with Iohn Caluine as the obseruation of the Sabbath hath done I doubt not but that although he would not haue allowed of traditions yet hée would haue found you as sufficient proofe for any of them out of the word as hée hath done for the Sabbath for so great a mote in your eyes is the tradition of the Church that if your appetite serue to take liking of any point of doctrine grounded thereon you will make any homely shift rather than you wil acknowledge the true i Tradition a fountaine in Poperie fountaine from whence it springeth and no maruell for acknowledge the authoritie of those traditions which k If you may doe what you lift we cannot stand by the testimonie of all antiquitie were first deliuered by the Apostles and haue euer since béen obserued and deliuered ouer as it were from hand to hand by succession of Bishops and your heresie wil fall to the ground The next point of doctrine which you doe hold without warrant of scripture is that it is lawfull for Christians to eat bloud which was forbidden by the decrée of the first generall Councell where the Apostles were present l I will finde you scripture for this in Saint Pauls Epistles what scriptures haue you to doe contrarie to a Canon of so great a councell Pro. It is manifest that in the infancy of the church the Apostles hauing to do with the Iewes a people wonderfully addicted to the strict obseruation of their law did not thinke good to take from them all the ceremonies thereof at once but rather by little and little to seeke to winne them by tolerating many things for a time which in the Gospell were abolished and to that intent Paul did circumcise Timothy Acts 16. Pap. What warrant of scripture haue you to prooue that the commandement was giuen to be obserued but for a time in regard of the weaknesse of the Iewes Pro. Wee haue the word to prooue that the ceremoniall lawes were abolished by the death of Christ whereof abstayning from bloud is one and it is euident by the 15. of the Acts that the assembly of the Apostles in the first generall Councell at Ierusalem was vpon this occasion they of the circumcision which beleeued were greatly scandalized because the Gentiles who were ioyned with them in the vnitie of the same faith had vtterly reiected their law whervpon much controuersie did arise between them the Iewes contending that the beleeuing Gentiles ought to be circumcised and to obserue the lawe of Moses and the Gentiles to the contrarie For appeasing whereof the sayd Councell assembled and decreed that the Christians should abstaine from blood by eating whereof as it seemeth the weake Iewes were greatly offended intending thereby somewhat to satisfie the Iewes and yet not to lay too heauie a yoke vpon the Gentiles Thus you see how by the word the eating of bloud was prohibited vnto the Christians of those times and how by the word it is permitted vnto vs. Pa. By what word can you prooue that the m This fellow loues to beare himself speak else would he not make such an idle repetion eating of bloud which was both prohibited vnto the Iewes before the Gospell and to christians in the Gospell is now lawfull for vs to doe that the law prescribed to the Iewes concerning marriage within degrées of affinitie is still to be retained and that the like law which commandeth the brother to raise vp séede vnto his brother deceased without issue is to be abolished that it is lawfull for a Christian Magistrate to take away a mans life for 12. d. which was not lawfull by the law of God to doe but in such cases onely as in the same law are specified with many other such like instances too long to repeat when you haue tired your selfe in searching and wresting of scriptures you shall finde n Else are you deceiued no other warrant for them than the continuall practise and tradition of the Church Pro. It appeareth in the 5. Chapter of the 1. to the Corinths that Paul did disallow of marriage within degree of affinitie which is warrant sufficient for the retaining of the lawes prescribed to the Iewes on that behalfe Pap. You haue no such warrant out of that place for the text saith onely There is a o The fornication had not been so haynous if the Sonne in law might marry his Mother in law fornication among you not once named among the heathen that a man should haue his fathers wife it will be hard for you to prooue out of this place that the Fornication here specified was committed by a marriage betwéen the Sonne and the Mother in law p All this is but vaine talke that helpes him not awhit for the lawes of the Corinthians would permit no such marriage to be celebrated as it may be gathered out of the text for if such a fornication be not named among the heathen much lesse is it permitted by the lawes of the Corinths and therefore this Fornication was committed by hauing his fathers wife as a Concubine or a Whore and not as a wife as you imagine The Answere YOur Papist heere talkes in his sleepe of two mortall wounds which wee by our description of the Church haue giuen to our owne cause and therefore your description must bee had in memorie which as it bindeth the true Church to the voice of Christ sounding in the canonicall Scriptures so it giueth vs to vnderstand that the false Church heareth the voice of stangers and will not bee ruled by the written word of the Almightie yet notwithstanding the true Church may mistake the voice of Christ and so erre whereby the first wound is fully healed and if it should be graunted that the Church in generall cannot erre yet it followeth not that euerie one in particular that buildeth hay or stubble vpon the foundation is therefore no member of the Church And so the second wound which speakes of the exclusion of the Fathers Doctors is neither mortall nor sensible Now touching the first wound which cencerneth the Protestant and Puritane it is here brought to certaine particular points which I will speake of in order The first is the obseruation of the Sunday which you proue syllogistically out of the Scripture after this manner 1. The day whereon the Apostles did ordaine that Christians should weekely meet together to exercise themselues in hearing the word preached receiuing the Sacraments and giuing of Almes that same day did the Apostles ordaine to be the Sabbath of Christians 2. But the Apostles did ordaine that Christians should weekely assemble themselues vpon the first day of the weeke for the purpose before mentioned Ergo The Apostles did ordaine the first day of the weeke to be the Christians Sabbath Now where your Papist saith That if the Maior were true then the Apostles appointing moe dayes than one for such exercises should appoint moe Sabbaths in a wéeke
