Selected quad for the lemma: doctrine_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
doctrine_n	ancient_a	church_n	teach_v	3,391	5	6.3973	4	true

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A00791	An answer to a pamphlet, intituled: The Fisher catched in his owne net In vvhich, by the vvay, is shevved, that the Protestant Church was not so visible, in al ages, as the true Church ought to be: and consequently, is not the true Church. Of which, men may learne infallible faith, necessarie to saluation. By A.C.	A. C.; Champney, Anthony, 1569?-1643?, attributed name.; Sweet, John, 1570-1632, attributed name.; Floyd, John, 1572-1649, attributed name.; Fisher, John, 1569-1641, attributed name.	1623 (1623)	STC 10910.4; ESTC S107710	44,806	106

posteriori_fw-la be_v more_o demonstrative_a than_o a_o priori_fw-la m._n fisher_n do_v not_o speak_v perhaps_o he_o may_v say_v that_o a_o proof_n a_o posteriori_fw-la do_v better_a demonstrate_v to_o we_o then_o a_o priori_fw-la not_o mean_v in_o general_a to_o prefer_v a_o logical_a demonstration_n a_o posteriori_fw-la before_o that_o which_o be_v a_o priori_fw-la but_o that_o such_o a_o proof_n a_o posteriori_fw-la as_o he_o in_o this_o present_a question_n require_v and_o as_o the_o question_n itself_o exact_v will_v better_o demonstrate_v or_o show_v to_o all_o sort_n of_o man_n which_o be_v the_o true_a church_n than_o any_o proof_n which_o d._n feat_o or_o d._n white_n can_v make_v a_o priori_fw-la to_o prove_v the_o protestant_a church_n to_o be_v the_o true_a church_n as_o shall_v be_v show_v when_o need_n be_v hereafter_o at_o this_o present_a it_o may_v suffice_v to_o say_v to_o that_o which_o d._n feat_o now_o object_v against_o the_o proof_n take_v from_o visibilitie_n that_o although_o all_o kind_n of_o visible_a professor_n do_v not_o argue_v right_a faith_n yet_o want_v of_o visible_a professor_n argue_v want_v of_o christ_n true_a church_n for_o suppose_v it_o to_o be_v true_a which_o even_o d._n feat_o himself_o here_o say_v according_a to_o the_o protestant_n relator_n viz._n we_o know_v by_o the_o promise_v of_o god_n in_o the_o scripture_n that_o the_o church_n which_o maintain_v the_o true_a faith_n shall_v have_v always_o professor_n more_o or_o less_o visible_a and_o as_o m._n fisher_n further_o prove_v in_o one_o of_o the_o foresay_a paper_n give_v to_o the_o old_a gentleman_n before_o this_o meeting_n so_o visible_a as_o their_o name_n in_o all_o age_n may_v be_v show_v out_o of_o good_a author_n suppose_v also_o out_o of_o d._n whitaker_n contra_fw-la dur._n l._n 7._o p._n 472._o that_o whatsoever_o be_v foretold_v by_o the_o ancient_a prophet_n of_o the_o propagation_n amplitude_n and_o glory_n of_o the_o church_n be_v most_o clear_o witness_v by_o history_n and_o suppose_v last_o out_o of_o d._n john_n white_a in_o his_o way_n p._n 338._o that_o thing_n past_o can_v be_v show_v to_o we_o but_o by_o history_n suppose_v all_o this_o i_o say_v it_o be_v most_o apparent_a that_o if_o there_o can_v be_v produce_v as_o there_o can_v name_n of_o protestant_n or_o of_o any_o other_o professor_n of_o christian_a faith_n in_o all_o age_n out_o of_o history_n to_o who_o god_n promise_v agree_v beside_o those_o which_o be_v know_v roman_n catholic_n not_o protestant_n nor_o any_o other_o but_o only_o the_o roman_a catholic_n be_v the_o true_a church_n of_o christ_n which_o teach_v the_o true_a faith_n and_o of_o which_o all_o sort_n be_v to_o learn_v infallible_a faith_n necessary_a to_o salvation_n but_o as_o for_o the_o argument_n which_o d._n feat_o will_v needs_o persuade_v we_o not_o to_o be_v petitio_fw-la principy_a but_o demonstratio_fw-la a_o priori_fw-la viz._n that_o church_n who_o faith_n be_v eternal_a and_o perpetual_a and_o unchanged_a be_v so_o visible_a as_o the_o catholic_a church_n ought_v to_o be_v and_o as_o the_o popish_a church_n by_o m._n fisher_n be_v pretend_v to_o be_v but_o the_o faith_n of_o protestant_n church_n be_v eternal_a perpetual_a and_o unchanged_a ergo_fw-la the_o protestant_n church_n be_v so_o visible_a as_o the_o catholic_a church_n ought_v to_o be_v and_o the_o popish_a church_n be_v pretend_v by_o m._n fisher_n to_o be_v this_o argument_n as_o it_o be_v set_v down_o be_v so_o far_o from_o be_v a_o demonstration_n who_o property_n be_v to_o convince_v the_o understanding_n as_o it_o be_v not_o a_o probable_a or_o moral_a persuasion_n