all Ages of which all sorts must learne Faith necessary to salvation Rogers in his first Answere The perpetuall Visibilitie of the Church I acknowledge but I pray you set mee downe vvhat a visible Church is and vvhat you meane by these vvords all sorts vvhether Children dying before they come to yeares of discretion to learne this Faith be not after Baptisme parts of the Visible Church Secondly vvhat you meane by learne Whether 1. An actuall explicit knowledge Or 2. An habituall onely implicit knowledge Thirdly vvhat points of Faith you hold necessary to Salvation Rogers second Answer That some grounds must be layd for all Discourse I thinke my Adversary will not deny seeing all discourse is a drawing of Conclusions from some precedent received premisses whether of Principles naturally manifest and cleare of themselves or of some supposed received and agreed upon Some grounds I laid which Mr. Fisher or his Second here would have the Reader beleeve hee hath refuted for almost every Page hath this Title Master Rogers most weake grounds But how effectually he hath performed it shall appeare in his place The first thing I requested here of M. Fisher was to define a visible Church and to explaine an ambiguous phrase both as necessary grounds as may be for discourse for ambiguities are thickets wherein Sophisters doe hide themselves and the first grand fallacy which they use who would deceive others and doe often deceive themselves neither is the Respondent bound by Rules of Art to answer such an Opponent Aristot Elench 2. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 It is cleare that an aequivocator deserves no answer The other ground which I requested him to lay was a definition of the visible Church To this the Author of this Treatise giveth no answer although if he have any Schoole-learning hee must confesse that this is the first ground to be layd and best meanes to begin any Treatise to attaine exact knowledge of what we enquire after and to resolve all doubts that may arise Without this all Disputations are full of difficulties saith Arist This is the scope of all Logick saith Zabarel your learned Logick and Philosophie Reader of Padua You propose a question Whether the Protestants be a Church what more requisite here than to explicate your Termes and define a Church which I formerly requested you to doe and now againe make the same motion Fisher The Question propounded by M. Fisher at the entreatie of a Gentleman who desired satisfaction was Whether the Protestant Church was visible in all ages especially in the ages before Luther And whether the names of the Professors thereof may be shewed in all ages out of good Authors Rogers in his first Answer A Church professing the same faith which the Protestants now doe was visible in all ages and I do undertake to prove it out of good Authors Rogers in his second Answer To this M. Fisher or his Second have made no reply not as much as to say whether that will serve their turne or whether I must shew the names of Protestants in all ages If this later then may I require of M. Fisher or any other Iesuit to shew mee the names of Iesuits in all ages whose name began within these hundred yeares or not much more and for defect of such names argue against them thus They who are of the Church can shew their names to have been in all ages since Christ But no man can shew the name of Iesuits to have been in all ages since Christ Ergo No Iesuite is of the Church If I should call upon you for the names of Iesuits I should serve you as you serve us but I wil not use such poore miserable shifts as these which are no other then the cavils of men that have nothing to say that is worth the hearing as I will after shew in his due place Let this suffice for this place I professe that if Master Fisher or any other Iesuit can shew me that a Church professing the same faith which the Iesuits now doe was visible in all ages I will be of their faith though they can not shew me the names of Iesuits in those former times Fisher CHAP. III. M. Fisher undertooke to defend the negative part so as it did belong to his Adversary to prove the Affirmative MAster Fisher explicated the meaning of his Question to bee that first His Adversarie should set downe Names of men in all ages whom they thought to bee Protestants Secondly that they should shew out of good Authours proofe that they were Protestants Thirdly that they should defend them to hold nothing contrary to the doctrine of Protestants contained in the 39. Articles unto which all English Ministers are sworne Rogers in his first Answer To the First I wil shew the names of such as maintained our now Faith in all ages and bring good proofe To the second the Church of Rome cannot produce Fathers in all ages who doe not contradict the Councell of Trent in some doctrines established in the said Councell To the third It is no prejudice to our Faith if the same Authors doe differ from us in other opinions not concerning Faith as long as they maintaine our faith Fisher his Question Whether the Protestant Church was visible in all ages especially in the ages before Luther And whether the names of the Professors thereof may be shewed in all ages out of good Authors Rogers Mr. Fisher you here confound two Propositions or Questions delivering them both as one whereas they are very different and may subsist the one without the other For a Protestant Church may bee extant in all ages and yet no names of the Professors to be found for every age and this existence of such a Church may be proved by generall testimony of History as that the Christian Religion was here in Britaine before the comming of Augustine the Monke Hist. Angl. l. 2. c. 2. may be proved out of Beda who maketh mention of British Bishops but nameth none of them In vita Constantini lib. 3. c. 18. Here M. Fisher and his Second would say Shew me their names or I will not grant there were any Let us ascend a little higher wee may prove it out of Eusebius 300 yeeres before that this Country was Christian Here Mr. Fisher would say Shew the names of those Christians or I will not beleeve it So it is plaine that these are two Questions Arist. Elench 2. c. 17. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 It is not well to require one answer to two questions This is as if a man should aske whether Iohn a Nox and Iohn a Stiles be at home when the one is forth the other at home and enjoyne the Respondent to answer to both at once yea or no by which answer he must speake an untruth because the questions are two really distinct This is a trick of Sophistry M. Fisher let me give you one instance more If I should aske M. Fisher whether
undoubted as that the sacrilegious hereticks themselves will not rebaptize those whom I have baptized Saint Augustine doth answer thus He doth not commit sacriledge who dares not rebaptize after that baptisme which is not thine but the baptisme of Christ The baptisme is Christs the rebaptizing is thine I correct in thee that which is thine and acknowledge that which is Christs for this is just that when wee reproove the evils of men we should approve whatsoever good things we find in them because they are Gods I say this is just that even in a sacrilegious person I should not violate that true Sacrament which I find in him neither that I should so correct a sacrilegious person as thereby to commit a sacrilegious sinne For they are evill though the baptisme amongst them bee good as the Iewes were evill though the law was good And even as the Iewes shall bee judged by that law which they though defiled could not defile So the Donatists they shall be judged by that baptisme which they could not deprave though themâ—elves be depraved Wee therefore thus deale with a Iew when he commeth unto us to bee made Christian wee doe not destroy in him the good that he hath from God but the evill that he hath of himselfe for we amend and destroy in him his infidelity whereby hee doth not beleeve that Christ is come already was borne hath suffered is risen againe and we instruct him in the faith of these things Wee also disswade him from those errors whereby he still sticketh to the shadow of the old Sacraments and we shew unto him that the time is come already wherein the Prophets foretold that these things were to bee taken away and changed But in that hee beleeveth one God is to bee worshipped which made Heaven and Earth that he doth abhorre all the Idolls and sacriledges of the Gentiles that hee doth expect the day of Iudgement that hee doth hope for eternall life we commend him approve him acknowledge him wishing him to beleeve as he had beleeved to hold as he had held So also when a Schismatick or an heretick doth come unto us to bee made a Catholick we disswade destroy and take from him his schisme and his heresie but as for the Sacraments of Christ if wee finde them in him and whatsoever other truth he holdeth farre be it from us that we should violate or minister againe that baptisme which was once received least while wee cure the vices of men wee condemne the saving graces of God and seeking to heale that which is not wounded we should wound a man there where he was whole Thus farre Saint Augustine These words of this Father make so plaine for our reformed Churches as that they need no application let the Reader understand Papist where he readeth Donatist and he shall find the Argument to follow We so left you as that we retained whatsoever you had from God and reject that which was from man we retained that which made you a Christian Church we rejected that which made you Popish and Antichristian In the former we communicate with you in the latter we disclaime So those whom I have and shall cite did communicate with you in some things but not in all for if they had communicated with you in all things they would not have reproved Aug. l. 2. cor op Par. c. 21. and disliked so many things Qui communicat consentit qui consentit corrumpitur If hee communicate hee doth consent if hee consent hee is corrupted To consent to evill is nothing else but to approve and commend that which is evill neither is there any man joyned in evill but he that doth commit evill or favour it act it or approve it In those good men which are displeased with those evills the Church doth continue hath continued and will continue for ever And as the graine unwinnowed is hid in the chaffe So the godly doe not easily appeare amongst a multitude of the wicked The people may be good where the Bishops are bad as the people were bad though Moses a good man was their Prince where Moses and Aaron were there also were sacrilegious murtherers Where Caiphas was and many like unto him there were also Zacharias and Simeon and others like unto them Saul and David were in the same Synagogue c. So that I doubt not but some may be found in all ages who did not communicate with your new doctrines superstitious worship tyrannicall discipline although they did communicate with you in the Scriptures and Apostles Creed as wee and all the famous Christian Churches in the world doe Know then that whereas you say that the Fathers and others alleadged by some of your men did communicate with the Roman Church unlesse you can say in all things you conclude nothing Syllogizari non est ex particulari for otherwise I might argue thus Some living creature is an Anabaptist Master Fisher is a living creature Ergo Master Fisher is an Anabaptist Because they communicate with you in some things thence to inferre you are the same in all things is fallacia à dicto secundum quid ad dictum simpliciter CHAP. IX Fisher AND as ancient Fathers have done before them condemned some or other Protestants Doctrine even of those 39 Articles of the English Protestant Church although they be more craftily composed then the Articles of other Protestant Churches Rogers I told you in my first Answer that it is no prejudice to our Faith if the same Authors doe differ from us in other opinions not concerning Faith as long as they maintaine our Faith and that the Church of Rome cannot produce Fathers in all Ages who doe not contradict the Councell of Trent in some Doctrines established in the said Councell These were my words in my first Answer to which you reply not at all to this purpose I also used that distinction of Discipline and Doctrine and distinguished between Doctrine Accessary and Fundamentall Adding also that matter of Faith consisteth not in Discipline but Doctrine and that Doctrine not Accessary but Fundamentall By which distinction I meane as I then expressed the same which Aquinas doth by res fidei Per Se Per accidens To this purpose I then distinguished Dogmata 1 Schola 2 Ecclesiae 3 Fidei Between 1 Opinions of Schoole 2 Doctrines of the Church 3 Articles of Faith To all which grounds of mine and more which I thâ—n layed you make no reply at all saving that some other grounds of mine you cavill at viz my Definition of a Protestant and my Distinction of Affirmation and Negation which I will justifie in their places Why would you say nothing to these grounds Master Fisher If they were true why would you not grant them If false why not deny them If ambiguous why not distinguish them I know no other Answer but one of these three wayes Concedendo negando vel distinguendo You will doe none of these to