content to loose the Scripture so you may keepe your Traditions was sometimes made of the Apocalypse of S. Iohn and of other pieces of scripture but since the one was decided by a generall Councell and both is nowe receiued and beleeued of the vniuersal Church there remaineth no more doubt in the one than in the other the tradition leading vs to the trueth of them both Thus it appeareth as cleare as the Sunne that the Apostles left many thinges which are not contained in their writings by Tradition Secondly that many traditions left by the Apostles are now abolished Thirdly that that doctrine which is practised beleeued through the vniuersall Church hauing no ground out of the writings of the Apostles and which hath béene vniuersally practised from age to age and from Bishop to Bishop is a Tradition of the Apostles and to be followed and imbraced and consequently that all the doctrine of the Catholickes which is not warranted by Scripture is f That is to say vpon a fancy of your owne grounded vpon the Traditions of the Apostles and therefore to g How long till it please you to disaâ—ull them be followed and imbraced The Answere HEere your Papist takes paines to shew vs another point of his learning namely why some Traditions bee kept and some be out of date but very simply in my opinion for antiquity appointing both wednesdaies and frydaies to be fasted let him yeeld me any colour of reason or circumstance of times or states why the Church should reiect the one and obserue the other they were both in force with like authoritie with like consent in omnibus orbis terrarum regionibus in all the countries of the world Haeres â—5 as saith Epiphanius they were agreeable in all pointes to Augustines rule which is so certaine and direct saith he that it cannot misleade vs yet for all this wednesday fast must be packing and fryday onely must continue what Church I beseech you did this and when and vpon what graue consideration was it done it is not enough for him to talke his pleasure flyingly of the communitie of all things no where practised but at Ierusalem of the office of widowes still in force where it may be had prohibition of blood rerepealed by Saint Paul and such like but hee should shew vs what eare-marke one Tradition hath more then another why it may or should be cancelled and touching not fasting vpon Sundayes in Lent or any time else in the yeere it was generally obserued in the Catholike Church as the same Epiphanius witnesseth In compend doctr eccles haeres 70. epist ad Phil. lib. de coronae militis who telleth vs also in another place out of the Apostles Constitutions that he is accursed of God that fasteth vpon Sunday qui affligit animaÌ„ suam in Dominica maledictus est Deo Ignatius calleth theÌ„ that fast vpoÌ„ Sunday 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Christicides Christ killers Wherevnto Tertullian accordeth saying Epiph. 75. die Dominico ieiunium nefas ducimus wee count it a haynous sinne to faste on the Lords day yet notwithstanding the Romanists haue found some graue consideration or other to disanull it and to agree rather in that point with Aerius and Eustathius too whereof the one was an hereticke Socrates hist eccles lib. 2. cap. 33. whatsoeuer the other was apud Aerianos studium est vt in die Dominica ieiunent Eustathius dominicis diebus ieiunandum docuit the Aerians are carefull to fast on the Lords day Eustathius taught that men ought to fast on the Lords dayes And therefore your Papist I trow will hereafter find it best for him not to vpbraid vs any more with Aerius yea but when Traditions were alledged against the old heretikes neuer any of them denied the authoritie of some because other some were not obserued a great piece of matters we may not do it because heretickes did it not but can he shew vs what hereticke euer affirmed that of one bunch or heape of Traditions some may be taken and some refused and beeing all birds of a feather some may flie away quite and the rest may in no case flie after but flutter still in their nest I wis Augustines rule will not helpe in this case for fasting vpon wednesdayes and not fasting vpon Sundayes was as generally obserued euery where as any other Tradition that can be named nay what Tradition can be more strongly fenced than that of the age of Christ in Irenaeus Iren. lib. 2. cap. 39. 40 Euangelium omnes Seniores testantur qui in Asia apud Iohannem discipulum Domini conuenerunt idipsum tradidisse eis Iohannem permansit autem cum eis vsque ad Traiani tempora quidam autem eorum non solum Iohannem sed alios Apostolos viderunt haec eadeÌ„ ab ipsis audierunt testantur de huiusmodi relatione quibus magis oportet credi ne his talibus an Ptolomaeo qui Apostolos nunquam vidit c. The Gospell and all the Elders which were with Iohn the disciple of the Lord doe testifie that Iohn himselfe did deliuer it vnto them and hee taried with them til the time of Traiane now some of them sawe not onely Iohn but other disciples also and heard the same things of theÌ„ testifie of such a report whoÌ„ then ought we to beleeue whether such men as these or Ptolomey who neuer sawe the Apostles Ioh 6.57 Here is scripture out of S. Iohns Gospell and Tradition from Iohns mouth and others of his fellow Apostles for the exposition of the same here bee all the Elders of Asia that heard it with their owne eares and liued to the dayes of Irenaeus that writes it and yet for all this I thinke the church of Rome will as soone beleeue Ptolomey the hereticke as this Tradition The like may be sayd of the celebration of the feast of Easter in the churches of Asia where the Tradition from Saint Iohn and Saint Philip the Apostles to Polycarp and so forward was fresh in memorie obserued by many Bishops and Martyrs Euseb libr. 5. cap. 22. and confidently and resolutely auouched by Polycrates then angell of Ephesus and a great multitude of Bishops gathered together in Councell vnder their hands yet Victor the Pope made no account of it and within a while after Victors death most men think it was condemned for heresie Now I pray you tell vs what the Churches of Asia should doe in this case shall they receiue and reuerence this Tradition still as left them by their Pastors for their spirituall benefite what shall they receiue and reuerence heresy crossing the decision of a generall Councell so saith your Papist if I vnderstand him yet I doubt whether Bede or Pope Gregory or Austine the Monke will make good his saying nay himselfe within three or foure lines after eats his word againe for the contrary definition saith hee was receiued and beleeued of the vniuersall Church and
remained euer from the beginning now if it be sayd that hee meaneth the Church vnder the Gospell Rom. 15.8 Heb. 2.3 it will trouble him to prooue that the Apostles were the first planters of that Church in Iudaea seeing Christ himselfe was minister of the circumcision and first began to preach saluation before it was confirmed by them that heard him Moreouer that the Church was euer dispersed through the whole world by the ministery of the Apostles is sooner said than prooued for though Paul say that the fall of the Iewes was the riches of the world yet doth hee not meane the whole world simply without exception no more than Saint Luke doth when he saith that Augustus Caesar decreed that all the world should bee taxed Luk. 2.1 Math. 28.19 Luk. 24.47 Mark 16.15 Act. 16.6 c. 2. Cor. 10.13 c. and so must wee vnderstand all Nations in Matthew and Luke and all the world and euerie creature in Saint Markes Gospell for though the words be generall and without limitation yet the Apostles were kept in and guided more particularly by the holy Ghost Lastly it would bee agreed vpon what faith or beleefe your Papist meaneth when hee saith Doe you beléeue the catholicke Church whether iustifying or historicall For though he seeme to fetch his question out of the Creed wherein the articles of iustifying faith are recorded and so to make the catholicke Church inuisible for faith is the euidence of thinges not seene Heb. 11.1 yet when hee addeth planted by the Apostles in Iudaea c. he maketh it visible and so not to be beleeued Wherefore though this first question haue neither head nor foot