for_o i_o be_o very_o persuade_v that_o no_o wise_a man_n not_o already_o possess_v with_o protestant_a opinion_n will_n or_o can_v be_v so_o much_o as_o moral_o convince_v or_o in_o any_o sort_n probable_o persuade_v by_o it_o that_o protestant_n be_v the_o true_a visible_a church_n more_o than_o a_o man_n in_o case_n of_o doubt_n can_v be_v by_o the_o like_a argument_n which_o a_o man_n may_v make_v to_o prove_v himself_o and_o his_o brethren_n to_o be_v as_o well_o speak_v of_o as_o any_o in_o all_o the_o parish_n thus_o those_o who_o be_v in_o heart_n true_a honest_a man_n be_v as_o well_o speak_v of_o as_o any_o in_o all_o the_o parish_n but_o i_o and_o my_o brethren_n be_v in_o heart_n true_a honest_a man_n ergo_fw-la as_o this_o proof_n be_v not_o able_a to_o make_v any_o man_n not_o partial_o affect_v to_o believe_v these_o man_n to_o be_v well_o speak_v of_o or_o to_o be_v honest_a man_n so_o neither_o can_n d._n featlyes_n proof_n make_v any_o wise_a man_n believe_v protestant_n to_o be_v the_o true_a visible_a church_n or_o to_o have_v the_o true_a faith_n second_o if_o the_o term_n that_o church_n be_v understand_v only_o of_o a_o particular_a church_n as_o for_o example_n the_o church_n of_o england_n it_o be_v so_o far_o from_o a_o logical_a demonstration_n as_o it_o have_v not_o in_o it_o any_o logical_a form_n according_a to_o any_o of_o the_o usual_a mood_n barbara_n caelarent_fw-la etc._n etc._n but_o if_o it_o be_v understand_v universal_o of_o every_o church_n that_o be_v or_o may_v be_v then_o both_o mayor_n and_o minor_n be_v false_a and_o so_o it_o can_v be_v a_o demonstration_n who_o property_n be_v to_o consist_v of_o most_o certain_o true_a proposition_n the_o mayor_n in_o this_o latter_a sense_n be_v false_a for_o that_o there_o may_v be_v a_o church_n or_o company_n who_o may_v have_v inward_a faith_n eternal_a and_o unchanged_a as_o for_o example_n a_o church_n of_o angel_n who_o for_o want_n of_o visible_a profession_n be_v not_o so_o visible_a as_o the_o catholic_a church_n ought_v to_o be_v the_o minor_a be_v false_a also_o for_o the_o protestant_a church_n have_v not_o the_o true_a primitive_a faith_n neither_o be_v that_o faith_n they_o have_v unchanged_a but_o so_o often_o change_v and_o so_o much_o subject_a to_o change_v as_o one_o may_v say_v as_o a_o great_a person_n in_o germany_n once_o say_v of_o some_o protestant_n what_o they_o hold_v this_o year_n i_o do_v in_o some_o sort_n know_v but_o what_o they_o will_v hold_v next_o year_n i_o do_v not_o know_v which_o be_v true_a in_o regard_n they_o have_v no_o certain_a and_o infallible_a rule_n sufficient_a to_o preserve_v they_o from_o change_n but_o if_o d._n feat_o shall_v say_v that_o he_o neither_o mean_v the_o term_n that_o church_n in_o either_o of_o the_o aforesaid_a sense_n but_o mean_v to_o signify_v by_o it_o that_o one_o holy_a catholic_a and_o apostolic_a church_n which_o the_o holy_a scripture_n do_v show_v both_o to_o have_v perpetual_a unchanged_a faith_n and_o also_o to_o be_v perpetual_o visible_a then_o indeed_o the_o mayor_n be_v true_a but_o the_o minor_n be_v most_o false_a and_o so_o the_o argument_n be_v far_o from_o be_v a_o demonstration_n especial_o when_o it_o endeavour_v to_o prove_v magis_fw-la no●um_fw-la per_fw-la ignotius_fw-la viz._n the_o visibilitie_n which_o be_v easy_o know_v by_o the_o truth_n of_o doctrine_n which_o be_v more_o hard_a to_o be_v know_v especial_o by_o only_a scripture_n of_o the_o sense_n whereof_o according_a to_o protestant_n who_o say_v the_o whole_a church_n may_v err_v no_o particulat_v man_n can_v be_v infallible_o sure_a for_o if_o the_o whole_a church_n or_o company_n to_o who_o christ_n promise_v the_o spirit_n of_o 〈…〉_z truth_n to_o teach_v they_o all_o truth_n may_v err_v then_o much_o more_o may_v every_o particular_a man_n err_v and_o consequent_o no_o particular_a man_n can_v be_v infallible_o sure_a of_o the_o sense_n of_o scripture_n three_o this_o argument_n beg_v or_o suppose_v that_o which_o be_v in_o question_n for_o in_o ask_v which_o be_v the_o true_a visible_a church_n or_o congregation_n of_o the_o true_a faithful_a we_o ask_v at_o least_o virtual_o which_o be_v the_o true_a faith_n in_o regard_n the_o true_a church_n can_v be_v without_o this_o true_a faith_n yea_o therefore_o do_v we_o ask_v which_o be_v the_o true_a church_n that_o of_o it_o be_v first_o know_v