others Invisibly profess'd others travel a great way to find it and return back with a May be and it may be 't was under the Rubbish And what if one should here enforce the Argument in The Plain Mans Reply He 's upon Enquiry Who is the Infallible Judge asserted by Catholics and because he don't find Authors agree upon the Point Where he shall find him p. 18. 25. he there concludes them all to be but Triflers and that there 's no such Judge in the World. Would not this conclude as forcibly that there was no Protestant Church in the World before Luther Since being now upon the Search to what Church or Communion one was to have applyed himself in K. Henry the Seventh's time to have been instructed in the True Faith and Doctrine of Christ they generally agree there was such a Church in the World but some send us to Armenia for it some to Greece some to the Hussites some to an Invisible Corner some to a Cloud some to look under the Rubbish What can a Man call this but in the Plain Man's phrase Trifling And yet Plain as he is he stands fair for this same Title of Honour he has so bountifully bestow'd upon others For as others so He tells us p. 10. that True Religion shall never be so far driven out of the World but that it shall always have somewhere or other some that believe and profess it in all things necessary to Salvation I enquire Where these were twenty years before the Pretended Reformation He assures me They were certainly in the World some where or other Great satisfaction to an Enquirer Is not this just as if I were travelling to a certain Town as as 't is in the Plain Mans Reply p. 19. and do ask the next Man I meet which is the right way He tells me 't is a very Cross-Road to find and I may easily miss it But saith he tho' I cannot direct you my self yet there is a Man lives in that Village who knows every step so exactly that if you take him for your Guide you cannot possibly be mistaken Pray say I at what House do's this Honest Man live How may I come to the speech of him Nay saith he I know nothing of all that but you must find him as you can Now suppose every Man in the Village gives me the same wise Answer What an admirable Direction would this prove Is this any thing but Trifling This is just our Case I am enquiring to find out the True Protestant Church before Luther All assure me 't was certainly in the World but when I come to ask Where the Plain Man's Reply is Some where or other Misrepr Tho' they don't agree where 't was just before Luther Yet all agree 't was generally profess'd by the Primitive Christians Represent Then I see we must despair of finding it the thousand Years before Luther And what was the Primitive Church we 'l enquire in our next Publish'd with Allowance LONDON Printed by Henry Hills Printer to the King 's Most Excellent Majesty for his Houshold and Chappel M DC LXXX VI. THE CATHOLIC REPRESENTER CHAP. XI An Enquiry into the Religion of the Primitive Times and particularly That of Constantine the First Christian Emperor For the satisfaction of those who desire to know whether the Protestant Religion was generally Professed amongst the Christians of those Purer times Represent WE are now to enquire into the Belief and Practice of the Primitive Church and see whether that was Protestant or Catholic But we must first know how many Years or Ages you 'l allow us to look into that is how long you say the True Pretestant Religion as now establish'd was profess'd and practis'd Anciently and Generally among Christians after the Apostles days before corruption crept in upon it Setle this Point and then we 'll proceed Misrepresent If you are in good earnest He give you some account of this The Author of the Discourse Concerning a Judge of Controversie lately publish'd says p. 15. For Authority We appeal to the best Authority of the Christian Church the Three First Ages after the Apostles So that I presume by him the Protestant Religion was Anciently and Generally profess'd and practis'd to the year of Christ 400. Calvin Reynolds and Fulk own the Church of Rome to have continu'd in the Doctrine of the Apostles that is Protestant in the time of Cyprian Jerom Austin the last of whom liv'd till the year 430. Agen in the Discourse entitled Papists not Mis-represented by Protestants 'tis said p. 56. The Tradition of the Church remain'd Clear and Strong till after the First Four General Councils the last of which being that of Chalcedon establish'd in England by Act of Parliament An. 1 Eliz. was held in the Year 450. So that I may allow you to search into the Primitive Church for the first four hundred and fifty years for so long I question not the Protestant Religion was Generally profess'd and practis'd and that Religion as then practis'd is the same as now establish'd by Law here in England and 't is a shame You and Yours shou'd so declaim against it Represent Pardon me here for I profess my self to have so great a veneration for the Primitive Church that I resolve to believe as that believ'd and if it appears that That Church was the Protestant Church I le e'en be Protestant to morrow But let us go on upon our Enquiry You say you have reason to believe the Protestant Religion was Generally profess'd in the Primitive Times for the First Four hundred and fifty years For your satisfaction and mine we 'll take a view of the Christian Religion as then profess'd And that we may proceed with more security and certainty we 'll not descend at present so low as you allow but look at it as 't was practis'd in the time of Constantine the Great who died about the year 337. I make choice of this time because This was the First 〈◊〉 that gave liberty for the Publick Profession of Christianity and establish'd it by Law. 'T was under him all those Pious Learned and Holy Men first appear'd wâ—o till then had been confin'd by cruel Persâ—câ—â—ors to Caves Rocks and Wildernesses 'T was under him the First General Council of Niâ—e was held which we all venerate and whose Creed we all recite and assent to as Apostolical Misrepresent I approve the circumstances For if ever Christianity was Pure and Vncorrupt it must certainly be then when it first shew'd it self to the world and rais'd up its Head from under Perfecution And now you put me in mind of it Dr. Swadlin in his Answer to the 36 Questions reckons This Emperor Constantine the Great for one of the Fathers or Professors of the Proteâ—tant Relition in old times Answ 11. So that I have no exceptions against Him. But who shall give us the account of the Religion then Profess'd Represent Ee'n the Fathers or Professors that then liv'd
