barreth the heathen of necessary means to salvation whilst he seeketh not the true church with which to jown hands and amongst christians this invisibilitie supposed it were very hard to hold communion with her in the administration of the sacraments We then affirm and let our adversaries disprove it if they can that the Roman church hath bin always visible We affirm that the Roman church hath bin always catholike viz. universall The Romish church hath ever had a succession of true bishops and pastors derived from the Apostles still teaching the same unchanged doctrine in all substantiall poynts of faith All which going together and being onely found in her and no other church do evidently prove that she alone is truly Apostolicall and consequently out of her there neither is nor can be salvation To disprove us herin we require that a protestant church with these marks may be shewed to have bin always extant Or if they cannot do this as we well know they cannot let them labour to assign us another catholike church distinct from the Roman when she as they falsly suppose fell from the first truth Or at least they must shew us who were the true professors of protestancy in the immediate age before Luther began in what city town or countrey they dwelt and what writers speak of them which lived before our times If they cannot satisfie us in any of these demands in which alone we offer to joyn issue with them then do we think the day to be ours if they can name any who did both believe and professe the protestant doctrine in all points let them do it and then if we do not disprove them the day is theirs And seeing all is brought to this issue we wish your learned to encounter us in this only point and whatsoever they shall return for answer not belonging hereunto we shall account it impertinent and unworthy reply as not direct to our purpose which is to find out the true catholike and visible church Ridiculous it is to answer as some do that there were true believing protestants when Luther began but durst not for fear of fire professe their faith this wee say is to condemn them to have had no faith at all but to be a dissembling company of such as were neither hot nor cold Christ saying of such he that denyeth me before men I will deny him before my father in heaven Or if your men fly this difficulty we will joyn issue with them in the maintenance of that faith and religion into which we Englishmen were first converted by Austine a monk a man of God sent by Gregory the great bishop of Rome more then a thousand years since a faith confirmed by miracle from heaven and therefore must needs be true and never noted to differ from the common received faith of christendome in those days as appeareth by the severall epistles of the said S. Gregory to the bishops of Europe Asia and Africa with all whom he held communion of faith so as if Christ had a catholike church upon earth as needs he must S. Gregory was of it and it then being a true church we say holding still the same â—enets it must needs be so now Gods truthbeing like unto himself without change and therefore if an angell should come from heaven to teach us any other doctrine then we first received we are not to hear him the good seed being ever first sowed and the Galathians were worthily reprehended by S. Paul for not constantly retaining their first planted faith Or lastly if you desire to goe nearer to the times of the apoâ—â—les we will joyn with you to prove our faith in the days of Constantine the great who first built and opened christian churches and gave freedom for christians to come together and to know and publish to the world what was held by them which before could not so well be done by reason of the great persecutions in which the church had bin till then generally eclipsed Finis The PREFACE to the ensuing ANSWER {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} To the unknown reader BE not offended courteous reader at the epithete I give thee For I call him to witnesse whom the schools rightly term primam veritatem that I am in respect of my present condition to seek a man of quality and authoritie to whom wronged truth may fly for succour and shelter Albeit the ensignes are everie where displayed for the defence of the true protestant religion for which both sides ingage their persons and estates yet upon exact search it will be found that the flags and streamers lately in Ireland and now also in England are dyed with protestant blood And for my self in particular though in the former Halcyou days of peace I could scarce name more persons of worth and quality then patrons of my weak endeavours against the common adversarie yet now I may truly say with Gregory the divine epist. 