to Scripture I desire you to take into consideration that the same Roman Church at the same time both proposed the Belief of those Doctrins to your first Reformers and also gave them the Scriptures testifying that they were the infallible Word of God Therefore certainly it was far from being evident to her that her Doctrines did evidently contradict Divine Revelation Now you will not surely deny but that in the Catholic Church there are men as learned and those in a far greater number than among Protestants Men I say who also make the Scriptures their principal study and have published almost innumerable Commentaries on them again Men of whom a great number live sequestred from the world in an assiduous Practice of Spiritual Prayer and therefore not likely to have their judgments perverted by worldly interests Yet not any one of these does see or but suspect that the Faith they profess is contradicted by Gods Word on the contrary they invincibly demonstrate that the Church has been as the only Depository of Scripture so likewise of the true Sence of it How comes then that to be evident to you which is invisible to them Which way went the Spirit of God from the whole Church to inhabite a debauched incestuous Fryer or a stigmatized Pichard upon whose credit doubtless you have taken up your Evidence If they could have shewed you in Scripture such passages as these The Pope is not the Supream Bishop and Visible Head of the Church Bread by Sanctification does not become the Body of Christ We ought not to confess our sins to Priests Purgatory is a meer humane invention It is an injury to Christ to desire Saints but none to desire Sinners to pray for us c. Such sayings indeed as these might have justifyed your charge against the Church that she contradicts Scripture But where are such sayings to be found except it be in the Heretical Writings of your Reformers On the contrary some Points contradictory to those are found litterally contained in Scripture and to elude them you are foced to have recourse to figurative sences and the rest are conveyed to us by the same Authority by which we receive the Scripture it self Yea by the Holy Fathers justified as consonant to Scripture and however I suppose you will not say that silence is equivolent to express contradiction The utmost that you can say is that perhaps you can produce now and then some scattered Texts of Scripture from which you can make a shew of arguing against some Tenets of the Catholic Church But what will that avail you since Probability as hath been said will not excuse you for omitting a necessary duty of Obedience and incurring the horible guilt of Schism Where now do you see an evidence that the Church contradicts Scripture Prot. I shall be better enabled to give a resolution in this Point when according to your promise you shall have given me an account of the necessary Doctrines of your Church in the points controverted between us §. 60. Cath. That Promise I will now with Gods assistance discharge through all the Points mentioned by you in the beginning And first as touching the two first Points viz. 1. The Churches Authority 2. The Popes Universal Iurisdiction c. enough hath been said in our former discourse Yet for your further satisfaction I will enlarge my self a little more Take therefore into your consideration that it is a Fundamental Truth agreed on by all Catholics That the only Objects of Catholic Faith are such Divine Truths as are revealed in Gods Word and also proposed to all by the Catholic Church to be believed by Divine Faith Now this general Ground being presupposed in case any Controversies should arise touching the sence of any Divine Truths revealed it is unquestionably necessary that some Means should be appointed by God to determine such controversies and to prevent a dissipation of his Church by Heresies and Schisms And what other Mean can be imagined efficacious hereto then what hath been taught and practised even from the Apostles time and this declared by the Council of Trent That no man trusting to his own prudence or skill shall presume to interpret Holy Scripture in matters of Faith or Manners pertaining to edification of Christian Doctrine wresting it to his own sences against that sence which our Holy Mother the Church doth or hath held to whom it belongs to judg of the true sence and interpretation of Holy Scriptures or also against the unanimous consent of the Fathers This is that which the Roman Catholic Church teaches concerning her Authority of interpreting controverted Texts of Scripture No more then this is any Catholic obliged to believe Now I leave it to your conscience whether you can think it a sufficient Ground for you to break from her Communion upon this quarrel because she judges more fit that the judgment of the whole Body of Teachers and Governors appointed by God in her should prevail against your single judgment or that of a few Apostat-Ministers Especially considering the Promises made by our Lord to his Apostles and their lawful Successors that his Spirit should remain with them and direct them into all Truth till the end of the world so as that the gates of Hell that is say the Fathers Heresies should never prevail against them Prot. I see it is in vain to contradict this §. 61. Cath. Let us next proceed to what the Church has determined touching the Priviledges and Authority of the Prime Pastor the Bishop of Rome Thus then we read in the Confession of Faith collected by the Pope himself out of the Council of Trent I acknowledg the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Roman Church to be the Mother and Mistress of all Churches and I promise true Obedience to the Bishops of Rome Successor of St. Peter Prince of the Apostles and Vicar of Iesus Christ. Here the See Apostolic being acknowledged the Mother and Mistress of all Churches and the Pope Vicar of Christ his universal Iurisdiction is therein acknowledged which Jurisdiction or Authority we are not to suppose to be arbitrary and unlimitted but as we read in a Canon of the Council of Florence consented to by the Emperor Patriark and other Bishops of Greece to be exercised 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. after the manner as is also contained in the Gests of Oecumenical Councils and Sacred Canons And such a Primacy invested with Authority as this the General Council of Chalcedon admitted by Protestants does acknowledg in him which is also attested by Tradition and practice from the beginning §. 62. Now the necessity of such a standing Authority in Gods Church is thus grounded The absolutely Supream Ecclesiastical Authority against which can lye no Appeal is confessedly residing in a lawful General Council by which all Debates whatsoever may be determined all necessary Laws enacted c. But it being a matter of infinite difficulty especially since the division of