THE Catholic Representer OR THE PAPIST Misrepresented AND REPRESENTED Second Part. Publish'd with Allowance LONDON Printed by Henry Hills Printer to the King 's Most Excellent Majesty For his Houshold and Chappel 1687. THE CONTENTS CHAP. I. OF the Veneration shewn to Images of Christ the Virgin Mary c. Whether the Papists Pray to Images in Relation to a Passage of a Book Entituled A Catechism truly Representing the Doctrines and Practices of the Church of Rome and its Vindication CHAP. II. Whether Papists Pray directly to the Cross as is positively Asserted by a Protestant with an Essay of a Heathen-Catechism after the Copy of the Truly-representing Protestant-Catechism in which this Calumny is publish'd CHAP. III. Whether the Doctrine of Transubstantiation be contrary to the Writings of the Primitive Fathers or agreeable to them The Papist believes his Senses in this Mystery as much as the Protetant being Notes upon a late Pamphlet Entituled The Papists Doctrine of Transubstantiation not agreeable to the Primitive Fathers CHAP. IV. The Form of the Catholic Church Establish'd by Christ No hopes of Salvation out of it The Practice of the Apostles and Primitive Church in this Point Good at this day The Protestants as uncharitably Damn the Papists as These are said to do the Protestants In reference to the Preface of Wholsom Advices from the B. V. c. CHAP. V. The Papist as to the Articles of his Belief follows the Method prescrib'd by Christ practis'd by the Apostles and the Primimitive Church The Method is of Divine Institution and more according to Reason than what Others follow The Word Worship is Equivocal and acknowledg'd so by St. Austin CHAP. VI. The Papist do's not Believe but upon most Convincing Reasons Mysteries of Faith above Reason not contrary to it The Papist is not depriv'd of the Word of God nor kept from the Knowledge of the Gospel He do's not Pray to the Cross more than Protetestants Pray to their Bibles or the Sacrament Three Protestant Queries Answer'd CHAP. VII The Vulgar among the Papists not depriv'd of the Word of God. They are better Instructed in the true Sense of it than those of other Perswasions who Teach themselves The Vnlearned and Vnstable wrest it to their own Destruction CHAP. VIII The Vulgar not permitted to read the Bible among the Papists for fear they should discover the Errors of their Religion an Absurd Calumny The Restraint is That there may not be as many different Words of God as there are Heads amongst them and may have something better Ground than their own Imagination to direct their Faith. A Word to a Lay-Friend CHAP. IX The Scriptures not always the Same to the same Person No Possibility of meeting in One Faith whilst Private Reason sets up for Interpreter of the Word of God. The Sham-Story of the Frogs and Crabs The Truth of the Anniversary Solemnity CHAP. X. Private Interpretation of Scriptures the Occasion of Divisions Some Protestant Divines call in the Assistance of Authority and Guides but all ends in the Private Spirit The Question started Where was the Protestant Religion as it is now Reform'd before Luther The Answers of some Protestant Divines CHAP. XI An Enquiry into the Religion of the Primitive Times and particularly That of Constantine the First Christian Emperor For the Satisfaction of those who desire to know whether the Protestant Religion was generally Profess'd amongst the Christians of those Purer Times CHAP. XII Protestant Historians shew us Popery in the Primitive Church under Constantine but no Protestancy The Christians of that Age never Protested against the Popish Doctrines professedly Taught and Practis'd in those Times Therefore they were no Protestants An Enquiry into the Religion of the Ages succeeding Constantine CHAP. XIII The Professors of Popish Doctrines in the Primitive Times no Protestants but Papists Popish Tenets not only the Opinions of Private Doctors but the Doctrine of the Primitive Church The Four First General Councils no Protestants CHAP. XIV No Protestant Harangue in the First Four General Councils to fill the Fathers Heads with Fears and Jealousies No Canons made by the said Fathers to prevent the Growth of Popery at that Time professedly Taught and Practis'd is an Argument that the Fathers of those Councils were no Protestants CHAP. XV. The Appeal of Protestants to the Primitive Fathers shewn Injurious to Protestancy from the Concessâ—ons of Protestant Writers Luther the Apostle of the Reformatiâ—â— disclaims the Doctrine of the Fathers as not being for his purpose of Reforming CHAP. XVI A New Way of making all the Popish Sayings of the Primitive Fathers to be Good Protestancy The Art of Interpreting do's Feats it makes way for Atheism and Infidelity THE PAPIST Misrepresented AND Represented SECOND PART CHAP. I. Of the Veneration shewn to Images of Christ the Virgin Mary c. Whether the Papists pray to Images in Relation to a Passage of a Book Entituled A Catechism truly Representing the Doctrines and Practices of the Church of Rome and its Vindication THe Papist Misrepresented worships the Images of Christ and his Saints he kisses them uncovers his Head falls down before them offers Incense and Prays to them and uses all such Postures of Worship as he would do to the Person or Persons thereby represented if they were present And whosoever thinks otherwise amongst them is accursed Catech. truly repres the Doctr. of the Ch. of Rome p. 42. THe Papist Represented is taught That the Images of Christ of the Virgin Mary and other Saints ought to be kept and especially in Churches and due Honour and Veneration given them not for that any Divinity or Vertue is believed to be in them or that any thing is to be asked of them or any confidence to be placed in them as was anciently done by the Heathens who put their trust in Idols but because the Honour which is exhibited to the Images is referr'd to the Prototype or Thing represented by them So that by the Images which he kisses and before which he kneels or puts off his hat he adores Christ and reverences his Saints whom the said Images represent This is what He is taught and are the Words of the Council of Trent Sess 25. And tho some endeavour to cast an Infamy upon this Doctrine and Practice by letting loose the School-debates amongst the multitude and raising Mists and Confusion from the disagreeâ—ng Opinions of Divines Yet in honest Practice he 's conscious to himself of doing no more than what he sees done every Day by such who commendably follow the regular Motions of Humane Nature the Dictates of unbiass'd Reason First therefore as Men judge it nothing but Decent and Reasonable to set forth and adorn their Houses with the Pictures of such Persons as belong to their Family of their old Friends Benefactors Governours such as they esteem and whose Memory they desire to preserve and honour So he cannot but think it as agreeable to Reason that the House of God be
were put over them for their rule and direction they might be perfectly join'd together in the same mind and same judgment 1 Cor. 1. 10. That they might be preserv'd in the Unity of Peace and be no more Children rossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of Doctrine Ephes 4. 14. And that the People or Flock might have no scruple or solicitude upon them for fear of being led into Error by these Apostles and Pastors but might securely and without anxiety of Spirit rest under their Guidance and Direction Christ did most solemnly promise the said Overseers the Apostles and Pastors the assistance of his Holy Spirit I am with you always even unto the end of the world Mat. 28. 2c The Comforter the Holy Ghost shall teach you all things Jo. 14. 26. By which effectual Promise they were constituted Guides were taught all Truth and all those secur'd from Error who committed themselves to their Instruction The Catholic Church being thus constituted and ordian'd by Christ himself and provided with Apostles and Pastors divinely assisted for the instructing the Flock in the Mysteries of the Christian Faith with an obligation on all that heard them to believe upon pain of damnation He that believeth not shall be damn'd Mat. 16. 16. it is certain that all such as did separate themselves from the Communion of the Apostles either by contradicting or disbelieving their Doctrine or being refractory to their Government did in this most heinously offend the Divine Majesty and exclude themselves from the hopes of Salvation the former by rejecting the true Faith without which 't is impossible to please Him Heb. 11. 6. the latter by disobedience resisting the Ordinance of God They that resist shall receive to themselves damnation Rom. 13. 