with them who by his owne confession had in their time the true Church Tenthly because all D. Allens Articles are in effect contained in my Motiues and Demaundes I will examine what he answereth not to my probations for to them or any one of them he lightly answereth not as I say afore but euen to the bare titles of them And for as much as his answeres will soone appeare to be no answers I will examine whether at the leastwise he obiecteth any thing to the purpose to the end that when thou shalt sée that all is so litle or rather nothing at all thou maist perceaue that God for his Churches glory blinded them to send such a booke abroade Which thou shalt againe more plainely perceaue in the eleuenth Chapter where I will lay forth his marueilous grosse and palpable contradictions yea and in great numbers also And againe as plainely in the twelft Chapter where I will display certaine straunge and detestable positions of his and also his ignoraunce in the Scriptures and other learning Theologicall To the which I might but for prolixitie ioyne many ensamples perteining to a falsarie putting him in minde withall of his horrible blasphemies as him selfe also must confesse them to be because he can not auoide it but that the Church against whom he hath poured them is the true Church In the conclusion I will amongst some other things aduertise the Reader what more may be desired for the full iustifying of the booke of Purgatorie though this much be ynough and superabundaunt but for iustification of the Articles that no more can be desired But now let vs come to the perfourming of these our promisses Ar. and Pur. in the margins signifie the page of Fulkes bookes against the Articles and against Purgatorie ¶ A REPLY TO FVLKE In defence of M. D. Allens scroll of Articles and booke of Purgatorie ¶ The first Chapter That he confesseth out of the true Church to be no saluation THis I shew briefly and most plainly by his owne words as where he saith The house of refuge or defence may be applied to the Church Ar. pag. 108. out of which is no saluation and in whose bosome it becommeth euery man to rest which shall looke for the refuge and defence of God Ar. 83. And in an other place There is no man of what age or yeres soeuer he be that can be saued except he be a mēber of the Catholike Church Agayne This we affirme that out of the Church there is no saluation Agayne We vtterly denie that beside the true Church Ar. 62. Ar. 76. there was an vntrue church that practised those offices of baptizing and other spirituall actions to the saluation of any man And agayne No man aliue Ar. 73. that knoweth what the true Church meaneth will say that any man can be saued out of the true Church For he that is not a member of the body of Christ can by no meane receiue any benefit of Christ to his saluation Therfore this is certaine that out of this Church none could be saued This then béeing so confessed as in our Church it is also openly practised first in baptisme to take men in then in reconciliation if they went or were cast afterwarde out to receiue them in againe I will stande no longer vpon it but procéede further ¶ The second Chapter That he confesseth the knowen Church of the first 600. yeres after Christ and the knowen members thereof THis likewise will be euident by his owne wordes if the Catholike eare can beare his blasphemies withall first if we consider what he writeth of the Romans and their Bishops both since Bonifacius the third and also afore him Ar 35. Being asked What yere the religion of the Papists came in and preuayled Thus he answereth We may well say that the religion of the Papistes came in and preuayled that yeare in which the Pope first obteined his antichristian exaltation which was in the yere of our Lord 607 when Boniface the third for a great summe of money obteined of Phocas the trayterous murtherer and adultrous Emperour that the Bishop of Rome should be called and counted the head of all the Church And what after that Since that time saith he that diuelish heresie hath alwayes increased in error vntill the yeare of our Lorde 1414. Wherevpon in other places he saith agayne Ar. 27. Pur. 344 From Boniface the third all blasphemous heretikes and antichristes And agayne Or any succeeded Boniface the third which beside their abhominable life were all heretikes and antichristes And where he speaketh of the olde Doctors by and by he addeth as in an antithesis Pur. 405 Nay rather count vpon the Popes to be pillers of your Church Doctours of your learning and Fathers of your fayth that haue bene within these seuen or eyght hundred yeres By this that he saith of the time after Boniface the third you perceyue his confession as touching the time afore him Yet to make it more playne he shall expressely make him selfe his owne confession Pur. 194. Gregory was the last of all the Romishe Bishops in whom was any sparke of goodnes because Boniface his successor See pag. and all the rest by Gregories owne iudgement and prophecie were all Antichristes And moste manifestly in an other place Pur. 372 where D. Allen vrgeth the succession of the Romane Bishops by example of Ireneus Cyprian Tertullian Optatus Hierome Augustine and Vincentius Lirinensis who confounded therewith all heretikes and saith It is a straunge thing that the Fathers hauing then store of Apostolike Successions did euer choose out for the warrant of their fayth from amongst the rest the Romane Seate and nowe when there is no Apostolike Churche lefte in the whole worlde but it that they will not haue vs referre our fayth to it which was euer of all other moste free from falshood To this Fulke in his aunswere saith That these men specially named the Churche of Rome it was because the Churche of Rome at that time as it was founded by the Apostles so it continued in the doctrine of the Apostles And a litle after As for that which M. Allen counteth so straunge it is for lacke of skill and right iudgement For the same cause that moued those auncient Fathers to appeale to the iudgement of the Churche of Rome moueth vs nowe to condemne the Churche of Rome of heresie Wherefore did they reuerence the Churche of Rome Aske Tertullian he answereth True doctrine in the true Churche hovv long because it had by Succession reteyned euen vntill his dayes that fayth which it did first receyue of the Apostles Therefore it was a true Churche therefore it was an Apostolike Churche This answere he learned of his master Caluine who in his Institutions first putteth downe our allegation saying Cal. Ins li. 4. ca. 2 nu 2.3 Magnifice illi quidem suam nobis Ecclesiam commendant Allegant enim
eam apud se initio sana doctrina sanguine Martyrum bene fundatam perpetua Episcoporum Successione conseruatam fuisse ne intercideret Commemorant quanti hanc Successionē fecerint Irenaeus Tertullianus Origenes Augustinus alij that is They in deede set foorth vnto vs their Churche very gloriously for they alleage that beeing in the beginning well founded amongest them with sounde doctrine and with the bloud of Martyres it was by the continuall Succession of Bishoppes preserued from decaying They report out of Irenaeus Tertullian Origene Augustine and others howe highly they esteemed this Succession And then he putteth herevnto his owne aunswere saying Cum extra controuersiam esset nihil a principio vsque ad illam aetatem mutatum fuisse in doctrina c. that is Considering that it was a playne case that from the beginning euen vntill that time nothing was chaunged in doctrine the holy Doctors tooke in argument that which was sufficient for the ouerthrowing of all newe errors to witte That they oppugned the doctrine which euen from the verye Apostles them selues had bene inuiolably and with one consent reteined This graunt both of the master and of his Scholar as more by a great deale then in this Chapter we néeded The true Churche not onely to haue continued so long it selfe but also to haue kepte inuiolably and generally with one accorde the true faith and true doctrine which of the Apostles thē selues she had receiued The like he confesseth of our owne Countrey also Ar. 49. where he saith The Church of the Brytaines before Augustine whom Saint Gregory sent from Rome to conuert the English in our said countrey of Britannie came in with Romish seruice had they not trow you Authentical Seruice which continued in the faith of Christ euen from the Apostles time To which confession let it be added out of S. Bedes Storie that the a Bed hist li. 2. ca. 4.2 li. 3. ca. 25. greatest point wherein the Christian Brytons and our Apostle S. Augustine differed was about the kéeping of Easter day and that also not so great as in olde time betwéene S. Victor of Rome and the Christians of Asia as this man ignorantly b Pur. 371. here ca. 10. pag. somwhere affirmeth that is to say not whether it should be alwayes kept with the Iewes vpon the verye day of the full Moone according to the heresie of the c Aug. heresi 29. Tessaresdecatite or Quartadecimani for that obseruation d Eus in vita Const li. 3. ca. 28. Britannie as the Emperour d Eus in vita Const li. 3. ca. 28. Constantinus witnesseth detested no lesse then other prouinces at the time of the Nicene Councell but onely vpon what e Beda supra sonday it should be kept So then this being their greatest difference and yet therein also the right obseruation being that which was brought from Rome as no man will denie you sée what graunt this man must make as to Britannie so likewise to Rome at that time to witte not onely the true Churche but withall the same faith which the Apostles taught though in this Chapter as I haue alreadie said we looke no more but for the true Church Which same true Church he graunteth againe many other wayes vnto the Romanes and their Bishops in that he geueth it to sundry notable personages and companies that were in vnitie and in one Church with the said Romaines as to the auncient Doctors and Councels to the Martyrs Monkes and other Christians not onely that frequented those Cryptes or holye vautes vnder the heathen and persecuting Emperours but also that gathered themselues afterward in those magnificall newe Temples vnder the Christian Catholike Emperours and finally to those Catholike Emperours themselues euen to Mauritius who liued with S. Gregory Ar. 60. Of the Doctors his confession is this The most approued writers Tertullian Cyprian Origen Epiphanius Hilarius Chrysostamus Ieronymus Ambrosius Augustinus c. were doubtles members of the true Church of Christ Againe Ar. 71. The Church of the Arians was not the Catholike Church but Athanasius and a a Such is his skill in the storie of that time few other that were banished and persecuted were the true Catholike Church Againe b Ar. 59. Iustinus Martyr and Irenaeus two of the most auncient authenticall writers that the Church next vnto the Apostles had And againe c Pur. 434. The old doctors had their measure of Gods spirit Cyprian and Cornelius were both endued with Gods spirit and both martyrs Againe Pur. 405. The Doctors of Gods Church Augustine Ambrose Chrysostome Basill c. Againe It is a good argument Ar. 27. that the Popish Church is not the Church of Christ because it was neuer hidden since it first sprang vp in so much that you can name all the notable persons in all ages in their gouernment and ministerie and especially the succession of d A proper distribution the Popes in all ages to be ours and yet the Apostles Doctors to be his Sapientes confitentur non abscondunt patres suos quoth Eliphaz against Iob. cap. xv Popes you can rehearse in order vpon your fingers But our Church which hath not had so many registers chroniclers and remembrancers hath perhaps fewer but yet honester men to name we can name Peter Paul c. Iustinus Irenaeus Cyprianus Athanasius Hilarius Ambrosius Augustinus Gyldas c Then as touching auncient Councels thus he saith f Ar. 97. The foure best generall councels were gathered by our Churche Againe g Pur. 430. Pur. 296. If any Councell decree according to the Scriptures as the Councell of the Apostles did Act. 15 and the Councell of Nice with diuers other we receaue them with all humilitie as the oracles of God To this place of Doctors and Councels pertaineth that also which he confesseth of the Church that resisted and ouercame the olde heresies as where D. Allen had said It is not you that shall outface Gods Church she hath by the spirit of God beaten downe your proudders the Arrians the Macedonians the Anabaptistes as the Donatistes c. and all your predecessors He answereth 297. You boast that your Church hath beaten downe our proudders the Arrians Macedonians Anabaptistes It was the Church of Christ that ouerthrewe those Heretikes And in an other place likewise Ar. 10. I demaund saith D. Allen what Church hath mightely gone through borne downe fully vanquished all heresies in times past aswell against the blessed Trinitie as other articles of our Religion I answere saith Fulke the true Catholike Church hath alwayes resisted all false opinions contrarie to the worde of God as her dutie was and fought against them with the sworde of the spirite which is the word of God and by the aide of God obtained the victory and triumphed ouer them So did the fathers of the primitiue Church from time to time confute heresies by the
