as appeareth from Aug. contra Cresconium lâ—b 2. cap. 3. and ep 48. This was one of the weapons whereby they did bâ—at the Donatists Answer The ground of separation of the Donatists was the personall vices of men Prote ∣ stants Answer not the doctrine professed in the Church For in that they agreed with the universall Church as is clear from the above mentioned ep Now we did not separat from Rome because their Popes whom they take for a patron have been Atheists Hereticks denyers of the soules immortalitie Whore mongers c. as their own writters confess in the lives of Silvester 2. Alexander 6. Iohn 22. and many moe but because ye apostatized from the Apostles doctrine and corrupted the worship miserably so these testimonies concern not us Secondly If interrupted succession make void the Ministry ye Papists have none at Ans 2. all For ye often had Anti-Popes and the Councill at Pisa deposed two Popes at once as Hereticks departing from the faith The Councill of Constance deposed Iohn 23. for denying the immortality of the soul and the resurrection Behold then your succession and the infallibility of your Popes Eugenius the fourth was deposed by the Council of Basil and all the following Popes were his successours albeit the Council judged Faelix the fifth to be Pope Yea further this place hath vaiked for many years together so that a line of immediat successours cannot be drawn by your selves Thirdly We have a lawful Ministry as Ans 3. powerful as the world affordeth honoured by the blessing of the Lord by begetting souls to himself and many can from their experience say that it hath been the power of GOD to their salvation how then can you challenge our Ministry Is not this near of kine to that old Anti-Christian question proponed to our Master by what authority dost thou these things And if personal succession had such weight as you say the Priesthood under the law had been at a great loss For the line of it was interrupted oftner then once before the coming of Christ yet he commendeth submission and obedience to them so long as they did sit in Moses chair and no further Matth. 23. 1. So that in Ministers it is the Doctrine and not the Genealogy of persons that is so much regarded Reply In your eleventh Answer you grant personal vices are not a sufficient ground Papists Reply of sepaâ—ation from the Church and say that Protestants did only separat themselves from the worship miserablie polluted and because the Roman Church had Apostatized from the Apostolick Doctrine But Sir let me ask you when the Catholick Roman Church which before your Reformation at least was a true Church Apostatized And who was a competent judge to declare her Apostacie and give you leave to separat Was â—t Scripture as according to your first rule you must say Then I ask if two or three under pretence of a Reformation may adhere to what they think to be in Scripture against the judgement of the whole Church at that time Which â—ssuredly all must grant who teach that the true Church may erre and so give the same libertie to all Sectaries which they take so boldly to themselves But albeit you say your separation was not from our personal vyces yet you impute in the by going heresie denying of the souls immortalitie whoredom to two or three of our Popes Silvester the second Alexander the sixth John the twenty two How justly we shal presently see But however this were true it could no more wrong the Popes authority in his Canonical decrees then Davids adultery or Solomons Idolatrie in penning Scripture Neither is it a great wonder that amongst 240. Popes there have been two or three evil Since even amongst twelve Apostles there was one Judas Nor do Catholicks canonize all their Popes although for these three whom ye name wicked they have 33. most famous Martyrs and Saints What ever they teach as privat doctors as it mâ—keth no law in the Church so it cannot derogat in the least to their decision and doctrine as Popes But to answer for these three what Martinus Polemius and the Magdeburgh say against Silvester the second as a Magician is known by all the learned to be meer fables imputed to him for his eminent knowledge and learning in the Mathematicks which made the ninth Age wherein he lived to call him a Magician because of its gross ignorance Alexander the sixth is also blamed for lewdness by no impartial writter And what Calvin saith lib. 4. instir against John 22. is known to be errour and lies speaking of him as Pope whatever was his opinion as a privat Doctor of the soul before the day of judgement which he disclaimed to be his at his death professing and protesting that he had never any belief but that of the Catholick Church saith John Williams lib. 11. hist cap. 19. But Hereticks speak of Popes as Rebels of Kings discontented subjects of Ministers of state and criminals of their lawful judges which no wise man will much regard Then to shew that we have not an uninterrupted succession you speak first of Anti-Popes as if they did interrupt the succession of Popes more then Usurpers the succession of Kings Secondly Of Popes deposed by Councils but you cannot instance that any lawful Pope was deposed by any general Council what ever Thirdly You say the See of Rome hath vaiked for many years To which I answer as Kings die not so neither Popes as it doth not interrupt the succession of Elective Kings that after the death of one there be long debate before the Election of another the royal power then residing in the Electours so neither interrupteth it the succession of Popes and their Election You speak nothing of your own succession because ye have none You bragge much of a powerful Ministrie but shews no call you had to the Ministrie from GOD nor his Church so we had good reason to challenge it albeit you call this an Anti-Christian question to ask at new upstarts who pretend to reforme the Church who gave you a call because the Jews had such a question to Christ But Christ John 15. 24. saith if he had not shewed himself to be the Son of GOD by his words and works which none else could do no man had been obliedged to belive him Yet ye will have us to believe you are lawful Ministers without succession or a call and that Luther and Calvin were extraordinarily sealed for Reformation without the least sign mark or miracle shewing that they were sent for that end So that in Ministers you conclude it is the Doctrine more then the Genealogie of persons which is so much regarded As if preaching of true doctrine were sufficiant to make a man a Minister without any ordination or call the Scripture expresseth another thing saying how shal they preach except they be sent And as to seek true successsion of Bishops and Pastours in
