reason is there to the contrary but that according to the rules of decency the preface and the booke whereunto it is a preface shall be conformable one to the other And yet though this be the very methode and matter good Reader of all this his long tedious preface which I thus brieflie haue laide open before thee the poore silly man the authour thereof seemeth to haue conceiued such a liking of his owne doings therein especially towards the latter ende thereof that gloriously and triumphantly hee breaketh out into wonderful complaints amplifications and exclamations against vs. Alas poore man that hee was thought hee to meete with no reader but that would graunt him all these thinges at the first asking Or thought hee that hee had so cunningly and artificially knit those things together that no man could espy the childish losenes of them From his first generall farre set and yet vnnecessary discourse of the duety of all officers hee so suddenly falleth into the next of the properties of Christes sheepe that it was great maruaile that the man â—ooke no great harme by it But hauing recouered himselfe 〈◊〉 litie speaking belike before his wittes were well come to him â—ee neuer can hit after of any thing to the purpose For not onely all his matter and woordes besides a fewe naked assertions of his of the trueth of certaine points of his religion and falshoode of ours skipping in heere and there â—here is nothing but the circumstances of application altered one of vs might far more aptly and truely haue written against them But as those things sufficiently conuince the man and his preface of grosse folly and vanitie so if we consider but howe he hath wilfully sought to abuse his reader in cyting the ancient father Irenaeus and others to persuade his reader by his authoritie to obey their prelates and traditions we shall as plainely finde in the man palpable impiety For page second he cyteth his fourth booke and forty three chapter to proue vnto vs nowe that wee must obey their Church now speaking vnto vs by their prelates because then Irenaeus tolde the heretiques a thousand and foure hundred yeares agoe and more whom indeede the pastours of the Church that then was continued soundly in the purity of the Apostolique doctrine that they were to obey the pastours of the Church that had succession from the Apostles Which any maÌ„ may see bindeth not nor teacheth vs to do the like to theirs vnlesse they could proue theirs to be such as there Irenaeus speaketh of Likewise whatsoeuer else in this preface of his to like purpose he hath alleadged out of Irenaeus Augustine Chrysostome CypriaÌ„ Hierome or the scriptures theÌ„selues is abused for that which they spake of that pure true Church of Christ and her faithfull ministers that he would drawe his reader to think to be spoken euen of the Church of Rome as it is now and hath beene of late yeares and of her prelates which are in nothing almost like either the Church or ministers that they speake of But this is not all his fault in alleadging this testimonie of Irenaeus thus to confounde the prelates and Church with the true pastours of Christ and his pure Church a thousande fower hundreth yeares agoe whereunto theirs are no more like then darkenesse is to light but that also wilfully the easilier belike to beguyle the simple reader hee concealeth that that immemediatly followeth the former words Which is this Quisâ—câ—â— ostendimus cum episcopatus successione charisma veritatis certum secuÌ„dum placitum patris acceperunt that is which as we haue shewed with the succession of their Bishoppricke according to the will and pleasure of God haue receaued the certaine gifte of trueth and so hee hauing skipt ouer those wordes which hee thought as it should seeme in his conscience would and might be denied not to fit their prelats he goeth on with that that followed these wordes saying Reliquos vero qui absistunt à principal successione quocunquè loco colliguntur suspectos habere tanquam haereticos oportet which is in English but the rest which goe from the principall succession in what place soeuer they be gathered together wee ought to suspect as heretiques Wherein euidently it appeareth he left out the former words staÌ„ding in the author in the midst betwixt the former part of the sentence and the latter here alleadged by him to make the reader beleeue that Irenaeus minde was to teach men simply to obey such prelates without exception as haue ordinarie outward and locall succession downe from the Apostles and that that kinde of succession in place and office is the principall succession that he speaketh of which who so hath not ought by and by to bee suspected of heresy But indeede take al his words together and marke them especially those which craftily he had gelded the sentence of in his quoting of them and it is most cleare that Irenaeus here teacheth obedience onely to such Bishops as succeede the Apostles in the certaine gift of trueth that by principall succession he ment nothing else but succession to the Apostles in that gift of trueth and that therefore he would haue vs to suspect all those to be heretiques that lack succession vnto them in that howsoeuer and wheresoeuer they succeede them else Which is the very cause why according to this rule we think no better of their popish bishops priests then we do what successioÌ„ soeuer otherwise they bragge of for that sure we are that long ago they are gone from this principal succession in trueth This he knew euery one would perceiue if he had faithfully cyted Irenaeus wordes as they lye and therefore hee thought best to shew how he could followe the example of that olde fox Sathan who for his purpose in like maÌ„ner mangled the 91. Psalme Math. 4. It seemeth also that these words quocunque loco colliguÌ„tur in what place soeuer they be gathered together though he recite them in latine he would faine haue smothered for traÌ„slating the rest he omits these doubtles because without any exceptioÌ„ yea euen of Rome it selfe thereby Irenaeus would teach that they ought to be suspected to be heretiques that will not obey those pastours that succeed the Apostles in the gift of truth Which indeede the Bishops of Rome hauing had so little care to doe this great while if this rule of Irenaeus may bee followed they cannot possibly escape this suspition The credit therefore of theÌ„ waying more with the writer of this preface then his owne he thought it was better thus to leese his owne by thus shamefully abusing his reader in prouing this testimony after the popish manner then once to hazard the credit of his holy fathers the popes by right faithfull and honest dealing therewith Howbeit this kinde of dealing of his may giue iust occasion to all that are wise euer hereafter to looke better to the fingers of all such fellowes then vpon their bare
that they come to them by the ordinary way by right succession of Bishops and pastours continuing in one Catholicke faith downe from Christ to this present time thus childishly begging in one piece of one short sentence these foure great points all which in this case are betwixt vs and them in question namely that their officers all of them come to their roomes by the ordinary way that they haue right succession right Bishops and pastours and sounde and Apostolicke doctrine And yet though he knew well enough that wee constantly deny all these yet to proue that they come lawfully to their offices hee onely nakedly and barely affirmeth them as though he presumed that he was and should be such a Pythagoras in the conceit of all his Readers that for him once to say it were enough and enough againe For by and by after that thus he had onely saied hauing vsed neither proofe nor colour of proofe to backe his saying hee slippeth into another matter not yet called in question Whither a visible knowen and alwaies a demonstrable personall and locall succession of Bishops pastours be necessary for the perpetuall continuāce of the Church and preseruatiō of the trueth therin And thus hee windeth frō matter to matter leauing alwaies that vnproued which hee had most neede to haue proued labouring sweating continually about the proofe of that which though it were graūted him yet he might wel enough loose his cause As for example hauing entred into the foresaid matter in maner before saied in 3. or 4. whole Chapters following he shewes how the trueth is continued in the Church by succession of pastours how profitable their ministry is to bring men to to settle them in the truth that the anciēt trodē way by Christs sheepe downe from Christ to this day that the ancient Catholicke faith that the faith which in Irenaeus and Augustines time was helde and taught at Rome had vnto their times beene continued from Christ by succession of Bishoppes and pastours is the waie and faith that a Catholicke man must liue and die in whosoeuer saieth to the contrary In which propositions no maruaile though he goe on roundly for he hath winde and weather with him none of vs gainesaies him yea these things being rightly vnderstoode wee constantly affirme and teach the same But these things being all graunted him what is hee nearer his cause seeing as yet all the sort of them neuer could nor shall bee able to proue that their pastours succeed Christ his Apostles or the ancient holy Bishops pastours that were before Irenaeus Avgustines time in teaching the same doctrine that they taught But herein is his popish subtlely that standing thus vpō these points he would haue his Reader graūt him all these that their successiō of Priests Bishops is that successiō of pastours so profitable for the continuāce of the trueth and Church that their Romish Religion that now is is that ancient way that Christs sheepe haue alwaies trod so the ancient Catholicke Religiō which in Irenaeus Augustines time they the holy pastours Bishops at Rome and else where had soundly succeeding one another from the Apostles continued in vnto that time which are things whereof not one the Pope and all his confederates shall euer be able indeede to proue and therefore it seemeth Iohn de Albine thought it good policy seeing these thinges could be got no otherwise to trie whether he could get them thus by flatte begging of them And it seemeth also that hee presumed that hee should come onely to such liberall mens dores that all these should be graūted and giuen him euen at the very first asking for alwaies after he behaues himselfe in such sort as that without all peraduenture he had them all graunted him Onely a little in his thirty seuēth Chapter belike somewhat growing ashamed of his shamelesse begging al the while before he begins to make shew that if men should be so hard harted as to deny him that their pastours doctrine and Church are sound Catholicke that he is able to proue them so to bee whither such will or no. And yet euen there when all comes to all though indeede hee bragge that he could and would but for being too tedious to his Reader iustify the rest of their doctrine by the testimony of a number of doctours holy confessours and martyrs he onely by mustering of a sort of dumbe doctours vpon the stage makes his poore Reader beleeue that in the places quoted by him they speake directly to iustify their ceremonies their Auricular Confession praier for the dead and to the dead as though these were the principall matters in controuersy betwixt them and vs. But doubtles hee knew well enough that no one of his Readers amongst an hundred would and could turne the places and so try whither the men he name make there so for him or no. For otherwise for shame he would not haue quoted them so negligently falsely and corruptly as when I come to that place I shall shew thee hee hath These thinges considered Christian Reader thou must bee very simple and haue before hand thy minde wholy forestalled with his false principles or else hee shall winne with thee little credit to his cause or disgrace to ours Howbeit seeing both his whole drift and his publishers in his preface was as it euidently thereby appeares vnder the odious names of heretiques and schismatiques to disgrace vs and the trueth that wee professe as though it were not once to be called in questiō whither they and their crue were the onely sound Catholickes and Christians in the world before I let thee proceede come to the view of his declamation made to that ende and of my answere thereunto this vpon good and most cleare ground I protest vnto thee and assure thee what brags soeuer he or any other of his fellows make of their popish and Romish Religion that now is prosessed amongst them besides all other things that can or may be saied against it it is such a Religion and their Church the vpholder thereof such a dame as is the very nurse and baude of monstrous impietie as is intolerably iniurious to the right of the good estates of all Christian Princes and their people and as lastly howsoeuer it may seeme to carry a shew of holinesse it is not so but indeede cunningly vnder the colour thereof aymeth at no marke more then to aduaunce the pride pompe and gaine of her louers The first is euident in that their doctrine of their Popes supermacy is such as that for money hee may pardon any sinne as their practise teacheth either committed or to be committed yea their verie Hedge-priestes by the authority of the power of absolution giuen vnto them vpon penaunce done how light soeuer if it so seeme good vnto them haue and doe take vpon them marueilously that way to breede immunity and impunity by their absoluing whom for
extraordinarily as he seeth need thereof is and may be such effectuall seede to beget childrē vnto God and so holesome foode to feede thē yea euen vntil they grow to a full age perfectiō in Christ Iesus that though their teachers cānot shew for the defence of their calling who alwaies successiuely in person and place haue gone before them yet euen this trueth of their doctrine doeth proue them and their people to be Apostolique Churches whereas though they could doe the other without this it were nothing And because my aduersary seemeth in this point otherwise to make great reckoning of the testimony of Irenaeus Tertullian and Augustine I will stande to their iudgement in this whither to succeede the Apostles in doctrine be not sufficient without the other locall and personall demonstrable succession and not this without that Irenaeus in his fourth booke and forty three Chapter teacheth vs onely to obey those Elders in the Church which from the Apostles with the succession of their Bishopricks haue receiued Charisma veritatis certum secundum placitum patris that is the certaine gift of trueth according to the pleasure of the father for as for all other whatsoeuer they pretend for he excepteth nothing he there immediatly sheweth that absistunt a principali successione that is they are gone from the principall succession and therefore must be suspected And Tertullian in the very same place de praescriptionibus haereticorum quoted by Albine after in his 9. Chapter immediatly after the words there cited by him wherein he calleth for personall succession hath added these Cōfingant tale aliquid haeretici c. but let heretiques deuise some such thing for after blasphemy what is not lawfull for them saieth hee but though they doe faine some such thing yet it shall nothing preuaile thē For their doctrine compared with the Apostolique doctrine by the diuersity cōtrariety thereof wil pronoūce that it hath neither Apostle nor Apostolique mā to be the authour therof For saith he as the Apostles taught not amōgst themselues contrary things so neither did Apostolique men teach contrary things to those that the Apostles taught After this sort therefore let them be prouoked by those Churches which though they cannot produce either Apostle or Apostolique man to bee the founder thereof in that they were long after planted as dayly there bee tamen in eâdem fide conspirantes non minùs Apostolicae deputantur pro consanguinitate doctrinae yet they agreeing with thē in one faith are no lesse to be reputed Apostolicke Churches then they that were planted by the Apostles What can be plainer then this to shewe that though our Churches could not satisfie his request in pleading the former succession that yet if they can shewe this that they agree with the Apostles in doctrine that they therefore are far rather Apostolicke then they that can produce the former without this And though Augustine in his 165. epistle and also in his fourth Chapter against the Manichees epistle which they call their foundation remembred by Albine cap. 6. doe there seeme to make great reckoning of personall succession yet when he had shewed of what force that and some other reasons were with him he preferres trueth indeede warranted by the scriptures before them all Wherefore what I haue saied concerning the vanitie of their brag of personall and locall succession either to iustifie theirs or to disgrace our Church or ministrie is sufficientlie proued But all this labour will Albine say I might haue spared for he spake not simplie of succession but expressely of right succession of Bishops pastours and to shew what he ment thereby he expresly added the continuance of one Catholicke faith deriued from the Apostles to our daies without the interruption of it vniuersally at anie time Moreouer I confesse that sundry times after so forcible was the trueth in this point with him that in wordes he confesseth that personall and locall succession without continuance in this trueth is not the thing that he vrgeth and yet for all this this that I haue saied of this point is not needlesse For besides that fewe of his opinion will bee brought to confesse thus much this both in others and in himselfe in sundrie Chapters following maie be obserued that when this confession is made by anie of thē it is wroong frō them much against their wils for their shew of proofes run wholy for the magnifying of personall successiō to be the marke whereby true Churches and the ministers thereof maie vndoubtedly be discerned Againe if in this he spake as hee thinkes why doeth he make so much adoe about the personall and visible succession of Bishops and pastours and neuer ioines this issue with vs to trie out soundly and throughly whither they or we haue this Catholicke and Apostolicke trueth For herein onely lieth all the controuersie betwixt them and vs and this determined the question betwixt vs were quite ended let them once therefore but proue indeed that they are in possession of this soūd trueth and that alwaies downe from the Apostles they haue continued therein if we ioyne not streight with them and repent vs hartely of our departure from them accursed be we Yea if we cannot proue by cōparing their doctrine with that which wee are most sure the Apostles taught to be both diuerse from that and contrary vnto it vnderstanding by their doctrine as wee doe that which is proper to them and wherein we are against them let vs for euer leese our credit and cause Now for the decyding and determining of this great maine cōtrouersie wee appeale to the canonical scriptures which we knowe are most fit and sufficiēt iudges herein whereunto vnles they will deserue the name of lucifugae that is of shunners of the light which for the like cause Tertullian gaue the heretiques of his time de resurrect carnis they will be contented to bring their doctrine as to the touchstone Indeede in Tertullian and Iraeneus time the heretiques as it appeares in their workes for the triall of their opinions fled from this touchstone and when they were vrged herewith they behaued themselues the likest these our aduersaries that euer I saw For Iraeneus in his third booke and second Chapter testifieth thus of them cùm ex Scripturis arguuntur in accusationem conuertuntur ipsarum quasi non rectè habeant neque sint ex authoritate quia variè sunt dictae quia non possit ex his inueniri veritas ab his qui nesciunt traditionem that is when they are reproued by the scriptures then they are turned streight into an accusation of them as though they were not right nor were of authority both because they are so set downe as that variably or diuersly they may be taken and because by them the trueth cannot be found out by those that are ignoraunt of tradition This notwithstanding it appeareth both there and elsewhere that he calleth them to this triall
according to the successioÌ„ of those Bishops vnto whoÌ„ only the Apostles coÌ„mitted the custody of the Church throughout the world the which saith he is come to vs. This saied Irenaeus doeth write in his third booke and second Chapter that he and his fellowes did withstand the Valentinians and the Marcionistes which were great heretiques by the traditions of the Apostles d A cursed glosse for it corrupteth the text for the tradition that he speaketh of had good warrant in the writeÌ„ word that is to say the doctrine not writen but receaued from age to age of the Apostles and so continued till their time He saith likewise vnto the Traditions which are of the Apostles and that by successioÌ„ of pastours haue beene vsed in the Church we doe persuade and prouoke those that speake against Traditions Hee writes as much more in the third Chapter of the saied booke Forasmuch saith he as it were to tedious to set forth in one booke the Successours of al the Churches and to tel theÌ„ one by one we doâ—â—â—â—â— throw those that for vaine glory doe seek to gather disciples togither touching them contrary to that that doeth appertaine vnto the traditions of the Apostles the which we doe shew to theÌ„ by the saied Traditions and by the faith that hath beene taught and is come to vs by succession of the Bishops of the great and ancient Church of Rome the which was founded by the two glorious Martirs and Apostles Saint Peter Saint Paul These are his words in his third booke aduersus haereses a The third you should say the fifth Chapter And at the beginning of the saied Chapter he saieth thus All these that will vnderstand the trueth may presently regard the traditions of the Apostles which are manifest throughout the world and wee cannot count the number of those that haue bene instituted and ordeined Bishops in the Church and their Successours till our daies which haue neither knowen nor taught any thing like vnto the fables and tales that these doe preach vnto vs. b If you say so you say it without cause and vntruely Not without cause we may now a daies say the like of the Lutherans Caluinistes other sects of our time After this he doeth set forth all the Popes of Rome c If the Popes euer since had beene like these you and wee should not haue needed to striue as we doe from Saint Peter vnto Eleutherius which was Pope in his time And he did affirme that that number did suffice to proue that the doctrine of Marcian and Valentinian was false very hurtfull because that it was vnknown or at the least not receiued or approued by the Church being vnder the gouernance of any of thâ—se Popes Then with greater reason ought prescription to take place against d True but such you shall neuer proue ours to bee a new doctrine which hath beene vnknowen this 1500. yeares or at the least if any body sought to publish it he was condemned as a false perâ—itious hereticke The V. Chapter YOu must remember that Vincentius liued 1000 yeares ago by your own coÌ„fessioÌ„ that therfore he speaketh of their time and of the Catholique Church and ancient faith that then was Whereof if you vnderstand him we say as he saied and are more willing to ioine and holde communion with that Church of Christ that he speaketh of then you but then his saying maketh directly against you For neither your Church nor faith was in his dayes We grauÌ„t you also that Irenaeus did vrge succession of persons to stop the mouthes of the heretiques as you shew in this Chapter out of him but withal then you must not forget that he liued not long after the Apostles times when as yet they whose Succession he alleadged continued in the sincerity of the Apostolique doctrine from which long ago your Roman Church as it is now hath fallen by antichristian apostacy For that hee calleth the principall succession and those bishops onely he teacheth are to be obeyed who togither with the succession of their Bishoprickes haue receiued the gift of trueth as I noted vnto you out of his fourth booke 43 Chapter in my answere to your first Chapter But Irenaeus no where prescribeth that his example of vrging hereticks to see their folly by Succession for a perpetuall rule to followe neither therein doeth he prophecy that for 1000 yeares after further those successiue lines of Bishops or any other would continue so in possession of the trueth of doctrine as that safely alwaies they might be ioyned vnto For he was not ignorant what was prophecied concerning the comming of Antichrist 2 Thess 2. and Reuel 17. and that Paul tolde to the Pastors of Ephesus Act. 20. that after his departure there would arise vp euen amongst themselues grieuous wolues not sparing the flock which must needs import that howsoeuer in his time he thought sometimes of succession of bishops that continued in the trueth that yet it was farre from his meaning to prophecy that so it would be alwaies You reason therefore in this point as one that to proue the stewes at Rome now to be pure virgins should alleadge for proofe thereof that they were so when they were yong children For euen like difference and ods there is betwixt the Church of Rome now and her bishops and pastours and that that was in the daies times that you and the authours that you alleage speake of For whereas vnto these times the Church of Rome her bishops pastours stoode and continued in the trueth since not only many of the bishops of Rome themselues whom you hold are freest furthest of of al other from erring as I haue shewed already most plainly fell into heresie but also al your Romish doctrine which we now count cal papistical was diuised found out since those times and is also not only beside but contrary to the doctrine then taught receiued by the ancient Church of Rome her pastours as ere I haue done with you I hope at least in great part sufficieÌ„tly to proue It should seeme therfore that either you in thus reasoning are very childish your selfe or els you thinke you haue to deale but with babes and fooles in that because Irenaeus that florished within two hundred yeares after Christ when the Church was yet pure and vndefiled in comparison of the tymes that followed could and did vrge Succession of persons ioined with succession of trueth therefore you may that liue 1500. yeares after Christ and more You must first proue that succession of trueth is vnseparable from personall succession that euer since and now also the Bishops pastours whose personall succession you bragge of haue continued in the trueth as well as they did whose names he reciteth Whereof neither shall either you or any of you be able to proue as long as the world standeth Fye therefore for shame that you
neuer hauing proued either of these nor yet being able to doe it you should cōclude that your prescription against our doctrine which you call newe at your pleasure though indeede it be most ancient witnesse the olde testament and the newe much rather ought to take place then his in his time against heretiques that then taught diuerse basphemous heresies directly against the scriptures You say our Religion hath beene vnknowen this 1500. yeares or at least if any body sought to publish it he was condemned as a false pernitious heretique But you doe but say thus you proue it not nor euer shall For it was both heard and knowen many 100. yeares before yours was hatched and if euery one were so condemned that taught it then was Christ and his Apostles so condemned For vnlesse by scriptures we can proue ours to be the same that theirs was wee aske no fauour at your hands And as long as we can doe so the more we and our predecessours haue beene condemned by you the more we knowe we haue beene blessed of God Now whereas you say in this Chapter further that Irenaeus did withstand heretiques by the traditions of the Apostles adding your glosse that is to say by doctrine not writen but deliuered from hand to hand and so receiued from age to age frō the Apostles to that time therein through the ambiguity of the word Tradition craftsly you seeke to deceiue your simple reader and indeede you giue a glosse that corrupteeh the text For let that place of Irenaeus in his third booke and second Chapter be perused and that also which followeth in the third Chapter of the same booke though either you or the Printer mistaking it send vs to the fifth Chapter where the wordes are not which you cite and most euidently it shall bee proued that though Irenaeus haue there the words by you cited yet by the traditiōs of the Apostles which he speaketh of there he meaneth no doctrine nor points of doctrine as you doe vsually by that word contrary or besides that which was also taught in the word writen For the question was of God the father of our Lord Iesus Christ which Valētinian Marcion denied against whō he there sheweth that he fought first with the scriptures wherewith when they were vrged he saith they are turned streight into an accusation of the scriptures as though they were not right had not authority might diuersly be takē saying further that trueth could not be found of them by those that are ignorant of traditiō For the trueth was not deliuered by them but by liuely voice that therefore Paul saied we speake wisedome amongst them that are perfect not the wisedōe of this world And this wisdome to euery one of them saieth he is that which he himselfe hath deuised Of which heretiques their wordes yours when you are called to the touchstone of the scriptures are so like vndoubtedly you haue learned to plead against the scriptures for your vnwritten traditions Now when thus he had shewed how the heretiques in his time shunned triall by the scriptures and appealed to tradition he goeth on and sheweth that when he was contented to come to the traditiō of the Apostles kept obserued in the church downe from the Apostles to those times by succession of pastours then they resisted tradition also saying that they were wiser then either those pastours or the Apostles themselues and so indeede neither by the scriptures nor yet by making demonstration vnto them that the same doctrine taught in the scripture was also deliuered by liuely voice first by the Apostles and so receiued from age to age and continued in by those pastors of whose successiō he speaketh could stop their mouthes And thus any mā of meane capacity may perceiue that in these places Irenaeus his drift only is to shew the heretiques that the doctrine which he taught concerning God the father of our Lord Iesus Christ first was warranted by the Apostles writings and then also taught by them by liuely voice and so deliuered and continued from hand to hand amongst the faithfull pastours succeeding one another euen vnto that time And that he calleth this the tradition of the Apostles and not as you falsly expound him doctrine vnwriten beside or contrary to that which is writen as the Popish traditions you striue for bee if you had beene disposed you might haue learned in the 1. Chapter of the same booke where he saieth That which first they preached after by the wil of god tradiderunt nobis they deliuered vs in writing to be the foundation and piller of our faith And indeede it is an vsuall thing with the fathers of the primitiue Church often by the tradition of the Apostles to vnderstand the very same doctrine which is conteined in their writings Herein therefore so likewise in all other points in controuersy betwixt vs it is a cōmon tricke with you papists to vrge the fathers wordes quite contrary to their true meaning But because you first and namely bring in Irenaeus for your vnwriten traditions which is the window indeede that you would haue faine left open vnto you for then thereby you hope you may thrust in and vpon the Church what you list and so countenance thereby your Antichristian doctrine when all other shifts faile let vs see whither this cannot yet further be made manifest out of him He as Eusebius reporteth Hist Eccles lib. 4. cap. 14. saied that Polycarpe taught that one and sole trueth which he had learned of the Apostles quae Ecclesia tradit which the Church deliuereth forth Where of necessity by those things which the Church deliuereth by tradition that he there speaketh of you may not vnderstand any other but those which haue warrant from the word writen and in no case those things that are besides that or cōtrary thereunto for then hee would not haue called that which Polycarpe preached the one and sole trueth for questionles those things are true that are conteined in the scriptures And this clearely appeareth if you marke the wordes as they are in Irenaeus himselfe in his 5. booke 20. cap. that Eusebius hath relation vnto which are these Polycarpe did mention or teach those thinges which he had heard of the Apostles that is all things agreeable to the scriptures Againe the same Irenaeus in his 3. booke and 3. cap. which is one of the Chapters by you before alleadged saieth that vnder Clement the Church of Rome wrought to the Corinthians shewing them quam traditionem what tradition of late they had receiued of the Apostles that is to say that God the father almighty and so forth as is expressed in Moyses is the father of our Lord Iesus Christ And that he is so taught to bee of the Churches saieth hee they that will learne may by the Scriptures and so they may vnderstand the Apostolique tradition of the Church Where it is most cleare that he telleth vs himselfe
and not to perfect it is to leaue the Church without a perfect touchstone to trie all doctrines by and argueth that it was either because hee could not or would not perfect it whereof the one robbeth him of his almighty power and infinite knowledge the other of the perfection of loue and faithfulnesse towards the churchâ— therefore most certainely in the writen worde there is left a full and perfect direction for the Church and consequently those vnwriten traditions that some striue for are superfluous Thus you haue your answere to this Chapter The VI. Chapter SAint Augustine in his Epistle a You should say 165. f r there are but 204. epistles in all 365. about the like matter doth set forth all the Popes by order which haue beene from S. Peters time vntill Anastasius which was Pope in his time and by his continuall succession he doeth proue b By the same argument we disproue popery because none of them that hee reckoÌ„s vp there was of the Romish religion that now is that the doctrine of the Donatists is heretical because that none of those Popes which hee did recite nor no part of the Church did receiue it I praie you may not wee saie the like by the c No not by theÌ„ truely whom you call Caluinistes Caluinists and other heretiques The saied S. Augustine in the Epistle that d It seemes you are a learned maÌ„ For Augustine wrote against an epistle so called he calleth not his so The Epithet RomaÌ„ you adde the words al and continual for he speaketh but of succession to his time and yet there he saieth that oâ—â—â—e trueth is to be preferred before all these he doeth call Epistola fundamenti cap. 4. doeth write the reasons that did keepe him vnder the obedience of the Catholicke Roman Church And among other he doeth alleadge the common consent of all nations the continuall succession of Bishops e This sheweth your great ignorance or negligence for of thâ—â— argument Augustine wrote two bookes and in euery booke many chapters there be but this is common with you the more to trouble your reader to send him to whole bookes and beside sometimes to set downe your quotations as though the authour had wrote but one when he wrote mo of that argumeÌ„t or as though he had wrote moe when he had writen but one And in his booke which he made against the aduersarie of the olde and newe lawe he doeth name the succession of the Bishops as most certaine to answere to that that wee saied before of S. * Ephes 1. Paul f You write Ephes 1. for Ephes 4. I mean that he would not haue vs to be wauering and doubtfull in our doctrine but that we should be firme and stable the which stablenesse is obtained by the knowledge and intelligence of the Scriptures according to the traditions of the Church and the succession of the Apostles and Bishops f It continued so to Augustines time that is three or foure hundreth yeares so ergo so a thousand fiue hundreth yeares and more it should so continue the argumeÌ„t followeth not The Church saieth S. Augustine from the Apostles time hath continued through the certaine succession of the Bishops vntill our daies The VI. Chapter IN this 6. Chapter you cite three places though some of them wroÌ„g quoted out of Augustine whereby indeed it appeareth that as Irenaeus did obiect succession euen so did he to confute the heretiques of his time that taught things contrary to the scriptures but as I haue saied vnto you concerning Irenaeus so doe I concerning him You must remeÌ„ber that Augustine liued wrote within 400. yeares after Christ vnto whose time the Bishops pastours whose succession he produceth had continued at least sound in the fundamentall pointes of Christian Religion from which you your predecessours fell away long ago therefore that which he might herein safely and to good purpose doe you cannot doe without perill to an ill ende Againe you must be told that as Irenaeus was not so neither was he in thus doing a Prophet to shew that to the worldes ende it would be safe thus to doe And lastly I would haue both you and your reader to remember that it is not bare personal succession that Augustine here maketh such reckoning of but that wheÌ„ it was ioyned also with succession of trueth of doctrine as it was in his time with them of whose successioÌ„ he speaketh and is not now with you and them of whose succession you brag so much Which three things considered whatsoeuer things further by you or any of your fellowes are alleadged to this purpose out of TertulliaÌ„ Cyprian or Epiphanius which you might haue as well alleadged as Irenaeus or Augustine be answered For they all of them liued within 500. yeares after Christ when as yet the state of the church stood in good tearmes in comparison that yours doeth and they all spoke of succession of persons succeeding also one another in the Apostolicke trueth and they spake but for their owne times they prophecied not that so it would be alwaies And yet thus it is your fashioÌ„ to beguile the simple that whatsoeuer you reade 1000. yeares ago spoken in commendation of the Church of Rome that then was the Catholicke church or Catholicke faith that you would beare them in hand is spoken of your Romish church and Religion now when as yours compared with those times hath no similitude with the Church of Christ then in a great number of weighty points But for the better satisfying of the reader indeede S. August what account soeuer either in these places here recited by you or else where hee seemeth to make of personall succession or of any such outward thing in the church made more account of sole trueth taught only by the canonical Scriptures then of all other things besides For euen in in his 165. epistle which is the epistle as it should seeme which you meant though you quote the 365. which is more by an hundred one then there are in all after he saieth we presume not so much of these as of the scriptures And in the second place by you here cited out of him which ignoraÌ„tly you say he calleth Epistola fundameÌ„ti wheras he calleth none of his epistles so but writes against an epistle of the Manichees which they so called one book in the later ende of the fourth Chapter whereof after hee had reckoned vp the thinges which did hold him in the bosome of the Catholicke church and might likewise hold any beleeuer therein though trueth as yet did not most manifestly shew her selfe he addeth by by but with you speaking to the Manichees sola personat veritatis pollicitatio c. onely promise of trueth rings which truely if it bee shewed to bee on your side so manifest that it cannot be called into doubt praeponenda est omnibus illis rebus quibus in