31. {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} Notwithstanding aâ— Cynegyrus in a sea-fight against the Persians after his weapons were wrested from him caught hold on the ship with his right hand and when that was cut off with his left hand and after both with his teeth as Crassus the famous oratour when Philip the consul sorely threatned him for speaking so freely for the liberty of the senate answered like a true Roman senatour if thou wilt have me hold my peace in so good a cause thou must cut out my tongue which after thou hast pluckt out with my very breath my liberty shall resute and confound thy tyrannicall humour and proud insolence in like manner though I have lost both libras and libros all means of livelyhood and liberty too yet I will never be wanting in the defence of Gods truth against Romish Idolatry and tyrannis while I have a hand to write or a tongue to speak dum memor ipse mei dum spiritus hos regit artus Having therefore received a chalenge from a Romanist whose name I know not who defieth the host of the living God and like Paris in Homer {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} hath demanded a duell a single combat with any that dare to enter into the lâ—sts with him in the quarrell of the Romish church I could not contain my self though restrained at the present and unfurnished of my choicest weapons but accepting of the chalenge I have met with him in the field pitcht by himself I mean the controversie touching the perpetuall visibilitie of the true church and other difficult questions both historicall and theologicall depending thereon Now because our Romish adversaries conceive that they have most advantage in this dispute of all other and therefore seek to reduce all questions to it as you hear in the chalenge I hold it fit in this proamble to the ensuing encounter exactly to state it and set it upon its true
reformatione ecclesiae and Wicelius method concord PAR. VI Touching the visibility and invisibility of the church in a different notion CHALLENGE For to say as some protestants do the church was long invisible besides that it is contrary to many clear prophecies and predictions of the old testament it barreth the heathen of necessary means to salvation whilst he seeketh not the true church with which to joyn hâ—â—ds and amongst christians this invisibility supposed it were very hard to hold communion with her in the administration of the sacraments Answer What protestants affirm that the catholike visible church to wit the company of those who professe the true christian faith was a long time invisible We deny that the church was ever driven to such straights or reduced to such a paucitie or obscuritie much lesse invisibility but that new proselytes might have accesse unto her and her own members communicate with her in the pledges of salvation though not always without danger to their persons and estates And therefore when you fight against an invisible church professing christianity you fight also against an invisible adversary and pursue your own fancie as Antipho in Aristotle imagined that he drave his own image in the ayr before him Of this see more at large in the Preface PAR. VII Concerning the visibility of the Roman church and how the Papacie hath been opposed in former ages CHALLENGE We then affirm and let â—ur adversaries disprove it if they can that the Roman church hath been always visible Answer That a Roman church hath been always in some degree visible we yeeld you gratis but that the Roman church you mean hath been so we peremptorily deny When we grant that a Roman church hath been always visible our meaning is that since the christian faith was at first planted by the preaching of the prime apostles and watered with the blood of many millions of martyrs there hath been always in Rome and the territories thereof and provinces belonging to it a church professing christian doctrine in the beginning most purely in the middle more impurely but in the end and at this day most corruptly And what gain you hereby that the Roman church you mean that is that church or rather that faction in the church for papatus est in ecclesia papatus tamen non est ecclesia which professeth the present Roman faith and adhereth to the Pope as supreme head of the church hath been always visible It will no way follow christianity may be and was many hundred yeers without popery and a church in Rome also but as far different from the present Roman church as Sicily in Verres time was from the more ancient Sicily and therefore as the oratour sought for Sicily in the most fruitfull parts of Sicily so we at this day are to seek for the Roman saith and church so much commended by the apostles in Rome it self and find it anywhere in the christian world rather than there To instance in the controversie about the head which is the head of all controversies between us and from whence you take your denomination of paâ—ists and papalins we deny that there was any christian church at Rome or else-where for many hundred yeers after Christ which acknowledged the Popes supremacie or built their faith upon his infallibility St. Paul we know accounted himself nothing inferiour to the chief apostles If your eyes be so dazled with the brightnesse of the Popes triple crown that you cannot see Pauls equality to Peter and consequently the equality of other bishops to the pope in the letter of the text yet you cannot but see it in the fathers commentaries Hoc dicit saith S. Ambrose quia non est minor neque in praedicatione neque in signis faciendis nec dignitate sed tempore that is this the apostle speaketh to wit I am nothing inferiour to the chief apostles because he is not lesse or inferiour neither â—n the gift of preaching nor in the gift of miracles nor in dignity but in time What not inferiour to S. Peter no not to S. Peter if S. Chrysostome take him right As the Apostle calleth the Gentiles uâ—circumcision so he calleth the Iews circumcision And he sheweth himself to be of equall honour with the rest and he compares not himsâ—lf to others but to the chief of them shewing that every of them held the same rank of dignity {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} saith Oecumenius {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} see