a Protestant §. 2. Prot. Perhaps we do not agree in the sence of this Article Cath. It may well be so therefore for a tryal give me leave to propose a few Questions to you Prot. Ask what you please Cath. First then when you say you believe the holy Catholic Church do you not believe this Church to be one Body as St. Paul expresly teaches saying There is one Body one Spirit as there is one Hope of our calling one Lord one Faith one Baptism one God and Father of all c. Ephes. 4. 4. 5. 6. and as we profess in the following Creeds of the Church Prot. Yes I believe the true Catholic Church of Christ to be one Body §. 3. And do you not further believe that this Church of Christ shall continue one Body till the end of the world Prot. Yes doubtless for otherwise the time might come in which this Article of our Faith should be false and also Christ's promise That the Gates of Hell should never prevail against his Church should fail §. 4. Cath. In professing such a Belief of this Article do you not also intend thereby to acknowledg your self a Member of this one Catholic Church Prot. Yes without doubt Cath. You cannot surely think it a matter indifferent whether you be a Member of this one Church or not Prot. No by no means On the contrary I acknowledg that whosoever is separated from this one Church of Christ and dies in that separation cannot be saved §. 5. Cath. Thus far then we both agree Let us further if you please consider what a Church in general is I mean a Christian Church Prot. I conceive it to be a Society of Men and Women publicly professing that Religion which they believe to have been taught by Christ. §. 6. Cath. But every Society thus professing is it thereby the same Church which we are taught to believe in the Creed Prot. It is at least a part of that Church Cath. Are then Societies of Heretics and Schismatics part of that one Church since they also profess the Religion which they believe to have been taught by Christ Prot. No For they cut themselves off from this one Church either by inventing New and false Doctrines which renders them Heretics that is Chusers of a new Faith Or by disobeying the Lawful Commands of this one Church which renders them Schismatics that is Rebels §. 7. Cath. Can any Society be called one Body or Corporation unless it be united by common received Laws and Governors Prot. I now begin to perceive whither you would lead me Therefore I must advise well lest I engage my self too far by an hasty answer to this Question Cath. Sir it is not Victory but truth we now regard Therefore speak not of being engaged but freely recal any Answer you have or shall give if you find cause And as for the present Question consider well what that is which makes a Society as a Kingdom a Province an Army a City a Corporation to become one Body Is it not an Obligation imposed on those who live respectively in any of these to be subject to the peculiar Government and Laws there established This appears plainly in that wheresoever any one obstinately refuses such submission he is esteemed and treated as a Rebel a Fugitive an outlawed person and utterly deprived of all Priviledges and emoluments belonging to the said Body Prot. This cannot be denyed Cath. Apply this then to God's Church St. Paul says expresly it is one Body your Creed obliges you to call it One The Scripture compares it to a City at Unity in it self and to a well ordered Army with Banners under which all Soldiers are reduced in their ranks expecting the Generals command signifyed by subordinate officers Such a society is Gods Church It is the Kingdom of Christ which if once divided cannot stand But by his promise it and no other Kingdom besides it shall stand for ever and therefore it shall never be Divided but all its members shall continue in their order Now what makes such Order but obedience to Government and Laws Can you Imagine any other excluding this Prot. I must confess I cannot For it is plain that where every one will be a Law to himself there can be no Order nor Unity nothing but confusion and endless Divisions Cath. Hence it follows then that the Church must necessarily consist of Teachers and Disciples of Governors and Subjects Prot. That is granted Cath. And consequently that it is a Visible Society Prot. True for otherwise none will be able to know whom or what to obey No Society can be invisible to the members of it and it is not a Society if the Governors or Teachers in it be invisible and the Laws unknown §. 8. Cath. By whom have these Teachers and Governors been appointed in the Church Prot. St. Paul informs us Epes 4. 11. 12. 13. saying Christ gave some Apostles and some Prophets and some Evangelists and some Pastors and Teachers for the perfecting of the Saints for the work of the Ministery for the edifying of the Body of Christ Till we all come in the unity of the Faith and of the knowledg of the Son of God unto a perfect man c. So also we read in the Epistle to the Hebrews No man taketh this honour to himself but he that is called of God as was Aaron Heb. 5. 4. §. 9. Cath. This being so are not they who are Disciples in Gods Church obliged in conscience to believe their Teachers and Subjects to obey their Governors Prot. Yes without doubt But yet with this condition that these Teachers teach truth and these Governors command lawful things Cath. But is every Subject to be a Iudg whether the Doctrine taught him be true and the thing commanded lawful Prot. The Scripture is to be Judg between them Cath. Indeed that which you say would be to some purpose if the Scripture could speak and answer the Readers Questions and Doubts as we two can do to one another But the Scripture being only a Writing and by consequence incapable of interpreting its own meaning whensoever any doubt of its true sence arises if it may be permitted to every Christian to judg of his Teachers Doctrines by examining them by Scripture the Church may as well be without Teachers §. 10. Prot. I know no remedy For since it is evident to us that there is on Earth no visible infallible Guide and Interpreter of Scripture we cannot rely upon any Man or any Society of Men so as to remain secure that they will not mislead us either out of ignorance or secular interests Therefore we must leave to all Christians a judgment of diseretion to discern by the Light of Gods word whether their Teachers guide them in the way of Truth or not Every one must take the best course he can not to fall into any dangerous Error And since Eternity depends upon it it is not likely that men will
contrary sense and only self-love and selfe-esteem determine both the one and the other Can it then be prudence in any man to hazard Eternity upon his own sence of Scripture the half of which perhaps he never read Commonly a Text or two concludes every point controverted when perhaps there are twenty Texts unconsidered by the Person which would rectify the sence he gave to the former Is that Guide to be trusted which has seduced such infinite Multitudes opposing calumniating and hating one another All Mankind may be witness that this Private Light hath hitherto never been able to confute or undecieve one Sect. In a word is it not in effect an injurious blaspheming of the Goodness Wisdom and Omnipotence of God to affirm that he has obliged under penalty of damnation all Christians to unity of Faith in all necessary Doctrines and also that he hath promised to conserve his Church in this Unity to the end of the world and on the other side to affirm withal that the only Means appointed by him to produce this Unity should be a certain Means of destroying Unity and which if made use of by all Christians the gates of Hell would be too strong for him so that there would scarce be left a Church upon earth §. 16. Truly Sir I do not know through what Spectacles you look upon this principle of Protestancy which hath been indeed the constant Principle of all Ancient-Herities But to me it appears most horribly gastly and only fit to be acknowledged the invention of Lucifer the foul Spirit of Pride and contention who presents to unwary Christians once more this fruit of the Tree of the knowledg of good and evil to be aspired to by our own endeavors and contrary to Gods appointment Since therefore as hath been said there are but those two ways to arrive at the knowleg of Divine Mysteries contained in Scripture yet so contained as that the Texts in which they are contained are subject to be miss-understood viz. First A man 's own private Reason And Secondly Authority of Superiors by Gods appointment placed in his Church All the Reason I have enforces me to chuse this latter way because thereby I shall avoid inconstancy otherwise unavoidable as I am taught by St. Paul who sayes Eph. 4. 