1. 2. This was the Face and Constitution of the Church of Christ in the time of the Apostles Salvation being promis'd to those that believ'd He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved and Damnation threatned to disbelievers He that believeth not shall be damned Mar. 16. 16. So that 't was no Uncharitable but a most Evangelical Assertion in the Evangelist to say The Lord added to the Church daily such as should be saved Act. 2. 47. And the declaring that there was no Salvation out of their Church was nothing but a necessary Doctrine The Church being thus by Christ himself founded the Pillar and Ground of Truth 2 Tim. 3. 15. consisting of Pastors and Teachers to instruct and of the Flock under an indispensable obligation of receiving and Submitting to their Instruction it was so to continue to the end of the World Christ's Spirit being to abide with her for ever Jo. 14. 16. The Promise of his assistance being not limited to the Persons of the Apostles but annex'd to their Function As therefore St. Paul when he left Ephesus Act. 20. 28. appointed others to oversee and rule the Flock with their Commission from the holy Ghost So he and the other Apostles when they departed this Life had others to succeed them for the Direction and Government of the Faithful And as those who cut themselves off from the Communion of the Apostles incurr'd the guilt of Damnation by unavoidably in so doing erring in Faith or Disobedience so likewise all those who separated from the Communion of their Successors it being at all times most certainly true that there was no true Faith nor true Charity in any that separated themselves from the Doctrine and Government of the Church of Christ over which the Apostles were Overseers and Rulers for their time and their Successors to be so after them to the end of the World. This as to the Apostles is evident from the severe censure of Deceivers pronounc'd against all those who endeavour'd to make Divisions in their time Ephes 4. 14. where they are said to work by the sleight of men and cunning craftiness whereby they lie in wait to deceive And 2 Tim. 2. 18. Such as dissented from the Apostles are condemn'd for erring concerning the Truth and overthrowing the Faith. And Tit. 3. 11. They are said to be subverted and in sin and to be condemn'd of themselves And as to their Successors the Practice of the Primitive Church in the time of her confess'd Purity is a most convincing Argument there being none that in the first three or four Centuries ever separated from them either in point of Doctrine or making Schisms tho under the most colourable pretext of Reforming Errors or rejecting Innovation but were declar'd Innovators as men to be avoided as cut off from the Mystical Body of Christ by the Pastors and Overseers then in being The Rule of St. John 1 Joh. 4. 6. being always the standard-Measure of the Church He that knows God heareth us he that is not of God heareth not us hereby know we the Spirit of Truth and the Spirit of Error Here then 't is evident that the Catholic Church in the time of the Apostles as also of their Successors was the Depository of the true Faith and that to dissent from her in Faith was to fall into Error to divide from God He that hears you hears me and he that despises you despises me Luke 10. 16. If he neglect to hear the Church let him be unto thee as an Heathen and a Publican Matth. 18. 17. and consequently no Promises of Christ nor Salvation to be expected by such who were not of her Communion This same One holy Catholic Church he believes to have continued in all Ages it being at all times true what has been always said by the Faithful in the Creed I believe the holy Ca-Cholic Church and that 't is to remain to the end of the World assisted by the Spirit of God and preserv'd from teaching errors according to the Promise of Christ Matth. 28. 20. Joh. 14. 16. So that as then so now at this time there is a Church succeeding that of the Apostles which teaches all Truth and from which none can separate without erring in Faith or incurring the guilt of Schism Sins altogether inconsistent with Salvation And because after most serious Considerations and the weighing of all Reasons he believes this Church to be that in whose Communion he is he do's not question but what is truly affirm'd of the Church of the Apostles and succeeding Ages and those that fell from it is most true of the same Church now in being of which he 's a Member and of all those who separate from it upon what pretext soever And however this may be painted out for Vncharitablenss yet 't is certainly the very Doctrine deliver'd by the Apostles and the Practice of the Primitive Church And when the worst has been made of it yet still he do's not come short of Dr. Tillotsons Charity for notwithstanding all this yet so much Charity he has and he desires always to have it as to hope that a great many of other separate Perswasions who live piously and have been
the Scripture in their Memory more Texts at their tongue's command more of the Books in their hands but 't is where more care is taken for imprinting the true Sence of these Words in the Vnderstanding of the People and where is us'd the most prudential method for the leading them into the truth of all the Mysteries contain'd in that sacred Volume And in this Point the Papist will yield to none for it is an unquestionable truth that when a Book contains high Mysteries of Religion Mysteries superiour to all Sence and Reason and those not deliver'd in expressions suited to every capacity but obnoxious to various interpretations such as may be wrested by the unlearned and unstable to their own Destruction in this case 't is an unquestionable truth I say that that People is in all probability likely to have more of the true Sence of this Book and to be better informed of the truth of the Mysteries it contains who are instructed in it by the Learned of that Communion and taught it by their Pastors Prelates and those whom God hath placed over them to govern and feed the Flock than any other People who have the Book put into their own hands to read it and search it and satisfie themselves For why Are not the Pastors more capable of teaching the People than the People are to teach themselves Or is it commendable in Scripture only and Religion for every one to be his own Master which in any other matter whosoever doe's it shall be esteem'd a Fool We know Moses Deut. 31. 9. gave the Book of the Law to the Levites to keep and read it every seven years to the People and in King Jehoshaphats reign 2 Chron. 17. 9. the Priests and Levits did read it and teach the People so did Jeremy Jer. 36. by Gods command so Isaiah so Ezekiel so the Levits Nehemiah 8. 8. Read in the Book in the Law of God distinctly and gave the Sence and caus'd them the People to understand the Reading And did not our Blessed Saviour Luc. 4. 17. take the Book of the Prophet and read it and expound it to the People And was not this the Office of the Apostles and Deacons to interpret the Scriptures and instruct their Followers what they were to believe and doe For this intention was Ananias sent to Saul Peter to Cornelius and Philip to the Eunuch who professedly own'd he could not understand the Prophet in so necessary a Point as that of the Messias without an Interpreter How can I understand said he except some man should guide me Act. 8. 