yet thus in charitie I conceiue of it that it demaundeth whether we beleeue historically that there were orderly Churches or companies professing catholicke doctrine taught by the Apostles first among the Iewes and then among the Gentiles which profession and professors shall continue in one place or other to the worlds end if this be the question then haue you answered catholiquely first that you beleeue this and then secondly that the Protestants onely are the visible and knowne members of Gods church Now where it is demaunded in the third and fourth place how wee knowe this whether by outward meanes or by inspiration it is answered that the canonicall word of God doth so testifie and better witnesse than this we desire none and touching this word of God the Papists graunt all those bookes to bee canonicall which wee call canonicall though they adde other Bookes which wee admit not for grounds and foundations of faith but if wee cannot make good our profession by those bookes which both sides agree vpon and by the same bookes ouerthrow all that the Papists hold against vs at this day then I for my part will soone yeeld to the Pope and craue absolution vpon my knees Nowe forsooth the discerning of these canonicall Scriptures is called into question and they must bee subiected to the infirmity of man howbeit your answere though it be true yet is it insufficient for howsoeuer the vniforme consent of antiquitie is not to be neglected yet as our Sauiour saith Ioh. 5.36 that he had greater witnesse than the witnesse of Iohn so hath the holy Scripture greater witnesse than the witnesse of the Fathers namely the puritie and incontrolled antiquitie of it the Maiestie of the stile the conformablenesse of the precepts thereof to the lawe of nature and diuers other outward meanes noted by Master Caluine in his Institutions Lib. 1. Cap. 8. otherwise it were hard to tell how the men of Beroea and other ancient Christians discerned the Scripture in the Apostles time and after Act. 17.11.12 before any one of the ancient Fathers was borne or had written a syllable and herehence it is easily gathered how vaine the sixt question is for traditions are not confirmed by such pregnant euidence as the Scriptures are but hange in the winde vppon the conceits of men which may be deceiued and therfore a Christian man may well beleeue the one though he neglect the other Rom. 1.16 Heb. 4.12 1. Cor. 2.4 1. Cor. 14.24.25 Luk. 24.32 the powerfull working of the word of God described by Saint Paul and the Author to the Hebrewes and the Disciples of Christ in Saint Lukes Gospell are sufficient witnesses to the soule that Traditions which haue not the same image and superscription may be refused as the commandements and doctrines of men The Dialogue Sectio II. PA. Do you not perceiue that by this description of the Church you haue giuen two mortall wounds vnto your owne cause first you haue excluded the Protestant and Puritane out of the Church by you described and secondly you thrust out all the ancient Fathers and Doctors that euer flourished in the Church since the Apostles time Pro. The wounds you speake of surely are not mortall for as yet I feele them not Pap. They will prooue sensible when they come to the searching first you haue excluded the Protestant and Puritane who hold many points of Doctrine not a These points are warrantable by Scripture as it shall appeare warranted by the Scriptures as the obseruation of the Sunday in stead of Saturday which was the Sabbath of the Iewes that Christians may eat bloud notwithstanding the decrée of the first generall Councell to the contrarie that a christian Magistrate may punish theft with death which in a Iewish Magistrate was a breach of the commaundement that it is a greater offence in a christian to haue Concubines and many wiues then it was in Dauid who notwithstanding was a man according to Gods owne heart that Christians should be tied vnto the law prescribed vnto the Iewes for marriage within degrées of affinitie and not vnto the like law prescribed to the brother to raise vp séede vnto his brother dying without issue For all which you haue no warrant out of the scriptures Pro. For all these points of Doctrine wee haue sufficient warrant out of the booke of God and first concerning the Sabbath of Christians it is euident in the 20. of the Acts that the Christians did assemble themselues the first day of the weeke to heare Paul preach and to breake bread likewise in the 16. Chapter of Saint Pauls 1. Epistle to the Corinths it appeareth that Saint Paul did ordaine in all the Churches of Galatia that collection should be made for the poore vpon the first day of the weeke where hee doth also exhort the Corinthians to doe the like vpon the same day whereby it is euident that the Sunday was appointed by the Apostles to be the Christians Sabbath which is nothing else but a day of rest from labour and a day to bee bestowed in hearing the word preached breaking of bread whereby is meant administration of the Sacrament giuing of almes and other workes of deuotion and pietie for proofe whereof out of the places aboue alleaged I doe draw this
vnto you than to seeke so ridiculously f It is better prooued than you can proue your Traditions to prooue it by testimonie of Scripture The ancient Catholickes as you haue heard did vse the g They might better doe it then than you now authoritie of Tradition for the conuincing of Heresies yet was there neuer any of those Heretickes that denyed the authoritie of Traditions because the Catholicks did not obserue all the Traditions which were left by the Apostles Saint Augustine in the place by me aboue alleaged where he saith That we ought to beleeue many things which are not contained in the writings of the Apostles nor in the councels of their Successors as Traditions deliuered by the Apostles because they are obserued through the vniuersall Church doth giue vs an infallible rule for the true discerning of those Traditions of the Apostles which we are bound to follow embrace of which sort is all the doctrine of the Catholicke which is not found in the written Scriptures and surely this is so certaine and direct h This rule cracks the crowne of Poperie a rule that it cannot deceiue or mislead vs for can we imagine that a i The Apostles planted no weeds but the enuious man that loued Poperie Mat. 13.25 wéede not planted by the Apostles should spring vp ouer-spread the vniuersall Church remaine and continue from age to age be deliuered from Bishop to Bishop that so many generall Councels in the meane time should be assembled for the extirpation of such Bastard plants and that so many Catholicke Doctors in the meane time should write against heresies and yet that such a wéede should still k Antichrist did worke in Pauls time and must work still till he bee abolished by the brightnes of Christs comming 2. Thes 2 7.8 remaine without checke or contradiction Contrariwise these Traditions deliuered by the Apostles which are nowe generally abolished through the vniuersall Church as the Apostles who were directed by the Spirite of God did first institute them for the benefite of that state of the Church wherein they were ordained euen so when times haue altered the state of the Church the Apostles Successors directed by the same Spirit l Had they no other direction but the Spirite take heed you bee not an Anabaptist haue altered or abolished them for the like benefit of the