11 12 c. That therefore God placed in his Church Apostles Prophets Evangelists Pastors and Teachers for the edification of the Body of Christ a Succession of which is to last till we all meet in the Unity of Faith c. This Almighty God did says he To the end we should not be like children wavering and carried about with every wind of Doctrine through the wickedness of men and cunning of such as would circumvent us with errour the only remedy whereof in the Apostles judgment is submission to Authority To which submission also I am obliged by an express command of God Obedite praepositis vestris c. Heb. 13. 17. Obey them that are set over you and submit your selves for they watch for your souls as they that must give account And Reason thus divinely enlightned obliging me to submit to Authority I should renounce the same Reason utterly if I should not prefer that Society which by an evident Succession from the foresaid Apostles and Pastors makes the best claim thereto yea which alone claims an Authority obliging the Conscience and that is the Catholics Church the Authority whereof is evidently the greatest in the world For though all divided Sects preume to contend with her for Truth of Doctrines challenging that to themselves yet there is not any one of them which dares assume to themselves that eminence of Authority which manifestly appears in her And you may know this Catholio Church from others because it only challengeth an universal and absolute not conditional Obedience and you may know the Sons of it by their professing to give to the Churches Authority such Obedience §. 17. Now Sir consider how agreeable to Gods goodness and wisdom how suitable to humane capacities how helpful to mens necessities is this way of grounding our Faith on Gods Word as interpreted by the Catholic Church The far greatest part of Christians are too weak to maintain Disputes yet God loves the Poor and Ignorant at least as well as he does the Rich and Learned and takes care to bring them to Happiness without Learning sharpness of wit curiosity and study of knowledg Consequently he has chalked out a way to Heaven in which the Ignorant and Simple may walk securely And in what other way can these walk but in that of obedience to Authority This doubtless is that way foretold by the Prophet Isa. 35. 8. saying in Christs Kingdom There shall be a high way and it shall be called a holy way No polluted person shall pass through it This shall be to Christians a streight way so that Fools shall not err in it Now have Sectaries found out this streight way in which Fools cannot err Sectaries I say who have framed a confused Labyrinth in which there are a thousand cross paths and windings where every one wanders as it were with a dark Lanthorn in his hand and either stumbles into or phantastically chuses such a path as at the present pleases him best and leaves it also when he thinks good not taking direction from any other or not much caring for such directions By this means we see how that not only Fools and Ignorant but even the most Judicious amongst Sectaries following their own light do walk all their lives in quite contrary ways yet all believing that God by the Scripture directs them §. 18. Manifest therefore it is that Gods way being only one holy streight High-way not any Sectaries but all and only Catholics have been by Almighty God brought into it In as much as they distrusting the dim Light of their own Reason for discerning the Verities of Faith contested borrow the Churches Light thus exercising Christian Humility in not presuming upon their own Abilities and Christian Obedience in submitting to the Guidance of those Teachers and Governors whom God hath placed over them and who are to give an account of their souls These Heavenly Virtues are and have always been equally practised by both Ignorant Catholics out of necessity and by the most Learned out of Duty Yea those glorious Lights of Gods Church the holy Fathers and ancient Doctors though they were Fathers and Doctors to others yet to the Church herself they were humble Children and Disciples learning only from her and teaching others only what they had learnt from her This surely is a streight High-way and a Holy way too and whil'st the most Simple among Catholicks walk in this way they have an incomparable advantage in light above the most Learned of those which trust to their private light For they are guided by all the lights that is by the whole Body of those which God hath constituted Teachers in his Church in all ages and
to be Holy when it teaches Truth and Holiness So is the Universal Church Holy and so is every Member in its Communion Since that which makes it a Member in its Communion is its agreement with the whole in Doctrines taught by it both regarding Faith and Manners And from hence it follows that to ascribe Error and Corruption to any Church which is acknowledged a Member of the Catholic Church and for such pretended Errors to break off Communion with it is to do the same to the Universal Church and consequently to contradict an Article of Faith Now that this is the condition of the English-Church is manifest For since all Christians are under pain of damnation obliged to live in Communion with the Universal Church by being obedient to it's Laws and Governors as also to believe that this Universal Church is at this day extant where can an English Protestant hope to find this Church if not in the Roman Communion In the Greek-Church he will find the same Doctrine which in the Roman he calls dangerous Errours as besides the confession hereof by several Protestant Authors formerly hath been of late beyond all gainsaying evidenced by the indefatigable industry of Monsieur Arnaud in his two late Replies to Claude a Calvinist Minister from the Authentick Testimonials and Declarations both of several late Synods and of many Ecclesiastical Persons of eminency both in the present Greek and other Eastern Churches And besides these he will find other Doctrins which we all condemn as Heresies Then for pretended Corruptions in practice the same practices which he stiles Superstitious and Idolatrous principally touching the Blessed Sacrament he will find in the Greek Church far more distastful to him And as for other Eastern Sects besides the same Practises he will find himself obliged if in Communion with any of them to assent to Ancient Universally condemned Heresies Nestorianism Eutychianism Monothelitism c. §. 26. Prot. But no doubt God hath his Elect Servants among them all who are truly Orthodox as we are with whom we may be said to be united in Spirit Cath. Truly Sir this is a meer pittiful dream to talk of Communion in spirit with hidden Christians to you invisible as you are also to them This renders all the Discourses of the Holy Fathers touching the Churches Visibility and Unity utterly impertinent Yea this evacuates the Predictions of all Gods ancient Prophets foretelling the Extent Glory and Victories of the Kingdom of the Messias and it makes void the Promises of our Saviour touching his Church What meaning therefore can you frame to your self when you say You acknowledg a perpetually existent Catholic Church and a necessity imposed on all Christians to live in her Communion §. 