printed in our hearts that he be holden as an * Galat. 1. Anathema or an excommunicate person yea although it were an Angell of heauen The which doeth perswade vs not to receiue your d Ours is new to you as the doctrine of Christ and the Apostles was to the Iews in that time that vnderstoode not the Scriptures new doctrine or Gospell but to keepe our selues vnder the gouernaunce of our olde Pastours and Bishops without hauing any respect to their euill or good liues for as touching our faith and saluation that doeth import nothing e This is hardly boldly saied for any thing that you know some take occasion the rather thereby to haue them and so to be conuerted The good and holie liues of Iesus Christ and his Apostles hath profited nothing neither to the obstinate Iewes nor to the vnbeleeuing Gentiles f Open confessioÌ„ would haue open punishment Nor in the like case the depraued life of manie euill Bishops that haue beene at Rome and in other places haue not shut the dores of heauen against those that are true Catholickes and leade particuler liues the which are two principall pointes that doe quiet our consciences g The first is talke and the laâ—ter iâ— little bene seeing how many of you haue learned to be lâ—â—dâ— of them I meane the one that we beleeue that that our Pastours and the vniuersall Church haue beleeued these thousand and fiue hundred yeares and the other that their euill liues cannot hurt vs. For as the Apostle doeth say euery man shall beare his owne bundell The IX Chapter NOw perswading your selfe that you haue yeelded vs a sufficient account of your ministrie when as onely you haue countenanced it with a shew of personall succession and a bare bragge without any proofe at all of succession also in the Apostolique trueth as it may appeare by that which hath beene sayed you call vs to a reckoning for ours and will vs to shew that God is the authour of it or else to giue you leaue to say it commeth from his aduersary We answere you that our calling is of God first because orderly according to the order of the Church wherein wee liue wee are by them that are deputed by the Church for that busines tried and examined and then with imposition of handes and speciall prayer vnto God fitte for that purpose admitted and ordained ministers of his worde and Sacramentes Secondly because our office of the ministery it selfe is the same that Christ gaue vnto his Church vnder the names of pastours and Doctours whose office and properties are set downe and described Actes 20. 2. Corinthians 4. 1. Timothy 3. Titus 1. 1. Peter 5. And thirdly because we are able to proue by the writen word that we feede Gods people committed vnto vs with that onely foode which God hath allowed for his children and minister the Sacraments according to Christes institution Lastly God himselfe hath sealed ratified our ministery to be of him in the effectual vocatioÌ„ conuersioÌ„ of many thereby Let vs now therfore heare what you can say either to weaken this our assertion that our calling is of God or any of these reasons that we vse to proue the same by First in Tertullians words de Praescrip aduersus haereticos you bid vs shew the beginning of our Churches and reckon vp the succession of bishops down to vs from the beginning c. you haue heard that the same Tertullian in the very same place yea euen in the words immediately following yours addeth Be it that heretiques deuise thus to doe for what is not lawfull for them being once fallen into blasphemy But though they shal deuise so sayeth he they shall gaine nothing For their doctrine compared with the Apostolique doctrine by the diuersity and contrariety thereof will pronounce that their Churches haue neither Apostle nor Apostolique man for the authour thereof Whereof when he had giuen a reason he addeth that those Churches which caÌ„not shew any Apostle or Apostolique man to be the founder thereof in that they were founded long after as many are yet in eâdem fide conspirantes non minus Apostolicae de putantur pro consanguinitate doctrinae that is they are no lesse to be reputed for Apostolique agreeing with them in the same faith euen for the affinitie therof You thought it good to stop before you came to these words For these words indeede take away all the force of the obiectioÌ„ grouÌ„ded vpon the former in that hereby it is euident that howsoeuer Tertullian in his time could shew the originall of the Catholique Church by deducing it and the doctrine therein professed euen from the Apostles to his time yet hee thought it was possible for heretiques to make shew of the like succession of persons but secondly and especially because thereby it is most cleare that to proue a Church to be Apostolick it is not necessary for it alwaies to be able to deduce such a line of personal succession down from the Apostles but it is sufficient to be able to make it appeare that the doctrine thereof agreeth with the doctrine of the Apostles Which vnles we be able to doe by the Scriptures whereby we most cartainly may know what their doctrine was let not our Churches be accounted Apostolique But if this we be able to doe which we doubt not of and yours compared and conferred with the Apostolique doctrine therein expressed shall proue both diuers and contrary then for all your fiction of succession we say vnto you in Tertullians worde that so your Churches shall be proued to be founded neither by Apostle nor Apostolique man For as the Apostles taught not contraries amongst theÌ„selues so neither did the Apostolique men saieth he vnlesse it were they that departed from the Apostles and ours shall proue themselues though they were not able to deduce their Succession from the Apostles by their affinity of doctrine with that of the Apostles to be Apostolique and so to haue their originall and beginning from Sion and so also in the end it will fall out that Tertullian spoke rather against such as you are theÌ„ against vs. And thus you see Tertullian hath sufficiently answered himselfe and also hath giuen vs weapons against you to defend our selues withall You gaine euen as little by your similitude taken from tenants who to proue their title good must shew their Land-lordes how by succession they came to their landes For if all Land-lords should thrust all their tenants from their possessions which are not able to deduce the descent of their tenimeÌ„ts froÌ„ one to one euen froÌ„ the first that held it purchased it the 10 tenant in the world should not long quietly enioy his owne Yet you for your parts if your bare bragge were a proofe are such tenaÌ„ts to the inheritance of the church of Christ and the Catholique trueth that you haue not onely proued your title thereunto to be good by
gentiles namely to Augustus Cesar which profes though they were granted to be of sufficient force to proue that the gentiles had thereby some knowledge of the cōming maner of cōming office of such a Messias yet they proue not but that it was notwithstāding a thing newe and not vnderstoode to most of thē neither doe they at all proue but that still the doctrine concerning the particuler person of that Messias namely that Iesus the sonne of the virgin Mary whom the Iewes crucified was he no other was a new doctrine both to Iew and gentile and therefore in that respect it was necessary for the Apostles for all these thinges to confirme that by miracle whereas now amongst vs that beare any waie the name of Christians that doctrine is not newe neither anie thing else that wee preach but to those to whom the ancient doctrine taught in the Scriptures is newe and therefore as yet there remaineth cause sufficient why the Apostles should worke miracles and not wee This also I cannot but tell you of that howsoeuer the Sybilles are reported to haue prophecied of Christ your comparison is verie odious when you saie they did it as fully and as plainelie as anie of the Prophets and that you wrong Augustine too too much in making your Reader beleeue that hee either in the place quoted by you or anie where else ioyneth with you in that malaperte comparison But these comparisons of yours argue the profanenesse of the spirite that directeth your pennes The XX. Chapter THVS you see that Iesus Christ was anounced among the Gentiles before the comming of the Apostles who notwithstanding this did not let to set forth the doctrine that they were sent to preach vvith manie notable miracles although they did not teach but that doctrine that was verie ancient And although that their doctrine vvas newe and vnknowen to the Gentiles yet you cannot alleadge that it vvas so a Yes it is evident that the true doctrine both of his person and office was new and strange vnto thē vnto the Iewes for they beeing studied and learned in Moses lawe they hearde nothing of the Apostles but had beene prophecied by the Prophets Doeth not Saint Paul saie at the beginning of his Epistle to the Romanes that hee was seperated to preach the Gospell the which God promised by the holie Scriptures * Act. 3. Saint Peter talking with the Iewes doeth giue them plainelie to vnderstande that his vvas no newe doctrine because that hee did preach Iesus Christ of vvhom Moses had prophecied long before saying thus * b Deut. 16. God shall raise a Prophet among your brethren b Deut. 18. you would saie you shall obey him as you doe me and hee that doeth refuse it shal be put to death Saint Peter saieth afterwarde All the Prophets that haue beene from Samuel vnto this time doe announce vnto you these daies that is to saie the doctrine that wee doe preach That that the Apostles did preach vnto the Iewes that is to wit the remission of their sinnes by the death and passion of Christ it was no newe thing for as * Act. 10. Saint Peter saied vnto Cornelius All the Prophets haue vvitnessed that those that beleeue in him shall obtaine remission of their sinnes for it had beene so prophecied by Esay c 53 you should haue saied cap. 55. vnto the people aboue eight hundreth yeares saying that hee had laied vpon his sonne all our iniquities as it doeth appeare in his booke in the vvhich he doeth shew himselfe more an Euangelist then a Prophet for there hee doeth vvrite the tormentes of our Sauiour euen as if hee had beene present at his passion Dauid likewise doeth talke of the like where hee doeth mention the extreame affliction of our Redeemer and of the Gall and Isope and the Vinager Daniel did not onelie discrie the death of our Sauiour but therewithall the verie time that he should come And to bee briefe all the Prophets haue announced vnto the Iewes that that the Apostles did preach vnto them Now if wee desire to knowe why this olde doctrine preached aswell to the Gentiles as to the Iewes by the Apostles was confirmed vvith manie miracles vvhich they did in the name of God vvho sent them the cause is this the Deuill had so obscured and hidden the trueth ouer all nations that superstitious Idolatrie had taken place in steede of the true seruice of God so that the poore Painims did not put their trust in one God but in a multitude of Gods And in like maner the true Religion giuen by God to the Israelites had beene troubled and almost cleane abolished by the traditions of the Scribes and Pharisees in the vvhich they did trust for the iustification and remission of their sinnes d And in your owne consciences you cannot but see we haue iust cause The like doe you report of vs and of your great curtesie yee are contente to match vs vvith the superstitious Iewes and Idolatrous Paynims placing your selues in the degree of the pure Gospellers and the true children of God taking vpon you the succession of the Apostles and calling your congregation the true Catholicke and Apostolical Church This sounds notablie well but seeing that your cause is absolutely to reforme the Church as they did preaching the ancient doctrine of God as they did and dealing with superstitious Idolaters that cleaue more to the traditions of men thē vnto the pure word of God as the Iewes Seing then that our case is reported vnto the similitude of the Iewes and yours to the Apostles and Prophets how comes it to passe that you doe not as they did seeing that you are sent frō one master Why e Because our doctrine being the very same that theirs was their miracles serue sufficiently to confirme it to take away al excuse from them that will not beleeue it to the worldes ende doe ye not make your commission appeare by signes and miracles seeing that God hath euer done the like heretofore when he hath sent the like Commission to yours The XX. Chapter I haue shewed you my reason in the former Chapter why you must stay for all your premises from the conclusion that you beginne withall in this For howsoeuer some few of them thē heard in some sort that such a Messias either should come or was come yet the particuler person who that same was was first preached by the Angel Gabriel secondly by Zacharie and Elizabeth his wyfe Luke 1. before he was borne then by the Angels to the shepheards the day of his birth after by Simeon and Anna Iohn Baptist the Apostles of Christ and the rest as it followeth set downe in the story Luke 2. c. But you say yet further that though their doctrine concerning Iesus Christ the Messias was vnknowen to the Gentiles yet it was not so to the Iewes for the Apostles preached nothing but that which
had warrant from the law and the prophets as you proue I graunt wel out of the 1. to the Rom. and 10. of the Acts conferring those places with the 53. of Esay though wrong quoted by you and out of the prophecy of Daniel I graunt they preached nothing that ought to haue beene new vnto them forasmuch as euery thing that they preached had ground in the olde Testament but yet as you after seeme to confesse it was growen new not onely to the Gētiles but also to the Iewes in that they were misse-led in the vnderstanding of the prophecies that went before of him both concerning his person and office through their ignorance corrupt glosses interpretations that by false teachers were made thereof Insomuch that when the Messias came and executed his office though indeed all the ancient prophecies were yea Amen in him and most plainly in respect of euery circumstance verified yet they could not be perswaded either that he was such a one in person or office as he was and therefore then once it was necessary by all other good meanes miracles also to confirme the doctrine concerning him which was thorowly done by Christ and his Apostles in their tymes Now whereas hereupon you would inferre that seeing wee match you with the superstitious Iewes and Idolatrous Painims and our selues take vpon vs Succession to the Apostles and to the true catholique and Apostolique Church and to reforme you of your errours as they did theirs therefore we preaching that ancient doctrine of God and of his Christ that they did we now also should confirme our doctrine commission by miracles as they did Beside many other there are two principal things that let you from this conclusion The first is that howsoeuer other things were old y they taught of God the Messias yet this was new who was the very person of the Messias Wherin if they had erred though otherwise they had rightly vnderstood the generall doctrine both of his person and office it had bene most dangerous for thē and therefore that doctrine especially is vrged by thē as for example you may see in Peters sermon to Cornelius Act. 10. And for the confirmation of that doctrin they work al their miracles not generally in the name of the Messias but particulerly in the name of Iesus Christ of Nazareth as it appeareth Act. 3.6 c. Which thing in respect of you we haue not for that is a thing agreed on betwixt vs. Another stop to your conclusion is seing that doctrine hath bene once sufficiently confirmed by miracles by Christ and his Apostles that we teach and you haue the same doctrine and miracles set downe in the new Testament whereunto you seeme to giue credit as wel as we it is thenceforth needles for the ministers thereof howsoeuer they meete with people that for Idolatry superstitious errours match the Gentiles the Iewes in the Apostles times to vse any other proofe thē from those records of the scripture which ought now to be accoūted sufficient therefore now the calling for miracles to be out of time To reason therfore as you doe It was necessary for the Apostles in their time to worke miracles Ergo it is necessary also now for vs though our doctrine be the same is besides and without reason And yet for al this we recant no whit for comparing you to the superstitious Iewes and Idolatrous heathen For if either be worse then other we thinke it is like to proue your selues in that hauing far better meanes and more knowledge of God and his Christ then they had yet you multiply your Idolatries and superstitious conceites far beyond them And euen for this that notwithstanding your better meanes to keepe you in the waies of God and your more knowledge then they had when Christ and his Apostles came first vnto them to preach this Gospel you match them in grosse Idolatrie and in multitude of superstitions and false opinions is it that God vouchsafing the better to conuert them to worke miracles then thinketh it fit to answere you now as the rich glutton was enforced in the like case ye haue Moses and the Prophets yea also the books of the New Testament and if you will not beleeue them you would not beleeue though one should rise from death againe or what miracle soeuer els were wrought But wher as you suppose that the cause why the Apostles wrought miracles was the blinde Idolatry of the heathen superstitions of the Iews onely and not any newnes of any part of their doctrine you are much deceiued as you may perceiue by that which I haue saied Againe if you would perswade that their doctrine was in no point new because in the doctrine of one God and in the doctrine of the Messias in some points it was not or ought not to haue bene so your logicke is flender For in other points it might be new as I haue tolde you and so in respect thereof though not of the other miracles were necessary But this your obiectiō of lacke of miracles pleaseth you so well that you cannot haue done with it let vs therfore heare what further you can say touching this matter The XXI Chapter YOu doe coniure vs by the name of the liuing God to receiue your Gospel and pure word of God or els you doe threaten vs that you will shake off the dust of your feete in testimonie against vs because that vvee will not beleeue your words But in this matter ye doe alleage a wronge text for we were very simple if we should forsake or remoue the foundation of our Church vpon such an occasion as I vvill shevv by this discourse that doeth followe I am sure that you are not ignoraunt howe that Luther after he began to preach his Gospell was not founde barren for immediatelie after his beginning he did ingender another Gospeller that is to wit Andrew Coralstadius and from thence was produced another called Zuinglius and of Zuinglius Oecolampadius Then Thomas Muncerus considering that he had no lesse the gift of the spirit then the rest hee beganne to forge a newe Gospell of the Anabaptists vvith the which hee thought to gratifie the Towne of Milhouse vvho had receaued alreadie the Gospel of Luther But the Senate of that towne beeing vvearied already with two manie straunge Gospels they aduertised Luther you first Apostle of it And he wrote to them againe that Thomas Muncerus ought not to be receiued if hee could not proue his vocation by some miracle And if you demaund where I haue founde this I saie to you not in the workes of some lying Papist but in the Commentaries of your deare Historiographer master * a Lib. 8. fol. 4. Sleydon vvho hath so good a grace in his writing and is so mooued with the trueth of his spirit a Either you had wondrous ill hap for your quotations or else your printer was too bad for it is
9. p. 322. Auricular confession coÌ„futed at large c 37. p. 322. c B. BAptisme and the ceremonies at large spoken of 308. c. Baptisme that is outward sometimes separate from regeneration 280. c. Baptisme bindeth not alwaies the baptised to be of his religion that baptised him p. 395. 410. Bad alwaies intermingled with good 404. Beza defended against Albines slanders 400 Bondage vnder poperie as great as Israels vnder Pharao 170. c. Bohemians doings coÌ„sidered and defended 291. c. C. CAluins argument against the popish priesthoode that it is not of God vnanswered by Albine p. 5. Ceremonies popish how and when many of them came in and how withstood C. p. 15. 16. Colliers faith what it is 222 Christ will bee a whole and sole Sauiour or else no Sauiour at all 419. Christs Church perpetuall but not alwaies visible in the popish sence 37. c. 122. 413. c. Church why called catholicke and so the popish church is not catholicke p. 360. Contentions and varieties of opinions amongst Christians no news they ought not to preiudice the trueth 68. 69. 250. Contentious popish many and great 70. 71. 97. 252. c. Corpus Christi day when and by whom it came in 161. Caiphas had not the spirit of prophesie as Albine would seem he had 94. 95 Crueltie of papists in seeking to preuaile to stand by force 155. c. 291. c. Cathechising in popery how bad it hath bene 179. c. Councels haue erred and that euen papists confesse 230. c. Communion vnder one kind is but a new deuise 159. Christ was to proue his calling by miracles and yet not we 188. c. 403. D. DEdicating of bookes to great persons hath good and ancient presidents A. p. 11. and 12. Departure from the Roman Church that now is lawfull 149. 394. 417. c. 409. c. E. EDucation bindeth not the party to bee alwaies of their religion that brought him vp 181. to be read but not so as to discourage the simple from the study of them 205. 208 c. Scriptures alleadged in their true sence the ground that protestants staÌ„d vpoÌ„ 205 c. Scriptures though neuer so much abused by heretiques yet by them they must be confuted 226. Scriptures must expound scriptures 47. 210. 224. Scriptures they which alleadge best they are to be followed 245 c. Scriptures must trie who hath the spirit of God 222 c. Scriptures are to bee studied and read of all men 209 c. Scriptures shamefully spoken of by papists the better to shun triall by them 82 c. 212 c. Scriptures fondely allâ—adged and applied by Papists 35 c. 218. Scriptures in some sence may well be vnderstoode according to the tradition of the Church 87. 393. Scriptures whither rightlier alleadged by protestants or papists examined 215. 216. c Scriptures are so alleaged by protestaÌ„ts that they therfore are to be beleeued and neither papist nor heretique 215 c. Scriptures are both iudge and witnes 262. Scriptures are the only souÌ„d touchstoÌ„e both of trueth church al. 33 c. 46 c. 244 406. Scriptures by Papists thought neuer to bee soundly interpreted but according to the present practise of the Roman Church 214. 219. Sinne is more strictely condemned by protestants then by papists 285. 404. SuccessioÌ„ papists haue neither Personall 25 c. SuccessioÌ„ papists haue neither Locall 25 c. SuccessioÌ„ papists haue neither not reall 21 c. 27 Succession Popish we reiect not so much for their bad liues as doctrine 92. 301. Succession neither locall nor personall anie certaine note of trueth 27 c. Succession in the trueth the onely succession indeede to be stood simply vpon 31 c. Supper of the Lord wonderfully peruerted of the Papists 31. 416. Supremacy of the Pope new how by whoÌ„ it came vp and by whom still resisted p. 11. c 161. c. T. Traditions beside the word writen countenanced by abusing of Irenaeus and others p. 1 2. 76 c. Traditions vnwriteÌ„ the ground of popery C. p. 5. p. 82. Traditions beside and contrary to the word writen reiected by the fathers C. 2. p. 46 78. c. 224. c. Traditions spoken for and allowed by the fathers alwaies warranted by the scriptures C. p. 2 3. Traditions vnwriten heretiques commonly flie vnto eueÌ„ as the papists doe p. 5 6 33. Transubstantiation wheÌ„ it came in and how confuted D. 7 8. p. 109. Tree that is good bringeth forth good fruit and in what sence that is to be taken 274 278. c. Trueth is to be preferred before custome all things else C. p. 7. 86. 100. 406. Trueth is not tied to bishops mouthes and chaires 28. 29. 94. 95. 151. c. Trueth is most ancient and that is it that came from the Apostles 102. Turkes and Iewes take occasion the more to be hardened for the popish doctrine of Images and transubstantiation 217. V. VIsible demonstrable succession is neither certaiâ—e note of Church not trueth 28 â—7 c. 51. Vnity and Christian peace may and ought to be kept in the Church though the rites be diuers 312. c. Vnity vnlesse it bee in verity men are not to continue in 417. c. Vnity in euery thing followeth not vpon right praying for the spirit 247. c. Vnity papists haue not though they bragge thereof neuer so much 70. 71. 97. 246. 252. Vnâ—uersalitie indeed the Romish Church hath not 388 c. Vocation ordinary hath not alwaies beene found in them that haue beene meanes of the conuersion of nations that haue profitably preached 30. 123. c. Vocation may be good and lawfull though the called haue faults 131. Vocation of what sort popish prelates haue 14 c. Vowes in popery foolish and superstitious 306. c. W. VVAnts and faultes of the Church to reforme men are not bound onely to vse praier 141. Way that is narrow both for life and religion is to bee preferred before the broad way 395. c. Workes that are good indeed rather founde with protestants theÌ„ with papists 280. c. 286. 404. FINIS Faults escaped in printing through the absence of the authour the hardnes and smalnes of the hand wherein the copy was offered to the presse and the vnacquaintance of the ouerseers with the same A. p. 1 l. 26 â— why for when 4. 16. before for vnto B. 1. 7 the for that l. 33. the for their 15. 16 for second 11. l. 20 when for whom l. 35 for the their C. 1. 12 pruning for prouing 7. 12 them for them l. 25 put in I say next therefore 12. 23 for first sixt 15. 11 put out of desposed the first s D. 2. 9 Paula for pacta and in Armonians e for o and in Moralia is for l. 6. 9. put in next them they doe 7. 1 that for the 9. 34
word to trust them any more in their quoting or citing of the fathers But lest we should thinke that this was but a slippe of his by chance that hee was not his craftes-master in this kinde of dealing he hath plaide vs the very like trick againe with this same father pa. 18. where he alleadgeth the fourth chapter of the said Irenaeus third booke to iustify their traditions not warranted by the written word For in the beginning of the saide chapter not fiue lines before the wordes cited by him hee speaking of the scriptures written by the Apostles Euāgelists he saith that they into that rich treasury most fully haue brought all things that belōg to truth so that euery one that will may frō thence take the drink of life And that which he speaketh in the words alleaged by him of following of tradition it is spoken only by way of supposition to shew what course had bene best for the Church whē any questiō should haue arisen if they had not left vs scriptures For his words are these if the Apostles had not left vs scriptures must we not haue followed the order of tradition which they gaue to them to whom they committed churches In which case which is not our case nowe seeing they haue left vs scripture we grant we should haue beene in the deciding of all controuersies that could haue arisen ouerruled by that which they deliuered by word of mouth to such and therefore that being the case no better or readier way for the ending of controuersies should there haue been then to haue recourse to the most ancient Churches wherin they were conuersant and so by their tradition to haue learned the certainty therein But thus by way of supposition Irenaeus speaking of their tradition in the case supposed by him certaine it is that by their tradition he vnderstādeth that soūd form of doctrin which they deliuered by their preaching teaching which thē would should haue been the same forasmuch as they spoke wrot by one spirit that now they haue left vs in writing And therefore euē then the Romish Church should haue been as far to seeke as she is now for hauing any warrant from thence for those things that she holdeth either contrary or besides the word written And that by tradition he meaneth here no other thing it is euident for in the first chapter of that booke he saith plainely Quod tum praeconiauerunt postea per Dei voluntatem nobis tradiderunt in scripturis columnam fundamētum fidei futurum that is that which first they preached after by the will of god they deliuered vnto vs in the scriptures to be the piller and ground of faith And in the third chapter of that book hauing before spoken of the Apostolicke tradition he after sheweth what he meant thereby namely this that god the maker of heauen and earth c as he is described in the olde testament the Apostles haue taught to be the father of our Lord Iesus Christ contrary to the phantasticall franticke dreame of Valentinian so plainely shewing that they that would euen by the scriptures themselues might learne what the Apostolick traditiō was Now what is this for the authorishing the vnwritē traditiōs of the Romish church which are not ōly al beside the scriptures but whereof the most are contrary thereūto But this gentle reader is the right trick of all the crue of these Romanists thus by the ambiguity of words out of the fathers to seek to colour their absurd opinions so er thou be a ware to deceaue thee if thou take not heede As for example to perswade a mā to like of their beggerly vnwritten traditiōs whatsoeuer any father speaketh of traditiō though it be neuer so plaine in the author himselfe that thereby he meaneth nothing lesse then such traditions as theirs yet that must be confidently brought in as fit most pregnant for their purpose Likwise whatsoeuer any father hath said of any sacramētall chāge of the outward elements for that therein their name vse estimation are chāged though the same father in a thousād other places shew that his iudgemēt is that there is no change at all there in substance yet that must be quoted as a flat place for Popish trāsubstantiation And euen so if they find in a father speaking of the Eucharist any mention of a sacrifice as though there were no kind of sacrifice but that which they dream to bee there that must be vrged as a strong place to proue their blasphemous sacrifice for the quick the dead And this iugling with the fathers and cosening of their poore simple readers vse they in al their cōtrouersies But at this time thou must pardō this preface writer this fault because herein he doth but study to bee like him before whose book he hath set this his preface For chapter the fifth he himselfe most grosly committeth this same fault in the detection whereof I haue more at large discouered this lewde dealing of theirs In the meane time let vs not forget that Irenaeus hath taught vs what that church is who those pastours be what those traditiōs are that we must obey be ruled by namely onely that Church that hath the scriptures for the piller groūd of her faith lib. 3. cap. 1. those pastours that succeede the Apostles in truth of doctrine li. 4. cap. 43. those traditiōs which haue good warrant from the scriptures themselues lib. 3. cap. 3. whereof it must needes follow that all the places reasons quoted by him either out of the scriptures or fathers to binde vs to yeeld obedience to their churches ordinances their prelates cōmandements to the points warranted onely by their traditions their Church hauing another foundation of her faith then the worde written namely alwaies their popes will as it hath the commādemēts of their prelates traditions being not only beside but also often most grosly contrary to that word of God writtē as I shal shew in sundry places er I haue done with Albine in Irenaeus iudgemēt ar but so many abusings and corruptings of their holy good meanings And yet thus hauing to no purpose bestowed a great deale of idle paines as one that had said inough to proue that the authority of all the learned fathers the cōmon consēt of all Christiā regions prescriptiō of time were al ful fast of his side he lustily braggeth p. 22. that if their be any weight in any or al these together that his side hath the true gospell the true sence thereof That their Religion is the very Christian Religion their order of ceremonies the right order and that their fasting and praying is according to the scriptures and that therefore their church is the lawfull and true spouse of Christ from which who so seperates himselfe is in state of damnation This thus only said thereupō by and by as though there were no
I cannot deny but that I finde all these and the Churches vnder them still charged to holde errours and heresies but this then withall I infer the more true that it is and hath beene thus with them the more euident it is of what small acount this personall and locall succession is of it selfe either to giue credit to Bishops and Pastours or their religiō that can plead that And this further I adde if these be sufficient causes to make their alleadged succession to be of no valew then there is as great cause why succession bragged on so much by the Romanists should be reiected as a thing not worth the naming For not onely in inferiour places of Bishops and Priestes which is a thing that they will not striue with vs about it is so manifest that there haue beene many heretiques amongst them but also euen in their line of Popes who as some of them hold cannot erre there haue bene sundry heretiques also For Tertullian contra Praxeam writeth of a Bishop of Rome that did allow of the Prophesies of Montanus as he saieth therefore sent letters of communion to the Churches of Asia and Phrigia thereabout And Athanasius in his epistle ad solitariam vitam agentes and so also Damasus in the life of Liberius and Hierō de ecclesiasticis scriptoribus testifie that Pope Liberius was drawen in the ende to subscribe to Arianisme And Honorius died an heretique as it is to be seene in the first general councel Act. 12. 13. c. Liberatus also Breuiarii Cap. 22. witnesseth that Vigilius in secret fauoured heretiques Anastasius the second fell into a condemned heresie as we read Dist 19. Cap. Anastasius and therefore would haue restored Accatius a condemned heretique And yet I say nothing of Pope Iohn 23. condemned for an heretique by the councell of Cōstance the schole of Paris for denying in effect the immortality of the soule Yea the euidence of the trueth in this point is so open and strong that it hath caused their owne frends to condemne them of grosse flattery that holde that Popes haue not and cannot fall into heresie as any man may see that will read Alphonsus contra haereses lib. 1. Cap. 2. 4. Lyra vpon the 16 of Matth. and the third Synodall Epistle of the councell of Basill And that the Romish Church doeth now holde as grosse and palpable errours and heresies as they charge these withall if I proue not ere I haue done with Albine I will neuer craue credit either to our ministers or to our Churches and cause Wherfore to leaue the proofe of this to his place or places to goe on with that which I haue vndertooke to proue against them concerning this their brag of right succession whereas thirdly I saied that though we were not able to deduce or deriue downe from the Apostles wtout interruption any locall and personall succession vnto our Ministers that now bee yet as long as ours teach and our people embrace the same doctrine that they taught wee are well enough whatsoeuer they say to the contrary that resteth onely now in this case to be proued But before I come to the proofe of this least in this my assertion I be mistaken I would first that it were marked that I speake but by way of supposition that is if we were not able to set downe a continued line downe from them to vs without any interruption for in the 4. Chapter following I hope I shall set downe such a descent of our Church from them to vs as whereby it may sufficiently appeare that there was neuer age nor time since but our Church and religion hath had her teachers and hearers Secondly I would haue it also vnderstoode that my meaning is though it were so that wee could not make recitall or demonstration of any such descent or succession in that processe of time distance of place and the force and subtlety of our enemies kept vs from knowing their names persons and places that yet for the continuance of the trueth and the Church of Christ amongst men I constantly holde and beleeue that there hath beene a continuall and vninterrupted succession of teachers and embracers of GODS trueth whereof his Church consistes euen from the first beginning thereof and shall bee to the ende Onely this is it that thereby I am contented bee insinuated that the Churches of Christ if they can proue that they are taught by such ministers as God doeth raise vp vnto them according vnto his good pleasure whither ordinarily or extraordinarily and that they embrace no other doctrine but that which Christ and his Apostles taught witnes the canonicall scriptures that then they are to be accounted Apostolike and holy Churches of God and that in such a case especially in and after great persecutiōs ruines long oppressions of their mēbers children they neede not to be daunted nor discouraged neither in respect of their ministers and teachers nor in respect of their doctrine though they cannot be able lineally to name the persons either by whom their ministers downe from the Apostles haue had their vocation deriued vnto them or else by whom euer since that trueth hath beene continued For howsoeuer in visible Churches of GOD whiles they stande in florishing or vnoppressed state and condition by the fury of persecutours there is a set order and forme visibly to bee obserued in the vocation of Church ministers in respect of which estates and times it is easie for them that liue therein or within the knowledge and remembrāce thereof to make demonstration of the lyne of succeson yet when in the iust iudgement of God the Churches shall bee oppressed as now a long a time they haue beene vnder the tyranny of Antichrist then and after such a time such a thing growes to many not onely harde but also impossible And in such tymes wee finde that the Lorde of his wisedome and power to continue yet his Church rayseth vp men though not by the ordinary way vsed in the former tymes as after the dispersion of the Church at Hierusalem by meanes of the persecution there when Stephen was stoned we reade that the Disciples beeing dispersed and namely with them Philip the Deacon that hee preached the Apostles not aware thereof for any thing that appears so vnder Cōstātine Antonius the heremite taught at Alexandria and vnder Valens Aphraates Flauianus and Iulianus at Antioch beeing then but Monkes who in those dayes were not so much as counted amongst Clarkes as wee reade in Nicephorus libro 11. Chap. 15. These thinges thus premised thereby not onely my meaning shall rightly bee conceiued but also that which I haue saied in some sort is already confirmed But my reason indeede is that true and sounde apostolicke doctrine in the good prouidence of God towards his Church opened and continued in the same though by men not comming to their places of teaching by the ordinary way alwayes but sometimes somewhat
