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doctrine_n	apostle_n	church_n	err_v	2,255	5	9.8950	5	false

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A77724	A publick disputation sundry dayes at Killingworth in Warwick-shire, betwixt John Bryan, doctor in divinity (minister at Coventry) and John Onley, pastor of a church at Lawford. Upon this question, whether the parishes of this nation generally be true churches. Wherin are nine arguments alleged in proof of the affirmative of the question, with the answer of I. O. thereunto, together with Doctor B. Reply. Also an addition of ten arguments more in further proof of the question, with an answer adjoyned in disproof thereof. Published by both their consents, as appears by the ensuing epistles.	Bryan, John, d. 1676.; Onley, John.	1655 (1655)	Wing B5245; Thomason E823_9; ESTC R207672	61,370	75

Psal 63. 1 2. You deny my Minor with the same limitation as you granted the Major God dwels not you say in the Parishes of this Nation as a Church I will to gratify and if it be possible to convince you make good that Christ dwels in the Parishes of this Nation as a Church by those three Reasons evidencing his presence amongst us For the fortifying whereof I was sparing in bringing Scripture-proof or farther reason not because I had not store of both but because I judged it needless to light a Candle to the Sun but seeing you tax me for bare Asserting you shall see me strongly Confirming each of the Reasons taking in your own restriction First I prove the Faithfull Constant Preaching of the Word to be a note of Christs presence with a people as a Church Deus 4. 7 8. So nigh unto them this speciall neerness of God is proved because they had the Law set before them i. e. fixed among them Psal 147. 19 20. By Word he means his will revealed in the Scriptures given to his Church as a most precious and peculiar treasure Zech. 8. 23. The reason why the Gentiles should joyn themselves to the Jews is because the Word was with them we have heard by your Preaching this was the great and glorious prerogative of the Jews which afterward they lost and as soon as they lost it ceased to be a Church Acts 13. 46. the Apostle witnesseth this to be the greatest privilege the Jews had Rom. 3. 1 2. If this be a peculiar privilege to the Church of God to have a standing fixed preaching of the Word among them and if no People in the world can be named that had this ordinance of preaching which were not Gods Church then this is a sure sign Secondly it appears that his working saving Grace by this Ordinance is as a sure sign 1 Cor. 14. 24 25. he will report that God is in you as a Church of a truth John 4. 22. Christ proves the Jewes to be a true Church Because Salvation might be had there out of the Church there is no salvation ordinarily If you can shew that Christ is present to Convert c. in any Societie where his word is faithfully and constantly Preached that is not his Church this Reason shall stand for invalid Thirdly the meeting mentioned Matth. 18. you deny not to be a Church-meeting therefore where a Societie meet to worship God by Prayer as you expound it or for the Administration of Church Censures as the place carries it there Christ is present as his Church Now that the Word is faithfully and constantly Preached in our Assemblyes and that Christ Converts c. by our Preaching and that our People meet together to pray in his Name is manifest to all the world that we have idle ignorant Ministers in many Congregations and a great multitude that want the power of Godliness among us c. is acknowledged but it s well known as bad of both sorts were in the Church of the Jewes and in the Apostolicall Churches which notwithstanding remained true Churches while he continued his presence and they met and joyned in his true worship till God gave them a bill of divorce and withdrew his presence and they cast off Gods true worship through obstinacie Those Assemblies that are built upon the Foundation of the Arg. 5. Prophets and Apostles are true Churches Ephes 2. 19 20. But ours are so built for they have the whole Doctrine of the Old Dr. B. and New Testament for the infallible and immoveable ground of their Faith whereby they subsist in Church-Communion I deny you Minor What you mean by these words they have Answ J. O. the whole Doctrine c. is doubtfull if by having of it you mean Christ hath left this Old and New Testament in the world for the immoveable ground of mens Faith that 's true but nothing to the purpose for if so it 's left to all men and many men may also beleeve it to be so and yet be so far from being built upon it as they walk and build directly from it If you mean that they have it in the practise of it so as they practically build upon it that 's false for such Persons are built upon it as the Apostle holds out in that Chapter such who were dead but now alive saved by Grace such who were made to sit in heavenly places in Christ Now the greater part of the men in your Parishes are such as were never spiritually alive lying in their sins still unquickned therefore they are not built upon that Foundation practically When I say our Assemblies are built upon Propheticall and Apostolicall Reply Doctrine I mean there is no other Doctrine taught or own'd with us but what hath warrant from the Old and New Testament Dr. B. if there be shew it now that hence it followes we are therefore Gods true Church is apparent from the Apostles Scope proving the Ephesians to be the Houshold of God because they were so built for that by building is meant Owning and Confessing the truth I prove from that of our Saviour Mat. 16. 