booke and read the place The which after I had read I sayd it made nothing against me but against the Arriās and other heretiks against whom Ireneus wrote prouīg that they weare not to be credityd because they did teache and folowe after straunge doctrine in Europa that the chefe churche of the same was founded by Peter and Paule and had to his tyme continued by faythfull succession of the faythfull Bishops in preachyng the true Gospel as they had receyued it of the Apostles and nothyng lyfe to the late sprong heretikes c. Wherby he cōcludeth against thē that they were not to be heard neyther to be credited The which thing yf you my lordes be able to proue nowe of the churche of Rome then had you as good autoritie against me in my cause nowe as Ireneus had against those heretikes But the church of Rome hath swarued frō that truthe and simplicitie of the Gospell which it maintained in Ireneus tyme and was vncorrupted frō that which it is nowe Wherfore your lordships can not iustly applie the autoritie of Ireneus to the churche of Rome nowe which is so manifestlye corrupted from the primatiue Churche London So wil you say stil it maketh nothing for the purpose what so euer autoritie we bring and wil neuer be satisfyed Phil. My lorde when I do by iust reason proue that the autorities which be brought against me do not make to the purpose as I haue already proued I trust you wil receyue myne answere worcest It is to be proued most manifestly by al auncient wryters that the sea of Rome hath alwayes folowed the truthe and neuer was deceyued vntil of late certayne heretikes had defaced the same Phil. Let that be proued I haue done worcest Nay you are of suche arrogācie singularitie vayne glorie that you wil not se it be it neuer so wel proued Phil. Ha my lordes is it nowe tyme thynke you for me to folowe singularitie or vaynglorie synce it is nowe vpō daunger of my lyfe and death not onlye presently but also before God to come and I knowe yf I dye not in the true faythe I shall dye euerlastingly again I knowe yf I do not as you would haue me you will kyll me and many thousandes moo Yet had I leuer perishe at your handes than to perishe eternally And at this tyme I haue lost al my cōmodities of this worlde and nowe lye in a colhouse where a man would not laye a dogge with the which I am wel contented Cole Where are you hable to proue that the churche of Rome hath erred at any tyme and by what historie certaine it is by Eusebius that the churche was stablyshed at Rome by Peter and Paule and that Peter was Bisshop .xxv. yeres at Rome Phil. I knowe wel that Eusebius so wryteth but yf we compare that which S. Paule writeth to the Galathiās the first it wil manifestly appere the cōtrarie that he was not halfe so long there He lyued not past .xxxv. yeares after he was called to be an Apostle And Paul maketh mencion of his abidyng after Christes death more then .xviij. yeres Colle What did Peter wryte vnto the Galathians Phil. No I saye Paule maketh mencion of Peter wrytyng to the Galathians of his abiding And further I am hable to proue bothe by Eusebius and other historiographers that the church of Rome hath manifestly erred and at this present doth erre because she agreeth not with that which they wrote The primatiue churche dyd vse according to the Gospel And ther nedeth none other profe but cōpare the one with the other London Hearke my lordes wise parabable I maye compare this man to a certayne man I reade of which fell into a disperation and went into a wood to hang him selfe And when he came there he went vewyng of euery tree and could fynde none on the which he myght vouchesaffe to hang himselfe But I wil not applie it as I myght I praye you maister doctor go forth with him Nother you nor they are hable in this case Colle My lorde there be on euery syde on me that be better hable to answer him And I loue not to falle in disputacion for that nowe a dayes a man shall but sustayne shame and obloquy therby of the people I had leuer shewe my mynde in wrytyng Phil. And I had leuer that you should so do then otherwyse For thē a mā may better iudge of your wordes then by argument And I beseche you so doo But yf I were a ryche man I durst wager an hundreth poundes that you shal not be hable to shewe that you haue sayd to be decreed by a general coūsel in Athanasius tyme. For this I am sure of that it was concluded by a general counsel in Affrica many yeres after that none of Affrica vnder payne of excōmunication should apeale to Rome the which decre I am suer they would not haue made yf by the scriptures it had bene by an vniuersall counsell that all men should abyde and folowe the determinacion of the churche of Rome Colle But I can shewe that they reuoked that errour agayne Phil. So you saye maister doctour But I pray you shewe me where I haue hetherto heard nothing of you for my contentation but bare wordes without any autoritie London What I praye you ought we to dispute wyth you of our fayth Iustinian in the lawe hath a tytle De fide catholica to the contrarie Phil. I am certayne the ciuil lawe hath suche a constitucion but our fayth must not depende vpon the ciuil lawe For as S. Ambrose