31. Since therefore the Papists in delivering the Scripture come nearest to this Method commanded by God in the Old Law prescrib'd and practis'd by Christ and his Apostles in the New what People can be better instructed in the true sence of it and understand more of the Mysteries of the Christian Faith than they With what Reason can it be urg'd against the Vulgar of his Communion that the Scriptures are hid from them that they are bred up in blindness and ignorance Do not the Pastors expound the Scriptures to them do not they instruct them in every Point of their Religion and teach them the whole Duty of a Christian Is it not this they do in their Pulpits in their Catechisms in the Confessionaries in so many hundred spiritual Books plainly laying before them their whole obligation both as to Faith and Good manners And is this to conceal from them the Scripture Is the Word of God hid from them because they have their Pastors to instruct them in it Or are they any ways injur'd because they have learneder men than themselves to teach them Is the Multitude a better Judge of Scripture and more able to discover the truth of it than those whom God has plac'd over them Has God so deserted the Pastors and Prelates of his Church and is the Flock of late become so Wise The Faith of Christ was first planted by Christ's Preaching it to the Multitude by the same way 't was propagated by the Apostles and so it is to be deliver'd down to the end of the World Faith comes by hearing By this means many Barbarous Nations saies St. Irenaeus l. 3. adv har c. 3. believe in Christ have the Doctrine of Salvation written in their Hearts by the Holy Ghost without the help of Books and religiously observe the Traditions believing in one God c. Now 't is certain the Truth of this Christian Faith with all its Mysteries is unquestionably preserv'd in Christs Catholic Church and the People are to receive it and not to find out their Faith and Religion every one for themselves If they are afraid of being deceiv'd when they rely on their Pastors for it they run ten times the hazard when they trust to themselves The Papist therefore is taught that since Christ has a Church upon earth in which is conserv'd the truth of the Gospel 't is safer and more prudential for the People to be instructed in this Truth from the Pastors of this Church and by this means come to the Knowledg of the Word of God that is of its true sence and meaning than by committing the Book it self into the hands of the Multitude and leting every one understand it for themselves He knows 't is a very popular thing and acceptable to the prying Multitude to have a Book at command which directs the Way to Salvation but since 't is not the Book is to save him but the Truth and Doctrine which it teaches he believes 't is better learning this from those who are Wiser and are commissionated from Heaven to teach than to venture at it himself without any Authority The unhappy Divisions among Christians sufficiently inform him that to such Readers as St. Peter calls unreary and ignorant however wise they may think themselves Aâ—ianism may be as obvious in this Book as Christs Divinity and that when such an one undertakes the interpreting of it 't is an hazard whether at the end he comes out Quaker Anabaptist Presbyterian Independent Mugletonian Socinian or Atheist 'T is a Venture whether the Trinity shall have place in his Creed or no whether he 'll allow of Baptism or any Sacrament and whether Cruelty cutting of Throats Oppression Tyranny Dethroning of Kings and Murder of Princes shall not with him become a necessary Duty and a true serving of the Lord. For all these and more damnable Doctrines has he seen preach'd up and practic'd by those who have had the Bible in their Banners who have been esteem'd Searchers of the Word of God and presumptuously made their Comments upon this Sacred Text. And is it not this abuse that has occasion'd so many Schisms and almost broken the Mystical Body of Christ into pieces That whereas all his Followers should be of one mind now no body knows what Religion his Neighbour is of but every Wall now parts Religions more than Seas did heretofore And
And what think you now Misrepresenter tell me your Opinion was the Protestant Religion Anciently and Generally profess'd and practis'd in these Primitive Times when Constantine govern'd both the Western and Eastern World Do's the Church in his time practising as you have now seen acknowledg'd by unquestionable Authorities look like a Protestant Church If you know what 't is to be a Protestant tell me your mind Was Constantine and his Church Protestants or no Misrepresent You have hunted out for all the Superstâ—tions Errors and Oversights of that Age and now ask Whether the Professors were Protestants And I answer you They were Protestants as to the Doctrine of the Gospel and Creed which they profess'd tho' not as to their Oversights and Errors Represent That is to say in plain English They were Protestants as the Papists now are Protestants Any honest man by your appeal to and Pretext of Reformation according to the Primitive Times would have expected to have found a Protestant Religion profess'd and practis'd in those times as 't is now here in this Nation by Law establish'd And yet when we have taken a Prospect of those Primiâ—ive Ages we find the Christians then living Professors of no other Protestancy than such as is seen practis'd at this day in their Majesties Chappels at White-Hall Somerset house and St. James's and that I think is a Protestancy which is call'd Popery Misrepresent Why in our Reformation we are no more oblig'd to take in the Errors of Constantine 's time than those Corruptions we found in the time of Henry 8. No we Reform according to the Purity of the Gospel and have no other Rule than that of the Word of God Instructing and Directing us And as for all Superstitions they are alike rejected by us tho' some have Antiquity to plead in their behalf Represent Then I see however you pretend your Reformation has reduc'd Christianity to that state as 't was profess'd in the Primitive Times Yet when we come to look into those times thinking to find a Flourishing Uncontrol'd Protestancy Generally and Publickly Profess'd we are still as far to seek for 't as before and all that appears is the Doctrine of the Creed and Gospel profess'd but together with what you call the Errors and Superstitions of Popery so that to be a Protestant according to the Primitive Times is nothing else but to be a Papist Certainly this must be a very surprising disappointment to some to find Constantine the Great and Eusebius his Historian to be such kind of Popish Protestants as these who yet are set down by your Dr. Swadlin as the Ancient Protestants according to whose Faith and Practice the present Reformation was regulated and against whose Positions says he Ans 11. if we hold any thing name it we answer it prove it we yield So that let me tell you By what I can see as yet when a man has taken the pains to look back to those Primitive Ages he can be no more satisfied where the Protestant Religion as 't is now Reform'd was in the time of Constantine than when Luther began the Reformation but after all his search he must rest contented either with the Plain Mans Reply of its being Home where or other or else with the same It may be as was given to the Parishioner It may be 't was in the Greek in the Abassin and Egyptian Churches amongst the Armenian Christians It may be 't was in a Corner under a Cloud cover'd with Rubbish What if we say 't was no where Famil Discourse betwixt a Minister and Parishioner p. 14. ADVERTISEMENT THis is to give notice That this last Week were sound here in London several Good Protestant Lies concerning