Church In the Apostles time when the Ceremonies of the lawe were lately abolished the Iewes and the Gentiles intermingled and people flocked together from all parts of the world to heare the doctrine of the Apostles and to see the miracles which God did worke by them the communitie of all thinges the prohibition of eating of blood and the office of widowes was profitable for that state of the Church and m A grosâ—e ouersight vniuersally practised but when that state of the Church was altered all those ordinances were altered with no lesse benefite of the Church than before they were obserued Pro. If the generall practise of the vniuersall Church be the rule wherby to discerne the Doctrine which we ought to obserue by the Tradition then is all your Doctrine which is not grounded vpon the Scriptures not warranted by your owne rule because it is not practised vniuersally for the contrarie is practised by the greater part of Christendome Pap. This rule was sufficient before Martin Luthers time for then was the Catholicke Religion n It was neuer vniuersall and it was hereticall both before and after Luthers time vniuersall and therefore I desire to learne of you how since that time the sufficiencie thereof should be impaired for if then it was a fault in Luther to dissent from the vniuersall Church how can the same doctrine which was naught in him be good in his Disciples Pro. The Greeke Church did celebrate the Feast of Easter vpon the 14. day of the month of March by Tradition of the Apostles the Latine Church did celebrate the same feast vpon the Sunday nexte following after the fourteenth day of the Moone of March if the said 14. day happened not vpon the Sunday by Tradition also the like difference was betweene them for the vse of leauened or vnleauened bread in the administration of the Sacrament eyther of them grounding their doctrine vpon the Tradition now if you will confesse that the Traditions of the Apostles were not contrary vnto themselues you see how vncertaine and dangerous it is to ground our faith vpon vnwritten Traditions Pa. a A paultry cauill The Lutherans and Caluinists hold contrary opinions either of them grounding his doctrine vpon the word of God will you thereupon conclude that it is a dangerous matter for vs to ground our faith vpon the worde of God Pro. The comparison is not alike for in the one case the question is whether of them hath the true Tradition and in the other whether of them doth rightly interpret the Scripture which both parties do agree to be the word of God Pa. If I had said how dangerous it is for euery man to ground his faith vpon b VVhy not his owne as well as another mans I must like it and so make it my owne before I can beleeue it his owne interpretation you had béene preuented of this answere but you doe mistake the matter in part for it appeareth by Epiphanius haeres 70. that this difference betwéene the Latine and Greeke Church concerning the celebration of Easter did grow vpon c As though the Apostles did not pract se it in their owne persons in both Churches but onely deliuer it by TraditioÌ„ the interpretation of the Tradition but the rule before mentioned prescribed by Saint Augustine for the discerning of those Traditions which wée are bound to imbrace and follow doth frée you from all this supposed danger for if the question be of such a point of doctrine which is not conteined in the word of God and yet notwithstanding is practised of some particular Churches people or nations but not vniuersally through the whole world such a point of doctrine wée are not bound by the said rule to receiue as a Tradition left by the Apostles yet notwithstanding if such a point of doctrine bée not contrary to the word of God those churches or countries where such doctrine is practised ought to receiue and reuerence the same as a doctrine left vnto them by their spirituall pastors and superintendents for their spirituall benefit concerning which you shall finde sufficient for your satisfaction in those aduertisements set downe by S. Bede which Pope Gregory sent vnto S. Austine the Monke for answere of this very question concerning the diuersitie of customes vsed in diuers nations in matters of Church gouernement But let it bee d You cannot chuse but graunt it granted that it was doubtfull for a time whether the Greeke or the Latine Church did obserue the right Tradition the like doubt and question c You can be
so by consequent of the Churches of Asia notwithstanding all he said before of their spirituall Pastors and Superintendents shall I now tell you what I thinke verily if this Tradition of the feast of Easter and that other of the age of Christ so credibly reported so confidently auouched deliuered ouer to so few hands and so short a succession were found hollow and false at the heart in the very nexte age that followed the Apostles and at length as the receiued opinion is condemned for heresie I know not how a man should frame himselfe to beleeue such Traditions to be sound and vndefiled which haue no such pregnant euidence and haue runne through the hands of so many pitchmongers as haue liued successiuely so many hundred yeeres after the death of Victor and Irenaeus Yea but saith he this was not vniuersally receiued and obserued but onely of those Churches in Asia and therefore we are not bound by S. Austines rule to receiue it as a Tradition from the Apostles well then succession from hand to hand and Bishop to Bishop in particular Churches is not sufficient to make a Tradition apostolicall let him hold that without partialitie as well in Italy as in Asia Howbeit Polycrates and those worthy Bishops and Martyrs of Asia may not be ruled by S. Austines rule and if that Epistle of Polycrates subscribed Synodically by so great a multitude of Bishops may be credited this Tradition cannot chuse but be Apostolicall and so vniuersall in nature though particular in practise but what shall wee doe on the other side with the Tradition of the West Church which was further fetched then the other by so many winters and sommers as S. Iohn liued after Peter and Paul that is to say thirtie winters at the least and so many sommers wherein this westerne Tradition might well bee either Sunne-burnt or weather beaten shall we follow S. Austines rule here too and so beleeue neither the one nor the other to be Apostolicall ware that friend Papist if ye meane to goe for a good Catholicke yet it is cleare that the Tradition of the west Church was not vniuersally receiued no more then the other of the East before the Nicene Councell therefore either S. Austines rule was then no rule or else no Christian for the space of 300. yeeres was bound to beleeue that the one was left by S. Peter and S. Paul no more then the other by S. Philip and S. Iohn nay further we reade not that any Canon was made contra Quartadecimanos in the Nicene Councell whereby Epiphanius or any other father should score them vp for heretickes but onely that it was thought meete the Tessaredecatites beeing few Euseb in vita Constant. lib. 3 cap 13. 17. Socr. lib. 5. cap. 20. 21. Sozom. lib. 7. cap. 18. 