by_o other_o mark_v we_o may_v learn_v what_o be_v the_o true_a faith_n in_o all_o point_n in_o which_o we_o yet_o know_v not_o what_o be_v to_o be_v hold_v for_o true_a druine_n faith_n four_o although_o faith_n be_v prerequired_n to_o be_v in_o some_o or_o other_o member_n of_o the_o true_a church_n yet_o inward_a faith_n alone_o without_o some_o outward_a profession_n by_o which_o it_o be_v make_v visible_a or_o sensible_a do_v not_o sufficient_o make_v a_o man_n to_o be_v a_o member_n of_o the_o visible_a church_n let_v d._n feat_o therefore_o look_v back_o upon_o his_o argument_n and_o tell_v we_o what_o academical_a learning_n teach_v he_o to_o call_v it_o a_o demonstration_n a_o priori_fw-la but_o let_v we_o hear_v how_o m._n fisher_n do_v answer_v this_o

out_o of_o good_a author_n and_o therefore_o as_o he_o have_v hear_v the_o roman_a catholik_o make_v no_o difficulty_n to_o produce_v out_o of_o good_a author_n the_o name_n of_o their_o pastor_n &_o people_n in_o all_o age_n so_o he_o much_o desire_v to_o hear_v whether_o the_o name_n of_o protestant_a pastor_n and_o preacher_n in_o all_o age_n can_v not_o also_o be_v produce_v out_o of_o good_a author_n for_o if_o they_o can_v he_o mean_v to_o remain_v a_o protestant_n as_o he_o have_v be_v all_o his_o life_n time_n but_o if_o they_o can_v not_o he_o think_v it_o necessary_a to_o leave_v the_o protestant_n and_o to_o adhere_v to_o the_o roman_a church_n to_o learn_v of_o it_o faith_n necessary_a to_o salvation_n by_o this_o appear_v that_o the_o sense_n and_o meaning_n of_o the_o question_n can_v be_v no_o other_o than_o that_o which_o m_n fisher_n explicate_v in_o the_o conference_n viz._n whether_o the_o protestant_a church_n be_v in_o all_o age_n so_o visible_a especial_o in_o the_o age_n before_o luther_n as_o the_o name_n of_o protestant_a pastor_n and_o preacher_n in_o all_o age_n may_v be_v show_v out_o of_o good_a author_n and_o further_o that_o in_o case_n the_o protestant_a disputant_n shall_v undertake_v as_o he_o do_v tooto_fw-mi bold_o undertake_v the_o affirmative_a part_n say_v and_o offer_v to_o prove_v in_o general_a that_o the_o name_n of_o such_o pastor_n and_o preacher_n of_o protestant_a religion_n may_v be_v show_v in_o all_o age_n out_o of_o good_a author_n it_o shall_v further_o be_v require_v as_o m._n fisher_n require_v of_o he_o that_o he_o shall_v actual_o name_v in_o particular_a in_o every_o several_a age_n such_o pastor_n and_o preacher_n as_o he_o think_v he_o can_v prove_v and_o defend_v to_o be_v protestant_n for_o if_o the_o question_n have_v not_o be_v thus_o understand_v it_o shall_v not_o have_v be_v answerable_a to_o the_o occasion_n and_o end_v above_o say_v neither_o can_v the_o protestant_a disputant_n sufficient_o satisfy_v the_o doubt_n of_o the_o old_a gentleman_n be_v chief_o cause_v in_o that_o he_o have_v hear_v that_o no_o protestant_n can_v name_v pastor_n and_o preacher_n of_o his_o profession_n in_o all_o age_n out_o of_o good_a author_n so_o as_o to_o satisfy_v this_o doubt_n it_o be_v not_o sufficient_a only_o to_o say_v nor_o only_o in_o general_a to_o prove_v by_o such_o syllogism_n as_o d._n feat_o make_v which_o be_v such_o as_o the_o old_a gentleman_n i_o dare_v say_v do_v not_o understand_v that_o the_o name_n of_o protestant_n in_o all_o age_n may_v be_v show_v but_o as_o m._n fisher_n have_v show_v he_o a_o print_a book_n in_o which_o roman_a catholic_a pastor_n and_o people_n be_v in_o particular_a name_v in_o all_o age_n so_o he_o expect_v protestant_a pastor_n and_o people_n of_o all_o age_n to_o be_v name_v in_o particular_a and_o after_o prove_v and_o defend_v to_o be_v protestant_n as_o m._n fisher_n be_v ready_a to_o prove_v and_o defend_v who_o he_o will_v in_o particular_a name_n to_o be_v roman_a catholic_n furthermore_o although_o it_o may_v seem_v to_o some_o not_o much_o material_a whether_o the_o protestant_a disputant_n have_v begin_v to_o name_v first_o those_o of_o the_o first_o age_n &_o next_o of_o the_o second_o and_o so_o downward_o until_o luther_n or_o contrary_a wise_a to_o begin_v with_o luther_n and_o so_o upward_o till_o the_o apostle_n and_o christ_n yet_o both_o the_o word_n of_o the_o question_n &_o the_o doubt_n of_o the_o old_a gentleman_n have_v be_v far_o better_a satisfy_v and_o the_o tergiversation_n which_o d._n feat_o use_v in_o the_o first_o age_n avoid_v if_o m._n fisher_n