hundred yeares haue beene at contention yet doubtles are not agreed about the conception of the Virgin Mary whither it were in sinne or no about diuers sundry other great mysteries of their religion Yea euen in the Sacrament of the body and bloude of Christ wherein they would seeme to be at greatest vnity yet if a man were disposed to note the diuers opinions therein amongst themselues he should scarse euer knowe when to make an ende For there be some of them that holde that there Christs body is torne and chewed with the teeth as it appeareth in the Recantation that they prescribe to Beringarius others as Guymund de Consecra Dist 2. thinke that too grosse Some as Gardener would haue Hoc to signifie indiuiduum vagum a certaine thing that is but they cannot tell what others now would haue it to note that which is vnder the accidentes of bread and wine Scotus and Innocentius the fourth holde consecration to be not by the fiue wordes but by Christs blessing others holde now that it is done by the fiue wordes When it commeth to the eating some holde that it entreth the mouth but no further others wil haue it to passe into the stomacke but not into the guttes others wil haue it to go thither also Infinite are the questions that they are fallen into about this matter And in their last conuenticle at Trident where they had hoped to haue healed all these sores yet euen then there grew a great contention betwixt two great captaynes of theirs Archbishop Catharinus and Frier Soto and that about no small matters namely about assured confidence of the fauour of God Predestination originall sinne free-will and such like matters Insomuch that for all the councell could doe for six yeares together they continuallie went on in writing bookes bitterly one against another The same Catharin also wrote a booke against Caietan a Cardinall laying therein to his charge 200. errours CoÌ„tention also the same Catharin had with FraÌ„ciscus Torrensis a man otherwise of his owne faction about single life of priests residence of Bishops both which the one helde was as hee taught therein warranted by Gods worde the other stoutly holding the contrary In the Articles of iustification free grace and originall sinne Ruard Tapper a great Papist and Deane of Colen in his second tome wrote against Piggius an Archpiller of that Synagogue contending to proue that he was deceiued and erred in those pointes But what should I take vpon me to reckon vp the contentions and controuersies that are amongst them For certaine it is they are so many and infinite that a man if he were disposed might write a booke of a whole quire of paper consisting onely of a bare recitall of the differences of opinions that their writers haue set downe in their owne bookes about points and questions of religion And yet see as though there neuer had beene iarre amongst them they brag of vnity amongst the simple and labour our disgrace with the obiection of variety of opinions amongst vs especially about this one point of the maner of Christs reall presence in the sacrament But seeing now hereby in parte you see at what agreement they are I hope you thinke it reason that they should agree better amongest themselues before they insult any more against vs for our disagreement Lastly they doe vs wrong in seeking to disgrace vs and our religion in that since Luther beganne to preach there haue risen vp diuerse and sundrie fonde and foolish heretiques For wee read that immediatly after the Apostles tymes euen within few yeares Epiphanius by his tyme could reckon vp eighty and Augustine more seuerall errours and heresies which in effect did growe togither with the Gospell and yet the Gospell not to be blamed therefore but Sathan who where the good seedes-man sowed good seede vseth to sowe also his tares Matthew the thirteenth And yet it seemeth by Saint Iohns preuention of this obiection that some aswell affected to the Gospell then belike as you be now were ready hereby to discredit both the Apostles and their doctrine But Iohns answere is they went out from vs but they were not of vs for if they had beene of vs they would haue continued vvith vs. But this came to passe that it might appeare that they were not all of vs 1. Iohn 3. Euen so wee answere you concerning those that you say haue any where since Luther risen amongst vs and fallen into heresies Yet further so much the more apparent is the wronge that you offer vs in this behalfe in that not onely you knowe we shun communion with them as wel as you but that also it euidently hath appeared to the world that wee haue beene both the first and the forwardest in detecting of them and in confuting of them from time to time Wherfore I conclude that hitherto you haue saied nothing of any force for the iustification either of your vocation Church or religion The V. Chapter THe like vnto this is confirmed by Vincensius Lyrinensis of whom we haue spoken before for he saith in the booke aboue named that that person ought to be esteemed a true Catholicke a This rule is sound and good but it quite ouerthroweth popery because it cannot be proued to be this ancient Catholique faith For â—he contrary is certaine both by scripture and all sound antiquity that hath nothing in greater coÌ„meÌ„dation then the true religion of the Catholick faith yea although it were the wisest man in the world and the greatest Philosopher and the fairest speaker that euer was if he came to speake against the old doctrine that hath beene taught vs of our forefathers time out of mind we ought saieth he to disdaine that learned Clarke with al his philosophy cuÌ„ning to holde our selues to the ancieÌ„t opinion of the church the which hath continued vntill this present day b But such as all popery and no part of our religion And if that nowe one should bring a new doctrine that was not heard of before contrary vnto that that hath euer bene taught in the Church say that it doeth not appertaine vnto the state of the Catholicke faith that it is no religioÌ„ but a temptation And therefore if we wil be saued we ought to liue and die in that faith that hath continued by succession of Pastours euen froÌ„ Christs time vnto these daies S. Irenaeus a very famous writer Lib. 4. contr haer cap. 65. in his fourth book against heresies the 65. Chapter who was within a few yeares of the Apostles Archbishop of Lions writeth the very like c Proue your religion now to bee the same that was in Irenaeus time and then you say something his testimony make for you otherwise not and this is impossible saying that the true faith the true knowledge of God is the doctrine of the Apostles the ancient estate of the Church throughout the world
that by the Apostolique tradition he vnderstandeth this same doctrin of God the father which before they wrote the Apostles deliuered vnto the church by liuely voice afterward as it appeareth they set down in writing Is this thē honest dealing in you to make your Reader beleeue that he meant of vnwriten doctrine such as the is for which you we striue seeing he telleth you himselfe that by the Apostolique tradition of the church you are to vnderstād this doctrine of God the father most plainely plentifully writen and set downe in the scriptures You might haue learned of S. Paul 2. Thes 2.15 that the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 tradition may as wel be referred to expresse doctrine in scripture as that which is deliuered by word of mouth where the Apostle as then very litle of the new testamēt being writen and as then therefore the whole Apostolicke doctrine therein not being expressed saith Hold fast brethrē the documēts deliuered you whither by word or by our Epistle But you are the lesse to be blamed the more to be borne withall for this your wilful thus abusing your reader because the making or marring of your church and Religion stādeth vpon vnwriten verities or rather forgeries which you call the Apostolicke or the holy churches traditions For there are few or none of those points of Religiō wherein we differ from you and striue with you about but your owne great champions haue confessed haue their ground from hence and not from the scriptures As any man that will take the paines to reade them may see in Peter Soto against Brentius in the 5. cap. of Canisius catechisme in the 5. booke 100. c. of Lindans panoply where they reckon vp almost all the points in controuersie betwixt them vs in Religion and when they haue done plainely cōfesse the ground thereof to be but tradition And therefore to countenance this onely bulwarke of your church Religion at least with those that either for lacke of leasure or learning cānot examine your quotations it is not your fault here alone but the cōmon fault of you all where you finde any mention in fathers of tradition though it be neuer so euident that thereby they meane nothing beside that which also hath warrant from the word writen to alleadge that place streight to countenance your vnwritē traditiōs To preuēt you therfore hereafter of thus abusing the simple I would wish thē all others to mark how flatly against your vnwritē vnwarāted traditiōs by the writē word the fathers with one consent haue writē for the absolute sufficiēcy of the scriptures Besides that which you heard out of Irenaeus Tertulliā to this purpose Irenaeus saieth further in his fifth book we must run to the Church be brought vp in her bosō nourished with the scriptures of god And Tert against Hermog writeth Let Hermogenes shew that it is writen if it be not writē let him fear that wo that is threatned or appointed to the adders or takers awaie As for Origen we haue heard him tel vs before that our senses and declarations without the witnesse of the scriptures haue no credit in his 1. Hom. vpon Ierem. And great and worthy Athanasius saieth The holy scriptures giuen by diuine inspiration are sufficient to shew the trueth against Idol Hillarie saieth it is wel that we are content with those things that are writen in his third booke of the Trinity Cyrill vpon Iohn in his 12. booke and 68. cap. graunteth indeede that all things that Christ did are not writen but hee saieth those things are writen which the writers thought sufficient both for maners and doctrine Chrysostome writing vpon the 2. to Timothie Homil. 9. saieth If there be anie thing needefull either to learne or to bee ignorant of we shall learne it in the Scriptures and in the commentary vpon Matth. commonly also fathered vpon Chrysostome wee read these golden words They that be in Christianity let them flee to the Scriptures because they can haue no other proofe of Christianity but by the Scriptures To this end read also Chrysostome vpon the 2 to the Thes Hom. 3. Basil also very sharpely writeth that it is a most euident argument of infidelity and a most certaine signe of pride if any man either doe reiect any thing of that which is writen or bring any thing not writen seeing the Lord saieth My sheepe heare my voice and they follow not the voice of a strāger in his treatise of true and godly faith Where also he noteth that Paul Galat. 3. by an example taken from men most vehemently forbiddeth that any thing be put out of the scriptures of God or which God forbid saith he be added thereunto And therefore he in Moral Reg. 26. saieth further Whatsoeuer we say or doe it must be confirmed by the testimony of the Scriptures Where likewise in his 80 rule he gathereth that seeing faith commeth by hearing and hearing by the word of God without doubt whatsoeuer is without the holy scripture seeing it is not of faith must needes be sinne and therefore he addeth in that rule let vs stand to the arbitriment of the scriptures and with whom doctrine is founde consonant thereunto let the sentence of all trueth bee adiudged of their sides Hierome vpon Agge cap. 1. saieth those thinges which of their owne heades they deuise as though they came by Apostolique tradition without the authority and testimonie of the holy Scripture the sword of God striketh who also vpon Math. cap. 23. saieth that which hath not authority frō the scriptures as easily is despised as approued And contra Heluidium he saieth we beleeue it because we reade it and we beleeue it not because we reade it not August against Cresconins the Grammarian in his 2. booke writeth That there is an Ecclesiasticall canon ordained whereunto belong the bookes of the Prophets and Apostles by which bookes we iudge of all other writings both of the faithfull and of the Infidels out of whom already wee haue heard diuerse plaine testimonies to this purpose especially that against Petilian in his 3. booke and 6. cap. set downe in the ende of the confutation of the 3. chap Damascen is as plaine as any of these in his 1 booke of right faith cap. 1. Cuncta quae tradit a sunt c. All thinges saieth hee which are deliuered vs by the Prophets Apostles and Euangelists we embrace wee acknowledge reuerence beyond those seeking no further For all things concerning faith and maners he confesseth are plainelie conteined in the scriptures de doct Christ lib. 2. cap. 9. Infinite such places might be cited out of the ancient fathers for they are full of them whereby it sufficiently appeareth that this was the vniforme and generall iudgement and opinion of them of the sufficiency of the scriptures If therefore in deede and trueth you made any reckoning of their generall consēt as often times you will
you would make it But be it though you only say both proue neither of theÌ„ against theÌ„ that they held it in the worst sence now stil that also as you say in certaine other smaller things they hold otherwise then was held by Chrysostom Cyrill Basil Athanasius yet I say will staÌ„d vnto it that as daÌ„gerous heresies mo in nuÌ„ber be held of your own coÌ„pany against the truth of Christs person office theÌ„ they hold in all in far more greater points of weight are you gone froÌ„ the ancient fathers that haue beene in the latin church wtin the first 600. yeares theÌ„ they haue done froÌ„ theirs And therefore in the meane time whiles you will ioyne this issue with vs vntil you haue disproued this my assertioÌ„ by the same reason you reiect their succession will we perseuere in reiecting yours Now whereas you secondly imagine that we labour to weakeÌ„ ouerthrow the force of your argument taken from succession by laiâ—ng out the lewde liues negligence in doing of their duties in many of those pastours Bishops of whose succession you boast true it is that prouoked by your too too great brags of your personall succession by your immoderate railing against some of our pastours and ministers whom yet you cannot staine but with false and maliciously deuised tales sometimes some of vs haue beene occasioned to cast your owne dunge into your faces And we being able as wee are euen out of your owne stories so iustly to lay such a number of most notorious thinges to the charge of verie many of your greatest Prelates and the matter being notorious that fewe or none of your Popes and Archprelates euer take it vpon them by preaching to feede Gods people which is the principall duety of a Bishop we thinke still that that which we say and obiect against you in this behalfe may iustly cause you to be ashamed of such fathers so to cease both your bragge of succeeding them your railing against vs. To disproue the force of this our allegation you dispute the matter as though we went about to proue that the succession of trueth hath ceased in the Church because we thus obiect against the persons of many of your predecessours whereas we most constantly holde beleeue that it hath alwaies continued and that though you grow ten times worse then any that hath beene before you it shall stil vnto the worldes ende But withall we tell you it hath beene continued by others and not by those wicked and negligent pastours and predecessours of yours that we speake against For as their liues were deuilish so was their doctrine Antichristian as yours their childrens is Too too foolish therefore is it that you write that wee doe no lesse offende God in laying forth the liues of sundry of your Popes thinking thereby to ouerthrow the succession of the catholique Ecclesiasticall faith then if one should go about to ouerthrow the promise of Christ to the Patriarches because of the bad liues of diuerse of their successours For we holde that the Succession of the Catholique faith hath continued and will to verify that promise of Christ Matthew 16. though neuer so many of your popes go to the deuil Neither did we euer in laying forth their most filthy liues thinke thereby to ouerthrow the Succession of faith for we neuer tooke them to haue any society or coniunction with it since they became such But you still according to your old woont taking it for giuen which shal neuer be offred you that their personall succession and the catholique trueth went alwaies togither which we doe most earnestly deny imagined that wee could not speake against the one but that therein also we sought to ouerthrow the other when as we are perswaded that of al other persons vnder heauen your Popes for this long time haue beene Sathans most forcible meanes to ouerthrow both the Apostolique trueth and Catholique Church Wherefore you see you might wel haue spared your paynes in the greatest part of this Chapter and so let any that hath witte iudge whither it be not great folly for any man to be so simple as to seeke to be the childe of such fathers as neither had honestie nor any soundnesse of religion as many of your Popes for any thing that you haue yet saied to the contrary haue beene whose children yet how bad soeuer you would haue men to be The VIII Chapter VPon Moises Chaire there sitteth sayeth our Sauiour Christ who not the godliest meÌ„ of the world but the Scribes Pharises doe that they saie but not that that they doe But if our new Gospellers had beene in those daies they would haue tolde Christ that his commandement was not to be obserued because the liues of Anna and Caiphas were not correspondent vnto those of Moises Aaron for the first came to the vocation of priesthood being called of God but the last attained to it by the vocation of their a As many of yours doe or by worse means or else your owne frends bely theÌ„ purses and yet notwithstanding rather then our Sauiour would breake this harmonie of the misticall bodie of the Church he was not onely content to permit that Caiphas should execute his office although hee was vnworthy as one that came to it by Simonie but rather he did confirme his pontificat with the gift of the Spirit of Prophesying with the which he was b That is grosse blasphemy as fullie inspired as euer was Dauid Esay or any of the rest and all to teach vs that that I haue alreadie saied I meane that the Ecclesiastical order the administration of the Sacraments doe not consist in the good or euill liues of the pastours but onelie of God and of his word interpreted by them As touching that that appertaineth to our health God hath no regard to the life of the magistrate temporal or ecclesiasticall for he can aswell serue him with an euill person to doe good to the common wealth as of a good as the godlie prophesies of the wicked Balaam doe well witnesse Num. 24. And here is to be noted that when we talke of the succession of Bishops and of the doctrine continuing in the Church we doe not meane onely to talke of the c Indeede you doe wisely to call for helpe of others for otherwise the necke of your successioÌ„ hath often bene shamefully broken Popes but of all the Bishops and other hauing Ecclesiastical charges not onelie at Rome but thorow al other places where the true preaching and right administration of the Sacraments be vsed And therefore you doe pretend in vaine to proue that the aboue mentioned succession hath beene interrupted by the discention of Popes Antipopes and by the Ciuil warres that haue bene at Rome in times past For although that the Sea of Rome was vacant for a time the Chaires of Bishops in France Spaine England and
thing that we holde teach and preach as much as you You doe therfore but abuse your reader in going about to make him beleeue that we reiect your Bishops onely for their lewde liues whereas the thing especially that we condemne both you and them for is your Antichristian doctrine It is well that when you haue saied what you can for your line of Popes yet the consideration of the oft interruptiōs of their succession by schismes and otherwise you are glad in the ende to giue vs this note that when you talke of succession of Bishops and pastours you meane not onely them but all other Bishops and pastours of your Church in whom the succession hath beene continued whensoeuer it was interrupted in the other For hereby in effect you doe acknowledge that you meane not nor thinke it wisedome to leane too much to the successiō of them least they let your building fall Wherein I preferre you yet before Stapleton in that herein the trueth of the manifold interruptions of their succession seemeth to haue preuailed more with you then with him For he writing against Doctor Fulke of this matter of succession though hee saieth hee will not holde succession in the same places and sees to haue continued generally yet in this particuler line of Popes onely hee thinketh that safely he may You are also to be commended for acknowledging dissentions to haue beene betwixt your Popes and Antipopes themselues and in leauing them without defēce for their lewd liues ambition and negligence euen to answere for themselues For indeede as it cannot be denied but that these thinges most monstrously haue beene found in very many of them so you could not haue had any honesty in smothing of their faults Yet you go some thing to far in saying that their dissentiōs were not preiudiciall to the vnity of faith held before For how could it be that one part of the world ioyning with the Pope the rest with his Antipope or Antipopes it being an article now of your Catholique faith Boniface 8. de maioritate obed Cap. 1. vnder paine of damnation to be beleeued that al soules must submit themselues to your Pope as to the Supreame head of the Church but that these for many yeares togither banning cursing each others faction thereby the vnity of faith was not onlie troubled but maruellously broken The IX Chapter NOw seeing that we haue yeelded you a full accompt of our vocation to the ministery if we may be so bold I thinke it is no great presumption to demande the like of yours a Caluin neuer thus reasoned therefore you play the papist with him that is you bely him For euen as Caluin hath heretofore called vpon vs to haue vs proue that we are the Children of God or otherwise he would absolutelie affirme that God cannot be called the authour of our vocation to the ministery We say likewise that if you doe not shew the like of yours you shal giue vs leaue although it be against your willes to saie that yours commeth not from God but from the procurement of his aduersarie Tertullian b Wee know hee spoke against such heretiques as you Papists bee who as you know aboue 1200 yeares agone speaking against such as you are in his booke de praescrip haeret doeth write these words Edant origines Ecclesiarum suarum euoluent ordinem Episcoporum suorum per successiones abinitio decurrētem Hoc enim modo Ecclesiae Apostolicae cursus suos deferunt sicut Romanorum Clementem Episcopum à Petro ordinatum id proinde vtique coeteri exhibeant quos ab Apostolis in Episcopalibus constitutos Apostolico semine radices habeant c Here either is ignorance or wilfull corruptiō of this authours meaning dris◠You see well by these wordes how that Tertullian doeth continue with the succession of the Pastours the which he doeth affirme to be necessarie saying that you and such as you are ought not to be receiued to the ministerie of the Church nor to teach the people contrary to the ecclesiatical order except that you shew the antiquitie of your table And it is necessary saieth he that you reckon your Pastours and Bishops by order how they haue succeeded one after another for this is the waie that the Churches doe maintaine their right The saied Tertulliā doth ground his similitude vpon the custome of the Ciuil gouernance For when that these that are Princes or Lords doe suruaie their lands the subiects are bound to shew what landes they holde of them setting it all forth by accompt shewing by what tenure they hold their copie and whether it be demean◠or free holde comming by inheritance or bought they ought likewise to name him that had it before and by their owne title to ouerthrowe all other persons that maie make claime vnto it a Not yet nor euer will you be able According to this patterne and order we haue giuen you accompt of our inheritāce although we were not bound to it setting before your eies the similitude of Salomon by whom our Sauiour Iesus Christ is represented That same Salomon doeth giue the sheepe that runnes astraie counsaile to set his Tabernacle by the Tabernacle of the Shepheards to follow their flocke vntill he come to the place where Christ was nailed on the Crosse at noon daies The which counsell as the most certaine according to Tertullian his opinion we doe follow thinking it sufficient to keepe vs firmely in the right and ancient Catholicke faith For we that are the sheep of Christ doe follow as touching our religion the steppes that our fathers led before vs and as it were going vp vpon the ladder of Iacob Gen. 28. b Whatsoeuer you meane you can neuer deduce your religion so high for it hath beene a patching together long euen till of very late daies we mount by degree and degree I meane from yeare to yeare from age to age vntill that we come to S. Saturim S. Denice S. Marcial S Gratian which were those that did first teach the Catholicke faith in Tholose in Paris and to those of Guyenna and Lorayne and so consequently to all the rest of the Saintes that first did teach the Catholicke faith through all Christendome whom wee doe call in iudgement before God to defende that faith which they haue giuen vs from hand to hand they maie cal vpon the Apostles which sent them the Apostles maie direct themselues to Christ who by the mouth of his most louing Apostle doeth command vs to continue in that that was taught vs at the beginning 1. Iohn 2. And so wee shall continue and rest with the Father the Sonne and the holie Ghost And if any bodie doeth come to teach vs anie other doctrine then that which hath bene taught vs at the beginning I doe not saie c No take heede of that for the booke of the Scriptures is your bane writen in booke but
ministers either are the authours of any wronge to the Duke of Sauoy or that either they or their followers were the cause of the ciuil warres and troubles in France If the Duke of Sauoy haue any such right to Geneua as you pretend and that it be withholden from him it beeing a ciuil quarrell betwixt him and the states ciuil of those parts why should it be layed to the charge of the ministers who you cannot proue haue had any intermedling therein And as for the troubles in France it appeareth by the stories thereof that they haue proceeded first from your owne side and that the doings of the protestant Princes there haue oftentymes beene iustified euen by the Kings owne edictes and proclamations to haue beene done in all loialty and that their warres haue beene but defensiue against the oppressions offered them contrary both to the ancient lawes and present edictes of the Land by certayne ambitious persons and not offensiue either to the Kings person or dignity And as for your Bishops and Priestes of whose being driuen from their lyuings by our men you complayne so much in some sorte I confesse thorow their occasion indeed they haue beene dispossessed thereof but that seditiously or tumultuously by force they haue beene driuen there from by them we vtterly deny For in most places they haue beene dispossessed thereof by mature deliberation and consideration of the badnes of their titles thereunto in solemne and lawfull assemblyes of the estates of the countries by the lawfull authority of the same estats as namely here with vs in EnglaÌ„d in Scotland and in other kingdomes where the Gospell is receiued and established by publique authority and by the same authority orderly our men whose right thereunto in those assemblyes and Parliamentes haue beene founde to be the better haue beene put into possession thereof And in other places your Bishops and Priestes as not able to stand in the presence of the light of the Gospell when will they nill they they sawe it would take place in their territories forsooke their places and left them to those that had more right thereunto as for example they did in Geneua when the Gospell was first established there And no marueile though vpon the bare preaching of Gods trueth and the entertainment thereof many of your proude Bishops and superstitious Priestes can stand no loÌ„ger in their places For when the Arke of God came in presence Dagon could staÌ„d no longer though his frends set him vp againe neuer so often yea the more they stroue to haue him stand the more dangerous fall got he as you may read 1. Sam. 5. And it cannot be leâ—ted but Christes saying will take place and be verified one time or other Euery plant that my heauenly father hath not planted shall be plucked vp by the rootes Matth. 15.13 whereupon it commeth indeed that the proude prelates of your Antichristian Hierarchie hauing gotteÌ„ vnto themselues titles and offices through the ambitious and fond deuise of mens heads which God neuer allowed to be for his house must needes when God meaneth to reforme his house and to establish his owne orders therein auaunte their roomes and leaue their liuinges for the Lordes true officers and allowed seruantes indeede Blame therefore the badnesse of your foundation and title for leesing of your liuings and nothing else You bid vs shew our euidence that our right to them is better then yours out of the ancient doctours In the meane tyme you apply Tertullians wordes in his booke of Prescription against heretiques against vs and that of Paul How shall they preach vnlesse they bee sent Romans 10. I answere you not onely out of the ancient doctours but out of the Canonicall Scriptures also our ministers long ago haue made euident demonstration vnto the Princes and estates that haue driuen you out of possession and put them in that their title to your liuings was good and yours starke naught in that thereby they proued vnto them their religion to be ancient sound and Apostolique and yours to be but of a later Antichristian stampe though you according to your maner say we cannot deny but that your religion was planted throughout Christendome 1000. yeares before wee were borne which you shall neuer be able to proue true for wee most constantly deny both that antiquity and vniuersality of it And whensoeuer you will wee are ready againe by the same Scriptures and Doctours to proue our right by the same argument to bee good and sound and yours to be of no force come to the triall of it when and as oft as you will And therefore seeing it is a thing most euident that the reason why either you or we should pretend anie right to these or any other liuinges of the Church is that we feede the Church with wholesome and sounde doctrine wee hauing oft proued ours so to be by the grounds aforesaied and you being neuer able to doe the like for yours both Pauls saying and Tertullians must rather take place against you then vs. For I trust you will confesse that there Paul accounteth none sent of God to preach but those that preach the truth and questionles Tertullian vseth those words of his as by the wordes themselues as they are set downe by you it is euident not against those that were able to proue their doctrine sounde by the Apostles writings but against fantasticall heretiques such as had taught and did teach doctrine dissonant from the Scriptures deuised vpon their owne heades Against whom he being to prescribe both by the Scriptures and by the sounde testimony of those that succeeded the Apostles vntill his tyme he might lawfully and to good purpose say what are yee and from whence doe you come c. And truely when any man shall enter into a consideration of the state of the Church in Tertullians tyme both in respect of doctrine and gouernment and on the one side weigh the simplicity of the pastours and teachers then and the agreement that their doctrine had with the writen word and then therewith on the other side compareth the more then princely prelacy and Hierarchie that hath beene these many yeares and yet is in yours ioyned with doctrine not only manifoldly differing but in a number of points directly contrarying the word writen hee shall be enforced to thinke that if Tertullian were aliue againe and sawe notwithstanding how confidently you ruffle as though all were yours and no man had any right to any thing but your selues he would more vehemently vse these words here recited by you against your prelates then euer he did against Marcion Apelles or any other heretique in his time But you are so liberall vnto vs as to tell vs that though wee had commission from God yet he would haue called it backe euen for our noble actes and deedes in driuing you out of possession and taking possession though of our own before the sentence of the iudge was giuen Which you