Flying Crabs seen in the Chappel at Somerset-house and of the Parish Church of St. James's in the Fields being undermin'd by the Papists and in danger of being demolished by Fire-Balls If the Right Owners will appear they shall be restor'd to them without Cost or Charges and if any will produce them they shall be well rewarded for their Pains Publish'd with Allowance Publish'd with Allowance Printed by Henry Hills Printer to the King 's Most Excellent Majesty for his Houshold and Chappel MDC LXXX VI. THE CATHOLIC REPRESENTER CHAP. XII Protestant Historians shew us Popery in the Primitive Church under Constantine but no Protestancy The Christians of that Age never Protested against the Popish Doctrines professedly Taught and Practis'd in those times Therefore they were no Protestants An Enquiry into the Religion of the Ages succeeding Constantine Represent IF you remember at our last meeting Misrepresenter we were looking back into the Primitive Times to see if we could find there the Protestant Religion as 't is now reform'd Generally Profess'd and Practis'd amongst the Christians of that Purer Age. But we lost our labour and all the Hopes You came big with ended in nothing but a disappointment Misrepresent 'T would be a Miracle indeed to find it as long as you have the carrying and management of the Light by which we are to make the Discovery Represent A short memory makes you Unreasonable Have you forgot so soon the very Means and Method by which we enter'd upon our Search were of your own Choice at least by approbation and consent Our business was to make enquiry after the Protestant Religion We agreed to examine the Religion Practis'd in Constantine's time who as your Dr. Swadlin says was a Protestant and in whose time according to your Divines the Protestant Religion was generally profess'd We took an account of the Religion of that Age from Eusebius a Protestant Professor too if you credit Dr. Swadlin and some other Modern Protestants The Translation of Eusebias we made use of was done by a Protestant approv'd and publish'd by Protestants and Printed at Cambridge Anno 1683. a Protestant Vniversity what possibly could be fairer done and more to your advantage And yet after all instead of meeting in those times with the Protestant Religion as now Reform'd we were got in the middle of Good Catholics Professing and Practising their Religion receiv'd from the Apostles pure as yet and uncorrupted as your Fulk and Calvin confess and such as you under the specious Pretext of Reformation have since made Odious and Criminal and done your best to hiss it out of the world Misrepresent The Reformers have preserv'd the Religion of those times Inviolable and have only labour'd to purge Christianity of the Errors then or since that time brought in to deform it Represent This is the proper Mark of the Beast Never a Reformer yet even from Arius to this Day but what has set up his Standard against Pretended Errors and Innovations And this is the stamp they set upon every thing that does not sute with their Humour Fancy or Interest The Reformers of the Reformation go by the same Rule and such as Reform agen upon those that Reform the Reformation still pursue this Method till at last they have
Reform'd away one after t'other all that belongs to Christianity Some reform'd away the greatest part of the holy Ceremonies and Religious Decency observ'd in Churches comes another sort and reform away what These left after them comes a Third and Reform away even the Churches themselves Some made a Reform of the Priestly Vestments retaining the Name of Copes and Miters with the Vse only of a Surplice the next reform the Surplice and the Third reform the Priests and Ministers themselves all out of doors Some began to reform the Sacraments and all were Superstitious but Two others came and thought these Two as Superstitious as the other Five and at last they have reform'd amongst them Religion so far till the only Christianity that is left without Error Corruption or Innovation is that which tho Protestancy still is without ever a Christian in it Misrepresent Certainly you have forgot what you were about and instead of looking for the Protestant Religion you have taken a leap from Constantine down into all the Enthusiasms of our Age. Represent No no We shall soon be back agen I have only given you a hint what 't is you call purging Christianity of Errors and Innovations and what edifying work it makes And by this we shall find there was no Protestant Religion Generally Practis'd and Profess'd amongst Christians in those days of Constantine of which we have lately taken a Survey Misrepresent How so Represent Because if the Protestant Religion had been at that time generally profess'd the Protestants then would have as zealously Protested against what you call the Errors and Innovations in Constantine's time as they did twelve hundred years after in the Reign of King Henry 8. Misrepresent Make that out Represent You know 't is the very Essence of Protestants to Protest against those Doctrines and Practices which they condemn as the Errors and Superstitions of Popery But such Doctrines and Practices there were in Constantine's time as Eusebius and other Historians declare and you your selves own Therefore if the Protestant Religion had been at that time genenerally profess'd they would have Generally Protested against those Doctrines and Practices But there was no General Protestation against those Doctrines and Practices by the Christians in Constantine's time Therefore the Christians in Constantine's time were not Generally Protestants Misrepresent Methinks this gingles something like a Syllogism Represent 'T is to that Tune and I think convincing enough to any serious Considerer that is acquainted with the Spirit of Protestantism Come I dare appeal to your judgment tho' so perversly byass'd for the Case is clear Don't you observe the Protestants that have been in the world ever since Luther's Pretended Reformation have not only Ridicul'd and Condemn'd what they call Romish Errors in the time of Henry 8. but likewise condemn the same practis'd as they own heretofore in the time of Constantine And here I ask of you Don't you think if Luther and his Fellow-Reformers had hapned in Constantine's time they would as certainly have Reform'd the Christian Religion of Constantine as they did afterwards of Hen. 8. Their loud Protesting against and condemning the Pretended Errors of both the One and the Others Religion is a sufficient intimation what they would have done had the Sins of Christendom so early provok'd the Divine Vergeance and brought them before into the World. Since therefore 't is evident it cannot be made appear That the Christians in Constantine's time did Protest against any such pretended Errors as the Protestants have done ever since Luther 't is evident there were no such Christians in those times as Protestants And however Dr. Swadlin confidently derives the Succession of the Protestant Religion not from the Waldenses Wicklifists and Hussits but from Constantine Eusebius c. You have now seen the One Practising the Other relating such Doctrines as are by Protestants now marked out for Superstitious without the lest guilt of Conscience or making any the least Protestation against them and what kind of Protestants these must have been who were thus deep in Popery I leave you to consider Only one thing still I le propose to you We have made hitherto some enquiry into the Christianity of those Former Times and look'd back upon those Christians Now suppose it had been your Fate to have been