if I do not who hath taught you to speake vntruly my woordes I haue expressed lette the Reader consider of them and here also take a note of your truth and honestie Chap. 2. the. 5. Diuision T. C. Pag. 139. Sect. 1. Afterwardes he sayeth that for so much as this place hath bene vsed to proue a Pastor or Bi hop in euery churche therefore it cannot be vsed to proue these Elders so that sayeth he there must needes be eyther a contradiction or else a falsification The place is rightly alleaged for both he one and the other and yet neyther contradiction to themselues nor falsification of the place but onely a miste before M. Doctors eyes which will not let him see a playne and euident truth which is the worde Elder is generall and comprehendeth both those Elders which teach and gouerne and those which gouerne onely as hath bene shewed out of S. Paule Io. Whitgifte If it had these two significations as I haue proued that it hath not yet that it is so taken in the. 14. of the Actes I cannot reade in any writer and I haue shewed M. Caluines and M. Brentius iudgements to the contrary whiche in any wise mans opinion are able to counteruayle your credite and bare deniall And surely in that place it cannot be taken but in one and the selfe same signification except you will say that the spirit of God speaketh ambiguously and vseth aequiuocations Which were to derogate much from the simplicitie and plainenesse of the Scriptures Wherefore the Authors of the Admonition in alleaging that text in some place to proue the election of Pastors and in some other place to proue the office of Seniors speake they know not what and dally with the Scriptures euen as you do in like manner when you take vpon you the defense of so manifest a contradiction Chap. 1. the. 6. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 114. Sect. 1. In the. 1. Corin. 12. S. Paule sayeth that God hath ordeyned in the Go rnours in the church Church first Apostles then Prophetes thirdly teachers then them that do miracles after that the giftes of healing helpers gouernours diuersities of tongues here is not one worde of the office of Seniors neyther yet of their names for this worde gouernours teacheth vs that Christ hath ordeyned in his church some to beare rule gouerne but whether one in euery congregation or moe whether ministers of the worde or other whether Magistrates or Seniors it is not here expressed howsoeuer it is it maketh nothing for your purpose T. C. Pag. 139. Sect. 1. And whereas M. Doctor sayth that the place of the Corinths may be vnderstanded of ciuill 1. Co. 12. Magistrates of preaching ministers of gouernours of the (*) A manif st vntruthe for there is no such thing affir ed. whole Churche and not of euery particular Churche and finally any thing rather than that whereof it is in dee e vnderstanded I say first that he still stumbleth at one stone whiche is that he can not put a difference betweene the Churche and common wealth and so betweene the Churche offycers whiche he there speaketh of and the offycers of the common wealth those whiche are cclesiasticall and those whiche are ciuill Then that he meaneth not the minister whiche preacheth it may appeare for that he had noted them before in the worde teachers and last of all he can not meane gouernour of the whole Church onlesse he shoulde meane Pope if he will say he meaneth an Archbishop which gouerneth a whole Prouince besides that it is a bolde speeche without all warrant I haue shewed before that the worde of God alloweth of no suche office and therefore it remayneth that it muste be vnderstanded of this office of Elders Io. Whitgifte Héere haue you manyfestly fals yed my booke and greatly abused me For I haue not these wordes of gouernours of the whole Church and not of euery particular Churche neyther any thing sounding that way the Reader hath my wordes before his eyes let him consider whether you haue reported them truely or no. Surely if there were nothing else your ofte leasings might sufficiently conuince your doctrine of méere vanitie and forgerie But to returne to your Replie First I can not put any suche difference betwixte the Churche and a Christian common wealth the Church officers and christian Magistrates that they may not be comprehended vnder this worde vsed in this place by the Apostle For I vtterly renounce that distinction inuented by Papistes and maynteyned by you whiche is that Christian The Papists opinion of christian Magistrates Magistrates doe gouerne not in the respect they be Christians but in the respecte they be men and that they gouerne Christians not in that they be Christians but in that they be men Whiche is to giue no more authoritie to a Christian Magistrate in the Church of Christ than to the great Turke I am fully persuaded therefore that there is no suche distinction betwixte the Churche of Christ and a Christian common wealthe as you and the Papistes dreame of And therefore there is no cause why th Apostl maye not in this place vnder this worde Gouernours comprehende as well ciuill Magistrates as ecclesiasticall The whiche notwithstanding I doe not determinately