27. Pr. We acknowledg our selves in Communion with all Christian Societies as far as they teach Truth and practise according to Christs Law Cath. So you may be said to communicate with Iews Turks and Insidels for some Truths are taught by all these and some of their practises are lawful But is this such a Communion as the Church Catholic anciently or as the First four General Councils required It is manifest that at the time of your first Separation there was not one Society of Christians in the world to whose Profession of Faith you would subscribe in whose Religious Worship you would joyn and by whose Laws you would be governed So that all Christians then living and visible in the World were to you as Heathens and Publicans and you the very same to them Were your first Reformers in Communion with them Certainly you will not say that the Roman Grecian and Oriental Churches though they will not deny but you teach some Truths and sometimes practise virtues do live in your Communion that is That Persons mutually excommunicating one another do at the same time live in one Communion or that Pastors live in Communion with those who renounce Obedience to them and abhorr the Faith taught by them §. 28. P. Why Sir would you have us allow such a way of Communion as you seem to understand to Societies which we firmly believe do teach damnable Errours and enjoyn Idolatrous or Superstitious Practises Cath. No Sir by no means But since there is on earth a visibly holy Catholic Church placed as a City upon a Hill with which you must under pain of damnation communicate in such a manner as Christians did in the time of the first four General Councils I adjure you not to rest where you now are in Schism from all visible Churches preceding your Separation but to find Her out and having found her out to depose an overweening conceit of your own abilities to censure and condemn her Doctrines and with Christian Humility to submit your self entirely to her Guidance by which means you will be sure to find rest of mind §. 29. Prot. This seems to me a task too hard to be undertaken Cath. That which makes it seem so hard to you is perhaps a secret whisper of Nature and self-love telling you that this may expose you to many worldly disadvantages or if not this a strong prejudice by education deeply imprinted in your mind against the Roman Church the condemning and reviling of which is the subject of most Books you read and of most of the discourses and Sermons you hear I name the Roman Church because I am perswaded that if you should happen to entertain any Doubts of the security of the Grounds of Protestant Religion it would not be the Grecian nor any of the other Oriental Churches whose Religion you would put in the scales against it but only the Roman from whence you had your Christianity your Church her subsistence and within the Limits and Iurisdiction of whose Patriarch you live Do I not judg aright Prot. Yes §. 30. Cath. Then Sir though at present you should have no doubts of any Doctrines taught by your Church or rather in it for your self will not allow her the Title of an authentic Teacher neither does she challenge it yet since you have voluntarily fixed your self in such a Church which not pretending to an infallible direction from God cannot with any shew of reason tell you that you are bound in conscience to believe any one of her Doctrines nor that it is a sin for you to leave her Communion and to chuse that of any other Society which you may like better for then all Christians should as well as you be obliged to joyn themselves to the English Church only Endeavour I beseech you with a mind as disinteressed as may be to hearken to what may be alledged for the Right which the Roman Church has to challeng your Obedience so as that the refusal of such Obedience would be an heinous Sin For this Right indeed She challenges and She alone No other ancient Church hath and no par ticular Sect doth or can pretend to it Prot. I am content §. 31. Cath. First then consider that
abilities or blind passion against all Guides establish'd in Gods Church if Divine Revelation consent of Antiquity manifest Reason and even experience by outward Sensation may be fit to guide me I must not be a Protestant I must of necessity be a Roman Catholic For Divine Revelation interpreted also by consent of Fathers and Councils informs me that Christ hath established on Earth a visible Church which is one holy and Catholic the common Mother and only authentick Teacher of all Christians that this Church shall remain such to the end of the World and that whosoever is not a true faithful Member of this Church is thereby cut off from the Mystical Body of Christ and shall be eternally separated from Him Again evident Reason shews that no Person or Society can be esteemed a Member of any Church any other way than by believing its Doctrines and being subject to its Laws and Government In the third place the testimony of our Senses assures us that not any of our Modern Sects do assent to the Doctrines or are governed by the Laws of any Church at all and consequently not of the Catholic Church which had a being at their first pretended Reformation therefore upon these grounds it evidently follows that all the said Sects are manifestly guilty of Schism Moreover since the Roman is that Church of which the first Reformers once were Members and by reforming made a separation from it and since the same Church does constantly profess the same Doctrines which were once held by the Universal Body of Orthodox Christians and again since there is not any visible Church upon earth to which all marks of the true Church assigned in Scripture and by the Holy Fathers can be so applied and whereto the Antient Prophecies and the Promises of Christ have been so perfectly accomplished as the Roman it will evidently follow that the present Roman Catholic Church ought to be acknowledged that one Holy Catholic Church which we confess in the Apostles Creed and by consequence whatsoever Doctrines in opposition to the Faith professed in this Church are taught by Protestants they are thereby without any particular discussion legitimately prejudged to be formal Heresies Now Heresie and Schism being by all even by Hereticks and Schismaticks themselves acknowledged most dreadfully wasting Crimes of which I cannot possibly be guilty whilst I adhere to the Roman Catholic Church nor avoid the guilt of them by forsaking its Communion I conceive I have without any necessity of engaging in particular Disputes given you rational Grounds enabling me to afford a sufficient Answer to the Question first proposed by you viz. Why are you a Catholic §. 40. And for a conclusion Sir give me leave to tell you that it will be utterly in vain for you to atempt the avoiding of the stigmata brands of Heresie and Schism by entring into an endless Dispute about particular Controversies to be stated out of Books For till you be able to shew a present Visible Orthodox Church the Governors and Teachers whereof are derived by a continual Succession from the Apostles which Church in all those Points for which you have separated from the Roman teaches as you do and either governs you or is governed by you Till this I say be done your busying your self about particular Disputes will never produce to you Peace of mind but rather encrease in you Pride and Malice against others Your first most necessary Care therefore must be to establish your self in such a Church as can oblige you to believe her for by no other way can you nor your Teachers avoid Self-condemnation as manifest Innovators There are certain illustrious marks assigned by the holy Scriptures and Fathers to distinguish the true Catholic Church from Congregations of Hereticks and Schismaticks such are Unity Succession Universality Converting of Nations Miracles c. And these are such marks as are perceptible by the meanest capacities to the end that none should be excused if they mistake the Church Now not one of these so visible marks belongs to you and not one but belongs to the Roman Catholic Church §. 