in those times just Protestant as you are at this day Had you gone into their Churches and seen there the lighted Candles the appeasing the Deity with Vnbloody Sacrifices and Mystic Consecrations Had you seen the Awful Translation of Holy Relicks Constantine prostrate at the Sepulcher of the Apostles and imploring their Intercession had you seen him signing his Forehead with the Cross and with great veneration repositing part of the Holy Cross for the security of the City Had you seen him Fasting and chastising his Body honouring Monks and Virgins by Vow consecrated to God Attributing Primacy to the Bishop of Rome and Subjecting all Christian Churches to him Had you seen the Body of the Deceas'd Emperor in the Church upon a stately Throne with the Priests and numerous Crouds in Tears and Sighs praying for his Soul Had you seen I say in those days the Christians serving God and publickly exercising their Religion in this manner would you have thought them Protestants Would this have agreed with the Notion of Protestantism you have now in your Head Or tell me seriously should you not have run out of their Churches and heartily Protested against them as Rank Papists And yet these are the Christians your Divines appeal to as the Antient Professors of the Protestant Religion 'T is according to these times they say they have Reform'd Christianity And that the Religion as now establish'd by Law in this Nation is the same as was then Antiently and Generally profess'd and practis'd in those Primitive Times Misrepresent You stand close tied up to Constantine s' time and there make your boasts You know we appeal to the First Five or Six Hundred Years and 't is not reason you shou'd confine the search to so narrow Bounds as the Reign of one Emperour Represent Wee 'll go forward therefore and see what was the Religion of all these Ages and because we cannot learn this better than from the Belief and Doctrine of the Eminent and Learn'd Fathers of of those Times wee 'll see what Information their Works will give us as they are acknowledg'd by the Centurists and other Protestant Historians and Writers The Century-Writers you must know give an Historical account of those Ages and in their Fourth Century dedicated to Q. Elizabeth and affirm'd by Protestants to be an Excellent Work worthy of immortal Memory they charge the Fathers of those Antient and Purer times with the holding the Doctrines as follow viz. with Justification by Works Merit Confession of Sins to a Priest Vnwritten Tradition Invocation of Saints Purgatory with Altars so call'd of Sacrifice offer'd upon them and Consecrated with the Sign of the
Profess'd with as little Control or Contradiction as t is at this Day in Italy or Spain I am sure if you should be told of any Neighbour of yours in this City that in his Devotions desires the Prayers of the Saints in Heaven Prays for the Souls of the Faithful Departed keeps Anniversary Days Signs his Forehead with the Sign of the Cross uses Exercisms Oyl Breathing and other Ceremonies in Baptizing his Children c. you would presently cry out A Papist A Papist And if you Censure such an one for a Papist now how can you perswade me the Primitive Christians were Protestants whom we have found Professing such Doctrines and Practices If it be Popery now to do so how was it Protestantism then Either you must make them Protestants that Teach those things at this Day amongst us or else they were none who Taught and Practis'd them heretofore Come I le ask you one Question Had you liv'd in those Days of the Primitive Church would you have Communicated or joyn'd with those Priests and Numerous People who after the Decease of Constantine were Praying round the Hearse for the Soul of the Emperour as 't is related by Eusebius de Vit. Const lib. 4 cap. 71 If you would not I conclude Those Priests and People were none of Your Church that is no Protestants And yet while you would have stood out then as Recusant I am confident such as at this Day Pray for the Soul of Charles 2. would then have Pray'd for Constantine's had they been then Living And These are such as you call Papists By which my Reason informs me That if â—le be a Christian as Christians were in the Primitive Church I must be no Protestant but a Papist since the Protestants of our Days would no more have joyn'd with the Christians of those Times than they do now with the Papists Misrepres You triumph now as if you had gotâ—a Victory and yet you have hiâ—herto done just nothing All your Proofs end in nothing but some Particular Instances and so I confess you have shewn some Private Doctors some Particular Men to have been acknowledg'd as infected with Popery in those Primitive Times by our Centuriators and other Protestant Divines But what 's all this to the Primitive Church Some Private Doctors and Opiniators might then be Papists 't is true but the Church was nevertheless Protestant Examine the Four First General Councils which were at that Time the Church Representative and you 'l see nothing Decreed by them but what We hold as Protestaâ—ts Repres You are for having me take all upon trust And tho' you cry out against Pinning Faith upon Sleeves yet I see if I don't pin my Faith upon your Sleeve I shall never be Protestant You Preach to me I must be guided by Reason and 't is not enough to Say the Primitive Church was Protestant but you must Prove it too if you 'l convince my Reason For my part by the Progress we have hitherto made I think I have Reason to think that not only some Private Men but that the Whole Church was then Popish as you call it For let us but reflect a little Who were These Men who by your Modern Protestants are accus'd of Popish Doctrines in those Times of Constantine and the Two Following Ages and we shall find they were the most Eminent the mosh Learned the most Exemplar and Best Men of their Times they were S. Augustine S. Hierome S. Chrysostome S. Athanasius S. Ambrose S. Gregory Nazianzen Nyssen S. Basil S. Hilary S. Cyril S. Paulinus S. Epiphanius c. These were the Men who living in those Primitive Ages of the Church are condemn'd and rejected by Modern Protestants for holding and maintaining Popish Doctrines These are they who are charg'd with Popery by the Centuriators by Osiander Chemnitius Melancthon Bullinger Beza Whitaker Humfrey Covel Whitgift Abbot Morton Fulk Trig Cartwright Field Hooker c. Now I need not ask here being upon Enquiry into the Faith of the Primitive Church whether Those Ancient Fathers cannot in all likelihood better inform me what was the Faith and Doctrine of the Church of their Times than other Modern Teachers who had not a Being in the World till Twelve or Thirteen Hundred Years after But I may consider with my self whether it be not most agreeable to Reason to think since such Eminent and Vertuous Men and Prelates as just now recited are accus'd of Popery that not only some Private Persons in those Primitive Times but that the Whole Church was then Popish I am assur'd by all Antiquity that these Persons that stand thus Indicted Govern'd the Primitive Church were Bishops Pastors and the most Exemplary of their Age the People or Flock were Instructed and Taught by them So that such Doctrines as they then Publish'd in their Writings and Preach'd to the People without Censure or Reproof I cannot look on as a Private or Closet-Concern but as the Public and Receiv'd Doctrine of their Times and that in the Sermons and Works of the Pastors is seen the Belief of the Flock And this will oblige me to conclude that Such Doctrines and Practices of which these Ancient Fathers and Doctors stand