the Church from the Apostles and their successours were to seek their Genealogy and Birth Such answers are made to deceive the ignorants and to let any rational man know ye have no lawful successsion at all however ye intrude your selves into the Ministrie upon pretence of doctrine as all phanâ—ticks and sectaries do Duply Here is multum scribere and a rabble of ragged discourse to smal purpose Prote ∣ stants Duply passing from Succession which was the question to a call which was formerly answered In the first part how poorly plaister you over the crimes of your three Popes by giving Calvin and the Magdeburgenses and the ages wherein they lived the lie And is this all your vindication of them That it may appear this covering to be too narrow for so foule faults not only have Calvin and the Magdeburgenses said so but Platina Bâ—râ—nius Sigonius c. Are these also lyars These are not authors like Bolsecus the Apostate but such as ye will not deny to be credible witnesses Silvester the 2. lived in the eleventh Centurie and not in the ninth as ye mistake Once he was called Gerbert and studied the Mathematicks saith Onuphrius then turned a consulter with the Devil saith Platina for instance this is brought that he enquired curiously how long he would enjoy the Papacy And the response he received was till he laid Masse in Jerusalem Within four years thereafter he was saying Masse in the corner of the Roâ—d-Church which is called Jerusalem and asking how the Chappel was called it was answered by some Jerusalem Then he knew that his death was near and becoming to be sad he confessed his sins before many witnesses whom he exhorted to bewarre of ambition and commerce with the Devil Some say that he desired his body to be cutted and layd on a cart c. This his tragedie is recorded also by Polid. Virg. de invent rerum lib. 5. Nauclerus vol. 2. gener 34. If these be your Matheticks I will learne none of them So it is sure by testimony of your own that Silvester was a Magician Next ye say that John 23. your Pope is wronged by Calvin for saying that he denyed the immortality of the soul and ye alleadgâ— what ever was his opinion as a privat Doctor of the soul before the day of judgement yet that he recanted his errour and died in the faith of the Church If Calvin wronge him Bell. lib. 4. de Pontif. wrongeth him also for he saith the Cardinals resisted him in this gross tenet and doth disput whither it was heresie seeing it was not defyned in a Council Nauclerus saith that many Divines hold this Pope to be an heretick And his successor Benedict did publickly condemne him and it Erasmus in his preface to the 5. book of Irenaeus saith that he laboured to propagat this heresie in France and being challenged was compelled to recant which he did coldly saith Nauclerus Had â—oâ— Calvin then reason to say that this Pope was heretical Otherwise why was he put to recantation Thirldy Ye say that Alexander the 6. was blamed by no impartial writter Was not Guicâ—ardine †Guice lib. 1. impartial What think ye of Phil. de Comin †Phil. de Bello Neap. was he partial also They give us this relation that he came by bribes to the chair And when Charles the 8. intended warre against the Turke the Pope advertised Bajazet and promised for a suÌ„me of money to make a stop to the expedition which the Turke undertook to pay Was not this a holy Father Further Onuphrius telleth that he was much given to whoredom and did beget four sons and two daughters whom he avouched His familie was stained with incest So that a Poet in these times did write this Epitaphe on his daughter Hoc jacet in tumulo Lucretia nomine sed re Thais Alexandri filia nupta â—urus His death was tragical for having prepared a bottel of poysoned wine for some whom he invited to dinner was poysoned therewith by the ignorance of his Cup-bearer and fell into the ditch which he prepared for others his candle was thus put out and he left an unsavoury snuffe behinde him as his Epitaphe witnesseth written by Ia. Sannazarius who when he hath mentioned his many faults into which pudle I love not to raike shutteth up all with this I nunc Nerones vel Caligulas nomina Turpes vel Heliogabulos Hoc sat viator reliqua non sinit pudor Tu suspicare ambula Then you reflect upon the society of the Apostles where there was one Judas But when he fell did he not cease to be an Apostle and fall from his Ministrie But your Popes continued such till their death infallible and they erred as men but not as Popes This could not be said of Iudas though once an Apostle They are liker to Iudas then any of the rest of the Apostles But to make such a head of Christs Church upon Earth is a strange paradox O but ye say David and Solomon fell yet were pen-men of holy Scripture Ans They penned no Scripture while in that state I hold the Negative you are bound to prove the Affirmative but will never do it Their repentance was more then ordinar witness Psal 51. and the book of Ecclesiastes O if your Popes had a grain weight of their repentance soon would we hear other language from them and you Then you say that Hereticks speak evil of your Popes as criminal persons do of a judge Was Platina a criminal person or heretick and yet he marketh eminent viceâ— in more then 33. Popes Read him and resent your expressions or refute him as ye do Calvin with a broad lie and no more You put us to it to tell the time when Rome became Idolatrous and vitious in the worship c. Which was the ground of our separation This belongeth to the former question Yet to this I say with reverend and learned Bishop Usher Rome was not built in a day nor the great dung-hill of errors which now we see raised in it in an age therefore it is a vain demand Secondly There be a difference betwixt open Heresies which oppose the foundation Prote ∣ stants Duply 2 and Apostacie which the Spirit hath evidently foretold should be brought in by these who speak lies in hypocrisie 1. Tim. 4. 1. 2. The impiety of the one is notorious the other mysterious as the Apostle reâ—â—â—eth it 2. Thess 2. 7. they who watched against the one might sleep while the seeds of the other were in sowing or peradventure might have a finger in bringing in this Trojan-horse under the name of devotion Thirdly Albeit we cannot â—ell day place when and where errours did at first beginne yet that will not make errour truth The Dup 3. Sâ—ddueces taught their was no Resurrection nor Angels can any man tell under what High Priest this errour was broached Shal it be a truth for that So ye have damnable