affirme as likewise I haue not done in myne Answere for I would be glad to learne and to heare some reason to the contrarie Master Gualter seemeth to auour this opinion for expounding this place he sayth He comprehendeth seuenthly Gualter in Cor. 12. in this order gouernours vnder whome are conteyned ciuill persons whiche in worldly matters dyd ayde all men and had the hearing of causes if any fell out amongst the Christians And a little after There is no neede of suche publikely nowe a dayes seeing there are christian Magistrats by whose authoritie all these thinges may be better prouided for Moreouer the Apostle may meane in that place Bishops or Pastors of whome he made no mention before For you will not haue the office of a Pastor of a Doctor confounded wherefore you forget your selfe in saying that in this worde teachers he meaneth the minister that teacheth that is the Pastor for of him I am sure you meane Last of all I haue no where sayde that he meaneth one gouernour of the whole Church neyther haue I written one worde tending to that ende but this I say agayne whether the Apostle meaneth one ruler in euery congregation or mo is not héere determined and I sée no cause as I haue sayde whye in this place of th Apostle thys word Gouernours may not eyther signifie the Christian Magistrates o Ecclesiasticall as Archbishops Bishops or whatsoeuer other by lawfull authoritie are appoynted in the Churche neyther is there any reason to be shewed why he shoulde rather meane your Seniors than any other Magistrates Sure I am that there be learned men whiche thinke that the Apostle in this worde dothe comprehende Ecclesiae
first priuately admonished this maketh nothing for your purpose it taketh away authoritie of iudging and condemning from priuate men and not from publike magistrates In the. 12. of the first to the Corinth verse 28. these be the words of the Apostle And God hath ordeyned some in the Churche as first Apostles secondly Prophetes thirdly teachers then them that do miracles after that the gifte of healing helpers gouernours diuersitie of tounges How can you gather of these wordes that all this commeth to passe that is hatred fauour corruption by money and affection in iudgement bycause the regiment lefte of Christe to his Churche is committed to one mans hands In these wordes the Apostle declareth that Christ hath lefte in his Churche gouernours and thereof you may well conclude that in the Churche there muste be some whiche shoulde haue authoritie ouer the reste The Apostle dothe not here An vnperfect reason say that in euery particular congregation Christ hath left many gouernours no more than he sayeth that he hath left many pastors for one flocke but in his Churche he hath ordeyned gouernours The gouernement of the whole vniuersall Churche is not by Christe committed to one Bishop or one Prince nor the gouernment of the whole worlde to one Emperour for no one man can discharge such a cure and therefore he hath appoynted in his Churche diuers Bishops diuers Princes many gouernours But one Prince may suffise to gouerne one kingdome and one Archbishop one Prouince as chiefe and principall ouer the reste one Byshop one Diocesse one Pastor one parishe neyther doth the Apostle speake any thing to the contrarie In the. 12. to the Romaines it is thus written he that ruleth vvith diligence What maketh this for your purpose or how cā you wring it to your assertion In the. 5. of the. 1. to Timothie The Elders that rule vvell are vvorthy of double honour c. Paule sheweth in these wordes that suche are worthy theyr stipende reward which rule well in the Church and do their duties diligently But what is that to your assertion The places alledged out of the fiftenth of the Actes be of the like sorte Wheresoeuer mention is made in the Scriptures of gouernours Lacke of discretion in al ging of scriptures or Elders that you alledge to improue the gouernment of one man wherein you shewe a great wante of iudgement And yet there is no one person in this Realme the Prince only excepted which hath such absolute iurisdiction as you would make your disciples beleue But your meaning is that Christe lefte the whole gouernment of his Churche to the Pastor and to some foure of fiue of the Parish besides which you are not able to proue your places of scripture alleged signifie no such matter In those places y t be gouerned by many do you not see what cōtention there is what enimitie what factiōs what partes taking what cōfusion what little good order obserued what carelesnesse dissolutnesse in al māner of behauiour I could make this manifest by examples if I were disposed In the. 18. of Exodus which place you quote to proue that Seniors ought to be zelous and godly Iethro giueth Moses counsell not to weary himselfe in hearing all matters that be brought vnto him but rather to commit the hearing and determining of smaller matters to others And therefore verse 21. he sayeth Prouide thou among all the people men of courage fearing God men dealyng truly hauing couetousnesse and appoynt suche ouer them to be rulers ouer thousands rulers ouer hundredes rulers ouer