41. When you are urged to shew some signs or marks which might invite any to joyn with you all you can say is That you teach truth and that you duly administer the Sacraments that is you would prove your selves to be a true Church because you say you are a true Church for not the marks but the essence of a Church consists in teaching Truth c. But marks of his Church easily observable by all men were appointed by God to lead the Simple as well as the Learned to discover that Church which only teacheth Truth and duly administers his Sacraments Not any such marks do you pretend to shew And as for this your miscalled single Mark the Unlearned cannot possibly judg whether you do indeed teach Truth c. and the Learned must have spent their whole lives before they can be in a capacity to judg And though they should be so unhappy as to suffer themselves to be convinced that you do teach Truth c. yet till you can further demonstrate that you are not guilty of Schism but that you communicate with that one holy Catholic Church which you believe in the Creed it would notwithstanding all the truth pretended to be taught by you be a damnable sin in them to communicate with you These things considered since I am confident it is impossible for you to clear this point I believe you will find an insuperable difficulty to prepare according to the method observed here a tolerable general answer sufficient to vindicate your Church in case I should by way of exchange propose to you this Question Why are you a Protestant Prot. Judg not Sir too hastily Perhaps at our next meeting you will hear more than you now expect In the mean time I thank you for your Charity And God willing I will seriously reflect on what hath been said Cath. Farewel Sir and if you think good cast your eyes upon this little bundel of Citations out of several ancient Holy Fathers of the Church who will tell you that upon the very same grounds which have been here discoursed on they were good Christians and Catholics Prot. If they tell me so I shall not easily contemn what they tell me Farewel ✚ ¶ TESTIMONIES of HOLY FATHERS regarding The Substance of the foregoing DISCOURSE §. 1. Of the Churches prepetual Existence Visibility c. OBscurius dixerunt Prophetaeâ—de Christo quam de Ecclesia Puto propterea The Prophets have spoken more obscurely concerning Christ than concerning the Church The reason hereof I conceive to be because they foresaw in Spirit that men would make divisions and parties and that they would not much dispute about Christ himself but that they would raise great contentions about the Church Therefore that was more plainly foretold and more openly prophecyed concerning which greater contentions would in succeeding times
the Roman Empire to bring together so vast an Assembly from all Regions and yet Unity essential to the Church being always to be preserved which cannot be done without a supereminent Goverment always existent hence it is come to pass that the supream Bishop and Successor of the Prince of the Apostles has even from the beginning been acknowledged this supereminent Governor through all the whole Church to take care that the common established Laws former Definitions and Decisions of the Church be every where observed and professed to prevent any innovations in Doctrine and also to end Controversies among Catholics if any arise at least by silencing contentious Disputes till a General Council may further consider them by which all Schisms are prevented and also Heresies that is any Doctrines that are declared by this supream Pastor contrary to former Church-definitions perpetually crushed and lastly to judg in causis majoribus when quarrels arise among Patriarks Metropolitans c. Thus stands the case and now I appeal to your own Conscience whether you can imagine any other Expedient for preserving a general Peace and Unity in Gods Church And whether if you were appointed and also enabled to frame such a Church as was necessarily to continue always One Body Reason it self would not dictate the same Order to you Experience shews that all Divisions both in the West and East are to be ascribed to mens renouncing Obedience to this Common Governor §. 63. Prot. Truly Sir I cannot but acknowledg that to preserve Order and Peace in so vast a Body as the Church is there must of necessity be a Government and if Government then Subordination and consequently an established Supream Governor And now methinks reflecting upon Ecclesiastical History I see clearly that such an orderly Government was settled in the Church by the Apostles themselves For if as some among us pretend the same Apostles had intended no Supereminence of Bishops above Presbyters and no degrees of authority among Bishops it could not possibly have happened that a few unarmed Bishops not assisted by Secular Power should so immediately after the Apostles have subdued such a world of Presbiters formerly supposed their equals to their Iurisdiction and no marks be left in any antient Writers to shew that those Presbyters resisted or so much as complained against such an usurpation and tyranny And the like may be said touching the Subordination of simple Bishops to Metropolitans Primate Patriarks and of all these to the Supream Pastor Though probably those Titles came into the Church in posteriour ages Therefore upon due consideration I cannot deny but my aversion to such and so qualified an Authority of the Bishop of Rome as you say is moderated by the Churches Decision is very much abated Cath. Since therefore you now see a way how to avoid danger from this to you formerly Rock of offence I may I suppose proceed to the following Points of Controversie touching the Holy Eucharist c. §. 64. 3. Of the Popes Temporal Authority and Iurisdiction Prot. No Sir You go too fast For though I am perswaded that our first Reformers with all their Rhetoric should not have drawn me with them out of the Church upon this Motive of opposing such an Authority in the Pope as has been acknowledged by General Councils and the ordinary Exercise of it to be regulated by approved Canons since I suppose such Authority regards only Ecclesiastical Affairs But your Church will not be contented with this for she will extend it also to Temporal matters even to the disposing of Kingdoms deposing of Princes absolving Subjects from their natural Allegiance expresly commanded in Holy Scripture c. Cath. Where do you find that our Church invests the Pope with such an Authority Prot. I cannot distinctly tell you that but of this I am assured that the Pope challenges it and as by Divine Right Cath. How do you ground such an assurance you will not surely esteem this to be an irrefragrable Proof thereof because some of his Predecessors have challenged it when as for above a thousand years before them not any precedent Pope ever pretended to it But let it be supposed that the present Pope did now challenge it Will you not live in a Community in which the Governor challenges more then you will grant to be his due Prot. No truly especially if that Authority to which he pretended endangers the ruine of Kingdoms or the utter banishment of Peace every where For such an Authority I am sure was never established on earth by our Saviour who is the Prince of Peace And that which makes me assured hereof is this because if Christ had had such an intention of dissolving the Frame of all Civil Government through the world he would have left in Scripture or Tradition most express proofs of such his will in a matter of that infinite importance whereas the quite contrary rather appears Cath. You say well But will you run out of the Church in case a Pope should chance to challenge more then his due when perhaps no obligation lies upon you to submit to such Authority challenged by him or to acknowledg the justice of it Prot. Dare you disacknowledg this Authority §. 