sayeth Non lex sed fides congregauit Ecclesiam Not the lawe but the gospel sayeth he hath gathered the church together worcest Maister Philpot you haue the spirite of pryde wherwith ye be ledde which wil not let you yelde to the truth Leaue it for shame Phil. Sir I am suer I haue the spirite of fayth by the which I speake at this present Neither am I ashamed to stand in my fayth Glocest What do you thynke yourselfe better learned then so many notable learned men as be here Phil. Elyas alone had the truthe whē there were foure hundreth priestes against him worcest Oh you would be coūted now for Helyas And yet I tel thee he was deceiued For he thought ther had ben none good but him selfe and yet he was deceyued for ther was .vii. hundreth besydes hym Phil. Yea but he was not deceyued in doctrine as the other .vii. hūdreth were worc By my fayth you are greatly to blame that you can not be content to be of the churche which euer hath ben of that faythful antiquitie Phil. My lorde I knowe Rome haue ben there where I sawe your lordship worc In dede I dyd flye from hence thither And I remember not that I sawe you there But I am sorye that you haue ben there for the wyckednes whych you haue sene there peraduēture causeth you to
principally by succession of bishops and therfore you vnderstaÌ„de not S. Austine for what I pray you was the opinion of the Donatistes against whom he wrote can you tell what contrey were they of phil They were a certen secte of men affirming among other heresies that the dignitie of the sacramentes depended vpon the worthynes of the minister so that if the minister were good the sacrament which he ministred were auayliable or els not Chiches That was their errour and they had none other but that And he red an other authoritie of S. Austins out of a boke which he brought euen to the same purpose that the other was Phil. I chalenge S. Austine to be with me throughly in this poynte and wil stand to his iudgement takyng one place with an other Chiches If you wil not haue the church to be certen I praye you by whom wil you be iudged in maters of controuersy Phil. I do not deny the churche to be certen but I deny that it is necessarily tyed to any place longer then it abideth in the word and for all maner of controuersies the word ought to be iudge Chichest But what yf I take it one way and you an other howe than Phil. S. Austen sheweth a remedy for that willeth quod vnius locus per plura intelligi debeat that one place of the scripture ought to be vnderstanded by the mo Yorke How answere you to this argument Rome hath a knowen successioÌ„ of bishops which your churche hath not Ergo that is the catholik churche and yours is not bicause ther is no suche successioÌ„ can be proued for your churche phil I deny my lord that succession of bishops is an infallible point to knowe the churche by for there may be a succession of bishops knowen in a place and yet there be no churche as at Antioche and at Ierusalem and in other places wher the Apostles abode aswell as at Rome But if you put to the succession of bishops succession of doctrine with all as S. Austine doth I will graunt it to be a good profe for the catholike churche but a locall succession only is nothing vayleable Yorke You will haue no churche then I se well phil Yes my lord I acknowledge the catholik churche as I am bound by my Crede but I can not acknowledge a false church for the true Chichest Why is ther twoo catholike churches then philpot No I knowe ther is but one catholike churche but there haue ben and be at this present that take vpon theÌ„ the name of Christ of his church which be not so in dede as it is writteÌ„ that there be that call them selues APostles and be not so in dede but the sinagoge of Sathan and lyers And nowe it is with vs as it was with the two women in SalomoÌ„s tyme which lay to gether and the one suppressed her child and after went about to chalenge the true mothers childe Chiches What a babling here is with you nowe I se you lacke humilitie you wil go about to teach and not to learne philpot My lords I must desire you to beare with my hastie speche it is my infirmitie of nature all that I speake is to learne by I would you did vnderstand all my mind that I might be satisfied by you through better authoritie Chichest My lord and it please your grace turne the argument vpon him which you haue made and let him shewe the succession of bishops of his church as we can do How say you can you shewe the succession of bishops in your churche from tyme to tyme I tell you this argument troubled doctor Ridley so sore that he could neuer answere it Yet he was a man well learned I dar say you will say phil He was a man so learned that I was not worthy to cary his bookes for learning Chichest I promise you he was neuer hable to answere that he was a man that I loued well and he me For he came vnto me diuers tymes being in prison and conferred with me philpot I wonder my lord you should make this argument which you would turne vpon me for the tryal of my churche wherof I am or that you would make bishop Rydley so ignoraunt that he was not hable to answere it since it is of no force For