fifties and rulers ouer tennes c. This maketh nothing for Seniors Moses here was chiefe these were but his vnder officers placed by himselfe This place serueth well for the gouernment of one Prince ouer one whole realme and giueth him good counsell what vnder officers he ought to choose To the same effect and purpose is that spoken and written whiche you cite out of the first of Deuteron verse 13. T. C. Pag. 146. Sect. 1. The rest comprehended in these sections is answered before beyng matter whiche perteyned vnto the Archbishop Io. Whitgifte Uery litle of it perteyneth to the Archbishop The Authors of y ◠Admonitiō bring in all these places of Scripture to proue the gouernment of your Seniors but how aptly it app areth in that you cannot salue their follies in so vnapt allegatiōs There be other thinges that require answere but you haue shifted of all in saying that they perteyne to the Archbishop be answered before when as neyther of both is true for they perteyne to your Seniors and be no where as yet answered But I leaue it to the Reader here to consider why you haue not set downe my booke in your Replie ¶ The inconuenience of the Seigniorie in the tyme of Christian Princes especially in the state of this Church Chap. 3. Nowe that you haue spoken all that you can for your Seniors giue me leaue a litle to declare the absurdities and inconueniences that must of necessitie follow that kinde of gouernment 1. Difference disagrement in orders and religion First euery seuerall parish must be as it were a seuerall Church gouerned by seuerall orders ceremonies yea and peraduenture professe seueral points of doctrine for there muste be equalitie among ministers and one of them muste not haue to do with anothers parishe The whole gouernment of the Parish must remayne in the minister and certayne Seniors who shall haue authoritie to correct vice abolishe ceremonies appoynt orders abregate customes make Ecclesiasticall lawes as they shall thinke good for that congregation So that whatsoeuer the Pastor and his Seniors deuise and agrée vpon be it good or euill common or singular it must be obeyed vnder the payne of Excommunication Secōdly that Seigniorie being choosen by the Pastor the parish if the Prince or 2. Confusion of 〈◊〉 any other noble man be of that congregation choosen to that office by the most parte he must not refuse it but attende vpō it be at M. Pastors calling who is the chiefe of the Seigniorie in that respect aboue Earle Duke Ring or whosoeuer moreouer he must be contented to be lincked ioyned in commission with the basest sort of the people if it please the parish to appoynt to him suche Colleags as it is like they will Yea and if they be in matters of discipline and gouernment by such simple Seniors ouerruled as it is most like they shall they must therewith be contented Thirdly it burdeneth the parish more than they are able to beare for wheras now 3. Burden and charge of parishes they repine at the finding of their Pastors then they muste be enforced besides the Pastor to nourish Deacons and sixe or seuen Seniors with widowes also Fourthly it bringeth in a new Popedome tyrānie into the Church for it giueth 4. Tyranny to the Pastor his fellow Seniors authoritie to exercise discipline by
25. Diuision T. C. Pag. 65. Sect. 3. Then I say that it is too too vnskilfully done to separate order and discipline from then that haue the ministerie of the woorde in hand as though the Church without Archbishops and Archdeacons ▪ were acōfused heape and a disordered lumpe when as S. Paule teacheth it to be without them a bodie consisting of all his partes and members comely knitte and ioyned together wherein nothing wanteth nor nothing is to much Io. Whitgifte Order and discipline are not separated from the ministery of the worde although all such Authoritie to execute discipline is not equally giuen to all as be ministers of the woorde haue not the like authoritie to execute them For as it is sayd in that Latine booke for order and policies sake more is graunted to the Archbishop than to the Bishop neither will any learned man so greatly maruayle at this seing the practise thereof was in the Apostles time For Paule had more large and ample authoritie than Timothie and Timothie than the resse of the ministers of Ephesus What if the Church without Archbishops and Archdeacons were perfect in S. Paules time and may be perfect at other times doth it therefore follow that the Church in no time or stare may haue them or rather that they be not necessarie at some time for the Churche In S. Paules time Apostles Prophets workers of miracles giftes of healing diuersitie of tongs were counted necessarie and principall partes of this body which not with standing you confesse now to be cut of and yet the bodie perfect So that you see this is no reason at all to say that the Church in S. Paules time was a perfect body without Archbyshops and Archdeacons Ergo they are not necessary in the Church of Christ. For I might as well reason thus The Church of Christe in S. Paules time was not perfect without Apostles Prophets doers of miracles giftes of healing