and that no man for much more then a .1000 yeares together after the Apostles time either denied it Roff. in li. Aâ— Petrus fuerit Romae con Vellaeum Cochl de Petro Roma coÌ„ Velli Wald. li 2. Doct. ar 1. c. 7. tom 3. ca. 129. Cop. dial 1 ca. 15. or doubted of it Besides sundrie most manifest argumentes to proue it whereas the Wickleâ—istes and Protestants arguments against it which he saith can neuer be answered are the most ridiculous things that euer man heard Though Fulke bring not forth any one of them yet I haue answered the very best of them here Pag. 237. And most excellent authors among the Catholikes haue alreadie written whole Bookes of this question as Roffensis Cochleus besides Thomas Waldensis and many others that haue chapters of it in other bookes Howbeit the scripture also it selfe is plaine ynough in it if one be not too contentious where S. Peter himselfe doth say that he wrote his first Epistle in Rome calling it Babylon as I noted cap. 9. pag. 156. And for S. Paules being there which is ynough to proue the Apostolike Sée of that Church the Actes are most euident Act. 28. In so much that also Fulke himself after this maner to contrarie him selfe doth confesse here cap. 2. pag. 3. that the Churche of Rome was founded by the Apostles In which place also he graunteth that in the Fathers time it was an Apostolike Church howsoeuer now he would draw his necke out of the coller by denying Peter to haue bene there But be it that Peter was there he saith in his 2. shift except you proue Succession of doctrine and faith aswel as Succession of men your Succession is not worth a straw Yes sir in prouing the Succession of men onely we doe as much as the Fathers did vnlesse you will say that their doing also was not worth a strawe For a Succession of men there must be the Scriptures are plaine therein as the Fathers shewe But no companie sauing the Romanes companie can shew a Succession of men Therefore no companie but theirs is the Church In so much also that the Scripture and Fathers together doe say of that Succession and of that onely Ipsa est Petra Mat. 16. Aug. in Ps coÌ„t partem Donati quam non vincunt superbae inferorum portae That is the Rocke which the proude gates of hell doe not ouercome And your selfe with your master Caluin doe confesse here cap. 2. pag. 3. that it continued in the Apostles faith and sounde doctrine for the first .400 yeares which is ynough against you because you also confesse cap. 3. that within the same time in it was praying for the dead and many other pointes against your doctrine 45. Chaunging Moti 24. Article 11. Dem. 14. But that you shoulde not haue any such euasion I made my next Demaund expresly of that matter noting that the Romane Churche as it hath succession of men so also hath succession of doctrine and faith neuer to this day chaunging the doctrine and faith which it receiued of the Apostles Now what haue you to the contrarie Of S. Victor who excommunicated the Asians Ar. 47. I haue answered Dem. 28. that it is nothing else but your blasphemous audacitie to say that he chaunged from his predecessors and vsurped authoritie in that doing Touching also S. Boniface the third against whom you alleage the saying of his Predecessor S. Gregorie None of my Predecessors would vse this prophane title to call himselfe Vniuersall Bishop I haue answered Cap. 3. pag. 24. that you belie S. Boniface For neither he nor any since him no more then they before him vsed that title but the cleane contrarie title Seruus seruorum dei which S. Gregorie of humilitie did begin Thirdly you say that the same Gregorie as Hulderichus Bishop of Auspurge doth testifie was the first that compelled Priestes to liue vnmaried Which afterward when he saw the inconuenience he reuoked And so you destroy your own ensample for if he reuoked it then is not he one that made a chaunge from his Fathers faith You that will not beléeue all Antiquitie saying that Peter was at Rome will yet haue no man doubt but S. Gregorie saw such inconuenience in so shorte a time that six thousand Infantes were straight begotten by the fornications of onely Subdeacons yea and cruelly murdered yea and all their heades caste into one certaine poole and therefore found and taken vp by tale Witnesse of all this one that being Bishop of Auspurge wrote to Pope Nicolas the first who was dead 56. Cop. dial 1 cap. 22. yeares before this man was made Bishop He that will Laugh more at large at the fable let him reade M. Cope As for Priestes Mariage I noted cap. 3. pag. 12. cap. 6. pag. 43. How they counted Iouinian an Heretike and a monster long before S. Gregories time for allowing of it These are all the chaunges that you note in the Church of Rome vnlesse I must count this another where you note D. Allen to confesse Pur. 68. that the old vsage of the Church was first to set satisfaction and then to absolue though now of late to absolue before satisfaction hath bene more vsed Both maners haue bene alwayes vsed but the first of old more then the second and the second of late more then the first This saith D. Allen and it is euident to them that are skilfull in Antiquitie namely such as did not make their confession before they fell sore sicke they were absolued incontinently and did their Penaunce afterwards if they recouered Hereticall Bishoppes and Priestes were oftentimes receyued vppon cause by onely absolution without all satisfaction yea and permitted to continue in their honours also The Churches care both then and now was and is to haue all sinners truely contrite before absolution and that is sufficient before God Neuerthelesse suche as haue offended afore also are caused to doe their duetie accordingly A straunge matter that these Heretikes who haue quite taken all away should controll the Church although she also had taken all away howe muche lesse considering that she hath not taken any piece away but onely putteth that more often to the second place whiche she was wonte as it is a thing indifferent to put in the firste place more often and that according to her power to edifie and not to destroye seeing the people now so careles that rather then they will doe suche penaunce for satisfaction they will not come to confession and so dying without absolution goe to damnation and seeing withall that whereas satisfaction is no satisfaction vnlesse the partie bee firste in grace his owne contrition before was alone but nowe it hath the helpe of absolution whiche of it selfe conferreth grace that nowe his satisfaction muche more probablye then before is not baren And therefore muche lesse satisfaction nowe like to be more auayleable then muche more before and
also for hereafter Euen as Fulke also him selfe saith Ar. 78. Pur. 298. In despight of the diuel and all her enemies she is to this day preserued and shall be to the worlds ende and none other but she Moti 48. 51 Apostasie Last of al I shew that it is not so much an Heresie as a plaine Apostasie from Christ that the Protestants haue brought in vnder the name of the Gospel Wherof also I haue said ynough ca. 8. pag. 118. So that if it were euer damnable to giue eare to any Heretikes it is damnable to giue eare to these Which it were good for all men to thinke earnestly vpon before it be to late ¶ The eleuenth Chapter What grosse Contradictions Fulke is driuen to vtter against him selfe while he struggleth against Gods Church and the Doctrine thereof BEsides all that hath bene yet said another most iust motiue not to follow the Protestants may be this to any reasonable man because they know not themselues what to holde nor what to say and therefore doe vtter straunge contradictions in their bookes by reason that they will say any thing rather then yéelde plainely to the trueth A notable ensample hereof we haue in Fulke specially about the question of the Church in his booke of the Articles as I will here note very briefely leauing to the discrete Readers consideratiō what I might enlarge vpon euery particular First as touching the Church of Rome on the one side thus he saith Ar. 96. You are neuer able to answere the argumentes that Peter was neuer at Rome And then where is the Apostolike Sea succession c Then on the contrarie side The Church of Rome was founded by the Apostles b Pur. 373.361.374 it was an Apostolike Church 2 c Pur. 373.374 Those auncient Fathers whom D. Allen doth name the last of them is Vincentius Lirinensis An. 420. did appeale to the iudgement of the Church of Rome against all heresies and c Pur. 373.374 among the Apostolike Churches specially named the Church of Rome because it continued in the doctrine of the Apostles Yet contra where d Apud Au. de gra Chr. cont Pelag. c. 43 Pelagius within that compasse commended S. Ambrose for the Romaine faith and most pure sence in the Scriptures Fulke saith therevpon e Pu. 405. And by the way note here the Hereticall bragge of the Romaine faith 3 Speaking of the same Fathers and Church of Rome f Pur. 374. It had by Succession reteined euē vntill their dayes that faith which it did first receiue of the Apostles Contra g Ar. 85. She the Church of Rome hath had no orderly Succession of Bishops except so many Schismes as they write of be orderly Successions By the time of those Fathers there had bene foure Schismes 4 h Pur. 373.374 It continued at that time in the doctrine of the Apostles h Pur. 373.374 it reteined by Succession that faith which it did first receiue of the Apostles Contra He charged it with sundrie errors here Cap. 3. .4 namely P. Liberius with Arrianisme P. Innocentius for housling of Infantes eight Popes for the Supremacie 5 i Pur. 374. Ar. 79. It was a true Church an Apostolike Church i Pur. 374. Ar. 79. a faithfull Church true i Pur. 374. Ar. 79. and Apostolike Faith and Religion haue dwelled in her Contra k Ar. 85.16 106.10.27 The Church of Rome neuer preached the word of trueth She neuer had sence she first arose the ministring of Sacramentes according to Christes institution The true Catholike Church hath ouerthrowen Heresies of all sortes But the Popish Church was neuer able to encounter with Heretikes k Ar. 85.16 106.10.27 Rome may be a nurse of Antichristians but neuer did good vnto Christians k Ar. 85.16 106.10.27 I am able to proue that the Primitiue Church affirmed a Supra pag. 29. your Church to be the Church of Antichrist He meaneth the l Supra ca. 9. pag. 155. places of S. Irenée S. Hierome S. Augustine calling Rome Babylon which he vnderstandeth as though they had so called the Church of Rome in their time also as the Protestants doe now at this time 6 m Ar. 102.38 Pur. 287. The Popish Church is a puddle of all false doctrine and heresie whereof the whore beareth a cuppe full out of which all Nations haue drunke m Ar. 102.38 Pur. 287. Euen from the Apostles time the diuell neuer left to set in his foote for his sonne Antichristes dominion vntill he had placed him in the Temple of God prepared the wide world for his walke and then came m Ar. 102.38 Pur. 287. The Generall defection Contra Ar. 38.16.33.34 Supr p. 117. All Nations neuer consented to the doctrine of the Papistes For as it hath bene often said the Greeke Church and all other Orientall Churches of Asia and Africa neuer receiued the Popish Religion in many chiefe pointes and specially in acknowledging the Popes authoritie they will not vnto this day acknowledge her doctrine to be Catholike nor her authoritie to be lawfull And yet we shall now heare that the preuailing of the Popes religion and his Antichristian exaltation consisteth specially in that point Ar. 36. 7 The religion of the Papistes came in and preuayled in the yere of our Lord 607. in which the Pope first obteined his Antichristian exaltation to wit Bonifacius the 3. of Phocas the Emperour that the Bishop of Rome should be called and counted the head of all the Church Contra in the same place Because you speake of the first entring of Popish religion which dependeth chiefly vpon the Popes authoritie it first began to aduaunce it selfe in Victor about the yere of our Lord 200. And likewise in diuers others before S. Bonifacius the third as he confesseth here cap. 3. and withall that the Church of Rome all that while was the Church of Christ and not of Antichrist Ar. 102. Pur. 287.238 8 The Popish Church is a puddle of all false doctrine and heresie Euen in the Apostles time and from that time in all times whensoeuer and wheresoeuer was any peece of myste or darke corner though all the reste were light there were the steppes of your walke It may be a shame for you Papistes to leaue and condemne for heresie all that is true in the Fathers writings and agreable to the Scripture Ar. 43. Contra where he distinguisheth the Religion of the Papistes from the great heresies and open aduersaries that sought to beate downe the chief foundations of Christian faith as the Valentinians Marcionistes Manichees Arrians Sabellians and such like monsters Ar. 43.36.38 Supra c. 10. pag. 223. 9 We say not that the Religion of the Papists came in sodenly but that it entred by small degrees at the first and therefore was lesse espyed by the true Pastors beeing earnestly occupied against great
heresies not preached against winked at because it had a shew of pietie and charitie and at length allowed of Augustine and others who followed the common errors of their time Specially when a Generall defection and departing from the faith was foreshewed what maruell were it if none coulde preach against it as it first entred Ar. 92.36.37 Contra The Churche of Christ in such places as she is suffreth no man damnably abusing her Religion without open reprehension Ar. 11. 10 The true Catholike Church hath alwayes resisted all false opinions contrarie to the word of God as her duetie was and fought against them and obteined the victorie and triumphed ouer them Pur. 419. Ar. 35.36 Contra In those auncient times they of the true Catholike Church did not alwayes weigh what was most agreable to the worde of God but if Heretikes had any thing that seemed to haue a shewe of pietie or charitie they would drawe it into vse So they tooke into the Church of Christ many abuses and corruptions vntill at the length An. 607. the religion of the Papistes preuayled And c since that time that diuelish heresie hath alwayes increased in error vntill the yere 1414. 11 That blasphemous heresie of Purgatorie To the Reader Pu. 26.166.184.177.269.362.363.419.186 which is moste blasphemous against Christ against the bloud of Christ against his merites and satisfaction for our sinnes and against Gods vnspeakable mercies and occasion of most licentious wickednes in all thē that beleue it nothing conuenient for the disciples members of Christ No suffrages were made for the dead by the Apostles or their lawfull successors Contra here cap. 3. he confesseth that the Fathers held it and yet notwithstanding that they were members of the true Church ca. 2. and held the foundation Iesus Christ cap. 5. and all the substance of true doctrine z Pur. 393.405 And also that they did inuocate Saintes denying in other y Supr pa. 139.140 places that such be true Christians The like q Su. p. 141. of Fasting 12 x Pur. 51.26.166.177.184 The opinion of Purgatorie satisfaction of sinnes after this life is the very doctrine of licentiousnesse to mainteine wicked men in their presumptuousnes For what hast will they make to amendment newnes of life when they haue hope of release after their death Contra As S. Augustine saith Pur. 448. it is but for smal faultes or as M. Allen saith for great faultes that by penaunce are made small And is God suche a mercifull father to punishe small faultes so extremely in his children whom he pardoneth of all their great and haynous sinnes O blasphemous helhoundes Sée how vehement he is in contradicting him selfe to iustifie that saying of D. Allens I am well assured there dare no man Pur. 150. though he were destitute of Gods grace yet not for shame of him selfe affirme that the doctrine of Purgatorie is hurtfull to vertuous life Considering that people with vs are told that to escape hell it selfe they must do much more then the Protestants require and more againe to escape Purgatorie according to S. Augustines threatning here cap. 9. pag. 212. 