A VINDICATION OF THE REFORMED RELIGION From the Reflections of a ROMANIST Written for Information of all who will receive the Truth in Love By WILLIAM RAIT Minister of the Gospel at DUNDIE 2 Cor. 13. 8. We can do nothing against the Truth but for the Truth Cyprianus ad Pompeium epist 74. Quae ista obstinatio est quave praesumptio humanam traditionem divinae dispositioni anteponere net animadvertere indignari irasci Deam quoties divina pracepta soluit praeterit humana traditio Sine causa colunt me mandata doctrinas hominum docentes ABERDENE Printed by IOHN FORBES Younger Printer to the Town andVniversitie dwelling on the Mercat-place 1671. To the truly Honorable and really Religious The Laird of HALGREEN Elder Grace and Peace be multiplied SIR The great work of a Christian in the world is to preferr Heaven to Barth the law of the Lord to the law of sin Gospell concernments to all earthly interests when the one cometh in competition wiâ—â— or opposition to the other The first fall of man as the schooâ— termeth it was Aversio a Deo and conversio ad creaturam A turning from God to the creature Then sin obtained precedencie to Grace folly to Wisdom lust to the law of God Our health and safety cometh in by recoverie and cure our victorie by a reserve therefore God sent his Son into the world with the Gospel remedy to turn us from ungodliness and worldly lusts Titus 2. 12. to wean us from the inordinate love of the substance and shaddowes of the world 1. Iohn 2. 15. to espouse our love to himself that we may be presented as a chaste Virgin to Christ 2 Cor 11. 2. For this we pray we preach we lâ—bour we make use of Ordinances and goe about every duty This is the scope and course of a Christian and whatever hindreth this design is not to be approved by him Wood hay stuble is not a Gospel cure Pure Religion and undefiled can only better the heart mortifie corruption subdue the body of death subject the whole man to the soveraignety of Iesus Christ mend the world and make men live holily righteously and soberly When this salve was rightly applyed in the primitive Church O how wonderfully did the Lord bless the cure and proved the medicine to be good by great successe How were men bound to their duty by the awe and love of GOD on their hearts that the very Heathens and Iewes â—â—eto amused and forced to give testimony to the doctrine that it was of GOD. But when men afterwards did beginne to mixe the wine with water and handle the word of GOD deceitfully They then became lovers of pleasure more then lovers of GOD then fell they in dotage with the pompe and pride of the world Which disease did break forth notoriously first at Rome thence it spread and infected many Churches Vrbs rea stagitiies urbs leâ—â—i causa putanda es Vrbs fera Tibrinae cui famulantur aquae As heathen Rome usurped dominion so Rome now being animated by the Pope and his Complices taking advantage by the division of Princes and encreasing her wealth by their wrack like some who live near the Sea as if there had been no law of Christ to deny our selves take up our cross and follow him turned the Gospel-simâ—â—â—citiâ— into state-policy and the Ppoe degenerating from the â—hristian carriage of primitive fathers sought secular greatness chiefly put on a triple Crown followed the pompe of the world And all this is done under the name of Christ pretence of Religion and in ordine ad spiritualia which maketh the sin more sinful and their way irreconcilable with the dogâ—atick saith of a Christian who believeth the Scripture The Church of Rome was once famous for Gospel profession Her saith was spoken of through all the world in Tertullians time who lived in the second centurie Rome hath this character from him lib de praescript adversus Haereticoâ— Felix Râ—mâ— cui totam doctrinam Apostoli cum sanguine suo profuderunt legem Prophetas cum Evangelicis Apostolicis literis miscet inde potat fidem eam aqua signat Spiritu Sancta vestil Eucharistia pascit martyrio exhortatur adversus hauc institutionem nominem recipit Happie Rome to whom the Apostles poured forth their doctrine with their blood who mixeth Law and Gospel together and drinketh in saith that way taketh on the Baptismal seal thus cloatheth her self with the graces of the Holy Ghost feedeth by the Sacrament of the Supper confirmeth the doctrine by martyrdome and receiveth none but on thâ—se termes Quantum mutatur O how great an alteration is there Rome is not like that which is was once For then they were made martyrs for the faith now they make martyrs for the same faith then they had pure ordirances now they pollute them all with superstition and humane inventions Bernard lib. 4. de consid ad Eugen. Invisi Terrae Coelo impii in Deum temtrarii in sancta seditiosi ad seiuvicem simplicissimi dissimulatores malignissimi proditores quos nominem amantes nemo amat c. The pâ—imitive Fathers studied modelty humility and Gospel carriage Cornelius to Cyprian in his Epistles breatheth forth much self-denyal Cyprian thaâ— holy Martyr at the Council of Carthage saith neque euim quisquoeÌ„ nostrum se Episcopum Episcoporum constituit i. e. None of us maketh himself an universal Bishop And divine Augustin writing to Hieromâ—pist 97. uttereth himself thus in multis rebâ—s Augustinus Hieronymo minor est this was Gospel like But now the Pope is the Prince of pride naming himself infallible consequently incorrigible by the same reason impeccable â—amomâ—is peccans in eo quod peccat errat Every man erreth in as much as he sinneth saith the school If our hope were in this life only and no retribution hereafter or if the Alcoran were our rule this deportment being full of carnal wisdom proclaimeth them witty politicianes But seeing the contâ—aâ— is sure by the undoubted word of GOD this their way is soâ—â—ly and it is admirable how understanding men approâ—â— their sayings This their way hath wronged Christianity highly and many sad effects have followed upon this pompous alteration of the Primitive frame First It hath turned many Italians who live near the Court of Rome voide of all true Religion and dyed them with Atheisme So that as it is reported of them in Print they will call proverbially their Idiots Christians and when they would name a fool they say he is a Christian as if Christianitie were a fable and high follie A discerning person who travelled through Italie many years ago told me that he heard some of them publicklie blaspheme Iesus Christ by words which should not be repeated and yet go unpunished This is the fruit of their state way For now it is far more like to the state of Rome noâ— the old Church of Rome Secondly It exposeth Christian
