrose had misliked this office or not counted it perpetual you had had some reason to interprete Et and by these words that is But seeing he calleth for it and cōplaineth for the decay of it as we doo seeing he proueth it by the same places wee doo his interpretation hath no coulor to mainteine it self The first is manifest by his wordes on 1. Tim. 5. Vnde Synagoga postea Ecclesia seniores habuit quorum sine consilio nihil agebatur in Ecclesia Quod qua negligētia absoleuerit nescio nisi fortè Doctorum desidia aut magis superbia dum soli volunt aliquid videri that is Whence also the Synagogue and after the Church had Elders without whose counsell nothinge was done in the Church which by what negligēce it is worne out of vse I knowe not vnlesse perhaps by the slothe of the Teachers or rather their pride whilest they alone will seeme to be somewhat The second is manifest by his interpretation of the 1. Cor. 12. which we alledge Hee hath set in his Church gouernors of which wordes his whole interpretation after he had spoken vppon the former wordes of the Teachers is Sunt gubernatores qui spiritualibus retinaculis hominibus documēto sunt There are also gouernors which with spirituall bridles order mē Where in saying there are also he sheweth besides the teachers there are also rulers and such as rule with spirituall bridles not with the ciuill sworde Thus the Fathers are heauie friendes to this interpretation It may be notwithstanding he can so confute our reason brought against his misinterpretatiō as we must of force yeelde it into his handes For triall sake therefore we come to his answere Wherein obserue two faultes whiche are generall then you may the better deale with the particular deceites of his answere The one is that he cleane passeth by one principall reason which is made against him and it is this If the Apostle had ment to haue made two sortes of Preachers hee should haue saide They which rule well in worde and doctrine are worthie of double honor especiallie those which labor in it or labor more th●n others but the Apostle hath no wordes nor circumstance to make the word doctrine cōmon to both For by what law of interpretation will you doo it Will you interprete Ruling by teaching gouernement by doctrine One diuers thing by another Is that to interprete or to confounde An other faulte is that hee repeateth the fourth reason but maketh no aunswere at all vnto it The cause peraduenture is for that it was concluded in a connexiue syllogisme not a simple or ●ategoricall I will therefore doo so much for the author or rather him as turn it to his liking Thus What soeuer is a common duetie of all Elders that can not be assigned by the Apostle as a proper cause of an especiall honor in some sorte of good Preachers But Copiazein to take great paynes in their office c. is a common dutie to all Elders 1. Thes 5.12 Heb. 1● 17. Ergo Copiazein to take great paynes can not be assigned of the Apostle as a cause of especiall honor in some sorte of preachers We will nowe expect his answere although without cauill he can hardly answere it Thus we haue beheld the common vertues of his aunswere let vs looke into the proper strength in the particulars To the second reason his answere is that is this interpretation they doo nothing lesse then make the Apostle go backward and not forwarde For this is our meaning which we giue saith he That they whiche labour are worthie of double honour they which do● not are worthie of none A sounde answere which is contrarie to him selfe and toucheth not the force of that obiected against him Shewe the firste It is manifest by that which after he saith that this place is ment of suche as preache well and of some that in preaching well take more labor then other Here he vnderstādeth it of those which take any paynes and setteth them against those whiche take none So he maketh the highest degree of honor due to that which if it be not done he saith is worthy of no honor How cā that deserue or haue an excelencie of honor which is cōmon to all that may haue any honor in their office Besides this cōtradictiō which is euident in his owne words he toucheth not the force of the obiectiō The obiectiō is Whatsoeuer sense maketh the Apostle in the second member of the verse giue more to the part then in the first to the whole maketh him go backward nor forward in his word especially But this sense of theirs maketh the Apostle giue more to him that laboreth in preaching which is but a parte then to him which doth it wel which is to do it with great paynes puritie wisdom zeale power soundnes fitnes many other things besides labor Therefore this sense maketh him goe backewarde not forwarde in his worde especially This reason is playne What saith the answer Doth it distinguish No. Doth it denie the first part No. What then It denieth the conclusion against all rule of reason Yet by what reason doth he denie it By giuing an interpretatiō which doeth not make either two sortes of Elders or of sincere preachers but only two sortes of preachers one good