of those men then we shall be this other way Seeing therefore Christ tooke this way himselfe both with the deuil himselfe with his chaplaines both to confute their errours erroneous interpretations to confirme the trueth by searching the scriptures and neither he nor his Apostles sent vs either by word or their example to the high Priests then or vnto any other for resolutioÌ„ of the church or trueth this way as the best only way we thinke all ChristiaÌ„s bound to take And in so doing let not any man despaire but that through the goodnes of God he shal be inabled to trie the spirits to discerne who amongst all other alleadge the scriptures soundliest For we see it is the fashion of our God to reueile his trueth and the misteries thereof to those that be his how simple soeuer when he doeth conceale hide them from the great men of the world Mat. 11.1 Cor. 1. But you say If this may and must be atteined by the grace of the holy ghost obteined of the lord by faithfull inuocatioÌ„ of his name how chanceth it that since Luther for no ancienter you say though it be neuer so false our ReligioÌ„ is you haue not obteined that holy ghost to ende your hoat contentions and debates amoÌ„gst your selues that so you might be at vnity yet amoÌ„gst your selues This is spoken as though it must needes follow that either we haue not faithfully praied vnto God for his spirit or els if we haue that then of necessity there neither could be nor would be any difference of opinions and contentions at all amongst vs. If you be of this mind then the manifold differences schismes sects varieties of opinions that haue beene and yet are in your church as I haue noted cap. 4. argueth in your Logicke that your church neuer yet praied faithfully and effectually for the holy ghost But indeede your argumeÌ„t is naught For it appeareth Ioh. 17. that Christ himselfe praied for vnity amongst his Apostles and all that should beleeue their doctrine no doubt of it he was heard in that he praied for Heb. 5.7 and obteined for his heaueÌ„ly father would deny him nothing and yet you haue heard cap 4. after this there were varieties of opinions and hoate contentions betwixt some of them that doubtles of both parts were within the compasse of Christes praier And therefore that praier of Christ and the prayers of his seruants made to that ende are to be vnderstoode to take place and to be effectuall in that there is so much vnity amongst the true members of the Church atteined thereby as is sufficient to holde them togither in the communion of saints which is if they ioyne togither in holding the foundation and fundamentall points of Religion though otherwise there be differences and hâ—at contentions sometimes amongst them And it may not be thought as you seeme to take it that such prayers either are not effectually made or els there must followe thereupon simply an vniuersall accorde in all things For then Christes prayer was not effectuall in that after Paul and Barnabas were at aâ—arre Act. 15. c. That vnity that you speake of the Church may striue for here but she is not to make her account to atteine vnto it before she come in heauen and bee maried to her husband there And so much vnity there is betwixt vs and those whom we count members of Christes Church with vs as that though there be some variety of opinions and therefore also contention but too much yet we ioyne so togither here in the foundation and other most principal points of our Religion that we doubt not but the Lord hath heard our praiers and graunted vs the spirit of vnity so farre forth as that one daie we hope in heauen all to ioine together in perfect vnity notwithstanding the iarres that otherwise in the meane time to trie vs withall be fouÌ„d amongst vs. You know we praie daily that Gods will may be done in earth as it is in heauen and so doe you or you are to blame and herein we hope we are heard and yet simply we neuer found nor shall as long as the world standeth the will of God so done here as it is in heauen For continually there is disobedieÌ„ce to his will here in one thing or other one way or other euen amongst the best but in that in such measure as God seeth this fit to be obteined here he granteth it we are notwithstanding to thinke our prayers effectuall Christ himselfe praied Iohn 17.15 to deliuer his church from euill and yet though that prayer was heard in that God so farre forth preserueth his church from euill as he seeth it expedient for the state thereof here we see daily that many are the troubles and euils that the poore church is encombred withall And therefore to conclude you must vnderstaÌ„d that the faithfull praiers of Gods saints are to be accounted effectuall though the thing they pray for be not obteined in full perfection here as long as so much here is obteined as the Lorde seeth to bee necessary and conuenient for the estate of his seruantes So that notwithstanding the differences amongst vs you might and would if you had the grace ioyne rather with vs in our Religion then continue in that wherein you are the professours whereof are torne a sunder with moe and greater differences then the churches that receaue ours are howsoeuer you deceiue the simple with the vizarde of vnity in that you ioyne together vnder your Pope against the trueth The XXVIII Chapter NOw to turne againe to our former purpose if it were so that of our owne free deliberation wee were minded to forsake our Catholique Religion a If you should be of no Religion whiles all of one were full of one mindâ— you must die a nullifidian I warrant you the iniurious disputations that you vse among your selues were sufficieÌ„t to make vs to suspeÌ„d our iudgemeÌ„t without leauing to any of both parties vntill that we could see more resolute in your opinioÌ„s being the bardest matter the knowing in what cuÌ„try the residence should be kept for that matter b Where wheÌ„ nay our absolute sentence iâ— as our bookes doe testifie and we proue it out of the ancient fathers that your doctrine in this point is but new a very young â—â—ng in comparison of that you would here haue it seeme You haue giueÌ„ absolute senteÌ„ce saying that the Catholique church hath erred euen froÌ„ the Apostles time vnto this present in praying to God for the soules of those that are deade constituted in a third place called Purgatorie You should mee thinke at the least allowe a third place although it bee not that to receaue the soules of those whose consciences you haue so troubled that they know now neither what is their faith nor of what ReligioÌ„ they should be c Such vâ—setled and vnstable persons for all your foolish
thinking so well of your selues as you doe should not teach vs by your often example to doe that which if we doe but once you count an heinous offence in vs. You would haue the best to reforme the rest if your request were graunted you must amend apace or else there will none of you be found in that degree You are angrie with vs for speaking as wee vse to doe against your Popes and bishops and for that in the mean time we giue our selues glorious titles of Apostles Euangelists Prophets c passing ouer the faults of our owne Whereunto most truely I may answere that so infinite and monstrous haue beene the sinnes and abhominations of these your Popes and other prelates for this long time that it is impossible for vs all euer sufficiently to paint out the filthinesse of them and as for our passing ouer in the meane time the faultes of our owne though indeede we neuer deny but that there are faultes amongst our owne for they are men and indeed for all your saying we are the first censurers of our selues oftentimes for those faults what reason is there that you should require at our handes that we should neuer tell you of your faults but that we must withal lay open our owne When this is your fashion we will learne to imitate you and concerning titles which you say we so gloriously set out our ministers withall they are yet but titles by Christ in his expresse word left vnto his Church and of them some we cōfesse were extraordinary and but for a time as Apostles Prophets and Euangelists of whom onely we glory in this that our doctrine is the same that they left vs in writing the other titles of bishops pastors doctors as fit for the true ministers of the Gospel we take vnto vs therw t are we content So that you rather haue aduaunced your Clergie with glorious and vaine titles thē we in that of your own heads not thinking the titles that Christ hath left vs glorious inough you haue your Popes Cardinals and diuers other such strange and swelling names of pride and vanity Yet it grieueth you as it seemeth most that some of vs now and then tearme your Popes and bishoppes rauening deuouring wolues some labour therfore you bestow in amplifying a similitude to proue them no wolues but hirelings and bad shepheards that many of them haue beene a great while yea that their sinnes haue bene the cause of our prospering and preuailing as we haue you will not deny vs. It is wel that the euidence of the trueth and the force thereof hath preuailed thus far with you to cause you to graunt vs thus much I feare me if a number of your Prelates and Popes should come to the reading of this you should haue smal thanke of them for yeelding thus farre Well then hirelings they are and haue beene but too much and too long by your owne confession therefore as you tell them the iudgement of God denoūced against thē Eze. 3 33 is that that they may make their accoūt of which beeing so I cannot see how their veriest enemies should wish them to be worse yet let vs see what reason you haue to proue that they may not bee rightly called wolues Your reason is because in the phrase of the Scripture you thinke there must needs be betwixt an hireling and a woulfe spoken of therein the same difference that is betwixt a naughty carelesse and a negligent shepheard and the woulfe that commeth in the meane time to pray of his flocke whereupon the hireling with you is as the sheephearde but careles and negligent in looking to his sheepe the woulfe is as the heretick and false teacher that cōmeth whiles the other is negligent driues the sheepe from the folde deuours them But you know that similitudes are not to be streatched further then they are brought in vsed for that notwithstanding seeing you your selfe cōfesse that the hereticke is the woulfe we shal well inough maintaine our calling of your Popes and Bishops wolues I warrant you For that is the thing especially that wee stood vpon with you and we desire nothing more thē that you would come once to the sound triall of that point by the Canonicall scriptures whither you and they haue not beene most daungerous heretiques Heresie we account any opinion conceiued helde and stubburnly defended contrary to the sound grounds of diuinity set downe vnto vs in the canonicall scriptures And your Religion to stand consist of a great number of such we are alwaies most ready to proue It is not your saying that your Religion is ancient and receiued and taught alwaies in the Church of God from Christ to this day nor your bragging that we cānot deny it as you doe here again in the later ende of this Chapter and haue often heretofore that will serue the turne in this case for I haue diuerse times heretofore proued the contrarie This is flat euery one seeth it you can hide it no longer that if your Religion be so in deede as you say then you dare bring it vnto this touchstone of the scripture and it wil abide it otherwise that whatsoeuer you say to countenance it with your wordes or with the names and titles of ancient fathers and doctours that in deede and trueth it is not as you pretend I haue meetly well already shewed the opposition and contrariety betwixt your doctrine that taught in the Scriptures cap. 29. and elsewhere and yet were it an easie matter to lead on the reader to a number of such grosse contrarieties more betwixt the doctrine of your Popes and Bishops for a long time and that which is taught there For it teacheth that God worketh euen in the regenerat both to will to performe euen of his owne good pleasure Phil. 2.13 and you contrariwise teach in your doctrine of free will That teacheth vs flatly that as there is but one God so ther is but one mediatour betwixt God mā the man Christ Iesus 1. Timot. 2. and you set vs vp a number of mediatours aduocates of saints and Angels besides him There we are taught that no man can lay any other foundatiō then that which is already laied Christ Iesus 1. Cor. 3.11 and your church hath laied Peter for the foundation of the church And in this scripture we are taught to worship the lord God him only to serue Deut. 6. and namely the seruice of praier beeing one of the highest and diuinest pointes of seruice that wee are to yeelde vnto him there we are taught by commandement promisse and example only to doe vnto him and you come and teach vs to worship to serue euen with diuine honour and namely with this of praier not onely saints Angels but also their reliques shrines and images What should I say more your owne consciences tell you that you haue nothing in the world
to escape this 1000. more such contrarieties betwixt your doctrin and the reueiled wil of God in the scriptures but by subtle sophistrie fonde quiddities and distinctions deuised of your owne heades without all warrant and ground frō thēce which in matters and questions of diuinity is intollerable These and such like contrarieties betwixt the doctrine of your Popes and Prelates and the trueth taught in the scriptures we hauing oft obserued and tolde them of and yet finding them most obstinatly to persist in the same hath caused vs rather in respect of their hereticall doctrine to call them wolues thē in respect of their negligence onely heretiques And for this same cause seeing all yours are thus infected you wish vs in vaine to ioyne some of the best of them with some of the best of ours to reforme things amisse in both For there is no hope of any good reformation at all where any such as yours haue any thing to doe therein And seeing it is and hath beene so cōmon a thing with vs as you cannot be ignorant if you haue reade anie of our bookes writen against you to denie that you continue in the doctrine which was preached vnto you at the first yea seeing you all know that we count your synagogue Antichristian for her manifold Apostasies from the ancient doctrine of Christ and his Apostles taught first vnto the Romans I wonder with what face or forehead you could write as you do in the cōclusion of this Chapter that we our selues cannot denie if we will confesse the trueth but that you haue continued in the doctrine that was first preached vnto you And therefore not onely for your lewdnes of life and negligent sheepherds bad sheepe doeth your kingdome decay as you would insinuate but especially for this also that in the points we striue with you about you are quite gone from the ancient sound Catholique faith and religion first taught by Christ and his Apostles and receiued and continued many yeares in the ancient Roman church others The only way therefore for you is to preuēt an vtter vniuersall subuersion and confusion first to returne againe from your new Antichristian Religiō doctrine to the true ancient Catholique faith taught in the scriptures and thē to amend your maners according to the direction of the same The XXXVII Chapter ALL our ancient doctours a This is but an arrogant false brag as we are able to proue come to particulars when you will as well of the Greeke as of the Latine church since the Apostles time and the Christians of all the foure quarters of the world which were in those daies b Christians haue alwaies vowed and promised lawful thinges onely to God they haue had a care to make those vowes and promises discreetly of such things as they saw he had made possible vnto thē which things are neglected in the vowes that I feare you most mean haue made their promises and vowes vnto God euen as we doe now and at their baptisme they did vse euen those verie ceremonies that we doe with the selfesame exorcismes adiurations and annoyntings that we doe vse in our Catholique church which you call Papisticall and to proue this true we will bring the saied ancient doctours as witnesses if it please you to reade the c Neuer man had worse hap in quoting so few places as is euident in the answer to this Chapter places that we will quote Tertullian who liued verie neere the Apostles time doeth make mention in his booke that he intituled De resurrectione carnis of the annointing vsed at the Baptisme and of the renouncing the Deuill all his pompe In his booke de coronâ militis he doeth speake of the third dipping vnder the water in the name of the father the sonne and the holy ghost S. Cyprian the Martyr who was aboue 1300. yeares agone doeth write in the second volume of his Epistles Epist 12. how they did vse in his time to giue the holy Chrisme vnto the children that were baptised Origen in his twelfth Homilie and in diuerse other places of his workes doeth make mention of the renouncing of the Deuill at ones baptisme of the making of the signe of the crosse vpon childrens faces when they were christened S. Iohn Chrysostome in his 12. Homilie vpon the first Epistle to the Corinthians cap. 4. And in his first Homilie vpon the first Chapter to the Ephesians he doeth make mention of the saied renunciation made from the Deuill and all his workes Reade I praie if it be your pleasure S. Aug. in Psal 31. Aug. li 15. contra Iulia. Pelag. li. 1. ca. 2. Item de nuptiis cōcupiscentia lib. 1. cap. 20. in Ioannem tract 33. in Canonicam Ioannis tract 3. tractat 6. Et de eccle dogmat cap. 31. De Simbolo lib. 1. cap. 7. lib. 2. cap. 11. Et libro de his qui initiantur sacris Cap. 1. Basilius de Spiritu Sancto cap. 15. 27. Arnobius in Psalm 75. All these doctours which were aboue a thousand yeares agone if you reade in them the places that heere I haue quoted you shall finde that they did vse at the Baptisme of their children those verie ceremonies that wee doe now vse and that you doe so mislike And as for confession before the receiuing of the Sacrament our sauiour Christ doeth teach vs that the Ecclesiasticall ministers haue authoritie to binde and forgiue sinnes Saint Cyprian in his fifth Sermon de lapsis Origen vpon the thirtie and seuenth Psalm and in Leuit. Hom. 2. Saint Augustine libro 2. de visitatione infirmorum Cap. 4. Saint Cyril libro 12. in Iohannem Cap. 56. Saint Hierom in Ecclesiast Cap. 10. All these doctours according to the Scriptures in these places doe confirme auriculer confession And as for praying vnto the Saintes in Paradise to helpe vs vvith their praiers read Origen in his third Homilie vpō the Cāticles and in his 2. book vpō Iob his eight book in Eccl. Reade Chrysostom in his eight Homilie vpon the Epistle to the Ephesians the fourth Chapter and S. Augustine in his twentie booke against Faustus the one and twenty Chapter and Saint Hierom against Vigilantius All these make mention of the praying vnto the Saintes And for praying for the dead reade Tertullian in his booke De Monogonia and in his booke De corona militis and Saint Cyprian ad plebem Furnensem and in the first booke of his Epistles and Origen in Hieremiam Homil. 12. Item in Epist ad Rom. libro 8. cap. 11. Reade Chrysostome in his thirde Homilie vpon the Epistle of Saint Paul to the Philippians and S. Augustine lib. 2. de gen against the Manichees cap. 20. in the Encheridion ad Laurent cap. 110. Item libro de cura pro mortuis agenda All these doctours whose workes haue continued these 1200. yeares doe teach vs all these thinges that now we doe obserue the which
not amisse vnto my former answer to Iohn de Albine to annex this short answer thereunto His first signe of such as hee speaketh of hee saieth is their departure from the cōmon knowen catholick Church of Christ wherin they were baptized first receaued christiā faith and religiō and this to be such a signe he proueth out of the second chapter of S. Iohns first Epistle where he speaking of such saieth they departed frō vs but they were not of vs for if they had they would stil haue cōtinued with vs. Wherupon he thinketh that forasmuch as hee saieth wee cannot deny but that wee are the men that haue thus departed from their common knowen catholicke Church faith and religion wherein we were first baptized and that wee cannot say that they haue so departed from vs they still remaining in the same church faith and Religion that they first receaued that of necessity we must be enforced to graunt that this signe agreeth to vs and not to them This good Christian that he hath saied were of fome force if he any or all his fellowes togither were euer able to proue that they their church faith and Religion were such as Saint Iohn spake of when he so taxed men for their departure therfrom but seeing onely most beggerly all the packe of them this being the maine question betwixt them and vs alwaies take this for graunted them euen for their bolde impudent and importunate begging of it which we will neuer graunt them nor they shall euer be able to winne at our hands all that he hath saied herein is childish and vaine For we are alwaies most ready and willing to ioyne this issue with them for and about al the controuersies amongst vs that if we be not able by due conference of the Catholique and Apostolique doctrine taught by the Apostles Apostolicke men in the primitiue church testified and extant in their owne vndoubted writings with ours that we are of the same common knowen Catholique Church faith and Religion that they were and that the Romish Church in the thinges wherein wee differ from them is cleane departed from them and from the church of Christ her faith and Religion that then was that then we will as he saieth most willingly submit our selues yeelde and recant And I hope in answering of Iohn de Albine vpon occasion in sundry places I haue so shewed the agreeablenesse of our faith and Religion with the Apostles and the manifolde disagreements of the Church of Rome that nowe is from them and the ancient church of Rome planted by them as that euery one euen thereby sufficiently may see that not wee but they are the men that Saint Iohn spake of that haue departed from the true Church of Christ faith and Religion and that therefore this signe doeth so farre better agree to Papists then to vs that if this offerer will be as good as his worde hee must presentlie submit himselfe yeelde and recant In the meane time the manifest contrariety betwixt their doctrine and Christs and his Apostles made manifest vnto vs by the view of the scriptures thēselues and the notorious difference betwixt their churches practise now and the ancient churches of Rome for sixe hundreth yeares after Christ at the least made likewise euident vnto vs by all sound monuments of antiquity haue assured vs that in respect of them and their Romish Synagogue in these later daies to embolden vs to doe as we haue God from heauen by an Angel saied vnto vs go out of her my people least you be pertakers of her sinnes and so receaue of her punishments Apoc. 18. vers 4. And therefore as it was lawfull for Abraham to follow the Lordes calling Gen 12. to depart out of his owne cuntrey Chaldea and to forsake the abhominatiō thereof as it was wisedome for Lot at the admonition of the Angels to go out of Sodom Gen. 19. and as it was necessary that Christ and his should separate thēselues from the high Priests Scribes and Pharisees and their errours and superstitions though they then their followers bragged that they were the people of God his church so was it meete requisite for vs to depart as we haue from their Popish church and the popery thereof And as for our receauing our baptisme amongst them that bindeth vs no more to hold cōmunion with thē still in their false erronious religion then the receauing of circumcision bound Christ his Apostles those of the Iewes that beleued by their doctrine to continue felowship with the blind and superstitious synagogue of the hard harted Iewes or the receiuing of baptisme in former times at the hands of the ancient heretiques the Arriās or any other such like bound thē that were baptised by such y◠they might not separate themselues frō such to returne home againe to the true catholique church of Christ Againe if they thinke that men are bound alwaies to liue and die in that Religion whereof they were that baptized them why doe they labour by their Iesuits seminaries to seduce to their Religion such as we haue baptized But yet to touch them more neerely for all this brag of their still continuing in the faith and Religion they first receaued let euen their owne Baptisme and their faith and Religion that they after professe bee compared togither and the contrary will appeare For they being al baptized in the name onely of the Father the Sonne the holy Ghost as it is well knowen they are thereby they are bounde onely to beleeue in this Trinity in Vnity and Vnitie in Trinity and yet afterwardes all the sort of them notwithstanding the Apostles Creede and all other ancient Creeds teach them the same become plaine apostataes from this faith in beleeuing in a number both of persons and thinges that without blasphemy they cannot count either God the Father God the Sonne or God the holy Ghost Proofe and most palpable demonstration hereof is their beliefe in their owne merits merits of others Popes pardons halowed water other halowed things their beliefe in and therefore praying vnto Saints Angels In the wonderful prouidēce of God doubtles this forme of baptisme these creeds were preserued continued amongst thē not only to make it euen thereby euident whatsoeuer any of thē brag to the contrary neuer so oft that they are the men that daily depart both frō the faith of Christ first taught them their forefathers and after particulerly in their baptisme cōfirmed to euery one of them but also to make thē before both God man without all excuse of their so grosse apostacy from the same notwithstāding Wheras they know all the world els that knoweth vs know that we simply continue in this faith first deliuered vntd vs briefly by the holy catholique church in these creeds daily sealed vnto vs in our baptisme that euen for that it is that we are so hated and persecuted of
them that with them we will not run out frō this church and faith to beleeue in a 1000. things that are not God as they doe And therefore these things considered by this note they are proued to be the Antichristian false prophets heretiques schismatiques that he speaketh of and not we His second sure marke signe and token of false prophets c. is saieth he that they being departed from the catholique church doe of thēselues of their owne authority without warrant being not sent set vp a new gospell a new faith and Religion and so by preaching a newe doctrine assemble and set vp a newe church and congregation And to proue this Heb. 5. Rom. 10. and Exod. 4. are quoted whence onely we may learne to this purpose that none may take vpon them an office in Gods house without lawfull calling and warrant from him Yet hereupon as though these were most pregnant places to proue that to be necessary to a lawefull calling which the learned protestant can neuer proue to bee in our calling he promiseth likewise to yeelde and to recant when wee shall bee able to proue our iust and due vocation ordinarily or extraordinarily to proceede of God and not onely of mē By his owne words in describing this note or marke two things must concurre to the making of it namely the preaching of a newe Religion or Gospell and the doing of it without a iust and due vocation from God and yet in the prouing it to be such a marke in the applying it to vs he forgetteth altogither the former maketh only shew of proofe for the later Belike his own cōscience tolde him that howsoeuer it was an easie matter to insinuate that our religion was new that yet he was not able so much as to make any shew that he could proue it so to be indeed And touching the other howsoeuer the places quoted by him serue to proue a lawful calling or sending by God to be necessary for and to all such as shal take any office vpon them in his Church yet they proue not at al that there is any thing needful to the prouing of our vocation to be such wanting in ours neither doeth he name any thing required in any of these places to be in ours which he could say we wanted which it is likely he would not haue omitted to haue done if he had seene that with any probability he might haue done it And therefore any man may see that euen in this signe as in the former his onely ground is a false supposition that those things must needs be graunted him all which both most iustly and confidently we alwaies deny For without any proofe or shadow of proofe he in one periode assumeth three things against vs most vntruely slanderously as at large in sundry places of my answere to Albine I haue made it manifest namely that we are gone out of the true catholicke Church that wee haue set vp a new faith and religion and that we haue assembled a new Church and congregation Yea christian reader if thou wouldest but vouchsafe by the table annexed vnto this answere of mine to turne to the places in the saied answere where these points be handled the antiquity of our church and religion the newnes of popery and the contrariety betwixt the Romish church that now is the scriptures fathers and councels in the true catholicke church of Christ the lawfulnes of our calling to the ministry and the vnlawfulnes of their priesthood and vocation thereunto vnto other prelacies amongst them and when thou hast found them to read ouer wtout partiality what I haue writen hereof I doubt not but thereby thou wouldest see not onely that he vniustly hath here charged vs with these three faults but the most iustly we may charge thē with thē al. And therfore therunto referring thee for further answere vnto this threefold charge of his in this place vpon that which there thou shalt finde I hope with mee thou wilt conclude that this beeing a marke and a most certaine signe of antichristian heretiques as he saieth that it standeth faire vpon thē and not vpon vs therfore he should recāt The third signe tokē that the offerer talketh of is that such ouer and aboue the properties touched in the two former doe preach and teach contentiously and seditiously against the doctrine before time taught of the common knowen Catholicke Church of Christ as namely saieth hee against the sacraments of Christs Church by a flat denial of many of thē against the real presence of Christs body in the holy eucharist against the blessed sacrifice of the masse propitiatory both for the liue and the dead against penance the worthy fruits thereof by fasting watching and praier al straightnes of life against vowes inuocation of Saints praier for soules departed and finally against the Church it selfe flatly denying that Christ hath here vpon earth any spouse or visible Church to be heard speak perceiued or seene The ground of which signe he maketh that saying Hebrues 13 be you not caried away with diuers and strange doctrines so tearmed of the Apostle as he expoundeth him because they agree not but are contrary to the receiued and common knowen doctrine of Christs holy catholicke Church whereupon he groweth to his conclusion that when the learned protestant shal be able to proue that they and not we are by our preaching of these strange doctrines the raisers vp of these strifes and contentions then he wil recant and not before Whereunto I answere that vnderstanding by the common knowen catholicke Church the true Church of Christ which is knowen and acknowledged so to be alwaies of him and his faithfull members then we graūt that this is a right marke of such as he would haue it to be a marke of and that worthely in the thirteenth of the Hebrues all men are warned to take heed that they be not caried away with diuers and strange doctrines from that which she hath vniuersally taught and receiued But so taking the common knowen catholicke Church of Christ and not otherwise I say it and haue proued it in my answere to Albine that the Church of Rome that now is hath too long and doeth still not onely cōtentiously and seditiously but also furiously tirannically bloudely and euery way antichristianly preach against the doctrine before time taught by her and commonly receaued and professed by hers touching the true vse of the law and the gospell the office of Christ faith in him the doctrine of faith and workes and of praier and the sacramentes and almost of all other principall pointes of the true Christian religion And thus I am sure hee must vnderstand the church of Christ if either he would haue this to be a certaine signe of heretiques or to be thought rightly to haue expounded the 13. to the Hebrewes And therefore vnderstanding by the common knowen catholique Church of Christ
conuinced as shall plainely appeare in the discourse heare folâ—owing Stande no more in the defence of that which you may easilie know and see with your eies if ye will not be wilfully and obstinately blinde â—o bee nothing but deceit d These titles do rightly fit the popish Religion What doe I call it deceit nay I call it a most venimous poison to the soule yea and an hellishe draught of endelesse â—eath e This part your papists play now in England in being recusants of all sound good meanes to reforme them Playe not the parte of a mad man of whome Horace vvriâ—eth in the second booke of his Epistles that he was angry with his frends â—or that they had caused him to bee healed of his phrensie and restored to his wittes againe Bee not angrye that you may if you will bee brought out of the fowle miste into the cleere ayre from darkenesse to â—ight from an horrible phrensie to godly wisedome Followe the wholesome counsel of Saint Paule in the fourth to the Ephesians Vt non simus amplius pueri qui fluctuemus circumferamur quouis vento doctrinae per versutiam hominum per astutiam qua nos adoriuntur vt imponant nobis That we be no longer children and fleete two and fro caried hither and thither with euery blast of doctrine by the wilinesse and craftinesse of men wherewith they set vpon vs to deceiue vs. There haue beene a great manie f In deed so many such Iesuites and Seminaries you haue sent vs such sprongeÌ„ vp in our Realme of late which haue taught vs wronge Lessons Emendemus ergò in melius Let vs amend therefore The thirde propertie is that the sheepe doe follow their Shephearde This property is of so great importance that without it the other two cannot auaile It is not Inough to knowe Christ to be our refuge our helpe and succour g This is true as long as the church retaineth the two former properties which youre long ago hath lost It is not inough with that also to heare Christ speaking to vs in his Church except we follow Christ his Church shew our selues willingly to doe that which the Church commaundeth vs We must fast when the Church commaundeth vs as it biddeth vs We must pray as the Church instructeth vs We must do those good works that the Church teacheth vs to doe In obeying the Church wee obey God if wee bee disobedient to the Church wee disobey God For as Chrysostome saieth vpon the first Epistle to the Corinthians vt corpus caput vnus est homo ita vnum est ecclesia Christus As the body and the heade is but one man so is Christ and his Church one thing Doe therefore as the wise man biddeth thee Audi disciplinam patris tui ne dimittas legem matris tuae Heare the discipline of thy father and forsake not the lawe of thy mother I meane thy mother the h Holy Church hold you there for so long you say nothing for your vnholy and filthie Churche holy church whom as many as forsake they forsake God also For as holy Cyprian writeth de simplicitate praelatorum Habere non potest Deum patrem qui ecclesiam non habet matrem He cannot haue God to be his father that knoweth not the church for his mother i Let this rule be followed for the questions betwixt vs your church shall bee found in those pointes to haue set a broch those things that those most auncient Churches neuer were acquainted withall Yee may see here euidently that this holy man would haue vs to be obedient vnto and diligently to keepe the ordinances of our fathers and not to institute euery â—â—y new fashions as men most vnconstant and full of new fangles The Lacedemonians are praysed that they suffered no straunge ware to be brought into their citty whereby the cittizens might be effeminated and corrupted in their maners and for the same cause they extoll greatly Licurgus which made the same law Now if the Lacedemonians were so serious obseruers of their olde lawes and customes what a shame shall this be to vs christian men which were not taught of Licurgus but of Christ himselfe daily to alter and change not content with those rites and ceremonies that were ord yned of auncient time out of memory Irenaeus teacheth in his third booke against the heresies of Valentine and such other whose wordes taken out of his fourth Chapter of the saide booke I will briefly rehearse Si quae de aliqua modica quaestione disceptatio esset nonne oporteret in antiquissimas recurrere ecclesias in quibus Apostoli conuersati sunt ab eis de praesenti quaestione sumere quod certum reliquidum est If any controuersie should be of any question were it neuer so little must it not be meete to haue our recourse vnto the most ancient churches in the which the Apostles were conuersant of theÌ„ to receaue the plaine certaintie thereof It followeth Quid autem si neque Apostoli quidem Scripturas reliquisleÌ„t nobis noÌ„ne oportebat ordineÌ„ se qui traditionis quá tradideruÌ„t his quibus coÌ„mittebaÌ„t ecclesias But what if the Apostles left k If indeed they had left no scriptures then that had beene a good course but nowe seeing they haâ—e what their tradition was is best lerned by them But the better to hide your folly in citing these wordes you subtily translate scriptures nothing written of that matter nothing writteÌ„ of that matter must we not follow the tradition of theÌ„ to whose gouernaÌ„ce they coÌ„mitted the churches Here haue you the minde of Irenaeus who was neere vnto Christ his time for as S. l Here againe the question is begged for you take for granted that your pâ—elates are lawfully called and ours not both which we deny Hierome testifieth in an Epistle to one Theodora he was Disciple to Papias who was S. Iohn the Euangelists scholler Hee would haue men to be taught of Christ of his Apostles and their successours and m Of the same minde are we therefore Christian men are not to listen to your prelates not of euerie one which rashly and without lawfull authority taketh vpon him to be a teacher Christian men should be obedient to christian ordinances and followe that doctrine that is allowed by them that are lawfullie called and haue the censure of doctrine committed to them Such were the Apostles called and put in authoritie by Christ Such were they n But such haue not beene your Romish teachers these many hundred yeares Witnesse your owne writers who shewe how vnlawfully many of them came by their places to whom these againe gaue the charge ouer any faithfull â—ongregation Such are all they which haue so from time to time â—eene lawefullie called by them that haue power to put others in authoritie and so succeeded in due order else Quomodo praedicabunt