prophecies The Roman Trash may well make seeing men blind but will never make blind men see the right way Fourthly We do not deny ministeriall An. 4. helps to unlettered people for such are commanded Heb. 13. 7. and 17. provided alwayes their faith be resolved into the word of God at least interpretative virtualiter What ever means be used this milk of the Word is the authentick instrument which begetteth faith and it must be received not as the word of man albeit the treasure be in earthen vessels and the milk in a wooden pape The difference of assent betwixt the learned and the unlearned is only accidental and modal the one being more express then the other we Catechise and instruct the ignorant and require them to hear the Church and follow their guides so far as they follow Christ 1. Cor. 11. 1. we hold forth coâ—munia fidei motiva interna 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 inward testimonies the common motives of faith reasons and testimonies of old and late and what ever may help their edification but we dare not lead them from the Scripture to men neither will the interpretation of the Scripture permit us to admit of an other determiner And it may be wel enough known by them who understand these languages that these Greek and Hebrew words do thus signifie as they are translated without the help of an infallible decree of Pope or Council thereanent Without this also GODS word can discover it self to be from GOD as hath been shewed already Reason 5. Reading of the Scripture with the privat spirit and taking it up as every one Pa. Rea. 5 thinketh maketh all the controversies in Christendom daily multiplying both Heresies and sects Luther no sooner swerved from the Church and denyed her authority but as soon he broached this principle That every man might take the Bible follow that interpretation which after due diligence used he thought best whereupon preseÌ„tly did spring up an incredible number of different sects Antimonâ—ans Osiandrians Majorists Synergists c. Now hear what Luther himself said of Calvins heresie Tom. 7. fol. 380. I scarce ever read saith he of a more deformed heresie which presently in the beginning was divided into such variety of sects as so many Toads and such disagreement of opinions not one like to another You see then how the word cannot be the determiner of faith which all these sects take with you for their rule yet alone will never agree â—hem As for that you say the scripture hath Divine authority Heavenly majestie and maketh Spiritual impressions on the soul all this I grant if once a man know or believe it to be the word of GOD. Answer First All this is answered to the fourth or fifth question and should not be Pro. An. 1 brought in here yet passing the digression and informality which I hope the Reader cannot impute to me the Defender I answer to the 5. Reason the Scriptures in the Primitive Church were published â—o all this your own Azâ—â—iâ—s confesseth Iust mor. p. 1. lib 8. c. 26. â—he Scriptures in the Primitive Church were to be published throughout all Nations and therefore made common in the most famouâ— languages In Hierom and Chrysostoms dayes the ley people were exercised in reading the Scriptures Espencaeus saith Comment on Tit. 3. 2. it is manifest by the Apostles doctrine Col. 3. 16. and by the practise of the Church that the publies use of reading the scriptures was then permitted to the people The Council of Nice decreed saith Agrippa that no Chriâ—tian shoulâ—â—e without a Bible Augustin alloweth de Doct. Christi the use of scriptures to all for he saith they are not so hard but every one by his use making of them may attain to so much knowledge of them as may further him in his salvation Chrysost hom 3. de Lizaro exhorts all men and women yea Tradsmen to get Bibles Now I pray you to what purpose if they dare not search for the sense of them Secondly It is denyed that when privat Pro. An. 2 men search the Scriptures this is an act of a privat spirit †It may be privat respectupersonae which is publick rationâ— modi medii è contra for such may pray and have the spirit of grace and supplication poured forth on them according to the promise Zach. 12. 10. and none call that a privat spirit so they may interpret Scripture by Scripture and have the gift of it Hear your own Gerson primâ— part de ex doct Si aliquis non authorizatus sit excellenter in sacra scriptura eruditus plus credendum est ejus assertioni quam Papae declarationi i. e. If any not ordained be well instructed in the holy Scriptures his assertion is more to be believed then the Popes declaration Secondly Our Divines distinguish well three sorts of interpreters the first is extraordinar and miraculous 1. Cor. 12. 30. The second is ordinar and ministerial 1. Cor. 14. 32. The spirits of the Prophets are subject to the Prophets The third is of privat persons who are commanded to â—ry the spirits and are commended for so â—â—ing Aâ—t 8. 28. 29. Aâ—t 17. 11. The first kynd of interpretation is gone the two next are in use as yet but the one is subservient to the other Thirdly â—he different sects that lay claim to Scripture cannot deprive us of the priviledge to search it and make use of it Will any man approve this argument Meat and drink is abused by some therefore none should eat or drink If the matter be indifferent and subject to abuse then we are to restrain our selves of liberty in the use of that in different thing Vâ—tandum estlicituÌ„ non necessâ—riuÌ„ propter vicinitatem illiâ—â—ti Aug. de câ—v Dei lib. 15. But when it is necessar necessitate precepti medii by necessity of precept and mean who can forbid the use of a necessar mean Now it is most necessar to improve the Scriptures by reading understanding application meditation and blessed is he who doth so day and night sitting or standing Deâ—t 6. 6. It is absurd to say â—lbeit Luther and Calvin did differ in some points that he fathered the sects of Germany on Calvin who was as free of Munster malady as the man unborn and was malleus haereticorum as his learned writtings testifie aboundantly In that place cited he speaketh of the swarms of sects which were indeed monstrous like at that time but never imputed it to the use making of Scripture for then he would not have understood himself nor could he blame Calvin for it upon that account seeing it was his own tenet Now Reader stay and impartially consider the weaknes and impertinency of these 5 reasons why our faith should not be resolved into the Scriptures and determined by them For the sume of all is thus concluded The word of GOD is not wel understood by some is evil translated by others and