18. nor can you shew any Society Confessing the whole truth of God that was not a true Church The want of Practise which you allege in the greatest part of our Members weakens not at all the force of the Argument for the very same is taxed by our Saviour in the Church of Sardis Rev. 3. 1. Thou hast a name to live and art dead the generalitie of the members of that Church were voyd o● Grace and ungodly men and yet Christ owns it for his Church in the beginning of that verse and how far the Church of Corinth and other Gospell Churches were from being built practically in your sense you have heard sufficiently and yet blessed be God we have in our Parochiall Churches a competent number of practicall Christians that walk exactly according to the rule of the Gospell for whose sakes if you had the Spirit of Christ you would I suppose acknowlege our whole Societies to be his visible Churches That Church that is the pillar and ground of truth is the true Arg. 6. Church 1 Tim. 3. 15. but so is the Church of England in respect of the profession and maintenance of true Religion which it both Dr. B. supporteth as a Pillar and maketh it openly known to others defending it against all Errors Contradictions and Corruptions whatsoever Revel 2. 13. You subtilly alter the termes of the question that the folly of your Argument may not appear instead of these words the Parishes of this Nation you say the Church of England which you ought not to have done the Argument from these words if it include the Question must proceed thus That Church which is the Pillar and ground of Truth is a true Church but so are the Parishes of this Nation in their maintaining and professing true Religion supporting

it as a Pillar c. Now Sir The Minor is evidently false the very naming of it is Confutation sufficient it being evident to behold that the Parishes of this Nation have always been and still are inclinable to whatsoever their Teachers and Rulers set up without ever questioning the truth of it except here and there a man which is nothing to our question it being of the Parishes generally Look upon them in the time of Popery and produce one Parish-Church much less all that opposed the power of the Pope but all inclinable to that wicked worship so in the time of Prelacy how conformable to that never once talking then of Presbytery and I believe as formerl● so now if the power of this Nation should enact that al should turn Independents they would obey without any general opposition and within this few years would as little think of Presbytery which you think to be truth now as they did then when he was Counted an Hereticke that believed not as the Church believed Which was then the scarlet-coloured whore of Rome and yet you let not to say they have been the Pillar of Truth defending it against all Errors which if true Presbytery is false in that the Parishes of this Nation have born Testimony to two contrary Religions Popery and Prelacy That Church that one time professeth Popery and another while Prelacy being variable according to the times in which she lives that Church is not the Pillar and ground of truth But the Parishes of this Nation have one while c. Ergo and for Revel 2. 13. When you have proved the Parishes of this Nation Pergamus I will Consider of it I know no advantage I should have gotten if the word Reply Dr. B. Church had been permitted to stand instead of Parishes but rather disadvantage because a National Church is as liable if not more to exception nor can I imagine how this could have hidden the folly of my Argument its folly to pick a quarrell the Church is nothing els but the Parishes or if you will that is the Mother these the daughters the Minor proposition which you deny will appear evident enough by considering the Apostles meaning of Pillar and Ground of Truth and applying it to our Assemblies both which I will do in few words The House or Church of God is so call'd in respect of the profession and maintenance of the true Religion of God which it both supporteth as a Pillar and maketh it openly known to others as Magistrates use to hang and affix their Edicts and Proclamations on pillars or other places of strength and firmness and here consequently is declared the Office and duty of the Church in holding and publishing the Truth and defending it against all Errors Contradictions and Corruptions and whatsoever Societies do this it s written upon those Societies with a Sun beam that they are the true Churches of Christ Now it s notoriously known that the Articles of Religion agreed upon Anno 1562. are published and consented to by all the See the answer of the Elders of the several Churches of New England to the ninth Question p. 26. and Church Covenant p. 40. Ministers endowed in every Congregation of this Nation with the silent consent also of the People and subscription of the hands of the chief of them wherein they do acknowledge no rule of Faith or Manners but the holy Scriptures no divine worship but to God only no Mediation nor Salvation but in Christ only no Conversion by Mans free will but by Gods free grace no Justification but by Faith no perfection nor merit of works with all other necessary and saving truths upon which the Church is grounded and built and which also it holdeth forth and maintaineth This alone abundantly evinceth that the Parishes of this Nation are the Pillar and ground of Truth Besides these truths are daily in most Congregations faithfully opened and applyed and whatsoever is contrary thereunto on the right hand or left convincingly confuted our Parishes therefore keeping Gods Records faithfully are his Registers and consequently his true Churches Your declaiming against the inclinableness of our People to alter with their Governors might have been spared well knowing it was the practice of the Church of Israel to do so and the Churches of Galatia how soon were they removed from him that called them into the Grace of Christ unto another Gospell to the admiration of the Apostle Galat. 