65. Cath. What I acknowledg or disacknowledg is not material But to rectify your mistake I will sincerely acquaint you with the whole matter as it stands at this day and thence you may collect what must be required from you in case you are a Catholic Prot. You will much oblige me therein Cath. Then it cannot be denyed that besides that Temporal Power indeed belonging to the Pope within his own Dominions of which he is now the Temporal Soveraign several Popes in former times have both Challenged and actually exercised an unlimitted Temporal Iurisdiction over other Kingdoms and Empires Which Iurisdiction if it hath not been expresly acknowledged as just yet it hath been sometimes submitted to by Kings either obnoxious and unable to resist or desirous to make use of it for their own advantage against Enemies or Rebels Several examples hereof remain in our Records particularly during the Raigns of King Iohn and Henry the third But generally Princes when freed from such exigences have resolutely and stoutly resisted such pretentions of the Roman Court. If we now descend to latter times and cast our view on the present state of Christendom we shall find Kings and states so far from admitting such an exorbitant forrain Iurisdiction to be exercised or acknowledged within their Dominions that not any of them will permit Rescripts Bulls or Mandats from Rome though regarding even Ecclesiastical affairs unless touching private inferior persons to be published and much less executed within their states till examined and approved in their respective Councils Nay more then this even the Canons of Reformation prescribed by the General Council of Trent as far as they are suspected to entrench upon the Temporal Power of Princes have always been refused to
themselves from Her but submit patiently to her Censures which she should lay upon them If her Censures were just they would have no reason to complain If unjust God would reward them for their Patience and love of Peace §. 23. They were no sooner separated but they heaped on the Church all the most despightful reproaches and Calumnies they could invent and to heighten their Criminal Schism to the uttermost they formed New Societies which they called Churches and therein established New Pastors and a New Ecclesiastical Ministry the very Sin for which God commanded the Earth to swallow Core Dathan and Abiron Amongst the Gifts which our Lord when he led captivity captive received from his Father and bestowed on his Church the principal Gift mentioned by St. Paul was his constituting therein Apostles Pastors and Teachers to continue to the end of the world by a legitimate Succession There is not the least intimation given in Scripture or Tradition that this Succession should ever be interrupted Yet as if it had quite ceased and been annulled these Reformers without any Warrant usurp a Power to take all Authority out of the hands of those to whom our Saviour had given it and to bestow it according to their own pleasure thus making a total reversement of the whole frame of Gods Church as far as lyes in their Power through the whole World If Christ himself had thus without testifying his Authority by Miracles dealt with the Iewish Synagogue he would not have expected belief nor been able to answer that Question proposed to Him By what authority dost thou these things and who gave thee this Authority Luke 20. 2. Yet all this our late Reformers have done without ever pretending to one Miracle Into whatever place they come through the whole earth they as far as their Secular power extends degrade and chase away all Bishops Priests and Pastors professing the Catholic Religion they take Authority to defame them as false Pastors and true Wolves they denounce Anathemas against them they incite their Subjects to rebel defraud and persecute them as if God had given his iron Rod into the hands of these Gladiators and conferred on them the ends of the earth for their inheritance No man takes his Power of Ecclesiastical Jurisdiction but he that is called as was Aaron Heb. 5. 4. Who called these men to the Office of Preaching and governing Christians Who invested them with such Authority If we consult their own Stories we shall find the prime Ministers in the principal Cities of France constituted and consecrated by hands of the basest sort of Tradesmen There have not been nor even now are wanting among them several sensual Priests once they had a Bishop Apostates from the Catholic Church whom they might employ in the Office of Preaching and Praying in their Synagogues and by that means make a shew that some of their Ministers were indeed Clergymen who had an ordinary Vocation But such hatred they bear to all Ecclesiastical Order that even these shall not be admitted into the Presbytery without renouncing their former ordinary Vocation and receiving their Commission by a New imposition of hands of Lay-Ministers In a word I should weary both you and my self if I should enumerate all the enormities of your first Reformation If you have a mind you may receive sufficient information in a late Book written in French the Title whereof is in English Legitimate Prejudgments against Calvinists in which the learned Author demonstrates by several titles as by what appeared exteriourly in the life of the first Reformers by want of Mission by the evidence of their being guilty of Schism by their temerity most prodigious in their presumption to establish a New Ecclesiastical Ministry by the Spirit of calumny and injustice which generally actuates them by their peculiar most monstrous Doctrines taught by them by their ridiculously impossible way of instructing their Disciples in Christian verities c. By these Marks I say he shews that they do not deserve to be admitted to an examination of their Pretended Reform'd Religion being manifestly prejudged and self condemned §. 24. Prot. But surely Sir you will not apply this to the Reformed Church of England and particularly that charge concerning the want of Lawful Pastors We have been far from making a breach in the Chain of Succession since if there be lawful Pastors in the Roman Church we have the like in the English in as much as we received our Ordinations from Rome Cath. For as much as concerns your Ordinations I will not here enter into any dispute neither indeed is it needful But this I may confidently say That since English Protestants have especially of late by many tokens shewed that they esteem Calvinists or Presbyterian Congregations to be true though not so perfect Members of Christs Church as themselves the English Church I may say justifies but however qualifies or excuses that horrible defect in them of want of Ordinations and lawful Mission and thereby involves her self in their guilt Again though it were true that the English Clergy have received their Ordinations from the Roman Catholic Church yet sure I am that Church never released them from their Canonical subjection to their Superiors particularly to their Patriarch and Supream Pastor of Gods Church She never gave them power to change the order of administring Sacraments to reverse Ordinances of Superior Councils to expel Catholic Bishops from their Sees meerly because they were Catholics In a word she never gave them authority to alter or rather destroy the whole Religion in a manner professed in England since they were first Christians If English Bishops have received their Character from Rome yet not Iurisdiction or if that also yet certain it is that the same Church which gave them Iurisdiction can also upon their demerits and exercising it contrary to her intention suspend the administration of it which suspension is no doubt implyed in her condemnation of all their Innovations To be brief the English Church challenging Ordination by lawful Succession is thereby obliged to acknowledg the Roman Church to be at least a true Member of the Catholic Church and consequently her self no such Member unless the Bishops here will confess themselves to be Anti-Catholic Bishops and yet most unreasonably pretend an Union with the Catholic Church §. 