charg'd by Moderns was not the Doctrine of Private Men but of the Whole Church of their Times It being not at all probable to think while the Pastors are thus generally condemn'd for Papists that the People should be Protestants I demand of you Whether the Writings and Books of Protestant Prelates Doctors and Divines Publish'd under Edward 6. and Queen Elizabeth be not an Argument that besides shewing their Private Sentiments will prove likewise the Doctrine and Belief of Their Church and that whosoever quarrels with them for their Protestant Negatives and Dissenting from the Church of Rome do's not in the same Breath condemn their Whole Church of which they were Rulers and Overseers If so have not I equal Grounds to believe that the Concurring Sentiments of the Primitive Fathers was the Sense of the Primitive Church and that the accusing them of Popish Doctrines and Principles is a Condemnation of their Whole Church over which God had plac'd them Prelates Pastors and Teachers So that by all my Reason can discover yet if I am to be of the Religion of the Primitive Times I am to be no Protestant but continue as I am a Papist and if I were not so this your Appealing to the Primitive Church and our Search into it would e'en oblige me to renounce Your Communion who only make a Noise of the Primitive Church and are nothing like it but are as much for Reforming that as you did the Church of Henry 8. Misrepres Leave these Private Doctors and Fathers and look but into the First Four General Councils and you 'l soon discover that the Church of those Primitive Christians was nothing else but Protestant Repres I find too much of the Pope in those Councils to think they were Protestants The Pope Presides
in his Sermon at Paul's Cross to all his Learned Adversaries the Papists to bring against the Protestant Doctrine any one sufficient Sentence out of any One Catholic Doctor or Father for the Space of Six hundred Years after Christ and he is content to yield Whitaker renews the same Challenge Resp ad rat Camp. p. 90. provoking the Papists to the first Six hundred Years and if they can produce any one Father or Council against the Protestant Articles he grants the Victory It is the Offer of us all says he the same do we all promise and we will perform it So that as far as I see I have not exceeded the Protestant Bounds Repres Neither have I in our Enquiry pass'd these Limits Our Search has been restrain'd within the Compass of the First Six hundred Years and the whole System of Popery I have laid before you has been the Belief and Practice of the Christians of those Times And this will oblige you to consider what Grounds you have to trust to for the Support of the Pretended Reformation whilst you see some eminent Protestants Appealing to the Primitive Church of the First Six hundred Years and Challenging the Papists to produce any One Doctor in favour of Popery within that Compass and yet other Protestants at the same time are charging the most Learned and Eminent Fathers of those Ages as Abbettors of Popery and reprove them for being infected with Popish Doctrines Misrepres This you have been often Saying but I must see it Prov'd Repres Do you keep then in your Mind the Challenge of Bishop Jewel above mention'd wherein he provokes the Papists to shew One Father holding against the Protestant Doctrine in the First Six hundred years and bidding them Defiance upon this Trial the like of Whitaker and others and I le let you see the Concessions of some other Protestants upon the same Subject But have Patience then 1. For the allowing Vows of Perpetual Chastity and affirming them to be Obligatory S. Basil Ambrose Chrysostome Epiphanius and S. Austin are reprov'd by Chemnitius Exam. p. 3. p. 41 42. And the General Council of Chalcedon is confess'd to have forbidden Marriage to Monks and Nuns by Just Molit de Eccl. Milit. p. 80. 2. As touching the Sacrament Chrysostom is thought to confirm Transubstantiation Centur. 5. col 517. Eusebius Emissenus did speak unprofitably of Transubstantiation Cent. 4. col 985. In Cyprian are many Sayings which seem to affirm Transubstantiation Ursin Commen p. 211. 3. As concerning Sacrifice it is affirm'd by Learned Protestants that the Ancient Fathers viz. Athanasius Ambrose Austin c. err'd herein So Calvin and Dr. Field who say of them that they made a Sacrifice of the Lords Supper The Centurists likewise affirm of Cyprian that his Judgment in this Point is Superstitious Cent. 3. col 83. That the Writings of Irenaeus and Ignatius are herein incommodious and dangerous Cent. 2. c. 4. col 55. And that presently after the Apostles Times the Supper of our Lord was turn'd into a Sacrifice sebas Franc. in Ep. de Abrog 4. Concerning Prayer for the Dead It was general in the Church lorg before the Days of Austin as appears in Cyprian and Tertullian So Mr. G. Gifford in his Demonst p. 38. Mr. Fulk likewise acknowledges that Tertullian Cyprian Austin Jerome and a great many more do witness that Sacrifice for the Dead is the Tradition of the Apostles Consut of Purg. p. 362. That Prayer and Alms were made for the Dead almost from the very beginning of the Church Bucer in Enar. 4. Evang. in Mat. c. 12. 5. Concerning Merit of Works Dr. Humfrey says It may not be deny'd but that Ireuaeus Clement and others who are call'd Apostolical Men have in their Writings the Opinions of Free-will and Merit of Works Jesuitism par 2. p. 530. Origen and Chrysostome are affirm'd by the Centuriators to have handled impurely the Doctrine of Justification and that they attribute Merit to Works Cent. 3. col 265. and Cent. 5. col 1178. And not only Cyprian but almost all the Holy Fathers of that Time were in that Error as thinking so to pay the Pain due to Sin and to satisfie Gods Justice Whitak in Resp ad Rat. Camp. Rat. 5. 6. Concerning Invocation of Saints The Lord Archbishop of Cant. Discoursing of Doctrines taught in any Age since the Apostles Times affirms without any Exception of Age or Father That almost all the Bishops and Writers of the Grâ—ek Church and Latin also for the most part were spotted with Doctrines of Free-will Merit Invocation of Saints c. Whitgift Def. ag Rep. of Cartw. p. 473. Mr. Fulk likewise says I confess that Ambrose Austin and Jerome held Invocation of Saints to be lawful Rejoyn to Brist p. 5. S Cyprian is charg'd by the Cent. to maintain That Martyrs and Saints departed pray for the Living Cent. 3. col 84. Origen likewise with Prayer for himself to Holy Job and Invocation of Angels Cent. 3 col 83. and col 75. The same Centurists affirm moreover That there are manifest Steps of Invocation of Saints in the Doctors of that Ancient Age. Cent. 3. c. 4. col 83. 7. Concerning Confession and Absolution The Centurists confess That even in those Times of Cyprian and Tertullian was us'd Private Confession and that the same was then commanded and thought necessary Cent. 3 c. 6. col 127. That also Penance or Satisfaction was enjoyn'd according to the Offence Ib. And likewise that the Priest when the Confession was made and Penance enjoyn'd did afterwards Absolve the Penitent with the Ceremony of Impâ—sing his Hand Cent. ib. 8. Concerning the Primacy of Peter above the other Apostles the Ancient Fathers of the Church viz. Jerome Hilary Nazianzen Tertullian Cyprian Origen are reprehended by the Protestant Centurists viz. for affirming the Church to be built upon Peter Cent. 4. col 1215 555 558 c. The same Centurists reprove S. Cyprian for teaching say they without any foundation of Scripture that the Roman Church ought to be acknowledg'd of all other for the Mâ—ther and Root of the Catholic Church Cent. 3. col 84. In like manner Irenaeus who as Hamelmannus says might yet remember the Apostles own lively Preaching is condemn'd by the Centurists for his affirming That all the Churches ought to accord to the Roman Church in regard of a more powerful Principality for which words they charge him with a corrupt Saying concerning the Primacy of the Roman Church Cent. 2. Alph. Tab. word Irenaeus And this Authority of the B. of Rome D. Philip Nicolai referreth for its beginning to the Infirmity of the Apostles and of the first succeeding Bishops of Rome in Comment de Reg. Christ p. 221. With whom concurs Mr. Middleton in his Papist Mast p. 193. No marvail therefore says he tho' perusing Councils Fathers and Stories from the Apostles forward we find the Print of the Popes Feet For these and all other Points of Catholic Doctrine the
