the very challenging of such a Right which belongs only to the truly Catholic Church is a strong proof that She alone is that Church which hath a Right to challenge it and would prove her self a false Church if She did not challenge it But because perhaps you cannot easily induce your mind to consider her otherwise than as a particular Church I confidently believe that if the Eastern Church were united in one Body with the Western you would not find any difficulty to think your self obliged to yield an entire Obedience to so great an Authority Prot. This I willingly acknowledg §. 32. Cath. Be pleased then to reflect on some Age when these two great Churches were united for example in the days of St. Gregory the Great Then there was a perfect agreement through the whole World excepting only the Societies of Ancient Heretics acknowledged for such by Protestants Then both Doctrine and Discipline was uniform every where What St. Gregory taught was accepted through the whole Church Yea those parts of his Writings which are most opposite to your Doctrines as his Dialogues c. have presently after his time been translated into the Greek tongue and with veneration received by that Church Whence will follow that what he hath taught us in his Writings touching Points of Religion and which you most mislike was then esteem'd true Catholic Doctrine Now what does St. Gregory teach but the same which is now taught in the Roman Church In all Controversies lately raised between Catholics and Protestants he is constantly and directly against Protestants This is so manifest that it is acknowledged by many learned Protestants who describing the particular Points of Religion professed by St. Gregory and St. Augustine the Monk sent by him to convert England name these Freewill Merit and Iustification of Works Pennance Satisfaction Purgatory Celibacy of Priests publick Invocation of Saints and Worshipping of them Veneration of Images Exorcisms Pardons Vows Monachism Transubstantiation Prayer for the Dead Oblation of Christ's Body and Blood for the Dead the Roman Bishop's Iurisdiction over all Churches Celebration of Mass Consecrations of Churches Altars Chalices Corporals and Fonts of Baptism Veneration of Relicks Sprinkling of Holy-Water Dedicating Churches to the Bones and Ashes of Saints Indulgencies to such as visit Churches on certain days Pilgrimages and in a word the whole Chaos of Popish Superstition as they are pleased to stile it So that Mr. Ascham affirms of our Apostle St. Augustine the Disciple of St. Gregory that He was the overthrower of true Religion and the establisher of all Popish Doctrines and another saith of him That he subjected England to the lust of Antichrist which Antichrist you must take for granted was St. Gregory and therefore after his death went undoubtedly to Hell there to receive his reward Thus evident Convictions forced them to confess that all the Doctrines of Faith now taught were then professed as Catholic Doctrines but gall and malice against the Church suggested such foul unseemly words to their Pens Notwithstanding Protestant Writers when not being engaged in controversie they have occasion to treat of St. Gregory himself they are not sparing in their Elogies of him such as these He was a holy and a learned Bishop He was by Name and indeed truly Great adorned with many and great endowments of Divine Grace and as he is often styled the mouth and shining light of our Lord. He was truly a pious man and for his Christian humility yet more to be praised From his Infancy being addicted to the studies of Piety he retired into a Monastery where shewing a particular sanctity of life and being wholly intent upon Prayer he drew the eyes of all men upon him He did so discharge the Pontifical Office that following ages never had his equal much less any one excelling him He was exceedingly renowned for Miracles c. Now me thinks Sir the consent of the Eastern and Western Churches under the Government of such a Prelate so versed as he was in holy Scripture witness his Sermons and Commentaries should be so prevalent with you as to make you suspect your own Reason if it suggests to you that the Religion professed in his days was superstitions and idolatrous § 33. Prot. But why do you say that the Universal Church in the East and West was governd by Saint Gregory when he himself sharply condemned the Patriarch of Constantinople for assuming such a Title as Universal Bishop which he calls an Antichristian Title Cath. It was indeed a Title full of arrogance and therefore justly condemned by St. Gregory in the Notion in which he conceived it might be understood as if the Patriarch pretended thereby to be esteemed the only legitimate Bishop in the Eastern Church For thence it would follow that all other Bishops were only his Substitutes acting by his commission and removeable by him at pleasure Whereas they claim a reception of their Order and Character immediately from Christ alone Such a new Title therefore it was that St. Gregory condemned in that Patriarch and abhorred to accept himself as plainly appears by his Epistles But yet that he had a Superintendence over the whole Church as Supreme Pastor thereof to receive and judge Appeals of Bishops from all Parts in causis majoribus to oblige all Prelates even Patriarchs to the Profession of the Faith established in Councils and the observance of the Churches Laws and to impose Ecclesiastical Censures on all Transgressors of them this St. Gregory challenged and to this the Prelates both of the Western and Eastern Churches also submitted as appears by many Epistles sent by him and Answers received from several Patriarchs and other Prelates in the East §. 