1. 6. And therefore it needs be no marvell if our people so easily change from one Church-Goverment to another which they may do without prejudice to fundamental verity which though the Galathians overthrew yet they remained true Churches If you read the Epistle of Christ to Pergamus understandingly and compare our Church with that you will find that we are not worse and wherein any in that Church were praise-worthy for doing or suffering you may find some in ours not short of them From our practice agreeing with the practice of the Primitive Arg. 7. Dr. B. Apostolical Churches Those Societies that continue stedfast in the Apostles doctrine and fellowship and breaking of bread and in Prayer are true Churches Acts 2. 42. but so do ours Ergo. I deny your Minor and the reason why we separate from you is upon Answ J. O. that ground you have added neither Scripture nor Reason to prove your Minor but have left it destitute of all proof you could hardly have brought a Scripture in all the Bible which in every thing both in doctrine and practice makes so directly against you as this that you have brought for you For first your doctrine is contrary secondly so is your practice for doctrine first after that Peter had preacht the Lord Christ to these men it working upon their hearts ver 37. they cryed out What shall we do the doctrine of the Apostle to them ver 38. is Repent and be Baptized and so they were ver 41. they were the same day added to the Church but you both Ministers and People go directly contrary first Baptize them at three or four dayes old and so make them members of your Church and perhaps twenty or forty years after preach Repentance just contrary to the Apostles doctrine and Gods examples 1 King 6. 7. Ephes 2. 21 22. 1 Pet. 2. 5. First you take into your house unhued stones and unsquared timber and twenty or forty years after fall to squaring them for the building Now for your practice in your fellowship the powerfull operation of the Gospell of Jesus Christ after it had workt them from the world and from themselves and one into another in the unity of the Spirit as one man it is said ver 44 45. and all that believed were together had all things common and sold their possessions c. And chap. 4. 32 34 35. and the multitude of believers were of one heart and one soul neither said any of them that ought that he possessed was

his own c. But your fellowship is directly contrary one sortfed with all delicious fare cloathed with gorgeous Apparell and pride abominable and the other sort one company working and toyling more than they be well able and glad if they may be set on work and all to get a few cloathes and food and yet cannot get enough to satisfie they being tormented by the oppression of the rich that as the Lord saith their faces are ground and their burdens are almost insupportable the other sort begging from door to door which is miserable to see in that Nation where many vainely spend so much in one hour as would relieve many a poor creature ready to perish with cold and famisht with hunger all which is evident by lamentable experience and yet you have the boldness to compare your Parishes with those in Acts 2. betwixt which there is as much difference as betwixt light and darkness Those that continue not in the Apostles doctrine and fellowship c. are no true Churches but the Parishes of this Nation continue ●ot c. Ergo they are not true Churches the Major is your own by the rule of contraries the Minor is Evident by that which hath been said You render us a reason of your separation from us which whether it will hold when God shall ask you Who hath required this Reply Dr. B. at your hands you have just reason to question groundless separation and Church-division being as great a sin as Adultery or Theft Our Blessed Saviour and his Disciples separated not from Assemblies whose teachers and members were worse than ours read Matth. 23. nor can you find any command or example in all the Scripture for separating from Societies that hold all fundamental Truths and join together in Gods true worship as ours do The doctrine and practice of the Apostles in Baptizing Jews or Heathens brought within the Pale of the Church professing their Faith and Repentance and desiring to be sealed with this Sacrament for the strengthening of their Souls in this Faith as these here did is the doctrine of our Churches our doctrine and practice of Baptizing Infants of Believers is so far from being directly Contrary to the doctrine of the Apostles there being neither here nor any where els any word of theirs forbidding to baptize Infants as that there is very cleer warrant in this very place to Baptize such Infants For the Apostle makes it his Argument to them to be willing to receive Baptism because the promise is made to them and their Children and to as many as the Lord our God shall call and to their Children this must needs be understood or els the promise to Believing Gentiles is not of the same Latitude as it is to Believing Jews I presume you will acknowledge that the Covenant of Grace is as fair and full to these Now if the Promise be made to Believers and their Children the Command must reach not only to them but to their Children