how he matcheth or equallizeth himself to Peter Nay which is more remarkable Pope Leâ— who when he took Peter alone extolleth him above the skies and admitteth him after a sort in consortium individuae Trinitatis that is into the fellowship or copartnership of the undivided Trinity yet meeting with Peter and Paul together he doth equall homage and reverence to them both and forbiddeth us to put any difference between them in this or any other respect De quorum meritis virtutibus quae omnem superant dicendi facultatem nihil diversum sentire debemus nihil discretum quos electio pares labor similes mors fecit aequales of whose worth and vertues which surpasse all ability of speech we ought to have no diverse or different opinion of them whose calling to the apostleship made them equaâ—l and their travels in their office alike and their martyrdom parallel Here he compareth them not onely in regard of their personall gifts and labours but of their calling and function electio pares S. Paul then in Pope Leo's judgement may go every where hand in handwith S. Peter he hath the right hand of him in the Popes seal as is confessed by Bellarmine who much troubleth himself to yeeld a sufficient reason thereof And as S. Paul stood upon even ground as it were with S. Peter and witâ—…tood him to the face so did Polycarpus contest with Anicotus and Polycrates with Victor against whom he wrote a synodicall epistle and S. Cyprian with Pope Stephen And therefore AEneas Sylvius afterwards Pope had good reason to affirm though Bellarmin gives him the lye for it that before the councell of Nice parvus respectus ad Romanam ecclesiam habebatur that is that there was little account made of the Roman church or bishop At the councell of Nice which was neither called nor ratified by his authoritie but the Emperor Constantines all the preeminence he had amounted but to a primacy of order and his authority and jurisdiction exceeded not Rome suburbicas ecclesias as Ruffinus hath it After the councell of Nice he contented himself with the style of Urbis Romae episcopus the bishop of the city of Rome The church of Carthage forbad under pain of excommunication any in Carthage to appeal from their courts ad transmarina judicia intending to the see of Rome In the synods held at Calcedon and Constantinople the patriarch of
men capable of the Popedom Pope Ioan and Benedict the ninth chosen Pope at ten years old were no such if faithfull pastors and bishops truely discharging their pastorall function in feeding Christs flock by diligent preaching and exemplary living name me two such Popes for every hundred of years since Christ Phyllida solus habeto Iâ— by true bishops and pastors you understand rightly consecrated and canonically elected and invested Pope Pelagius the first was not so who obtained the papacy by an imposture noâ—Sylvester who aspired to it by art magick noâ—Eugenius who was at the first promoted by faction and afterwards held it by might in despight of the councell of Basil if by true bishops you mean orthodoxall bishops and preachers of the truth Liberius was no such branded with the note of Arrianism by St. Ierome and Pope Damasus Honorius was no such for he was condemned for the heresie of the Monotholites in three generall councels confirmed by three Popes Iohn the 23. was no such who is charged in the councell of Constance with the denyall of the immortality of the soul and the life to come and for that and for other blasphemies and enormous crimes deposed by the councell To come yet neerer to the quick when you stand so much upon succession and make it an infallible note what mean you by succession locall succession or doctrinall that is a succeeding of bishops and pastors in the same place onely or a succession not only in the same place but principally and especially in the same orthodoxall and catholike doctrine which is the only true and properly so called succession as Nazianzen affirmeth {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} This excellent passage consisting of divers agnominations and gracefull figures in the greek cannot be translated but to the losse and therefore omitting the english of it in stead thereof I will impart unto you a very pertinent note upon it which I found in a friends book contrived by him into these elegant Iambicks {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} If you take succession in this latter sense you take up again a beggarly fallacy called petitio principii you prove idem per idem to wit that your Romish saith is the true faith and the Romish church the true church because your Romish bishops and pâ—… have always succeeded one another in the profession of one and the self-same orthodoxall faith If you take succession in the former sense for bare locall succession or the sitting of divers bishops one after another in the same chair you make a â—oodden argument much like to that wherewith the fool in Dion persâ—â—ded himself that he must needs be some great commander because he had sat in Caesars chair or that wherewith Vibius Râ—fus was more than half induced to beleeve that he had Tullies eloquence infused into him by sitting in Tullies pew and leaning upon Tullies desk By this argument you might prove profane Photius to be an holy bishop because he succeeded Ignatius an holy man and Athanasius to be an Arrian heretick because he succeeded an Arrian bishop and our renowned martyr Cranmer to be a papist because he succeeded Warham a papist and