A Serious DIALOGUE BETWIXT A Church-Man AND A QUAKER LONDON Printed for Brab Aylmer at the Three Pigeons against the Royal Exchange in Cornhil 1699. Some Books lately Writ by G. Keith and Sold by Brab Aylmer at the Three Pigeons in Cornhil AN Exact Narrative of the Proceedings at Turners-Hall the 11th of the Month called June 1696. Together with the Disputes and Speeches there between G. Keith and other Quakers differing from him in some Religious Principles in Quarto Price 12 d. A second Narrative of the Proceedings at Turners-Hall the 29th of the Month called April 1697. Quarto Price 6 d. A third Narrative of the Proceedings c. Quarto Price 12 d. His Explications and Retractations of divers Passages in his former Books c. Quarto Price 1 s 6 d. His Sermon Preach'd on the Publick Day of Thanksgiving April 16th 1696. Price 6 d. A Christian Catechism for the Instruction of Youth and others to whom it may be useful in the Grounds of the Christian Religion c. 80. Price 12 d. bound A short Christian Catechism for the Instruction of Children c. Price 3 d. Stitch'd The Arguments of the Quakers against Baptism and the Supper Examined and Refuted c. in Quarto Price is 6 d. A Serious DIALOGUE Betwixt a Church-Man and a Quaker Church-Man WELL met It is a most scandalous Reflection ye cast on our Church as I find in a late Dialogue writ by one of your Friends called A Sober Dialogue betwixt a Scoteh Presbyterian a London Church-Man and a real Quaker for you to say ye are of the same Faith with us And ye grosly pervert a Passage in our Common Prayer to Prove our Agreement with you as because we pray that God would inspire us with his Holy Spirit c. that therefore the Inspirations we pray for are your Light within that is common to you and all Mankind and which ye say is sufficient to your and all Mens Salvation without any thing else than which nothing can be more contrary to the Doctrine of our Church as appears by the Thirty Nine Articles of our Church her Homilies and whole Liturgy All which hold forth Jesus Christ of Nazareth as he is in Heaven in our Nature to the great object of Faith for Remission of Sin and Eternal Salvation and also to be the great Object of Adoration together with the Father and the Holy Ghost Quaker I confess there is a great Confusion among us about our Faith especially ever since Fr. Bugg T. C. and G. Keith has Printed so many large and full Quotations out of our Friends Books both ancient and late to shew our disagreement with the Doctrine not only of your Church but with the Doctrine of all Christian Societies in the whole VVorld and if they are to be believed with the Doctrine of the Holy Scriptures and none of all our Opposers has done us a greater diskindness to expose us to the World than he whom W. P. calls the Rattle-Snake Man in his Snake in the Grass that has been so generally well liked that it hath had three Impressions and in his Satan disrobed that hath had two Church-man Why should these Books make such Confusion among you You had wont to glory of your Vnity but where Confusion is Vnity surely is not Quaker Before these mischievous Books came forth we all generally agreed as we thought that the Fundamental Principle of Truth was but one and that one was the Light in every Man's Conscience that taught us and all Men that there was a great God Almighty that created all things and that our whole Duty lay within the compass of a few things viz. to love God trust in him pray to him and give him Thanks for our Creation and Preservation and daily Mercies and to live soberly and justly in this World doing as we would be done by and if we practiced these few things that should serve us for Religion and by our Obedience to the Light in our Consciences which taught us these few things we did believe we should be happy after Death and our Souls should enjoy God Eternally though the Body that lyeth down in the Grave being Elementary and Earthly finally perisheth as all other Elementary and Earthly Bodies do But since the publishing of those mischievous Books many of our Friends both in City and Country begin to think that Christ as he is both God and Man without them is a necessary Object of their Faith for Remission of Sin as he dyed and as his Blood was shed and as he rose again and ascended into Heaven in our Nature as they say and as he is now in Heaven Making Intercession for Men. And G. K. first in Pensilvania and since here having with his Meetings at Turners-Hall and his three Narratives made such a heavy Charge against us particularly against G. W. and W. P. wherein he has had Associates Fr. Bugg Th. Crisp and the Author of the Snake that we have no other Religion but Deism This hath occasioned G. W. and W. P. to give forth several new Creeds wherein they have changed both the matter and manner of their Doctrine from what it formerly was making the World believe they hold all the Articles of the Apostles Creed as other Christians do and that they differ not in the main from the Church of England in Doctrine yea scarcely at all setting aside some School-Terms in matter of Doctrine Church-man What is your sense upon the whole matter and