also running thus be Baptized you and your Children for the promise is made to you and your Children if otherwise this that w●s intended to be an effectual motive would have been an effectual disswasive and deterred Parents from accepting Baptism and renouncing Circumcision to which initial sign their Infant-Children till now had right having privilege of Church Membership as well as Parents which by this acceptance they must lose and be cast into a condition like that of Infidels Which losse to the Church by Christs coming seemes to be no less than of denial of his coming in the flesh Moreover the Apostles practice in Baptizing whole families a part whereof and the greatest part for the most part Children are immediatly upon the parents believing is a warrantable pattern for the practice of our Churches Your objection that there is no express mention of Infants Baptized in those families notwithstanding your selves will take liberty to believe that many were Baptized of whose Baptism there is no mention made in Scripture the twelve Apostles for instance nor is it said there were wives or servants in those families You do not well to call all Infants unhued and unsquared Timber have you never read what the Scripture saith of Infant-Children born within the bosome of the Church Esay 65. 20. The Child shall by an hundred years old that is he shall be as well instructed by Gods inward teaching according to that promise Esae 53. 14. As if he had lived under the Churches teaching an hundred years And if some Children be timber hued and squared for the Kingdom of Glory Mark 10 14 why should it be thought a thing incredible with you that they be squareable for the Kingdom of Grace Moreover that place in 1 Cor. 10. 1 2. If duely considered more than probably proves that it was an Apostolical practice to Baptize Infants born within the Church if not it will be difficult to make the Apostles Comparison of the two Churches and their Sacraments and subjects thereof to run parallell Your pleading for Anabaptistical Community I think not worth replying to as neither your declaming against the hardheartedness of some of our rich members you will find as bad or worse among the members of the Churches Apostolical read 1 Cor. 11. 21 22. and Jam. 2. and 5. We are not therefore overbold to compare our doctrine and fellowship with the Primitive degrees of Purity in doctrine and practice we easily yield them above us But the same Truth we hold fast and will not let it go we teach no other doctrine have fellowship in no other worship Ergo we are true Churches Those Christian Societies that have the true Ministry of Christ Arg. 8. Dr. B. set over them for their Pastors and Spiritual Rulers are true Churches Ephes 4. 11 12. But so have the Parishes of England Ergo. That the Ministers of England are true Ministers appeares by their ordination which was by laying on of the hands of the Presbytery Secondly by their abilities both 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 2 Tim. 2. 15. Galat. 2. 14. Thirdly by Gods blessing on their endeavours and labours 2 Cor. 3. 1. I deny the Minor in the proof whereof you forget your self you should Answ I. O. say thus that the Parishes of this Nation have a true Ministry of Christ set over them and then the question is Who set them you say it appeares first by their Ordination c. I answer your Ordination is false and that upon a double account and seeing you either will not or cannot prove it true but onely barely affirm without proof I will give you the grounds of my deniall First the Presbytery by which you were ordained which is the Bishops now it is undeniable they had their Ordination from the Pope and I am sure he had his from the Devill Now the Devill ordaining the Pope the Pope the Bishops the Bishops you how can you be true Ministers by

And when I see it I will return you an answer To the second viz. that we rob Gods people of their right c. I answer The expression Rob is as unsuitable as untrue for we take not away that in the night nor secretly in the day that which we are afraid to be taken with in the light but what we withhold we proclame and give nay invite all to bring in their evidence That if they for Infants can lay just claim thereunto they shall be admitted Sir take heed you pronounce not sentence of Condemnation against your selves for I think was it material it might easily be made appear that you rob Goa's people of their right and that in many things But that we do not rob Goa's people of their right you shall be witness and your self shall answer your self and that may the soonest give your self and others satisfact on thus from the notation of the word Church which signifies you say argument thirteen a company called out from the world unto Christ come together upon that call c. Whence I thus reason If the word Church signifie such a company so call'd so come then it 's impossible for such who were never thus called thus come neither yet are in a capacity to be of that company For words significant aris● from the nature of the thing to which they are applied and where the answering of the signification of a word is not to be found there that word is improperly applied as I think all men will grant and Scripture example is full but the word Church so signifies This is your own Ergo. Now that Infants are not called out of the world by the Word come together upon that call c. is undeniable Therefore Infants are not of that Company Thus if to deny Infants Church-membership be rebery it 's the Notation of the Word Church and your thirteenth Argument that is the theef Sir you must either