cardinall Pool to be a protestant because he succeeded Cranmer a protestant Nay by this reason you might prove pope Adrian who trampled upon the Emperour Fredericks neck blasphemously abusing the words of the psalmist thou shalt tread upon the lion and adder to be a pattern of humility Pope Hildedrand who entred like a fox and ruled like a lyon and dyed like a dog to have been a pattern of simplicitie Pope Stephen the 6. and Sergius the 3. who pulled their predecessor Formosus out of the grave the one cutting off his finger the other his head and casting his carkasse into Tiberis to have been patterns of humanity Pope Boniface the 7. who robbed S. Peters chair of all the jewels and pretious things in it to have been a pattern of a faithfull steward Pope Iohn the 12. who gave orders in a stable gelded his Cardinals drank an health to the devill and at dice called for help of Iupiter and Venus to have been a saint Pope Sylvester who gave himself wholly to the devill to have been a devoto Pope Sixtus the 4. who ware cloth of gold at home in his private house eased nature in stools of silver and deckt his harlâ—t Tiretia with shoos covered with pearl to have been a modest and frugall man Pope Alexander the 6. who carnally knew his own daughter and Pope Iohn the 13. who was slain in the very act of adultery to have been virgins nay by this argument you might prove Pope Ioan who was said to be brought on bed in the street in a solemn procession to have been a man because she succeeded men in that see The heralds who have blazon'd the arms of the popes are Platina Genebrardus Luitprandus Sigonius Sigebertus Martinus Polonus Baptista Fulgosus Iovianus Pontanus Wesselius Groning Let me give you good counsell in your ear invent better arguments for popery than these or charge your elect ladies sub sigillo confessionis never to utter any of them before a learned protestant for fear of scandalizing your Romish faith Let this suffice for your note succession I will now canvas your note unity PARAGRAPH X. Touching the 4. note of the church viz. unity CHALLENGE Teaching the same unchanged doctrin in all points of faith Answer To help out your former argument drawn from the note succession you add another note as you make it the note of unity and consent in doctrin at least in all substantiall points of faith against which I except first that it is no proper mark of the Church secondly that this mark is not to be found in your Romish church Although nothing better becommeth the church of God than to be at unity in it self yet certain it is that both â—nity may be without the true church and even in the purest times the true church was without unity The enemy shortly after the apostles time sowed such tares of dissention among the good wheat in the field of the church that the heathen in their theaters derided the christians for the multiplicitie of sects among them On the contrary as the poet said magna inter molles concordia so we may often observe too great an unity in the enemies of the gospel conspiring against the Lord and against his anointed The Sadduces might the Nestorians may the Arrians did brag of their consent in matter of faith Who art thou saith the Arrian Emperour to Liberius then orthodox who troublest the peace of the whole world Will you
which are contained in the creed only they speak evill of the Roman church and clergy â—o this popish inquiâ—â—tor I will add another Romish nomenclator namely Conradus Wimpina ex fagis who summeth up all his wits and readings to make a recapitulation of all hereticks and sectaries as he termeth them indeed such as have opposed the corrupt doctrin and practises of the Roman church and of these he gives us this pedegree the Lionists begat the Waldenses the Waldenses the Dulcinists the Dulcinists the Wickliffists the Wickliffistâ— the Hussites the Hussites the Lutherans You say these were all bnethren in iniquitie and joyned hands against the church of Roâ—e but yet they agreed not among themselvs not held the same doctrin which the protestants do at this day These are your shifts but Wimpina will beat you out of these dodges for first for the doctrin of the Lionists and Waldenses â—e delivereth it as followeth That the church of Rome is spirituall Babylon and a harlot that in the altar after consecration there is not the body of Christ but only consecrated bread which by a figure is said to be Christs body as it is said of the rock that it was Christ that the saints understand nothing of humane affairs upon earth that God alone is to be called upon there is no purgatory no veniall sins the benediction of salt ashes holy water c. hath no profit in it indulgences pardons and jubilees are of â—o worth the images of saints are not to be kept in churches nor to be worshipped exorcisms are vain and unprofitable Whereunto Rainerius addeth the Waldenses do not receive the canon of the masse they say that the offering which is made in the masse by the priest is nothing nor doth any way profit they dislike canonicall hours they say that the church did erre in forbidding priests marriages they disallow the sacraments of confirmation and extream unction they condemn latin prayers and say they doe the people no good they beleeve not the legends of saints they esteem the holy crosse no other then simple and bare wood they affirm that prayers for the dead do not at all profit the souls of the departed and lastly that the doctrin of Christ and the apostles without the ordinances of the church