13 How long soeuer the true Church were hidden Ar. 73. Supra ca. 1. whether it were a 1000. yeres or 2000. yeres this is certayne that out of this Church none could be saued Contra here ca. 5. he counteth it ynough if the faith of their saluation were in the onely foundation Iesus Christ and that in such a sense as agréeth to men in déede out of the Church Ar. 61 74. Pur. 238. 14 They which hold the foundation that is Christ to wit the Article of Iustification by the onely mercie of God and of the onely Sonne of God are doubtlesse members of the true Church of Christ Contra here cap. 10. pag. where he saieth that the Anabaptistes are abominable heretikes and that they are not Protestants who yet do hold that article iump as the Protestants do Ar. 36.38 Ar. 71.78.79.80 15 A generall departing from the faith was foreshewed and it was fulfilled An. 607. Contra The Church was neuer lost neither when the departing was Generall but hidden in the wildernesse that is from the eyes of the world She is to this day preserued and shal be to the worldes end Christ hath neuer wanted his Spouse in earth he hath neuer ben a head without a body Ar. 2.96.26.27 16 The Primitiue Church of the Apostles hath continued vnto this day by succession not of persons and places but of doctrine faith and trueth These very wordes conteine a manifest contradiction For how can a Church or doctrine faith and truth cōtinue but in persons and places in so much that he saith also We doubt not but God hath alway stirred vp some faithful teachers that haue instructed his Church in the necessarie pointes of Christian doctrine Ar. 15.79 17 The true Church of Christ hath alwayes stoode stedfast inseperable from Christ her head though the blind worlde when they see her will not acknowledge her to be his Spouse but persecute her as if she were an adulteresse Contra in the same place The true Church vnder the Emperours Constantinus Constans and Valens was greatly infected with the heresie of Arius And in another place Ar. 79. The visible Church may become an adultresse and be deuorced from Christ And so is that faithfull Church of Rome become an harlot Ar. 79. 18 The true Church consisting of Gods elect and the liuely members of the body of Christ shal neuer commit such adultery c. But the visible Church may separate her selfe from Christ As though there were another Church besides the visible Church and so two Churches Ar. 65. Contra Wheresoeuer the Catholike Church be in partes it is one body of Christ And therfore in dede there is neuer no Church but the visible Church the other is but an imagination of the Protestants to delude the world withall As though Luther and the rest that appeared with him had afore their appearing bene secrete Protestants whereas in deede they were open Papistes 19 Anno 607. the Church fled into the wildernes that is Ar. 16.27.79.36 out of the sight and knowledge of the world there to remaine a long season where all this while God hath preserued her vntill suche time as he thought good now in our daies to bring her out of her secrete place in the wildernes into the open sight of the world againe Contra Ar. 77. Diuers times it was bold to chalenge preaching and ministring of the Sacraments yea and so boldly that it cost many of the chalengers their liues As Berengarius Bruno Marsilius de Padua Ioannes de Gaudano Ioannes Wickleue Walden Ioannes Hus Ieronymus de Praga c. Where besides his manifest contradiction I note two things against him one that it cost not all these yea very few of these
as before And agayne Neither do we require you to beleeue any one companie of men Ar. 62. more then another but to beleeue the truth before falshood which you must search in the word of truth It was belike for this much other such Apocriphall stuffe that your booke was kept in so long and in the end also faine to come forth without priuiledge Yea he is so peremptorie in his exception Fuâ—e vvil not beleeue the Apostles nor the Angels vvithout Scripture the most absurdly he attributeth to the Apostles themselues without scripture no more then to Iackstraw and consequently with scripture as much to Iackstraw as to the Apostles For thus he saith speaking of D. Allen He speaketh it because he beleeueth it Pur. 24.4 2. Cor. 4. He would faine counterfeit his speach like the Apostle but the ground of his beliefe is not as the Apostles was the word of God but the practise of meÌ„ which though they were neuer so good yet they were suche as might deceiue and be deceiued Againe Pur. 449. Gal. 1. where he abuseth that which S. Paule speaketh to the Galathians of preaching their receiuing of it turneth it as spoken of onely Scripture It vexeth you at the very hart saith he that we require the authoritie of the holy Scriptures to confirme your doctrine hauing a plaine coÌ„maundement out of the word of God that if any man teache otherwise then the word of God alloweth he is to be accursed As though S. Paul there commaunded to accurse him self and al the Apostles the vniuersall Church of Christ if they confirmed not all their doctrine with expresse Scriptures in such maner as you here require No Syr nothing so Onely he accurseth them which should preach contrarie to that he had preached the Galathians had receiued which was as you see traditioÌ„ by mouth in which maner he taught them other Churches all Christian Religion therein as one principall point the Canon of the scriptures both old new if at the leastwise any Bookes of the newe as then were written which could not be many before the Epistle to the Galathians being as by conference of times it may well be proued the first of all S. Paules Epistles And so much of the Churches authoritie in her Iudgements and Practise namely of her diuine Seruice Whervnto I ioyne as the principalles in the authoritie first the Councells and secondly the Popes For to theÌ„ likewise he maketh his exceptioÌ„ Pur. 430. Councels Dem. 27. saying Wherfore if any CouÌ„cell decree according to the Scriptures as the CouÌ„cel of the Apostles did Act. 15. the CouÌ„cel of Nice with diuers other we receiue them with all humilitie as the oracles of God But if any Councell decree contrarie to the authoritie of the Scriptures as many did without all presumption or pride we may iustly reiect them Pur. 194. See Apostolike Dem. 28. Then of the other Yet is not all that Gregorie writ of equall authoritie with the word of God without authoritie whereof we beleeue not an Angel from heauen as I haue often shewed much lesse a Bishop of Rome And not onely against eche Pope seuerally but also against their whole line and entire Succession he excepteth in like maner saying Succession Dem. 43. Aâ— 28. Although we could rehearse in order as many Successions in our Church as the Papistes boast of in theirs yet were that nothing to proue it to be the Church of Christ which must be tried onely by the Scriptures And a little after We require at the Papistes handes that they shew them selues to hold the Church not by Succession of Bishops or rehearsing of their names but onely by the Scriptures For although wee did rehearse innumerable names of Bishops in orderly Succession on our side wee would not require men to beleeue vs but onely because wee proue the doctrine of our Churche by the authoritie of the Scriptures In déede we must acknowledge Fulke vvhat a frankeling that you deale very frankely with vs to renounce so fréely such a goodly euidence because you can not make so much as any shew thereof For otherwise when you haue any collour of any thing at all what mountybanke pedler is so facing so boasting so vaunting as you and your fellowes iiij Against the Fathers Fathers Dem. 26. Now after all this I will open his like excepting against the Fathers both in generall and also expressing diuerse of their names although it hath bene opened in part alreadie by other occasions And touching the first true it is that he often braggeth much of the Fathers which liued in the first a Ar. 39. Pu. 30.177 435.370.371 two hundred or b Pur. 186.247.304.331.357.364.382 one hundred yeares chalenging vs to proue our doctrine out of them and not out of the later Fathers after them euen with as much reason as he commonly chalengeth vs to proue all out of the scriptures vtterly without all ground but méere voluntarily * Fulkes tvvo Onelies the one as the other which ensample therefore is much to be noted But here notwithstanding I shall declare howe he excepteth smothly and simply against all the Fathers against all in general and expresly also saying were they neuer so auncient Wherin how well he agréeth with him selfe I deferre to the eleuenth Chapter And in effect he hath already so done in calling so often afore for Onely Scripture But yet to shew it more manifestly and as it were the very face it selfe thus he saith Pur. 205. Whatsoeuer he was or howe long soeuer it be since he wrote because it hath not authoritie in the word of God I weigh it as the wordes of a man whose credit in diuine matters is nothing without the word of God Againe Pur. 202. When all authoritie out of Gods word faileth you wherby you should proue that the soules departed receiue benefite by the merites of the liuing you flye to the authoritie of men But mans authoritie is to weake to carie away so weightie a matter Away with mens writings shew me but one Scripture to proue it Againe If for these and an hundred suche Pur. 22. you can shew no better warrant then the tearmes of your fathers the practise of your elders or the authoritie of mortall men the curse of God by Esay must nedes be turned ouer vnto you Againe Pur. 58. Your reasons either be manifest wrestings of the holy Scripture or else are buylded vpon the authoritie of mortall men Againe Pur. 386. We neede no shift M. Allen for the authoritie of the Doctors whom we neuer allow for Canonicall Scriptures and therefore we may boldly say Whatsoeuer we find in theÌ„ agreable to the Scriptures he meaneth expressed in the Scriptures we receiue it with their prayse and whatsoeuer is disagreable to the Scriptures we refuse with their leaue Againe Pur. 363. Now touching the credite and
bene otherwise expounded then of their cause Pur. 176. Yea and more then that The worde of God doth neither expresly nor by any probable collection allow it but manifestly condemne it Pur. 185. Againe He could not with any semely colour establish purgatorie by the authoritie of the Scripture the onely testimonie of Gods word and will reueiled and confirmed by his holy Spirite The Machabées to be euen so confirmed as well as the other bookes he can neuer auoyde and in effect he graunteth as I shall note in the eleuenth Chapter amongst his contradictions Which is sufficient I trow to make at the least a séemely colour and a probable collection but in déede also a conclusion so necessary that he can neuer answere it but by shaking the authoritie of all the Canonicall Scriptures in derogating from their confirmation which yet him selfe doth attribute to the holy Spirite The fourth part What great promises he maketh to bring most euident Scripture against vs and also by Scripture to proue his sence of the Scripture Triumphing also before the victorie saying that we dare not be tried by Scripture but reiect the Scriptures Wherevpon a fourefold offer is made vnto him Now that we haue séene howe precise he is with vs to admit 1 no euidence that we alleage but Scripture onely both in all controuersies and also in the exposition of Scripture and againe 2 no Scripture which maketh so playnly with vs that he can not auoyde it but by denying it to be Canonical though he graūt it to haue the confirmation of the same true Church which moueth him as the holy Ghost to receiue the other Scriptures for Canonicall and againe 3 no Scripture that he confesseth to be Canonicall vnlesse it make so expresly so playnly so manifestly and so necessarily with vs that it can not by any suttletie be auoyded It were to be séene nowe on the other side what Scriptures he alleageth against vs whether he obserue him selfe the law that he so rigorously prescribeth to vs whether his Scriptures be so playne so manifest so euident that by no sutteltie they can be auoyded But that we shall sée in the next Chapter no nede of sutteltie I assure you to auoyde or delude them so friuolous are his allegations that with al facilitie and truth we shall answere them Here in the meane time in the ende of this Chapter I will onely lay forth his great promises aforehande and so come orderly to the matter And to omit if he should haue to do with all the old and newe heresies what manifest necessary confutations he would frame against them all and euery one out of the Scriptures alone hauing fréely afore them renounced al other probations according to his former sayings here that all truth and all articles of our beliefe are playnly taught in the Scripture and may be so proued by Scripture that there is nothing that we are bound to know nothing that we are bound to do but it is so set forth in the scriptures His great promises I will charge him no more but with his promise that he maketh of so confuting vs by playne Scriptures notwithstanding that all other euidences make for vs in such sort as he hath already confessed Thus he saith Pur. 187. And that which I haue to saye in confutation of your heresie shall be no worse then the very word of God it selfe which is better then the consent of all the world against it And againe Pur. 30. I am one of the least of Gods Ministers yet by his grace and authoritie of his holy word I shal be able to ouerthrow both this and all other Babilonicall bulwarks that are cast vp by Satan all his instruments for the defence of Popish heresie against the truth of God And neither the myst of mens inuētions which you cal the light of Apostolike tradition shall be able to darken the truth of the Gospell nor the errors of mortall men which you terme the force of Gods trueth shall beare downe the authoritie of Gods holy spirite Againe Pur. 12. We be able to shew manifest euidence that our aduersaries doctrine is cleane contrarie to the Scriptures of God Againe Ar. 3. We affirme that the Apostles taught none other faith in stead of true Christianitie but that which we hold as we are ready to proue by the word of God Againe I can proue by S. Paules writings Ar. 59. that in all articles of faith he taught the same which we beleeue And for triall of this because it would require a whole volume if I should proue euery perticular article wherein we dissent from you Papistes If you will name an article in the next Chapter your selfe shall name ynowe Yet if you will let it be this that Antichrist is not one certaine person and that the Churches fléeing into the wildernesse at his comming is to become inuisible to the world and that the beginning of that comming and fleing should be so soone after Christes passion the continuaunce so many ages the end so long before Christes second cōming wherein we agree not with S. Paule If I be not able to proue that we agree with him in the meaning thereof I will reuoke that article and agree with you therein Yea and also to proue his owne meaning and to disproue our meaning when we both alleage Scriptures he will séeke as he required of vs to nothing likewise but Scripture it selfe For the meaning of the worde he saith you should beleeue vs rather then the Papistes because our groundes and proues are better then theirs or els we require not to be beleeued better then they And there againe If you bring out a false sense we beleeue you not because we knowe it to be false and are able to proue by the word of God that it is contrarie to the meaning of the holy Ghost His triumphing in lying These are his worthie promises Of which he hath béen so liberall belike because he knewe that we dare not once appeare when Scriptures be alleaged by the Protestantes For such are his wordes Pur. 380. We can shewe no cause in the world you say why wee neede in any one point of controuersie depart from your Church Yet M. Allen this one cause shall serue for all because your Church is departed from the truth of Gods word and dare not abide the tryall thereof but will sitte like a proude dame in a Chaire Ar. 28. and controll the Scriptures Againe The Popish Church can by no reason chalenge Apostles Euangelistes and Prophets seeing she refuseth to be tried by their doctrine vttered in their writinges Againe The spouse of Christ heareth the voice of Christ Ar. 99.6 and is ruled thereby But the Romish Church will in no wise be ruled Onely by the voyce of Christ therefore she is not the Spouse of Christ Where by his foysting in of the worde Onely in the Minor