repeal this thirteenth Argument or it will utterly repeal Infants Church-membership and put you to prove where and when it was done and for Acts the 2. and Romans 11. where you say it 's Confirmed I answer When you have reconciled this thirteenth Argument and Infant-Church-membership together and drawn your Arguments from Acts 2. Rom. 11. to prove it I will return you an answer And for your third reason where you say we want a true form c. I answer we make not an express Covenant the form of a visible Church as you well know therefore this makes nothing against us we may be true Churches for all that if what you say be true Either our Congregations are true Churches or there were none Arg. 12. Dr. B. since Christ and the Apostles for what Churches can be shewed that have come neerer the rule in respect of Doctrine and for Government the Jus divinum regiminis Ecclesiastici And Provincial vindication have sufficiently evinced the Presbyterian government to lay just claim to divine Right But the latter is false for the gates of Hell never did never shall prevail against the Church 1. To say that if you be not true Churches there have been none Answ J. O. since Christ c. is confidently to dictat and Magisterially to set down without the least colour of proof that which is so principal a Question betwixt us for we have abundantly offered to make good that we come neerer the rule first in Respect of doctrine than you and for government which you say is sufficiently evinced in the Jus Divinum c. I shall pay you with your own coyn and that may soonest satisfie thus your Presbyterian government hath been abundantly confuted and the Independ●●cy of Churches in Relation to a sufficiency in herself for the performance of all the Ordinances of Christ by the learned Mr. Hooker in his survey of Church discipline Secondly I deny that the latter is false by vertue of that Scripture if you understand it of the visible Church which is only to your purpose for the gates of Hell may nay hath prevailed yea overcome the visible Church as the Revelations abundantly makes manifest Sir I wonder you have not so much foresight as to see how upon your own * He that can make it appear that this place is meant of the visible Church and that which is a true Church shall alwaies visibly appear will do the Pope essential service he no doubt will return him many thanks he will undeniably prove Rome a true Church because Rome once only visibly appeared keeping down all others principles your own arguments wound your self For where was the visibility of your Presbyterian Church in the midst of Popery except you will say Rome was it where is the line of your succession I doubt it is utterly lost and so upon your own interpretation of Scripture you prove your selves false Churches From the notation of the word Church which signifies a Company Arg. 13. Dr. B. called out of the world unto Christ by the word come together upon that call all are called externally and some effectually This Argument fi●rcely fights against nay cuts the throat of the Answ I. O. Causes it should defend for the word Church signifying such a Company so called so come doth utterly exclude all not so called so come being of that Company now beyond dispute it is that the generality of People in the Parishes of this Nation were never visibly called out of the world c. Therefore not possibly to be concluded of that Company I had alwaies thought there had been a World in England what are all the Carnal wicked covetous persons in the Parishes of this Nation called out from the world to Christ if they have not as any man that hath but the least spark of godliness may easily see how dare you apply this notation of the word to them if this be not to sow Pillows under all Arm-holds making them trust in living words saying the Temple of the Lord the Temple of the Lord so you the Church Church-Members faithful people c. I am much mistaken Sir take beed lest that fall upon you spoken of Pro. 17. 15. all you say called externally some effectually Answer if by external call you mean a bare call by the Preaching of the word without a visible submission thereunto you are contrary to your self which is not of a verbal call simply but of a calling O●t and a comming thereupon unto Christ if you say they are visibly called out c. nothing can be spoken more falsly common sense proves the contrary and what the effectual calling of some is to prove that all are externally called out according to the notation of the word is to me a Paradox Our Churches are in Covenant with God Ergo They are true Churches the consequence is evident from Psal 50. 5. where the Arg. 14. D. B. Prophet implies that by being in Covenant with God Men are really a Church

vertur of that Call and yet no man can communicate that to any other that he hath not himself and the Devill never being Authorized by Christ to ordain Ministers and yet you having no other must needs we think be false Secondly for manner of entrance that Church that is in want of a Minister is to elect such a man as she shall judge sit which man thus chosen is to be solemnly ordained by the approbation of the body for whom he is to officiate And you were made Ministers such as you are not only by them whom Christ never authorized to ordain but also before ever you knew what flock to Minister to which is a ridiculous foolery seeing Pastor and Flock are relates the one gives being and the essential Constituting Causes to the other and then get to the patron or to those in whose power it was to establish you and make the place sure and then intruding your selves into the service