is sufficient to salvation If any desire to read more concerning the doctrin of the Lionists Albigenses and Waldenses and their agreement with the present reformed churches in every point of moment I refer him to the confession of the Waldenses exhibited to Uladislaus King of Hungary in the year of our lord 1508. extant in Orthwinâ—s Grâ—tius and to the writings of Lucas Tudensis Plichdorâ—ius and others against the Waldenses set forth by Iames Gretzer at Ingolstad An. 1613. Now that Dulcinists and Wickliffists received their doctrin from these Waldenses or Lionists the same Wimpina clearly testifieth Wickliffe faith he suckt heresies which he endeavoured to bring into England from the Waldenses and Iohn of Lion ring-leaders among hereticks And in the same book p. 21. he saith That Dulcinus in the year of our Lord 1306. was tainted with the errours of the Waldersâ—s and that he put all Europe into a kind of amazement and that in the mountains of Trent there is a remainder of the Dulciâ—â—sts even to this day And in the prologue of his fourth book he casts up the totall sum in this manner out of this recapitulation of heâ—esies â—f thou keepest it well in thy mind thou mayst see how heresies came out of England into Bohemia out of Bohemia into Saxony that is â—o let passe those things which are more ancient how they made a progresse from Oxford to Prague from Prague to Wittenberg so that Wickliffe Hâ—ss and Luther delivered them successively from hand to hand whence it appears that there is nothing uttered by the Luthera is at this day which was not before spoken of and taught by the Wickâ—â—ffists and Hussites This confession of Conradus Wimpina a very learned Romanist and a witnesse beyond exception against them is worth gold and may be fitly compared to the Bufonites a pretions stone well known yet taken out of the head of a toad for no better is this Wimpina full himself of the poyson of popery and swelling with malice against the Lutheran and all other reformed churches PARAG. XV Divine faith not to be built upon humane stories or records CHALLENGE If they cannot satisfie us in all these demands in which alone we offer to joyn issue with them then do we think the day to be ours If they can name any who did both beleeve and professe the protestant doctrin in all points let them do it and then if we doe not disprove them the day is theirs And seeing all is brought to this issue we wish your learned to encounter us in this only point and whatsoever they shall return for answer not belonging hereunto we shall account impertinent and unworthy reply as not direct to our purpose which is to find out a true catholike and visible church Answer To answer you in the doctrinall point though we could not satisfie you in these your historicall demands neither should your faith gain any thing by it nor ours lose for the main and leading question between us is which church yours or ours holdeth the true undoubted christian faith without which no man can be saved and in a second place what are the proper notes of the true church of which St. Cyprian speaketh truly Deum non potest habere patrem qui ecclesiaÌ„ non habet matrem he cannot have God for his father who hath not the church for his mother these are quaestiones de fide in a different degree now quaestiones de fide cannot be determined by humane stories as Ballarmin rightly deduceth for humane stories or records faciunt tantum fidem humanam cui falsum subesse potest that is make or beget an humane faith or rather credulity subject to errour not a divine and infallible beleef that must be built upon surer ground Although you could prove your present Romish beleef to be as ancient as the Sadduces heresie and as universally spread as the Arrian or of as interrupted continuance as the Nestorian this would not win you the day did all the ecclesiasticall stories which are extant give in evidence not only for the visibility but also for the sincerity of your present Romish church yet such a proof being meet humane would not amount to a divine infallible argument to build divine faith upon on the contrary if we can prove evidently by the written word of God that our faith not yours is that precious faith once given to the saints and that the doctrine of our church at this day perfectly accordeth with the harmony of the apostles and evangelists and consorteth in all points with the undoubted orthodoxal church in their times we need not alledge any stories or records for
worship which is proper to God so Aquinas determineth Par. 3. quaest. 25. â—r 2. Illi exhibemus cultum latriae in quo ponimus â—â—em salutis clamat enim ecclesia O crux ave spes unica hoc passionis tempore auge piâ—s justitiam reisque dona veniam ibid. Crux Christi in qua Christus crucifixus est tum propter representationem tum propter Christi membrorum coutactum 〈◊〉 adoranda est We yeeld divine worship to that in which we put our trust but we repose the trust of our salvation saith he on the crosse of Christ for so the church singeth all hail O crosse our only hope in this time of passion increase righteousnesse in the godly and grant sinners pardon and hereupon concludeth that the crosse on which Crist was crucified as well because it representeth Christ as also because it touched the members of his body is to be adored with divine worshop by which reason all christians which then lived were bound to worship with divine worship Malchus his ear and Iudas his lips and the asses back on which Christ rode and