my grounds and yet write in the top of your Booke for divers pages these words Master Rogers his most weake grounds viz. pag. 26 27. and in both these pages not one word spoken of my grounds Thus would you perswade your silly Proselytes who must reade no more then the Title of your Bookes That you have answered all when you have answered nothing Likewise pag. 22. you write over head Master Rogers his most weake Arguments whereas there is not in that page any one Argument of mine You can passe all those grounds of mine with a tricke of Rhetorick to take notice of that which you cannot answer unto and in stead of that must strike at a stander by namely our Booke of Articles saying That they be more craftily composed then the Articles of other Protestant Churches which I deny as most false neither need it any further Reply being an indefinite exception and as it seemeth spoken of purpose to draw mee from that matter proposed to goe a roving as your selfe have done with impertinent discourses Fisher I might therefore without more adoe conclude that Master Rogers hath not sufficiently answered Master Fishers Question Rogers With as little adoe as you can inferre abrogating a Law from that word which is the most proper for enacting the same Decret 1. part dist 4. c. 4. Lugduni Edit anno 1584. jussu Greg. 13. Statuimus id est abrogamus Wee doe enact it that is wee doe cancell it or as you say the Roman Church that is the Catholicke Church a part that is a whole a piece of man that is a whole man this is quidlibet ex quolibet from the staffe to the corner Fisher In regard hee hath neither named Protestants in all Ages neither hath hee sufficiently proved them hee named to be Protestants but by such false suppositions and bad definitions and such other shifts as any Arrian or Anabaptist or whatsoever other absurd Sectary may by the like defend the same persons to have beene of their Religion or Sect. Rogers The Question was whether the Protestant Church was visible in all ages This I prooved by divers Arguments to which you have made such answer as wee shall see anon To this I have not sufficiently answered say you in regard 1. I have not named Protestants in all ages As if there were no other means to decide the question but this no other proofe then induction or that my adversary proposing the question should limit me what kind of proofe I must use As if the King of France denouncing war against the King of England should send him word If you will warre against mee you must doe it by land not by sea and you must land in Picardie not in Normandie or Britaine or Poitou and you must chuse your place of battell in large Plaines and fight with horse not with foot and bring no Archers into the field or else confesse that you are no Warrier your Englishmen Scots and Britaines no Souldiers your proceedings not justifiable by the law of Nations Would Charles of France the Frentick have sent such a message such a challenge to our Henry the fift Yet Master Fisher saith If any Protestant will answer the Premises let him set downe names of Protestant Preachers in all Ages who taught the people Protestant Doctrine in everie severall Age or else confesse that there were no such before Luther or at least not in Ages to be found in History As if I should say If any Iesuit will answer mee let him shew mee the names of Iesuit Preachers in all Ages who taught the people Iesuiticall Doctrine in every severall Age or else confesse that there were no such before Ignatius Laiola We will deale with you as Edward the third with Phillip who presented himselfe before Paris saying Hee did call upon him to open fight in the view of France and before his great Theater of Paris He did not limit him to any one kind of fight or weapon hee left him to his choise so doe wee with you prove your selves to be the only Church and that all are excluded from salvation unlesse they hold Communion with and subjection to your Pope prove it by any testimonie of Scripture or demonstration from the Principles of Scripture or Reason frame your Argument as you thinke best for your owne advantage there are many places for Arguments viz. 24. wee exclude none but will admit them in their degrees some as necessary some as probable These are places of Art or Learning yet you will exclude us from all these and bring us ad loca inartificiata to testimonie And whereas those are Divina of God or Man vel Humana of God or Man You will have none but the later which can be but weak there being no Historian or Father but might be deceived and very few against whom you have not taken some exceptions Of all the formes of arguing a Syllogisme is that principall forme which alone hath constringencie and necessary illation and to which all other formes as being imperfect are reduced this we must not meddle with but bring exemplum or inductio or at the most an Enthymeme which is curtatus imperfectus Syllogismus all of them unsufficient parere scientiam to worke and produce true knowledge and yet we must use onely these This is as if the King of France should have sent to our King that when hee fought hee should not put on his best Armour nor use his best Sword Saint Augustine in this question excluded humane testimony yet you will have nothing else Non audiamus Haec dicit Ambrosius Augustinus c. Sed haec dicit Dominus Your Schoole also granteth that Scriptures are the principles in Theologie and all demonstrations must bee ex proprijs principijs out of proper principles Yet you will none of them onely names out of Histories you call for This was a kind of proofe which I did not approve at first but denyed the consequence of your 5th Proposition thus The summe of your fift Proposition is briefly this If the names of Protestant Pastors in all ages cannot be shewed then the Protestants are not the true Church This I deny to be of undoubted consequence for that argument negatively from authority is of no force In your demand you require the names of such as taught the Protestant doctrines whereas all your Propositions before were of faith as if all doctrines were points of faith I undertooke to shew a Church professing the same faith which the Protestants now doe in all ages and in all your Propositions you speake of faith here you speake of doctrines You know all doctrines are not articles of faith I have named Authors for 800. yeeres and in this my second Reply I will for the rest Was not my request more reasonable to call upon you to goe on so farre it being your owne way it being a course proposed by your selfe yet he that hath not gone one mile findeth fault
as if it were our Tenet and this must be our ground to inferre that Proposition this is your Petitio principii you beg a Principle which I will not grant you and so the building fals for want of a foundation Your Argument is thus Major If Protestants be the true visible Church of God then all sorts of men who in every Age had the foresaid infallible Faith have learned it by hearing Protestant Preachers whose names may yet be found in Histories as the names of those are found who in every former Age did teach and convert the people of severall Nations unto the Faith of Christ Minor But the Protestants are the true Church Ergo All sorts of men c. Not to meddle with the sequel of your Major which is false as I will shew when I come to answer your reasons for the same your Minor is most false wee alwaies did and ever will deny it wee are A true Church not The true Church a part not the whole c. Whatsoever is in your Proposition more then what I expressed for the summe thereof I granted not and therefore you have committed so many falsifications as there are words in your Proposition more then this If the Protestants be a true Church their Faith hath beene taught in all Ages by lawfull Pastors I never granted that all sorts of men in every Age did learne their Faith by hearing Protestant Preachers I never granted that their names or the names of all other Preachers were to be found in Histories yet you say I granted all this Is there no truth no modestie no meane no measure of falsifying Are you not ashamed to write that a man granted that which hee denied so fully so frequently Fisher Onely it may be hee will make a bogge at the word Histories as not finding it in his Copie not thinking it perhaps necessary that the names of Protestant Pastors who have taught the Protestant Faith in all Ages past be found in Histories Rogers What you meane by Bogge I know not unlesse it be a hollow myrie ground whereon a man can set no sure no firme footing but hee that trusting to a greene surface shall walke thereon sinketh in and sticketh in the myre such indeed are humane Histories in matters of Faith But why should Master Rogers make the bogge who proveth his Faith and his Church by other Arguments and not by these who out of Saint Augustine hath already protested against humane proofe in so divine a Question Aug. de veritate Ecclesia Quia nolo humanis documentis sed divinis oraculis sanctam Ecclesiam demonstrari I would not have the Church demonstrated by humane learning but by the oracle of God And with your Schoole That nothing but divine authoritie Th. Aquin. 1. quaest 1. Art 8. neither humane reason nor authoritie of holy Fathers are proper unto Divinitie or doe properly demonstrate But you that shun the proving of your Church of your Faith by other course and flye onely to Histories you make the bogge and such a bogge whereon you dare not walke without you fill it up with the rubbish of some other kind of Records or Monuments If you meane by making a bogge at the word Histories that I should be afraid to admit the same now because it was not in my former Copy you are deceived I feare it not let it come in though with a Parenthesis and let Histories extend to Records or Monuments so they be without exception I well receive them in their degree as a humane probable uncertaine unnecessitating proofe and yet such and so uncertaine proofe as it is if you can shew mee your now Faith out of Histories for the first foure hundred years which you your selves doe not accuse of errour falshood wilfull deceit juggling partialitie heresie I will be of your Faith of your Church Fisher Things past cannot be shewed but by Histories Rogers I have admitted your extension of Histories to Records and Monuments Fisher I doe not see why Master Rogers may not absolutely grant the fourth Proposition even as it was set downe by Master Fisher himselfe Rogers Within twelve lines before you say Neither doth Master Rogers make any bones to grant and here now you say I doe not see why Master Rogers may not absolutely grant it there you say I did grant it here you suppose I did not grant it You see no reason why I should not grant If it be evident it hath reason why it is evident and being your Proposition you must shew that reason and what your reasons are and how proposed let us see Fisher For if any visible Protestant Pastors were in all ages teaching especially any such Protestant Doctrines as now are taught they would have beene named and spoken of and written of as well as others