particularly as to these new Creeds Quaker First to the whole matter If Christ as without us and as as some call him God-Man beheld forth to be the necessary Object of Faith for Eternal Salvation it quite overturns our whole Fabrick as W. P. I think very properly charged G. K. at Ratcliffe Meeting that he did indeavour to pluck up the Testimony of Truth by the Roots by preaching the necessity of Faith in Christ as without us This sort of Doctrine doth certainly undo all that we have been building as in respect of our Christianity which we thought was all one with Morality but now G. K. and his Associates tell us That Morality at best is but a part of Christianity and if it is not built on the Faith of Christ God-Man without us it is not so much as a part of it but pure Heathenism and Deism But I cannot be of that mind That Christ considered as God-Man without us in the necessary Object of our Faith for Salvation For if this be granted many great and sad Consequences will necessary follow that Concession that will bring great Trouble upon us And as to these new Creeds the Authors of them had done better to have let them alone and not published them for our Friends have oft declared against making Creeds and Confessions of Faith as hurtful and I believe they will cause great breaches amongst us Church-man Why so Quaker Because it is apparent that our chief Leaders that give out
not always to be understood literally Church-man At this rate I fear ye believe scarcely one Article of our Creed Do ye believe that the same Body of Jesus that was buried rose again and ascended into Heaven Quaker We believe that Jesus rose again but not that he rose in the same Body or that he ascended in the same Body for he rose in a Spiritual Body that came in the doors being shut as the Disciples were met together But the Body that did hang on the Cross and was buried was a Carnal or Natural Body and Christ's Body is Heavenly and Spiritual and is in us for we eat it as W. P. hath argued and nobly defended our ancient Friend G. P. but that was not the Carnal Body that was crucified and buried and G. W. in his Light and Life hath taught us that an Earthly Body and a Heavenly Body cannot be the same Substance and W. P. hath taught us in his Answer to J. Faldo that to say a Natural Body can be changed to a Spiritual Body and yet be the same in Substance is to out-do the absurd Doctrine of Transubstantiation Church-man Do ye believe that other Article of our Creed that Christ will come in a Bodily Existence without us as the Son of Mary to judge the quick and the dead Quaker We cannot believe any such Carnal Notion for that supposeth that Christ is in Heaven as in a local place without us and has our true Nature in Heaven but Ed. Burr our great Prophet hath taught us that it is Blasphemy to say that Christ is in Heaven in our Nature also it contradicts G. W. Church-man Do ye believe that Article of our Creed the forgiveness of Sins Quaker We do not believe it as ye state it and according to your Notion of it Church-man Why What is our Notion of it that ye do not believe it Quaker Ye tell us God forgives you your Sins upon the account of Christ's having paid the Debt of your Sins and having satisfied the Justice of God for them but we have no such Belief for W. Pen hath taught us that a Debt cannot be both paid and freely forgiven and this he saith doth totally exclude Satisfaction And you tell us that we must not only repent but believe in the Man Christ without us and that such a Faith is absolutely necessary to our forgiveness This we altogether deny for this would contradict our ancient Faith That the Light within us in sufficient to Salvation without any thing else Ye are so ignorant as not to distinguish betwixt a Historical Faith and a Saving Faith The Historical Faith is your Faith in a Christ without you that dyed at Jerusalem above Sixteen Hundred Years past but the Saving Faith is in the Power of God within us the Light and Life and that is the true and proper Christ Besides your Doctrine of Remission of Sins teacheth you to pray for a daily forgiveness because ye sin daily so that in your Common-Prayer from Seven to Seventy ye are still praying God be merciful to us miserable Sinners as W. P. hath well observed We neither need nor expect such a forgiveness and therefore we are not taught so to pray nor do we use such Prayers for our selves as Strangers that frequent our Publick Meetings can sufficiently inform thee Church-man Do ye own the Resurrection of the Body that dyeth and that the deceased Saints look for the Resurrection of their Bodies Quaker Nay for if the deceased Saints look for any such Resurrection as W. P. hath taught us it would follow they were in some Purgatory for the time and he hath also taught us that a Natural Body and a Spiritual Body are two Bodies Church-man I am greatly amazed I did not think that ye did so universally disbelieve our Creed as I find ye do for I cannot understand that ye believe any one Article of it as stated by us and all Orthodox Christians throughout the whole World Quaker What talks thou to me of your Orthodox Christians we deny you