have_v urge_v he_o as_o he_o may_v first_o to_o begin_v with_o the_o age_n immediate_o before_o luther_n a_o confess_a protestant_n and_o so_o go_v upward_o until_o christ_n the_o confess_a fountain_n of_o infallible_a perpetual_a unchanged_a truth_n for_o than_o it_o will_v have_v be_v clear_o see_v even_o by_o the_o confession_n of_o learned_a protestant_n particular_o luther_n himself_o and_o other_o that_o those_o who_o either_o be_v name_v or_o can_v yet_o be_v name_v by_o d._n feat_o after_o he_o have_v seek_v as_o i_o be_o tell_v he_o go_v to_o seek_v record_v in_o the_o great_a library_n in_o oxford_n be_v not_o visible_a protestant_n but_o of_o a_o different_a profession_n faith_n and_o religion_n and_o so_o different_a as_o that_o they_o can_v be_v just_o deem_v member_n of_o one_o and_o the_o same_o protestant_a church_n with_o luther_n after_o his_o apostasy_n from_o his_o religious_a order_n and_o revolt_v from_o the_o roman_a catholic_a faith_n for_o proof_n whereof_o i_o for_o brevitye_n sake_n do_v refer_v every_o one_o who_o desire_v full_a satisfaction_n in_o this_o point_n to_o what_o be_v large_o relate_v and_o prove_v in_o the_o protestant_n apology_n in_o diverse_a place_n but_o particular_o tract_n 2._o cap._n 2._o sect_n 11._o subdivision_n 3._o and_o will_v only_o content_v myself_o to_o cyte_v these_o few_o testimony_n for_o their_o sake_n who_o have_v not_o commodity_n to_o see_v that_o book_n first_o therefore_o 1525._o luther_n himself_o say_v we_o dare_v boast_v that_o christ_n be_v first_o publish_v by_o us._n wherefore_o the_o latheran_n finé_fw-fr conradus_n schushelburg_n say_v it_o be_v impudence_n to_o say_v that_o many_o learned_a man_n in_o germany_n and_o the_o like_a be_v of_o other_o country_n before_o luther_n do_v hold_v the_o doctrine_n of_o the_o lutheran_n gospel_n and_o another_o 137._o of_o they_o not_o only_o say_v in_o effect_n thus_o much_o but_o prove_v it_o by_o this_o argument_n if_o there_o have_v be_v right_a believer_n that_o go_v before_o luther_n in_o his_o office_n there_o have_v be_v no_o need_n of_o a_o lutheran_n reformation_n another_o say_v it_o 145._o be_v ridiculous_a to_o think_v that_o in_o the_o time_n before_o luther_n any_o have_v the_o purity_n of_o doctrine_n and_o that_o luther_n shall_v receive_v it_o from_o they_o &_o not_o they_o from_o luther_n consider_v say_v he_o it_o be_v manifest_a to_o the_o whole_a world_n that_o before_o luther_n time_n all_o church_n be_v overwhelm_v with_o more_o than_o cimmerian_a darkness_n and_o that_o luther_n be_v divine_o raise_v up_o to_o discover_v the_o same_o &_o to_o restore_v the_o light_n of_o true_a doctrine_n and_o lest_o this_o may_v be_v think_v to_o have_v be_v only_o the_o conceit_n of_o luther_n and_o lutheran_n who_o yet_o can_v better_a tell_v then_o d._n feat_o d._n white_a and_o such_o other_o new_a master_n i_o will_v add_v hereunto_o what_o be_v say_v first_o by_o 141._o calvin_n who_o do_v acknowledge_v that_o in_o this_o lutheran_n reformation_n there_o be_v make_v a_o discession_n or_o departure_n from_o all_o the_o world_n second_o by_o hereford_n bucer_n who_o call_v luther_n the_o first_o apostle_n of_o the_o reform_a doctrine_n three_o by_o beza_n 5._o a_o principal_a caluinist_n who_o teach_v that_o at_o this_o time_n ordinary_a vocation_n of_o the_o churchman_n be_v no_o where_o extant_a and_o consequent_o teach_v that_o there_o be_v at_o that_o time_n no_o visible_a church_n and_o so_o if_o any_o church_n at_o all_o it_o be_v only_o invisible_a as_o be_v affirm_v even_o by_o our_o own_o english_a protestant_n divine_v namely_o m._n 42._o jewel_n who_o say_v the_o truth_n be_v unknown_a and_o unheard_a of_o when_o martin_n luther_n and_o vldericke_n zuinglius_fw-la first_fw-mi come_v to_o the_o knowledge_n and_o preach_v of_o the_o gospel_n and_o m._n perkins_n creed_n who_o say_v we_o say_v that_o before_o the_o day_n of_o luther_n for_o the_o space_n of_o many_o hundred_o year_n a_o universal_a apostasy_n overspread_v the_o whole_a face_n of_o the_o earth_n and_o that_o our_o protestant_n church_n be_v not_o visible_a to_o the_o world_n i_o may_v add_v many_o more_o religion_n testimony_n of_o other_o who_o either_o in_o express_a term_n or_o in_o effect_n affirm_v the_o protestant_a church_n to_o have_v be_v in_o many_o age_n before_o luther_n latent_fw-la and_o altogether_o invisible_a which_o