are who have in Ages past taught all sorts of true and false Doctrines Rogers First you play the Sophister in changing your termes in your three first Propositions you speake of Faith here you leave out Faith and put in Doctrines as if they were the same whereas you know that the ancient Fathers and late Writers of your side and ours doe confesse that there are many Doctrines in the Church of different nature and necessitie but let us see your proofe Others who have in all Ages past taught all sorts of true and false Doctrines are named spoken of and written in Histories Ergo The Protestant Pastors in ages are named spoken of c. First tell mee whether your Antecedent be universall or particular if particular you conclude nothing you know the old rule Syllogizari non est ex particulari or if you will have it in the words of Aristotle the rule is this Arist lib. Prior 1. c. 19. If both Premises be indefinite or in part it can be no Syllogisme and such is yours namely an indefinite Proposition which must be resolved either into universall or particular If yours be universall thus All others who have in all Ages past taught all sorts of true and false Doctrines are named in Histories I denie it It is related by many Historians that there were Christian Churches in Britaine in the third fourth and fifth Age. But no man hath put downe all their names who were their Bishops or inferior Ministers if you can doe it shew it mee Againe the Arrians were so many in the fourth Age as that a Father saith Miratus est mundus se subitò factum esse Arrianum The world wondered how it came on a sudden to be of the Faith of Arrius And can you Master Fisher shew mee the names of these Arrian Teachers I could be copious in alleaging divers false Doctrines whose first Authors are not named are not knowne much lesse all that taught the same so that if your Proposition be universall it is false I denie your Antecedent If particular thus Some others who taught all sorts of true and false Doctrines are named in Histories
which is denounced against those who adde unto the Word of God And will you say that wee professe any Faith besides that which is contained in Scriptures This is your easie answering Master Fisher to denie that wee professe that which we doe professe in all our Bookes in all our Schooles in all our Pulpits in all our Discourses of this subject viz. What wee ought to believe You will as easily answer the other Argument let us see the Argument and your answer 2. Arg. A Signis thus The Faith which hath testimonies of Antiquitie Universalitie and consent of Fathers and other Writers in all ages had visible Professors in all ages But the Faith of Protestants hath these testimonies Ergo The Faith of Protestants had visible Professors in all Ages To this you answer by denying the Minor or second Proposition thus The Protestant Faith hath not testimonies of Antiquitie Universalitie and consent Ad partes Master Fisher which Article of the Apostles Creed doth want the testimonie of Antiquitie Universalitie and consent which of those Bookes received for Canonical of the Church of England and named of mee a little before want these testimonies of Antiquitie Universalitie and consent Is it Genesis or Exodus or any other Booke of Moses Is it the Psalmes or Proverbs or Histories that want this testimony Or is it Esay or Ieremie or Ezekiel or Daniel or any other of the Prophets Is it Matthew or any other of the Evangelists or Apostles name the man name the Church name the time if you cannot then say your easie answering is no answer 3. Arg. Ab Exemplis thus Names of such as professed the Protestants faith in all ages Christ and his Apostles St. Iohn Ignatius Polycarpus Iustinus Martyr Irenaeus Tertullian Clemens Alex Origen Cyprian Lactantius Athanasius Cyrill Hierosol Ambrozius Nyssenus Hieronimus Ruffinus Chrysostomus Augustinus Cyrillus Alex Theodoretus Socrates Sozomenus Fulgentius Evagrius Gregorius primus Beda Damascenus Alcuinus Thus having gone halfe way I conclude with this Argument The Protestant faith being that which is contained in Scriptures was received and taught by all the Orthodox Fathers But the Fathers above named be all Orthodox Ergo Now what answer doe you Master Fisher give to this Argument of mine not a word unlesse to denie the conclusion be to answer an Argument I hope you will not acknowledge your selfe to be so ignorant in Logicke you know the Rule Ex veris possit nil nisi vera sequi If my Premises be true my Argument in forme as you neither deny my Premises nor except against the forme of my Argument the conclusion must follow must be true for out of true Premises can follow no conclusion but what is true Arist De Sophist Elench c. 17 18 c. this is not easie answering but not answering Looke into Aristotle concerning the duty of a Respondent and the divers kinds of answering You not being able to answer this Argument say I must bring out some or other good Authors who doe clearly shew these before named to hold all or some principall points of Protestant Faith differing from the Catholicke Roman Faith I have proved what I undertooke and what is sufficient by such Arguments as you cannot answer you dare not examine but flye from them knowing their strength and your weaknesse But you will have me prove them by Authors is any humane authoritie of a private man better then reason And what Authors would you have will not their owne profession and their owne workes together with the esteeme and reputation of Orthodox Writers which they have had in all Ages serve the turne to shew what their Faith was doe any men know what they did believe or what they did professe better then themselves As for your Roman Catholicke Faith I have alreadie shewed how fond how vaine how simple a conjunction you make of them that no child ordinarily of seven yeares of age understanding the termes but will wonder with what face you can say That a part of a Church is a whole Church that a part of a Kingdome is a whole Kingdome that a part of mans Body is the whole Body You say also that I must prove out of good Authors that they doe not condemne any of the 39 Protestant Articles Here you not being able to answer as I thinke doe dissemble conceale and passe by what I did put downe in answer to this demand of yours viz. 1. It is no prejudice to our Faith if the same Authors doe differ from us in other opinions not concerning Faith as long as they maintaine our Faith 2. The Church of Rome cannot produce Fathers in all Ages who doe not contradict the Councell of Trent in some Doctrines established in the said Councell This you can conceale and passe over knowing that you are not able to performe it for your Councell of Trent I undertooke for matters of Faith not for secondarie Doctrines to produce Authors in all Ages professing our Faith though they might dissent from us in other Doctrines of an inferior nature not revealed in Scripture nor belonging to the foundation and Principles of Christian Religion As for the sufficiencie of my Arguments I have already made it good for any thing that you have yet spoken against them Let us now see what you say further against them CHAP. XVI Fisher WHo doth not also see that the same Arguments may be more strongly retorted against Protestants by onely altering the word Protestant into Catholick in regard our Catholick Doctrine may be and is ordinarily proved by plaine testimonies of Scriptures and Fathers A most bold falshood even by the confession of divers learned Protestants themselves Rogers All the proofe that this man will bring is for ought I can see or thus Who doth not see I doe not see If it be granted c. as I have observed before for if these Arguments might be retorted against the Protestants by changing of one word why did hee not performe the same I must doe it for him Major The Faith contained in the Scriptures had visible Professors in all Ages Minor But the Catholicke Faith is contained in the Scriptures Conclusion Ergo The Catholicke Faith had visible Professors in all Ages Here I have onely changed the word Protestant into Catholicke and what one word is here against Protestants who doe hold and professe no other Faith then what is contained in Scriptures as I have already shewed out of our sixt Article wee grant this whole Argument Major Minor and Conclusion which if you doe grant I will take the Minor and inferre a dangerous Conclusion against the Church of Rome thus The Catholicke Faith is contained in the Scriptures The Roman Faith is not contained in the Scriptures Ergo The Roman Faith is not the Catholicke Faith If you denie this Minor as it seemes by those words of yours before alleadged you will denie viz. Our Catholick Doctrine may be and is ordinarily proved by plaine testimonies
evills of this whole age ibidem The Queene Theodora did raise one Iohn a Minister of Ravennas whom she shamefully loved to be Pope Such was the unfortunate condition of the holy Church of Rome at that time that all things were governed and altered at the pleasure of a powerfull Whore Lando was no true Pope n. 12. d An. 915. n. 3. Iohn the 10 was an Intruder a Theefe a Ruffian e An. 925. n. 12. Quo turpior nullus cujus ingressus insamissimus exitus infandissimus dignus quem infamis foemina infami opere in Petri solium intrusisset The filthiest of all men who entred the Popedome shamefully and ended wickedly a fit man to be thrust by an infamous woman into the Chaire of Saint Peter Note the visibility of the Church of Rome O what was then the face of the holy Church of Rome was it not most foule and filthy when powerfull and base Whoores did rule all at Rome at whose pleasure Sees were changed Bishops were made and which will make a man tremble to heare and is more wicked then can be spoken their lovers falsly termed Popes thrust into Peters Chaire who had never been written in the Catalogue of Roman Bishops had it not been thereby to reckon the yeares and set downe the times For who can say that these men thrust in by Whoores without Law were lawfull Roman Bishops There was no man at all of the Cleargies Election or consent all Canons were silenced Decrees of Popes smoothered ancient Traditions and old Customes in chusing the Pope were banished the holy Ceremonies and former use were wholly extinguished Lust backed with worldly power mad Dormiebat tunc planè ut apparet sopore Christus and franticke with a desire of rule challenged all unto her selfe It appeareth plainely that Christ was then in a dead sleep in the ship when the strong winds thus blowing the ship it selfe was covered with the waves Ista non vtdere dissimulans I say hee was asleepe who dissembling as if hee did not see those things did suffer them so to be done and did not rise to vengeance And that which did seeme worse there were no Disciples who with their cries would awake their Master thus sleeping for they were all asleepe that they snored againe And what kind of Presbyter and Deacon Cardinals shall wee thinke were chosen by such Monsters seeing nothing is more firmly graffed in nature then this that like should beget like And who can doubt but that these did in all things consent unto those by whom they were chosen And who will not easily believe that they did imitate them and tread in their steps And who cannot understand that all these did wish that Christ had slept for ever Anno 912. n. 8. and should never wake nor rise in judgement to examine and punish their offences Thus farre Baronius But you will aske mee what needeth so much labour in shewing that wee had some bad times and some bad Popes for so you are used to extenuate all that wee alleadge in this kind You say that Christ himselfe having but twelve Apostles had one devill amongst them But what I have alleadged here doth shew that divers of those who supplied the place of Christ himselfe his Vicars generall upon earth as you terme them men to whom the Church is essentially joyned and must be obedient were devils monsters the dearlings of Whores some of them Bastard children of Popes by these notorious Whores and all their Priests Deacons and Cardinals like themselves so Atheisticall in their courses and desires as to wish that Christ might sleepe everlastingly and never rise to judgement nay the visible government of the Roman Church which you will have to be the onely Church was not so much in them as in these whores who made and unmade Bishops and Popes without any regard of Canons or Customes Ecclesiasticall and this wickednes was praevalent not for a few years or a few Popes but for this whole Age Toto hoc saeculo saith Baronius which is for 100 yeares Yet you Romanists will have all Christians in the world to behold and to be led by the visible Roman Church though the face and whatsoever was visible therein was most foule and filthy not onely in him who sate in the Chaire of Peter as you say but also in all his Consistorie in all his Deacons Priests and Cardinals But you will say These were no Popes then will I say that by your Doctrine you had no Church for the Pope is now a part of the definition of the Church with you and therefore no Pope no Church You know the Rule A parte definitionis negative sequitur argumentum Or will you say for so Baronius doth Shall any man shall all men in the world pin their soules upon the sleeves of such Monsters cleave unto them and be obedient unto them only because they sate in the Chaire though usurpingly And will you undertake to prove your Church to have had visible Professors in all Ages when in a whole Age there was nothing visible but what your selves are ashamed to looke backe upon You will have much adoe to find a Catalogue of names in this Age because you must not goe out of the Roman Church but wee acknowledge the Greeke Aethiopian Indian Armenian Syrian Churches have a larger scope and shall more easily passe through this difficultie seeing there was in this Age in Armenia one Nico magnus Baron An. 961. n. 4 8 10. Anno 976. n. 2. 