behold fyrst I denyed you that locall succession of bishops in one place is no necessary point alone to proue the catholike churche by that which I haue denyed you can not proue and is it then reason that you should put me to the tryall of that which by you is vnproued and of no force to conclude against me Chichest I se my lords we do but lose our labours to reason with him he taketh him selfe better learned than we phil I take vpon me the name of no learning I bost of no knowledge but of faith and of Christ and that I am bouÌ„d vndoubtedly to know as I am sure I doo Chichest These heretikes take vpon theÌ„ to be sure of all thinges they stand in you should say rather with humilitie I trust I knowe Christ than that you be sure therof phil Let him doubt of his faith that lysteth God gyue me alwayes grace to beleue that I am sure of his faith and fauoure in Christ Bathe Howe will you be hable to answere heretiks but by the determinatioÌ„ of the knowen catholike churche Phil. I am hable to answere al heretikes by the worde of God and coÌ„uince them by the same Chichest Howe arrogantly that is spoken I dare not say so Phil. My lord I pray you beare with me for I am bold in the truth syde and I speake some what by experience that I haue had with heretykes and I knowe the Arrians be the subtilest that euer were and yet haue I manifest scriptures to beat them downe with all Chiches I perceaue nowe you are the same maner of man I haue heard of which will not be satisfied by learning Phil. Alas my lord why do you say so I do desire most humbly to be taught if ther be any better way that I should learne and hitherto you haue shewed me no better Therfore I pray your lord ship not to misiudge without a cause Baâ—he If you be the true catholike churche than will you hold with the reall presence of Christ in the sacrament which the true churche hath euer mayntayned phil And I my lord with the true churche do holde the same in the dewe ministracion of the sacrameÌ„t but I desire you my lord ther may be made a better conclusion in our first mater before we entre in to any other for if the churche be proued we shall sone agre in the rest In this meane while my lord of Yorke was turning his boke for mo places to helpe forthe his cause Yorke I haue found at lenthe a very notable place which I haue loked for all this while of S. Austine de simpliciate credendi Chichest It is but folly
elles but the earnest studie that the ministers of God ought to haue in preaching the worde God graunt that you of the cleargy would waie your duetie in this behalfe more then you doo Is this a iuste interpretaciō of the scripture to take pasce oues meas for to be lorde of the hole world In this meane while came in an other bacheler of diuinitie which is a reader of Greke in Oxforde belonging to the bishop And he toke vpon him to helpe master chaunceler Scoler What will you say yf I can shewe you a Greke Autor called Theophilacte to interprete it so Will you beleue his interpretacion Phil. Theophilacte is a late wryter and one that was a fauourer of the bishop of Rome and therfore not to be credited synce his interpretacion is cōtrary to the manifest words of the scriptures and contrarie to the determinacion of many general councels Scolar In what generall coūcel was it otherwyse that the bishop of Rome was not supreme head ouer al. Phil. In Nyce counsel I am sure it was otherwyse For Athanasius was there the chief B. and president of the councel and not the bishop of Rome Scolar Nay that is not so phil Then I perceyue you are better sene in wordes then in knowlege of thinges For I wil gage with you what you will it is so As you maye see in the Epitome of the councell Scoler I wil set Eusebius and shewe the contrarie and the boke of general coūcels He went into my lordes closet and brought Eusebius but the general councels he brought not sayeng for sauyng of his honestie that he could not come by them And there woulde haue defended that it was otherwyse in Eusebius but was not hable to shewe the same And so shranke away cōfounded Chan. The church of Rome hath ben alwayes takē for the hole catholike churche therfore I would aduise you to come into the same with vs. You se al the men of this realme do condemne you And why wil you be so singular Phil. I haue sayd and stil do saye that yf you can be hable to proue it vnto me that I wil be of the some But I am sure that the church which you make so much of Note is a false churche and a Synagoge of Satan And you with the learned mē of this realme do persecute the true churche and condempne suche as be ryghteouser then you Chaun Nay the Deuylles daughter Do you heare maister doctor what he sayeth that the churche of Rome is the deuil Chadsey I wishe you did thinke more reuerently of the churche of Rome ▪ What wil you saye yf I can showe you out of S. Austyne in his epistle writtē to Pope Innocentius that the hole generall coūcel of Cartage dyd allowe the churche of Rome to be chefest ouer al other Phil. I am sure you may shewe no suche thyng And with ther he set the boke of S. Austyne and turned to the epistle but he could not proue his allegacion manyfestly Thou falsifiest