34. Since therefore it is confessedly certain that the present Roman Church professes the same Religion which Saint Gregory taught and planted in England which the Eastern Church in those times approved without any contradiction and which is now condemned by Protestants it will evidently follow that in those few Points in which the present Eastern Churches quarrel with the Roman the said Eastern Churches only have been Innovators and consequently that the Roman Church that is all Churches united in subordination to the Prime Patriarch and Pastor still remains the Catholic Church and enjoys the same Authority which the Universal Church in and before St. Gregories days enjoyed So that all Christians who break from her Communion do thereby shew themselves Schismaticks and Self-condemned §. 35. I have purposely made choice to instance in the time of St. Gregory the Great because on the one side several Protestants impute the beginning of the Churches depravation principally to that Age and on the other side Almighty God as if he had a design to confute and silence their accusations chose that Age especially in which to accomplish that most illustrious of all Prophesies foreshewing the glory of the Catholic Church which is the Conversion of Nations from Heathenish Idolatry
Discipline and Faith shall appear to be there also will be the Truth of Scriptures and Expositions and all Christian Traditions Si quid horum per orbem frequentat Ecclesia Amongst such things whatsoever is practised by the Church through the world to dispute whether she ought not to be imitated therein is a mark of most insolent madness Scire sufficit It is a sufficient Motive to reject from our Belief whatsoever we know to be contrary to the teaching of the Church Dicet aliquis si Divinis eloquiis It may be demanded how if both the Devil and his Disciples do make use of and apply Divine Scriptures Sentences and Promises of whom some are false Apostles others false Prophets and all of them Heretics What shall Catholic children of our Mother the Church do How shall they discern truth from falshood in interpreting Holy Scriptures Hereto we answer according as we have received from Holy and learned men before us that they must be very careful to interpret Scriptures according to the Traditions of the Universal Church and according to the Rules of Catholic Doctrine THE SECOND QUESTION BUT WHY ARE YOU A PROTESTANT §. 45 CAth. Sir Have you considered seriously on the Subject of our last Discourse Prot. Yes Cath. And have you found either in Scripture Tradition Councils or Holy Fathers any warrant to remain divided both in Doctrine and Discipline from all Churches antiently existent upon Earth and at the same time to profess notwithstanding a Belief of One Holy Catholic Church out of whose Communion there is no Salvation Prot. I freely accknowledge that I am not able to produce any considerable Quotations to confront yours Quotations I mean asserting the Authority of particular or new-erected Churches independent on others Cath. Then since it seems both Scripture Tradition Councils and Fathers have given their Testimonies against you Why are you still a Protestant §. 46. Prot. Sir I suppose you do believe I should be very glad to find out a Church to whose Authority I could think my self obliged entirely to submit mine own judgment and securely to commit my Soul to her guidance But hitherto not having been able to find such an one I must be content to stay where I am For as for the Roman Church to whose Communion alone you would invite me she appears to me so wholly depraved that I think a real Miracle would hardly draw me to joyn my self to her Communion Cath. I see Sir that you despairing to justifie your own Churches and to excuse them from Schism do seek to draw me to particular Disputes By which notwithstanding you can receive no benefit at all whatever the success of such Disputes shall be For still the unpardonable guilt of Schism will lie upon you However I will not refuse so far to comply with you Therefore tell me Wherein consists that depravation you speak of Prot. It consists in this that both her Doctrines and Discipline are framed as on purpose to comply with wordly interests and by consequence are opposed to the Spirit of Christianity Cath. How does that appear §. 