980. n. 7 8 9. sanctus Orientis Praeco a great and holy Preacher of the East and the Church of Greece had in this Age two men famous for learning and holinesse Nilus and Nico as the same Baronius confesseth CHAP. XVIII Shewing a threefold Catalogue of Names from the Age wherein my former Catalogue did end unto Luthers time of such as professed and received the Faith and Sacraments of the reformed Church whom the Papists call Protestants MY first Catalogue Mr. Fisher shall be of Bishops Pastors and Writers of the Latine Church such as are acknowledged by your Church for Orthodox men of a right Faith Ab Anno 800 ad 900. Agobardus Episcopus Rem Rabanus Maurus Moganti Hincmarus Rem Amalarius Fortunatus Leo 3. Episcopus Rom. Ionas Aurelianensis Walafridus Strabo Theodulphus Aurelianensis Ab Anno 900 ad 1000. Baron An. 901. n. 10. Theodulphus Episcopus legatus Regis Franc. in Concilio Ovetensi Ermenegildus primus Archiepisc Ovetensis in Gallaecia Baron An. 900. n. 10. Fulco Remensis laudatissimus ille Archiepiscopus columen Francorum Baron An. 904. Grimbaldus Presbyter vir magnae sanctitatis in Anglia Iohannes Papa 9. qui tribus Conciliis à se celebratis summam sibi laudem comparavit velut alter Ieremias in cujus Epitaphio inter alia haec habentur Conciliis docuit ternis qui dogma salutis mox Et firmata fides quem
will grant him to be yours but of those Monkes and these I may say O quantum hic monachus monacho distabat ab illo How much doth your Parsons and other Monkes differ from Beda and those more ancient Friers or Monkes or religious Orders call them as you please Fisher The like may be said of divers others but at this time it may suffice to give this one example to shew that Mr. Rogers naming all those he named spake without Booke or without having at hand or looking into his bookes and that he might as well have named the Pope and Cardinalls and Bishops Priests Monkes and all other religious persons of the present Roman Church to be Protestants as he nameth the said ancient Fathers Rogers And so I will when I come to my Catalogue name Popes Cardinalls Bishops c. for confirmation of my faith whether it be for my Creed which are more principall and proper points or articles of faith or for all those bookes of Scripture which I beleeve or things therein revealed from God Because the testimony of an adversarie for an adversary is most strong and will take away your personall exceptions Thus Paul did cite a Heathen to perswade Heathens yea the inscription of an Altar dedicated to the unknowne God found amongst Heathen Idolls Thus the Fathers Augustine and others in the Primitive Church did cite the Iewes for confirmation of their doctrine and that they did not misaleadge the Prophets and writers of the old Testament Iudaei inimici nostri sunt de chartis inimici convincatur adsarius The Iewes are our enemies out of the bookes of our enemies wee convince our adversaries Augustine upon the 40th Psalme and often in other places Master Fisher or his Second would have exclaimed hereat saying what meanest thou Augustine wilt thou perswade mee that the Iewes are Christians if not why citest thou their bookes nay what meanest thou Paul to cite the Greeke Poets wouldst thou perswade me that they are Christians as if it must follow that they whose testimonie we cite in some things must be our friends in all All the faith of the Protestants is confirmed by the Papists all their explicite all their implicite faith all that belongs to our faith vel per se vel per accidens essentially or accidentally primarie or secundarily as an Article of faith or as an illustration of the same expressed in Scripture and yet the Protestants are no Papists the Papists are no Protestants because the Papists have a new Creed which Protestants deny and I call God to witnesse that I desire to die a thousand deaths rather then to approve it because I assure me it is false in all and in some things blasphemous The Papists have such exercise of Religion worshipping of Images praying to Saints which I abhorre as being Idolatry In discipline also they have such tenents of absolute supreme power over Bishops Kings Lawes oathes as is full of pride sedition usurpation and impiety Now here we differ here I am in the negative and so it doth belong to you to prove the affirmative It is a just law and your owne Master Fisher for these I need not produce testimony seeing I doe not avow maintaine beleeve any such Creed any such practise of Religion any such discipline But for my faith either explicite or implicite all that is revealed by God in his word I may bring my Adversaries to depose for me Paul said unto Agrippa a Iew no Christian Iuvenalis yea a wicked incestuous King if Roman Authors wrong him not incestae dedit hoc Agrippa sorori Yet to this bad man this unconverted Iew Paul saith O King Agrippa beleevest thou the Prophets I know thou beleevest them And may not I say Master Fisher beleeve you the Apostles Creed I know you doe beleeve it I have no other Articles of faith no other primarie propositions of faith againe for the totall object for the secondary propositions of faith contained in Scripture may not I aske you and say Master Fisher doe you beleeve the Bookes of Moses the Psalmes the Prophets and all those Bookes of the Iewish Canon as also all the new Testament I know you doe Master Fisher why then herein is my faith limitted whatsoever doctrine is plainely hence inferred or out of principles of nature I receive as doctrines or truths convincing my understanding but they are no part of my faith After these all doctrines and lawes Ecclesiasticall or civill in the Church or State wherein I live not contradicting the word of God or my conscience I receive with humility May I aske you Master Fisher againe whether the Apostles Creed and those bookes of old and new Testament received by our Church of England had not professors in all ages nay were not professed and beleeved of the Popes and Cardinalls of all ages I know you will not deny but they were so professed why then may not I vouch these Popes and Cardinalls for my selfe as I intend to doe when I come to my Catalogue CHAP. VII Fisher ANd I marvaile why having gone halfe the way as hee saith hee maketh a stop there and doth not with the like audacity goe on in naming other famous Roman Catholikes in every of the other ages Rogers Because Master Fisher offered in like proportion to name and defend Professors of Roman religion holding nothing contrary to the Doctrine defined in the Councell of Trent these were your words in the first Paper I received of yours I have gone halfe my journey you not a step in proportion you should have gone as farre as I did especially seeing you would have no other meanes of triall whereas I have and hold other and better meanes to prove my Faith and my Church yet to satisfie others to stop your mouth and to meet you at your owne weapon I undertooke this as a probable forreine humane uncertaine Argument yet such as maketh more for us then for you Fisher Namely such as Gualterus in Latine and the Author of the Appendix to the Antidote in English have set downe for members in the Roman Church Rogers If they have done it sufficiently and effectually it had beene the lesse labour for you Mr. Fisher to have transcribed them but wee may guesse what makes you neither take a Catalogue out of them nor make one of your owne after your example I might transmit you to Illiricus his Catalogus testium veritatis or The mysterie of Babylon vvritten by Sir Phillip Morney the learned Lord of Plessis who have performed this for the reformed Churches farre better then yours have done for your Church Yet when I come to the place where you have cited my Catalogue I will make it out but let mee aske you vvhy instead of naming such as professed the Romane Religion holding nothing contrary to the Doctrine defined in the Councell of Trent now you put members of the Romane Church as if it were the same a member of the
1. In India where Pantenus the Christian Phylosopher found Christians and the Gospel of Saint Matthew in Hebrew Lib. 5. c. 9. Anno 180. left unto them by Bartholomew who preached the Word in those parts Irenaeus the learned Bishop of Lions in France died about these times and had heard Polycarpus the Disciple of Saint Iohn as hee himselfe confesseth hee writeth thus The Church dispersed through the universall world into the ends of the earth received from the Apostles Lib. 1. c. 2. and their Disciples that Faith which is in one God the Father Almightie c. as hee there setteth it downe more at large cap. 3. hee saith This Faith the Church dispersed through the world doth constantly keepe as if they dwelt in one house as if they had but one soule one heart one mouth neither doe the Churches in Germany believe otherwise nor the Iberians nor the Celtes nor the Churches of Egypt nor those in the East nor those of Lybia nor those which are placed in the middle of the world Dionysius Bishop of Alexandria about the yeare 234 Euseb l. 7. c. 4. writing to Stephen Bishop of Rome saith Scias nunc frater c. Know now Brother that all the Easterne and those Churches which are more remote are at unitie Where he names the Bishops of Antioch Caesarea and Ierusalem of Tyre of Laodicea all Syria Arabia Mesopotamia Pontus Bythinia Euseb de vita Constantini l. 3. c. 7. The Ministers of God came together to the Councell of Nice out of Syria Cilicia Phaenicia Arabia Pabestina Egypt Thebais Africa Mesopotamia Persia Scythia Pontus Galatia Pamphilia Cappadocia Asia and Phrygia thither came the Thracians Macedonians Achaians Epirots and they whose dwellings were far more remote Much could I cite to the same purpose out of Socrates Theodoret Sozomen and other Ecclesiasticall Historians much out of the Fathers much out of the late Travellers but I will make choise of two or three which shew the multitude of Christians over the world It is too true that about seven hundred yeares after the comming of our Saviour in the flesh Mahomet gained much from the Christians the Turkes more about foure hundred yeares after that and the Tartars I may say almost as much as both the last of these about foure hundred yeares past Saving one mentioned by Mathew Paris subduing the mighty Christian King of Teuduc became Mahometans and their Successors ever since yet so as Christians are found in all their dominions to this day yea and within these foure hundred yeares and lesse Burchardus