about matters of faith Secondly If so they be no where written in Scripture Thirdly That if they be not written they be the same which ye deliver to the people and by what authority ye press and writ them But to take this text wholly from your mis-interpretation hear Theodoret who saith that the Apostle spake not of diverse doctrines but of the same diversely delivered For first he preached to the Thessalonians and then did writ the substance of it But as where ever ye find fire in the Scripture ye make it Purgatory so where ye find tradition ye make it pari ratione yours Will ye listen to Bell. lib. 4. de verbo Dei cap. 10. and he will put all out of doubt for he granteth that all in substance were written by the Apostles which they preached to the people or were necessar to salvation Cyprian in his epist ad Pompeium admitteth not any traditions but such as may be perceived to be in the Evangels in the Epistles or Acts of the holy Apostles Therefore it is a perfect rule to all discerners say I and no more was at first asserted Your Maxime Idem est non esse non apparere holdeth in law but not in divinity For the soul is not visible yet who can deny the being of it What is more in the Reply I judge not worthy the noticeing and I am forced to make digression because of an impertinent return Is it not strange that when I called men mutable creatures and at their best state vanitie subject to clashing contradiction and that the written Word is the only infallible rule for direction that upon this tradition universal consent should be so prolixely commented on without any connexion They who follow this reflecter must resolve to deviat from tho high way Question seventh Your Church which ye Papists Quest. 7 call reformed is but of yesterday where was it before Luther Answer It is as old in its doctrinals as Prote ∣ stants Answer the Scripture therefore not of yesterday See what societie from the beginning professed the doctrine mantained there that was out Church The Romans Corinthians Ephesians Philippians Thessalonians as taught by the Apostle Paul are our Church of old so it is not new Secondly In all ages there have been and are eminent professours of that doctrine which we mantaine as is abundantly proved by Flaccus Illyricus in his Catalogue Testium veritatis and learned Dr. Usher in successione Ecclesiae reform which testimonies no Popish shaveling of what ever ordour yet could answer Thirdly where was the church of Rome as now constituted before the council of Trent Nay more was the Popes supremacy and infallibility heard of the 600 year after Christ Is not all Popish faith as such resolved into a lie viz. the infallibility of the Pope or Council which though errand untruths are the key of the Popish Religion Fourthly All the positives of the reformed Religion were mantained substantially in the Primitive church the first 300. years I speake not of changeable circumstances nor integrals but essentials and the negatives could not be there because the controversies were not then started But ye Papists have amassed a body of humane inventions gross errours contrare to scripture obtruding them under Anathema to be the established doctrine of the Church And because we of the reformed Profession will not own these and call that which is new old ye excommunicat us as Hereticks Reply In your seventh Answere you say Papists Reply your doctrine is as old as scripture and your Church as the Apostles and this is common to you with all sectaries to claime the scripture and the Church in the time of the Apostles And like to that answer of the common people we are all come of Adam and Eve But I shall let you presently see how contrar your doctrine is to that scripture and how unlike your Church is to that of the Apostles the first 300 year In the second part ye pretend that Illyricus and Doctor Usher have sufficiently shewed that there have been eminent men of your Profession in all ages and that without a Reply of any Popish shaveling of whatever ordour But Sir I am sorrie that you who are a Nazarian and not a shaveling shoule be so ill versed in books of controversie as not to have seen so many Catholick writters who demonstrat clearly that of all these eminent men before Calvin you pretend to be yours there is not one hath holden all the same tenets with you and no more For it is enough for you that they dissent from the Church of Rome and sling at the Popes authority what ever tenets they hold in matters of belief to call them yours Which hath made Dr. Vane Chaplain to our late King judiciously compare them to Sampsons foxes which were all bound together by the tails although their heads went diverse wayes So that when you call the Luthereans Valdenses Albigenses Hussites Catharists Wicklessians Graecians Egyptians yours you may as well call the Turks and Tartars yours if we trust all records which speake of their tenets And as for the Fathers hear if they were yours in the opinion of the most learnea Protestants Dudithius apud Bezam ep 1. If that be true which Papists say the Fathers with mutual consent are altogether on their side Pet. Martyr 2. de verbo col 1539. as long as we stand to Councils and fathers we shal alwayes remain in the same errours And fully confesseth that Hierom Ambrose and Augustin held the invocation of Saints Chemnitius in ex concil trid art 3. pag. 100. did not disput but avouch that most of the Fathers said the souls of the Martyrs heard the petition of those that prayed to them they went to monuments and invocated Martyrs by name Whitgift in his defence pag. 473. all the Bishops and writters of the Greek and Latine Church too who no doubt were the Fathers for the most part were spotted with the doctrine of Free-will Merit Invocation of Saints Judge then Sir if they were pure In the third part you ask where was the Church of Rome before the council of Trent I answer you even where she is now except in Jappony India China and some parts of America where by their Christian labours and by the blessing of GOD she hath been established since Neither can you instance that she is not constantly the same in all points Nay more say you was the Popes infallible universal supremacie heard of the first 600. years Where it seems you must be very deaf who hear not the voice of 1200. Fathers speaking only in the four first general Councils He who holdeth the See of Rome is chief and head of all Patriarchs saith right seeing he is the first as Peter to whom all power is given over all Christian Princes and all their people and who ever contradicteth this is excommunicated Can. 29. Concil Nicaeni anno 325. Where 316 Bishops were conveened Secondly
