the least three times in the yeare before the Lord in Hierusalem to testifie by their sacrifices their vnion in faith and religion Now after the wall of separation was brokē down which was between the Iewes the Gentiles they both the Iewes I say the Gentiles are brought into one body not only by the preaching of the one gospel of Iesus to them both but also by administring to them the Sacramēts which the lord Iesus hath ordeyned that is Baptisme the sacrament of his body bloud Iesus sayde to his Apostles Matth. 28 Goe teache all nations baptising them in the name of the father the sonne and of the holy Ghoste Here is enioyned both the teaching of the gospel of Iesus also the ministring of the sacrament of Baptisme And with the ministerie of baptisme is the administration of that other sacrament to be ioined which S. Paul did also ioyne in his ministerie 1. Cor. 11 when he did so deliuer the holy supper as he had receiued the same of the Lord. Thus is the church grounded vpō the foundation of the Prophets Apostles that is euen vpon Iesus Christ him selfe who is the verie substance of the doctrine Propheticall and Apostolicall And this is it that S. Paul teacheth when he sayeth that the Church is the piller of the trueth For the worde of God 1. Tim. 3 which is the trueth as Christ sayeth Ioan. 17 doth sustaine vphold the Church as Chrysostom expoundeth that place And to this purpose serueth that which olde father Irene writeth Iren. lib 3 cap. 11. Columna firmamentū Ecclesiae est Euangelium spiritus vitae The piller and the buttresse of the church is the gospell and the spirite of life The gospell is the ground on which the true church is planted and set Likewise the church doeth staye it selfe onely vpon the worde of God is stayed by it without which worde the church could neither be a true churche of Christ nor be stayed in him By the ministerie of the church the trueth is spread abroad vppon the earth among men The true church of Christ doeth truely teach publish the gospell of Christ which is the trueth The trueth worde of God is placed in the church as in a sure well knowen place For God doeth by it shew his power to saue al them which do beleeue Rom. 1. These are therefore the true and infallible markes of the church which is for this cause called the mother of the beleeuers which are engendred and nourished in it by this true and vncorrupted pasture and foode Nowe if there be the saide preaching of the worde of God and syncere administration of the holy sacraments it must needs followe that there are also pastors and teachers to whome this charge of teaching administration is cōmitted And this is the cause why some haue added to these marks this as a third marke of the church that is the ordinarie succession of these pastors and ministers from the time of the Apostles till nowe In deede such a succession is greatly to be liked regarded and embraced but so that this succession be rightly considered examined explicated and applyed to the purpose And so did many of the auncient fathers ayde them selues much against the heretikes which did start vp in their dayes as Irene Tertullian and Augustine did against the Marcionites Manichees and Donatistes But because some men do vse this matter of succession as a weapon against vs as though we were newe heretikes deuisers of newe doctrines therefore you shall knowe what wee doe thinke touching this matter of succession Succession We saye that there are two kindes of succession The one is of doctrine The other is of persons Touching the succession of doctrin we holde that it is an vnfallible rule and marke of the true church But as touching the succession personall wee do allowe it vppon this condition that it be ioyned with the doctrine of the Prophets and Apostles in the substanciall pointes thereof Wee speake of doctrine and not of manners For though there be required in a true pastor sound doctrin and godly life yet it may be through some ignorance that a pastor may fayle in some such point of doctrine as is not a substantiall point of the doctrine perteining to our saluation whome we will that notwithstanding accompt as a true pastor so that he holde the foundation sure and soundly Likewise though he doe faile in some point of manners and doe become faultie yet wee will esteeme him as a pastor and teacher if he doe teach soundly Wee are taught thus to doe by the saying of our sauiour Iesus Christe who teacheth vs to heare the Scribes and Pharisees Matth. 23. which doe sit in Moses chaire Wee must doe that which they teache but we must not doe that which they do Which sentence Tract 46 Augustine writing vpon the gospell of Saint Iohn openeth thus That it is to bee vnderstanded of hyrelings which do teach sounde doctrine and that it is not to be vnderstanded of false teachers For of them Christ sayde Beware of the leauen of the Pharises They which do sit in Moses chaire sayth Augustine do teach the lawe of God and God doeth teach the people by them But if they will teach their owne doctrines heare them not do not as they teache The same thing doeth Augustine in an other place handle that is De verbïs Domini Serm. 49. Because false teachers may succeed the true in the teaching place and so the wolues may succede good sheapheardes we do not therfore receiue and allowe all personall succession For this kinde of succession may giue a cloke to falshod if the succession of doctrin be not ioyned to it as the foundation thereof Moreouer