the writinges of the Apostles haue taught vs according to the foresayd rules in so much that wee compt it not at all Catholike whatsoeuer shall appeare contrarie to the rules appointed You are a great reader of the Doctors I sée Whosoeuer made that Homilie he tooke those wordes out of that brief Instruction which in the first Tome of the Councels foloweth the Epistle of Pope Celestinus to the Bishops of Fraunce concerning the Semipelagians which Bishops I thinke to be the Authors of the same Instruction They take it and so they say out of the determinations of those Bishops of Rome in whose time Pelagius and Celestius beganne their Heresie that is P. Innocentius and P. Zozimus and out of certein Aphrican Councels approued by those Popes And after 8. or 9. such Canons or articles they make an end saying As for certaine more suttle points we are not bound to resolue vpon them We thinke all that sufficeth enough which the writinges of the See Apostolike haue taught vs according to the foresayde rules or Canons in no wise thinking it Catholike that shal appeare to be contrarie praefixis sententijs to the resolutions set here before Againe in Gen. Hom. 58. Thou seest into what great absurditie they fal qui diuinae Scripturae canonem sequi nolunt Which will not follow the Canon of Holy Scripture but permit all to their owne cogitations Hée answereth the Heretikes which said that our Lord tooke not true flesh Then saith Chrysostome he neither was crucified nor dyed nor was buried nor rose agayne Into such absurditie they fall because they will not followe the playne line of Scripture but their owne imaginations of putatiue flesh such as was in the Apparitions of the old Testament What is this for onely Scripture But if we be further vrged we will alleage that which he saith In Euang. Ioan. Hom. 58. He that vseth not the holy Scripture but climbeth another way id est non cōcessa via that is by a way not allowed is a Theefe O Christian spirite if you be vrged you will call S. Chrysostome a Theefe by his owne saying for vsing Tradition As though he vseth not Scripture which vseth Tradition or that Scripture doth not warrant Tradition as 2. The. 2. The thing which S. Chrysostome there speaketh of is this that Antichrist and those pseudochristes Iudas Galileus Theudas and such others also heretikes Schismatikes as Luther Caluine c. cannot shew any commission out of Scripture But Christ and his Apostles with the other Catholike Pastors that succede them come into their cure by good warrant of Scripture These therfore are true Pastors the other are théeues We may be as bould with Chrysostome as he sayd he would be with Paule himselfe in 2. ad Tim. Hom. 2. Plus aliquid dicam I will say somewhat more we must not be ruled by Paule himselfe if he speake any thing that is his owne and any thing that is humane but we must obey the Apostle when he carieth Christ speaking in him And when is that when he speaketh all only by Scripture Will you not obey him then when he sayth Ego enim accepi a domino For I receiued it of our Lordes mouth 1. Cor. 1◠Sée in what a proper sense you vse Chrysostoms words These are the foure places One other you haue elsewhere saying Chrysostome vpon Luke cap. 16. saith Ar. 12. Chrys cō 3. de Lazaro that ignorance of the Scriptures hath bred heresies and brought in corrupt life yea it hath turned all things vpsidedowne By which it appeareth by what means he would haue heresies kept away namely by knowledge of the Scriptures And who would not the same It is therfore our dayly studie and we sée our selues and shewe others thereby the abomination of your Heresies and how you would face them out with a carde of tenne But what maketh this for Onely Scripture to be of authoritie As S. Chrysostome so in like maner S. Leo is of your side you say against vs and against him selfe For where D. Allen alleaged this saying of his Pur. 387. Leo Ser. 2. de ieiunio Pentecost It is not to be doubted but whatsoeuer is in the Church by generall custome of deuotion kept and reteined it came out of the Apostles tradition and doctrine of the Holy Ghost You answere that the saying of Leo the great may be backed with the writing of Leo the great Epist 10. They fall into this folly which when they be hindred by some obscuritie to know the truth haue not recourse to the words of the Prophets nor to the writings of the Apostles nor to the authorities of the Gospell but to them selues In these wordes Leo as Great as you would haue him maketh the Scriptures and not Customes or Traditions the rule of trueth So you gather of those words as also in another place That the Church should ouerthrow heresies Ar. 14. by the word of God onely Leo the first Bishop of Rome in his Epist 10. ad Flauianum contra Eutichen playnely confesseth He doth not saye that all truthes are expressed in the Scriptures though that be whereof he there intreateth to witte the Incarnation of Christ Mary when a trueth is expressed in the Scriptures recourse muste be had to the Scriptures So he sayth but he sayth not to the Scriptures onely yea in the very same tenth Epistle he blameth Eutiches the Heretike much more for not hauing recourse neither so muche as to our common Creede whiche is not Scripture you wotte well but a Tradition Ar. 15. Of the same iudgement you say was not Leo onely but the whole Councell of Constantinople the sixt Actione 18. confessing that the Heretikes and Schismatikes growe so fast because they were not beaten downe by preaching of the Gospel and authoritie of the Scriptures I confesse the same howbeit the Councell doth not But what is that for Onely Scripture yea the place is playne for the other side I maruell you could not espie as much euen by the piece that you alleage althogh you saw not the whole circumstance Béeing truely translated this it is If al men had simply and without calliditie from the beginning receiued the Gospels preaching and bene content with the Apostles institutions the matters verily had bene well a fyne and neither the authors of the heresies nor the fautors of the Priests had bene put to the paines of conflictes Who would rest here as you do and not imagine somewhat to follow with a but necessary to be séene Sed quia Satanas c. But because the diuell not resting raiseth vp his squires therfore Christ also in time conuenient hath raised vp his warriers against them to wit the Generall Councels that to this time haue ben holden by the dilligence of the Emperours and the Popes being Sixe in number So expresly they auouch the authoritie of the Councels and you alleage them for Only Scripture wheras also in the words that
vndique Ire li. 3. ca. 3 conseruata est ea quae est ab Apostolis traditio In which Church saith S. Irenée that is by repayring to it the faithfull that be all about haue alwayes preserued theÌ„ selues in the tradition that coÌ„meth from the Apostles And where you say for another instance Ar. 2.3 Pur. 337. It is manifest by al Histories that the Nations of the Alanes Gothes Vandales were first conuerted by the Arrians in so saying you declare that you neuer read the Ecclesiasticall Histories presuming notwithstanding to write against these Articles which are in maner nothing els but certayne obseruations therof Reade Socrates li. 2. ca. 32. and not onely li. 4. ca. 27. and Sozomenus li. 6. ca. 37. but specially Theodoret li. 4. ca. 32. who as a Catholike Bishop of purpose to take from the Arrians that vayne bragge of theirs sheweth that the Gothes were first Catholikes and not as you say first conuerted by the Arrians but onely by false informations and to much trusting of their Bishop Vlphilas béeing another Balaam ledde out of the way You talke also of the Nations that were coÌ„uerted by the Donatists Nouatians Pur. 337. But we shall know your Histories authors hereafter Againe you say And it is also manifest by Histories Ar. 3. that the Grecians whoÌ„ the Papists count no part of their church but Schismatikes conuerted the Moscouites first of all Did the Grecians conuert them since their Schisme O great Historian The truth is there was great emulation then in the Grecians against the Latins but not schisme nor heresie as yet nor long after and therefore of our Church they were then Howbeit it is not the true faith nor our religion as you say truely which the Moscouites haue but such as they them selues did list to receiue with many qualifications and modifications of their owne such was the fruite of the Grecians emulation and such is the necessitie that S. Peter cast the nette But if Histories fayle you yet one demonstration ex per se notis you haue to proue that not we but you conuerted all true Christian Nations Ar. 2. And what is that If the Papist can proue that we hold not the same faith and trueth vnto which the Apostles conuerted the Nations we refuse to be called the Church or Congregation of Christ The Papist proueth to omitte a 1000. others of his proufes that you be Heretikes and therefore hold not the same faith c. by the testimonie of that which your selfe confesse to be the true Church of Christ here cap. 2. and cap. 3. Againe We are members witnesse your Separation here Dem. 3. Ar. 2.3 of that Church which conuerted all Landes in the earth that are conuerted to the true Religion of Christ and we affirme that the Apostles taught none other faith in steed of true Christianitie but that which we hold as we are readie to proue by the word of God Witnesse here cap. 8. Where all your absurd Deprauations of Gods word are answered and not that onely but also shewed by the expresse word of God among other thinges that the Sacrament of Confirmation went euery whither together with the Apostles Gospell as the chiefest point of Christianitie Ar. 3. pag. 145. But no maruaile of your audacitie to say we are readie to proue it considering that you are bold to conclude of this saying thus I haue shewed that our church holding the true Doctrine of the Apostles is that which conuerted all Nations to true Religion Then belike all those Nations were and are of your Religion and you will be content to be tryed by them as by Afrike for example whose Religion we know by Tertullian S. Cyprian S. Optatus S. Augustine c. Or if you haue better Monumentes of any other Nations Religion name it and let vs try it betwene vs. But whosoeuer séeth here cap. 3. how you are faine to charge the true Church the Primatiue Church with erring may easily coniecture what you dare doe Motiue 17. 11. Britannie Well we be English men and therefore in a seuerall Demaund I name our Countrie England or Britannie vnto you Specially because the Prophetes as you know speake much of the conuersion of Ilands expresly and namely of such Ilands as were farthest of As also because there are extaÌ„t such monumeÌ„ts of our Ilands conuersion and religion in Tertullian Origen S. Hierome S. Chrysostome S. Gregory the Pope with many other like and specially in the History of our owne countreyman S Bede But here Fulke telleth such English men that list not to be deceiued Pur. 346. but to see into what faith all Nations were conuerted that were turned by the Apostles that they were better to consider the word of God the Historie of the Acts of the Apostles and biddeth vs of so many Nations there recorded to name one Pur. 166.332 vnto which Purgatory or praying and sacrificing for the dead was taught You are profoundly seene in the Scriptures I perceiue by this Why was the Actes of the Apostles written to shew into what faith all Nations were conuerted that were turned by the Apostles Nay is there so much as any mention of the twelue Apostles preaching to any nation of the Gentiles No syr that booke was written to shew onely the beginning of the Church according to the Prophets to wit at Hierusalem and among the Iewes and the taking of it froÌ„ them for their deserts and geuing of it to the Gentils euen froÌ„ Hierusalem the head of the Iewes to Rome the head of the Gentiles And there S. Luke endeth it not caring to tel so much as the fulfilling of that which our Lord had foretold Act. 27. to S. Paule in whose person this traÌ„slation was wrought and not in S. Peters nor any others of the Twelue for causes to long to be here rendred Caesari te oportet assistere Thou must stand before the Emperour Because his purpose was no more but to shew the new Hierusalem of the Christians and so to leaue them to it to know what are the particulars that the Apostles taught And so withall you haue one of those Nations named in the Actes and that no common one â—o wit the Romanes which receiued of the Apostles not only the Article that you require but also all the rest which at this time it hath neither you béeing able by Scripture or otherwise to proue the contrarie so muche as in any one and we prouing it both a particulars and in the totall summe partly by Scriptures partly by other vnauoydable demonstrations Well for all this trigiuersation by which you sée what you haue wonne you will yet be content to be tryed by our Britannie Ar. 49. For you confesse that the Church of the Brytans or Welchmen before Augustine came in to conuert the Englishmen Anno 597. continued in the faith of Christ euen from the Apostles time Pur. 332. so that