them eternally who had not free-will to obey his Commandements Hear St. Aug. lib. de Fide contra Manich. chap. 10. Who will not cry out it is a foolish thing to command him who hath not freedom to obey what is commanded And it is an injurie to condemn him who hath no power to fulfil them And again lib. de Gr. lib. Arbit cap. 2. GOD hath revealed to us in Scripture that in man is free-will because GODS Commands would not perfect man unless he had free-will to do them Gregory hom 12. on Numb O Israel what doth the Lord thy GOD require of thee Let them be ashamed of these words who deny free-will in man How should GOD require of man unless man had in his power what to offer to GOD requiring Doth he not here speak to you and clearly against you Now whereas you cite Rom. 11. 6. Election is meerly of grace you put in the word meerly which is not in Scripture And whereas it is said if it be of grace then it is no more of workes that is meaned of natural workes without grace or workes of the law As answer these Doctors whose sentence you here impungue for without grace you say well with the Apostle we cannot think a good thought and without Christ we can do nothing John 15. 5. Wherefore it is another calumny when you make us say that without Christ we may merit congruously which we hold for Pelagian and Semi-Pelagian Heresie Duply You reason for Free-will upon Prote ∣ stants Duply Pelagian grounds as Jansenius Ipr. who was Popish hath aboundantly proved in his learned work If you would read and consider him he would satisfie and refute you But seeing you gift us with him and so with Augustin for in these be is totus Augustinus I shal only say this by way of position First The natural man hath no freedom for spiritual good as before the fall because he is the servant of sin Hear Aug. contra duâ—â— epist. Pelagian Libertaâ— illa quae fuit in Paradiso periit per peccatum Propter quod natura humana Divina indiget gratia diceâ—te Domino si vos filius liberaverit vere liberi eritis He granteth a freedom for evil but of our selves as of our selves we cannot think a good thought we say the same with Scripture and Antiquitie Secondly We hold that in some moral acts a man hath freedom whither by a new gift or as the remainder of the first I shal not disput E. G. He may elocat his Virgin to be warried or not according to the text cited by you 1. Cor. 7. 37. this we do not deny Thirdly Commands threatnings exhortations are means appointed by GOD to make us who are nilling willing to do good yet so that it is he who worketh in us both to will and to do Phil. 2. 13. Who worketh all our workes in us Is 26. 1â— So the place you cite Deut. â—0 19. maketh nothing against us for as Augustin saith jubet javat and the Elect get grace â—o obey these who are approven will thus be made manifest so it is not in vain for us to exhort Papists to be converted for wisdom wiâ—lbe justified of her own children And did not our Lord upon this account exhort the obstinat Jews to reformation Yet your atgument from exhortations is against him and his way asmuch as against us We have a vvill moral faculties of willing and nilling and are not stocks Augustin throughout meaneth no more and admit that Origen be of your mind Scripture saith the contrar If election be of grace without workes is it not clear that it is of meer grace For these two are opposit here You say you do not refuse that not set up free-will in man as before the fall and appeal to your School-men for my information I answer you make use of the word grace as Pelagius did ad frangendam invidiam but indeed Adam had no more power over his will then ye give to lost man which I prove thus Adam could plead for no more but the posse by his câ—eation and the velle if he pleased to choose or refuse obedience But all your Jâ—suits give this to man after the fall that positis omnibus requisitis ad agendum which doth take in the decree the concourse and grace it self in the sense of all your Dominicans at lest who impugne this description yet potest agere vel non agere therefore he hath as much now as before the fall according to your Divinity Albeit you condemn Pelagius yet ye are wholly his here See I beseech you Jansenius on this subject Yea ye make your self differ from another contrar to the Apostle 1. Cor. 4. 7. For two having equal grace objective and subjective it is the will which casteth the ballance and maketh it efficacious in one not in another This is the doctrine of School-men So ye have your will to thank your will to invocat for any good And what more said the Semi-Peldgians or Messalians then the Mass-men do here averre Your Council of Trent saith the will potest dissentire si velit your school-men whom you desire me to consult in this matter are of the same tenets The council saith Sess 6. chap. 5. that one is converted and mother remaineth in his infidelity the cause is in their will in that one entertaineth the other rejecteth the grace of GOD. Molina disp 12. to hold this saith he is a matter of faith Eckius in his Enchir saith that the beginning of our Salvation we have from Gods mercy but it is in our power to yeeld to thaâ— divine inspiration or not Aquinas contra Genres lib. 3. saith it is in the power of free-will to hinder or not hinder the receiving of divine grace Molina again telleth that the persaverance of men in good dependeth upon their own co-operation with grace By grace they mean no more but a moral suasion externally offered or an objective inclination of the will but no effectual determination at all So indeed at the command of the will grace is either useful or not permitted to enter in or shut out of doors Who perceiveth not this doctrine to be derogatory to the honor of GOD and power of free grace Therefore we say with Augustin in his Ench. cap 32. DEUS nolentem praevenit ut velâ—â— volentem sequitur ne frustra velit The Lord by his grace maketh nilling men willing and willing men are assisted by the same lest they runne in vain The will of man saith he who was the hammer of Pelagianism is libera quia liberata It s free because it s freed See Aug. de side ad Petrum Diaconum cap. 32. Firmissime tene nullatenus dubites posse quidem hominem quem nec ignorantia literarum nec aliqua prohibet imbecillitas vel adversitas verba sanctae Logis Euangelii sive legere sive ex ore cujusdam praedâ—catorâ—s audire sed ut quod audit