19. Can. 8. Apost should yeelde to the greater number now whether they yeelded or yeelded not we haue no sure euidence onely we may strongly coniecture they did not yeeld by that we reade of this matter in Socrates and Sozomen as for that peremptory magisterial Canon which casteth euery Bishop Presbyter and Deacon out of the Church if he celebrate his Easter ante vernum aequinoctium cum Iudaeis it is not knowne where or when or by whom or what it was enacted and so consequently where or when or by whom or what it should be obeyed Wherefore I for my part cannot disallow the resolution of Socrates that the feast of Easter was neuer imposed vpon the Church by the Apostles but brought to obseruation by the free choise and liking of Christian nations and so continued by long custome till by the brawling and immoderatenesse of some wayward men the Church was constrayned to worke out her owne peace by vniformitie Now to Augustines rule beside a number of instances which may be brought against it as namely the dignitie of Alexandria ouer Aegypt Lybia and Pentapolis and the dignitie of Rome ouer the West prouinces which the Councell of Nice groundeth neither vpon Scripture Apostle Can. 6. Ierom ad Euagr in epist ad Tot. Aug. epist 19. nor Councell but old custome as also the appropriating of the name Bishop to the chiefe Ministers wherein the custome of the Church no Tradition or Councell generally preuayled to this rule I say that it cracks the very crowne of the popish church for nothing not conteined in the scriptures could be vniuersally obserued but eyther Traditions from the Apostles or else the Decrees of plenarie Councels it is cleere that the Popes vniuersall power is shutte out of doores and therefore to requite the intricate Dilemma he talkes of let me reason thus with your Papist The Pope either hath power to impose decrees and constitutions vpon the vniuersall Church of Christ or else he hath not if hee haue then Austines rule is crooked and may deceiue vs if he haue not then the Popes vniuersall shephardship ouer the whole Church is come to nothing Howbeit I beseech you marke further how hee hudleth vp contraries and so marreth the fashion of his owne rule for if all things obserued vniuersally must be followed and imbraced as Traditions from the Apostles if they bee not contained eyther in scriptures or Councels then no man may presume vpon any alteration of states and times to abolish them if they may abolish them and alter them then are they not bound to follow imbrace them adde hereunto that as the Apostles successors as hee saith might and haue alteted and abolished apostolicall Traditions generally practised in the vniuersall Church so I would see some reason why they may not stil vpon the like alteration of circumstances abolish more of them and so it will follow that all the doctrine of the Catholicks not found in scripture hangs vpon circumstances and may if it please the Apostles successors be quite abolished hath he not spun a faire threed thinke you that thus indangereth his owne religion yet he croweth lowd after all this fond feather-fluttering that all is as cleare as the Sunne yet neuer durst any Catholicke father or church one or other set downe this remnant of Traditions and vnite it to the body of the canonicall Scripture which infallibly demonstrateth that all is not as cleare as the Sunne and it is further to bee obserued how hee is faine to clowt out Saint Austines rule with a new patch which marres all for when he saw that vniuersall practise is not enough to proue a Tradition apostolicall vnlesse it be traced still downeward from the Apostles to our dayes Are kept he is not content with Custodiuntur which he findes in Austine but addeth haue bin vniuersally practised from age to age and from Bishop to Bishop which no man aliue is possibly able to make good in any one vnwritten Tradition popish or catholicke vnlesse the Church had continually appointed in euery age such an one as Sir Francis Drake that should trauell all the worlde ouer from
Dialogue Sectio VII SAint Austine Pompous funerals great troups of mourners sumptuous monuments these doe bring some cōfort such as it is vnto the liuing but they are not auaileable vnto the dead but we ought a VVhat is it that puts the matter out of doubt let that be shewed and we will doubt no longer not to doubt but that the dead are relieued by the prayers of the holy Church by the holesome sacrifice and by almes which are giuen that it might please our Lord to deale more mercifully with them than their sinnes haue deserued This custome the vniuersall Church doth obserue being deliuered by Tradition a Austine saith a patribus not ab Apostolis from the Apostles that whereas at the time of the sacrifice commemoration is made of b All communicants and onely communicants are prayed for is this catholicke doctrine think you all soules departed in the communion of the body and blood of Christ they should be prayed for and that the sacrifice also should be offered for them de verb. Apost sermon 32. We ought c Nor wee ought not to say it vnlesse we could proue it not to deny that the soules of the dead are relieued by the deuotion of their liuing friends when as eyther the sacrifice of our Redéemer is offered for them or almes giuen in the Church Enchir. ad Laurent prope fin When the Martyrs are mentioned at the altar of God they are not prayed for but d VVhat all confessors bishops popes and all all other which are dead which are there remembred are prayed for de verb. Apostol serm 17. When the sacrifice whether it bee of the altar or of almes déedes is offered for such as are dead e VVhy not before as well as after you may as well offer for the vnbaptized as for those that be valdé mali after Baptisme for those that be very good they be thanksgiuing for those which be not very euil they be propitiatory for those which be very euill although they profit not the dead yet are they some comfort vnto the liuing Dulcitij question quest 2. Reade his epistle ad Aurelium Episcopum and his Treatise de cura pro mortuis This was no doubt S. Austines f Or else you know not what faith is faith which he wrote taught and practised in his church and which was at that time generally receiued in the Latine Churches The Answere AVstine belike is plentifull in this question for we haue here foure seuerall places out of his workes which we will briefely runne ouer as they come In the first Austine is forced to turne his tale for whereas before where this place was alledged for Tradition prayer for the dead was no more but a Tradition of the fathers here Austine is intreated to say that it was deliuered by Tradition from the Apostles me thinks your Papist should know that our writers alleage this verie place of Austine to shew that this manner of praying was receiued of the Church long after the Apostles time Decad. 