those men which will holde the succession personall simply and of it selfe alone to be a true infallible mark of the true church these men must shewe vs some promise of God by which hee hath promised to binde his grace to those certaine seates places and countries that in them shoulde be such a sure and continuall succession of holy men Bishoppes succeeding one an other This promise we finde not in the newe Testament Wee learne there that Christe will alwayes haue his christian catholike and vniuersall church the particular members and partes whereof are dispersed scatered abroade throughout the whole vniuersall worlde as it pleaseth God to exercise his iudgementes vppon them whome either he cutteth off for euer or on them whome he doth chastice and afflict for a time and to enlarge his mercies vpon them whō hee leadeth from good to better or that hee doeth call some of them anewe to the true knowledge of himselfe For sometimes the Lord God shewing foorth his iust vengeaunce doeth so cast downe and cutt of all that hee will not leaue so much as a trace of his true church in a place as sometimes he
the holy Church But a man is not saide properly to beleeue that which hee seeth For beleefe is of thinges not seene but of such thinges as God hath promised though they bee not seene with the bodilie eye Nowe of visibilitie I say that as Christ Iesus our Lorde beeing in the worlde to worke the worke of our saluation was visible in the glorie and maiestie of the true Messiah so is his true Church visible in the worlde Iohn 17. For as hee was in the world so are they which are his that is his true Church in the worlde so seene and visible that the children of God the verie elect of God are both illuminate to see it to ioyn themselues to it as Simeon Anna Zacharie and other did see and ioyne themselues to the person of Messiah So did that blinde man which was cured as we doe reade in the gospell Iohn 9. Iohn 4. Likewise did the simple woman whō Christ Iesus did vouchsafe to teach in the same Gospell see more of the glorie and maiestie of the true Messiah in the person of Iesus than did al the bishops priests Scribes and Pharisees which caryed the countenance and credit of the Church among mē And as Obadiah did see 1. Reg. 18. and ioyne himselfe to the true Church of God in the darke dayes of Achab It is also so visible that satan is suffred to espie it and by his members to persecute it euen as hee did the person of our Lorde Iesus who is the heade of his true Church If men wil not content themselues with this sight but will haue their sight satisfied after their fansie with a visible worldly glorie of a church in this worlde more visible than Christ himselfe was whose Church in this worlde shall haue and bee in the same condition that himselfe had in it let these men take heede that they doe not fall into the lappe of the whoore of Babylon and take her for the church of Christ For the whore of Babylon hath her glorious visibilitie in the worlde shee is visible that in great worldly pompe glorie Now thē some will say to what companie or church thē shal I ioyn my self how shal I know finde that church in which I may heare receiue the doctrine of saluation yea if the church be inuisible so that we cannot see it we cānot heare the doctrin therof we shal not come to the true knowledge of GOD to worship him nor yet of our dutie to our king nor our rulers nor yet how we are bownde to obeye them I answere that though the church be invisible in that respect that I haue spoken off yet when it commeth in question to what company or church we shuld ioyn our selues we haue certein sure markes to directe vs rightly in this doubt These markes are The open Markes and true preaching of the worde of God and The sounde administration of the holy Sacramentes which markes are playne and apparant Wheresoeuer these marks are without doubt we are bounde to beleeue that there the true Church is and that companie wee ought to esteeme to bee the faithfull Church which doth professe the religion of the Lord our God as it is taught in his holy word Thus the Apostle doth call the companie dwelling in Corinth and the Galathians faithfull and Sainctes and giueth vnto them the name of the Church in generall although there were amonge them great faultes aswell in ignorance of doctrine as corruption of life Which thing also he taught 1. Cor. 3. when hee saide that all they which did holde the foundation did not alwayes builde vpon it golde or siluer or precious stones but also stubble and hay Thus wee speake of the Church in sounde and substantiall trueth We doe not make of it a fantasticall thing conceiued onely by imagination neither are we carried away in the fonde conceites of the Donatistes or Catharians nor in the furious frensies of the Anabaptistes Let mee therefore nowe speake somewhat of the marks witnesses of the Church which ought well to bee knowne marked because by them we may be directed rightly to that Church in which saluation is to be had Neither is there any one thing by which Sathan our olde enemie doeth labour more to deceiue men then by the title wrong opinion of the Church There are two marks as I said most certaine and infallible by which the true Church is knowne and discerned from all other conuenticles and assemblies of men The first is the pure preaching of the worde of God The second is the sincere administration of the holy Sacramentes To these some haue ioyned the true discipline and the