hath recorded that in the hither halfe of Asia from Tanais Westward to Imaus Eastward and from thence to the South of Asia there were thirty Christians for one Mahometan I will end this with an Historian and Traveller of your owne Andrew Thevet Cosmographer to the French King in his Cosmographie I assure you saith he that I found at Ierusalem in the holy Passion weeke more then foure thousand Christians of severall remote Nations my selfe being sole with an Almaine of the Roman Church And anon after hee saith All those Nations doe acknowledge neither Pope nor Cardinall King nor Emperour of ours And againe None can shew that the Abyssines Armenians Maronits Georgians of Persia Nestorians Iacobites Syrians Iavans which be of the Ilands next the Orientall India Burians Darians Cephalians the men of Quinsay most remote of all the Orientall India of all which Nations I saw in Ierusalem in the holy Passion weeke ever learned from us of the Latine Church their Sacred Mysteries or Liturgie which they affirme themselves to have received from the Apostles Thus far Thevet Yet by your definition all these so many Christians of severall remote nations are damned to Hell for they do not acknowledge the Pope nor did for one thousand five hundred yeares And must all the Christians for one thousand five hundred yeares of so many severall Nations be damned for not acknowledging the Pope The devils in Hell would triumph if this were true The ten persecutions in the Primitive Church and the great inundation of Mahometisme lenarged far and wide by the conquest of Sarazens Turkes and Tartars did never cut so many soules from Christ drive so many out of the Christian Church and consequently damne them to Hell as this definition hath done if it were true I have read in one of your owne Writers Matthew Paris That a Priest deceased Anno 1072. about thirty dayes after appearing to another Priest his former acquaintance bade him give over his function and repent if he would be saved and opening his hand shewed him a writing wherein the Devill and all the societie of Hell did give thankes to the whole Order of the Clergie because that giving themselves wholly to pleasure and neglecting to preach they suffered more soules to come to Hell then had beene seene in any Age before All the service that the Romish Clergie of those times did doe to the Devill in bringing infinite numbers of soules to Hell was nothing to what this Iesuiticall definition and Doctrine doth doe If this definition be true the judiciall proceeding in the later day must be not as our Saviour hath laid downe in the 25. of Saint Matthew Come yee blessed of my Father Ver. 34 35 36. inherit the Kingdome prepared for you from the foundation of the world For I was an hungred and yee gave mee meat I was thirsty and ye gave mee drinke I was a stranger and yee tooke mee in naked and yee clothed mee I was sicke and yee visited mee I was in prison and ye came unto mee But thus it must be if this definition be true Come yee blessed who have submitted your selves unto my Vicar generall who have been obedient unto my Bishop of Rome acknowledging him to have authoritie over all Bishops that hee is above Councels above Kings Valenza Tom. 3.1 qu. §. 6. Bellarm. l. 4 de Pont. Rom. c. 4 5. above Emperours Lord of all the world that in him is invested all the authoritie of the universall Church that all the Church without him may erre that he doing the office of a Pastor or intending to teach the Church cannot erre Our Saviour said Not every one that saith unto mee Lord Lord shall enter into the Kingdome of Heaven but hee that doth the will of my Father but now the case is altered Every one that saith Lord Lord to the Bishop of Rome and none but hee alone is in the Church out of which there is no salvation Our Saviour said Hee that doth the will of my Father but these say Hee that doth the will of God and the Church shall be saved and by the Church they understand the Pope Must all those remote Nations amongst whom many millions never heard of the Bishop of Rome and those who are oppressed under the Moores Turkes and Tartars for the Faith of Christ must they I say be examined in the last day in
if there cannot as there cannot be found in Histories names of Protestant Preachers who in all ages did teach all sorts of faithfull people and who converted severall Nations unto the Christian faith Hence followeth I say that Protestants are not the true visible Church of Christ neither are their Preachers lawfully sent or sufficiently authorised to teach nor people securely warranted to learne of them that one infallible faith without which none can please God nor if they so live and die be saved Rogers Here say you is a true Copy of Master Fishers five Propositions as if my Copy were not true My Answer was printed without my knowledge yet the Propositions of Mr. Fisher printed are agreeing unto these Copies which I received and there is nothing more in this your second Edition then was in those alleadged by me saving these few words in Histories as the names of those are found which make no sentence nor fill up one poore little line and if they strengthen your cause any thing the more let them come in and doe you urge them Rogers in his 1. Answer The 3. first Propositions I admit 1. That there is one faith 2. That the ordinary propagation of this faith is by Pastors lawfully called 3. That there have beene and must be in all ages such Pastors so called 4. I would gladly know what they meane by those words if the Protestants be the true visible Church whether so as if we alone who are called Protestants were of the Church and no others we have such enclosing of Commons to the Romanists we chalenge it not wee are a true Church not the true Church we are a part not the whole wee include our selves we exclude not others whether Graecians Armenians Aethiopians Spaniards or Italians c. So they deny no fundamentall parts of the faith either directly or by consequence An examination of Master Rogers answer to the five Propositions aforesaid I find first that he granted the first three without any exception which I desire may bee diligently noted and well pondered for out of these three grounds to wit First that there is one and but one Faith necessary to salvation And secondly that this faith according to the ordinary course of Gods providence cannot be had otherwise then by hearing the preaching or teaching of lawfully sent Pastors And thirdly that this faith hath beene in all ages past as appeareth by Histories taught by Pastors of the true visible Church who onely are lawfully sent Out of these 3. grounds I say evidently followeth that which is Master Fishers fourth Proposition to wit If Protestant faith bee the true faith and their Church the true Church or as Master Rogers had rather say A true Church of Christ then their Protestant faith differing from the Roman faith hath beene taught in all ages by lawfully sent visible Protestant Pastors whose names may be found in Histories as names of others are found who did teach the true faith of Christ in all ages This to follow out of the aforesaid three grounds is as I said most evident Nego it is false neither doth Master Rogers make any bones to grant save onely that it may be hee will make a bogge at the word Histories as not finding it in his Copie nor thinking it perhaps necessary that the names of Protestant Pastors who taught the Protestant faith in all ages past be found in Histories but understanding the word Histories as Master Fisher understood it to wit for some or other kind of Record or Monument as Doct. White also understood it when he said Things past cannot be shewed but by Histories I doe not see why Mr. Rogers may not absolutely graunt the fourth Proposition even as it was set downe by Master Fisher himselfe for if any visible Protestant Pastors were in all ages teaching especially any such Protestant doctrines as now are taught they would have beene named and spoken of Rogers all or some and written of aswell as others are who have in all ages past taught all sorts of true and false doctrines in regard there cannot be assigned any reason either of the part of Gods providence or humane diligence why the name of others even false teachers in all ages should be set downe and preserved in Histories yet extant rather then the names of such as Protestants deeme to be the onely true Teachers of pure doctrine for doubtlesse both God who is zealous of his honour and carefull to honour and preserve the memory of them that would honour him would for his honours sake have procured honourable memory of such as did by teaching truth honour him and men carefull of their soules health which they cannot attaine according to the ordinary course but by hearing such Pastors onely who have lawfull succession from Christs Apostles have reason diligently to looke that memory be preserved of such Pastors and of pure divine truth taught by them then of others who taught any other false and not pure doctrine Certaine therefore it is that the names or some thing equivalent to names and the doctrines of true Pastors who did in all ages past teach true divine doctrine may be found in Histories as well as the names and doctrines of others are found who did teach any other doctrine And therefore if Protestants have had any Pastors teaching true doctrines in all ages doubtlesse their names would be extant in Histories yet extant which being presupposed and granted as Master Rogers seemeth to grant by granting Master Fishers 4th Proposition I doe not see how Master Rogers can denie Master Fishers first Proposition for it being supposed that the Protestant Preachers were their names would be found in Histories as Master Fishers fourth Proposition granteth by Master Rogers supposed it may bee well inferred that if no such mens names be found in Histories then no such men were in all ages nor consequently are Protestants the true Church of Christ for it hath had such in all ages I doe not therefore see I say how Mr. Rogers can deny Mr. Fisher his first Proposition supposing he grant as he granteth his fourth Proposition for although absolutely speaking an Argument drawne from negative authority be as Master Rogers averreth of it selfe of no force and so Protestants Arguments which are usually made against us out of negative authority Rogers Here Master Fisher I must request you and the Reader whosoever he be to looke backe upon the title of the two last pages which is Master Rogers his most weake grounds then reade diligently all that is there written and see if there bee any mention any one sentence any one word of any of my grounds All that is here spoken is in defence of Master Fishers owne grounds viz. of his 4. and 5th Proposition which in that sense that you enforc'd them are most weake and more weakly maintained and therefore the title should have beene thus Master Fisher his most weake grounds That they are most weake