be trueths as fully and more fully then he or any of his side For proofe whereof cōsider that whereas the whole preface consists in the copie and edition that I had of his in print to aunswere of twenty two leaues hee spendes the first eight pages in prouing that Kinges Princes and rulers both ciuill and ecclesiasticall must carefullie administer iustice according to their callings and so bee as good shepherdes to them of whome they haue charge which who doubteth of or who euer denyed amongst vs yea we teaching as we do that Emperours Kings and Queenes in their kingdomes are carefully to looke to the keeping of both tables amongst their people and that they are next vnder God the supreme gouernours of their people aswel in causes ecclesiastical in commaunding for the good of the church and religion of Christ as in causes ciuill in commaunding for the common weale and the good estate thereof and they denying ciuil Magistrates any such authority in causes of the church doe not we far more fully then they teach them how and when they may be as good shepheards to their people Then by occasion of this former needlesse discourse hauing alleadged that Iohn 10. to proue that a good shepheard giueth his life for his sheepe and that Christ is that good sheepheard that knowes his sheepe and is knowen of them marke how in as many mo pages he inferreth that it is necessary that the sheepe know their shepheard that they heare his voice and geue no eare to the voice of a stranger and lastly that they follow and obey their shepheard which are things also truly taught and vnderstoode which we most gladly teach embrace and for lacke of which properties of Christes sheepe wee constantly hold aduouch that the Romish flocke these manie yeares hath rather beene a flocke of goates then of Christes true sheepe For if they knowe as they should that the name of the sheepheard Christ were the only name whereby commeth saluation Act. 4. and that in him all things are prepared already Math. 22. they would not set vp to themselues so many names of persons and thinges besides him nor hold that so many thinges besides those that are already prepared in him are left to thēselues and others to that ende to prepare as they doe And if they did so heare his voice and refuse to heare the voice of strangers as Christes sheepe ought there neither would nor could be so many strange doctrines yea contrary doctrines to the voice of Christ set downe in the Canonical scriptures receaued maintained amongst them as ear I haue done with Albine I shall shew there are Likewise such followers obeiers of the voice of Christ are they haue they beene for these 4. or 500. yeares speaking vnto them in his word writtē by the mouth of his true church aūcient sound pastours thereof as that none euer in a number of most weighty and materiall matters more directly contraried his voice then they Whither I haue iust ground and proofe for my thus saying I referre thee to that which I haue written in confutation of Albines discourse cap. 4.17.29 36. And yet such is the folly of this nameles preface wryter that hauing thus noted these to be the properties of Christs true sheepe as though by and by without any further proofe at all it ought of necessity to bee granted that he and his side had all these properties and that we of our side had neuer a one of them all but were notoriously branded with the contrary markes he triumpheth and insulteth ouer vs spending all the rest of his preface in railing vpon vs and in perswading his reader to forsake vs and to ioyne with him his So that all the rest of his preface is builded vppon a most shamefull and impudent begging of all these points that they know Christ aright heare his voice no other obey him and follow him most orderly and also of these that his begging of that former may seeme the more reasonable that their doctrine is sound hauing countenāce of al auncient holy fathers of the cōsent of al Christiā Regions prescription of time that their prelates are al prelates lawfully called hauing right succession euery thing that they should haue to credit them withal therefore that they are such as Christ hath commaunded to to be obeyed as himselfe and lastly that their church is the holie Catholike church the obedient spouse of Christ and mother of all the faithfull and that therefore it is damnation to depart frō her or to refuse to obey any of her lawes and ordinances that with vs all things are quite contrary All these things his reader must graunt him suppose to be true for he hath nothing at all to proue any one of these besides swelling words of vanity and lofty arrogant bragging that these things are so And therefore al these things being the things in question betwixt vs and such as we all most constantly and iustly haue alwaies denied as our writings of these points heretofore now this answere of mine in sundry places thereof make manifest to any indifferēt reader thereupon it must needes follow that whatsoeuer he hath alleadged either out of scripture or doctor to perswade his reader to obey their church their prelates their ordinances traditions is shamefully abused For compare the times when the persons whereof those things were written their doctrine and doings with these and you shall finde witnes the scriptures thēselues and all sound antiquity as much differēce betwixt their church prelates doctrine and ordinances and them of whom those places are to be truely vnderstoode as there is betwixt light and darkenesse the pure Church of Christ and the impure Synagogue of Antichrist And also all his exhortation vpon these grounds to ioine with them and all his bitter inuectiues against vs for refusing so to doe is as a building in the aire without all foundation And therefore is thus easilye pulde downe and laide vnderfoote as a thing more meete to bee trampled vpon as a thing of nothing then by any to bee at all regarded And yet as foule a fault as this is in him it is common to him with all wryters of his side and most notoriously with this Iohn de Albine before whose booke hee hath set this his preface It may bee seeing his author whom hee ment to publish and of whom he had such an opinion that hee accounted him a notable discourser against heresies to haue such a grace and dexterity in stuffing out his booke almost with nothing else but with this beggerly begging the maine questions alwaies that he thought his preface should not be suteable and fit to be set before such a learned discourse vnlesse it were garnished bewtified with the same popish grace And if this were his reason then which I am sure hee hath no better hee is to bee borne withall for what
must needs be good and lawfull and ours the plaine contrarie Howbeit if we examine this point throughly we shall find that they haue as weake helpe hence as from the other or from any thing else For whither they vnderstand by right succession succession without interruption in place person or office seuerally or iointly togither neither can their Bishops and Priests as they are now truelie saie they haue it nor yet if they could they being gone as they be from the soule and life of right Apostolicke succession namely the Catholicke and Apostolicke trueth are they euer the better And of the contrarie though it were neuer so true that we could not deduce vnto our present Bishops and Pastours downe from the Apostles or their times without interruptiō the line of succession in place person and office yet we being able to shew as wee are that we holde one and selfesame doctrine with them that would iustify our Church and ministers sufficientlie notwithstanding the want of the former This is quickly and easily sayed you will saie but these thinges cannot so readily bee proued I graunt to proue them will cost the more paines otherwise the proofe is readie and pregnant enough and that I doubt not but if with any indifferency that which I shall write to that ende bee marked shall ere it bee long appeare I say therefore first that the Roman Bishops and Priestes as they are now and haue beene a long time whatsoeuer they brag no not their verie Popes vnto whose right succession Stapleton and others trust most haue any right succession either to any Apostle or Apostolick man in place person or office For first they can neuer soundly proue the proofes out of the scripture are so strong to the contrary their proofes out of the stories so disagreeing and variable in all circumstances that Peter the Apostle whose successours their Popes claime to be and from whom al other Bishops and Priests amongst them haue their vocations and authority deriued was either euer at Rome or being there that hauing laied aside his Apostleship which was the greater and higher office he sate there as Bishop Secondly vnto this day they cannot agree of the order of succeeding one another betwixt Linus Cletus Clemēt Anaclet Vrspergensis in the life of Claudius hath notably at large set out both the difference of opinions in this matter and also the vncertainty of the trueth Thirdly none of any learning and reading can be so ignorant in the stories of the Bishops of Rome but he knowes that they haue not succeeded one another frō the Apostles to this day wtout interruptiō alwaies neither in place persō nor office For besids that sūdry times many Popes for some short time haue sate from Rome it is notoriously knowen that Clement the 5. about the yeare 1305. translated the Popes see from Rome into France to Auinion where it continued aboue 70. years And as for immediate orderly successiō of persons amongst them how is it possible truely certainly to define set downe that seing that see hath not onely stoode vacant daies weekes monethes and years somtimes 2. sometimes more but also there hath bene at once so often not only 2. but often 3. sometime more euery one striuing with his fauorers to be accoūted to be the right Pope And lastly by that which I haue said before of the nature of their offices of Popes Cardinalles Bishoppes Priestes their practise prouing daily my words therein to be most true how dare any mā that hath any feare of God once say or think that they in their offices haue any affinity with the Apostles or any Apostolicke man Light darknes are not more differing the one from the other then the offices of Apostles Euāgelists Prophets Pastours Doctours in the ancient primitiue Apostolick Church differeth from these offices of theirs Secondly whereas I sayed though yet they could which now you see they cannot truely say that they succeed the Apostles Apostolicke men in place person and office yet they were neuer the nearer my reasons thereof are these First I finde that wicked people wicked Priests in the scriptures often haue had this kinde of succession to pleade for themselues against the true Prophets and against Christ himselfe as you may see Ierem. 7. vers 4. cap. 8. vers 8. Iohn 8. v. 44. Vriah the Priest in King Ahaz time had this successiō frō Aaron and yet he to please that Idolatrous king set vp cōtrary to the commandement of the Lord an altar according to the patterne that the King had sent him of one that hee had seene at Damascus 2. King 16.10.11 The high Priests that withstoode alwaies Christ his doctrine and in the ende crucified him had this kinde of sucession yet none of these or their doings were any thing the more iustifiable for this Againe though Stapleton lib. 13. doctrinalium principiorū cōfesses that the Greekes haue beene scismatiques and heretiques this 500. yeares yet he all the sort of them of any reading know that not they only but also the Patriarches of Antioch and Alexandria and the Bishops of sundry other famous Churches in the world all which likewise they holde bee scismatiques and heretiques can doe make as great shew of this kinde of succession for the countenancing of their ministery and Churches as they themselues for they knowe that the Patriarch of Constantinople doeth deduce his locall and personall succession from Andrew the Apostle that the Patriarch of Antioch now sitting at Damascus doeth likewise his from Peter which he may doe more certainly then the Popes when they sate at Auinion could for it is euident Gal. 2. ver 11. euen by the scripture it selfe that Peter was at Antioch so is it not that he was at Rome In like maner they knowe that the Patriarch of Alexandria now holding his seate at Alcairum deriues his from the Euangelist Saint Marke And ignorant they are not that the Arrians preuailing as they did and in the ende hauing got the most seats of Bishops to be furnished with men of their dānable opinion that they for that time were able to holde this plea aswell as themselues and yet I am sure they will graūt that none of these were therfore or are therfore to be allowed iustified They will say I am sure for so I finde thē plainly to reply in their writings yea euen Iohn de Albine himselfe afterward Cap. 7. that though these all can and doe plead succession in place person and office that yet it cannot iustifie them because not onelie they haue helde some of them detestable heresies but presently also doe still Indeede I must needs confesse that I read that Macedonius Nestorius and Paulus Sergius abrupted the line of right successiō by their heresies at Constantinople that Paulus Samosatenus did the like at Antioch and that Dioscorus and Petrus Moggus did likewise at Alexanderia And
Catholiques that withstood the Arrians in the sight of this Emperour had but a poore visibility to bragge of Yea Piggius your owne man confesseth Hierar lib. 1. cap. 6. that their poison had defiled not a part but almost the whole world in so much that almost al the Bishops not only of the east but also of the West by one meanes or other were blinded and no small time continued this heresie and this is certaine that they bragged then as much of visible succession of the name of the Church and vniuersality as euer since you haue done calling the true Christians Homousians as you doe now Lutherans Zwinglians as appeareth in the writings of those that wrote against them You may see therefore that these weapons or staies are coÌ„mon to you with blasphemous and condemned heretiques These places of Scripture and experiments therefore caused August vpon the 10. Psalm 78. Epist to compare the Church vnto the Moone which besides the monethly waynings suffereth oftentimes ecclipsies And surely vnles we be too too wilfull al these things togither may make vs out of doubt that the Church of God both before Christ since hath ofteÌ„ failed to cary any such outward visible shew in theeies of the world that it is so easie a matter to make at al times demonstration of her Pastours teachers who they were and where they taught as you our aduersaries would beare the world in hand it is And therefore for answere to this Chapter to any reasonable man this is sufficieÌ„t The II. Chapter SAint a Thus you are falne from prouing that you are come to your places by the ordinary calling of such as haue ri htly succeeded one another both in person office trueth of doctrine which is the thing you should haue proued to shew that there hath alway bene and must be a successioÌ„ of Pastours to continue settle meÌ„ in the truth which is another point For though this were grauÌ„ted you yet you haue not therby wun the other Paul followeth this discourse in the fourth Chapter vnto the EphesiaÌ„s where as he doeth declare vnto vs the fruit that doeth proceed of this successioÌ„ of Pastours and of the perseueraÌ„ce of the reasonable sheepe in one kinde of spirituall doctrine called the vnity of faith For he sayeth that God established this order to that ende that wee should not bee like light children a The more is your sinne that haue suffered yourselues to be caried away froÌ„ the truth by the enticements of Antichrist caried away with euery blast of false doctrine through the subtilitie of men their crafty words full of deceit In these wordes you doe see how the Apostle doeth declare vnto vs the counsaile the intentioÌ„ of the holy Ghost b If you had beene constant in this faith wee and you had beene all of one minde and vnles we can â—ustifie our faith to bee euen so grounded as you say we will forsake it and ioine with you but if we caÌ„ then you are to forsake yours to ioine with vs if you will answere the intention of the holie Ghost I meane that we should be constaÌ„t in our faith the which is grouÌ„ded vpoÌ„ the word of God interpreted declared vnto vs by the Doctours Pastors that successiuely haue continued in one kinde of faith Catholick religion froÌ„ the first time that it was preached with out turning with euerie winde but rather that we ought to stand firme stable Here is to be noted that wheÌ„ the Apostle doeth tel how he hath left vs pastors doctors to warne vs of the subtletie of false teachers he doth vse a certaine greeke word very apt for this purpose the which hath in English the signification of the c I would not you had forgot this note for it doeth liuely paint out your doctours which by this their skil in cogging and cosening doe make the scriptures to haue a flexible sence alwaies sutable to the practise of your Romish Church how variable so euer that be playing or cogging at dise And euen as he that hath no great skill if he plaie with such a one he wil soone lose his money because the other caÌ„ cast what he will EueÌ„ so if a simple maÌ„ being vnlearned doe chaÌ„ce to talke with such a one as caÌ„ cog or to speake plainelie falsly interprete the Scriptures he may soone be deceaued as we see it daily happeÌ„ to many that play away put in hazard the rest of al their spiritual inheritaÌ„ce I meane the faith which hath bene left to theÌ„ by their fathers froÌ„ age to age since Christs time Thus haue the Arrians the Nestorians diuers other heretikes deceiued manie a man as I will shewe more at large hereafter The II. Chapter IN this second chapter you obserue further out of the 4 to the Ephe. before alleadged that God established a ministery in his Church that we should not be like childreÌ„ caried away with euery blast of vain doctrine thorow the subtlety of meÌ„ their crafty words full of deceit whereupoÌ„ you inferre that thereby God hath taught vs to be constaÌ„t in our faith grouÌ„ded vpoÌ„ the word of God interpreted declared vnto vs by the doctors pastors that successiuely haue coÌ„tinued froÌ„ the beginning in the same Who of vs euer either wrote spoke or thought otherwise But herein is your subtlety that you take this stil for grauÌ„ted which indeed is the maine question betwixt vs and for determinatioÌ„ wherof on your side you haue as yet saied nothing that the faith and religion which your Synagogue is in possessioÌ„ of is that faith which you speake of which we constantly deny affirming the faith religion which we professe to be that indeede wherein the Apostle would haue vs constant and setled and which hath alwaies coÌ„tinued in the Church and hath bene taught and iustified out of the word writen by the true pastors thereof in one place or other froÌ„ time to time And therfore herein you haue saied nothing but the we vnderstanding it of our faith and religion maketh as much for vs as for you We grauÌ„t you also that false teachers and wrong interpreters of the Scriptures worthily there may haue their subtlety expressed by a word importing cogging or cosening but then still we adde that your teachers a long time haue bene the meÌ„ that haue vsed and yet doe vse that cogging tricke Which if it would please you once by the souÌ„d rules of interpreting the scriptures to let your interpretations and ours be examined we doubt not but to make most manifest vnto all men quickly The III. Chapter THe place that I haue quoted of the Apostle doth shew how daÌ„gerous a thing it is to fal into the hands of such Coggers of the scriptures likewise how certaine a thing it is a Such interpretation of the doctour we will most willingly follow and if you should you would
where I rest O most beautifull amongst all women follow thou the path that thy flocke hath made before thee setting thy tabernacle or thy lodge hard by the tabernacle of thy Shepheards If wee well note and vnderstand this answere it will learne vs that that shall suffice to keepe vs from running euer astray The sense is this O thou Christian which art troubled in thy conscience not knowing because of so many heresies which way thou shalt go or how thou shalt discerne the true religion from other false doctrine take my counsaile the which is to follow step by step the flocke that went before thee If that a thousand or two thousaÌ„d sheep run ouer a plaine those that come afterward doe not they knowe wel the path that is made before them Doe not they discerne the way that the first went Yes surely although there be no Shepheard to guide them And if thou doest answere that this doeth not suffice for I doe see diuerse pathes I see the path of the Caluinistes Cant. 1. the path of the Lutherans and the path of those of the Roman Church but yet doe not I knowe which flocke I should choose To this I answere thus set thy Tabernacle by the Tabernacle of the shepheardes and of thy Pastours I meane that a Then we may not leane to yours for this can it neuer doe I would haue thee to leane to that flocke that can leade thee from age to age and from yeare to yeare vnto the crosse of Iesus Christ on the which hee was nailed at noone daies and there it is where thou oughtest to quiet thy selfe and thy conscience Then to beginne If thou doest aske the Caluinistes Where is the true faith the which as they saie doeth consist in the true preaching of the worde of the Lorde and in the administration of the Sacramentes according to the institution of Iesus Christ they will answere It is at Geneua the Lutherans will answere at Wittemberge and the Anabaptistes will answere at MonasteriuÌ„ the Vbiquitaries they wil answer at â—ubing and the Trinitaries at Petricone and so consequentlie of the rest And then pursue and aske further where it was twentie yeares agone They will saie in the saied cities but if thou come to demaund of them where it was an hundred or two hundred yeares agone if they are ashamed anie thing at all to lye they wil not answere at all for there is none of them that can denie but that Luther who began to preach his new Gospell the yeare b This is a monstrous and impudent vntruth for constantly and generally wee say and proue by the Scripture that our religioÌ„ hath plentifull warrant both in the olde newe Testament 1517 was the first beginner of all these troubles the father of al those that teach this reformed Religion Then is it farre from that place where thy frend was nailed at middaie or where hee was crucified aboue 1500. yeares agone before the newe Church was dreampt of And therefore thou maiest easilie perceaue that this flocke cannot leade thee to the place that thou doest desire and consequentlie that is not the flock that wee should followe Then let vs come vnto the Roman Church and demaund where was this flocke an hundred yeares agone They will answere thee in France Spaine England Germanie and so ouer all Christendome And of thou aske where it was 500. yeares agone c They wil say so therefore it was so they will saie In the saied places And a thousand yeares agone likewise and likewise a thousand and fiue hundred yeares agone This flocke then will not leaue thee by the waie as the others doe but it will leade thee vnto the verie time of the death and passion of d This is also most vntrue for the popish doctrine from point to point wee are able to shew when it began and how it hath growen by degrees to that which it is not in a thousand years after Christ Christ by continuance of oâ—â— doctrine and by succession of pastours which Salomon doeth call the Tabernacle of the sheepe heardes And therefore this is the place where thou must seeke thy Tabernacle and quiet thy conscience to the ende that thou bee not a lost sheepe and that thou bee not readie to turne at euerie blast of new doctrine e None such coggers as Papistes in giuing the sence of the Scriptures who make not them the rule of their practise but their practise how mutable so euer the rule to giue the sence thereof by that our new coggers of the Scriptures doe set forth to deceaue the simple sheepe The IIII. Chapter TO this fourth chapter I answere that with Salomon to finde out the true Church of God wee as well as you exhorte Christes sheepe to followe the tracte of the flocke of Christ and to feede by the tentes or Tabernacles of his sheepheardes that so they maie bee ledde on and vp to Christ himselfe But then forasmuch as wee haue learned before by that which hath beene noted in the former Chapter concerning the fashion of heretiques especiallie seeing the same confirmed in you and other heretiques and apostataes in these our daies that euerie flocke is not Christes flocke that will pretende so to bee nor they alwaies his true sheepeheardes that are so accounted wee wish euerie one that wilfullie is not disposed to suffer himselfe to bee seduced by those that falsely thus pretende to learne to bee able as Saint Iohn hath taught all true Christians in the first Epistle and fourth verse to trie the spirites whether they be of God or no which they shall and may doe in trying both the flockes and their sheepheardes by the infallible worde of Christ contained in the Canonicall Scriptures For Christes sheepe will heare and obey his voice Ioh. 10. which vndoubtedlie and sufficiently is sounded in the written worde For the Scriptures are able to make a man wise vnto saluation through the faith which is in Christ Iesus For the whole Scripture is giuen by inspiration of God and is profitable to teach to improue to correct and to instruct in righteousnesse that the man of God may be absolute being made perfit vnto all good workes 2. Tim. 3. And therefore his true sheepeheardes will feede his sheepe with the sincere milke of this worde because that is it which they must desire as new borne babes doe milke that they may growe vp thereby if so be they haue tasted how bountifull the Lord is 1. Pet. 2. And because that is it according whereunto he that speaketh must speake because it is writen if any maÌ„ speake let him talke as the words of God 1. Pe. 4. By which rule if the flockes and sheepeheardes whom wee followe bee tryed they shal bee founde the sheepe whose tracte is to bee followed and the sheepeheardes by whose tentes is safe feeding And contrarilie by this rule your flockes and sheepeheardes come to the tryall of it when you
Catholicâ teneor that is is to bee preferred before all those thinges whereby otherwise I am held in the Catholicke Church The third place likewise which you alleadge here out of Augustine as you haue quoted it serueth onely to bewray either your grosse ignorance or negligence For I finde he wrote 2. bookes against the aduersarie of the lawe and the Prophets but none in all his tomes can I finde fathered vpon him writen as you say against the aduersarie of the olde and new lawe and if you meant the former there being two bookes of that title and euery one consisting of many Chapters why speake you thereof as though he had writen but one and name not the Chapter when you tell vs where to finde the place you shall be more particulerly answered thereunto In the meane time you see in Augustines iudgement in the two other places that the trueth taught in the canonical scriptures is to be preferred before all other motiues to keepe a man in the true Catholique Church contrarie whereunto I am sure hee neither teacheth where you meane nor any where else You should therefore in his opinion farre better bestowe your time then you doe if you would bestow it in prouing by the scriptures that you your Church were stable in this trueth especially seeing trueth it selfe euen here hath enforced you to confesse that that stablenes is atteined vnto by the knowledge and intelligence of the scriptures But you adde that these scriptures theÌ„ must be vnderstoode according to the traditions of the church and the succession of the Apostles and Bishops If by the church you did vnderstande as you should the true and pure church of Christ and by her traditions and Bishops such as were sound that is such as are truely iustifiable by the canonicall scriptures as the ancient fathers Irenaeus Tertullian Augustine with others of those and former times were woont to vnderstaÌ„d them as I haue shewed before when to stop the mouthes of heretiques they did appeale to theÌ„ then wee would most willingly ioyne with you that issue by the scriptures so vnderstoode to trie whether you or we haue attained to the stablenes of trueth But vnderstaÌ„ding therby as you doe your Romish church for these last 500. or 600. yeares her traditions Bishops we say and sure we are we are able to proue it that so far of is it that the scriptures are to be vnderstoode according to theÌ„ that there is no readier way to misunderstand them and to make them to haue a mutable and flexible sence now one way now another then to make them they being so contrary as they be to the ancient sound traditions of Christs church which alwaies were consonant if not the very same to that is taught in the word writen the Bishops you meane being likewise so different from them that were in the primatiue church and ofteÌ„ also so varying amoÌ„gst themselues as they are in the interpreting of them to be the rules of right vnderstanding of theÌ„ Finally if you had any forhead or conscience you would be ashamed so to abuse your poore simple reader as you do in going about to make him beleeue that because Augustine could or did say that the church had continued in it froÌ„ the Apostles times through the succession of Bishops to his that therefore hee saied it had so to ours there being aboue 1000. yeares difference The VII Chapter YOV doe studie as much as you can to reiecte our succession and not without cause a Succession of persons without succession also in trueth neuer was esteemed knowing that this onelie doeth suffice to ouerthrowe all the heresies of those new reformed Gospellers Caluin as the most appareÌ„t doeth seeke to proue that our reason is of no force because that the Greekes haue had euer succession of pastours and yet wee doe not holde them as Catholickes But if the Reader doe well note that that wee haue alreadie saied hee shall finde the answere vnto this obiection I meane because that the Greekes haue not had succession a Holde you to this you may giue ouer your brags of succession for shame and continuance of doctrine called vnitie of faith by the Apostles the which ought euer to bee ioyned to the continuance of the Pastours to shew the true recognisaunce of the Catholicke Religion There is none that doe studie and reade of those matters but that doe knowe the vnconstant faith of the Greekes as touching the proceeding of the holie Ghost the which errour they had abiured at the last councell of Florence and yet notwithstanding they did turne to it againe besides diuerse other light things to speake moderately b You haue as many thinges of importance and more too gainesaiâ—d by your forefathers which are not approued by their ancieâ—t fathers S. Iohn Chrysostome S. Ciril S Basil Athanatius nor yet by our aduersaries at this preseÌ„t time The which errours I haue no neede to set forth in this booke for my intent is but to speake of that that pricks vs at hand because of ill neighbourhood Some doe alleadge vnto vs the c We neuer alleage this alone but together with the false doctrine and vnlawfull vocation of your Bishops and Pastours negligence of our pastours and their ill liues for the which cause they saie that the mentioned succession cannot take place But this argument is of no force For although that the carelesse liues of some Bishops and ecclesiasticall persons haue beene so great so hurtfull vnto the bloud of our sauiour Christ I meane to the soules bought with it yet notwithstanding that d Yet thus for the principall point you are glad to fly from your great prelats to your poore priests the church hath not lost the succession continuance of one doctrine as touching the administration of the sacramentes by those that were deputed by the Bishops e Indeede this kind of diuision is altogether practised in your Romish Church by your Cardinals and great prelats If one should see a Prelate doing nothing and his lieutenant doing all which of those two would you take to bee Bishop they haue both deuided their charges the one receiueth the profit the other taketh all the paine If they be both content what losse do you feele he that hath anie interest let him valewe the damadge And although that the negligence of the Bishop bee not excusable f And yet nothing more coÌ„mon wi h you then wilful continuance yea by your Popes good leaue in this sin before God with the diligence of the deputie nor his conscience cleare yet this ought to suffice that though his faults be through negligence or through euill liuing g True but such doctrine you shal neuer proue yours yet that ought not to perturbe the assurance of our doctrine the which we haue taught vs by the word of God interpreted by the true doctours that haue beene
before vs agreeing in vnitie of faith as I haue already said For neither the naughtines of h There is no such there mentioned this is your common hap in your quotations It seemes you would haue said 2. Kings 16. Achas Num. 1. nor of Ioram nor of diuerse other great sinners which are inrolled in the booke of the generation of Iesus Christ were not able to withstand the fulfilling of the promise of God made to Abraham that is to saie that he would be borne of this line Euen so the ill liues and conuersation of diuerse wicked Popes that haue followed after Saint Peter haue neuer beene a This is true and yet you neuer the nearer For though al Papists faile in faith yet his church neuer faileth able to moue Christ to breake his promise that is to saie that the faith of his Church should neuer faile Math. 16. and that the gates of hell that is to saie of infidelity which are the portes of damnation should neuer preuaile against it b I see not how that chapter or any thing therein serueth to this purpose any whit at all Esay 58. Our aduersaries therefore that take such great paines to set forth in golden legends the liues of the wicked Popes that haue beene since Saint Peters time thinking thereby to ouerthrowe the succession of the Catholicke ecclesiasticall faith c Your comparison is odiou◠neither doe wee lay open their wicked liues to that ende you speake of but to shew that your glory is your shame doe no lesse offend God then if they should go about to proue the promise of God made to the Patriarches to bee vaine because of the evill liues of their successours Therefore those that doe reproche vnto vs now that the Popes of our daies are not altogither so holie as S. Peter wee doe confesse it But they cannot deny or they will confesse vnto vs that the aboue named euil Kings Achaz Ioram Manasses Amon Iechonias and others did leade no such holy liues as Abraham Isaac Iacob or Dauid yet notwithstanding those euil Kings haue beene set forth in the generation of our Sauiour as the fathers of the iust Iesus Christ Let them iudge then that haue any witte whether this bee a great folly or no to see how these crafty coggers of the scriptures should make many simple persons refuse to be the Popes spirituall children because they were sinners seeking thereby to ouerthrow all the ancient customes of the Church The VII Chapter WHither onely your succession doeth suffice to ouerthrow all our Religion or any part of it though you here confidently say it is and suppose that to be the cause why we reiect it I refer to the iudgement of the reader by that which hitherto hath beene saied by you and confuted by me concerning the same Whereby also I doubt not but euery indifferent reader may perceiue that we haue and doe still yeelde other causes of our reiection of it and not this at all Whereas you call our Religion here heresie that you haue learned of the corrupt Orator Tertullus Act. 24. But as he tearmeth poore Paul there a captaine of the Sect or heresie of the Nazarites and the high Priest and elders saied it was euen so yet hee was not ashamed of the Gospell of Christ which they so tearmed but stoutly saied before Felix to their faces that according to that way which they counted heresie he worshipped the God of his fathers beleeuing all that was writē in the law the Prophets so though you giue vs neuer so many nicknames and tearme our Religion neuer so oft new and an heresie and haue your high Priest of Rome and your elders to bear you out in so doing we neuer a whit the more mislike of our Religion as long as wee are able in trueth to say with Saint Paul which our consciences witnesse comfortably we may that therein we doe but beleeue that which is taught vs in the canonicall Scriptures Indeede not Caluin only but euery one of vs when we haue to doe with you in this question of your succession we tell you your reason drawen frō your succession is of no force seeing the Greekes whom you account heretiques may vse that argument as well as you But to preuent this our obiection against your argument of succession you say They haue not succession and continuance of doctrine the which ought euer to be ioyned to the continuāce of pastors to shew the true recognisance of the Catholique Religion We are glad to see heare that euidence force of trueth hath wrong frō you this kinde of honest true replie to our obiection yet we thanke you not for it at all For ful gladly if our obiections had not driuen you to it perforce would you haue run on which bare succession of Bishops pastours without any mention of this Well howsoeuer you haue beene drawen to confesse thus much thereupon it doeth most euidently followe that if there be as little continuance lesse too in the Apostolicke faith and doctrine in your succession as there is amongst the Greekes then by your owne confession your succession is as weake a recognisance of the Catholique Religion as theirs And therefore the case thus standing you had neede to haue bestowed lesse paines to proue your personall succession and more to haue proued this succession and continuance of the true Catholicke doctrine for the other wtout this you see is nothing What a preposterous course is this then that you haue takē to take such leasure to bestow pains on that which when you haue gotten is nothing to find no leasure to bestow any paines on this which if you could haue proued your aduersaries would haue stoode with you no longer Enter yet into this controuersie when you will I dare vndertake if you will be tried in this case by the canonicall scriptures which as I haue shewed you must of necessity it shall easily be proued that notwithstanding all you can say against the Greekes your popish Religion consisteth of more heresies and is a greater Apostasie from the ancient Catholique Apostolique faith then theirs The greatest thing you charge thē withall is their denying of the proceeding of the holy ghost from the Father the Sonne which indeede if they denied in that sence that is obiected against them by you doubtles therin they were heretiques But it should seeme that they refuse only that word as not vnderstood of thē added as they say without the consent of the whole church to the creede of feare onely least by admitting the word they should thereby be enforced to cōfesse that he came not of one beginning but of two beginnings in the meane time vsing other words expressing in effect the same thing And if it be thus as in the last session of the Florētine councell it should seeme to be els where thē in that respect their cause is not so ill as