S. Austyne Chadsey but by coniectures in this wyse Chadsey Here you maye see that the coūcell of Cartage wrytyng to Innocentius the Bishop calleth the sea of Rome the Apostolike sea And besydes this they wryte vnto him certifyeng him of thinges done in the councel for the condemnacion of the Donatistes requiring his approbations in the same Which they would not haue done yf they had not taken the church of Rome for the supreme heade of others And moreouer you maye see howe S. Austyne dothe proue the churche of Rome to be the chatholike church The succession of false bishops and not of Christes faithe by continual successiō of the byshop vntil his tyme which successyon we can proue vntyl our dayes Therfore by the same reason of S. Austine we saye nowe that the churche of Rome is the catholike churche Phil. Maister doctor I haue considered howe you do waye S. Austyne And contrarye to his meanyng and wordes you would infer your false conclusion A false cōclusion indede As cōcerning that it was called by him the Apostolical sea that is not material to proue the churche of Rome nowe to be the catholike churche I wil graunt it now that it is the apostolike sea in respect that Paule and Peter dyd once there preache the Gospel and abode for a certayne season I would you could proue it to be the Apostolical sea of that true religion and synceritie as the Apostle lefte it and dyd teache the same The which yf ye can do you myght boast of Rome as of the Apostolical sea Otherwyse it is now of no more force then yf the Turke at Antioche and at Ierusalem should boast of the Apostolike seas bycause the Apostles once dyd there abyde and founded the churche of Christ And where as by that the hole coūcel of Carthage dyd wryte vnto Pope Innocētius certifieng him of that was done in the generall counsell and willyng him to set his helping hande to the suppressing of the Donatistes as they had done That facte of the councel proueth nothyng the supremacie of the bishop of Rome no more then yf the hole conuocacion house nowe gathered together and agreyng vpō certaine articles myght sende the same to some Bishop that vpon certaine impedimentes is not present willyng him to agree therto and to set them forth in his dioces The whiche facte doth not make any suche bishop of greater auctoritie then the reste bycause his consente is brotherly required And touching the successiō of the bishoppes of Rome brought in by saynt Austine maketh nothyng nowe therby to proue the same the catholike churche onles you can conclude with the same reason as S. Austyne dothe And the rehersall of the succession of the bishops doth tende to this only to proue the donatistes to be heretykes because they beganne aswel at Rome as in Affrica to foūde an other churche then was groūded by Peter and Paule and by their successours whom he reciteth vntil his tyme which all taught no such doctrine neyther no suche church as the Donatistes And yf presently you be hable to proue by the succession of bishops of Rome wherof you do glory that no suche doctrine hathe ben taught by any of the successours of Peters sea as is nowe taught and beleued of vs you haue good reason Agaynst vs. Otherwise it is of no force as I am hable to declare Chaun Well master doctor you se we can do no good in persuadīg of him let vs mynyster the articles which my lord hath left vs vnto him Howe faye you master Philpot to these articles M. Iohnson I pray you write his answeres phil Master chaunceler you haue no autorytye to enquire of me my belefe in such articles as you go about for that I am not of my lorde of Londōs diocese to be brefe with you I will make no further answere herin then I haue already to the bishop Chaun Why then let vs go our
your yeares great exercyse do excell therin but fayth coÌ„systeth not only in learning but in simplicytie of beleuing that which Godes word teacheth therfore I wil be glad to heare bothe of your lordship or of any other that god hath reuealed vnto by his worde the true doctrine therof thanke you that it dothe please you to take paynes herein Chiche You take the first alleged amisse as though al meÌ„ should be taught by inspiration not by learnyng Howe do we beleue the Gospel but by the authoritie of the church and because the same hath allowed it Phil. S. Paule sayeth he learned not the Gospel by men neyther of men but by the reuelatioÌ„ of Iesus Christ which is a sufficieÌ„t profe that the gospel taketh not his authoritie of maÌ„ but of God only Chichest S. Paule speaketh but of his owne knowlage how he came therto Phil. Naye he speaketh of the Gospel generally which coÌ„meth not from maÌ„ but from God that the churche must only teache that which coÌ„meth froÌ„ God and not mans preceptes Chiches Doth not S. Austine saye I would not beleue the Gospel yf the authoritie of the churche dyd not moue me therto phil I grauÌ„t that the authoritie of the churche dothe moue the vnbeleuers to beleue but yet the churche geueth not the worde his authoritie for the worde hath his authoritie only froÌ„ God not of man Men be but disposers therof for fyrst the worde hath his beyng before the churche and the worde is the foundacion