indeed_o be_v the_o common_a opinion_n of_o protestant_n at_o their_o first_o upryse_v who_o on_o the_o one_o side_n think_v they_o can_v with_o shift_n good_o answer_v place_n of_o scripture_n which_o make_v often_o and_o honourable_a mention_n of_o the_o church_n than_o they_o can_v answer_v the_o evidence_n of_o history_n and_o of_o their_o own_o experience_n show_v that_o no_o visible_a protestant_n be_v extant_a before_o themselves_o but_o now_o of_o late_a diverse_a plain_a place_n of_o scripture_n and_o father_n have_v be_v produce_v and_o such_o evident_a reason_n deduce_v out_o of_o they_o prove_v inevitable_o that_o the_o true_a church_n of_o christ_n of_o which_o all_o sort_n must_v learn_v infallible_a say_v necessary_a to_o salvation_n must_v needs_o be_v visible_a in_o all_o age_n as_o to_o omit_v other_o

give_v special_a commendation_n of_o they_o &_o far_o prefer_v they_o before_o his_o own_o churchman_n and_o as_o the_o method_n which_o m._n fisher_n prescribe_v before_o the_o meeting_n be_v already_o show_v to_o be_v the_o fit_a that_o can_v be_v for_o give_v good_a satisfaction_n to_o the_o old_a gentleman_n and_o all_o other_o so_o in_o my_o opinion_n both_o he_o and_o m._n sweet_a do_v very_o well_o to_o stand_v as_o they_o do_v constant_o to_o it_o prudent_o forseeing_a when_o the_o adversary_n will_v have_v divert_v they_o from_o it_o and_o wary_o so_o answer_v his_o his_o argument_n as_o that_o for_o all_o he_o can_v say_v they_o will_v not_o suffer_v themselves_o to_o be_v transport_v from_o the_o propose_a question_n and_o the_o prescribe_a method_n but_o still_o keep_v the_o adversary_n to_o the_o point_n &_o will_v not_o permit_v he_o to_o divert_v either_o to_o dispute_v about_o christ_n or_o his_o apostle_n or_o any_o other_o point_n until_o name_n be_v give_v in_o all_o age_n which_o be_v the_o point_n demand_v and_o undertake_v the_o which_o course_n they_o take_v upon_o just_a and_o good_a reason_n and_o not_o for_o any_o distrust_n or_o diffidence_n as_o some_o protestant_n do_v inconsiderat_o imagine_v that_o they_o can_v not_o defend_v christ_n and_o his_o apostle_n not_o to_o have_v be_v protestant_n or_o any_o particular_a point_n of_o those_o which_o d._n feat_o or_o d._n white_a unreasonable_o propose_v or_o any_o other_o hold_v in_o such_o sense_n as_o it_o be_v hold_v as_o a_o point_n of_o faith_n by_o the_o catholic_a roman_a church_n which_o they_o can_v and_o will_v have_v defend_v &_o prove_v if_o need_n have_v be_v or_o if_o the_o meeting_n have_v be_v intend_v and_o appoint_v for_o that_o purpose_n the_o reason_n therefore_o why_o m._n fisher_n may_v well_o refuse_v to_o enter_v into_o such_o particular_a dispute_n before_o full_a induction_n of_o name_n be_v end_v be_v for_o that_o this_o have_v be_v to_o follow_v two_o hare_n at_o 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some_o such_o evident_a mark_n find_v out_o and_o acknowledge_v as_o a_o sufficient_a mean_n appoint_v by_o god_n to_o instruct_v all_o sort_n in_o matter_n of_o faith_n and_o to_o preserve_v unity_n and_o determine_v controversye_n of_o faith_n will_v have_v be_v fruitless_a &_o endless_a which_o be_v the_o reason_n why_o m._n fisher_n in_o another_o former_a conference_n have_v with_o a_o certain_a minister_n will_v not_o enter_v into_o any_o particular_n until_o he_o have_v ask_v these_o general_a question_n 1._o what_o ground_n the_o minister_n will_v stand_v upon_o the_o minister_n answer_v scripture_n which_o m._n fisher_n accept_v write_v down_o and_o then_o ask_v 2._o whether_o he_o will_v believe_v nothing_o but_o express_v word_n of_o scripture_n the_o minister_n answer_v yes_o he_o will_v also_o believe_v a_o good_a consequence_n out_o of_o scripture_n this_o also_o m._n fisher_n accept_v and_o write_v down_o and_o further_o ask_v 3._o if_o it_o shall_v happen_v that_o the_o consequence_n which_o the_o minister_n shall_v bring_v shall_v not_o be_v think_v good_a by_o he_o and_o è_fw-la contra_fw-la the_o consequence_n bring_v by_o he_o shall_v not_o be_v think_v good_a by_o the_o minister_n who_o shall_v judge_v and_o end_v that_o fruitless_a and_o otherwise_o endless_a contention_n and_o controversy_n the_o minister_n say_v the_o church_n m._n fisher_n very_o willing_o accept_v and_o write_v it_o down_o &_o 4._o ask_v whether_o after_o the_o church_n shall_v have_v judge_v and_o decide_v such_o