fruite of obedience to the gospell preached And in truth there ought to be such a christian policie for the gouernement of the church as the lorde of the church Christ Iesus hath ordeined such obedience shewed to the gospell as it commaundeth But because the abounding force of our sinnes are such that often times these two last things do not so fully apeare in their maiestie and excellencie as they ought to doe therefore we doe rest our selues vpon the two first named markes The preaching of the word is a most sure and certeine marke token of the true church of Christ And therefore the preaching of the gospell is compared to the seede sowen Matt. 13. and by the preaching of the gospell it is sayd 1. Cor. 4. that the Corinthians were begotten vnto God For this cause also is the preaching of the gospell called the pasture in which the children of God do feede It is the nurriture with which they are nourished And Christ Iesus sayeth My sheepe do heare my voice Ioan. 10. and that they do not heare the voice of a strāger Yea Christ teacheth vs how by hearing and not hearing the worde of God wee shall know them which are of God For he sayeth Ioan. 8. He that is of God heareth Gods words Ye therefore heare them not because ye are not of God They which are of God doe heare receiue and obey his worde they are his true church They which do not heare nor receiue his worde are not of God are not his true church The second sure tokē of the true church is the sincere administration of the holy sacramēts For it is the good pleasure of God to call feed his flock not onely by the voice of his gospel and worde sounding in their eares but also by mouing their eyes and other senses bodily And therfore he ordeyned that his sacraments should be certein witnesses visible seales of the vnion of his childrē with him selfe of one of them with another And this was one cause why it was sayd to the people of God Gen. 17. that he that was vncircumcised should be rooted out from among the people of god To this end also did all the heads of housholds apere at
did in Iurie and is in our time come to passe in Barbarie In some other place he doth so destroy that yet hee leaueth there some little trace and token of a church as now we may see in al Graecia and in some other places also more neare to vs. Sometimes also the Lorde doeth cut off the personal succession of Pastors by the fault corruption negligence and sluggishnesse of the Pastors themselues or by such violence as is vsed against those pastors which are good Of the firste wee may take example of the church of Antioche in which Samosatenus an euill heretike did thorowe corruption and ouersight succeede good fathers going before him Of the seconde the church of Alexandria may giue vs an example out of which when good Athanasius was banished Arians did succeed The like is to be seene also in moe other churches by him that will marke the histories of the church Such a cutting off and breaking of personall succession was euen in the church of Rome more than once or twise As when Honorius the first of that name being Pope and Bishoppe there was condemned for partaking with the horrible heresie of Eutiches about the yeare of our Lorde 623. And when Iohn the xxii of that name was by a general coūcel condēned for heresie Likewise was the personal successiō cut off in Rome when that womā Pope Anno Do. 854. whom in her popedome they called Iohn who before was called Agnes was Bishoppe of Rome as Ioannes Chemensis Episcopus doeth report in his booke intituled Onus Ecclesiae So was it cutt off also in the person of Siluester the seconde and of Gregorie the seuenth and in a number of such necromanticall Popes Likewise it was cut off in the times of the romish schismes and when schismaticall Popes who were in those schismes helde the helme and did sit as they say in Peters chaire when Pope was against Pope euen in Rome one Pope cursing an other Pope chalenging to each of them Peters chaire that for the space of many yeares And sometimes they all that thus chalenged were turned out of the seat of Rome and that by decree of a generall councel As at Constance three Popes were vnpoped at once and at Basill one This proueth sufficiently the of cutting of the personall succession in the Popes and Bishoppes of Rome To this also may be added the tragedies which Pope played against Pope from the time of pope Formosus which was about the yeare 893. vntill the time of Pope Leo the viii of that name The wise reader shal easily perceiue how Pope sought to cutt off Pope both in person and proceedings one condemning that which an other had decreed besides cruelties exercised on the bodyes of some of them being deade This schisme in the church of Rome is noted haue bene verie long therewith most cruell So that if there were want of other helpes the Popes themselues haue holpen vs plentifully to see how the personall succession in the church of Rome hath beene cut off by Popes themselues The cruel and popelike tragedies in Rome doe so displease the Papistes themselues that one of them Fascicul temp writing the history of this time bursteth out into this exclamation O most cursed times Nauclet to 2. And one other hath it in horror to report howe many things were wickedly done by no fewer thā 28. popes one succeeding an other Let the godly reader also wey what cutting of ther was of this personall succession whē by the pott of poyson Pope after pope was cutt off by that cunning