to be Christians but in Name But suppose we believed all your twelve Articles as stated by you what would that Faith profit us How many of them think ye necessary to our Salvation to be believed by us Church-man I think all of them very necessary Quaker And I think scarce any of them as stated by you to be necessary Church-man Pray why Quaker Nothing is necessary to be believed by us to our Salvation but what the Light within us which is the same in every Man teacheth us to believe but there is scarce one of your twelve Articles that our Light within us teacheth us to believe for if it did it would teach our Jewish and Mahometan Brethren and many other pious Gentiles and excellent Moral Livers these Articles of your Creed but this it doth Not. Church-man Do ye then take all Just and Moral Men Jews and Mahometans that profess the same Light within and obey its dictates to be your Christian Brethren Quaker Yea we do for W. P. hath taught us in his Address to Protestants that it is uncharitable to exclude any meer just Man from our Society and there are many just Men among them Church-man But why think ye that to take Christ God-Man without you to be the Object of your Faith together with the Light within you will bring any great inconveniences and sad inferences and consequences upon you Quaker Yea Time would fail to number them all I will mention some of them to thee First as I told thee before it quite overturns our whole Fabrick that we have been building almost these Fifty Years past and plucks up by the Roots the Testimony of ancient Friends yea and our present Testimony among our selves For Christ God-Man as they phrase it without us in Heaven in a Bodily Existence is the World 's Christ which our Friends neither think necessary nor profitable to preach for we find that the preaching of it hath not profited the Hearers and as our great Prophet Ed. Burr hath taught us the Light of Christ within is only that which is necessary to be taught for Salvation Secondly That Doctrine of a Christ God-Man without us being the necessary Object of our Faith will necessarily infer that we must set up another Rule of Faith than the Light within us to wit the Scriptures For whatever is a Ruâ—e of Faith must propose to our Minds all the things necessary to be believed and the full and compleat Object of Faith but this the Light within us doth not If Christ God-Man be the necessary Object of our Faith as he was conceived by the Holy Ghost born of a Virgin dyed rose again the third day and ascended into Heaven none of all which doth our Light within us teach us to believe but the Scripture without us by way of History teacheth some such things and this is but a Historical Belief which some of our Friends have may be
as amply as ye but many more have it not This Historical Belief we little regard for as he that hath it is not profited by it to his Salvation so he that hath it not is not hurt nor in danger for want of it Church-man But I have heard some of you call it beneficial though not absolutely necessary Quaker Some of us may call it so and perhaps think it so but I and many other faithful Friends do not think it so for it is but the Letter that kills the Flesh profits nothing it is only the Spirit that quickens Paul renounced his knowledge of Christ after the Flesh Pray what profit can be in that Faith to us that plucks up our ancient Testimony by The Roots as W. P. hath well observed Church-man I have heard some of you call the Scriptures a secondary Rule of Faith and I think I have Read it in some of your Friends Books Quaker Perhaps thou hast but all that was daubing with untempered mortar Thou shalt find no such distinction I warrant thee in any of our most ancient and most approved Friends Books If the Scripture be allowed to be a secondary Rule it teacheth nothing but what the primary Rule the Light within us and in every Man first teacheth but the Light within us and in every Man teacheth us not that Historical Faith and Doctrine thou contendest for as that Christ is God and Man in one Person having two Natures and that as such he is the Object of Faith and Worship Church-man Possibly some of your Friends that hold the Scripture to be a secondary Rule will say the Light in all Men would reveal Christ God-Man without them to be the Object of their Faith and Worship if all Men were duly faithful and obedient to it Quaker If they say or think so they are greatly mistaken How many hundreds of faithful Men have we of our Brethren both Jews and Mahometans and how many Deists have we here in England who are excellent Men for Sobriety and Justice and are obedient to the Light within them and take it for their Rule of Faith and Life and yet if ye ask them if their Light within them doth teach them any thing of a Christ without them they will plainly tell you nay Church-man But I find not that your Christian Brethren the Jews and Mahometans and your Deist Brethren here in England own or confess a Christ in them They seem as ignorant of any knowledge or Faith of a Christ within them as of a Christ without them Quaker Names of things are no wise material What if they call not