of Iamnia for the which God suffered c 2. Mac. 12. ver 32.40 thē to be ouerthrowen after Pentecost by the souldiers of Gorgias And then Iudas sent that money to those vnspotted Priests at Ierusalem to offer Sacrifice for their sinne The chiefe of which Priests in the absence of Iudas him self were his brethren Ionathas and Simon and not Menelaus nor any of those other Apostataes You might haue learned by those bookes that the succession of the true Pontifices or High Priestes for that time was this a 2. Mac. 3. ver 1. 2. Ma. 4. ve 7.10.14.26 2. Ma. 4. ve 33 34. 2. Ma. 5. ve 5.7.9 Onias e 1. Mac. 2. ver 1.70 Mathathias f 1. M. 3. v. 1. 1. M. 9. v. 18 Iudas i Ionathas k Simon And that these others a 2. Mac. 3. ver 1. 2. Ma. 4. ve 7.10.14.26 2. Ma. 4. ve 33 34. 2. Ma. 5. ve 5.7.9 Iason b 2. Mac. 4. v. 24.29 2. Ma. 13. Menelaus c 2. Ma. 4. ver 29.41 Lysimachus g Alcimus were but Antipontifices or false vsurpers against these to wit a 2. Mac. 3. ver 1. 2. Ma. 4. ve 7.10.14.26 2. Ma. 4. ve 33 34. 2. Ma. 5. ve 5.7.9 Iason the author of the Apostasie from the Law against his brother Onias and secondly Menelaus against the same a 2. Mac. 3. ver 1. 2. Ma. 4. ve 7.10.14.26 2. Ma. 4. ve 33 34. 2. Ma. 5. ve 5.7.9 Onias and thirdly Lysimachus brother to Menelaus After the Apostasie thus begun that liuely Image of Antichrist king d 1. Mac. 1. 2. M. 5. v. 11 Antiochus Epiphanes taketh Ierusalem martyreth the Law-kéepers finally setteth vp in the Temple the abhomination of Desolation being a Statuee of Iupiter Against him his riseth the foresaide e 1. Mac. 2. ver 1.70 Mathathias and after him his sonne f 1. M. 3. v. 1. 1. M. 9. v. 18 Iudas Machabeus who repurged the Temple the same day thrée yeres that it was polluted Anno 148. And the next yere Antiochus dyeth his sonne Antiochus Eupator succéedeth with him striueth for the kingdome g Demetrius Soter An. 151. to whom fled the wicked of Israel and Alcimus their Capteine qui volebat fieri Sacerdos to complayne of Iudas g 1 Mac. 7. ver 1.5.9 1. Mac. 9. ver 54.55 Which Alcimus dyed of Gods hand the next yere after the killing of Iudas i 1. M. 9. ve 31.10 v. 18.13 v. 23. and could neuer get Ierusalem the Temple but alwayes after the repurgation it continued in the gouernmēt of Iudas and of Ionathas after him and then of his other brother k 1. Mac. 13. v. 8.36.41.43 Simon Of whose Priesthood also High priesthood the text is playne in their seuerall places here noted in the margine I wil recite the wordes that are written of the last * 1. Mac. 13. ver 42. The yere 170. the people of Israel began to write in their Court-rolles and Records thus Anno primo sub Simone Summo Sacerdote magno Duce Principe Iudaeorum The first yere vnder Simon the High Priest the great Duke and Prince of the Iewes Certaine other poyntes of your grosse or rather malicious ignorance in the Scrirtures are about Antichrist As that the Church of Christ should prepare his way or worke his mysterie that his Reuelation or comming should be so soone after the beginning of the Church and so long before the consummation of the world that the Churches flying into the wildernes in his time should be to be driuen out of the sight of the wicked and knowledge of the world that his raigne should last so many hundred yeres that he should be a Succession of certayne men and not one only certaine person that the Church should be come againe out of the wildernes and yet Antichrist raigning still These are the very foundations of your new Lutheran and Caluinistical Gospell and yet no ground at all for them or any one of them in the holy Scriptures of God but onely in the weake sande of your owne blasphemons but bold asseuerations in presence of fooles who haue auerted their vnhappie yeres away from trueth and conuerted them vnto your fables Againe that the body of Christ is not offered to him selfe but thanksgiuing is offered to him for the offering of his body for vs. Pur. 316. Why Syr did not he vpon the Crosse offer his owne body as a man and a priest to him selfe as to God You noted others here cap. 4. pag. 28. and cap. 6. pag. 63. as for saying that it is not lawfull to pray to God the Sonne and there S. Fulgentius tolde you as the Fathers Créede doth that ech person of the blessed indiuiduall Trinitie Simul odoratur conglorificatur Is with other at once adored and conglorified no sacrifice neither that of Christes body whether it be vpon the Crosse or vpon the Altar béeing priuate to one but common to all thrée Agayne that you call it a vayne amplification and fond supposition Pur. 155. to extend the force of Christes death beyond the limits of his will As though it were not of force to worke any whit more then it worketh in acte as to saue so muche as one of them that shall not be saued Contrarie to this expresse Scripture He is the propitiation for our sinnes 1. Ioan. 2. and not for our sinnes onely but also for the sinnes of the whole world And contrarie to this saying of your owne in another place Pur. 34. Concerning the sufficiencie of Christes Redemption there is nothing can be spoken so magnifically but that the worthinesse thereof passeth and excelleth it Againe that to remit sinnes is proper vnto his Diuinitie As though he Pur. 26. that is to say our Sauiour Christ doth not remit sins according to his humanitie also No maruell to sée you denie this power to his ministers when you denie it to the Sonne of man him selfe Mat. 9. The people in the Gospell vnderstood him otherwise when your fathers the Scribes called it a blasphemie for any to remit sinnes but onely God and the people contrariwise séeing his mirable that he wrought to proue his and his Churches doctrine herein did glorifie God for giuing such power to men hominibus Whervpon he when the time was come gaue commission to his Apostles Ioan. 20. saying As my Father sent me I also sende you Whose sinnes you forgiue they are forgiuen them Againe that pestilent doctrine of desperation wherein you say a Pur. 274.127.128.135.283 There be sinnes for which the Church ought not to pray euen of men remayning in this life a Pur. 274.127.128.135.283 for which it is not lawfull to pray a Pur. 274.127.128.135.283 which by the mercy of God are not pardonable for a Pur. 274.127.128.135.283 it is false that so long as men are in this world they maye
of God if you can You shall not compell vs to tell you where when or how your heresie came in It chaufeth him that we shew so plaine an euidence against his side he can not shew the like against vs and therefore he is faine to flie againe to his cold exception of onely Scripture as though to iustifie our doctrine by the Apostles and that so sensibly were not ynough But most ridiculous of all it is to sée him come in with this exception where D. Allen alleaged TertulliaÌ„ for this rule Pur. 4 Ar. 42 That doctrine saith Fulke which is first agreable to Tertullians rule is vndoubtedly true and that which is later is false But how shall the first doctrine be knowen but by the word of God wherein all the doctrine of God is taught Tert. 〈…〉 praesc Tertullian there hath an other rule against such heresies as presumed Inserere se aetati Apostolicae To say that their founders liued in the Apostles time But this our rule he giueth against all such as rise any time after as Aerius Luther Caluin c. bidding vs then to coÌ„sider what was taught beléeued immediatly before they arose for the vndoubtedly is the truth and their later doctrine is falshood Now then how ridiculous is it for Fulke to run from Tertullians meaning yet to pretend that he agréeth to Tertullians Rule The same rule with an amplification also Antiq … Dem. in the same meaning doth likewise VinceÌ„tius LirineÌ„sis geue to wit If any Noueltie arise at any time yea preuaile so much afterward in processe of time as to make an vniuersall corruption so that almost no countrey of Christendome be frée froÌ„ it as this marchant boasteth at this day of the most of Europe EnglaÌ„d Scotland Ireland Ar. 3. Infra Dem. 〈…〉 FrauÌ„ce Germany Denmark Suetia Bohemia Polonia a great number also in Spaine Italy that then we looke vnto Antiquitie that is to the time before such noueltie preuailed before it arose as what was taught beléeued immediatly before Luther beganne these innouations And therefore alike ridiculous it is that he saieth We refuse not the rule of Vincentius Lirinensis Pur. 3â—… concerning Antiquitie so you can proue that it hath God to be the Author the Prophetes and Apostles As for witnesses vnder this antiquitie we passe not for them Why man The rule that you receaue proueth it The Apostles I say to be the Authors of our solemne prayer for the dead in the holy Masse and of any other such article because it hath such antiquitie as I haue now said and as Vincentius meant And so much vpoÌ„ the Rule of finding out the first authors of any doctrine and the same therefore to be hereticall or not finding them and the same therefore to be Apostolicall Whither is to be referred that Rule also of D. Allens that such as commonly by Christian people be named Heretikes Names dem 7.8 alwayes proue in the ende to be heretikes in deede notwithstanding their craking of Gods word Wherevnto Fulkes exception is the selfe same againe saying Ar. 65. The true Christians at this day being of the Papistes which after a sort are named Christians called heretikes and in reproche Protestantes and Caluinistes in that their faith agreeth with the word of God proue themselues in deede to be true Christians and no heretikes ij Against the Apostles Traditions TraditioÌ„s Dem. 29. Pur. 362. Now let vs heare how he maketh his saide exception also against the Traditions of the Apostles Thus he speaketh M. Allen referreth the institution of Prayer and Sacrifice for the dead to the tradition of the Apostles Of whom will he be afeard to lye when he fathereth such a blasphemie vpon the Apostles Soft man be good to D. Allen for their sakes that followe For you your selfe goe forward in the same place and say But who is witnesse that this is the tradition of the Apostles Tertullian Cyprian Augustine Ieronym and a great many more This you could not and therfore doe not deny but come in with your stale exception saying But if it be lawfull for me once to pose the Papistes I would learne why the Lorde woulde not haue this doubtlesse institution plainely or at leastwise obscurely set forth by Mathew Marke Luke or Paule which all haue set forth the storie of the institution of the Sacrament If it were not meete at all to bee put in writyng why was it disclosed by Tertullian Cyprian Pur. 387. Augustine c Likewise in an other place If prayer for the deade was appoynted by the Apostles commaundement why is there neuer a worde thereof in their writinges If I were disposed to pose you this question woulde make you clawe your poll a hundred tymes before you coulde imagine any collourable aunswere for right aunswere you shall neuer be able to make In déede a doughtie question it is As though if a Christian can not answer euery why of the Infidel our Religion therfore is straight in hazard Ar. 48. It may trouble a wise maÌ„ to answer al the questions that a foole caÌ„ propound you say your self And yet neither you nor any other Infidell shall euer finde the learned to séeke It is for your religion to be to séeke of answers because it began but yesterday and is neither yet throughly shaped But the Catholike which is the only Christian Religion comming of God so many hundred yeres sithence continuing hath bene by our forefathers and the holy Ghost so sifted to our hands that the answere is alwayes ready afore the question be demaunded Briefly therfore S. Augustine one of our Masters and Doctors in Christ hath taught vs if we be posed about the Churches order in Baptisme to answere Au. dâ— op that Serie Traditionis scimus By the course of tradition we know what things are to be done therein although they be not expressed in the Scriptures and that for breuities sake So likewise being posed about the order of this other SacrameÌ„t to answere Quia multum erat c. Au. Eâ— ad Iaâ— cap. 6 Because it was much for the Apostle to signifie in his Epistle to the Corinthians the whole order of the action that the vniuersall Church through all the world obserued therefore hauing saide somewhat of the same Sacrament yea and as much as all the Euangelistes by and by he added And when I come 1. Cor I will prescribe the rest of the orders Vnde intelligi datur saith S. Augustine And thereby we may vnderstand that whatsoeuer is not varied in any varietie of vsages was of his prescribing This is our answere and you knew it partly before For you say I know the Papistes will flye to those words of the Apostle Pur. 3â— The rest I will set in order when I come And good reason S. Augustine teacheth vs so to do And what say you to him for it