Ergo I dâ—â—ie your Argument and as well I might say Some men have no Noses Master Fisher is some man Ergo As you inferre any conclusion out of your particular Antecedent Fisher In regard there cannot be assigned any reason either of the part of Gods providence or humane diligence why the names of others even false Teachers in all Ages should be set downe and preserved in Histories yet extant rather then the names of such as Protestants deeme to be the onely true Teachers of pure Doctrine Rogers Yet you are in your indefinite saying others even false Teachers you will neither adde all nor some to make it universall thus The providence of God and diligence of man hath preserved the names of all false Teachers in Histories For then the falshood would be cleare neither have you made it particular thus The providence of God and diligence of men have preserved the names of some false Teachers Ergo of Protestant Teachers for then it would appeare that this were a Non sequitur that particulars can inferre no conclusion Fisher For doubtlesse both God who is zealous of his honour and carefull to honour and preserve the memorie of them that would honour him would for his honour sake have procured honourable memorie of such as did by teaching truth honour him Rogers Ergo Their names must be found in Histories Negatur Argumentum Is this the honour Is this the glorie that God hath provided for his children to be recorded by man It is written as you have cited in your Margin 1 Reg. 2.30 Whosoever shall glorifie mee I will glorifie him and whosoever shall contemne mee shall be ignoble Who ever expounded this place of Scripture to be meant of humane testimonies of being recorded in humane Histories and not of that honour which is usually termed the state of glorie The other place cited in your Margin is The just shall be had in everlasting remembrance Ergo Psal 111.7 Their names shall be recorded in humane Histories Who ever made such collections God hath promised eternall glorie unto his servants and you will turne it to temporall for what is humane testimonie and humane glorie but temporall which shall end either before or at least with time O presumptuous blindnesse of man to accuse the providence of God as defective if it record not all their names in humane Historie whose names are written in the Booke of Life I am loath to spend many words in answering such poore objections but the impietie prophanenesse Atheisme that is implied in this Argument opens my mouth to speak somewhat more Whereas you say If God will glorifie his servants hee must record them in humane Histories this must imply that God hath no other way to glorifie his servants as that there were no resurrection of the flesh no immortalitie of the soule no Book of Life no Heaven no happinesse in another world Fisher And men carefull of their soules health which they cannot attaine according to the ordinary course but by hearing such Pastors onely who have had lawfull succession from Christs Apostles have more reason diligently to looke that memorie be preserved of such Pastors and of pure divine Truth taught by them then of others who taught any other false and not pure Doctrine Rogers Here are two trickes of a Sophister the one to obscure a Proposition with a multitude of needlesse and impertinent words for seeing hee was to prove this plaine and short Proposition That the names of Pastors teaching divine Truth are to be found in Histories and that the Medium whereby hee would prove this hee tooke from the diligence and dutie of Godly men what needs all those additions which come in by Parenthesis viz. which they cannot attaine according to the ordinarie course but by hearing such Pastors onely who have had lawfull succession from Christs Apostles The second tricke of a Sophister is to speake indefinitely and so making it doubtfull whether your Proposition be universall or particular not joyning either all or some unto others as I have observed before Your Argument which I must frame for you or I am like to have none is this Men carefull of their soules health have reason to preserve the memorie of their Pastors Ergo They did so Or to make it more large thus Men carefull of their soules health have more reason diligently to looke that memory be preserved of such Pastors and of pure divine Truth taught by them then of others who have taught any other false and not pure Doctrine But they continued the memorie of the false Teachers Ergo They continued the memorie of the true Teachers First you conclude not what you were to prove viz. That the names of all true Teachers in all ages are to bee found in Histories Secondly for your minor if it be universall it is false if it be particular it doth not inferre it doth prove nothing as I have already shewed more fully Thirdly your Argument hath foure termes in the major your medium is the duty of men what they ought to doe In the minor you speake of what they did and suppose a falsehood viz. that men carefull of their soules health have recorded the names of all false Teachers and so you would inferre they did record the names of all true Teachers and thus to prove the act from the duty in weake sinfull man is no proofe is like the rest an egregious non sequitur And as well I might argue thus Master Fisher ought to have replied punctually in order and alleadging my words in my answer to him ergo he did it Or thus Eve should have abstained from the forbidden fruit ergo she did abstaine from it Or thus Adam had more reason to hearken unto God forbidding him to eate of the Tree of Knowledge of good and evill then to his wife perswading him to eate thereof ergo he did not hearken unto his wife Or thus Iudas had more reason to defend his Master then to betray him ergo he did not betray him Or thus Peter had more reason to confesse his Master then to deny him ergo Peter did not deny his Master If this kind of arguing were good it were happy for us all in the day of Iudgement when the Idolater should say I had more reason to worship God then to worship Idols ergo I did not worship Idols The murtherer would say I had more reason to save then to kill ergo I did not kill The drunkard would say I had more reason to be sober then to be drunke ergo I was not drunke And so might all other sinners plead if this argument were good Fisher Certaine therefore it is that the names or some thing equivalent to names and the doctrines of true Pastors who did in all ages past teach true divine doctrine may be found in Histories as well as the names and doctrines of others are found who did teach any other doctrine Rogers I have shewed it to be
cast a dart or shoot an Arrow This is Pugna levis bellumque fugax turmaeque vagantes Lucan de Parthis Et melior cessisse loco quam pellere miles Illica tela dolis nec Martem comminus unquam Ausa pati virtus sed longe tendere nervos Et quò ferre velint permittere vulnera ventis Light armed men who flying fight and never firmly stand Better in skipping up and downe then fighting hand to hand Their poisned darts they send and shoot but will not closely fight Wounds which they dare not bring themselves they send by winged flight Had the Argument been so easily answered you would not have answered it by a manifest untruth as you have done by saying That the Protestants Faith is not contained in Scriptures whereas it is one of the greatest Controversies betweene you and us whether the Scriptures be the onely rule of Faith which wee affirme and you denie it is the sixth Article in the Doctrine of our Church of England the Title is thus Of the sufficiencie of holy Scripture for salvation The Article it selfe is this Holy Scripture containeth all things necessarie for salvation so that whatsoever is not read therein nor may be proved thereby is not to be required of any man that it should be believed as an Article of the Faith or to be thought requisite and necessarie to salvation c. To this Article of ours agreeth the Helvetian Bohemian French Belgian Saxonian Suevian confessions Reade the Bookes of Luther Brentius Melancthon Chemnitius Calvin Zanchie Whittaker and you shall find that they all doe professe this and write at large in defence thereof We proclaime it in our Pulpits we maintaine it in our Schooles wee will shed our blood rather then admit any Articles of Faith which are not contained in the Scriptures Is it not strange you should have the face to denie that wee professe that which is printed in the Doctrine of our Church preached in our Pulpits every day maintained in our Schooles defended by all proclaimed to the world What doth Chemnitius maintaine in the first part of his Examen Concilii Tridentini but this This the first Controversie which hee there handleth against you What doth Calvin labour in his first Booke of Institutions cap. 6 7 8 9. in his third Booke and second Chapter where hee speaketh of the nature of Faith but this And it is not a little that he writeth to this purpose in his fourth Booke and tenth Chapter Hath not Zanchie written a whole Booke to this purpose Against whom doth Bellarmine write his third and fourth Booke de verbo Dei which tend onely to this purpose to denie the fulnesse of Scripture and to extend matters of Faith to unwritten Traditions but against the Protestants There hee putteth Luther and Brentius in the forefront of his Adversaries Doth not Valenza in his third Tome upon Thomas disputatione 1a. quaest 3ª 4ª 5ª 6ª 7ª octava maintaine the same Tenet against the same men This is the maine Question betweene your Jesuited Schoolmen and us when they write de objecto fidei what those things are which are to be believed with a religious assent of divine Faith Whether onely those things which are contained in Scriptures as the Protestants doe professe or also unwritten Traditions as the Church of Rome doth professe let us then view the Argument and see how you answer it 1. Arg. First a Causis thus The Faith contained in the Scriptures hath had visible Professors in all Ages But the Protestant Faith is contained in the Scriptures Ergo The Protestant Faith had visible Professors in all Ages M. Fisher denieth the Minor or second Proposition which I have proved in the last Page before out of the publike Doctrine of our Church and chiefest Writers of our side and theirs neither can hee be ignorant of the same but the Argument troubles him and something hee must say Neither is hee ignorant that in this Controversie of the visible Church betweene them and us It is not the inward habit but the outward profession of Faith which maketh a visible Church Ecclesia constat professione ejusdē fidei Bellarm. Tom 2. l. 3. c. 2 3 4. etc. cōmunicatione eorundem Sacramentorum The Church doth consist in professing the same Faith and cōmunicating the same Sacraments Cap. 9. And againe the same Author cap. 10. writeth thus I answer Formam Ecclesiae non esse fidem internam nisi Ecclesiam invisibilem habere velimus sed externam id est fidei confessionem c. The forme or essence of the Church is not the inward Faith but the outward profession of Faith L. 19 c. 11. which Saint Augustine declareth most plainly against Faustus the Manichee and experience doth testifie the same for they are admitted into the Church who professe the Faith Thus farre Bellarmine So then by Faith in this Argument of the visible Church is alwayes understood the outward profession of Faith whereas the Protestants doe professe that they believe nothing but what is contained in the Scriptures this Respondent hath the face to say wee doe not professe it If but one man should come into the face of a congregation and say I doe professe and believe onely those things which are contained in Scriptures were not hee very impudent and had a face harder then brasse who would say to this man Thou dost not professe that Faith which is contained in Scriptures That Argument is not easily answered which driveth the Respondent to such miserable shifts Wee professe no Articles of Faith but those which are contained in the Apostles Creed which of these Articles are not contained in Scriptures Ad Partes Master Fisher this is the law of answering to a Proposition that hath many members wee professe that with a religious divine Faith wee receive nothing but what is contained in the five books of Moses or Ioshua Iudges Ruth the two books of Samuel the two books of Kings the two books of Chronicles the two books of Esdras Esther the booke of Iob or the Psalmes or Proverbs or Ecclesiastes or the Canticles or the foure greater or twelve lesser Prophets Or in the foure Evangelists or in the Acts of the Apostles or the Revelation and Epistles of Saint Iohn or the Epistles of Saint Paul Saint Iames Saint Peter Saint Iude which of these bookes is not Scripture Thus wee professe our Faith doe not wee every where professe with Saint Augustine De Doct. Christiana l. 2. c. 9. and against you That all things concerning Faith and life necessarily to be knowne and believed are plainly set downe in Scripture With Saint Basil Serm. de fidei confess Lib. cont Hermogen and against you That it is pride and infidelity to adde unto the Scriptures With Tertullian against you and Hermogenes Scriptum esse doceat Hermogenis officina Si non Scriptum timeat vae illud c. Shew where it is written or else feare that woe