25. Prot. She does in deed acknowledg the Roman to be a Member but a corrupt Member of the Catholic Church Cath. Consider Sir I pray you that the Rule of Faith obligeth us to believe the Church of God to be Holy as well as Catholic Now if the Universal Church be Holy or uncorrupt then is every Member of it as far as in its Communion Holy and uncorrupt also Which Holiness does not regard the persons whether Governors or Subjects for in the first and best Church of all consisting of the Apostles and Disciples of our Lord only there was a Iudas and a Nicolas A Church is said
the very challenging of such a Right which belongs only to the truly Catholic Church is a strong proof that She alone is that Church which hath a Right to challenge it and would prove her self a false Church if She did not challenge it But because perhaps you cannot easily induce your mind to consider her otherwise than as a particular Church I confidently believe that if the Eastern Church were united in one Body with the Western you would not find any difficulty to think your self obliged to yield an entire Obedience to so great an Authority Prot. This I willingly acknowledg §. 32. Cath. Be pleased then to reflect on some Age when these two great Churches were united for example in the days of St. Gregory the Great Then there was a perfect agreement through the whole World excepting only the Societies of Ancient Heretics acknowledged for such by Protestants Then both Doctrine and Discipline was uniform every where What St. Gregory taught was accepted through the whole Church Yea those parts of his Writings which are most opposite to your Doctrines as his Dialogues c. have presently after his time been translated into the Greek tongue and with veneration received by that Church Whence will follow that what he hath taught us in his Writings touching Points of Religion and which you most mislike was then esteem'd true Catholic Doctrine Now what does St. Gregory teach but the same which is now taught in the Roman Church In all Controversies lately raised between Catholics and Protestants he is constantly and directly against Protestants This is so manifest that it is acknowledged by many learned Protestants who describing the particular Points of Religion professed by St. Gregory and St. Augustine the Monk sent by him to convert England name these Freewill Merit and Iustification of Works Pennance Satisfaction Purgatory Celibacy of Priests publick Invocation of Saints and Worshipping of them Veneration of Images Exorcisms Pardons Vows Monachism Transubstantiation Prayer for the Dead Oblation of Christ's Body and Blood for the Dead the Roman Bishop's Iurisdiction over all Churches Celebration of Mass Consecrations of Churches Altars Chalices Corporals and Fonts of Baptism Veneration of Relicks Sprinkling of Holy-Water Dedicating Churches to the Bones and Ashes of Saints Indulgencies to such as visit Churches on certain days Pilgrimages and in a word the whole Chaos of Popish Superstition as they are pleased to stile it So that Mr. Ascham affirms of our Apostle St. Augustine the Disciple of St. Gregory that He was the overthrower of true Religion and the establisher of all Popish Doctrines and another saith of him That he subjected England to the lust of Antichrist which Antichrist you must take for granted was St. Gregory and therefore after his death went undoubtedly to Hell there to receive his reward Thus evident Convictions forced them to confess that all the Doctrines of Faith now taught were then professed as Catholic Doctrines but gall and malice against the Church suggested such foul unseemly words to their Pens Notwithstanding Protestant Writers when not being engaged in controversie they have occasion to treat of St. Gregory himself they are not sparing in their Elogies of him such as these He was a holy and a learned Bishop He was by Name and indeed truly Great adorned with many and great endowments of Divine Grace and as he is often styled the mouth and shining light of our Lord. He was truly a pious man and for his Christian humility yet more to be praised From his Infancy being addicted to the studies of Piety he retired into a Monastery where shewing a particular sanctity of life and being wholly intent upon Prayer he drew the eyes of all men upon him He did so discharge the Pontifical Office that following ages never had his equal much less any one excelling him He was exceedingly renowned for Miracles c. Now me thinks Sir the consent of the Eastern and Western Churches under the Government of such a Prelate so versed as he was in holy Scripture witness his Sermons and Commentaries should be so prevalent with you as to make you suspect your own Reason if it suggests to you that the Religion professed in his days was superstitions and idolatrous § 33. Prot. But why do you say that the Universal Church in the East and West was governd by Saint Gregory when he himself sharply condemned the Patriarch of Constantinople for assuming such a Title as Universal Bishop which he calls an Antichristian Title Cath. It was indeed a Title full of arrogance and therefore justly condemned by St. Gregory in the Notion in which he conceived it might be understood as if the Patriarch pretended thereby to be esteemed the only legitimate Bishop in the Eastern Church For thence it would follow that all other Bishops were only his Substitutes acting by his commission and removeable by him at pleasure Whereas they claim a reception of their Order and Character immediately from Christ alone Such a new Title therefore it was that St. Gregory condemned in that Patriarch and abhorred to accept himself as plainly appears by his Epistles But yet that he had a Superintendence over the whole Church as Supreme Pastor thereof to receive and judge Appeals of Bishops from all Parts in causis majoribus to oblige all Prelates even Patriarchs to the Profession of the Faith established in Councils and the observance of the Churches Laws and to impose Ecclesiastical Censures on all Transgressors of them this St. Gregory challenged and to this the Prelates both of the Western and Eastern Churches also submitted as appears by many Epistles sent by him and Answers received from several Patriarchs and other Prelates in the East §. 34. Since therefore it is confessedly certain that the present Roman Church professes the same Religion which Saint Gregory taught and planted in England which the Eastern Church in those times approved without any contradiction and which is now condemned by Protestants it will evidently follow that in those few Points in which the present Eastern Churches quarrel with the Roman the said Eastern Churches only have been Innovators and consequently that the Roman Church that is all Churches united in subordination to the Prime Patriarch and Pastor still remains the Catholic Church and enjoys the same Authority which the Universal Church in and before St. Gregories days enjoyed So that all Christians who break from her Communion do thereby shew themselves Schismaticks and Self-condemned §. 35. I have purposely made choice to instance in the time of St. Gregory the Great because on the one side several Protestants impute the beginning of the Churches depravation principally to that Age and on the other side Almighty God as if he had a design to confute and silence their accusations chose that Age especially in which to accomplish that most illustrious of all Prophesies foreshewing the glory of the Catholic Church which is the Conversion of Nations from Heathenish Idolatry