ouer all Christendome were not vacant they did not for their debates let to administer the precious body of Iesus and the rest of the Sacramentes to preach and teach the people doing manie other godly deedes d This is notoriously false as the stories witnes at sundry times when there were two or three Popes together each hauing his faction and one banning the other And to be briefe the Ciuill dissention at Rome did not cause the rest of the people throughout Christendome to breake the vnitie of their faith which they held before their discordes The ambition of the Popes of Rome was in nothing preiudiciall vnto those that helde the integritie of their faith nor through the reason of their ill gouernance our Sauiour Christ did not lose his rightful inheritance The VIII Chapter THat which is further alleadged in this Chapter to proue that Scribes and Pharisies must be heard and obeyed sitting in Moises chaire notwithstanding their ill liues doeth nothing at all serue to proue that your lewd Popes were to be heard and obeyed For to sit in Moises chaire is not as you imagine to succeed him in place or office but in teaching the trueth as he did and so your wicked Popes that we speake against neuer sate in Moises chaire nor in the Chaire of any Apostle or Apostolique man but in the Chaire seate in respect of their doctrine of the whore of Babylō But by that you afterwards remember of Caiphas Balaams prophecies it should seeme you were of opinion that to preach and to holde the trueth is inseperable from your Popes Chaire and office and that therefore it may not be imagined but that how lewd soeuer they were they could not but prophecy teach the trueth because these in the places by you mentioned notwithstanding they were lewde men did Indeed very fitly might your Popes these many yeares be cōpared vnto these two they resemble the one so fitly in crucifying Christ againe in his mēbers and the other in seeking to curse the people of God for filthy lucre But that vpon these particuler facts of theirs it should follow as therupon you would seeme to infer that least the Harmony of the misticall body of Christ should be brokē God alwaies hath guided the mouthes of your Popes so that they could not erre in iudgement I see no reason at al. For out of particuler facts rare vncertaine you cōclude a general and constant rule Doeth it folow thinke you Pilates wife learned by her dreame that Christ was innocēt therfore womēs dreams are alwaies true Daniel a young childe found out the vnrighteous iudgement of the iudges therefore young children alwaies shall be able to doe the like Or to cōe to your own exāples doth it follow that because Caiphas Balaā prophecied right therfore neither they themselues at other times could erre nor any of that office The Scripture testifieth the cōtrary For the same Caiphas iudicially pronoūced our sauiour to be a blasphemer Mat. 26. Paul Act. 23. chargeth Ananias sitting there iudicially as hie priest as he had iust cause to giue iudgmēt cōtrary to the law in cōmāding him to be smittē And howsoeuer Balaā the false prophet prophecied there wel it is euident by the text that it was sore against his will and that it came to passe by Gods especial power in guiding bridling his tongue And yet it appeareth after that the same Balaā by his wicked counsaile was cause of that trespasse cōcerning Peor Nūb. 31. and you may read 1. King 22. that 400. false prophets prophecied vntruly to Ahab I doubt not but God when it pleaseth him can cause your Popes as he caused these how wicked soeuer to speake the trueth For Iudas after he had betrayed his master yet before he hanged himselfe iustified his master and the Deuils thēselues oftentimes in the Gospel acknowledge Christ aright to be the son of God but thereupon it followeth not because he can doe it that therefore he wil do it alwaies hath nay rather that which is prophesied 2. Thess 2. is verified in your Popes because they receiued not the loue of the trueth therefore God sent thē strong delusiōs that they should beleeue lies for according to this faith they haue spoken O what horrible intollerable blasphemy did your hart cōceiue your pen to your perpetual infamy vtter when vpon occasion of Caiphas prophecy vttered by him either not woting what he saied or rather as Cyril in his 8. booke vpō Iohn Chap. 3. noteth hauing a malitious purpose thereby to persuade the Iews that it was expedient to put Christ to death least the whole nation should bee destroied by the Romans you doe set downe these words that Christ did confirme his pontificate with the gifte of prophecy with the which hee was as fully inspired as Dauid Esay or any of the rest O what iniury in these wordes haue you done to those holy prophets and to the Spirit of God in them as thus to match them with this cursed hell-hounde Wee must holde that they were indued with the Spirit in such measure as that in their writings and sayings wee must be sure they did not erre or els the ground of our faith which is their writinges is shaken whereas this wretch euen the same yeare as I haue shewed you pronounced Christ to bee a blasphemer and therefore most deuilishly erred And indeede hee was wholy destitute of the Spirit of God not onely then but euen in this also for as I noted before out of Cyrill he in vttering of those words had a deuilish meaning and intent though God by his secret power so ordered his speech as that his wordes might also cary this sence that it was expedient that Christ should die for the saluation of man as there also the same Cyrill obserueth And therefore for this he is no more to be saied to haue had the Spirit of trueth to direct him then you may say the deuils and Iudas had that I spoke of before Why then doeth S. Iohn vpon these wordes of his giue this note that he was high Priest that yeare because it pleased God so to tēper his wordes vnware to him that whereas he spake to hasten the death of our sauiour his word sounded that the people should vtterly perish without the death of Christ which was most true but not his meaning By this monstrous comparison of yours we may learne that it is no marueile that you that durst make this beastly comparison dare compare your pastours and Bishops how wicked soeuer both for life and iudgement in Religion which the ancient true pastours of Christs Church Yet hereby you haue taught vs to trust your lofty and swelling comparisons the worse as long as we liue You striue with your owne shadow in labouring to proue that the effect or fruite of the ministry of the word and sacraments dependeth not vpon the life of the minister For it is a
shewing by al lineal succession how you came to it from Christ his Apostles but thereby also you haue quite ouerthrown our claime This is easily saied wel bragged of you but it is more then either you can or meane to proue O yes saie you we can as it were going vp vpon the ladder of Iacob mount from step to step vntil in the top we come to those that first taught the Catholique faith in Tholossa Paris and Guienna as to S. Saturim Denice Martiall and Gratian and to the rest of the Saints It may be these were Saints you speake of and yet you haue not shewed vs that yea it may be also you can frō age to age euen frō that time to ours now name vs the persons that haue succeeded one another from those men you speake of but you shal neuer be able to proue that all these persons which haue succeeded haue continued in the sound Apostolique faith and so haue deriued it down frō the first to you that be the last which vnles you proue this climing vpō this ladder you talke of wil doe you smal pleasure But you are so confidently perswaded that the religion that you are in possession of now is the very same that was taught the Church of Christ in the beginning that you denounce him anathema be hee man or angell that preacheth against it Yet this is no proofe that it is the very same For you may be deceiued and if God would giue you grace to read and rightly to vnderstand the Scriptures sure I am that euen in thus saying you would finde that you haue as far as your authority reacheth cursed and excommunicated your own selues your whole Church So far of are we though it please you stil to cal our religion a new Gospel from being afraid to ioine with you in anathematizing them that preach any other Gospell then Christ and his Apostles preached at the first that withal our hearts we say Amen thereunto And therefore for all your supposed newnes of our religion we wish with all our hearts according to Iohns counsell 1. Epist 2. that that might abide which wee haue heard from the beginning We thinke Tertullian saieth most truely that cōmeth from the Lord is true that is first deliuered that is strange and false which is brought in after De praescrip aduersus haereticos Wherfore we say also most willingly with him in an other place in his 4 booke against Marcion Id est verius quod est prius c. That is truer that is former that is former that is from the beginning and that is from the beginning which is from the Apostles But then we conclude with him De praescriptione aduersus haereticos Vndè autem extranei inimici Apostolis haeretici nisi ex diuersitate doctrinae c. How are strangers and enemies to the Apostles knowen but by the diuersitie of doctrine which euery one of his owne minde hath brough forth and receiued against the Apostles therefore let deprauation of Scriptures and their exposition be accounted to bee where the diuersitie of doctrine is founde hitherto Tertullian and wee with him and therefore doe not charge vs any more with newnesse nor make your bragges anie more to deceiue the simple of antiquity vnlesse by the Scriptures wherein the simpliest knowe the Apostolique doctrine is contained indeede you can proue your doctrin to agree with theirs and ours to disagree For you may not thinke that you can cause them that haue any witte or discretion at al left them to beleeue that your doctrine is the same that was taught at the first by the Apostles because you can say so or because you can tel them their father grandfather and great grandfather tooke it so as long as they see you are loath to come to the triall with the learned whither it be so or no by Gods writen word Euen herein thundering out your Anathema though you would seeme therein stout and resolute in your religion yet if your words be wel marked it may euidently be perceiued that like a dastard you shunne the trial of your doctrine by the writen word For you say If any body come to teach vs any other doctrine then that which hath beene taught vs at the beginning I do not say writen in booke no take heed o◠that but printed in our harts let him be Anathema c. wherby you bewray your minde namely to be this that when it shal come in trial what that religiō is that was preached at the beginning you would not haue the Canonical books of the old and new Testament to determine the matter but that which was then writen in mens hearts whereby you meane your vnwriten traditions But I pray you how shal we know what was writen in mens hearts by the ministry of the Apostles better or more safely then by that which they wrote Especially seing as Irenaeus hath tolde vs that which they preached at the first after by the wil of God they committed vnto writing to be the foūdation piller of our faith in his 3 booke Chap. 1. As for your vnwriten word to speake most moderately you knowe the credit thereof is suspected and certaine it is it must agree with the word writen for God is one and selfesame both in writing and speaking or els worthily may it not be suspected onely but flatly also reiected as a false and counterfait word which but that you know it doeth not you would without any such correction or explanation of your meaning haue saied simply that you would haue him held Anathema that preacheth any other doctrine thē that which is writen in the books of the scripture But your owne conscience telling you that yours was another doctrin then had warrāt fro thēce before the curse should drop out of your pen you thought it wisdome least in your own knowledge you should haue cursed you selues to tel vs that you directed your sentence not against those that teach another doctrine then those bookes wil warrāt for of such you allow well enough or else you should disallowe your selues but against those that teach another doctrine from that which was writen in our harts so leauing to your selues liberty to make the poore people beleeue that that was whatsoeuer you would deuise O this is too too grosse paltry dealing in matters that so much concerne the souls of mē as this doth especially in this so great light that shineth now euery where amongst vs. As for your liues the liues of your pastors and great bishops though they be such as worthily you may be ashamed of yet if they had continued in the profession of the trueth therein we would haue held for al the other communion with them But seing their liues haue bene such a long time as there were neuer worse in Sodom nor any where els witnes your own stories Benno Cardin Platina Sabellicus Abbas Vsperg and others
but especially their doctrine hath bene directly contrary in a multitude of most material points of Christian religion to the doctrine taught vs in the Scripture as I shew in diuers places of this booke wee haue as we are counselled Apocal. 18. seperated our selues froÌ„ you and them least by holding society with you in these your sinnes we should in the iustice of God haue beene driuen also in the end to bee partakers with you in your plagues And therefore to conclude this chapter though you bragge that you haue two things to quiet your consciences withal that you beleeue a doctrine that your pastours the vniuersal Church haue taught you 1500. years and that their ill liues cannot hurt you yet in deede and trueth you haue neither of both for your ill liues being ioyned with ill doctrine hath bereaued you of both so you haue had nether the vniuersal Church of Christ but a particuler Synagogue of your own nor any sound or good pastour either for life or religion these 600 or 700 yeares to teach you your faith The X. Chapter NOw to turne vnto the taking of your accompts maie it please you to shew vs how you haue followed the steps of the flocke of Christ according to the counsel that we gaue to his reasonable sheepe as we haue saied before who hath taught you the way that you doe follow what doctours were your first tutors who hath taught you that the precious body of our Sauiour is not really in the Sacrament of the Altar who hath taught the doctrine or if it be not griefe vnto you heresie which you would haue vs to receiue as a Gospell I know before hand that you will alleadge me Iesus Christ and his holie Apostles whose steppes you doe professe to follow preaching euery where that there is no difference betweene your Church or to say trueth Synagogue the church of the Apostles But I pray let me vnderstand by what means you can ioine your selues vnto the Church of the Apostles seing that a This is an impudent vntruth you condemne cut off all the Christians that haue beene are betweene you them For to verifie this I will alleage no other but your owne workes for Caluin in his Institutions at the Treatise of the Supper of the Lord speaking of the oblation of the bodie of our Sauiour Christ as it was offered in olde time he doeth write punctuallie these wordes Caluinus in suâ institutione traditâ de Coenâ Domini I finde saieth he that those of old time haue changed this fashion otherwise then the Institution of our Sauiour did require seeing that their supper did represeÌ„t a certaine spectacle of a strange inuention or at the least of a new maner There is nothing more sure vnto the faithful theÌ„ for theÌ„ to holde themselues vnto the pure ordinance of the Lord by whoÌ„ it was called a supper to the ende that onely his authority may be our rule Yet it is true that when I consider their good meaning and that their intent was neuer to derogate froÌ„ the onely sacrifice of Christ I dare not condeÌ„ne theÌ„ of folly and yet I thinke that one cannot excuse theÌ„ that they haue not somewhat failed in the exteriour forme for they haue followed more the Ceremonies of the Iews theÌ„ the order of Iesus Christ did permit And this is the point in which they ought to be resisted for they haue conformed to much vnto the old TestameÌ„t not contenting theÌ„selues with the simple institution of Christ they haue to much inclined themselues vnto the shadowed Ceremonies of the Iewes law These are Caluins words The Reader may by them see well how this noble Reformer of the Gospel doeth correct al ages and Churches bee they of Martyrs CoÌ„fessours Doctours Interpreters Preachers or any others from the Apostles time vnto our age yet doeth he not denie but that hauing some regard of their simple ignoraÌ„ce he is content to be so good to theÌ„ as for this time not to condemne their errour or impietie because that which they did was with a good intent but yet fearing that the bearing them to much fauour would trouble his conscience he giueth sentence against them saying that a Yet this proueâ—h not that for the which you alleadged him they ought to be resisted because they were not content with the onely institution of Christ but rather that in this case they haue followed the shadowes of the Iewes Now for my part I thinke Caluin his fellowes so scrupulous that they would not ioine themselues vnto persons that are spotted with Iewish Ceremonies b Are you not ashamed thus to bely him is it not euidâ—nt in his words that hee speaketh but onely of some in olde time And because that all maner of people how wise soeuer they were from the Apostles time vntill our daies haue fallen into this errour he doeth counsel my masters his deformed followers according to his sentence to follow none of them at al but only the pure word of the Lord preached by Iesus Christ and by his aboue mentioned Apostles The X. Chapter IN that by the Scriptures we are able to iustifie our doctrine and therfore diuerse times haue called vpon you to come to that trial and yet cannot by any means bring you vnto it that we are sure that that doctrine therein warranted hath alwaies by God by the meanes he hath appointed for that purpose beene preserued and continued in his Church You returning now againe to take accounts of vs how we haue followed the flocke of Christs sheep that weÌ„t before vs fed by the tents of his shepheards are answered And yet for your better and more plaine satisfying who hath taught vs the way that we follow who were the Doctours that were ouâ— first tutors we answere you that Christ his Apostles EuaÌ„gelists in the new Testament were our first tutors since them in the principal points of our religion the aucient Fathers whose names and monumeÌ„ts are knowen vnto the Church that liued for 1000. years after Christ those that I named vnto you before in my answer to your 4 Chapter But particulerly you would know of vs who hath taught vs to deny the reall presence of Christs body in the Sacrament of the altar Here I suppose you meane by real presence that real presence which is in this case now taught and receiued in your Church vnder the formes of bread and wine to the mouthes of al receiuers be they faithful or faithlesse for otherwise none of vs doe deny a true and most certaine presence of Christ to the faith of the right receiuer This theÌ„ being your meaning we do not onely as you suppose answere you that we haue learned of Christ his Apostles to deny it but also of al the ancieÌ„t writers of credit accouÌ„t in the Church for 700 or 800 years togither since we haue bene coÌ„tinued in the same
needes be a monstrous mishapen thing in ioyning the Christians of these later daies with the Apostles without any betwixt and fosâ—â—ating as it were the feete of the body hard to the eares without any other members betwixt the one and the other And thus hauing framed this mery conceit in your owne heade you call vpon your frendes to laugh at it with you and so you proceede in telling vs that whiles we take this course we fly without wings and climbe without a ladder and despise the counsell of Salomon which after your maner you interpret that we should reckon by succession the pastours that haue succeeded in continuance of one kinde of doctrine the which you say you haue shewed you haue done To what purpose now is all this seeing in trueth neither we doe thus cut of all Christians betwixt them and vs neither haue you shewed any such succession of pastours downe from them to you continuing in your doctrine Truely to no other purpose can they serue but to expresse your owne ridiculous vanity Howbeit because you called in the former Chapter for the names of those that haue caught vs to deny your real presence in the sacrament and vpon a conceit in your owne fansie that you haue posed vs you haue growen to bee thus full of these swelling wordes of vanity and because I feare neither you nor many of your disciples will vouchsafe to peruse those books that I sent you vnto for answere in that point yet haue hope that for your sake some of you may chauÌ„ce vouchsafe to reade this I will not sticke with you particulerly to satisfie your request a little further First therefore vnderstand that we haue learned to deny your kinde of reall presence of Christ himselfe the institutour of this Sacrament because he hath flatly and vehemently affirmed without exception Iohn 6.54 that whosoeuer eateth his flesh drinketh his bloud hath eternall life Whereas by the meanes of your doctrine it followeth because all that receiue this sacrament haue not faith but manie lacke it that it shall bee eaten of manie that shal be neuer the better by it but the worse We haue also further learned it of him in that in the same Chapter speaking of the eating of his body drinking of his bloud he drew his hearers from a grosse conceit of eating drinking him by their bodily mouthes by vsing of the word beleeueth in stead of eateth and drinketh ver 40.47 and cap. 7.38 by mentioning vnto them his ascention Iohn 6.62 lattly by saying vnto theÌ„ It is the Spirit that quickeneth the flesh profiteth nothing the words that I speake vnto you are spirit life ver 63. This finally we haue learned of him saying If any shall say vnto you Lo here is Christ there is Christ beleeue it not Math. 24.23 by his continuing at the table when he first instituted and ministred it vnto his Apostles without alteration either of his place or forme Mat. 26. Mar. 12. Luke 22.1 Cor. 11. The Apostles euaÌ„gelists haue also taught vs to deny it in that they teach vs that he visibly asceÌ„ded into heauen that he shall so also come againe wheÌ„ he coÌ„meth froÌ„ thence c. Act. 1.11 especially seeing his comming to iudgement is called his secoÌ„d comming Heb 9.28 and vntil the restitutioÌ„ of all things it is saied by Peter the heaueÌ„s must coÌ„taine him Act. 3.21 The EuaÌ„gelists in laying downe vnto vs the story of his natiuity life death so prouing vnto vs that he was is a true and perfect maÌ„ encourage vs also least we should with the Marcionites other heretiques denie the trueth of his maÌ„hood coÌ„tantly to â—â—â—y your reall preseÌ„ce for the maintenance whereof you are driueÌ„ to fansy a nuÌ„ber of things quite contrary to the nature trueth of his maÌ„hood And lastly in that reciting the words of the institution they tel vs that Christ commanded that to be done in remeÌ„brance of him Luke 22.19 1. Cor. 11.24 there Paul saith v. 26. As often as ye shall eate this bread drink this cup ye shew the lords death till he coÌ„e which words plainly argu that though the sacrameÌ„t be both rightly ministresâ— receiued yet it inferreth not any such real preseÌ„ce as you ther imagâ—â— Now betwixt them vs we finde infinite places in writers of all ages that teach vs still to denie your reall presence but amongst many marke these for example TertulliaÌ„ in his 4. booke against MarcioÌ„ interpreteth these words Hoc est corpus meum thus that is to say This is a figure of my body Augustine against AdamaÌ„tus the Manichee c. 12. writeth that christ doubted not to say This is my body wheÌ„ he gaue a signe of his body vpoÌ„ the 3. Ps he saieth that Christ admitted Iudas to a baÌ„quet where he coÌ„meÌ„ded a figure of his body to his disciples vpoÌ„ the 98. Ps he saith yee shal not eat this body that yee see neither shall yee drinke that bloud which they shall shed that crucify me I haue coÌ„mended vnto you a certaine sacrament it being spiritually vnderstoode will giue you life In his 3. booke therfore of Christian doctrine he writeth thus This saying of Christ Except yee eate the flesh of the son of maÌ„ c. seemeth to coÌ„mand an heinous thing a wicked therefore it is a figure coÌ„maÌ„ding vs to be partakers of Christs passioÌ„ keeping in our minds to our great profit coÌ„fort that his flesh was crucified wouÌ„ded for vs. c. 16. he saith It is a miserable slauery of the soule to take the signes for the things signified in the same booke c. 5. And therefore in his 23. epistle he telleth vs that the similitude betwixt the signe the thing signified is the cause why the one beareth the name of the other in sacrameÌ„ts in his 57. questioÌ„ vpoÌ„ Leuitic he giueth vs this rule The thing that signifieth is woÌ„t to bear the name of the thing which it signifieth as Paul said The rock was Christ not it signified Christ but eueÌ„ as it had bene indeed which neuertheles was not Christ by substaÌ„ce but by signification So that his vsual doctrine is to teach vs in this sacrament to seeke christ in heaueÌ„ by faith thereby to make him present which otherwise is absent as you may read in his 50. tract vpon Iohn els where very often And with Augustine the rest of the fathers consent in this matter therefore nothing is more coÌ„moÌ„ with them then to call the outward part in this sacrament a signe figure similitude resemblance or representatioÌ„ as it appeareth in these places Chrysostom in his 83. Homil vpon Mat. Hierom in his 2. booke against IouiniaÌ„ Ambr. in his 4. booke of the sacraments c. 5. Basil in his lyturgy Ephr in his 4. booke against the impugners of Christs manhood by humane reason And Origen vpoÌ„ Leuit hom 7. teacheth vs that the letter
the vaine successioÌ„ of persons wherw t you decked yourselues they haue added the successioÌ„ of true doctrine with you had corrupted So that what good soeuer was in your vocatioÌ„ ours had it also besides since they haue had confirmatioÌ„ of their ministry amongst theÌ„selues and by the consent approbation of the people amongst whoÌ„ they haue ministred The XIII Chapter IF that the good doctor * Cip. 1. epist c. 6. S. Cyprian had beene in these our daies might he not well haue saied against your schollers that which he did write against a CipriaÌ„ cals him that he speakes against Nouatianus who was a Roman and the disciple of Nouatus of Africke That Nouatus Nouatianus were two seuerall persons it appeares in Ciprian lib. 2. ep st 8. 9. Nouatus there needed no other but insteede of Nouatus to put in Caluinus or Zuinglius nomine mutato de vobis fabula narrabitur Seeing that the saied S. Ciprian doeth hold affirme that Nouatus ought to be accounted as no Bishop because he succeeded no body but rather that he did make himselfe a Bishop b These words you adde for they are not in Ciprian without any imposition of haÌ„ds Then to what purpose I praie you are ye of the opinion that c This is but your slader saying for both these were and so are wee able to proue that they had sufficient warrant for their calling Caluin Zuinglius are such faithfull ministers considering that they are as farre from prouing the confirmation of their ministrie as euer was Nouatus You will answere mee that you haue no neede of the imposition of hands of the Papists superstitious Idolaters infidels But this maketh your cause neuer the better for if you are so scrupulous by nature that it goeth against your consciences to come to kneele to our Bishops you should I say in tunes past haue required your ancient ministers to haue giuen you a warrant for the confirmation of your estate when one doeth demande of you since when your Religion began you are not content to claime the beginning froÌ„ the Apostles but rather stepping hardlie forwarde ye are not content to staie at Dauid or Abraham but you must needes fetch it from Abel d Yea euen from that doctrine that God taught Adam and Eue in Paradise though it grieue you yea from Adam And if one should spurre you forward you would go I knowe not whether Then seeing that your church is so ancient and that it hath indured till our daies if we will beleeue you it is not like to be true that it hath beene destitute altogether of ministers for although it be so that God did greatlie afflict the Israelites with the captiuitie of Babylon yet did he neuer leaue them without comfort of good doctours such as Daniel Ezechias e Whence proue you that they had there a proâ—â—er then named Abdias Or that there was then any Prop â—â—named Ezâ—chias but it may be you would haue saied Ezechiel Abdias and manie others Euen so you that thinke in your owne heades to bee the people of God I cannot thinke if it bee so hee would so haue giuen you ouer as to want ministers to comfort you in your afflictions and to ordeine your ministerie by the in position of handes f These 2. whiles they were yours and so others as Luther Lucer Capito Carolstadius OecolaÌ„padius and the rest had calling either to be priests or to be ordred by your owne Bishops or at least to be doctors of Diuinity by the vniuersitie wherein they were brought vp And after these two were ours the one had an ordinary calling by the presbytery magistrate and people of Geneuae the other of Zurich and so had the rest in the places where they taught What staies you that you doe not go to them seing that you haue nothing to doe with ours And if you say that you haue done so doe vs so much pleasure as to let vs heare their naÌ„es in what time they did florish or otherwise you maie pardon vs if wee giue no credit to your fained imaginations The XIII Chapter YOU boldly adde vnto Cyprians wordes these words without any impositioÌ„ of haÌ„ds for neither where the other words of his with you recite are nor yet any where in that epistle doeth he once mention the ceremony of imposition of haÌ„ds Neither can Cyprians saying against Nouatianus whom you cal wrongfully and ignorantly Nouatus truly be applied either to Caluin or Zuinglius seing they had as I haue read the ordinary calling vocation of the times wherin they liued euen from your selues For as for Caluin his father got him a prebend or benefice in a Cathedrall church and a curateship in a towne hard by of a Bishop of yours where he was borne which would not haue beene giuen him vnles he had beene within orders I think And Zwinglius it is wel knoweÌ„ was a CanoÌ„ in the cathedral church of Zurich 2. or 3. years there liuing preaching before he was ours And so I read the other preached also in his cure before he was ours whereby it should seeme that the one had imposition of hands to holy orders as you terme them of some Bishop of France and the other of some Bishop likewise of Germany Now after when as by force of the trueth they grew to be of our Religion so came out of Babylon to vs they both were according to the order of those churches where they serued called orderly to the ministry of the Gospell where also they both succeeded others that went before them Neither of which could Nouatianus truely alleadge for himselfe and therefore Ciprian saith that he was neither in the church nor Bishop But seeing we account our church so ancient as that when we are asked when our Religion began we will say it hath beene euen from AdaÌ„ also that euer since it hath endured and continued you say it is not likely that it hath at any time beene altogether destitute of ministers For though God did afflict the Israelites for their sinnes with the captiuity of Babylon yet he did neuer leaue them without coÌ„fort of good doctours as Daniel Ezechiel Abdias and others therefore seing we haue nothing to do with yours we either haue or should haue sought them out haue taken imposition of hands of them which if we haue done you wish vs to tell you their names when and where they florished To answer you indeede for the substance of our Religion we say it is the same with God himselfe first taught AdaÌ„ in paradise For first he was taught to serue God not according to his owne will but according to the law that God gaue him Secondly he being found a traÌ„sgressour of that holy will of God after he was brought to see his sin the danger thereof he is sent for recouery by Gods promise only to the promised
to God the consciences of his superiours The XVI Chapter NOT we but your Romish Iesuites and seminary Priests are the sowers of that seede of sedition that you speake of neither is it we but they and such like of your side which when they haue so done alleadge onely for their defence their ardent and Apostolique zeale and affection to winne soules This in England and Ireland these late yeares hath notoriously and very often beene found true in these and questionlesse other kingdomes where the Gospell is preached and established haue and doe finde the like For they go vp and downe secretly vnder the pretence of reconciling men and women into the bosom of their mother Church to alienate their heartes from their naturall soueraigne to the obedience of a forraine potentate and so prepare them against the time when opportunity shal best serue to procure the death or deposition of their lawfull Prince And that thus without anie offence to God they maie doe they perswade themselues by vertue of the Popes bull in that therein they bee absolued from their alleageance vnto their home supreme magistrate and are thereby also taught that in furthering either his depriuation or death they shal doe honourable acceptable and meritorious seruice to the mother church of Rome These thinges I say haue of late yeares too too often here in England in open places of iudgement beene manifestly proued against your Iesuites and Popish Priestes and therefore as traitours a number of them and their followers haue beene most worthely executed Which thinges being so euident as they are great shame is it that yet you should not blush to charge vs with these thinges whereof yours are most famously guilty and whereof truely you cannot conuict any of ours You tell vs wee should haue praied to the Lorde of the haruest to thrust forth more labourers thereinto as Christ hath commanded vs Math. 9. and not as you quote it Math. 15. and that in the meane time we should haue reformed our selues and not haue taken vpon vs without some expresse commaundement from God a matter of such importance as the reformation of your estate is According to this counsell of Christ wee haue praied to the Lorde of the haruest and he in his mercy towardes his Church hath heard our prayers and wee hope will euery day more and more to the full ouerthrowe of yours and perfect consummation of ours But that in the meane time they whose eies God hath opened to see the Babylonish confusion of yours should there haue staied as you would haue had them vntill they had a further commission from God then already they had for so you must needes meane by that further commission or expresse commaundement that you would haue had them first to haue had you can neuer proue For they whose ministrie it pleased God to vse to detect your Antichristian doings according to his worde 2. Thessal 2. in these later daies were such as namely Wickliffe Iohn Hus and Luther that had not onely the ordinary calling of those times to feede Gods people as pastours and doctours but also they were such as God had blessed with rare and extraordinary giftes of knowledge and zeale and therefore if they seeing the abhominations of your Synagogue and the grosse blindenesse and errours that you still laboured to holde Gods people in had contented themselues onely with praying vnto God for the redresse therof with reforming of thēselues had not saied their hands shoulders to the work vsing the talents that God had bestowed vpon them to his best aduantage without a further new and expresse commaundement then they had alreadie receiued in the writen word should not they with the vnprofitable seruant Math. 25. haue had their wages They tooke not in hand to doe as they did as you would make your Reader beleeue onely vnder the colour of zeale without expresse warrant from God their Lorde and master For beside their zeale and knowledge by their callinges in that they were famous doctours and pastours in their times they were bound by Gods expresse worde Esay 58.1 Ezech. 33.6 7. and in sundrie other places to doe as they did But to bring vs and our ministers into hatred in this Chapter you labour to perswade your reader that as of burning zeale they haue in many places dispossessed your Bishops and Priestes of their places so as Gods Lieutenants and as men voide of all partiality for thus tauntingly it pleaseth you to write they wil proceede against ciuill magistrates both higher and lower in like maner because many of them haue beene and be as you say as ill liuers and rather worse then your Popish Prelates haue beene Which to bee an vnlawfull thing and the cause of all confusion and horrible disorder you bestowe a great deale of needelesse paines to proue for it is a thing that wee teach and vrge in earnest and you your practise to the contrary beeing so vsuall as it is considered onely in iest and for a fashion teach it But indeede this is the way which the malicious and ancient enemies of Gods Church haue alwaies vsed to disgrace the true seruants of God by with the Kings and Princes of the world and therefore you doe well in that you are nothing behinde them in malice enmity against Gods people in that you studie also to be like them in this Wee reade you know after the returne of Gods people out of their captiuitie in Babylon when they beganne once to build and to go forward either with Gods house in Hierusalem or the walles of that City alwaies this was one of the practises of their enemies to labour their discredit to the hinderance of their worke to accuse them to the Persian Kings to intende therein sedition and rebellion against them Ezr. 4. Nehem. 6. And it appeares Iohn 19. it was the principallest meanes whereby the high Priest and the Iewes prouoked Pilate to giue sentence against our Sauiour that they tolde him that he was not Caesars frend if he deliuered him thereby insinuating though in trueth hee had both payed tribute vnto Caesar and had taught others both by example and word publickly to yeelde vnto Caesar whatsoeuer was due vnto him Math. 16. 22. and they of all other did most repine at Caesars iurisdiction ouer them and their cuntrey that hee was one whose doings and doctrine tended to the supplāting of Caesar In like maner Act. 17. 24. wee finde it one of the vsuall meanes that the vnbeleeuing Iewes and other lewde people then when none in their hearts regarded Caesar and his authoritie lesse vsed to discredit the Apostles and their doctrine to accuse them to be seditious and such as cared not for Caesars decrees Neither did this practise die when the common weale of the Iewes ceased for it appeares in Euseb lib. 5. cap. 1. and in Tertullians Apology in sundry places that there was nothing more common in the primatiue Church