poysoner Brazutus which yet at the length made some stay in one of the worst that euer did sit at Rome Gregorie the seuenth as no lesse man of credite than a Cardinall doth write Beno So that if either cutting off persons or cutting off the doctrines degres of popes may bee taken to bee a cutting off the personall succession in Rome then was it cutt off many yeares since Therefore without looking to this personal successiō which doth oftē and by many occasions faile a godly christian may full well know the true church of Christ And so shall he doe if hee will obserue when and where the true doctrine of God is taught and the syncere administration of the holy Sacramentes is obserued They are to be taken for the successors of the Apostles which being lawefully called to this ministerie do build vpon the foundation of the Apostles and doe enter into their labours whether they haue among thē a personal succession in perpetuitie or that it hath bene cut off for a time or that themselues bee the first that preach the Gospell in the place to which they are called to exercise the office of a true minister of Christes church And on the contrary part those pastors in place which do not preach the gospell of God at all or which in steade of preaching the doctrine of the Apostles do preach their own doctrine by themselues inuented though they doe alleadge a thousand of their predecessors which folowed one an other in personall succession yet are they not to bee taken for true pastors but are wolues and so to be takē neither are they nor can they be reputed nor taken to bee the true pastors of Christs church how largly soeuer they account of personall succession His worde is not in their mouthes neither are the congregations which are misseled with such wolues to bee taken to bee the true church of Christ For the true church of Christ doeth not heare the voyce of a stranger But this misseled church doeth both heare and receiue the voyce of a straunger and straunge doctrines They haue not the worde of Christ taught They wil not heare it neither will they haue his holy Sacramentes syncerely administred to them If any man wil aske whether it be lawful for euery mā that wil of his own priuate authoritie to preach the gospell to minister the holy sacramentes I aunswere no truely For all thinges in the house of God must be done in good and comely order as the Apostle doth teach vs. 1. Cor. 14. Who then will you say are the verie true pastors and teachers Euen they which are lawfully called to that office and doe it faithfully Now then we must knowe what a lawfull calling is There is a forme Of calling or maner of calling ordinarie Ther is also a form or maner of calling extraordinarie That is rightly ordinarie in which that order is obserued which God hath established in his worde and church In this order is first right assigning of men to do the office truly to which by the worde of God they are called Then a triall must be had of their habilitie in doctrine and examination of life Then a lawfull election or choosing Last of all followeth the imposition of handes This is to be seene by the example of the practise of the Apostles themselues For so was Mathias
the substantiall pointes of trueth touching our saluation shall alwayes be buryed in the whole church but the Lord will haue alwayes some number in it sometime litle sometime great which shal vnderstand that which they ought to vnderstande and follow that which they ought to followe So did it come to passe in the time of the Prophet Eliah in Israel and in the captiuitie of Babylon and also in the time of the comming of our sauiour Christ For euen then was founde a number though but a litle number of them whose hearts were touched with the knowledge and taste of trueth as Zacharie Elizabeth Iohn the Baptist Ioseph the virgin Marie Simeon Anna. These did knowe and had the right and sure vnderstanding of the certein fulfilling of the prophecies of the comming of the promised Sauiour And yet they liued in the midst of the corruptiōs of the Scribes Pharisees Sadduces priestes Such interruptions of open professing the trueth happen in the church of God proceeding of the iniquitie of men as a thick mist which after vanisheth away by the heat of the Sunne of the doctrine I meane of the worde of God when it pleaseth God according to his secrete ordinance iudgement wisedome to suffer the same Sunne of his worde to shine foorth with power maiestie then trueth is seen embraced professed of the elect children of God Thinke you now that we will or that we doe reiect al the old Councels Nay verily but this I say that if all the rules giuen in the eldest best of them were put in execution at this daye they woulde make a greater change in the popish or Romish church called catholike than they would or could doe in the church which is nowe reformed by the gospell of Iesus But let the holy word of God be the touchestone to trye examine all that is sayde or done in the church and then it will be easily seene where the true church is Count not this a straunge thing that I require For it is an olde saying receiued before our times of the most catholike doctors Augustine writing to Maximinus the Arrian Li. 2. ca. 14 Is there any generall Councell more allowed or approued than that first Councell which was holden at Nice I trowe not sayeth he And what is that Councell which was holden at Ariminum It was a Councell reiected condemned for good cause Augustine there