a stone falling from an high although it be most properly said tendit in centrum terrae yet is it well said also tendit in superficiem terrae as in order to the center wherevpon in saying it tendeth to the superficies we do in déede say it tendeth to the center I know some Catholikes in answering to this obiection do say that the Apostle meaneth such inuocation as tendeth immediatly to the last end that is to god so do graunt accordingly that it is beleuing in God alone wherof he speaketh which is a sufficiēt answer to the obiection But I cōsidering that he speketh of Christ as mediator therfore as mā haue said what I think most agreable to the text As for your iangling there without allegations that if Saints be inuocated then God alone knoweth not the hearts of al men Pur. 451. and God only is not to be worshipped and serued and Christ is not our only Mediator and aduocate Where you say this to vs now whom you denie to be the true Church and to S. Ambrose with others of old whō you confesse to haue bene the true Church notwithstāding so you must say it likewise to S. Iohn for inuocating the holy Angels Apoc. 1. and to God himself for making an Angell to be worshipped Apo. 3. as more at large I told you in the 6. chapter to the Angell also that in his golden censer offereth our prayers making suche a perfume of them before God Supra pag. 42. by meanes of his incense mingled with them Apo. 8. To the 24. Seniors also which semblably haue phialas adoramentorum quae sunt orationes Sanctorū swéete odours that is to say our praiers in boules for the purpose singing accordingly praises to Christ in the person of all tribes tongues people nations Apoc. 5. Finally to all which in the holy Scripturs recommend others to God or desire to be recōmended of others If you wil not quarrel with these likewise you must let fall your suite against the former and confesse that it is nothing against one mediator to god thogh we are haue neuer so many mediators so that al make suite to God by him Nothing also against god alone to be worshipped so that we worship none but for him Nothing finally against God alone to know our hearts so that all others know them by him For otherwise your argumēt procedeth aswel against Chirst the man that neither he is to be worshipped 1. Tim. 2. nor knoweth the hartes of men For as he hath it by the gift of God so his Saintes likewise by gifte haue it in their degrée So much of praier now to fasting Fasting About which you haue again two textes Thus you say to D. Allen You are they that attend to spirites of error doctrines of diuels forbidding to marry Pur. 391.20 22. Ar. 20.93 and absteining or cōmanding to absteine frō meates which God hath created to be receiued with thanks giuing 1. Tim. 4. There is the brande marke of Romish religion that all the water in Tiberis nor in the Ocean sea shal not be able to wash out Well lustily crowed But soft a little you shall sée me straight draw inough and inough againe euen out of your owne puddle to wash al sufficiently In the third chapter I haue recorded your own words Supra pag. 10. how Aerius taught that Fasting-daies are not to be obserued And how Iouinian taught that fasting and abstinence from certayne meates profite litle or nothing at all Ar. 45.46 And that for this cause S. Epiphanius and S. Augustine counted Aerius for an Heretike as S. Augustine counteth Iouinian likewise for no better for that he said Au. Her 82 de Ec. dog ca. 68. Nec aliquid prodesse That fastes and abstinence from certaine meates do not profite any thing or as we haue in another place for that he did beléeue nil meriti accrescere That it is no increase of merite to them that for loue to chastise their bodies do absteine from wine or flesh Of that iudgment were these Fathers and yet they were if you remember your owne confession since the second Chapter of the true Church and in high fauour with God And therfore this is not such a marke in Romish religion but that it may be currant inough How much more considering that you confesse further Pur. 75. 1. Cor. 9. and say In deede S. Paule cōmaundeth and by his example commendeth christian chastisemēt of mens bodies by abstinence and fasting and that for daunger of eternall damnation Is not here then gret néed of all Tiberis yea and of all the Occean sea Well then whom what doth S. Paule meane there The Manichées the Tacianistes other such Heretikes of whō I noted more in the sixt Chapter which said that certayne meates were the creatures of the diuell Mark the words and conferre them together To absteine from the meates which God hath created And why is that an error and a doctrine of the diuels because euery creature of God is good and nothing is to be reiected And therfore S. Augustine answering the Manichées as I do now the Protestants noted in like maner vpon the very words Aug. cōtra Faust li. 30 ca. 6. that there is much difference betwene them that abstein from meates for a sacred signification as they in the old Testament or for chastising of the body as now the Catholikes and them that absteine from meates which God hath created dicendo quod eos deus non creauit saying that God did not create them Therefore the former is the doctrine of the Prophetes and of the Apostles the later of the lying diuels Your other text is for Iouinian agaynst the merite of fasting If Iouinian taught Ar. 46. that fasting abstinence from certayne meates and other bodily exercise of them selues profite litle his doctrine agreeth with S. Paule 1. Tim. 4. but if he taught as he is charged that such things profite nothing at all we agree not with him in that opinion You would fayne wipe your hands of Iouinians heresie but it will not be the brandmarke is imprinted to déepe it wil not out For his heresie was as you heard euen now that Fasting abstinence is not more meritorious then eating with thanks giuing So S. Augustine meaneth Merites when he chargeth him to haue taught Nec aliquid prodesse That they profite nothing as by another place I haue told you more playnly And as in the same place in the very next article of his heresy he chargeth him that Meritis adaequabat To the merites of chast and faythfull matrimonies he made equall and not more meritorious as the Catholikes did and do the virginitie of Nunnes and the continence of the mansexe in holy persons that choose the single life S. Paules wordes to Timothée are these Exercise thy selfe vnto Religion or godlines For bodily exercise is profitable
24. but kéepe still in the visible euerlasting Church that visibly commeth of me beginning at Hierusalem 4. Rising after Motiue 19. Article 11. Fourthly I require them to shewe any beginning of our Church other then the beginning of Christes Church at Hierusalem Act. 2. As we shew and the world séeth the beginning of their companie now of late by Luther who afore was one of vs nor he onely but all that he drew away after him So that no man can say they were afore that inuisible Protestants because it is so euident that they were visible Papists And to these two or either of them Fulke answereth nothing I require them moreouer in the same Demaund to shewe so much as any first beginner of any one Article of our doctrin so as he receiued it not at the handes of his Predecessors and they of theirs and so forth euen vp to the Apostles As we shew that Luther began his new Articles of him selfe and receiued them not at any mans hands And also if any of the same Articles had in old time any patrone as Aerius agaynst praying for the dead that he likewise in his time was the first beginner of it and receiued it not of his Elders but that his Elders held the contrary of his Article so that his Article euidently was of him selfe and not of the Apostles Hovv this iiij and xxxviij Demaund doe differ I do not here charge them with such Articles as they were of the Church then condemned for heresies for that is enough of it selfe against them whether they were then first begon or afore and therfore I haue of that a seueral Demaund num 38. but as they were then first begunne which of it selfe is enough to shew that they were not receiued from the Apostles whether they were condemned of the Church then for Heresies or no. Now of these matters there are two long Treatises betwene D. Allen and Fulke first in the booke of Articles Art 11. pag. 35. to 47. Secondly in the booke of Purgatorie lib. 2. ca. 13. and 14. pag. 387. to 424. In which places the olde Heresies that they charge one another withall I reserue to their proper place in the Demaund aforesaide as also the chaunges that he sayth some Popes to haue made to the 45. Demaund What then belongeth to this Demaund First touching the argumentes or consequences secondly touching the antecedents The 1. Arg. The one argument is this Our first Authors can not be named Ergo they were none other but the Apostles His first answere is that it followeth not And one while he doth nothing but chafe at vs for it saying Must we finde out the authors of Heresies Pur. 391. Nay iustifie them your selues by the worde of God if you can c as I noted here cap. 7. pag. 79. Another while he will answere it with a witty example of the common wealth saying Must the Magistrate either iustifie a theefes possession or els bring out the author where he had it Nay the theefe must bring out good proofe how and by whō he came by such goods or els he is worthy to be serued like suche a one If that would serue we bring so good proofe for the Article of praying for the dead wherof you there intreat that your selfe confesse we stole it not but that we receiued it from hand to hand of our Auncetors ca. 3. whom your selfe confesse to haue bene the true Church of Christ cap. 2. Will you then quit vs with your witty example charge Christes Church to be a théefe But you confesse cap. 3. pag. 19.20.21 that she telleth you how she came by it to wit by the Scripture and Tradition of the Apostles And moreouer howe your friend Aerius would haue stolen it from hir as now your grandsire Luther would steale it from hir heire What Magistrate after al this wil admit the théefe to pleade against the lawfull heire in such childish maner as you do hauing nothing neither to disproue the possession or the Euidēces of the heire nor to bring as Euidence for your selfe as by my answers in the chapters aforegoing it is most manifest Pur. 388. Againe you say the first author of euery heresie can not be named Where you recken ten and say These and a hundred more heresies shal they be thought to haue their heresie from Tradition of the Apostles if the first author of them can not be named For example There was one heresie of them that were called Acephali because there was no head knowen of them Where haue you that cause I Nicenū 2. con pa. 62. tomo 3 Nicep li. 16 ca. 27. finde that Seuerus B. of Antioch was their head whose name was Seuerus Acephalus And againe that they were but a piece of the Eutichians whose head was Eutyches as the Puritanes whose special head we be not certayne of are a piece of the Caluinists In such sort to shew the author is enough or also to shew the beginning it selfe for that is the cause why we séeke for the author to shew the beginning Which againe is shewed euē by this that the primitiue name of Christians would not serue them but they must haue new names to be called by that I say declareth that they began after the beginning And so we can shew the authors also of the other nine Heresies that you name which also your selfe do in naming of them and of all other if it were worth the while as partly you may sée noted in M. Rishons Table And in no such sort can you shew our first authors And so I am now come to your second answere wherein you denie our Antecedent For you say Pur. 402.413 If any man or men were the authors of our faith as it fareth with the Popish faith we should be iniurious vnto them if we did not acknowledge our founders as they do some of theirs Tute Lepus es pulpamentum quaeris You make D. Allen to be that same non plus of Cambridge Pur. 64. who when he lacked an argument said he would dispute ex concessis You are he euen your selfe Do we acknowledge any founders of our faith but the Apostles of Christ Ar. 47. Agayne you say Thus we haue noted to you the names of diuers Heretikes which first preached certayne Articles of your doctrine Those notes you meane wherewith you noted here cap. 3. pag. 24. the confessed true Church aswell as vs which I haue cleane wyped out cap. 6. pag. 57.58 and will wype away the rest likewise here in the 38. Demaund Ar. 39. Pur. 389. Againe for the first beginning of one particulare you say It can not be proued out of any authentical writer or by any credible author that any before Tertullian who was almost two hundred yeres after the incarnation of Christ eyther named or allowed prayer for the dead or that it was vsed in the Church Tertullian him selfe flourishing
his doctrine But cleane contrarie we finde so playnly for the Pope and for euery poynt of his doctrine that you are faine to put the reuelation of Antichrist and the disparition of the Church here cap. 2. at the very time of our conuersion For which cause also you refuse as we saw before to be tryed by Bedes historie Pur. 333. telling our countreymen that they were better to consider the Acts of the Apostles and saying in another place that you waye not worth a slye that which D. Allen telleth out of Beda For who séeth not there our Religion most playnly and namely for (a) Beda hi. li. 1. ca. 24. Greg. li. 12. epist 15. the Popes authoritie and (b) Beda li. 1. ca. 25.27.29 Masse the very poynts that your Saxon Homilies do impugne But what saye we then to those godly monuments Who can not say and sée that if they were such as you make them they should not all this while be kept vnprinted neither should that which was printed so soone and so diligently haue bene called in againe for why either they conteine not suche matter as you report or they be but of some of these late Wiclesistes making such as by your owne saying are yet common to be seene Disproue my coniecture if it be wrong Ar. 34. and then you shall sée whether I can reply 10. 