a_o controversy_n it_o shall_v be_v lawful_a for_o any_o private_a man_n to_o oppose_v his_o judgement_n against_o that_o which_o the_o church_n have_v so_o determine_v as_o for_o example_n when_o cutholike_n and_o arrian_n have_v allege_v scripture_n and_o pro_fw-la and_o contra_fw-la bring_v consequence_n out_o of_o they_o about_o the_o divinity_n of_o christ_n our_o lord_n the_o church_n in_o a_o general_a council_n judge_v the_o consequence_n of_o arrian_n to_o be_v naught_o and_o those_o of_o the_o catholic_n good_a the_o minister_n say_v no_o it_o be_v not_o lawful_a for_o any_o private_a man_n to_o oppose_v his_o judgement_n against_o such_o a_o judgement_n of_o the_o church_n these_o question_n be_v ask_v m._n fisher_n join_v issue_n upon_o a_o question_n bid_v the_o minister_n choose_v what_o he_o think_v most_o material_a against_o roman_n catholic_n and_o let_v it_o be_v try_v whether_o the_o church_n do_v judge_v for_o catholic_n or_o protestant_n the_o minister_n do_v choose_v the_o question_n about_o merit_n and_o take_v for_o his_o tenet_n that_o there_o be_v not_o any_o merit_n of_o man_n before_o god_n and_o when_o the_o day_n of_o trial_n come_v the_o case_n be_v so_o clear_a against_o the_o minister_n in_o the_o ancient_a father_n who_o the_o minister_n grant_v to_o be_v the_o church_n even_o by_o confession_n of_o the_o magdeburgian_o that_o the_o minister_n have_v no_o shift_n but_o to_o divert_v the_o disputation_n from_o the_o substance_n of_o the_o propose_a question_n to_o a_o circumstance_n of_o commutative_a justice_n and_o that_o equality_n betwixt_o the_o work_n and_o the_o reward_n which_o be_v write_v of_o by_o bellarmine_n about_o which_o circumstance_n m._n fisher_n be_v content_a to_o dispute_v after_o he_o have_v plain_o show_v the_o substance_n of_o merit_n out_o of_o the_o ancient_a father_n come_v therefore_o to_o dispute_v about_o the_o aforesaid_a circumstance_n of_o merit_n m._n fisher_n find_v that_o there_o will_v be_v no_o end_n nor_o fruit_n of_o the_o argument_n in_o regard_n the_o ancient_a father_n have_v not_o speak_v of_o it_o in_o express_a term_n as_o they_o have_v do_v of_o the_o substance_n of_o merit_n &_o no_o other_o visible_a church_n of_o this_o present_a age_n be_v agree_v on_o to_o who_o judgement_n this_o matter_n shall_v be_v final_o refer_v by_o which_o experience_n m._n fisher_n have_v learned_a how_o endless_a and_o fruitless_a it_o be_v to_o waste_v word_n about_o particular_n until_o both_o party_n be_v agree_v which_o be_v the_o true_a church_n not_o only_o in_o ancient_a time_n but_o also_o of_o this_o age_n so_o as_o after_o each_o party_n have_v say_v what_o he_o can_v the_o final_a resolution_n of_o the_o question_n may_v be_v refer_v to_o that_o present_a church_n which_o have_v without_o interruption_n of_o pastor_n and_o doctor_n and_o without_o change_n of_o doctrine_n successive_o descend_v from_o the_o true_a visible_a church_n of_o ancient_a time_n be_v by_o this_o and_o other_o mark_v prove_v to_o be_v the_o pre-present_a true_a church_n who_o judgement_n no_o private_a man_n must_v oppose_v this_o question_n therefore_o of_o the_o continual_a successive_a visible_a church_n be_v so_o necessary_a to_o end_v all_o controversy_n and_o be_v now_o propose_v to_o be_v treat_v of_o betwixt_o m._n fisher_n and_o d._n feat_o m._n fisher_n have_v great_a reason_n not_o to_o permit_v speech_n of_o any_o other_o particular_a question_n until_o by_o his_o prescribe_a method_n he_o have_v get_v it_o clear_o see_v that_o the_o protestant_a church_n be_v not_o and_o the_o catholic_a roman_a church_n be_v the_o only_a true_a church_n to_o who_o it_o pertain_v to_o give_v judgement_n of_o and_o determine_v controversy_n and_o to_o instruct_v all_o sort_n of_o man_n in_o the_o true_a faith_n and_o not_o to_o permit_v man_n by_o their_o private_a interpretation_n of_o scripture_n to_o wander_v in_o error_n or_o waver_v in_o in_o certain_a tie_n or_o spend_v their_o time_n in_o fruitless_a and_o endless_a disputation_n about_o controverfy_v of_o faith_n it_o be_v most_o certain_a that_o these_o can_v never_o be_v with_o fruit_n and_o full_o end_v but_o by_o the_o censure_n of_o the_o true_a visible_a not_o only_o ancient_a but_o also_o present_a church_n which_o must_v when_o doubt_n be_v as_o most_o often_o be_v make_v tell_v we_o what_o particular_a book_n be_v