of his trueth out of his written word to call you from this newe found pretended religion of yours to the ancient and true catholicke faith which we haue learned out of the scriptures and of alsound antiquity you not onely burst out into this vaine and monstrously false brags of the antiquity of yours and nouelty of ours but also knowing in your own consciences that your folly therein wil soone be descried you cal then for miracles to confirme and warrant this our commission by which you would faine proue to be as necessarie for vs in this case as it was for Moses in his time thereby to confirme his Wherunto I say as vpon the like occasion S. Augustine said in his time de ciuitate Dei l. 22. c. 8. Whosoeuer yet seeketh after miracles that so he may beleeue he himselfe is a mōstrous miracle who the world beleeuing yet beleeues not For if our doctrine be the same that the Apostles taught as we are alwaies ready and by GODS grace able to proue it to be by the vndoubted woord of God then their miracles are so many seales of this our doctrine and so it beeing thereby sufficiently confirmed already by miracles needles is it to require any further confirmation thereof now by new miracles againe But you seeme to take it for granted that we stand either very much or altogither vpon the extraordinarines of our vocation and therfore supposing that such a vocation must alwaies be confirmed by miracles you call for them the rather thus earnestly at our hands Concerning which point I haue tolde you already that though in such ruins of the church as you had brought it vnto it bee no strange thing with God to stir vp men extraordinarily to seeke the reformation thereof as he did many of the Prophets yet neither the first ministers which in these later daies he hath vsed to this end amongst vs nor those that he hath vsed since to go on with that which the others began rely onely vpon an extraordinary calling for as I haue shewed both the one and the other haue had outward ordinary calling Besides you must vnderstand that a man may haue an extraordinary calling as had Nahū Abdia diuers other of the prophets who yet you cannot shew euer wrought any miracles to confirme their calling withal And to vse Chrysostomes words which he vsed against such as you in that commentary vpon Matth. Hom. 47. which you father vpon him what miracle wrought Iohn Baptist which instructed so many and great Cities For the Euangelist saieth he wrought none Iohn 10. And yet who therefore may lawfully say that he had no lawfull vocation or good commission Againe you know by that which is writen Deut. 13. 2. Thes 2. and elswhere that false prophets yea Antichrist himselfe may and shal seeke to seduce men and to draw men from God by miracles therefore there God forwarneth his people thereof that if notwithstanding they suffer themselues the rather to be peruerted thereby they may be voide of al excuse Wherefore seeing there haue bene sundry true prophets extraordinarily called that yet haue wrought no miracles and also many false prophets that haue wrought them and may doe agayne to what purpose should you thus call for miracles as though they straight might lawfully be refused that worke them not and they safely alwayes followed that doe them Howsoeuer you seeme to pretend that if we should worke miracles you would beleeue vs yet certayne it is that if we should worke neuer so many you would as little for all that beleeue vs as the blinde and superstitious Iewes beleeued Christ and his Apostles for all the myracles wrought by them but this is onely a shift of yours as long as you may to dazell the eyes of the simple For questionles if myracles would serue the turne beside sundry miracles indeede which the stories doe testifie haue beene wrought by God in the protection and propagation of the religiō which we now professe euē this is a miracle of miracles that Luther lyuing in such a time as he did should doe as he did to so great effect wtout miracle yet in the end maugre al his enemies which were many mighty to die quietly as he did in his bed So that al these things considered it appeareth I hope sufficiētly to the indifferent reader that you haue no such aduantage against vs for miracles and you pretend But because your obiectiō in this behalfe is so egerly prosecuted by you I wil not refuse to follow you frō step to step to yeeld you a more particuler āswer to whatsoeuer you haue sayed in this matter First therefore whereas you would insinuate to your reader that we doe wrong in comparing the misery that the poor people were in vnder your Popes to the misery that the people of Israel were in in Aegipt vnder Pharao their deliuerāce frō the Romish yoke to the deliuerāce of that people frō the bōdage of Aegypt we graūt you we make that comparison sometimes we are sure that therein there is offred no wrong at al vnto you For both in vniuersality continuannce of time and extremity both to soule bodie the slauery vnder your proud antichristian Popes hath exceeded theirs vnder Pharao in Aegypt and consequently the deliuerance of the people from that of yours must needes beeing as it is both more spiritual and general then that of theirs was much exceed that of theirs But that therefore it is as necessary that wee should anew work miracles to confirme our vocation to doe this as it was for Moses to confirme his calling to doe the other thereby therin you are both deceiued seeke also to deceiue others For Moses by God was shewed that he should so confirme his and so are not we that we shal or ought so to confirme ours and his calling thereunto was not onely extraordinary whereas ours in great part at least as I haue shewed hath bene to this ordinary but also the thing it selfe and the means to bring it to passe both in the eies of Pharao al others were strange miraculous wheras in this our case in delyuering mē frō your antichristiā seruitude bringing thē to the liberty freedome purchased for thē by the bloud of Christ by the preaching of the worde of God sincerely ministring his sacraments accordingly both are wōted ordinary For what is more ordinary with God then to bring mē frō error to trueth that by these means in his church The thing that Moses was sent to doe was a new strange thing for a man of his quality wtout force of war weapons to deliuer so great gainful a people out of the hands of such an hard hearted tyrāt it is wōderful therfore it was likewise necessary that the means that he should effect that by especially should be miracles Finally there was no certainer way for Moses hauing to
to the same Psal 119. you must also remember that it is writeÌ„ Wo to him that calleth good euil Esa 5. striue to enter in at the streite gate Luk 13. Al this notwithstanding in your opinion we are like to a false merchant pretending to be the Princes seruant in his masters name demaÌ„ding mony of his debtters hauing neither his haÌ„d nor seale to warraÌ„t his demaÌ„d and all this you say would perswade to be true because we worke no miracles as the Apostles did I deny your argument for we haue our Lord masters hand and seale in his writen word in that therby our doctrin is taught as it appears therby is sealed both by miracles with the pretious bloud of our lord sauiour yea but say you if yee be the Apostles successours in preaching this doctrine why doe ye not confirme your doctrine with signes and wonders and say with the Apostle Paul 2. Corinth 12. the signes of our Apostleship haue beene accomplished amongst you with signes and miracles Hereunto I answere that then it was necessarie for them so to doe and yet now it is not likewise for vs because then for the newnesse and strangenes of diuerse things incident to their ministrie miracles for the first confirmation thereof for a time were necessary whereas now we taking vpon vs only to preach the same doctrine as we doe it being then thereby sufficiently confirmed it is needles now to confirme it againe thereby The XVIII Chapter YOu a And so we may still for any reason that you doe shew to the contrary doe answer vs as the Iewes were answered by Christ when they did demande him to shew some miracles * Mat. 12. The generation adulterous peruerse doeth demaund signes but no signe shal be giuen them c. But this comparison cannot bee applied vnto vs for we are not so hard of beliefe as the Iewes nor you such faithfull messengers of God as Christ was of whom the Iewes did demande some signes of obstinate hatred after they had seene so manie lame healed so manie blinde receiue their sight so manie deafe heare and so manie dispossest that had spirites but as for you b The power of our commission hath stretched so farre as to the harts griefe of al your Synagogue your Romish Babylon is so falne that ye eueÌ„ despaire of euer recouering the glorious pompe of your Babylonish harlot againe we haue seene your coÌ„mission not to haue extended so far as to restore a flie to life againe or to heale a lame goose although that greater matters are required to confirme so strange and so new a reformed Gospell These wordes doe make you mad crying out and preaching in euerie place that your church ought c We say and preach thus and we are well able to stand to it not to be called newe but rather that it is olde Apostolicall that your doctrine is the very same that S. Peter S. Paul did preach And to drawe the simple people to beleeue that that you say you doe declare your faith saying that you doe beleeue doe preach that there is one God in Trinitie of persons and the second which is our sauiour became man from the wombe of the virgin and that he suffered and did rise againe to be briefe you shew that you haue profited in your Religion for you haue beene but fortie yeares which is the time since it began in learning the great creede the Pater noster the which you could not learne in a thousand and fiue huÌ„dred of ours But in all this you say nothing to the purpose for we doe not demaÌ„de of you whether you can well your Catechisme d If we had had no better catechisers then you we should neuer aright haue vnderstoode either Creed the Lords praier or the coÌ„mandements the which you hauing learned of vs you teach to others And as Sampson saied Iud. 15. If you had not laboured with my cowe ye would neuer haue hit my riddle That is to saie that if that our Church had not nursed or taught you which are her rebellious children you would haue knowen nothing for it is of our Church that you haue learned the principles of your faith e Howsoeuer these had tâ—â—ir bringing vp and maintenance for a time amongst you they had their learning true knowledge no more froÌ„ you then Paul had of the Pharises She is the Cowe that hath nourished Caluin in a Canonrie of Noyon Theodore de Beza in the Priorie of Louinnam hard by Paris and consequentlie all the other ministers which haue learned all that they know at the conuent of S. Francis S. Dominick S. Augustine and of S. Bennet where ye were nourished spirituallie as touching your doctrine and temporallie as touching the mainteining of your studie at the charge of that church against the which ye doe now so striue f These others haue sought to be thankful to you for these things as Paul sought to be thankfull for the like to the Pharisees and Iews in seeking their reformation and conuersion as the camels which sometime reward their masters for their good keeping with yerking biting so that colour it how you list ye cannot deny but that ye set forth new deuises For although it is so that your heresies which to please the eares of the vnlearned yee call the reformed Gospell pure word of God haue beene in times past g This is but your spitefull vaine of popish railing without either trueth honesty or reasoÌ„ yet they were buried in the verie depth of hell you haue raised them againe cloked with new colours But although it were so that your doctrine were not new but verie olde h If either our office or errand were extraordinary you say somewhat but both being ordidinary there is no like reason that miracles should bee wrought by vs as by them yet ought not you to be more priuiledged then Moses and the Prophets whose simple and plaine wordes the world would not beleeue although they preached no new doctrine no more then you saie that you doe Moses did shew manie miracles in Egypt and why was the principall cause to deliuer the children of Israell out of the captiuitie of Pharao No surelie for to what purpose I praie you should God shew such great power and might against a simple worme of earth Is it like to be true that he should mooue the whole heauens with such great darkenesse * i Exod. 19. to sende so manie notable plagues to bring him to yeelde which had confessed his wickednesse for the torment that he suffered with the flies the frogs and Grashoppers Surelie no he himselfe doeth shew the cause it is to the end that my name be knowen ouer all the earth that is to saie that men should know that he is God If we come to the Apostles wee shall finde likewise that
their doctrine was not new for whē they begā to preach vnto the gentils Idolaters i For the 9. they did not at the first preach Iesus Christ but they did seeke to blot out of the minds of the simple people the foolish opinion that they had in the multitude of Gods to teach them that there was but one God who had created the heauē earth who sendeth raine in time of neede all things els that are required for the sustenāce of mā k This he preacht but this was not al therefore he preaching somewhat that was new both to Iewe and Gentile namely that Iesus was the Christ therefore in that respect he his fellows had need to confirme their doctrine by signes and wonders This is the doctrin that S. Paul did preach as we read in the * Act. 14. Acts. This doctrine was not new amōg men although it were so that they were Painims l And therefore you bestow much needelesse cost to proue this point no new doctrine touching the vnity of the Godheade and the verity thereof for not onlie in Moses lawe nor in the law of Grace but euen by the lawe of Nature God hath beene knowen euen of those which were not of the familie of Abraham Isaac Iacob vnto whom the promise of the incarnation of Christ was made Of this doeth Abimilech the King of Gerar beare witnesse who did excuse himselfe before God for the wife of Abraham hee could neuer haue knowen how to talke thus with God if he had not knowen him * Gen. 20. Besides this he made Abraham to swear by the inuocatiō of the saied God that neither he nor his heires should suffer anie dammage by his posterity * Gen. 24. Bathuel did likewise know God whē he cōfessed that he was the authour of the mariage of his daughter with Abrahams son euen so Abimilech the king of the Palestines Phicol Ochosath saied vnto Isaac We heare that God is with thee therfore we are come to make alliance togither * m Judg. 2. Adonibezeth although he were a Gentile did not he confesse one God m Iudg. the first you would say when he saied that he had giuen him the selfesame punishment that he had giuen the .70 kings Iob al his frends although they were Gentiles haue auouched one God to be the Creatour of heauē earth euen aswell as the Israelites as it doeth appeare by the discourse of the said Iob. If we read the histories of the Paynims we shal finde that they beare witnes of one God among themselues Diogenes Laertius ◠the liues of the Philosophers doeth write that the Emperour Adrian did demaunde of a Philosopher celled Secundus what God was He answered God is an immortall spirit incomprehensible containing al the world a light and a soueraigne goodnes True it is that this Secundus was bolder to speake of God then another Philosopher called Simonides of whom Tullie doeth write in his first booke De naturâ deorum vnto whom when the tyrant Hiero did demaunde of him what God was that he had giuen him diuers daies of respuit to answer him at the last he saied that he did acknowledge in him an infinite of al things Cicero himselfe in the first question of his Tusculanes doeth gouerne giue the being to all things And in diuers places of that worke he doeth wel expresse that he knew wel that there was one God and that the Gods that the Gentiles did worship were but mortall men And in the saied booke he saieth that we know God by his works in the which hee doeth not much differ from Dauid saying * Psal 18. That the heauens declare the glory of God and the firmament doeth anounce his workes And in the 40. Chapter of Esay when God did talke with the Gentiles he did cal his works to beare witnes of his greatnes Lift vp your eies saieth he and beholde who hath made this And the * Sap. 13 Sage doeth say that men through their vanity haue not knowen God by his works And * Rom. 1. Saint Paul doeth absolutely condemne them saying that they can procure no excuse of ignorance for the inuisible things such as is the diuinitie of God maie be knowen by the visible thinges And therefore they are vnexcusable hauing hidden the trueth of God to vniustice for after that they haue knowen him they haue not giuen him that thankes and honour that they should haue done but they haue beene deceiued through their owne subtilitie making a profession of knowledge they haue beene founde foolish and ignoraunt S. Augustine 8. lib. de Ciu. dei cap. 24. doeth reckon Mercurius called Hermes Trimegistus among these forasmuch as he did continue in his owne errour although he knewe by that that one maie see in his owne writinges that his auncetours did err greatlie in the making and worshipping of so manie Gods The XVIII Chapter INdeede euen as you suppose in this case we further aunswere you as the Iewes were answered by Christ telling you that you are an adulterous and peruerse generation in thus demaunding signes to confirme a doctrine already of ancient time sufficiently confirmed But this answere you say cannot be iustly made to you because neither we are faithful messengers from God as Christ was nor you so hard harted as these Iewes were Trueth it is we dare not compare in faithfulnes with Christ for such comparison were odious but with S. Paul we protest that in seruing the God of our fathers according to that Religion which you count heresie beleeuing all that is writen in the law the Prophets we haue alwaies endeuoured to keepe a good conscience both before God and mā Act. 24. and as for you we see no cause to the contrary but that you may both for malice against the trueth and hard hartednes be compared with the Iewes For though we worke no miracles and they then had seene Christ to worke many yet our doctrine beeing the same that he taught and no other as we are alwaies ready and willing to proue it to be by the scriptures it hath beene confirmed not only by all the miracles that then Christ had wrought but also by all them that since were wrought by him or his Apostles to confirme the same and therefore you yet refusing to beleeue it shew as great hardnes of hart as they did rather more Indeed if we took vpon vs either any callings not warrāted by the Lord in his word or to preach any doctrine which we could not warrant by the canonicall scriptures you might with some reason call for some miracles of vs but seeing you cā proue neither of these against vs you may with more reason giue ouer this obiection then to pursue it any further Indeede we are not ashamed to confesse that these are two principall reasons which are here remēbred by you wherby we proue
saluation Act. 4. and that none are to be called vpon in whom we beleeue not Rom. 10. you teach vs to beleeue in many thinges and persons besides the Trinity so to be apostataes from our creede forme of baptism And besides whiles you teach vs this doctrine of inuocatiō of saints and Angels cōtrary both to the beginning and ende of the Lords praier you also teach vs to pray vnto them to whō we may neither begin nor ende our praier as thereby we are taught And therefore you dealing with vs in these pointes and diuerse others being so grosse as it is and was if we had had no better warrant to receiue these partes of the Catechisme then your worde we should haue had small courage to haue receiued them as from you But Caluin Beza and other of our famous ministers in the teeth with hauing their education and maintenance at their bookes first with you comparing them in that now they set themselues against your corruptions vnto Camels with reward their masters for their good keeping with yerking and biting Whereas in trueth if you had grace to see it they could no way shew themselues more thankefull vnto you for the same then by carefull and diligent labouring your conuersion and reformation as they haue done S. Paul you know was brought vp at the feete of Gamaliel a notable Pharisee was himselfe at the first by profession a Pharisee and so had his educatiō and maintenance at the first amongst such what then will you resemble him to your yerking Camels because after when it pleased God to open his eies and to conuert him to Christ hee preached and wrote against the errours of the Pharises laboured their reformation why should you then euen for imitating of S. Paul thus vnmanerly compare these men or any other whom it shall please God to stirre vp in like maner to seeke your good Still you call our Religiō new deuises now further you adde that though it haue beene in times past yet it was buried in the very depth of hell we haue raised it vp againe giuen it new colours All this cannot make vs ashamed of the Gospell of Christ which we know to be the power of God to saluatiō to euery one that beleeueth to the Iewe first also to the Greciā Rom. 1.16 For these are but bare words how spitefull malitious soeuer and we know that when it was preached by Christ himselfe and his Apostles it had as hard sentence oft giuen of it by the superstitious and blind Scribes and Pharises and yet for all that it mightily preuailed then and so doeth and will now Yet it is well that in some sorte now you will confesse it hath beene before for very confidētly before in your 4. chapter you set downe that none of vs cā deny but the Luther 1517. began it first but as you did well in this and spoke truely so in adding that it was yet buried c. you speake not onely malitiously and blasphemously as one day though I feare to late you shall be driuē to see but also vntruely For you cannot be ignorant but as it was before Luthers time professed and taught by Petrus Valdus Iohn Wickliffe Iohn Hus so therein they had their followers in Bohemia Calabria Angronia diuers other places and that in great nūbers euen vnto Luthers time and lōg after And as for colours we vse none to countenance this trueth but the natiue naturall colours which the scriptures allow it for we thinke it most sincerely preached when it is most simply set forth onely in these colours other colours we leaue to you to decke vp the garish whore of Babylō withall At last so earnest a procter or crier are you for miracles that you are contented to ioine with vs vpon this point that though our doctrine were not new but very old yet we must ought to confirme it by miracles And this you labour to proue because the doctrine that Moses the Apostles were sent to preach was not new but old yet they were furnished with power to worke miracles to cōfirme that old ancient doctrine For Moses wrought his miracles you say especially to this ende the Gods name might be knowen ouer all the earth that is to say that men should know that he is God the Apostles as you say at their first preaching preached not Iesus Christ vnto the Gētils but that there was but one God which by a number of testimonies you labour to proue was no new doctrin to the heathen Painims but a thing which by the light of nature left in them and by the view of Gods works many of them atteined vnto all might in such sort as that they are without excuse for that they worshipped not God as God This is I confesse directly to the matter and some shew these things cary I graunt of proofe of that which you toke in hande thereby to proue But if we examine well those things and weigh the weight of this argument wee shall finde small or rather no force at all therein to proue indeede the thing intended thereby For though God saie Exod. 9. not 19. as your quotation is that for this cause hee had set Pharaoh vp to shew his power in him and to declare his name throughout the whole world as in working of all miracles at all times that is an especiall ende that the Lord hath And though that bee no newe doctrine that hee is God and but one and that both Moses and the Apostles taught this yet this proueth not but that otherwise both Moses and they had newe and strange matters giuen them in commission for confirmation and effecting whereof it was necessarie for them to worke miracles For Moses especially was called and appointed by God as it appeareth Exod. 3.4 and 5. Chapters to this ende to signifie vnto Pharaoh that it was the pleasure of God that he should dismisse his people Which because the Lord had purposed notwithstanding the harde heart of Pharaoh to bring to passe therefore Moses was by his direction to worke the miracles hee wrought So that the next ende of working of them was to confirme this his newe and strange message to Pharaoh and to cause it to take place though therein the Lord had another further ende namely thereby to get himselfe a name for euer So in like maner though the Apostles preached the God that made heauen earth to be the only true God as it appeareth they did Act. 14. 17. which was no new doctrine indeede in it selfe considered yet it appeareth in the same places that it was newe there For in the one place they worshipped Iupiter and Mercurie for Gods and in the other an vnknowen God And besides it is euident that not onely their office was extraordinarie in that immediately they had their calling frō God and their charge without limitation but also
that within the compasse of their coÌ„mission they had to doe many new and straÌ„ge things namely to call the Gentils to the fellowship of the Church to preach the abrogation of Moses ceremonies to administer new sacrameÌ„ts to ordeine new officers in the Church as Euangelists pastours and doctours and especially to preach Iesus Christ to be the person of the Messias god and man the onely and sole Sauiour of the world for which things sake it was needfull for them to worke miracles howsoeuer it was needeles in respect of the other old doctrine concerning the one true God And therefore to make it appeare that their miracles were wrought especially for the confirmation of this point that Iesus was the Christ the person of the Messias alwaies they worke their miracles in his name whereas wee doe not preach some one point of olde doctrine onely but altogether from point to point our doctrine is olde and hath beene sufficiently by Christ and his Apostles already confirmed by miracles neither haue we any newe but the olde ordinary offices of pastours and doctours to publish it and indeede wee take vpon vs no newe or strange thing but labour as nigh as possibly we can to conforme our selues euerie waie to the patterne shewed vs of ancient time by Christ and his Apostles Wherefore vnlesse as you haue shewed that Moses and the Apostles taught this one olde lesson that there is but one God and that he is he that made heauen earth so ye could haue shewed also that they wrought al their miracles to confirme that that otherwise besides that they had no new strange things to doe teach for confirmation whereof miracles were needeful therefore done by theÌ„ this that you say of theÌ„ is nothing to binde vs to worke miracles doing nothing or teaching nothing otherwise then was done and taught 1500. yeares ago and more by Christ and his Apostles and so you might haue spared all that you haue saied or can say to proue that this is an old and no new doctrine that there is a God that he is but one The XIX Chapter LActantius Firmianus in his book of his diuine institutions cap. 5. vvriting against the GeÌ„tiles doeth proue that there is but one God he doeth alleadge as witnesses all the olde learned Philosophers such as Thales Milesius Pythagoras Anaxagoras Cleanthus Anaximeus Crysippus Heno Plato Aristotle Seneca and others Octauius likewise a Christian Oratour disputing against Cecilius as theÌ„ a Gentle doeth alleage likewise to confound these olde Philosophers and he doeth adde more Xenophon Spensippus Demaritus Strato Theophrastus many more * a Act. 12. S. Paul likewise preaching to the Athenians doeth protest a Act. 17. you should haue said that he doth teach them no new thing but rather him vvhom they did vvorship did not know By the vvhich it is plainelie to be seene that the Apostles did not announce vnto the people anie new law for it vvas verie olde and notwithstanding they did confirme it vvith miracles And if you saie that although those learned Philosophers had aknowledge of God as it doeth appeare by their vvorkes yet there is fouÌ„d in them no mention of Iesus Christ and therefore that it vvas necessarie to approue that doctrine vvith signes and miracles But contrarivvise that you in your new reformed Gospell doe preach the olde Apostolicall lawe I doe answere you to this that the 9. Sybilles b Though it was foreseene that such a one shuld come yet that Iesus the sonne of Mary was he was new and needed such coÌ„firmation by miracles did speake of his comming and birth euen as plainelie as anie of the Prophets and amongst other Sybilla Erithrea did as fullie Prophesie of the comming of our Sauiour to iudge the quicke and the dead as anie other Prophet at S Augustine doeth testifie c Ther is nothing once sounding that way In other places I graunt he speaketh hereof but he no where thâ—s matcheth them with the Prophets Lib. 1. de ciui dei cap. 23. Likewise of his death and passion and of the miracles he should doe before his death The Oracles of the false Gods haue likewise declared vnto the Gentiles the coÌ„ming of Christ as Lactantius Firmianus doeth vvrite * Liâ— 1. cap. 15. li. 4. cap. 15. in his booke of the diuine institutions Nicephorus in like maner doeth vvrite how Augustus Cesar sacrifising to the God Apollo Pithius in his temple could get no other but a verie briefe answere then Cesar did demaund why hee could not make him then as fullie answere as he did at other times Apollo vvas constrained to saie the trueth the vvhich was that a young Hebrewe childe borne of late did commaunde him to retire himselfe into his hell d You text and your margent agree â—oâ—y our margent is right and the other wrong vnto vvhom he was forced to yeelde obediently forasmuch as he was God and gouernour of the other Gods therefore that he did couÌ„sell the saied Cesar quietlie to retire himselfe to make no more adoe the verses are these Me puer Hebraeus diuos deus ipse gubernans Cedere sede â—ubet tristemque redire sub orcum Aris ergo dehinc tacitus abscedito nostris The XIX Chapter YOur proofes in this Chapter out of Lactantius and Octauius that the doctrine of one God is olde and ancient in that they induce the olde learned Philosophers as witnesses thereof and that which you alleadge to the same ende spoken by S. Paul Act. 17. and not as your quotation is Act. 12. might well inough haue beene omitted For as it is a thing not in question so also as you may perceiue by that which I haue saied in mine answere to your former Chapter it proueth not the thing you intend for that both Moses and the Apostles had other matters in their commission that were new and strange for confirmation whereof they wrought their miracles and not for this purpose only But foreseeing that we would in some part answere as I haue shewed that the doctrine of Iesus to be the person of the Messias yet was new in respect whereof it was necessarie for them to approue their doctrine by miracles you would proue that that was not new neither and so your meaning is that the oldnes of our doctrine caÌ„not proue miracles to be vnnecessary But let vs heare how you proue this In this Chapter you proue it by the testimony of the nine Sibils especially of Sibilla Erithrea the rather for Augustines testimony of her in his 1. booke of the citty of God c. 23. though indeede there be no mention at al of her in that place who you say did speake as plainely fully of his comming birth miracles death comming to iudgement as any of the Prophets out of Lactantius 1. booke 15. c. of diuine institutions out of Nicephorus by the oracle that Apollo gaue of him to the
yet without fruit to the receiuer the benefit indeed arising by his presence onely to the faith of the communicant the matter is not of so great moment weight as that either you should neede to make such a doe about or that the maintainers therof should neede to striue so eagerly for Which I hope God will in his good time reueale vnto them and so make them to giue ouer their contention and to grow into vnity in this matter with their brethren I cannot but tell you yet before I end this Chapter that you verie greatly belie vs when you write that we haue giuen absolute sentence that the catholique Church hath erred euen from the Apostles times vnto this present in praying to God for the soules of those that are dead constituted in a third place called Purgatorie For both your deuyses of Purgatorie and of praying to God for the releife of soules there wee saie and constantly defend to bee but popish deuises founde out and grounded but vpon humane reason dreames and fond visions and apparitions and neither taught by the Apostles nor any true pastour of the Church of Christ for three hundred yeares at least after Christ Tertullian was the first and that in a booke writen by him when hee was a Montanist that makes any mention towardes the allowance of prayer for the dead And vntill the Florentine councell the greeke Church could not be brought to ioine with you in this doctrine of yours as you knowe well inough And therefore it had beene more for your credit and honestie to haue spared this your merrie conceit and pleasant deuise of wishing vs though wee refuse your Purgatory to prouide a thirde place for them whom our contentions make constant on neither side For either if you had beene wise you would haue vttered that your conceit with more trueth in your first entrance into it or els you would haue let it alone for altogither The XXIX Chapter IT doeth appeare well by that that I haue saied howe the assurance of your vocation to the ministerie is but founded vpon sande for asmuch as you doe seeke particulerlie a contrarie meaning euerie one to his ovvne particuler sense beeing not this the waie that an extraordinary minister sent from God shoulde vse to confirme his doctrine for this hath beene the custome of all olde heretiques as I haue alreadie saied There is a verie great difference betweene setting forth the Scripture to refourme ones religion and to reforme ones conditions for when there is anie question of the refourming of ones maners a Good stuffe by this diuinity then men may by the warrant of the Apostle take the scriptures in diuers and sundry sences there is no need to regard whether the doctrine be new or olde for as the Apostle saieth let euery man take it to his owne sense but when it is to bee talked of as touching ones faith the Catholique ought greatly to beware of b And such be all they whosoeuer made them that will not stand with the rest of the scriptures of whâ—ch kinde your popish interpretations be singular interpretations and to holde them as very suspitious c If this rule be receiued and followed your popery will bee found new deuises and wil you nil you you shall become all one with 〈◊〉 He ought to follow the sentence that is holden and taught by the ancient Catholique Church without making any accompt of al these new deuises for euen as when one will repaire an olde house he dares commit it to any mason although his cunning bee but small but if the foundation must be touched he will seeke the best masters he can finde Euen so when one will correct me for my euill life or conditions although that it be so that he that seekes to reforme me be not of the wisest of the worlde and that he alleadge to me some place or figure of the scripture not altogither to the purpose yet all this ought to turne to me to one effect for I knowe his meaning although he cannot well expresse it the which is to haue me change my naughty life and to leaue my ill conditions d But all the packe of you shall neuer be able to proue â—opery to be thus grounded But when he shall come to touch my faith and to perswade me froÌ„ that that all my ancetours did euer holde from that that the Catholique church deriued from the Apostles hath holden and doeth holde and from that that both the Scripture and the generall Councels and all the ancient doctours teach and affirme in the repaire of this foundation I ought to trust none but euen the verie best I meane not one or two but all these that I haue named And now if you saie that they maie all erre I praie remember the olde prouerbe that saieth he is a foole that thinketh that he onlie is wise and all the other fooles that it is more agreeable to reason that one onely should erre then one great multitude for as they say commonly two eies see more then one and foure more then two The XXIX Chapter WHat you haue gained by all you haue hitherto writen to disproue either our vocatioÌ„ or Religion for all your great bragge here in the beginning of this Chapter by weighing togither your obiections and my answers now let the indifferent Reader iudge vnto whom I doubt not your bragge notwithstanding it shall and will well appeare that both may be builded vpon the rocke for any thing you haue yet saied The onely new thing that you set downe in this Chapter is this that the former variety amongst theÌ„ that alleadge scripture considered you allow well that one should listen to meane men alleadging scripture though not very aptlie to reforme maners withall But when they are alleadged to teach faith then it is meete that the Catholique man trust none but the best and those alleadging them according to the general Councels and all ancient doctours And therefore you write that the Catholique must take heede of singular interpretations that he must follow the sentence helde taught by the ancient Catholique Church not suffer himselfe to be perswaded from that faith that all his ancetours did euer holde the Catholique Church hath euer helde the Scriptures generall Councels and all the ancieÌ„t doctours doe teach In which case if one should take vpoÌ„ him to be wiser then all these you would haue him according to the prouerbe accounted a foole that thinketh himselfe onely wise and all others fooles because in reason it is more likely that one should erre then al these c. Be it that al this were very true what haue you woonne hereby against vs For neither shall you euer be able to proue as we haue often tolde you that your religion is that ancient Catholique religion nor your Church to be the ancient catholique Church nor that your Church hath either the Scriptures general councels or