47. Prot. It appears more than sufficiently in this that as the late learned Arcbishop of Spalato observes all those Points of your Belief and Practice which we condemn and for which we separate from your Church are such as manifestly have a strong influence on the satisfying either her Ambition or Covetousness Cath. Which are the Points which you suppose to comply with Ambition Prot. These which here follow 1. Your Churches assuming the Title of Catholic to her self alone with exclusion of all other Churches 2. The Popes assumed Universal Authority 3. His pretended Infallibility in determining Controversies 4. His usurped Temporal Authority 5. A Power to be acknowledged as given to Priests by consecrating the outward Symbols to make the glorified Body of our Saviour present on the Alter 6. The Offering it in Sacrifice to the Father 7. The exposing of it to mens Adoration 8. The Obligation imposed on all sinners to discover their most secret sins to Priests in Confession and to submit to satisfactions enjoyned by them 9. A proud esteem of attaining to Iustification and Salvation by your own Merits Thus your Clergy not content to invent Doctrines proper to procure their own Exaltation would instill Pride into the people also §. 48. Cath. For what Doctrines do you accuse the Roman Church of Covetousness Prot. Of this latter sort are the Romane Doctrines 1. Touching Prayer for the dead and Purgatory out of the torments whereof Souls are to be redeemed by Masses Alms c. 2. The gaining of Heaven by mony given for Indulgences 3. The Invocation of Saints 4. The worshipping of their Images and Relicks To which Pilgrimages are ordained with costly Offerings c. §. 49. Cath. This Observation made by the infamous Apostate you named if rightly considered truly seems to argue a guilt somewhere yet not in the Church but much rather in those who seperated from her For it strongly argues that since to oppose her they made choice only of those Points which regarded the Honour Authority and Wealth of the Clergy the true Motives inducing them to rebel against the Church were not any zeal for Truth or care for their Souls for they acknowledg her Orthodox as to all Points of Doctrine approved by former Heretics That therefore which stirred up their rage against her was Envy Hatred of Obedience and a thirst unquenchable to rob her of the Treasure and Possessions conferred on her by the Piety of their Holy Progenitours Now Sir tell me sincerely If you were to establish a Church would you take for your pattern that Schismatical King Ieroboam who chose Priests from the dreggs of the People or God himself who instituted a splendid Clergy Prot. It cannot indeed be denied but that contemptible needy and depending Directours of Souls will but very meanly discharge so high an Office as Christ has committed to them having made them Spiritual Iudges of Mankind and stiled them the Light of the world and the Salt of the Earth §. 50. Cath. If the first Reformers had been of your Judgment they would first have reformed in themselves their inordinate Passions But Sir if you please let us leave the judgment of mens secret intentions to Almighty God to whom alone they are open and transparent However this may with full assurance be asserted That if Sacriledge and freedom from Ecclesiastical Iurisdiction were not the only prime Motives they were and will be the prime Effects of your multiplied Reformations §. 51. Prot. I am well content to desist from enquiring into the secret thoughts of persons on either side And therefore I will henceforth consider the forementioned Points in debate between us absolutely and in themselves And so doing you must give me leave to say That this also may with full assurance be asserted that whatever Motives the Roman Church may have to
truly would to me be sufficient Cath. Then since we are not met here to mannage a formal Dispute give me leave to desire you seriously to peruse what has passed very lately in Writings on this Argument between Monsieur Arnauld a Doctor of Sorbon and the most subtle of the Huguenot Ministers called Monsieur Claude There besides Testimonies of Antiquity you will find our Catholic Doctrine acknowledged by the Prime Bishops of Greece Muscovy Armenia and many other Oriental Sects who by their Attestations subscribed with their Names before Witnesses have professed that the Doctrine touching the Real Presence and Change of the Visible Elements into the very Body and Blood of Christ is the constant Doctrine of all their respective Congregations and that it has been so delivered to them by their Ancestors from the beginning Prot. Truly Sir if this appear to me I shall not trouble my self with Doubts or Objections from School Philosophy nor examine the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 How such a change is made which Examination hath been long since condemned by St. Cyrill of Alexandria but humbly submit my judgment and assent to what God has revealed as I do also in the Mysteries of the Blessed Trinity the Incarnation c. For indeed I find that the Doctrine touching the Holy Eucharist has from the beginning been delivered as a Mystery also incomprehensible by natural Reason §. 