the dust in the floor on which he wrote and the water in which he washed and the oyntment which was powred upon him and the souldiers fists that buffered him and what not that toucht any part of his body Yet Andradius is not ashamed to follow Aquinas his steps non diffiâ—emar nos praeclarissimam Christi crucâ—m adorare cultu latriae we do not deny but that we worshop the most excellent crosse of Christ with divine worship And Gretzer treads in the same path in his book De Cruce And Cardinall Bellarmin scorns to follow any of these he runs before them all in the idolatrots worship not only of the wood of the crosse on which Christ hung but also of all crosses whatsoever made after that fashion Nos omnes cruces adoramus quia omnes sunt imagines verae crucis we adore all crosses because all crosses are images of the true crosse Was this the beleef or practice of the church in Constantines time Let us enquire of S. Ambrose and he will tell us that S. Helen the mother of Constantine was far from worshipping the wood of the true crosse which she found by miracle â—â—â—enit â—itulum Regeâ— adoravit non lignum utique quia hic gentilis error est vanitas impiorum sed adoravit illum qui pep 〈…〉 ligâ—◠〈◊〉 she found the title she adored the king not the wood verily that is an heathenish errour and wicked vanity but she worshipped him who hung on the wood Let us enquire of Mâ—â—utius Foelix whether the church in those days worshipped or had crosses in their oratories The heathenâ— indeed as he there brings them in objected it to the christians that they worshipped the crosse colâ—nt quod â—erentur to which jear of the heathens Mirâ—tiâ—â— answereth cruces nec colimus nec optamns we â—â—ither worship crosses nor desire them 4. We teach with the apostle that marriage is honourable among all men and that it is the doctrin of devils to prohibit marriage in any condition of men be they of the clergy or of the laity You maintain the contrary both in your doctrin and practice priests among you are tyed to a single life and some of you blâ—sh not to say that a clergy man had better keep a concubine than his married wife praestat concubinam alere quam uxerem Was this the judgement or the practice of the church in Constantines age did not bishops and priests then marry Let Athanasius inform us who in his epistle ad Dracontium writeth thus you may observe many unmarried bishops among us and many married monks and again many married bishops and unmarried monks By which testimony of Athanasius it appears that in his time not only bishops but monks also might and did marry Sozomen maketh mention hist. lib. 1. cap. 11. of Spiridion the bishop of Cyrus his wife and children {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} He was married and had children and it was no disparagement unto him in his ecclesiasticall function word for word but he was not therefore worse or inferiour in those things which belong to God No more was Hilary the famous bishop of Poictou Nor the father of Nazianzen who lest his bishoprick to his son Gregory the flower of all the Greek fathers of whom thus Mantuan Praesule patre satus â—aâ— tune id jura sinebant Pastorale pedum gessit post funera patris We see the practice in Constantines time let us now hear the judgement of the church touching the practice Eusebius brings in Clemens inveighing against the despisers and contemners of marriage in this manner {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} that is what will these marriage haters condemn the apostles for Peter and Philip gate children And Socrates hath a remarkable story to this purpose there being a motion made in the councell of Nice to deprive married priests of society and conversation with their wives old Papnutius though himself an unmarried man yet mainly opposed that motion disswading the fathers of the councell from laying such a heavie yoak upon the clergy alledging that marriage is honourable among all men and the bed undefiled That all men could not bear such a restraint that too much strictnesse in this kind would be hurtful to the church that the company of a man with his lawfull wife is chastity 5. We teach that the elements of bread and wine are types-and figures of the body and bloud of Christ which we truly receive in the sacrament of the Lords supper spiritually by saith not carnally with the mouth You on the contrary that the bread and wine are turned by transubstantiation into the true body blood of Christ which you beleeve that you receive with the mouth and chew with the teeth Did the church of Christ in Constantines time beleeve transubstantiation or carnall manducation Let us heat what Athanasius and Eusebius and Greg. Nazianzen and S. Ephrem have delivered touching this point Athanasius illustrating those words of our Saviour in the 6. of Iohn it is the spirit which quickneth the flesh profiteth nothing c. saith Hic de utroque â—arâ—â— siâ—ct spiritu suo locutus est spiritâ—… a câ—râ—e discrimâ—n a vit. ut non solum in eo quod oculis apparebat sed naturam quoqâ—â— invisiâ—â—leâ— credentes disceremus ea quae loqueretur non carâ—â—lia esse sed spiritualia quot enim hominibus corpus ejus suffecrffeâ— ad â—â—buâ— ut universi mundi alimonia fieret Sed propterea ascensioâ—â—â— sâ—â— in câ—lum mentionem fecit ut eos a corporals intellectâ—â— abstraheret ac deinde carnem suam de qua locutus erat cibum è supernis â—â—lestem spiritualem alimoniam ab ipso donandaâ— intelligerent quae enim loquutus sum vobis inquit spiritus