4. serm 10. as for example Bullinger in his Decades Illud dissimulare non possum saith he id quod isti traditionem Apostolorum appellant S. Augustinum nuncupare traditionem patrum ab ecclesia receptam nam sermone de verbis Apostoli 32. hoc à patribus inquit traditū vniuersa obseruat ecclesia c. This I cannot hide that that which they call a traditō of the Apostles Quest 1. Augustine calleth a tradition of the Fathers receiued by the Church see Serm. de verbis Apostoli 32. This saith he being deliuered by the Fathers doth the whole Church obserue And a litle after cōcludeth His significantius innuere videtur hunc ritū orandi pro defunctis haud dubie post longa internalla à temporibus Apostolorū ab ecclesia receptū esse By these words he seemeth more throughly to insinuate that this custome of praying for the dead was without all doubt receiued by the Church a long space after the Apostles times Wherefore this budgening and setting downe quid pro quo in so materiall a testimonie argueth a peruerse resolution rather to quench the fire of truth than the stubble and straw of our errours should be consumed But for answere I say that Austine himselfe doubted of that which here he saith we ought not to doubt of thus he writes in the questions of Dulcitius Siue in hac vita tantum homines ista patiuntur siue etiam post hanc vitam talia quaedam iudicia subsequuntur non abhorret quantùm arbitror à ratione veritatis iste intellectus huius sententiae Whether men suffer these things onely in this life or whether after this life some such iudgements follow this vnderstanding of this sentence is not without some shew of truth as I suppose Also in his Bookes De Ciuitate Dei Lib. 21. cap. 26 Siue ibi tantum siue hic ibi siue ideo hic vt non ibi saecularia quamuis à damnatione venialia concremantem ignem transitoriae tribulationis inueniant non redarguo quia forsitan verum est Whether thinges committed in this world though veniall in respect of damnation doe find a transitorie fire of tribulation here onely or here and there or therfore here because not there I seek not to conuince because perhaps it is true and in his Enchiridion Cap. 69. Tale aliquid post hanc vitam fieri incredibile non est vtrum ita sit quaeri potest That some such thing is done after this life it is not incredible and whether it bee so done it is a question Now then if Austine himselfe doubted whether men be punished transitorily after this life I knowe your Papist wil giue vs leaue to doubt whether the dead be releeued by our prayers Moreouer it is here likewise to be obserued that no soule were praied or offered for or thought worthy to be remembred at the Altar but such as departed in the communion of the bodie and blood of Christ Lib. 1. Contr. Iulian. lib. 1 de peccat merit remiss Concil 6. cap. 83. Carth. Con. 3. cap. 6. which includeth a generall beleefe of those times that none but Communicants could be saued and therefore Austine vrgeth it as hotly as any other tradition that the Eucharist as well as Baptisme was necessary to the saluation of all euen of new borne babes wherof it cōmeth that the bread wine was then thrust into the mouthes of Infants and dead carkasses both in the Greeke and Latine Churches Forasmuch then as this place of Austine teacheth two points of generall doctrine one that prayers Sacrifices and almes doe profite the dead the other that none can bee saued but Communicants and so prayers and sacrifices and doles to bee made for no other we thinke our selues no more bound to receiue the one at Austines hand than Papists thinke themselues bound to receiue the other Furthermore these
euangelium demonstrat inferos intelligimus nouissimum quadrantem modicum delictum mora resurrectionis illic luendū interpretamur nemo dubitauit animam aliquid pensare penes inferos salua resurrectionis plenitudine per carnem quoque When we vnderstand by the prison which the Gospell speaketh of hell interpret the last farthing a small sin to be done away by the delaying of the resurrection no man will doubt that the soule doth pay something in hell leauing the rest to be fulfilled at the resurrection by the flesh also Here we finde somewhat like purgatorie though I dare not say it is the same but let it be so if you will Now see what followeth in the same place immediately Hoc Paracletus frequentissimè commendauit si quis sermones eius ex agnitione charismatum promissorum admiserit This the Paraclete hath often commended if a man admit his saying by acknowledging the promised graces Where you may learne that doctrine was knockt into Tertullians head by his familiar that is by the Paraclete of Montanus Yea but why dare you not say that this prison is Purgatorie doe you aske why Marry the verie wordes make me to stand doubtfull namely per carnem quoque by the flesh also which to my vnderstanding import that the soule only must not feele smart but caro quoque the flesh also and good reason it should be so for if nothing can enter into the kingdome of heauen before it bee purified and wee know that the modica delicta small sinnes as well as other capitall sins taint the body as well as the soule wee must needes deuise a Purificatorie for the one as well as a Purgatorie for the other and so hold with Tertullian that the soule before the resurrection shall suffer per se by it selfe and after the resurrection per carnem quoque else all is marred Robert Bellarmine the new Cardinall saw this place of Tertullian I dare say for him yet he passeth it ouer slightly citeth another place for purgatory out of the same booke Ille id est angelus executionis te in carcerem mandet infernum Bellar. de purg lib. 1. cap. 4. cap. 6. vnde non dimittaris nisi modico quoque delicto mora resurrectionis expenso He that is to say the Angel of execution shall cast thee into infernall prison whence thou shalt not come out till euery little sinne be paid for by the delay of the resurrection This place he cites in two seuerall places and giues vs a speciall note to carry away with vs Nota solum esse manendum in carcere purgatorij ad summū vsque ad resurrectionē But alas good father Robert the other place marres the fashion of this note for it addes Salua resurrectionis plenitudine per carnē quoque which giueth vs a new note that both soule and body must likewise suffer in this infernall prison after the resurretion I doubt when all is come to all this prison will prooue to be hell not purgatory yet such a hell as the millinarie heresie dreamed to be temporall not eternall wherefore I hope your papist will no more seeke the beleefe and practise of the Church in Tertullian Ierom contra Heluid who was not of the Church nor looke any more in Tertullians mouth for his age telling vs that he liued neere vnto the Apostles till he can proue his doctrine to be apostolicall The names of Epiphanius Ambrose Austine and Chrysostome are repeated heere for a shew but you haue heard what priuate conference I had with them whereunto adde that their witnesse being single men cannot iustly be accepted for a publike record of religion whereunto Luther of any other seruant of God may not oppose himselfe they liued in a manner altogether they could not see ouer farre either before or behind or about them neither is it conuenient that wee should make an idoll of mans authoritie a great sort of fathers agree that Elias shall come before the last day Mat. 17.12 yet I had rather beleeue Christ that saith Elias is come already many of the fathers say the wicked a thousand yeres after domes day Lib. 2. cap. 39. 