lamentable that ye resolve your faith into humane testimony yea into that which is a very lie the Popes infallibility Were it not safer to make Scripture your ground then to build upon this sandie foundation and so river your selves incurably into errour Reply You runne out upon the Popes titles till in the end you make him a Demi-God Papist Reply imputing this as that by way of calumny to us Whereas all the Apostles were equal in power and dignity say you Matth. 20. 26. Where brist only forbiddeth spiritual Superiours to exercise that power with pride and tyrrany as did the Princes of the Gentiles but with humility and meekness as himself did Yet he there expresseth a greater and a lesser a superiour and inferiour amongst them as he saith more clearly in Luke 22. 26. he that is amongst you greatest let him be as the lesser and he who is chief as he who would serve them You cite Cyprian saying the Apostles were equal in dignity but suppresing the following words that Christ disposed the order of unity beginning with Peter whom in his epist ad Julianum he calleth both head and root of his Church All that followeth is that Moses spoke unadvisedly the Propher Elisha was ignorant of some things the Prophet Nathan made a retractation and St. Peter controuled the Heavenly vision To shew the Prophets and Apostles were not infallible save in penning the Scripture and so that the Pope is not such This is but a vain rapsodie to colour your own unsetled belief and contradiction in doctrine but nothing against us For suppose they had erred in these things that concerned not their doctrine all that you can inferre by comparison is that the Pope may erre in the like But as in penning the word of GOD they were infallible were they not also in preaching of it Or is not the high Bishop in all Councils as in the representative Church infallible in subscribing approving and confirming her decrees If the same decrees of the Council be infallible So that when you deny the Pope as head with the Bishops in general Councils as chief men to be infallible you deny the infallibility of the Church which I have sufficiently shewed reflecting on your sixth Answer Duply You labour to prove imparity amongst Prote ∣ stants Duply the Apostles from Luke 22. 26. and would have us to believe that the Papal Monarchy is there which is like the consequence of Mr. Vaux in his Catechism proving Image worship from the second Command For it is clear from verse 30. that albeit Kingly government was in the state yet it should not be so in the Church And that tyrranie is not the only thing forbidden here appeareth from this that somewhat is interdicted to Church-men which is granted to others but tyrrany is licensed to none Compare Matth. 20. 25. with Luke 22. 25. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the one place is expressed by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the other Then it is not only inhibited here Beside the 20. Matth. which you call unclear is most clear he that will be greatest seeking to exalt himself shal be least for he shal be abased And be who is called greatest in Luke 22. is opposed to the youngest the word is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the verse So by this opposition the greatest is the eldest or the greatest in gifts who should be humble self-denyed Ministers as if they were not so priviledged See 1. Peter 5. 3. To the place of Cyprian cited ye answer nothing Only you alleage that I suppress what followeth in stead of the citation you take your self to another place ad Julianum where he caâ—leth Peter first in order and this we do not deny But what will that make for his visible Monarchy For sure I am dic Ecclesiae Matth. 18. will resure that to the worldâ— end This is confirmed by Cyprians own practise for saith he Cyprian epist. 6. ad Clerum de cura Paup Ab initio Episcopatus mei nihil statui agere sine consensis cleri plebis See Cyprian epist 52. al Antonium and there you will perceive that your Pope is not like Cornelius of whom he speaketh for he was chosen Clericorum omnium testimonio plebis qui adfuit suffragio The faithful Martyr was much for peace unity and order and being infested with the Novatians he saith inde sunt nata schismata quod sacerdoti DEI non obtemperatur and telleth that by way of regrate But when he writteth to Cornelius he calleth him frater and no more Where then was your Popedom But ye equal your Pope to the Prophets and Apostles who penned the Scripture which is an odious comparison not worthy of an answer But forgetting your self you say the Pope in the Council then it is not the Pope alone of whose Monarchy we are here speaking and ridiculously you subjoyn if the Council be infallible what language is this The Pope is infallible in subscribing the decree of a counsel if the Council be infallible I say neither of them is infallible so your faith is resolved into a lie You would seem to hang the Popes infallibilitie on the sentence of a council if it be so the Pope sealing their decrees is infallible accidentally and relatively not in himself Others hang the infallibility of the Council on the Pope so a fallible council may consequently be infallible and if he ratifie the sentence of a Session it is all one with an Oecumenick-council All these crotcheâ—s are the pillars of your faith which are worm-eaten proppes to which I have spoken formerly in answer to your mentioned reflection 20. Ye make Christ as many Bodies aâ— their be administrations of the Supper § 20 Inst. by that your Transubstantiation Whereas Scripture giveth him but one natural Body which the Heaven must contain till the restitution of all things Act. 3. 21. And we believe in our Creed that he ascended to Heaven from thence he will come to judge quick and dead Ye break not the Bread contrar to the Scripture 1. Cor. 10. 16. Yea ye deny that Bread is there after the consecration contrar both to sense and reason And whereas Christ entered within the Vail not that he should offer himself often An unbloody sacrifice expiatory of sin under the Gospel is contrar to Scripture Heb. 9. 22. Heb. 9. 25. And by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified Heb. 10. 14. Ye make as many bodily offerings of Jesus Christ both for dead and living as there be Masses Reply You have many false accusations Papists Reply as formerly but no witness or warrand It is to be altogether ignorant of our terms to say that we give Jesus Christ as many Bodies as there be administrations of the Sacrament of the Supper For as we teach one and the same Body is given in every one of our administrations So we believe that he ascended to Heaven that the Heaven containeth