currant Testimonies of the Ancient Fathers are so certain and evident that many Learned Protestants upon this Consideration refuse to stand the Test of their Authorities thinking it far more advantageous to their Cause to give them a general Disclaim Hence Mr. Whitaker affirms the Popish Religion to be patcht up out of the Fathers Errors Cont. Dur l. 6. p. 423. And Dr. Humfrey most severely reprehends Mr. Jewel for his so bold Appeal to the Primitive Fathers affirming that herein Mr. Jewel gave the Papists too large a scope was injurious to himself and after a manner spoil'd himself and the Church Misrepres So then I see you intend to claim the Fathers not only of Constantine 's Time and the Following Ages as Abettors of Popery but likewise Those who in the First Centuries immediately succeeded the Apostles And what Room then do you leave for Protestancy Repres 'T is not only I that claim Them but even the Protestants themselves you see of the precedent Age such who were not asham'd to speak the Truth make a surrender of them laying aside all Pretensions either to Them or their Doctrine And when they have disown'd all the Fathers one by one from Clement Ignatius Irenaeus who liv'd in the Apostles Days and succeeded them in their Function to S. Jerome Austin Leo Gregory the last of which surviv'd the Fifth Century when they have declar'd that Antichrist began his Reign and obscur'd the Light of the Gospel even from the Time of the Apostles I wonder what Room as you say there 's left for Protestancy It savours something of a Mystery methinks call'd Nonsense to say the Protestant Religion is the same Pure Religion as was Anciently and Generally Profess'd amongst the Fathers and Christians of the Primitive Church and then to condemn the same Fathers and Christians of the Primitive Church for being infected with Popery and giving way to Antichrist Wherefore to avoid these Inconveniences if you 'l take my Advice Misrepresenter I believe you had better pretend no longer Right to the Primitive Fathers but as you have condemn'd the Eight hundred Years next before the Reformation of Damnable Errors and Popish Superstitions to take one step further back and e'en take in the other Six hundred Years too and so condemn them all in the lump from Christ's Time to Luther for being Papists and Popishly affected Never Mince the matter They were all Men you know and subject to Error and when you are once in 't is as easily condemning your Fore-fathers for Fourteen Ages as for Eight Your First Reforming-Apostles were something of this mind and thought it no more difficulty to Censure and Condemn the Primitive Fathers than Those they found in the time of K. Henry 8. but were for Reforming all with the same Hand Hearken a little to your courageous Luther In the Writings says he of Jerome there is not a word of True Faith in Christ and Sound Religion Tertullian is very Superstitious I have held Origen long since Accursed of Chrysostome I make no account Basil is of no worth he is wholly a Monk I value him not of a Hair Cyprian is a Weak Divine The Apology of Philip Melancthon far excels all the Dostors of the Church and exceeds even Austin himself Coll. Mens c. de Patr. Eccles And in another place The Fathers says he of so many Ages have been plainly Blind and most Ignorant in the Scriptures They err'd all their Life-time and unless they were mended before their Deaths they were neither Saints nor pertaining to God's Church To. 2. l. de Serv. Arbit Peter Martyr is of the same mind and therefore says plainly That as long as we stand to Councils and Fathers we shall always remain infected with the same Errors viz. of Popery And certainly Misrepresenter these Your First Setters up for Reformation were in the Right on 't for nothing can possibly so strengthen Protestancy and justifie the Separation as this Levelling Divinity For your Going by halves and pretending to be of the Religion of the First Ages of the Church fills People with Doubts and Scruples whilst looking back upon the Professors of those Times instead of Protestancy they find so much Popery amongst them Publish'd with Allowance Printed by Henry Hills Printer to the King 's Most Excellent Majesty for his Houshold and Chappel M DC LXXX VI. THE CATHOLIC REPRESENTER CHAP. XVI A New Way of making all the Popish Sayings of the Primitive Fathers to be Good Protestancy The Art of Interpreting do's Feats it makes way for Atheism and Infidelity Represent HOW stands your Head to day Misrepresenter have you Consider'd the Proposal I made you at our last Meeting Are you for disclaiming all Title to the Primitive Church and Huffing those Ancient Fathers as Luther Peter Martyr and others did who designing a Through-Reformation were alike for calling those Great Doctors to an account of the First Ages as they did those they found in the Time of King Henry 8 Or are you for Reforming upon These First Reformers and taking in those Primitive Fathers of the Church for Protestants which They cast off and Condemn'd for Papists Misrepres I have Consider'd this Matter very seriously and taken the Advice of Friends upon the Point And therefore to be short with you I value no more the Saying of Luther than he did Those Ancient Fathers whom he condemn'd as Weak Divines Superstitious and Valu'd not of a Hair. He was so near the Times of Darkness that he could not well look back and make Judgment of any thing behind him Repres Nay I commend you in this 't is only just to serve him in his kind 'T was Tertullian's Saying Curâ—â—nm idem licet Marcionitis quod Marcioni If Marcion has rebell'd against the Church why should his Followers think much to rebel against him And since Luther cast off all Authority and valu'd not the Writings and Doctrine of the most Eminent Fathers of the Primitive Church why shou'd any one think much of undervaluing him by his own Example If Luther could so easily throw by S. Cyprian for a Weak Divine and S. Basil for being wholly a Monk is not this Precedent enough for any Follower of Luther to cast him off for an Apostate Friar and an Ambitious Divine Well but if you Reform upon Luther in this Point and don 't think fit with him to lay aside all the Writings of the Ancient Fathers as Erroneous and Superstitious what do you do with all those troublesome Passages in their Works wherein They are such Positive Asserters of Popish Doctrines that 't is impossible for any Man to take the Authors for any thing but Papists which do's not well suit with your Claim to them as Protestants Misrepres Pish I value no more these Difficulties than Luther did the Fathers that is not of a Hair. If the First Reformers bad their Eyes but half open what 's that to us who have the Noon-light of the Gospel shining upon us