handleth a principall point of our Christian faith that is the diuinitie of Christ our Lord Sauiour And yet Augustine saith that for his part he wil not be boūd to the Nicene councell neither wil he haue the Ariā bound to the Councell holden at Ariminum but he wil haue the matter tried by the holy scriptures which are the meetest witnesses for both partes It may be that these Romish mē which doe runne away from the scriptures will say that there is great darknesse in the holy scripture I answere that it is most true which saint Paul saith that the naturall man perceiueth not the thinges of the spirite of God 2. Cor. 2. It is true also that saint Peter sayth 2. Pet. 1. that no prophecie in the scripture is of any priuate interpretation But yet this obscuritie is not so great but that the scriptures can expound them selues And therfore doeth our Lord and chiefe master Iesus send vs to the scriptures to nothing else but to the scriptures Search you the scriptures sayth he Ioan. 5. Luc. 16. Abraham beeing required by the damned rich man to sende some one frō the dead to admonish his brethren which yet liued in his old house answered thus They haue sayth Abraham Moses and the Prophets If they will not beleeue them they will not beleeue any that shall come to them from the dead And howe did all those moste auncient and godly Christians before vs which had among them only the scriptures of the Prophets and Apostles before that any commentarie or explication was written vppon any of them by the olde writers did they not then fetche all their light of the holy scripture onely A Romish man will here drawe vs to receiue the traditions Apostolicall for a moste sure interpretation of the holy scripture Traditions And by Apostolicall traditions he wil meane that which hath beene always receiued in the church through all the church and by them all which haue beene of the church But nowe who can assure vs that these three pointes are to be founde in any of these traditions which they do call Apostolicall traditions I doe not knowe who can doe it There is great diuersitie to be founde in the bookes and writings of the auncient fathers and that in some pointes touching faith And againe touching these wordes alwayes and of all let the Romish men tell vs at what time wee shall begin the account of this alwayes If wee will do well wee must fetch the beginning of this time euen at the church Apostolike And who shall be the firste in this account verily the Apostles them selues must be the first that shal begin this account the historie of whome is faithfully written by S. Luke and by their owne writings wee must take knowledge of them their doctrine and their doings All trueth commeth of God And God hath chosen his Prophets and Apostles to speake in his name vnto vs all that trueth which doeth appertaine to our saluation Therefore wee must alwayes haue and make our recourse to the holy scriptures And yet wee doe not vtterly cast away the aduice of Councels nor of the auncient fathers Wee doe proue that which they do saye by the holy scriptures The which holy scriptures as Augustine doeth saye truely are so tempered by the holy spirite of God that that which is obscurely spoken in one place is clearely expressed in another place of them Some of the Romish rout haue sayd that the whole wil of God touching all that which doeth appertaine to our saluation is not all written by the Apostles and Euangelists By this wicked false saying they make an open way to bring in al that falsehood error vntrueth which men list to deuise And it is the way by which Satan hath entred to destroy the vineyard of the Lorde to sowe therein his darnell of damnation and cockle choking true doctrine and Christian faith I graunt that before the time of Moses God gouerned his church by heauenly visions inspirations and reuelations But the Apostles planted the churches of God by his holy worde written And the malice of men growing with the number of them and the better sort of men decaying together with goodnes it was the good pleasure of the Lorde our God that this doctrine shoulde be written in a tongue common and knowen by which plaine trueth Gods children might receiue all that doctrin which concerneth saluation and might also withstand all subtilties creeping in vnder the couler of traditions or reuelations or custome or other
deuice of man whatsoeuer Now if the doctrine of our saluation were written but in parte how shal we do for the rest which is wanting Saint Iohn doth not speake so scantly of the holy scriptures as these Romish mē do For he saith that the thinges Ioan. 20. which hee hath written are written to this ende that we beleeuing them might haue life that is saluation for that is life indeede Then is there no other doctrine necessarie to saluation but that which is written in the holy scriptures And that which is written in the holy scriptures suffiseth vnto saluation Saint Paul teaching vs what the vse of the scripture is teaching vs all I say in the person of his scholer Timothie 2. Tim. 3. saith that they doe make the man of God not onely euery faithful minister Pastor but euery faithful man perfect and fully perfited Then a mā nedeth not any vnwritten verity or traditiō as they are called Apostolike Yet I do not deny but that there haue beene alwayes vnwritten traditions touching order and manner of doing in the church but not so in poyntes of doctrine touching faith and saluation Nowe because men haue long