of Scriptures and Fathers even by confession of learned Protestants themselves I will prove it yet first let me tell you that here you deliver a most grosse untruth if by Catholick you meane Roman to say that divers learned Protestants doe confesse that your Roman doctrine may be and is ordinarily proved by plaine testimonies of Scriptures and Fathers This I say is a most manifest and grosse untruth seeing no learned Writers of our side doe say so much Why doth Bellarmine make Scripture a part of the Rule not the whole Rule but to bring in unwritten Traditions writing a whole Booke de verbo Dei non scripto of the unwritten Word of God And Valenza in his fourth Tome upon Thomas Aquinas is very full in seeking to prove the same in his first disputation de objecto fidei delivering these Propositions viz. That the authoritie to judge in matters of Faith is not contained onely in Scripture Disputatione prima puncto septimo quaestione tertia Sect. 4. And againe Sect. 5. The Scripture alone is not the Judge of Faith As also Sect. 6 7 8 9 10 11. As also in the eight question Sect. 44. in his Tract de Traditionibus Apostolicis Neither doe I remember that ever I read any of your late Writers but hold as these men did so that in the opinion of these men you must be but halfe a Papist because you receive but halfe that Rule of Faith which the Church of Rome receiveth for not to trouble the Reader with the opinions of private men it is the first Doctrine the first Decree of your Councell of Trent the puritie of the Gospell Fontem omnis salutaris veritatis Sess 4. morum disciplinae contineri in libris scriptis sine scripto Traditionibus The fountaine of all saving Truth and the guide of life is contained in the written Bookes and unwritten Traditions Have you any other Faith then the Councell of Trent This is to be a Protestant in the maine point in that which is the Rule of all other points of Faith and life necessary for all men to know Is this your easie answering Master Fisher to grant your Adversarie that which hee most desireth to dissent from your Councell of Trent would you but adde this to what you have written which followes necessarily I will not subscribe to Bellarmine I will not be led by Valenza herein I will leave the Councell of Trent I will hold no Doctrine which is not proved by plaine testimonie of Scripture without flying unto unwritten Traditions I would rejoyce to see you a Protestant in the maine ground-worke and Principle of all our Religion hoping that if you continue in this mind you will shortly agree in the rest Now let us see how the second Argument may be retorted against the Protestants by onely changing the word Protestant into Catholicke 2. Arg. A Signis The Faith which hath testimonies of Antiquitie Vniversalitie and consent of Fathers and other Writers in all Ages had visible Professors in all Ages But the Faith of Catholickes had these testimonies Ergo The Faith of Catholickes had visible Professors in all Ages What one word is here against Protestants wee grant both the Premises and Conclusion so doe not you For they be your owne words within a few lines viz. That some points were at first not held necessarie to be believed even by Orthodox Fathers which after by examination and definition of the Church in Generall Councels were made so necessarie to be believed as that whosoever did not believe them were accounted not Orthodox but Haereticks These are your owne words from whence it doth follow that many necessarie points were denied in precedent Ages by Orthodox Fathers and thence it must follow againe that they wanted the testimonie of all Ages being denied in some Ages by the Orthodox Fathers Such testimonies the Articles of your Roman Faith may have yet Orthodox Fathers denie them and therefore to frame the Arguments againe not according to your words which I have done already by changing Protestant into Catholicke but into Roman for that I thinke you understand by Catholicke Let it be thus The Faith contained in the Scriptures had visible Professors in all Ages But the Roman Faith is contained in the Scriptures Ergo The Roman Faith had visible Professors in all Ages Would to God your Minor were true I would be glad to meet with you in the Conclusion But I have already shewed out of your owne Writers and Councell of Trent that you hold the contrary and your new Creed being examined by Scripture will finde more contradiction there then proofe unwritten traditions equalled to the word of God Seven Sacraments improperly so called halfe Communion Transubstantiation Invocation of Saints worshipping of Images have neither testimony of Scriptures nor Fathers this you know well enough and therefore you could passe over a great deale of my Reply without any mention of what I had replied My words were these Having gone thus farre at this time I undertake for the rest and doe require the like from the Romanists viz. That they would shew me the names of such as taught the now faith of the Church of Rome in all ages and let them set me downe the names as I have done And for instances in points of Roman faith in all ages I require these men to shew me the names of those who in the first second third Centurie of yeares did preach or professe unwritten Traditions to be the rule of faith Secondly that the vulgar Latine translation is authenticall Thirdly that there are seven Sacraments improperly so called and no more Fourthly that the bookes of Machabees are Canonicall Fiftly Transubstantiation Sixtly Invocation of Saints Seventhly worshipping of Images c. This rule of shewing the names of such as professed the faith in all ages is proposed by them which though it be no necessary consequence of faith yet it bindeth them that propose it to make it good in particular Out of their owne Position thus I argue First Argument That is a true Church whose faith hath had visible professors in all ages whose names may be shewed out of good Authors to be such The Romish faith had not such visible professors in all ages Ergo The Roman is not a true Church Second Argument The true faith hath the testimonies of Vniversalitie Antiquitie and Consent But the Romish faith as farre as they differ from the Protestants faith which they doe in all the points above alledged hath not testimonies of Vniversalitie Antiquitie and Consent Ergo The Romish faith in those points wherein they differ from the Protestants faith is not a true faith Let the Romanists answer these two Arguments in those particular points above written and I will be of their Church Thus much in my former answer to which you have made no replie at all you have neither given any instance which point of my faith is not contained in Scriptures or wanteth
Ferrara made by Marcus Bishop of Ephesus Sess 5. in a grave and learned speech recorded by your owne Surius in the fourth Tome of Councels imprinted at Colonia Agrippina Anno 1567. Definitiones Decreta aliarum omnium Synodorum recitanda nobis videntur ut haec nostra Synodus non solum ab illis non discrepare verumetiam ipsas in omnibus imitari velle videatur quoniam nos firmiter credimus majores nostros nil prorsus silentio praeterjiffe quod ad nostrum fidei Symbolum spectet Marcus Ephesinus in Generali 8. Synodo Sess 3. apud Surium Tom. 3. Pag. 375. Porro autem quoniam de Divinis primi ac alterius Concilii dogmatibus nil aliud reperitur nisi duae tantem fidei nostrae expositiones hoc est duo Symbola quae tamen pro uno a caeteris Conciliis suscepta fuerant idcirco à recitandis tertii Concilii gestis auspicandum nobis censemus vobis probare promittimus Christianorum omnium unam esse Catholicam fidem ad quam accessionem aliquem fieri aut quicquam ab ea non liceat auferri In primis ergo Nicenum Symbolum à trecentis decem octo Patribus Niceae celebratum recitetur Legatur etiam ejusdem Concilii definitio ut idem Nicenum Symbolum immutabile ac immobile permaneret neminique fas esset aliam fidem proferre Sess 5. Quartum Concilium viz. Ephesinum definit atque determinat ut aliam fidem conscribere aut componere aut sentire aut docere liceat nemini Concilium 5. viz. Constantinopol idem definit qui aliud Symbolum docuissent anathemati subjiciunt Sic etiam 6. Concilium seu Trullanum priora Concilia dictum Symbolum amplectitur obsignat Sic etiam 7. ac ultimum generale Concilium Hactenus Marcus Ephes ibidem Ab anno 800. ad 900. 1. Theodotus Melissenus 2. Iohannes Sixtus 3. Photius All these three were Patriarchs of Constantinople as is acknowledged by Baronius an 835. n. 25. All zealous adversaries to your worshipping of Images for which Baronius there calleth the first Haereticum Iconoclastam an haereticall Image-breaker The second Haeresis promulgatorem acerrimum The third namely Photius held a Councell at Constantinople planè numerosum admodum Concilium it was a very full Councell in so much as Michael the Emperour gloried that it equalled the number of the Fathers of the great Nicen Councell teste Baron an 861. n. 1. This was accounted a Generall Councell by Photius and by Theodorus Balsamon Comenting upon it Sic ait Baron ibid. n. eodem In this Councell was condemned the worshipping of Images Ab anno 900. ad 1000. Nilus Calaber Habuit hoc saeculo Graeca Ecclesia duos doctrina sanctitate illustres Nilum Calabrum Niconem Lacedemon Baron an 900. n. 8. Nico. Lacedemon Hic non à Graecis solum sed etiam à Latinis inter Sanctos est relatus Baron an 961. Ab anno 1000. ad 1100. Simeon Armenus Vir Sanctus verae fidei Professor Baro. an 1016. n. 7. 8. Theophilactus Episcopus Bulgarorum He in his writings imitateth Saint Chrysostome but he is a Schismaticke saith Bellar. de scriptoribus Ecclesiasticis Ab anno 1100. ad an 1200. Euthimius Zigabenus who wrote against all Haeresies and upon the 4. Evangel Bellarm. de Scriptoribus Ecclesiae Theodorus Balsamon Who commented upon Photius his Nicene Canon and divers Councels He was an enemie to the Church of Rome saith Bellarm. Ab Anno 1200. ad 1300. Arsenius Patriarcha Constantin A man for vertue and the service of God not farre short of the highest perfection ut Nicephorus Gregor lib. 3. p. 31. edit Basiliensis an 1562. cum Caesarea Majest privilegiis Gregorius Patriarcha Idem Gregor l. 6 pag. 80. Ioannes Glices Patriarch also of Constantin a most learned grave wise man above all men Nicephorus Gregoras lib. 8. pag. 123. 132. Ab Anno 1300. ad 1400. Catechuzenus Pachimaerus Nicephorus Gregoras These three were Fathers of the 14 age saith Bzonius in the end of that age Tom. 13. in his Supplement of Baron his Ecclesiasticall History an 1299. They did teach contrary to the doctrine of the Haereticks so Baronius calleth us but I may truly say that the first and last of the three teach contrary to their faith and so the other professed or he could not be of the Greeke Church who deny the Popes primacie of power deny Purgatory Communicate in both kinds For Catechuzenus in the election of Iohn Bishop of Constantinople doth say that all Bishops of greater or lesser Cities receive equall grace Baronius addeth his owne Glosse saying True equall grace of Order not of Iurisdiction Nicephorus in his 10 booke disputeth at large against the Latine Church à pag. 230 ad finem ejusdem libri To. 6. Bibl. Sanct. pag. 99. Ep. ad lect To these I may adde Cabasilas whom together with Balsamon Genebrard calleth two famous Greeke Fathers for which words he is blamed by M. De la Bigne who calleth the same men Schismaticks and enemies to the Church of Rome Tom. 6. Bibl. Sanct. pag. 101. 102. Gentianus Hervetus another of your side doth write in defence of Cabasilas in his Preface to the Reader before Cabasilas his booke intituled A Compendious Interpretation upon the Divine Sacrifice extant dicto 6 Tom. Bibl. Sanctae pag. 159. But he is thus blamed by your De la Bigne Dealbat Aethiopem Gentianus labouring to excuse Cabasilas doth but wash a Blackamoore for it is manifest he was a Schismaticke that he burned with hatred against the Church of Rome and wrote an Haereticall Booke against Tho. Aquinas Yet he is placed by Bellarmine amongst his Ecclesiasticall Writers in a distinct Columne also of his Chronologie from Haereticks Ab Anno 1400 ad 1500. Marcus Ephesinus Insignis Theologus as hee is stiled in the Acts of the Councell of Florence Sessione 2. apud Surium Tom. 4. Laonicus Chalcondilas who being of the Greeke Church testifieth that the agreement made at Florence was not received in Greece lib. 1. de rebus Turcicis non longè à principio Thus have I finished my Catalogue of Greeke Writers having many more to insert if any just exception can be given against these I will conclude concerning them with these two Arguments the one to prove that they were of our Faith and Church the other to prove that they were not of the Roman Faith or Church thus All they that doe professe the Apostles Creed as it was explicated in the Nicene Councell that receive the Scriptures received by the Protestants that receive the foure first Generall Councels and the two Sacraments of Baptisme and the Eucharist under lawfull Pastors are of the Protestants Faith and Church But those Authors as all others of the Greeke Church did professe and receive the said Creed Scriptures Councels and Sacraments under lawfull Pastors Ergo They are of the Protestants Faith and Church The Proposition is A definitione ad