70. Cath. You may add hereto that even the Calvinists themselves though the most perverse Enemies to this Mystery yet afford a considerable Proof of it against themselves For seeing clearly the Tradition touching the Real Presence so fully attested in the Writings of the Holy Fathers and in Ancient Councils they even when they endeavour with most eagerness to oppose it oppose it in language counterfeiting that of Antiquity so ashamed are they to renounce both the sense and expressions too of the Primitive Church This may be observed not only in the Polemical Writings of Mestrezat Anbertin and others of their Champions but even in their Catechism and simple Confession of their Faith For there we read That our Saviour nourishes and quickens us with the substance of his Body and Blood That he is given us in the Sacrament according to his proper Substance And that though he be truly communicated to us both by Baptism and the Gospel Yet that is only in part and not entirely so that it seems in the Eucharist they receive him whole and entirely Moreover that the Body of the Lord Iesus in as much as it hath been once offered in Sacrifice to reconcile us to God it is now in the Eucharist given us to rectify us that we have part in that reconciliation § 71. And as for English Protestants the time was within mans memory when not only the Prelates of this Church without Huguenotical hypocrisy delivered their Belief of this Mystery in expressions very Catholic but his Majesties learned and wise Grand-Father giving the world an account of the Faith of that Church of which he was the Head delivers it thus We acknowledg a Presence of Christ in the Sacrament no less true then you Roman Catholics but we dare not determine the manner of it Neither truly dare we Catholics Thus learned Protestants wrote and spoke before this last worse then Zuinglian Reformation and new Rubrick since which time the English Church has permitted all fanatical sectaries to make her a brocher of all their frenzies and a justifier of Doctrines which devour her very vitals Prot. Enough of this Sir Be pleased now to proceed to the next Point 5. Of Adoration of Christ in the Holy Eucharist §. 72. Cath. The next controverted Doctrine regards the Adoration of Christ in the Holy Sacrament Concerning which the sum of the Churches Faith is comprized in this her Decision Whosoever shall say that Christ the only begotten Son of God ought not to be adored in the Holy Sacrament of the Eucharist with the Supream Worship Latria even external And that his Adorers are Idolaters let him be Anathema Now the Doctrine touching the Real Presence being once established will sufficiently justify this for certainly it is not only lawful but our Duty to adore Christ whereever he is truly present And consequently this Practice of Adoring our Lord in his Sacrament is by the same Universal Tradition delivered and ordained in all Publick Liturgies both of the Grecian and other Oriental Churches §. 73. But the great and too willing mistake of our Adversaries is that they impute to us the Adoration of the Visible Elements Whereas the proper Object of our Worship is not any Visible thing Nay we do not terminate our Worship percisely in the Body of Christ which we beleive invisibly present The proper Object of our worship is the Person of Christ God and Man veiled under the Visible Elements So that in case it should happen through some incapacity in the Minister or defect in the manner or matter that the Elements should not be effectually consecrated and yet we beleiving Christs Body to be Sacramentally present should so worship him in this indeed would be a circumstantial mistake but here would be no Idolatry nor indeed any fault in us the Errour being supposed undiscoverable by us The reason is because the Belief of the Presence of Christs Body is truly grounded on Divine Revelation and not a fond fancy such as was that of the Manicheans worshiping Christ as peculiarly present in the Sun or of the Isrealites conceiving God to be peculiarly present in the Calves at Bethel And to this you may see Daille yeilding his consent in his Apology for the Reformed Churches the eleventh Chapter It is observable with what strange and unreasonable partiality the Calvinists treat Catholics in this Point They give their judgment that there is no dangerous Venome in the Doctrine of the Lutherans touching this matter and therefore have Synodically granted them admission to their Cene which the Lutherans scorn Now the Lutherans profess the Real Presence of Christs Body together with the Bread and some of them acknowledg Adoration due to him there So that to a Calvinists conscience the same or a worse Doctrine held by a Sectary looses all its poyson it is only dangerous to believe what the Church teaches Yea those very Calvinists acknowledg also that if Christ be in such a special manner really present Adoration would be due to him Some Lutherans deny this But whether they affirm or deny any thing upon condition they will stay out of Gods Church they shall be welcome Brethren to Calvinists Prot Truly such a dis-ingenuous want of Honesty and such interessed Compliance is very justly to be condemned You may now proceed 6. Of the Sacrifice and Oblation of Christs Body on the Altar §. 74. Cath. The next Point with regard to the Holy Eucharist quarrelled at by Protestants is our Doctrine touching the Sacrifice of Christs Body on the Altar concerning which the summ