be_v these_o my_o spirit_n which_o be_v in_o thou_o and_o my_o word_n which_o i_o have_v put_v in_o thy_o mouth_n shall_v not_o depart_v out_o of_o thy_o mouth_n nor_o out_o of_o the_o mouth_n of_o 21._o thy_o seed_n nor_o out_o of_o the_o mouth_n of_o thy_o seed_n seed_n from_o henceforth_o for_o ever_o again_o their_o seed_n shall_v be_v know_v in_o nation_n 9_o and_o their_o branch_n among_o people_n all_o that_o see_v they_o shall_v know_v they_o that_o these_o be_v the_o seed_n which_o our_o lord_n have_v bless_v again_o thy_o gate_n shall_v be_v open_v continual_o day_n and_o night_n 11_o they_o shall_v not_o be_v shut_v that_o the_o strength_n of_o the_o nation_n and_o their_o king_n may_v enter_v into_o thou_o for_o the_o nation_n and_o kingdom_n which_o 14_o shall_v not_o serve_v thou_o shall_v perish_v you_o be_v the_o light_n of_o the_o world_n a_o city_n build_v upon_o a_o hill_n can_v be_v hide_v tell_v the_o church_n etc._n etc._n he_o that_o will_v not_o hear_v the_o church_n let_v he_o be_v unto_o thou_o as_o a_o 20_o heathen_a and_o publican_n go_v teach_v all_o nation_n baptise_v they_o &c._n &c._n behold_v i_o be_o with_o you_o to_o wit_n yourselves_o and_o successor_n teach_v and_o baptise_v all_o day_n until_o the_o end_n of_o the_o world_n conformable_a to_o which_o scripture_n be_v also_o innumerable_a plain_a place_n of_o ancient_a father_n which_o may_v be_v see_v in_o coccius_n and_o among_o other_o s._n augustine_n 1._o who_o say_v that_o the_o church_n be_v build_v upon_o a_o mountain_n can_v be_v hide_v out_o of_o these_o and_o other_o plain_a place_n of_o of_o scripture_n &_o father_n evident_a reason_n also_o may_v be_v 25._o deduce_v show_v that_o the_o church_n must_v needs_o be_v visible_a in_o all_o age_n as_o for_o example_n that_o otherwise_o it_o can_v be_v such_o a_o church_n as_o christ_n do_v institute_v nor_o can_v it_o perform_v those_o office_n which_o christ_n appoint_v it_o to_o perform_v nor_o can_v those_o which_o be_v in_o it_o be_v instruct_v by_o it_o nor_o those_o which_o be_v out_o of_o it_o be_v convert_v to_o it_o nor_o heretic_n pretend_v to_o be_v the_o church_n convince_v not_o to_o be_v it_o wherefore_o out_o late_a pro_fw-la testant_n being_n not_o able_a to_o sail_v any_o long_o against_o this_o inevitable_a scylla_n without_o apparent_a danger_n to_o split_v their_o boat_n will_v needs_o rather_o than_o turn_v back_o to_o the_o safe_a haven_n of_o the_o visible_a catholic_a roman_n church_n adventure_n upon_o the_o charybdis_n of_o contemn_v all_o monument_n of_o ancient_a history_n and_o the_o plain_a experience_n of_o their_o primitive_a protestant_a patriarch_n hope_v to_o escape_v by_o land_v upon_o the_o imaginary_a island_n of_o invisible_a record_n suppose_v to_o have_v be_v write_v and_o after_o suppress_v in_o the_o pretend_a pope_n persecution_n of_o the_o visible_a member_n of_o their_o invisible_a church_n in_o the_o age_n before_o luther_n a_o shift_n very_o unsafe_a and_o such_o as_o if_o it_o be_v good_a may_v serve_v any_o other_o sect_n of_o ancient_a or_o present_a heretic_n as_o well_o as_o our_o modern_a protestant_n if_o they_o will_v pretend_v to_o have_v have_v a_o continual_a visible_a church_n of_o their_o profession_n but_o alas_o who_o see_v not_o that_o these_o be_v mere_a imaginary_a chimera_n or_o dream_n for_o if_o any_o such_o people_n have_v be_v practise_v especial_o rite_n of_o their_o religion_n though_o never_o so_o secret_o they_o can_v not_o even_o with_o a_o gyges_n ring_n have_v pass_v unseen_a but_o either_o with_o their_o positive_a profession_n of_o their_o own_o doctrine_n which_o in_o some_o case_n oblige_v all_o true_a believer_n or_o at_o least_o with_o negative_a profession_n of_o faith_n by_o which_o all_o faithful_a man_n and_o at_o all_o time_n be_v oblige_v never_o to_o make_v show_n and_o profession_n of_o a_o contrary_a religion_n they_o or_o some_o of_o they_o can_v not_o choose_v but_o to_o have_v be_v note_v and_o if_o for_o that_o cause_n any_o persecution_n be_v in_o that_o age_n as_o be_v suppose_v infallible_o they_o will_v have_v be_v take_v as_o other_o of_o other_o religion_n in_o like_a case_n ordinary_o be_v take_v and_o imprison_v or_o otherwise_o so_o punish_v as_o the_o world_n can_v not_o have_v be_v ignorant_a of_o their_o person_n nor_o history_n set_v out_o by_o friend_n or_o enemy_n silent_a in_o set_v down_o