40. shal be saued yet by your leaue I had rather say otherwise Irenaeus held that Christ was nere fiftie yeres old when he was put to death and proued it by the common consent of all the Bishops of Asia that learned it of S. Iohn yet may we not beleeue that this was then beleeued through the vniuersall Church Tertullian in his Apologie for the Christian Churches of his time saith that the soule cannot suffer any thing Sine stabili materia id est earne Yet may we not beleeue that Christians beleeued so through the world The same father saith in the same Apologie that Christians did thē publikely pray Pro mora finis yet were it hard to say after him Apoc. 22.20 that the whole Church praied against the appearing of Christ in the clouds to vanquish death and to accomplish their redemption S. Iohn prayed Come Lord Iesu come quickely And therefore I dare not say the Church euer prayed Stay Lord Iesu and come slowly Howbeit let the Catholike fathers haue all the credite honor that bare men be capable of we will not stand against it but to throw down so many kingdoms so many dukedoms so many flourishing Common-weales so many free cities Churches as if the bare affirmation of one man did ouerrule them it is too much indignitie if Luthers bare affirmation be so mightie in operation let not your Papist his companions call any more for miracles to confirme his vocation but if it be the breath of Gods mouth that began in him in his time more powerfully to consume Antichrist then in former ages thē feare friend Papist I say feare the reuenging hand of God who wil not suffer his power to be derided The Dialogue Sectio XI Purgatorie ALl the proofes before alleaged for prayer for the dead may as well serue for the proofe of Purgatorie for such is the relation betweene the one and the other as a This is but a conceit looke the answere they cannot be separated For why doe wee pray for the dead the answere is made by S. Chrysostome that b Some prayd to that ende without warrant and some to other endes c. as shall appeare they may attaine to rest that they may find the iudge fauourable whereof it followeth that they are in a place where they want rest where they haue néed of refreshing yet I will alleage some few places for the peculiar proofe thereof Saint Austine expounding the place of Saint Paul the third to the Corinths if any man shall build vpon this foundation c. saith thus c These places are not Austines many there be that by misunderstanding this place doe deceiue themselues with a false securitie beléeuing that if they doe build vpon the
doctrine by the infalliblenesse of the outward senses 1. Iohn 1.1 saying that which we haue heard which wee haue seene with these our eies which wee haue looked vpon these hands haue handled of that word of life that I say which we haue seene and heard declare we vnto you not that you may be Heretickes and Atheists but that you may haue felloship with vs and that our fellowship may be with the father and with his sonne Iesus Christ Now touching humane reason I would gladly know whether our Papist haue framed his arguments with it or without it if with it let him take heede he be not an Hereticke or an Atheist if without it I doubt he shall hardly mooue either Hereticke or Catholicke to be of his opinion much lesse conuert Infidels It were strange doctrine to teach men neuer to vse the helpe of humane reason because Saint Paul saith Rom. 1 19. the wisedome of this world if foolishnesse for though the mysterie of our redemption in Christ Iesu be farre beyond the reach of mans wisedome yet the same Paul saith that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that you may be knowen concerning God is ingraffed in the heart of man whereby Gods eternall power and Godhead shining in his works is knowen vnto him and Peter Lumbard Lib. 3 dist 24. his owne Prophet saith Quaedā fide creduntur quae intelliguntur naturali ratione Something 's are beleeued by faith which are vnderstood by naturall reason But to make short worke Paul saith indeed that the naturall man perceiueth not the things of the spirit of God and God forbid we should denie it but yet the same Apostle presently after saith 1. Cor. 2.14 c. againe the spirituall man discerneth all things now let him shew vs that papists are spirituall men and Protestants naturall men and then we will vayle the bonnet of his insensible and vnreasonable assertions otherwise we may not become fooles and run mad at his pleasure Againe where he disputeth that an infidell may reiect the resurrection of the dead the mystery of the Trinitie the eternitie of the sonne of God the comming in of Christ in his naturall bodie to his disciples the doores being shut and such like Articles of our Christian faith as well as we may reiect the reall presence in the Sacrament you may see the pure simplicitie of this man who makes Christs entrance through a shut doore to be an Article of faith Howbeit his master of sentences findeth documents of the Trinitie in things created and Saint Austine saith Lib. 1. dist 3. De Trinitate lib. 6. cap. 20. Oportet vt creatorem per ea quae facta sunt intellecta conspicientes Trinitatem intelligamus It behooueth vs that we beholding in vnderstanding the creator by the things which were created should vnderstand the Trinitie Againe Tertullian hath written a booke De resurrectione carnis and Athenagoras a Christian Philosopher hath written another 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Of the resurrection of the dead Tertullian Athenagoras wherein this article of faith is soundly prooued by humane reason and it being a sure ground that God cannot be without his power and wisedome and that the father is Fons origo Deitatis as sol is fons origo lucis The fountaine and originall of the Godhead as the sunne is the fountaine and originall of light It will not be so hard to conceiue by reason that the son of God may be begotten yet coeternal with God his father but I shal not need to labor further in this point there is a Treatise written purposely of this argument by Philip Morney a noble man of Fraunce Phil. Morney wherin you may see how far reason may wade in these such like articles of Christianity therfore if an infidel flie to humane reason he shal haue some stay to leane vpō in matters of faith wheras neither he nor we nor any man els liuing can find any possibility of reason or sense to induce vs to beleue the real presence Howbeit he may do well to teach vs from what an infidell should appeale to the arbiterment of humane reason is it like that any man will presse an infidell with Scriptures Fathers Councels so to driue him to appeale to reason Paul saith that prophecying serueth not for infidels but for them which beleeue 1. Cor. 14.22 where the Apostle meaneth such infidels as be altogether strangers from Christian doctrine and must be won by signes not by prophecying as for Fathers Councels we may not prefer them to Paul and Peter in the conuersion of an infidell and besides that infidels will make more account of their own Prophets Epimenides Menander and Aratus Tit. 1.12 Plato Hesiode and Homer such like than of our Fathers and Councels yet notwithstanding if we should confesse that other matters of faith cannot be measured by humane reason without danger of heresie yet if you cleaue to his faith not to your owne reason in the reall presence you cannot choose but be an hereticke Dial 2. in con The Symboles or signes of the Lords bodie after the priest hath inuocated are charged made other shings and this doth Theodoret euidētly declare in one of his Dialogues where the hereticke saith Symbola dominici corporis sanguinis post inuocationē sacerdotis mutantur et alia fiunt And this he speakes of a substantial change as our Papists do at this day but the Catholicke answereth Signa mysticapost sanctificationem non recedunt à natura sua manent enim in priori substantia figura forma Thus hath Theodoret a learned and auncient father of the Greeke Church written almost 1200. yeeres agoe giuing cleerely to vnderstand that the doctrine of transubstantiation was not Catholicke in his time but hereticall what the Greeke Church thinketh of it at this day may better be learned by the last Session of the Councell of Florence than by the bold face of this Papist whose head is so full of vniforme consents and arguments of credibilitie Council Florent sess vltima that he forgets how many of the Euangelists speake of the Lords supper See then what ill lucke this poore man hath that both his vniforme consents faile him the one confuted by Theodoret and the Councell of Florence the other by Saint Iohns Gospel where you shall not finde one word spoken of the Sacrament all the foure Euangelists quoth he how I pray you in thought word or deed marry saith he in direct and plaine words Indeed the words of three Euangelists are direct and plaine against him but the fourth saith nothing Matthew Marke say that the Sacrament of Christs blood after consecration is the fruit of the vine Math. 26.29 Mar. 14.25 cap. 22 20. and Luke saith that the cup is the new Testament in his blood now if you vnderstand by the cup not wine but reall blood it will follow