this life to proue both the popish purgatory and praier for the dead let vs but take a vew first in what sence they haue spoken thereof how vncertainely and inconstantly And to begin with Origen both because hee was the ancienter because hee was first named in the very second place here quoted by Albin he speaketh of purging in the fire of hel and in the other of purging in such fire as will consume in them that hold the foundation their wood hay stubble that they built thereupon that so when their soules depart from their bodies they maie go to heauen which with those vnconsumed they cannot which consuming fire he saieth is God For his words in the latter place are these He that despiseth the purifications of the word of God and doctrine of the gospel reserueth himselfe to sorowful paineful purifications that the fire of hel in torments may purge him whō neither the Apostles doctrine nor word of the gospell hath purged And in the other preaching I am sure they wil graunt to men aliue and not to the dead his words the better to make thē to looke whiles they were aliue that they caried no wood hay nor stubble with thē vnconsumed be these if after Christ the foūdatiō thou buildest thereupō not gold siluer pretious stones only in the minde if thou hast any such but also hay wood stubble what wouldest thou be done with thee when thy soule shal be seperated frō the body Whither wilt thou with thy wood hay stubble enter in to the holy places and so defile the kingdome of God Or for thē tary without for the other leese thy reward which is not meet neither What followeth then but the first for these fire bee giuen thee to cōsume thē But God is the cōsuming fire of these whereupō a litle after he exhorts al mē that haue any such matter in them that they would know their owne faults in time amend them The first place is in his 8. booke and 11. chapter vpon the Romans and the other in 12. homily vpon Hieremie euen as Albine cyteth him Now who seeth not by this that the purging place that he speakes of in the second place is hell it selfe and that the other is in this life whiles Gods childrē warned in time whiles they are here doe let the fire of Gods spirite both reueale vnto them and consume in them all their vnsuteable building to the foūdation whither it be in religion or maners what places then were these vnles the papistes bee growen now to be of opinion that the partition wall betwixt hell and their purgatory is quite pulled downe and al become verie hell or else that their purgatorie is in this life to alleadge either for purgatory or praiers for the deade Further touching Origens fansies about purging after this life August de ciuitate Dei l. 21. c. 17. saith that the very diuell his angels after certaine grieuous and long lasting punishments shal be freed and deliuered from those torments and ioyned againe in society with the holy Angels as Origen beleeued And vpon Luke hom 14. Origen himselfe saieth I think after the resurrection from the dead we al shal stand neede of a sacrament to clēse and purge vs for none can arise againe without his defilings And vpō the 36. Ps hom 3. he writeth that he thought that it was needful that all should come into the purging fire though hee were Paul or Peter and of the same mind he seemeth to be vpō the Num. hom 25. which if you vnderstād of any purging fire of tribulatiō or of the inward effectuall operatiō of the fier of Gods spirit to lightē to purge consume our darke sinfull and erronious harts for so sometime hee and others of the ancient writers speake then these places make nothing for your purgatory which is after this life if otherwise you vnderstand him of some fire to purge after this life so neither is he anie procter for your purgatory to the which you sende onely the middle sort neither very good nor very bad A man therefore may wel think that you are neere driuen for proofes for your purgatorie or prayer for the dead when you run to these or anie such places in Origen that speaketh thereof so variablie and not onelie farre from your sence but sometimes euen in your owne iudgement aswel as in ours very heretically Now as for Augustine if what he hath writen of purgatory be well considered your arguments from him will proue as weake as from Origen For whereas some of you alleadge him vpon the 103. Psal serm 3. for purgatory it is plaine that he there speaketh of that purging by fire which he supposed would be in the end of the world whē all should be on fire and the good separated from the bad which fancy he rather chused to fall into then to holde with Origen that there is any purging in hell The same Augustine most commonly vnderstandeth that place of S. Paul 1. Cor. 3. of the fire of tribulalation and affliction wkereby men are tried and purged as he proueth out of the scripture in this life as golde in the fornace And as for a meane place of purging any betwixt death the iudgement he writeth sometimes confidently that there is none such and sometimes he leaueth it in doubt For in his fifth booke Hypognost against the Pelagians he acknowledgeth heauen to bee the place for the godly and hel-fire for the wicked but a third place saieth he we are altogither ignorant of neither doe we finde any in the holy scriptures In like sort de verbis Apostoli ser 14. he acknowledgeth these two againe but a middle place hee vtterlie denieth because there is no mention thereof in the gospell I know it is answered that when he saieth thus hee setteth himselfe against the Pelagians third place which they assigned for infants dying vnbaptised But then yet I reply and say if hee had beene resolued of the popish third place purgatorie hee would and should haue saied there was no fourth place and not no third if to this it bee reioyned as I know it is by some that he disputed not there whither there were any more places then two before the last iudgement but whither there were any more then two euerlasting receptacles after that iudgement also to continue and that in that sence onely he was resolute there was but two how then will they shift that of his de ciuitate Dei lib. 13. cap. 8. where deuiding all that die into good and bad immediately vpon their death he saieth that the soules of the Godly separated from their bodies are in rest and the soules of the other are in paines whiles the bodies of those rise againe to euerlasting life and the others to euerlasting paine which is the second death For here they cannot deny he speaketh of the time state of soules before the
being on your side but in that they were of ours as they were and as I haue saied wee christianly perswade our selues that their soules are in heauen And you fearing belike for all your cauilling that touching these ancient doctours confessours and martyrs that this would be our answere because you knew it might iustly be so you were content quickely to giue ouer the pursuit of this question and to aske vs this what wee thinke in our conscience of those that maintained cōfessed your faith Religion whither they be condemned or no And to feare vs from saying they be vpon the necke of this you aske vs if it were so why then was the bloud of Christ shed affirming confidently that if this were so that then it had beene better that Christ had neuer suffered This indeede I doe know to be one of your common bugges whereby you seeke to make the simple affraide either to forsake you or to ioyne with vs saying when you see men about thus to doe what will you condemne all your forefathers And to this end with manie words you āplifie the goodnes of the forefathers what an vnchristian cruelty it is to cōdemne all our ancient forefathers Before I come to the answering of which obiection I cannot but tell you that in setting downe so bluntly boldly as you haue that if they that confessed and maintained your Religion be condemned that then it had beene better that Christ neuer had died you haue vttered grosse intollerable blasphemy For though none such should be saued by the death of Christ thousand thousands both haue bene and shal be saued therby better it were that al such as you meane should for euer be condemned then that this speech of yours had any trueth in it But to answer this your obiection taken frō the dangerousnes of condēning forefathers because by the nāe of thē you keep men as you doe in your Romish and Babilonical captiuity first the reader is to vnderstand that an argument takē frō forefathers simply without distinction but as you doe this of yours in matters of Religion is not good For Ez. 20. we read that the Lord saied thus vnto his people walke not in the preceps of your fathers neither obserue their maners nor defile your selues with their idols And Dauid saieth Ps 78. Let thē not be as their forefathers were a disobediēt rebellious generatiō c. And the like warning the people had Psal 95. Zach. 1. Ier. 11. Whereupō Peter telleth the Christians to whom he wrote that by the bloud of Christ they were redeemed frō the vaine cōuersation of their fathers 1. Pet. 1. If this argument had beene good when Christ came sent his Apostles abroad to preach the gospell to al natiōs our forefathers in all natiōs then did ill in receiuing the doctrine of the gospell For their forefathers for some 1000. yeares before had held professed mainteined heathenish paganisme And it seemeth that many of the heathē then vsed this very argument of yours to keepe men in paganisme still For such an obiectiō I read both made by thē answered by Peter as it is writē Clemētis lib. 5. recognitionū by Ignatius ad Philadelphēses by Augustin in quaest veteris noui testamēti quaest 114. By this reason saied Peter as Clemēt reports it If a mans father be a thiefe or a bawde the child must be no other To such as saied they would beleeue no other gospell thē they foūd their forefathers had Ignatius answereth my antiquity is Iesus Christ whō not to obey is manifest damnation That which was before saieth Augustine the Paganes say cānot be bad To whom he answereth saying as though antiquity may preiudice trueth For thus might murderers wantons adulterers other lewd liuers defend their wickednesses because they are old haue beene frō the beginning saieth he So that both scripture reasō the ancient fathers themselues teach vs that it is not alwaies safe to cōtinue in the Religion wherein our forefathers liued died and so easily we may perceiue that this your argument how cōmon soeuer it be with you is of no force For it hath beene the old argument of Pagans doubtles is at this day the chiefe argument that keepeth Turks Jewes from yeelding to the Gospell least then they should condemne all their forefathers But as your argument is naught so your antecedent is false also For albeit that our Religion differ from yours as it doeth yet farre is it from vs that therefore we condemne all our forefathers For first we know that frō Christ wel near 1000. yeares they thē that professed Christ for the most part liued died holding the foūdatiō many other principall points of religiō with vs therfore of their saluatiō we doubt not Secondly euer since howsoeuer a nūmber fell away frō the trueth seemed wholy to be yours yet we are perswaded we know it to be true especially since Petrus Vald his time who was 400. yeares ago there haue beene great knowen multitudes openly ioyning with vs in the chiefest points of our religion dissenting frō you as I haue shewed before And when there seemed to be fewest yet we beleeue that that God that could did preserue vnto himself in the litle kingdom of Israel in such a miserable time asking Ahabs time was 7000. that there had not bowed their knees to Baal that the God I say euē whē popery seemed to haue preuailed most according to the comfortable visions that Iohn had to that end Apoc. 7. 14 yet had preserued vnto him in al the kingdomes and prouinces of the world infinite numbers that yet neither in forehead nor hand would beare the marke of the beast of all these we hope well also Thirdly euen concerning such of our forefathers as seemed to the world to be of your religiō we thinke a number also are saued For euen amongst them there are .3 sortes to be cōsidered The first sort are they that liued and died in all your grosse and erronious opiniōs The second are they that though a long time they seemed to liue in them yet ere they died God caused to see the vanity thereof at least cōcerning your doctrine of iustificatiō so through the sight of their sins in his mercy he brought them to die protesting that they trusted not to be saued in part nor in whole by their owne works or by any other meanes but onely by his free mercy through Iesus Christ alone The third sort is of them which though they were yours for some outward ceremonies that they were contented to vse with you in that they held some other fond opinions with you yet neuer ioined with you indeed in seeking for saluation little or much by any thing that you taught them to put their trust in that way but only looked for beleeued to attaine vnto it for that which Christ
traditions because they wil not stand with the plaine scriptures themselues we reiect Otherwise we are ready alwaies to proue our sence thereof to agree with the ancient Church her doctours better then yours can And as for the variety amongst vs of interpretatioÌ„s which you charge vs withal sure we are it wil neuer proue so great as hath beene and is amongst you or as is betwixt your interpretation and that which was of them 900. yeares ago and therefore for any thing you haue yet saied you your selues are the rouing sheepe froÌ„ the ancient sheepfold you are they which whiles men slept haue sowed cares amongst the good corne and which are the sheepe sicke in religion as well as in maners and not we And therefore they that haue ioined with you whosoeuer they haue beene are like at the day of iudgement to smart for nothing more then for taking part with you And so to conclude this Chapter whatsoeuer hitherto you haue gained at the handes of the simple by these your vaine and swelling wordes you shall hereafter loose ten times as much amongst them that are wise thereby The XL. Chapter I Know wel that you will take this confession of mine to your aduantage saying that for feare of being infected with our superstitious diseases you haue seperated your selues froÌ„ the coÌ„mon flocke but if you doe consider my first words they haue barred you al maner of waies to reply iustly for I haue already saied that although wee be sickely weake sheepe as touching our doings or maners yet in regarde of our faith thaÌ„kes be to God we are safe sound keeping stil a Indeede you haue saied and saied it againe againe but yet you haue neuer proued â—t nor 〈◊〉 that integritie of religion that by succession of pastors we haue receiued froÌ„ the Apostles without adding or diminishing any thing to the ground of our Catholicke beliefe for as for ceremonies the Church hath vsed the euer as touching the time the place to the honour of God edification of our neighbours b Your antichristian religion is that that hath caused vs to separate ourselues from you as wee are biddeÌ„ Reue. 18. vers 4. therfore if you did seperate your selues froÌ„ our kinde of liuing to lead a holy solitarie life as the holie Heremites Saints haue done in times past forsaking the coÌ„uersation of the coÌ„mon people to liue in coÌ„teÌ„plation without seperating theÌ„ selues froÌ„ the coÌ„munioÌ„ of the Church in the which they haue beene baptised had receiued their faith your doings had beene as much worthie of praise in that respect as now they are daÌ„nable considering how you forsake the coÌ„moÌ„ tabernacle within the which both you we haue receiued the sacraments of regeneration our spiritual food altogither And to the ende that no body run astraie froÌ„ the right path that he should follow the good ChristiaÌ„ ought to fixe in his minde this resolution I meane to serue God to liue in the catholicke faith coÌ„monlie or priuatelie for wheÌ„ there is any questioÌ„ put as touching the life the coÌ„moÌ„n are c This is a right popish glosse that is a plaine peruerting of Christs meaning as * Mat. 7. Christ doth say doth lead one to perdition the narrow waie doeth guide vnto the part of saluation But if one speake of religion the contrarie is verified for the coÌ„mon way is the waies of health the priuate waie is the path of damnation d And this is an other The Prophet Dauid in the 24 Psalme had a regard to this when he praied God to teach him his waies by the religion his pathes by the maners and customes The XL. Chapter YOu were deceiued in thinking that we would pretend your euil maners or your difference in ceremonies for the defence of our seperation from you For we haue alwaies protested that it was especially your Antichristian doctrine that hath caused vs to accouÌ„t that Reuelations 18.4 Go out of her my people that ye be not pertakers in her sins and that yee receiue not of her plagues directly spoken to vs concerning your Romish Synagogue and religioÌ„ And therfore is it that we haue so seperated our selues from you as we haue because we find that you are apostataes long haue bene from the ancient Catholicke Church of Christ and from the truly coÌ„mended ancient Roman Church it selfe with whom we cannot growe in common vnlesse we had forsaken your fellowship And this kinde of seperation of our selues from you we know was more necessarie and is more coÌ„mendable then al the seperation of Heremites or any other of your caged birdes howsoeuer you could haue allowed that better then this of ours But you would seeme to haue bound vs to haue continued with you because that we receiued many of vs baptisme at your hands What I trust you are not so meane a diuine as to thinke it alwaies best for men to continue communion with them in all things that haue baptised them You know I am sure that the Arrian heretickes their heresie spreading it selfe so broad as it did and continuing diuers 100 yeares and other heretiques as well as they baptised many and yet I hope you wil not thinke that they might not after forsake their heresies to turne to the truth You know many did forsake them and came to the trueth yet it was counted an heresie to baptise them againe The better yet to shew that we should not haue departed from you you tel vs that you haue continued without adding and diminishing in that doctrine which was taught by the Apostles first and since from hand to hand in all integrity hath bene by the succession of faithful pastors conueighed downe vnto you and so we had both baptisme and all our other spirituall foode with you These are but wordes the euidence of the thing is to the contrary as I haue sufficiently made demonstration before Proue this indeed and we will repent vs of our departing from you most ioifully willingly wil wee ioyne with you againe I like very well your counsell that euery good Christian should fully resolue and determine to serue God and to liue and die in the Catholicke faith but then I adde that he had need well and throughlie to bee resolued what and which is that true Catholicke Faith For his direction in this behalfe how to discerne which is the right way to heauen and which not and consequentlie which is the true catholicke faith which is not you teach him that when there is any question put as touching life then the common way as Christ doeth say Mat. 7. doeth lead to perdition and the narrow to saluation but in religion it is contrary whereunto you saie Dauid alluded Psal 24. saying shew me thy waies O Lorde and teach me thy pathes by waies meaning religion and by pathes maners Where learned you this diuinity If you looke vpon Christs
as the Iewes had beene for not receiuing of our sauiour Christ e It was expresly prophecied that whē the Messias should come he should worke such works and therefore it was necessary that he should work them and herein he had priuilege and prerogatiue beyond all men the like is not prophecied that preachers of the gospel should do alwaies therfore this is required at our hands without all reason And yet therefore we haue not more priuiledge but lesse thē Christ if he had not done so manie miracles For we know no cause why you should be more priuiledged then Christ And seeing that you haue shewed nothing to verify it this waie and that the Scriptures make no mention of your vocation nor you shewe no miracles that your liues are at the least as ill as ours f Thus to threatē you we may boldly without shame because we are able to proue our doctrine by the scriptures to be the same that Christ taught and confirmed with his miracles what moues you to be so bolde and so vnshamefaced as to threaten vs with eternall damnation if we receiue not your hereticall doctrine the which is so full of discords and diuisions that one maie easilie gather by this from whence it came and whither it doeth leade one although yee haue nothing in your mouthes but the Gospell and the word of the Lorde And as g Whoso reads that tract of Augustine shall finde the Manichees to whom he speaketh farre like◠you then vs. S. Augustine saied vnto your semblables Sola personat apud vos veritatis pollicitatio h I would you would go on with Augustine and saie if that be found with you it is more worth then al the rest and that you would be contented to try that by the scriptures as he was and then you would sure so many of you as haue any grace quickly ioyne with vs. I saie no more at this time but that I beseech God to drawe you as neere to vs as you are farre from vs and to inspire your mindes to turne to the flocke of Christ the which both to your owne harme and ours you haue forsaken The XLII Chapter THere is no question of that but that euery one is to begin first to reforme himselfe and the Lord giue both vs and you grace effectually so to doe But if neither side should call vpon the other for reformation vntill the one side were growen wholy cleare of sinne you know well enough that then they must neuer doe it For what company and society of men euer was there but therein was some bad as well as good As Adam had an Abel so had he a Caine. There was an Ismael as well as an Isaac in Abrahams house And Isaac had an Esau as well as a Iacob Amongst the eight that were saued in the Arke there was a Cham. In the foure that left Sodom one that looked backe And amongst Christs 12. Apostles there was a Iudas Yea Christ hath taught vs by the parable of the good seede and tares Math. 13. that we are to expect no other in Gods owne field but that euen vnto the haruest there wil be a mixture alwaies of bad with good But you charge vs further that amongst vs there are many kinde of vsuries and interests and that though one way we care not for your images yet we loue them so well an other way that we haue robbed your churches of them Whereunto my answere is that we cānot deny but there are too many amongst vs who by such vnlawfull meanes seeke to enrich thēselues and that there are too too many profane and carnall men that haue our religiō in their mouthes who by their lewd conuersation dishonour the glorious gospell of Iesus Christ we are most hartely sory for it and dayly pray vnto God for amendmēt thereof But this we must tell you that we preach against al sinne impiety whatsoeuer and namely against vsury and al tumultuous and disorderly spoiling of churches of such thinges as you talke of And our Religion and the lawes in our common weale condemne and disalow such dealing therefore we are wronged that in these things we generally or our religiō at al should be charged Surely many of our vsurers extreame dealing men amongst vs are either men of no Religion or yours rather then ours neither doe I thinke where your Religion is in greatest credit that in those common weales vsury lieth dead and buried Sure I am your Popes haue beene for a long time the cunningest and vnreasonablest vsurers in the whole world in that they haue sold their palles their lead and other their hallowed ware which are indeede trifles and thinges of no valewe for such summes of money and gold as they haue You flatly slaunder vs in saying that there are some of vs that affirme we are wholy without spot or sinne For we both detest that opinion and count them that should holde so euen worthy to be detested for their so holding Yet you say if it were so that ought not to moue you to leaue your religion taught you by your forefathers What a sound ground of Religion forefathers without distinction is I haue shewed sufficiently already In which point I would alwaies haue the Christian to learne to distinguish betwixt the olde and ancient forefathers the Apostles and their successours in doctrine and life in the primitiue church and the later forefathers and neuer to thinke the latter worthy following any further then they haue followed the former and then the danger of this dart is auoided And that it is reason we should follow them no further we may learne in that Paul himselfe 1. Cor. 11. requireth no further to be followed then he followed Christ But you haue a further reason not to be moued from your Religion for our life were it neuer so Godly because Christ though he was without sin and confirmed his doctrine both by the anciēt scriptures and Iohn Baptists testimony yet he saied that if he had not done in their presence the workes and miracles that neuer mā did before him they had had no sinne Iohn 15.24 For hereof you gather that you may securely whatsoeuer we say vnto you or howsoeuer we liue refuse vs and our Religion and continue in your owne still as long as we proue not the lawfulnes of our vocation and the goodnes of our Religion by miracles For you know no cause you say why we should be more priuiledged then Christ This argument you vrged before cap. 30. and there I answered it Where I haue shewed you amōgst diuers other reasons that there was this especiall reasō that Christ should worke such miracles as he did to proue himselfe the Messias because expressely the Prophets had prophecied that he so should when he came which reason you cannot shew why now wee should work miracles For the Prophecies that were giuen forth by Paul 2. Thess 2.
to offer him againe to his father If by penance he vnderstand repentance we neither preach against it nor against any worthy fruit thereof For we most earnestly call for both but if by penance be vnderstood either voluntary or enioyned penance as they commonly take it ioyned with an opinion thereby either to satisfie for sinnes past or to merit at Gods hand because we know that such penance and all the fruits thereof are abhominable before God because thereby Christ is robbed of that honour of a ful and perfect sauiour in by himselfe alone that is due vnto him then we graunt as we haue iust cause we preach against it Otherwise fasting straightnes of life watching and lawfull vowes to make vs more ready feruent in holy prayer we commend and vrge Indeed praying to Saints because we haue neither example coÌ„mandement nor promise in Gods book to encourage vs thereunto but all to the contrary we condemne as grosse idolatry and likewise prayer for soules departed as they vse it to relieue foules in purgatory for the same reasons and sundry other we preach against But what we teach of these two points and what not and what reasons we haue for our so doing and how quite voide they be of all ground for theirs I refer thee to the 37 Chapter of my answere to Albine where I haue at large shewed these things And thus much therfore for this 3 signe The next is to bring a schisme into the Church coÌ„trary to Pauls exhortation 1. Cor 1. and that such a schisme as wherby not onely one member shall be seperated from an other but the whole mystical body from the true head Christ Iesus which we to haue done in seperating our selues from their Church not they hee assumeth and so concludeth when the learned protestant can shew the coÌ„trary that he wil recant and not before Still thus thou maiest see good reader that this man is no changling For vnles that be graÌ„ted him which is the maine point betwixt vs that their Church is the true Church of Christ their doctrine the sound catholicke faith and religion he hath no ground or foundation for any thing he saieth For he cannot be so ignorant as to imagine that euery one straight is authour of such a schisme as he here speaketh of that by doctrine draweth others from euery society or company inuesting themselues with the name of the Church and bragging that they haue the trueth For what would he then make of Christ and his Apostles who in their time drew so many after them from holding any longer coÌ„mâ—â—tion with the Synagogue of the Iewes that then I am sure bragged as confidently of both these as this man and his fellowes doe now Or what would he say to those ancieÌ„t catholicks after Liberius time that when Arrianisme had in great part ouer run the world and the Arrians for many yeeres togither bragged theÌ„selues to be the onely 〈◊〉 catholicks disgracing theÌ„ that were so indeed with the name of Omousians that yet though they had got both bishops and emperours so many and so fast of their opinion that they had in ten seuerall councels goe sentence of their side ceased not labouring and traueling vntill they had drawen men againe to breake from them and to ioine with the poore persecuted contempt the number that then yet persecuted in the trueth I am sure they 〈◊〉 not for shame for all this count either Christ and his Apostles or these ancient catholicks antichristian heretickes or schismatiques And our drawing of meÌ„ by our doctrine now in these later daies from them is nothing else in trueth but an imitating as nigh as we can these renoumed and vndoubted good presidents examples that so the kingdome of Antichrist according to Saint Pauls prophesie might fal into consumption 2. Thessalonians 2 and that great Babylon might yet at leÌ„gth as it was reuealed vnto Ioh. Reuelations cap. 14. fall and come downe For not onely we saw that the Church of Rome had made a schisme but such an apostasie euen in the fundamentall points of Christian religion from Christ and his Church that there was no remedy but that we must breake of from her as we did or else we could neuer haue communioÌ„ indeed in Christ with his true Church Though therefore we know and at the first knew that peace vnity and concord were pretious things and by al lawfull meanes to be laboured for yet knowing withall as we doe did that it is vnity in verity and not in errour impiety with Christ not with Antichrist that is so much to be set by blame vs not for chusing rather according to these good exaÌ„ples to haue war with men then with God discord with Antichrist and al hes bread then with Christ and his members We grauÌ„t them therfore that to bring into the Church such a schisme as shal make diuision not onely amoÌ„gst Christs meÌ„bers but also of the body from the head is indeed an vndoubted signe of antichristian heretickes but wheras he taketh this for grauÌ„ted that this we haue done in departing froÌ„ theÌ„ as we haue that we deny For we teach men to hold hold our selues that faith religion as we are alwaies ready to proue by the canonical scriptures of the old and new testament that alwaies the true Church of Christ hath held and therfore which when hardly both holdeth the liuely members amongst themselues is vnity and also knitteth theÌ„ and their head Christ so fast together as that no popish or antichristian tiranny shall euer be able to seuer them And howesoeuer this proude challengeâ— thought wtâ—â— impossible thing for the learned protestant to proue that they haue brought into the Church such a schisme as hee speaketh of I the vnlearnedst often thousande doubt not that I am very well able to doe it For this is most certaine and cleare Iesus Christ the Sauiour of the worlde indeede is at this point beeing euery waie so able and willing as he did in his owne person and by himselfe alone to go through with the office of a most perfect Sauiour of mankinde that either so hee must bee beleeued in and trusted vnto for that matter or else hee taketh himselfe antichristianlie robbed of that 〈◊〉 and glory that is due vnto him and therefore wil be no part of a sauiour at all to such That this is most true appeareth because it is writed that God is so iealouse of his owne honour and glory that hee wil not abide that any should therein bee pertaker with him or rob him of any ioâ—t therof Esay 42. that in him all thinges are already prepared Matthew the twenty two that his name is the onely name whereby commeth saluation Actes 4. that hee is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Reu. 1. that he is the authour finisher of our faith Heb. 12. that by one offering he hath consecrated for
defy detest theÌ„ their frantick opinions as much as any and of all men we haue beene the forwardest in writing against them And therefore they doe vs the more wrong when at any time they aggrauate this obiection against vs by charging vs to haue such amongst vs whom thus we shunne and mislike aswell as they Thus much therfore let suffice for answere to this fourth signe and now let vs proceede to the next The next is not to obey but resist the Prelates of the Church which hee would proue so to bee by Pauls saying 2. Tim. 3. like as Iannes and â—ambres resisted Moses so doe these resist the trueth being men of corrupt mindes reprobates in faith of which fault when the learned protestant can proue them guilty and vs cleare he promiseth to recant It seemeth the man in alleadging this text did trust his memory too much for twise he hath writen MaÌ„bres for IaÌ„bres but if that were all his fault here it were a small matter But here againe according to his old woont he must haue it freely giueÌ„ and granted him for he bringeth nothing at all to proue it that their Bishops and Prelates are all such as Moses Paul was that is faithfull in teaching only Gods people the truth For vnles this be yeelded him it neither may be granted him that he rightly applieth his text nor this signe against vs. But he knoweth well enough and so doe all the packe of theÌ„ that we are so far from being so prodigall in our gifts vnto them that we hold their prelates bishops Priests to be very IaÌ„nes Iambres in resisting our Bishops and ministers in teaching the same truth that they haue learned of Moses Paul and that therefore we thinke no better of them then of men of corrupt mindes reprobate in the faith For which cause we are sure we both may and ought to disobey them and resist them as we doe For so we finde that Esay Hieremy Amos Michaiah Christ and his Apostles in their times refused to obey and resisted the false doctrine of the false Prophets and high Priests that theÌ„ were What a vanity is it therefore in this man to trouble his reader with such colde and poore stuffe as this is And truely hee hath no better happe in the last then in any of the former For setting it downe that ficklenesse and slipperinesse of errours and heresies is a signe and sure token to bewray the authors thereof and that the catholique faith or trueth is likewise to be knowen by the constant stability thereof he saieth that which we grant to be very true as willingly as he or any of his side Insomuch that coÌ„monly it is one of the principall reasons that we vse to proue their opinions that we striue against them for to be errours or heresies theÌ„selues for now holding them so obstinatly as they doe heretiques for that we are able to shew how by stealing and soft paces stily they began first to creepe in and so went on froÌ„ worse to worse vntill to vse his owne tearme they came ad prosuÌ„dum maloruÌ„ that is euen to the depth of all euill that they are now growen vnto therein Who so readeth my answere to Albines publishers preface and the 37. Chapter of my answere to Albine himselfe shall finde that in a good sort of their opinions I haue shewed this But to proue this that it is the property of heretiques to be fickle and mouing and so soone to perish passe away he alleadgeth S. Peter saying that lying masters doe bring vpoÌ„ theÌ„selues swift daÌ„nation their destruction sleepeth not which he spake of gods iudgements yâ— vndoubtedly should ouertake such meÌ„ not as he vnderstandeth him to shew that their opinions alwaies should soone passe away and vanish In the former sence it is alwaies fouÌ„d true that S. Peter writeth either here or els where or both but take it in the later sence then Peter shall often be found to haue prophecied of such vntruly For who knoweth not that the grosse errours of Turcism are of very long continuance that the errour of the Aethiopians for circumcision is far more ancients and that yet it continueth And must not of necessity the errours and heresies of Antichrist be of very long continuance seeing Paul as we haue heard confesseth that the mystery of that iniquity beganne to worken in his time aboue 1500. years ago and that it should not quite be abolished before Christs second comming who then should yet by the brightnesse of his comming abolish it 2. Thess 2 The trueth of whose prophecy in that place is the very true ground of the antiquity vniuersality and continuance of the popish and Antichristian Religion So that howsoeuer it hath fallen out in some heresies that they haue in Gods most wise prouidence euen quickely brought themselues to an ende by their ficklenes moouing yet it appeareth in that place the sinne of not beleeuing the trueth so notably taught and confirmed by Christ and his Apostles in the iust iudgement of God by Antichristianity is so seuerely to be punished that therewith euen from the Apostles daies to the ende of the worlde they that commit that sinne shall bee in danger to bee deluded and seduced most dangerously Which I say and sure I am I can proue it hath beene and yet is most notoriously verifyed by popery to the wonderfull hurt and destruction of soules Howbeit this man would faine apply this signe vnto vs for that amongst vs as it pleaseth him to write here in England for the loue we beare to the doctrine of the Zwinglians Oecolampadians and Caluinists the Lutherans haue takeÌ„ their iust ouerthrow and for that now here Precisians and Puritans as he saith through the affection of the common people and so winking at them by some magestrates haue brought the Zwinglians and Caluinists to be ready to yeeld vp the ghost and to tilt vp their heeles But these are but vaine words and proue not his purpose For all these howsoeuer in other matters of lesser moment they too much disagree yet as I haue saied before and as it is notoriously knowen for the principall articles of religion coÌ„cerning faith or maners they are in constant vnity holding the same all of them that they haue learned in these points out of the Canonical scriptures as the harmony of their confessions extant to the world in print make it euident As for the seuerall and priuate opinions of Luther and his too earnest followers which we now mislike we haue likewise alwaies misliked and therefore in that respect they haue no other ouerthrow amongst vs then they alwaies since we first heard of them haue had and howsoeuer in these points we rather prefer Zuinglius and Caluins iudgement then theirs yet certaine it is that we build not our faith of them nor of them or by them delight we to be called we protest and professe our selues