time abused the name of tradition we must learne to knowe which are traditiōs to be allowed receiued and which are not to be allowed This is easie to be done if we will set before vs some pointes by them frame our iudgement First we must put a iust difference betwen doctrine and matter of rites and orders of the church In doctrine the Apostles deliuered in the worde by them written onely and wholy all that which they had rceiued of the Lord. To this then I adde that if the traditions offered to vs be agreeable to the worde of God and are meete and fit for edifying then are they to bee receiued For this is a thing assured that niether the Apostles nor the true Pastors did appoynt any orders or maners of doing which were either directly or indirectly contrarie to the doctrine of the gospell nor such as should turne any man neuer so little from the seruice of God which is spiritual This being obserued of vs it shal be easie for vs to discerne the doctrin frō traditions and the false traditions frō the true It was accompted with the old father Tertullian a very straunge thing that any man should say that he had omitted to teach any thing either by word of mouth or by writing of that which doth apertain to our saluation I will say further that all that which the Apostles did deliuer as traditiōs in matter of order rites maners of doing are not to be kept perpetually For according to the rule of charitie they ordeined touching the strangled not to eat blood Act. 15.29 conforming their tradition herein to the infirmitie of the Iewes Some like thing may be noted in the doings of S. Paul in the person of Timothie Act 16.3 Act. 18.18 yea and in him selfe also which thinges can haue no place at this day but onely in this that the generall rule must be obserued that wee must apply ourselues to the commoditie profite of our neighbour in those thinges which are indifferent The like thinges may bee gathered touching the traditions and manners of doing which they applyed to their time As where he speketh of kissing and of hauing the heade vncouered in signe of authoritie 1. Cor. 16. 1. Cor. 11. which are thinges contrarie to the manner of doinges in these dayes in many coūtries where men woulde count it very straunge that men shoulde kisse one an other or that a man should kisse any womā other than his own wife And also to speake at this day with the head bare and vncouered is a signe and token of subiection not of authoritie All these thinges are well to be considered before wee doe receiue any custome or tradition as Apostolike For the name of the Apostles is not to bee abused to trouble the Church in any thing as it was abused in the controuersie about the keeping of the day of the Pasque which wee call Easter And likwise when some abused the name of the Apostles and the authoritie of the Church of Hierusalem Actes 15. labouring vnder this pretence to mingle Iudaisme with Christianisme as it is written in the Actes of the Apostles There it was ordeined that the consciences of men shoulde not be charged with any such yoke Wee can not thinke therfore that the Apostles did inuent so many ceremonies as are nowe vsed in the obseruation of which is set the forgiuenes of sinnes and merites For they haue plainely protested the contrarie neither woulde they giue place to the ceremonies of Moses of which God him selfe was the author Long agoe did Augustine complayne of the multitude of ceremonies Ep. ad Ianuarium and humayne traditions brought into the Church But what would he haue saide if hee had liued in such a time as ours is To be short therefore we do require that the holy scriptures which are in this point most plain cleare may guide vs to discerne betweene the traditiōs which are good and which are badd holy and prophane hurtful and profitable necessarie and superfluous These thinges being decided it shall be easie to determine this question touching traditions and so wee may come to touch a seconde question which is dropped downe to vs from Rome Whether the church be aboue the scriptures that is whether the church bee aboue the scriptures which is as vnhandsome a question as if one should aske whether the child be aboue the father the scholer aboue the schole-master the wife aboue the husbande or man aboue God But indeede the true church of Christ will not in this matter make any quarrel against god For if it shoulde it shoulde fall in the quarrell and be condemned It is to no purpose to say that the church was before the scriptures For though it were so yet the word of God is more auncient than the church For by the worde the Church is conceiued engendred made named the church That which doeth ingender is before the thing that is ingendred as the father and mother are and haue their beeing before the childe Some will alleadge the saying of Augustine I shoulde not beleeue the scriptures if the authoritie of the Church did not moue me In that place Augustine speaketh of himselfe as he was when he was a Manichee When two contrary parts shal fal into debate touching the truth of an Instrument or writing to whō shall they haue recourse but to the Notarie which keepeth the recorde But yet it will not bee saide that the writinge is grounded vppon the authoritie of the Notarie for that the recorde is true although no man liuing doe beare witnesse thereof So I aunswere them which doe thinke that the holy scripture is not otherwise founded but vppon the determination of the church This verily were a