require Belief of them we cannot assent to them without rendring our selves guilty of apparent contradicting Scripture generally in them all and no less than the heynous Crimes of Superstition and Idolatry in several of them Cath. I do not much wonder to hear from you so a cruel a Censure of our Catholic Belief Yea perhaps I should my self joyn with you in the like if I should take a prospect of the Church by the same false Light that I perceive you have done Prot. Why Sir from whence should I receive Light to discover what you teach but from our Controvertists §. 52. Cath. I did not at all doubt from whence that which you call Light came And therefore permit me to tell you that if you frame your judgment touching the Faith of Catholics by what you find commonly in Controvertists you will condemn you know not what nor whom Prot. This is strange Do none of our Controvertists understand what your Church teaches §. 53. Cath. What and how much they understand I cannot define But this I may with confidence say that generally judging of your Controvertists not a twentieth part of one of their Volumes contains an examination of the necessary Faith of the Church which Faith notwithstanding is pretended to be confuted in every Page Prot. Notwithstanding what you say yet your Controvertists also in answering our Books do take on them to defend whatsoever ours oppose as the Doctrines of your Church Cath. It is too true indeed of some of them who deserve much to be blamed for giving thereby occasion to our Adversaries to multiply unnecessary Debates by a partial esteem of their own private adopted Opinions of their peculiar Interpretations of the Churches Doctrines their probable Additions to them and Inferences from them all which they are desirous should pass for Points of Catholic Faith Besides this several Schoolmen there are whose end of Writing being to boast their Wit and Subtilty who will penetrate into all things no Mysteries shall be incomprehensible to their Philosophy and who think it a great Mastery to advance Positions bordering on the very brink of Heresie Speculative or Moral and then by some nice Distinction to prove them if not Orthodox at least not deserving the utmost Censures And of these mens rashness Protestants oft-times take advantage and zealously oppose them as if the Church were obliged to make good their aery Speculations §. 54. Prot. What Expedient then do you propose to me by which I may be certainly informed of your Churches Doctrines Cath. The way is plain easie and short if you will look before you and not wilfully go out of it Prot. I pray you put me into that way Cath. The way is to examine candidly and seriously the Churches own Decisions only which if you do you will find how little she is concern'd in the accusations you lay against her Prot. If this prove true surely our Modern Controvertists have a dreadful Account to make to God who seem studiously to design the widening of the breaches amongst Christians Cath. That what I say is true I dare take the confidence to make your self the Iudge And this I undertake to demonstrate through all the controverted Points before mentioned by you not by disputing alledging Proofs or answering Objections but only by representing to you in a simple manner the pure naked Doctrine of the Church in relation to all these Points Prot. I am likewise sufficiently averse from clamorous Disputes which commonly are only Prizes of a quick Fancie or voluble tongue and fomentors of unruly Passions Therefore I expect what you intend to say §. 55. Cath. Before I begin I have a few Requests in my judgment not unreasonable to make to you The first is 1. That having supposed that upon a true or false Belief Eternity of Happiness or Misery depends you would force your Imagination to put your self in that state in which your first Reformers really were immediately before they broke from the Churches Obedience and Communion and supposing that you were earnestly tempted by them also to forsake it by adhering to a New-begun Society never heard of in the world before upon a pretence that the Church in which you live and which you as yet esteem to be the true Catholic Church teaches most pernicious Errours Superstitions and Idolatrous practices Of the Justice of which pretence your Tempters now declared Enemies will needs be the Iudges Prot. This I will endeavour to perform §. 56. 2. Cath. My Second Request is That you will acknowledge that the Doctrines of Catholic Faith once decided by the Church are to be understood in the plain literal Sence and in the latitude of the Churches expression And by consequence that when they are severally restrained to different particular Senses by interpretation of Catholic writers such Interpretations are not necessarily to be admitted by you And much less are other Doctrins by inference drawn from them to be esteemed Points of Catholic Faith but only Opinions of particular Divines which do not oblige to Assent Prot. This ought in reason to be acknowleged §. 57. 3. Cath. My third and last Request is That when your Tempters shall tell you that the Catholic Church teaches Dostrins contrary to Scripture you would acknowledge that unless such a pretended Contrariety can be evidently demonstrated to you you ought not for that cause to forsake the Churches Communion For undoubtedly where her Doctrines seem only probably contrary to some Text of Scripture her Authority is such as to oblige you to belive that her Sence ought to be preferred before that of her Enemies who are desstitute of all Authority And it would be madness to transgress the necessary Duty of peaceful Obedience and of avoiding Schism upon a probable hope of finding some Truths elsewhere Prot. Reason requires that this also be granted §. 58. Cath. These concessions therefore being presupposed give me leave to put you in mind of what you said at the entrance into this our Discourse viz. That this may be with full assurance asserted that you cannot assent to any of those Doctrines taught by the Roman Church and rejected by your Party without rendering your self guilty of apparent contradicting Scripture Prot. I remember this well but how will you disprove me Cath. If this Perswasion of yours were well grounded it would be not only in vain but unlawful for me to seek to withdraw you from it But being on the other side assured that what you say is apparent is only so in a false appearance to your mind prepossessed I hope I may without vanity promise to demonstrate to you that you only think an this without Ground that you are assured Prot. You make large Promises to your self which I believe will have small effect upon me Cath. Sir Truth and a Good intention make me confident that Divine Grace which is Omnipotent will accompany them Whereas therefore you say That Roman Doctrines are apparently or evidently contrary