in explication so that they all receive the distinction which you would seeme to reject as if the admitting of that distinction did infer a libertie to reject all Church authority and not to be satisfied by what is taught by any Church How this doth follow I know not I thinke it is as farre from due consequence as to say I have my poake full of plumbes therefore that is the way to London It is my hard hap to meet with an Adversary which hath so little honesty as to falsifie my words so little learning as that he hath not and it seemes he cannot frame one Argument I am loath to take the paines to adde forme to such rude matter to draw the line of reason and measure with rules of Art such rotten stuffe such incohaerent disjoynted speeches as that himselfe was afeard to insert the note of illation a Ergo. therefore but I will doe it for him Master Rogers hath distinguished betweene Doctrines fundamentall and necessary and Doctrines not fundamentall but accessorie Ergo Master Rogers may be further allowed to reject all Church authority and not be satisfied with any Church Doctrine Negatur Argumentum Master Fisher for if it be a good Argument let me urge it thus Aquinas Occham Espenseus The Master of the Sentences Bonaventure Durandus c. a world of Schoolemen and other Writers doe make the same distinction Ergo Aquinas Occham Espenceus the Master of the Sentences with the Schooles in generall are allowed to reject Church authoritie and Church Doctrine if the Argument were true thus it must follow I was so farre from accounting that to be necessary which I list so to account as that I desired of you my Adversary to be informed and directed herein Whereas you object that an Anabaptist might prove his Church to have been alwayes visible by my Rules definitions and distinctions is most untrue one of the Rules or Medium by which I did prove my Church was Antiquitie Vniversality and Consent will you grant that this Medium doth agree to the Anabaptist in that point which especially gives him that name viz. in denying Baptisme to children It seemes you have little regard what you say that you will thus strengthen the Anabaptist in his errour as if he had Antiquity Vniversalitie and Consent for his excluding children from Baptisme Or if by his negative he put me to prove the affirmative that children are to be baptized I will prove it by the testimonies of Antiquity Vniversality and Consent But I am not now to deale with Anabaptists but with a Papist CHAP. XXII Fisher FOr proofe whereof let it be supposed that Master Râ—gers could as he cannot produce out of Scriptures and Fathers other Writers in all Ages as many and as plaine and repugnant affirmative sentences against the negative Doctrine of Anabaptists as Catholickes ordinarily doe agaiâ—st Protestants negatives And then I aske Master Rogers Whether this Anabaptist may not as usually Protestants do take one or other exception either of Argument or Booke out of which the sentence is cited as if it were not undoubtedly Canonicall or Authenticall or against the Translation or Transcript or Printed Copie as not certainely knowne to be conforme to the first Antographon or Originall or against the interpretation and sense of the words or the consequence gathered out of them as if some other sense were intended by the Authour Or if none of these exceptions can be made whether he may not at least say that it is not the faith or consent of all Antiquitie which doth hold such an affirmative contrary to his negative Doctrine but onely the opinion of some one or few whilst others hold the contrary or seeme doubtfull Or if it be shewed to be the generall Doctrine of all who had occasion to write of that matter without any one teaching contrary whether he may not deny the point to be fundamentall and say that they differ not from him in Doctrine necessary but onely in Doctrine accessory and that notwithstanding this difference they may and are possessors of his faith and members of his Anabaptist Church All this doubtlesse he may say and so defend ancient Fathers to be of his Faith and Church as well as Master Rogers can defend them to be of his faith and Church Neither can Master Rogers disprove what the Anabaptist averreth but with the same breath he disprooveth his owne Booke and maketh it appeare to every judicious Reader that he neither can truely name soundly prove nor in any good sort defend either the Ancient Fathers or any other Orthodox whom he nameth or any lawfull Pastors or others Catholicks or Hereticks before Luther or indeed Luther himself to have held the entire Protestant faith for if all Protestant Doctrines which be different from the faith of the Roman Church may be called Doctrines of Protestant faith it may be evidently shewed that none of the aforesaid did in all points of faith agree with the English Protestant Church whose Ministers are bound to subscribe to the 39 Articles above mentioned Rogers All this wilde discourse is to overthrow my Grounds by shewing that they may agree with an Anabaptist who as he supposeth is not of the visible Church taketh it as granted by me wherin he is deceived For I hold the Anabaptist though I condemne his errour in denying Baptisme unto children to be a member of the visible Church though diseased as the Papist is and lesse diseased then he his Argument which commeth from him as a Beares Whelpe or worse for ever it wanteth some principall limme being formed is this Those are no true Gounds Distinctions Definitions or Arguments an Anabaptist may prove himselfe to be of the Church But by Master Rogers Grounds Distinctions Definitions and Arguments by which an Anabaptist may prove himselfe to be of the Church Ergo Master Rogers Grounds Distinctions Definitions and Arguments are no true Grounds I deny his major which he taketh as granted committing his old fallacie of Petitio Principii begging and supposing that for a medium and principle which is denied or at least questioned and spends himselfe wholly in proving the minor which I grant not for any proofe that he brings but for divers other reasons which I can alleadge as namely these amongst others An erroneous opinion in matters of practise and morall praecepts doth not exclude out of the visible Church but errour in matters of faith The errour of the Anabaptist is in matters of practise not in matters of faith Ergo His errour doth not exclude him out of the visible Church They do not deny Baptisme nor any thing that is substantiall in Baptisme but onely erre in a circumstance of time denying that unto children not absolutely and for ever but untill they come to make profession of their faith Shall this exclude them and their Children out of the Church and why because by this delay many children dying without Baptisme as you suppose are damned but
vel per se vel er accidens Are neither essentially nor accidentally the object of faith That which you alleadge out of Athanasius I willingly embrace I receive his Creed I have often professed it in publicke but what is that to your new Creed I finde in Athanasius his Creed neither Purgatory nor Indulgence nor Transubstantiation nor Invocation of Saints nor seven Sacraments nor worshipping of Images Wheras you say I must hold it in the uncorrupted sense of the Catholike Church I doe imbrace it but I will not understand the Church of Rome or the Pope for the Catholike Church as you doe The Catholike Church never received your Purgatory your halfe Communion your worshipping of Images as I have shewed already I will obstinately maintaine nothing contrary to the known judgement of a lawfull Generall Councell but your Councels of Trent and Lateran are no such they are but fopperies and the jugling tricks of the Popish faction to cozen the world Whatsoever we deny when you prove it out of Scripture we will beleeve it here is no obstinacie Whatsoever is determined by Councels we will receive fide humana but not divina as the saying of Reverend men but not as the Oracles of God So also we approve the unanimous consent of the Fathers in receiving all revealed truth we are farre from Heresie in submitting to the Catholike Church and Decrees of Councels we clear our selves from being Schismatikes in following the unanimous consent of the Fathers we shew our selves to be no Innovators but you by worshipping of Images shew what respect you have to Scripture by your new Creed you shew what reverence you have to Generall Councels seeing the Councell of Calcedon decreed having repeated that which is commonly called the Nicene Creed Isidor fol. 83 and urged by the Grecians in the Councell of Florence Surius Tom. 4. Ses 5. Ferrariae habita Lib. 7. c. 1. de loc The. pag. 422 423. De rebus Muscovitarum pag. 38. In apara Sacr. in Diamperi Conc. that no man should write or say other Creed and whosoever did if Bishops and Clergie-men let them bee deposed if Monkes and Lay men let them be accursed What regard you have to the unanimous consent of the Fathers appeareth by your Doctrine that the Virgin Mary was conceived without originall sinne contrary to Chrysostome Ambrose Augustine Bernard and all the holy men that made mention of that point as your owne Canus confesseth and so you are Innovators Schismaticks and Heretikes despised and excommunicated by all other Christian Churches in the World By the Graecians as appeareth by Posevine your owne Jesuite by the Indians as is acknowledged by the same Author by the Coftie of Aegypt and consequently by all the rest of the Iacobites the Aethiopians and others acknowledging all subjection unto the Patriarch of Alexandria so that upon you alone that curse is fallen Nec amet quenquam nec ametur ab vllo You hate you condemne all Churches of the World and they condemne you you account them for Schismaticks and Hereticks and they you for Schismaticks Hereticks and Idolaters your worshipping of Images hinder the conversion of the Iewes and Turkes who for this cause esteeme you for subtill Atheists and heathenish Idolaters falling downe to a blocke and worshipping the worke of mens hands We worship God Fisher Whereas therefore it is certaine that Protestants hold divers Negative Doctrines not onely not found in but contrary to Scriptures Councels and Fathers and other Orthodox Authors in all Ages It evidently followeth that Master Rogers hath not yet named nor can name nor hath proved nor can prove or defend any of those he named or undertaketh to name to have beene visible Protestants in all Ages before Luther and consequently he cannot be said to have made any good answer either to Master Fishers Question or to his five Propositions or to his other Paper written to explicate the sense of the said Question Rogers What you say certainely is most false that Protestants hold divers Negative Doctrines contrary to Scriptures Councels and Fathers if you understand Generall Councels and unanimous consent of Fathers We hold many Doctrines not expresly set downe in Scriptures but none contrary to Scriptures neither doe we count any thing matter of faith but what is expresly contained in Scriptures Whereas you say that I have not yet named nor proved Authors of the Protestants faith in all Ages the present discourse will shew to be false which I referre to the Reader Deo gloria in aeternum FINIS