of those demanding nay forcing wages from those that never set you at work whereby we judge you false Ministers The other is this A society of believers as yet no Church in order assembled together in the Name of Christ to reassume an Ordinance of Christ appoint one man for the performance of the work not as a Pastor but as a man enabled by God to be instrumental in the discovery of this Truth Now whether there be the like reason upon the same principles to judge of the one as the other I leave it to be considered And which of these two is the rightlyest authorized let all men judge And how the holding that an unbaptized person in case of necessity one rightly Baptized not to be found might Baptize will prove us Schismaticks in separating from a true Ministery is to me a riddle the unfolding of which belongs to the Learning of him that doth assert it Hence your first scruple may be removed viz. how the first Baptizer had his Call being one who never did Baptize himself nor yet rested contented with his Infant-Baptism neither yet sent of God to begin a new Institution as John the Baptist was but one enlightned to discover that old yet new appearing institution unto us For if what you say was truth as it is not there having been some in all ages bearing testimony to this Truth viz. That this way was not till 1500. years after there was no need of beginning a new Institution for that Matth. 28. 18 19. is to last to the end of the world whether men obey it once in a thousand yeares or not now whereas you demand by what authority this first man Baptized seeing to Baptize is an act of office c. And no man can be a lawfull Administrator unless Elected c. I Answer by what Authority I have already shewed and for Baptizing to be an act of office and so not not to be performed but by officers I deny And the Scripture you bring to prove it Matth. 28. 18 19. proves the plain contrary as is evident for such as had received Abilities from Christ whereby they were enabled to Convert a soul to Christ might Baptize such a person so Converted The Commission holds alike for both Disciple and Baptizer c. Now this Commission though it was given to the Apostles it was not given to them as Apostles but as Disciples and in them to all others so gifted to the end of the world as your self well know and undeniable it is that they were to Preach and Baptize by vertue of Gift and not by vertue of Office seeing these men were such as were never elected by any Churches to the Pastoral charge for that was not Congruent to their Comission the Election of the people tying to the Church by whom they were elected and the Comission sending them forth to all the word to prepare matter for the Church whence it is evident that such who can disciple men to Christ may Baptize such so discipled disciple and baptize c. but some that are not Ministers in office can do that Ergo. The proposition is evident from the words the Assumption I suppose no man will deny except it be some who do endeavor to Monopolize Preaching only to themselves and stop the mouthes of all others though never so eminently gifted except they have served a prentiship to the same trade that they have done or els come under their Bishopping by laying on of their hands that so they may ty them to preach after their fashion which opinion is so grosse that I am loth to spend time in confutation Yet seeing though you dare not deny but that all who have received gifts whereby they are enabled to preach may yet deny that they may publickly preach and this preaching Matth. 28. is a publick preaching I shall give you an Argument or two to prove that If there be tolleration given by God to all who have received the gift of Prophecie to Prophesie in the Church Then there is tolleration given by God to all who have received the gift of Prophecy to Prophesy publickly but the former is true 1 Cor. 14 31. Therefore the latter This whole argument you have granted to be true only you say that Prophecy was extraordinary but that it was not I thus evince That Prophety is there meant that came within trial and Judgment but extraordinary Prophecy did not so therefore that 's not meant To this you Reply that extraordinary Prophets doctrine did Acts 17. 11. to which I answer That Judgment spoken of in the 14. of Cor. was such a judgment as presupposed the Prophets might err but this searching of the Bereans to see if the things Paul spake were so was no such thing Therefore nothing to the purpose it only shewed that Paul preaching and alleging Scriptures as his manner was thus and thus it is written and yet citing neither Chapter nor ver●e That they did seek to see if it was as he said and did in no wayes presuppose that Paul was liable to err in what he preacht Secondly That Prophecie in that place that men that are gifted are tolerated That Prophecie in that place women though gifted are forbidden but extraordinary Prophecy women are not forbidden Ergo. The Minor viz. that women extraordinary gifted may deliver their Prophecy in any place I think no man will deny And for the Major viz That the same manner of Prophecy that the gifted disciples were tolerated in verse 31. is the same that women are forbidden verse 34. is evident to all that will Consult the scope of that place Secondly we have an example in Scripture of such men preaching See also Acts 18. 28. If it be objected Apollos was an officer 1 Cor. 1. 12. Answer first It is not probable it was the same man Secondly If it was the consequence is bad to say Apollos was an officer when Paul wrote this Epistle therefore he was one when he preacht in the 18 of Acts knowing