with naked persecuted truth in our Church as the Marques of Galeacia Mr. Smeton c. yea sundry have gone to Rome been converted by taking a distaste at their worship and way Fourthly Our run awayes runagads have to mourn before the Lord for their Apostacie seeing they cannot deny that the Ordinances in our Church have been by the Lords blessing instrumental to beget children to God This they must graunt unless they will say that all the reformed Church is unconverted which they have no confidence to averre Now how gross is it to spit in the face of her who did bear and foster them which I wish the Lord may lay to the consciences of such revolters But not to insist further I desire you in the fear of God to pause and consider well whether you are going to heaven or hell and by what rule you walk If the will of man or the revealed will of God have the power of your consciences or whether it be safer to take the scriptures way in which the Prophets and Apostles walked to heaven or the way of your own traditions and vaine inventions He who walketh according to the scripture rule peace and mercy shall be upon him and upon the Israell of God Reply In your last answer you say our Papists Reply pelf and policie is greater then yours both which I grant but glories in neither Yet if Ministers augmentations hold on they will shortly equal our pelf but not our Christian policit in employing it so well our glorious and goodly edifices of Churches Hospitals Monasteries dispersing and distributing their rents to pious uses But the thrusting down of Churches Hospitals Monasteries dispersing and dissipating their rents testifie your want of policy blind avarice mad passion Secondly You say we give indulgencies for looseness as if in Catholick times there had been greater looseness then since the Reformation Whereas the keeping of Lent and Fasting dayes were abolished Pennance and satisfaction for sin taken away Celibacie in Church men thought a crime Laicks allowed after divorcement to marry all good works thought impossible the Commandments thought impossible to be keeped and that men sin of necessity in their best actions which as it excuseth all wickedness and sin so it giveth way to all looseness and prophainness Thirdly You say many quit Rome in the integrity of their heart such as the Marquess of Galeacia and closed on their peril with naked truth in your Church To which I answer that all Hereticks and Schismaticks have quit Rome not in the integritie of their heart but in the blindness of their mind and that with their own peril eternal damnation closing with a very naked faith and Religion not well cloathed with the least colour of truth but not with naked faith or belief which Catholicks confidently and constantly assert what ever you say to the contrar And it is no where else to be found for they know there is but one faith and one GOD and one true Church Consequentlie united in the same faith in all which points as she was established by Christ and his Apostles hath continued since their time visible in her Pastours and People in all Ages holy and incorrupted in her Doctrine religious in her Sacraments and ceremonies powerful and glorious in her wonders and miracles conversion of Infidels in the which the holy Fathers have lived and all true Martyrs have died Which only all new upstarts and Sects do persecute and oppose as Protestants at this day under the pretence of Reformation and upon the same ground of wresting Scripture against the common consent of the Church and Fathers with them For as all divisions in Christianity have been from the Roman Catholick Church so all have turned both their armes and pennes chiefly against her but in vain she is builded on a rock against which the gates of hell shal not prevail against her And so who return from you to her are neither run-awayes nor run-agads as you call them but like the forlorn child or lost sheep return'd Whose example undoubtedly many more would follow if they would consider Faith without unity amongst Protestants a Church without a Head a Body without united Members a Law without a Judge a Temple without an Altar Religion without Sacrifice Divine service without Religious ceremonies Sacraments which do not sanctifie Doctrine without infallibility Belief without a ground Preachers without a call Commandments impossible to be keeped Exhortation to what is not in our power Reprobation without workes Reward without Merits Sin punished where there is no Free-will Scripture received or rejected upon the catalogue of the Jewes GODS word patched up by men Reformation without authority New-lights against old received veâ—iâ—ins the Privat-spirit against the whole Church single mens opinions against the unanimous consent of the Fathers in a word wavering Pastours unsetled Government unstable Faith In the post-script there be a parallel patched about our Reformations which being composed of the gall of bitterness without verity or reason deserveth no answer but that which Hezekiah commanded Is 36. 21. Duply You graunt that ye are rich and politick this is true there is much prophain Prote ∣ stants Duply 1 policie where Jesuited equivocation is mantained But tell me if this be like the Godly sinceritie and Gospell simplicitie which was the old Apostolick way and ground of their rejoicing 2. Cor. 1. 12. If ye exceed us in sumptuous buildings which politickly you mistake for the policie mentioned by me though your pelf be greater then ours we want not Hospitalls Bridges Temples according to our abilitie But what is that to the doctrine which is according to Godliness The Turks exceed you as farre that way as ye doe us And the Temple of Diana at Ephesus exceeded you and them also Secondly You deny that Poperie fostereth prophanness but it is too apparent and Duply 2. how can it be otherwise If indulgencies bought and sold like an horse in a market tend not ex natura operis in it self to make men loose and prophane let any sober man judge For thus may they reason shall I quite my lusts for a little money I know what will do the bussines and put me in favour with God Why should I pluck out my right eye and cut off my right hand when a little time in puâ—gatorie will do the turne and a soulemasse which I can have for the Legacie of a summe of money will free me thence But we with the scripture forbid men to deceive themselves for they who do such things shall not it herit the kingdom of heaven So with us nothing less will satisfie then Gospell repentance and the least ground of hope is not granted to those hereafter who turne not away hore from their iniquities How can this be denyed seeing your latest Casuists such as Escobar Busenbaius and Diana the Sicilian have purposly devised latitudes for rendring prophane men secure about Duells Sodomy and other acts of