the contrary Pa. It fareth with you in this businesse much like as with a man that hath lost his way who the more hée bestirreth himselfe the further hee is from the end of his iourney your heresie hath beene pursued and chased through all the doubles windinges which it can possibly imagine and is now retyred like a crafty foxe into the burrow where it was first littered bredde which is the iudgement and censure of humane reason whereunto as vnto a supreame iudge it doth now appeale from the authoritie of c Non potest per vllam Scripturam probari Roffensis contra captiuit Babiloni i. It cannot be proued by any scripture scriptures fathers and Councels and surely this is the very fountaine and seminary of all atheisme heresye for if I should labor to instruct an Infidell in the principall points of christian religion as the resurrection of the very same bodies after they bée consumed to dust ashes that the Father is God the Sonne God and the holy Ghost God and yet that they thrée are but one God without confounding of the persons that the Sonne is eternall and yet begotten of his father that d I maruell how this can he shewed to be a principall point of christian religion Christ came in vnto his disciples the e Are the Protestants hereticks for so interpreting what if he came in at the window or chimney or louer hole Non dicitur quod intrauit per ianuas clausas c vide Durand lib. 4. dist 44. q. 6. 1. It is not said that he entered by the doore being shut doores being shut not as the Protestants interpret the doores opening vnto him but after a miraculous and supernatural manner as S. Austine expoundeth it Tractatu 121. euangelij S. Iohannis all which is as contrary to the capacitie of humane reason as the reall presence in the sacrament if the Infidell in this case should appeale vnto the same iudges might he not with the same reason and by the iudgement of the same arbitrators as well reiect these and many like articles of our christian faith as you doe the reall presence if the imperfection of mans vnderstanding be such in the comprehension of the workes of nature that as f VVe must needs yeeld if such authors speake against vs. So is not Gods word 2. Tim. 3.16 Psa 119.105 Socrates saith Hoc solum scimus quod nihil scimus this one thing wee doe know that wee doe know nothing how great is the imperfection thereof in the comprehension of things supernatural being so farre remote from our senses and vnderstanding the wisedom of man as S. Paul saith is foolishnesse with God and therefore a farre incompetent iudge is it to determine of things appertaining to God from this fountaine sprang first the heresie of Arius who not being able to comprehend how the Sonne of God could be begotten when as there was no time of his begetting chose rather to rend himselfe from the vnitie of g That 's not the popish church Belike the catholicke church can vnderstand things that be aboue vnderstanding without the scriptures helpe the catholicke Church and to wrest the Scriptures to his owne capacitie than to submit his owne vnderstanding in things aboue vnderstanding vnto the censure of the Catholicke Church the sure rocke and pillar of trueth and whosoeuer he be that in matters of his faith consulteth with flesh and blood measuring the same by rule of humane reason must needs be an hereticke if not an atheist if you demaund how the body of Christ is in the Sacrament I answere I h No nor any man els liuing cannot tell because it is ineffable neither can I conceiue it because it is incomprehensible if you doe alleage impossibilitie I answere that i So answered Praxeas the hereticke vide Tertul. nothing is to God impossible if you require arguments of credibilitie you haue as many and as great as for any one article of our christian faith you haue the vniforme consent of the k I pray you where doth S. Iohn say hoc est corpus meum or what other plaine and direct words hath he or any of the greeke churches foure Euangelistes in direct and plaine wordes you haue the vniforme consent practise of the l Gréek churches continued and remaining at this day so that there is nothing wanting but the assistance of Gods holy spirite which you are to séeke and craue be continuall and hearty prayer The Answere OVr Protestant here is worse afraid than hurt the big lookes of his aduersary made him afraid but his withered armes could not hurt him hee telleth vs with full mouth and face enough that he will proue the sacrifice of the masse which implyeth transubstantiation by the consent of all ancient fathers and the vniforme practise of the vniuersall Church but when all is come to all hee runnes away and leaues this withered conclusion behind him ergo the sacrifice of the Church was either the masse or the Protestants communion I trow such arguments as these may soone bee answered but now that our Protestant calleth forth sense and reason to witnesse against him and to demonstrate infallibly that his assertion is not to be beleeued he comes backe againe and intreats him to shut his eies and suffer himselfe to be hudwinked and then he will take paines to lead him into a popish ditch If we relie vpon the censure of our senses and reason saith he wee are in the hie way to all Atheisme and heresie Iohn 20.27 29. a strange thing that that which was a meane to faith in Christs time should now become a fountaine of heresie our Sauiour saith to Thomas because thou hast seene thou beleeuest and againe put thy finger here and see my hands and put forth thy hand put it into my side and be not faithlesse but beleeue and in another place he saith Luke 24.38 why are yee troubled and wherefore doe doubts arise in your hearts behold my hands and my feete for it is I my selfe handle me and see for a spirit hath not flesh and bones as you see me to haue Now I beseech you tell me if the consecrated bread had a mouth to speake as it hath an inuisible mouth if Papists may be beleeued and should say to vs why are yee troubled and wherefore doe doubts arise in your hearts behold my forme and colour handle taste and see for the body of Christ is not round white sweete heauie thicke grosse earthie as you taste feele and see me to be Shall wee answere that this is the fountaine of heresie and Atheisme No by your leaue answer so who will and who dare this shall be my warrant to settle my conscience and without further trouble of minde or doubt of heart to beleeue that it is very bread and not the body of Christ Moreouer the holy Apostle S. Iohn assureth vs of the certentie of his