12. Myracles and Visions Unto these two Demaunds I couple two others of Myracles Motiue 5.6.7 and of Uisions noting that the very Scriptures do by them commend vnto vs Christ him selfe his Apostles with their successors the conuerters of all Nations and their doctrine and saying accordingly that the Miracles and visions of our Church are infinite Pur. 166.331.333 Greg. Dial. li. 4. ca. 24. Et Epist l. 7 ep 30. li. 9. ep 58. mora l. 27. c. 6. in Iob. 36. Damas ser de defūctis Beda hist li. 1. c. 31. l. 3. c. 13. li. 4. c. 21. li. 5. c. 13. alleaged also by the Doctors against the Iewes also Paynims to conuert them to Christ Wheras the Protestants haue not all this while bene able so much as to heale a lame horse though Luther and Caluine as we reade in their liues namely set out in French attempted wonders Now what saith Fulke to this The examples out of Gregorie Damascene Bede you may spare for your frendes there is none of vs that maketh great account of them Againe I force litle what Augustine our Apostle of whose Miracles and holines S. Gregorie also whose Monke he was doth testify as also of his learning Hebrew psalters written with his owne hand which you count a high poynt c. wrought to confirme his errors neither do I waye worth a flye that long tale you tell out of Beda of him that had his cheynes fallen of in Masse time that credulous and superstitious age had many such fayned Myracles Againe You leape but 600. yeres from Christ to Gregories Dialogues from which time I wil not deny but you may haue great store of such stuffe as you haue miracles now in Flaūders of the honest woman of the old Bayly in London Happy it were for you and you were so honest Neither when she was in Heresie was she vnhonest for ought that I haue hard and the Miracle euen as I tell it in my Motiues is most gloriously knowen at Bruxelles You should haue better played the Doctor of Diuinitie if you could haue informed the simple how to know fained Miracles from vnfained and why Miracles vnfained may not be after S. Gregories time aswell as before You will tell them as here cap. 2. that straight after his time was the Reuelation of Antichrist Pur. 336.338 and that these were and are his lying signes and wonders 2. Thes 2. such as errours had alwaies great plentie to establish them withall This is the very bones and marrow of your new Gospell and yet all worm-eaten and rotten For first what Scripture telleth you that after the Reuelation of Antichrist supposing it at that time whiche you wold haue there shal be none but fained Miracles Apoc. 11. telleth me the cleane contrary Secondly why cannot you for the defence of Christ his true Miracles against the Infidels discouer the fainednes of Antichrist his wonders whereas we discouer the lying of all fond Miracles which sundry errours though not in such great plentie haue pretended Thirdly what Scripture telleth you that the time of Antichrists reuelation was so long agoe It telleth me the cleane contrary as I haue most euidently declared cap. 8. pag. 125. Discouering therewithall your grosse falsation of the Scripture to racke it to your blasphemous purpose A wise Reuelation that was yet so many hundred yeres hidden and the partie reueled taken yet for Christ his owne Uicare Consider their absurdnesse No no syr you that be mysticall Antichristes may of fooles be mistaken and thought to be the Ministers of Christ Iesus but your Lord in proper person shall shew himselfe openly ynough and expressely against the onely Christ our Lord and Sauiour Iesus not so much as desiring to be thought of his side Fourthly what say you then at the least to our infinite Miracles afore S. Gregories time as those whiche S. Augustine De Ciuitate Dei li. 22. ca. 8. reherseth to the Paganes wrought by the Relikes of the first Martyr S. Steuen after many particulars euen six Resuscitations of the dead saying generally Si enim Miracula sanitatum vt alia taceam modò velim scribere quae per hunc Martyrem id est gloriosissimum Stephanum facta sunt in colonia Calamensi in Nostra plurimi conficiendi sunt libri For if I would write but the Myracles of healings to omitte the others which by this Martyr that is by the moste glorious S. Stephen haue bene wrought but in two Cities Calama and Hippo where his familiar friende Possidonius and him selfe were Bishoppes very many bookes were to be made What Scripture haue you agaynst these Myracles Either you must remoue the comming of Antichrist so muche higher which a litle thing would make you to do or els you must bring your blind followers some text that testifieth his lying Myracles to go also so long before his comming and the workers of them for him to be the very Martyrs and ministers and true Church of Christ him selfe For els how will you nowe defend that our Church hath no true Myracles Ar. 85. but the power of Antichrist in lying signes and wonders As for your censure of Myracles and Uisions that what soeuer is consonant to the word of God is to be receiued Pur. 163.333 that which is not agreable therewith is to be detested although an Angell from heauen were the bringer of it as though these were agaynst the trueth of God vttered in the holy Scriptures All this hangeth but vpon the twyned thréede of your owne poore worde though you say neuer
yet to couer it as you hope Ar. 96. Pur. 423. For there were manye more Heresies at the firste preaching of the Gospell in and immediatelye after the Apostles time then at the laste restoring of the publike preaching thereof vnto the worlde in our dayes when the Gentiles continued constant and the Iewes without schisme in their errours This is iumpe as I saye in my 35. Demaund That you be not able to alleage anye excuse for your diuision into so many Sectes which the Arrians Donatistes and other olde Heresies might not as well alleage for excuse of their diuisions Aug. de agone Christi ca. 29. and so when S. Augustine noteth that as Donatus went about to diuide Christ euen so he him selfe is of his owne Donatistes diuided euery day into sundry pieces to tell him as you do vs that also in the Apostles time the professours of Christianitie were rent and torne into an hundred Sectes and Heresies You want but that whiche is soone had we know figures and prophetes of another olde Testament and miracles of healing the diseased of all sortes of raysing the dead and such other petite matters to make demonstration that Donatus then or Luther now is another Christ and then we must be forced to graunte that you are as the Apostles and they as you And yet for all that I thinke we should not be forced to graunt that you haue the trueth but rather it would folow per impossibile that the Apostles had not the truth But it is well that the Apostles were not the cause of those Sectes and Diuisions no more then we now their heires be cause of your Sectes and Diuisions Your owne Diuiding of Christ whiche is the Apostles and ours by Senioritie in right possession is the meritorious cause of them as S. Augustine told the Donatistes And the efficient cause is your denying of all Catholike Principles and holding of Onely Scripture and that but so much as you liste of your owne heades and to be interpreted by euery ones priuate fantasie which you call the Spirite Finally your Articles do fitte them all very well in so much that their Sectiones lightly be not made by going from any Article of yours but from some more Articles of ours as the Anabaptistes from baptizing of Infantes from lawfull swearing c. If the case had bene thus with the Apostles the world had neuer beléeued them Ar. 27. 40 They neuer afore now Next after this I note that the Protestantes were neuer in the world before our time Fulk saith With the Apostles Euangelistes and Prophetes we consent whollie in all pointes of Doctrine No not in one point at all vnles it be such a one as with vs also you consent in as I haue shewed cap. 8. and much lesse wholly in all pointes He saith further With Iustinus Irenaeus Cyprianus Athanasius Hilarius Ambrosius Augustinus c. Gildas we consent though not wholly in all pointes of Doctrine yet in the cheefe and most substantiall articles of faith Neither with them in any one pointe in maner aforesaid as I haue shewed cap. 9. Howbeit in this your owne saying you confesse my purpose For Vigilantius Iouinianus c. did muche more agrée with them in the cheefe and most substantiall Articles which you meane and yet were not of their Church could not be nor would not be If you say that you were then in those Heretikes Vigilantius and Iouinianus for I trow you will not say that you were in Aerius the Arrian nor in the Manichées nor Pelagians though they were your parteners in some pointes as we saw erewhile in the 38. Dem. that is a plaine confession that you were not in the Church of the Fathers Yet also that you were not in those Heretikes is plaine by this because they held no more of yours then the Fathers noted them for who would haue noted them also for denying prayer for the dead as they noted Aerius for it if they had denyed it as he did If you say that you were in that Church which went out of sight an 607. as you say here cap. 2. it is a chimera onely of your owne imagination you can not shewe any companie of Christians that departed from that Pope Bonifacius the thyrd and his adherents much lesse that they were Protestantes You come lower to Bertramus Marsilius de Padua Ar. 27.30.33.34.75.77.95.97 Pur. 420.341.344.345 Ioannes de Gauduno al. de Gaudano you call him Bruno Andeganensis Wickleue Iohn Hus and Hierome of Praga with their Bohemians c. as Berengarius Apostolici Waldo with his French Waldenses and Pauperes de Lugduno and Albigenses the Grecian Image breakers the maried Canons somtime in England and Emperours that defended their maried Priestes Of these you say as you did of the Fathers We consent with them in the chiefe and most substantiall articles of faith sauing that in one place where you passe some of them ouer with silence least we should obiect that they held with you but in some one or two pointes Wal. tom 3. ca. 7.8.9 Melan. epi. ad Fred. Micon there you say But Wickleue I wene you will not denie but he was of our Church and Religion Against this ignoraunt wene of yours the Catholike may reade Thomas Waldensis that excellent writer our Countreyman the Protestant may reade Philip Melancthon who report sundrie articles of Wickleues which you your selfe will detest namely humaine merites as Pelagius helde them in so much that Waldensis doth exhort Catholikes to say at euery worde the grace of God as nowe we sée vsed in our language because Wickleue did teache his to haue alwayes in their mouthes merita propria their owne merites And Melancthon saieth Prorsus non intellexit nec tenuit fidei iustitiam Verely he did not vnderstande nor holde the iustification of faith He nameth fiue other pointes of like weight and besides them all Deprehendi in eo multa alia errata ex quibus iudicium de eius spiritu fieri potest Looking in Wicklefe I found in him many other errors whereby one may iudge of his spirite Of Hus the like is written by Luther him self Luther apud Roffen ar 30. Non recte faciunt qui me Hussitam vocant Non enim mecum ille sentit They do not well that call me an Hussite For he is not of my iudgement as there he exemplifieth in the Popes Supremacie c. And how say you to the seditious article as Melancthon calleth it of both Wickleue and Hus Con. Constan Sess 8. art 15.17 touching ciuill dominion that it is lost immediately if the King doe fall into mortall sinne Hauing shewed this in them whom you thought your selfe most sure of I néede not to goe particularly through the rest which otherwise and if it were not too long I myght easilye doe to your confusion For what a poore and fowle shifte is this of yours Whether Apostolici in Bernardes time were sclaundered
damned * Fulke vvil auouch this out of Heb. v. in his Reply for euer also This is the doctrine of that beast as D. Allen doth most worthily call him for it against our Sauiours corporall death which was his onely death and that in many of his impious bookes and namely in that Catechisme which they haue ioyned with their French Bibles in the end belike that it may among fooles créepe in time into Canonicall authoritie as alreadie Luther with the Lutherans and Caluine with the Caluinistes is péere to the Apostles them selues And for touching of this doctrine it is that Fulke more zealous for Caluine then for Christ goulpeth vp such geare against D. Allen as the Reader may sée in the place falsifying also D. Allens wordes because otherwise he had no marke to shoote at as though he had said Caluine to affirme that Christ went downe into hell after his death Whereas D. Allen saith nothing of the time when he descended by Caluin but onely of the hellike torments which Caluine buildeth vpon his descending Howbeit I would aske Fulke why it is such a mysterie that Christes soule was in damnation for the time vpon the Crosse and not also and rather after his death for the time vntill his resurrection specially considering that in the Créede Crucifixus goeth before Sepultus and Descendit ad inferos followeth Sepultus as also commonly in the Scriptures the time of his Soule in hell is made concurrant with the time of his body in the graue And who séeth not thereby that the Catholikes interpretation is also most naturall and proper that after Mortuus which signifieth the separation of his body and soule by death followeth Sepultus to shewe where his body was afterwardes Descendit ad inferos to tell where his Soule was afterwardes though not in damnation according to these mens new blasphemie vntill both were conioyned againe in his Resurrection as there it followeth immediately Tertia die resurrexit a mortuis Thus I am faine to stand long vpon euery point be it neuer so absurd and impious against our Lord God him selfe and against our onely Redēption in his bloud For they can wrest the Scriptures to such poyntes also We should I thinke afore now if this poynt of Christes damnation for our Redemption had not bene by diuers Catholikes so handled to their shame haue had that other poynt likewise of some Caluinistes made more common that Christ also did despeire in God or blaspheme God or commit some other sinne against God for our Redemption Synod Gē 5. Ses 4. Ses 8. ca. 12. For I sée not but they are already come to say with that old most detestable blasphemous Heretike Theodorus Mopsuestenus master to Nestorius that he had in him fomitem peccati inclination to sinne and that he was not from his conception impeccabilis that is vnsinable considering they say he feared to be damned for euer vnlesse they will say that he was so ignorant to feare a thing that was vnpossible to befall vnto him Which yet them selues can not feare because of their Speciall faith forsooth Pur. 290.296.298 O Lord these blasphemous helhoundes are more worthy to be beaten downe with thunderboltes and so forth as Fulke knoweth how to amplifie but that afore he lacked matter It is no maruell now after this to sée this man so cold for the honor or rather so impiously set against the honor of Christes Mother As first to quit the Heluidians and Antidicomarianitae August ad Quodvult Haer. 84. Epip Haer. 78. Pur. 453. who were by the Primitiue Church condemned as Heretikes for denying her perpetuall virginitie But he notwithstanding saith As for the perpetuall virginitie of the Mother of Christ as we can thinke it is true so bicause the Scripture hath not reuealed it neither perteineth it vnto vs we make no question of it No it perteineth not vnto you to accurse old Heretikes but to ioyne with old Heretikes that perteineth vnto you and also to forge new principles as that same of Only Scripture in their fauour yea and also to contradict your selfe for the matter For but foure lines afore you say All trueth may be proued by Scripture And now of this We can thinke it is true and yet the Scripture hath not reuealed it You might with more honestie haue said that it may be proued by Scripture namely where she saith Quoniam virum non cognosco Because I know not man that is Luc. 1. Au. de san virg ca. 4. because I haue made a vow of virginitie how therfore cā I haue a child But this place you could not aleage you wot for another cause neither do I say that it proueth inuincibly her perpetuall virginitie although it so proue her vow For I know that besides her vow it should be proued that she neuer sinned against her vow nor had a dispensation of God for it Secondly you controll D. Allen Pur. 86.87 where saying that the iustest person sinneth he excepteth Christ and for his honor his mother You thinke it must then be said that he was not sauiour of his Mother and she had no neede of his saluation If you had bene a reader of S. Augustine as you be of Caluine you might haue easily remembred that he saith the very same that D. Allen doth A piece of Pelagius his heresie being that a man may liue without all sinne Au. de nat gra c. 36. he alleaged for it the example of so many iust persons commended in the Scriptures and among the rest our Lord and Sauiours Mother saying that to confesse her without sinne necesse est pietati It is necessarie for him that will not be impious Howe you woulde haue answered him we sée specially thinking you haue Scripture for her sinning because Christ said vnto her Why did you seeke me Luc. 2. Ioan. 2. c. and What to me and thee O woman c. you thinke that Christ here reproueth her and that he had done her wrong herein if she did not sinne You might do well to tell vs what were those sinnes of hers S. Augustine could not sée any there nor els where but saith playnly in his answere to Pelagius although the contrarie had bene for his vantage against him Excepting the holy Virgin Mary of whom for the honor of our Lorde I will haue no question in the worlde when we talke of sinnes Inde enim scimus for by this we know that more grace was giuen to her to ouercome sinne altogether because she was worthy to conceiue and bring forth him whom it is certayne to haue had no sinne The honor of our Lorde is by Fulke his dishonor Where also you sée that her not sinning doth not argue as after your Diuinitie that she had no nede of Christes grace Con. Tri. Ses 6. can 23. but the cleane contrarie that she had so much the more of his grace then any other