as_o usual_o be_v do_v their_o name_n condition_n opinion_n punishment_n and_o persecution_n in_o such_o time_n such_o place_n etc._n etc._n and_o if_o such_o record_n of_o such_o conspicuous_a thing_n have_v be_v set_v down_o in_o history_n it_o be_v not_o possible_a that_o the_o memory_n of_o such_o notorious_a matter_n can_v be_v raze_v both_o out_o of_o book_n and_o out_o of_o the_o mind_n of_o man_n who_o without_o book_n do_v continual_o deliver_v in_o word_n to_o their_o successor_n what_o they_o see_v with_o their_o eye_n or_o hear_v with_o their_o ear_n of_o their_o predecessor_n or_o read_v in_o book_n to_o have_v be_v do_v to_o such_o person_n as_o profess_v such_o a_o religion_n or_o to_o have_v be_v do_v to_o such_o book_n in_o which_o mention_n be_v make_v of_o such_o persecution_n make_v against_o professor_n of_o that_o religion_n to_o say_v therefore_o that_o such_o person_n be_v and_o yet_o no_o record_n in_o any_o book_n or_o other_o memory_n of_o they_o or_o that_o once_o such_o record_n be_v but_o after_o be_v by_o the_o pope_n raze_v or_o burn_v and_o yet_o no_o mention_n make_v in_o any_o book_n or_o other_o monument_n that_o such_o raze_n or_o burn_v of_o book_n be_v by_o such_o a_o pope_n at_o such_o a_o time_n &c._n &c._n as_o we_o can_v yet_o out_o of_o good_a record_n tell_v the_o book_n burn_v by_o dioclesian_n the_o grandee_n persecutor_n of_o christian_n to_o say_v i_o say_v this_o be_v senseless_a and_o plain_o show_v that_o these_o man_n who_o seek_v to_o avoid_v the_o scylla_n of_o a_o invisible_a church_n by_o this_o shift_n fall_v into_o the_o charybdis_n of_o speak_v against_o sense_n and_o experience_n and_o indeed_o run_v back_o upon_o the_o scylla_n of_o the_o same_o invisible_a church_n for_o avoid_v whereof_o they_o devise_v this_o sandy_a shift_n of_o invisible_a persecutor_n invisible_a persecution_n invisible_a record_n of_o nameles_a suppose_v to_o be_v visible_o persecute_v member_n of_o the_o protestant_a church_n in_o all_o age_n before_o luther_n o_o misery_n o_o madness_n of_o our_o poor_a deceive_v protestant_n what_o be_v it_o possible_a that_o luther_n and_o lutheran_n calvin_n and_o caluinist_n yea_o our_o own_o countryman_n prime_n protestant_n convince_v with_o the_o clear_a evidency_n of_o thing_n in_o their_o own_o day_n and_o with_o plain_a record_n of_o all_o ancient_a monument_n for_o former_a age_n do_v confess_v as_o you_o hear_v even_o now_o that_o luther_n be_v the_o first_o that_o announce_v or_o publish_v christ_n that_o he_o be_v the_o first_o apostle_n of_o the_o reform_a doctrine_n and_o this_o so_o certain_o that_o they_o do_v account_v it_o impudence_n and_o ridiculous_a to_o say_v that_o there_o be_v other_o visible_a protestant_n in_o germany_n before_o luther_n that_o they_o prove_v by_o argument_n this_o to_o be_v impossible_a that_o they_o acknowledge_v themselves_o in_o this_o lutheran_n reformation_n to_o have_v depart_v from_o all_o the_o world_n that_o at_o luther_n and_o caluin_n come_v no_o ordinary_a vocation_n of_o churchman_n without_o which_o the_o visible_a church_n can_v be_v be_v extant_a in_o any_o place_n that_o the_o church_n both_o then_o and_o for_o many_o hundred_o year_n before_o be_v whole_o latent_fw-la and_o invisible_a be_v it_o possible_a i_o say_v that_o all_o this_o shall_v be_v confess_v by_o the_o primitive_a parent_n and_o prime_a doctor_n of_o protestancy_n and_o that_o now_o their_o profess_a child_n &_o scholar_n and_o in_o respect_n of_o they_o puny_n in_o protestant_a divinity_n dare_v be_v so_o bold_a as_o d._n feat_o be_v in_o the_o late_a conference_n to_o control_v and_o contradict_v those_o his_o grand_a master_n in_o not_o only_o affirm_v but_o offer_v to_o prove_v by_o a_o syllogism_n and_o by_o a_o demonstration_n à_fw-la priori_fw-la that_o the_o protestant_a church_n have_v be_v in_o all_o age_n visible_a and_o o_o wonder_n so_o visible_a as_o the_o name_n of_o the_o particular_a man_n may_v be_v show_v in_o all_o age_n out_o of_o good_a author_n and_o further_o offer_v to_o second_v this_o syllogism_n by_o a_o full_a induction_n in_o which_o he_o undertake_v actual_o to_o set_v down_o their_o particular_a name_n in_o every_o several_a age_n sure_o the_o aforesaid_a protestant_n if_o they_o have_v be_v present_a will_v have_v wonder_v to_o see_v such_o boldness_n and_o will_v have_v censure_v this_o attempt_n to_o