Christ in them by the outward Names Christ and Jesus It is enough to their Christianity and Salvation that they inwardly feel the Power Life and Virtue of the thing it self they call it the Light within and magnifie it with other high Titles and that is sufficient Church-man Pray what other hurtful Consequences would your owning the necessity of Christ God-Man without you as the great yea and only Object of your Faith considered as your High Priest and only Atonement for the Remission of Sins bring upon you Quaker A third hurtful Consequence if this It would exceedingly lessen the number of our Christian Brethren and abridge our Charity which is now very diffusive and large as the Sand of the Sea Ye talk of your Catholick Church but our Church is more Catholick and Universal than yours The Members of your Church are only such as believe in Jesus of Nazareth and hold all or the greatest part of that ye call the Apostles Creed whereof we have already discoursed at large but the Members of our Church who are one Body with us are all just and sober Men of Jews and Mahometans and remotest Nations that own a great God Almighty and obey the Dictates of the Light within them A fourth very hurtful Consequence is That if the Doctrine of a Christ God-Man without us be received among us as the necessary Object of our Faith for Salvation it will bring in so many other things with it by necessary Consequence that we shall ere long be one with you both in Doctrine and Practice and then we shall be utterly at a loss to justifie our Separation from you yea fifthly we should be constrained to return to the outward Baptism and Supper which we have all along called Beggerly Elements and Worldly Rudiments as some that were among us lately have done and daily to pray for the Pardon of our Sins And lastly this new Scheme of Doctrine if introduced among us will not only deprive our Friends of the Ministry of their Infallibility for which they have so earnestly contended but will break our Meetings of all sorts and wonderfully divide and scatter us by the confusion of the manner of Preaching that will be among us and is begun to be among us already in divers parts to the great Grief of many sincere Souls even as the People by the Confusion of the Languages at Babylon were scattered asunder Church-man But Friend it has of late been divers times queried of your Friends whether Ja. Nayler was a Blasphemer yea or nay and I cannot get a direct Answer Pray what think you Quaker Ohno we cannot admit of a plain Answer for if we say no then the Apostate Christians will be ready to stone us If we say yea then will they prove it upon us that Geo. Fox Edw. Burrough Sol. Eccles and others of our ancient Friends were Balsphemers And thou knowest that would go down ruggedly and would not suit our present Interest Church-man Farewel I think thee for thy free Discourse and Plainness though I greatly pity thy Ignorance Quaker And I far rather pity thine Farewel POSTSCRIPT WHat the Quakers formerly objected against either G. K. his giving them a Publick Challenge to a Dispute or their accepting it being against the Magna Charta and the Fundamental Laws of the Nation is sufficiently made void by the late Practice of some of the Teachers of the Quakers who gave a Challenge to the Clergy in Norfolk or any of their Cloth to Pâ—lick Debate And suppose as they would have it â—â—derstood though very unjustly the Quakers gave not the Challenge yet they cannot deny with any shadow of Reason but that they accepted at least the Challenge given as they say by the Clergy and at the Place and Time appointed came from divers places particularly some of their Teachers came from London to ingage in that Debate Will it not therefore be great Cowardice and conviction of Guilt if G. W. and W. P. or any others concerned will neither give a Challenge to G. K. whom they charge to have wronged them nor accept of his Challenge If they will not give me a Challenge they are once more desired to accept of mine and let us agree about Time and Place Or if they will not agree about them with what colour can they blame me if I shall once more appoint Time and Place to them and prove out of their and their Friends Books owned by them that their new Creeds are utterly repugnant to the Doctrine formerly delivered in their Printed Books and that it is a manifest fallacy that their late Creed given forth at Bristol obtrudes upon the Nation viz. That the Quakers believe all the Articles of the Apostles Creed For I am ready to prove face to face before any Judicatory Ecclesiastical or Civil what is asserted in this Dialogue that they believe not truly and rightly one Article of it according to Scripture and the true universal sense of sound Christians in all Ages G. K. ADVERTISEMENT THE Principles here charged on the chief Leaders among the People called Quakers particularly G. W. and W. P. are clearly proved out of G. K's three Narratives and the late Printed Sheet called An Abstract by way of Index c. and other late Treatises published against them and can be further proved by the open and plain Confessions given frequently by some of that People