of all the Saintes as you may also sée in the Councell of Trent Another poynt of your great skil is where to supply D. Allens lacke Pur. 12. you bring forsooth the right definition or description of an Heretike and say that an Heretike is a man in the Church c. Wherof what pretie conclusions do folow you may consider as because Papistes be Heretikes with you Ministerlike conclusions of Fulke therefore they be in the Church item Anabaptistes Seruetians c. and of old the Arrians Pelagians c. againe on the contrarie side because these are not nor were not by you in the Church therefore they be not Heretikes It foloweth in your definition That obstinatly mainteineth an opinion contrarie to the doctrine of the Scriptures And then you adde Which if any of vs can be proued to doe then let vs not be spared but condemned for Heretikes We say to you the same of any of vs also But you should haue defined also who is obstinate You bring no Scripture against vs but we answere it clearely much lesse do you proue vs to be obstinate But we bring playne Scriptures against you to proue that also the doctrine of the Apostles Traditions is the doctrine of the Scriptures with very many particular pointes of controuersie expresly against you as namely that neither the Church of Christ should euer flye out of sight much lesse any thing neare the yere 607. nor Antichrist reigne so long as from that time nor the day of Iudgement to be so long after the cōming of Antichrist Againe for the Real presence This is my body and so forth And if you also goe about to answere some of our Scriptures it is no otherwise then the Arrians Pelagians c. did in old time who notwithstanding were obstinate against the truth because they yéelded not neither when the Church had giuen her sentence So do we proue you to be obstinate much more then any because you neither yéeld after sentence and also do hold that the Church hath no such authoritie to end contentions Your ignorance in so wondering at D. Allen for saying that a Christian Scholer should first beléeue and after séeke for vnderstanding I noted before cap. 10. Dem. 34. Of the like ignorance it is where you wonder to heare that the Sacrifice of the Masse is a likenesse of the Sacrifice of Christes death vpon the Crosse and say Pur. 200. that it is contrarie to the whole a See here cap. 10. Dem. 24. scope of the Epistle to the Hebrewes that there should be now any shadowes or resemblances when the body and substance it selfe is come As though we had now no Sacramentes at all Do you not know that all Sacramentes be liknesses of other things as S. Augustine whom your selfe somewhere alleage saith Si enim Sacramenta quandam similitudinem c. Aug. ep 23. Pur. 292. Sup. de 24. For if Sacramentes had not a certayne likenes of those thinges whose Sacramentes they be they should not at al be Sacraments And so you may remember that S. Paule him selfe will haue Baptisme to be a likenes or similitude of Christes death Rom. 6. buriall and resurrection As againe S. Augustine in the foresayd place noteth that it is truely sayed Christum immolari quotidie in Sacramento Christ to be sacrificed euery day in the Sacrament although he were but once sacrificed in seipso in him selfe that is in his owne visible and not sacramentall forme because of the likenes in the Sacrament to that immolation vpon the Crosse For there was visible seperation of his Body and Bloud the one from the other Here is mysticall or sacramentall seperation of the same as the sacramentall wordes doe signifie And therefore this seperation is but like to that if we attende the maner of both and yet it is the very same seperation if we attend the thinges that were and are seperated Which D. Allen vttered very aptly in these few wordes It is the selfe same in another maner Pur. 198.201 Whereunto you say that Euery boye in Oxford can tell him that by Logicke like is not the same An high point D. Allen knew it not How then did he say in another maner Did he not thereby geue you the meaning of that Logicall Principle to wit that like is not the same with the same maner But otherwise what boye hath not heard it sayd of one and the same man being chaunged by age sicknes apparell shauing c. He is like or vnlike him selfe Against so playne a declaration you could not replye and yet you must néedes say something but yet that which neither boy nor man nor your selfe can vnderstand This it is to say It is the selfe same in another maner will not helpe so long as the same respect remaineth Which same respect I pray you for I am not so quicke to vnderstand him who vnderstandeth not him selfe For who can imagine that the very same respect remaineth when the same maner doth not remayne Pur. 20.21 Againe where you attribute that to diuorsement which the Scripture in many places both a Mat. 5. Mar. 10. Luc. 16. ◠Cor. 7. deny to diuorsement and doth b Rom. 7. attribute only to death to wit to make her no wife that was a wife there you vtter your great skill in many matters As in saying that such mariage after diuorsement is dispensed withall by the Pope Item that the Popes Canon Law hath farre many more causes of diuorsement then for adulterie which only Christ alloweth and we Mat. 5. quoth you As though also the Canon Law allow not that onely as a cause of perpetuall diuorse in such sort that if the Adulterer become afterwardes neuer so chast yet the innocent cannot be compelled to receaue him againe But otherwise if the mans furie be such that the wife in his house is in continuall feare daunger of her life doe not you also allow her to dwell away from him vntill such time as his amendment doe appeare sufficiently Item you speake there as though Moyses iudiciall Law ought to be still obserued Leu. 20. We wish that adulterers were punished as God commaunded in his Law it followeth and then the other question of Mariages were soone answered As though the man were punished by death if he sinned against his wife with a single woman If not how then is the question of his wiues Mariage with another resolued by his punishment Such is your skill in the Law I note here your ignorance but I mislike not your moderation in saying we wish Why then doe I charge you with such an opinion of that Law For this that you there charge the Catholikes to allow dispensation for such persons to marrie as the Law of God and nature abhorreth What Law of God doe you meane but Leui. 18 Doe you thinke then that Law to binde Christians and that so straightly as neyther to
But that is so manifest to be spoken of matters of externall comelines and not of doctrine of the Sacrament as Prayers and Sacrifices that no man which vnderstandeth what diatazesthai doth signifie can doubt or make any question of it Be it so as you say But what haue you forgotten the thing wherof you speake Is it not of that Solemne prayer for the dead in the celebration of the Sacrifice That prayer we say is diatazis one of S. Paules ordinations What vnproper speach is here specially S. Augustine saying agayne in another place Aug◠ver ◠Ser. 3 Hoc enim a patribus traditum vniuersa obseruat Ecclesia This being a tradition of the Fathers that is the Apostles the whole Church obserueth and therefore it is such a thing as nulla morum diuersitate variatur when they which are departed in the cōmunion or vnitie of the body and bloud of Christ be in their place mentioned at the same Sacrifice To pray for them and to mention that for them also it is offred Thus you haue a piece of the cause why the Scriptures conteined not the whole order of celebration of the Sacramēts to wit for breuities sake And what doth that or any other cause let other writers to make mention of such things when Aerius the heretike compelled them or any other iust occasion was ministred You imagine and that deceiueth you as though the Apostles purposed to put all in writing Which if they had neither so many of them That al is not vvritten nor one of them so often would haue mentioned one thing But as the purpose of the holy Ghost in the bookes of the Olde Testament was principally to foreshew manifoldly Christ and his Church so in the bookes of the New Testament as in the gospels Ioan. 19. Luk. 24. to shew Christ euen to Consummatum est and Impleri omnia quae scripta sunt de me And in the Actes of the Apostles to shew Christes Church according to the old predictions beginning amongst the Iewes and increasing to the Gentiles yea and remouing with S. Paule from Hierusalem the head of the Iewes worthily reprobated and setting in Rome the head of the Gentiles by mercy elected And all this but as it were the first birth of the Church for Consummatum est could not be tolde by way of a Storie before the ende of the world though foretold it is the whole course I say of the Church euen to the glorious consummation thereof in the Apocalipse The other Bookes were written specially agaynst the perfidious Iewes and other false Masters of that time As likewise in euery age afterward agaynst the seuerall heresies of eche age we haue the Ecclesiasticall I say not Canonicall writers and Councels And therfore vnlesse any thing belonging to ech time be omitted in the writings of ech time no maruaile at all for the omission of other things which there was then no suche occasion to expresse This I should haue reserued to an other place but that this insolent Poser might not abide any delay Pur. 264. Now then to go forward with him I know saith he the Papists will answer that Tradition is of as good credit as the Scripture 1. Thes 2. 2. Thes 2. 1. Cor. 11. and is the word of God vnwritten as well as the Scripture is the word of God written And good reason for the Scripture it selfe so teacheth vs. But why then saith he do they not obserue all things that Tertullian in the same place affirmeth to be Tradition This Why I haue answered in the sixt Chapter Supra ◠par 1. d◠Pur. 36 Moreouer he saith Their writings are to vs the onely true testimonie of their tradition So were they not to the Thessalonians For they had of S. Paule Traditiones per sermonē per epistolam Pur. 40 Traditions partly by word of mouth partly by writing Yea he saith further When the Apostolike writing can not be shewed it is but the poynt of an Heretike to boast of Apostolike tradition So he saith to D. Allen. But to the old Fathers I hope he will be somewhat better and content to take only his exception against them as where he saith Pur. 39. ◠If Tertullian had no ground of his saying when he affirmed that Oblations for the dead came from the Apostles what ground can Augustine haue which was 200. yeres further from the Apostles time then he Againe Pur. 39 Chrisostome can no more proue that Prayer for the dead came from the Apostles then Tertullian can proue that oblation for the dead came from them Againe But where he saith Pur. 30 304. It was decreed by the Apostles that in the celebration of the holy mysteries a remembrance should be made of them that are departed He must pardon vs of crediting because he can not shew it out of the Acts and writings of the Apostles We must not beleue Chrysostome without Scripture affirming that it was ordeined so by the Apostles Howbeit sometime he is bolder yet with the Fathers for auouching this Tradition He dare not call them heretikes for it but yet he dareth to charge them with doutfulnes contradiction about it For of Chrysostome he saith Pur. 39 Chryso◠Ep. ad ◠Hom. 3 Lo M. Allen your owne Doctor confesseth it is but small helpe that can be procured by praiers almes or remēbrance of thē at the celebration of the holy Mysteries You will say that soone after he saith The Apostles that instituted such memory knew that much cōmoditie came to the dead Then see how soone he forgetteth himself when he followeth not the rule of holy scripture And againe Ar. 39. Yet did not praying for the dead so preuayle in the Primitiue Church that they durst define what profite the soules receiued thereby for Chrysostome saith Let vs procure them some helpe small helpe truly but yet let vs helpe them Likewise Augustine Aug. ◠fes lib. cap. 13. where he prayeth for his father and mother declareth how vncertayne he was of the matter One while he feareth the daunger of euery soule that dyeth in Adam An other while he beleeueth that they neede not his prayer yet he desireth God to accept the same and moue other men to remember them in their prayers Thus it is necessarie that they wander which leane vnto mens traditions without the word of God And in the same place S. Augustine in his booke De cura pro mortuis agenda wearieth him selfe and in the end can define nothing in certayne how the Saintes in heauen should heare the prayers of men on earth Such doubtfulnes they fall into that leaue the worde of God leane to traditions Although he were willing to mainteine Inuocation of Saints Pur. 317. yet he hath nothing of certentie out of the worde of God eyther to perswade his owne conscience or to satisfie them that moued the doubtes vnto him For S. Augustine De