of the churche and first is the foundacion sure before the buyldyng theron can be stedfast Chiches I perceaue you mistake me I speake of the knowlage of the Gospell and not of the authoritie for by the churche we haue all knowlage of the Gospel phil I confesse that For fayth cometh by hearyng and hearyng by the worde and I acknowlage that God appointeth an ordinary meanes for meÌ„ to come vnto knowlage nowe and not miraculously as he hath done in tymes paste yet we that be taught by men must take hede that we learne nothing else but that which was taught in the primatiue churche by reuelation Here came in the B. of Yorke and the bishop of Bathe and after they had saluted one an other and commoned a whyle together the Archbishop of Yorke called me vnto them sayeng Yorke Syr we hearyng that you are out of the waye are come of charitie to enforme you and to bring you into the true fayth to the catholike churche agayne willyng you first to haue humilitie and to be humble and willyng to learne of your betters for else we can do no good wyth you and God sayeth by the Prophete On whome shall I reste but on the humble and meke and suche as tremble at my worde Nowe yf you will so be we wil be glad to trauail with you phil I know that humilitie is the dore wherby we enter vnto Christ I thaÌ„ke his goodnes I haue entred in at the same vnto him wil with al humilitie heare whatsoeuer truth you shal speake vnto me Yorke What be the maters you staÌ„de on and require to be satisfyed Phil. My lorde and it please your grace we were entred in a good mater before you came of the churche and howe we should knowe the truth but by the churche Yorke In dede that is the heade we nede to beginne at for the churche beyng truly knoweÌ„ we shal soner agre in the particular thynges phil Yf your lordships can proue the churche of Rome to be the true catholike churche it shall do muche to persuade me towarde that you would haue me inclyne vnto Yorke Why let vs go to the definition of the churche what is it phil It is a coÌ„gregation of people dispersed through the worlde agreyng together in the worde of God vsyng the sacramentes and al other thinges accordyng to the same Yorke This diffinitioÌ„ is of many wordes to no purpose Phil. I do not precisely diffyne the churche but declare vnto you what I thinke the church is Yorke Is the church visible or inuisible Phil. It is bothe visible and inuisible the inuisible church is of all the electes of God only the visible consisteth of bothe good and bad vsing all thinges in fayth according to Goddes word Yorke The churche is an vniuersal coÌ„gregacioÌ„ of faythful people in Christ through the worlde which this word catholik doth wel expresse for what is catholike elles doth it not signifie vniuersal Phil. The churche is diffined by S. Austen to be called catholike in this wyse Ecclesia ideo dicitur catholica quia vniuersaliter perfecta est in nullo claudicat The church is called therfore catholike bicause it is throughly perfyt and halteth in nothing Yorke Nay it is called catholyke bycause it is vniuersally receyued of all Chrystian nations for the most parte Phil. The churche was catholike in the Apostles tyme yet was it not vniuersally receyued of the world but bicause their doctrine which they had receyued of Christ was perfect and appointed to be preached and receaued of the hole world therfore it is caled the catholike fayth all persons receyuing the same be to be counted the catholike churche And S. Austine in an other place writeth ad Neophitos that the catholike church is the which beleueth a right Yorke Yf you will learne I wil shewe you by S. Austine writing against the Donatistes that he proueth the catholike churche by two principall pointes which is vniuersalitie and successioÌ„ of bishops in one apostolycal sea from tyme to tyme. Nowe thus wil I make myn argumeÌ„t The churche of Rome is vniuersal hath had his succession of bishops from tyme tyme Ergo it is the catholike churche howe answere you to this argumeÌ„t phil I deny the antecedent That the catholike churche is only knowen by vniuersalitie by succession of bishops Yorke I wil proue it And with that he brought furthe a boke which he had noted out of the doctors and turned to his commoÌ„ places therin of the churche recyted one or two out of S Austen specially out of his epistle written against the Donatistes Here S. Austen manifestly proueth that the Donatistes were not the catholike churche bicause they had no succession of bishops in their opinion neyther vniuersalitie and the same force hath S. Austins argument against you phil My lord I haue wayed the force of that argument before nowe And I perceiue it maketh nothing against me nether it commeth to your purpose for I will stand to the tryall of S. Austen for the apê“bacion of the catholike churche where of I am For S. Austine speaketh of vniuersalitie ioyned with veritie of faythful successours of Peter before corruption came into the churche and so yf you can deduce your argumeÌ„t for the sea of Rome now as S. Austen might do in his tyme I would say it might be of some force otherwise not Yorke S. Austine proueth the catholike churche