diuersitie of tongs therefore it is not now perfect being without them And likewise it was then perfect without Christian magistrates The vnskilfull reasoning of T. C. openeth a bore to Anabaptisme Ergo Christian magistrates are to be remoued from the Church This kinde of reasoning as it is vnskilfull bicause it doth not distinguish the times of the Churche neither considereth necessarie circumstances so it is moste perilous and openeth a dore to Anabaptisme and confusion Moreouer I told you before that although this name Archbishop is not expressed The office of the Archbishop expressed in scripture in the Scripture yet is the office and function as it is euidently to be séene in the examples of Timothie and Titus yea and in the Apostles themselues whose office of planting Churches thorough the whole world is ceassed but their care for the good gouernment of those Churches which were planted and their authoritie ouer those Pastors whom they placed doth and must remayne in such places where there are Churches And therefore M. Bucer writing vpon the fourth to the Ephesians sayth Bucer in Eph. thus Miletum Presbiteros Ecclesiae Ephesinae conuocat tamen quia vnus inter eos praeerat alijs primam Ecclesiaecuram habebat in eo propriè residebat nomen Episcopi In the Actes Paule calleth the same men Bishops and Elders when as he called together the ministers of the Church of Ephesus vnto Miletum yet bicause one amongst them did rule ouer the reste and had the chiefe care of the Churche the name of Bishop did properly remayne in him So that this superioritie and iurisdiction which we speake of was euen in the Apostles time as it is more at large afterward proued Chap. 1. the. 26. Diuision T. C. Pag. 65. Sect. 3. Doth it not pertayne to order that the Apostle sayth that God hath set first Apostles secondly Prophets thirdly teachers are not these wordes First Second Thirde differences of order if this be not order surely I know not what order is And yet neyther Archbishop nor Archdeacon author of this and it was kept also before they were hatched Io. Whitgifte Yes but will you haue the same order now then muste you haue Apostles and Prophets which you denie so that this order you sée is not perpetuall wherefore from time to time that order among the ministers of the woorde muste be obserued That order multe be obserued which is conuenient for the state that is most conuenient for the state of the Church Neyther is any agaynst such order but those that will not liue in order Did euer any man denie but that there was order in the Apostles tyme All this is but to make the reader beleue that some such thing is in that Latin booke when there is not one woorde whereof any such thing can be gathered is this your simplicitie Chap. 1. the. 27. Diuision T. C. Pag. 65. Sect. 4. Let vs see of discipline and gouernment which we may see to be cōmitted to those which haue the preaching of the worde and to others also which did not preach the worde when S. Paule 1. Tim. 5. sayth that the elders which gouerne well are worthie double honour especially those which trauell in the word where he appoynteth the gouernment to the ministers of the word to those also that were not ministers of the worde And therevpon it followeth that the ministers of the Church ar not seuered one from an other as you bycause some haue the ministration of the worde and Sacraments only and some with the administration of the Sacraments and worde haue also the gouernment and discipline in their handes but cleane contrarywise S. Paule distinguisheth them and sheweth that all the ministers in the Church haue the gouernment but all haue not the worde to handle so that he distinguisheth the ministery into that which is occupied in the worde and gouernment and into that which is occupied in the gouernment onely But in this distinction you do not onely forget S. Paule but you forget your selfe For if S. Paule speake in that place of those that meddle with the ministring of the worde and sacraments (*) You falsifie my woordes by displacing the worde only only why doth the bishop which is one of the ministers that S. Paule speaketh of beyng the same that pastor is why I say doth he meddle with the discipline and order of the Church seyng that belongeth not to him by your distinction why doth also the Archbyshop whom you say is a byshop meddle with it And thus you see you neede no other aduersary than your selfe to confute you Io. Whitgifte The reader should better haue vnderstoode what you had gone aboute if you had set before his eyes the wordes that you confute Now I scarce vnderstand your meaning my selfe You shote altogether without a marke I know no man that denieth discipline and gouernment to be committed to those that haue the preaching of the worde and to others also which preach not the worde But if
Donatisme pag. 622 The Replyer put to the proofe of his ceremonies 614 The Replier tripped in his own net pag. 693 T. C. teacheth S. Augustine to speak pag. 609 The marke that the Replyer shoteth at 56 The drift of the Replier 315 T. C. forsaketh the Apostolical form in Election 193. 195 ¶ Telesphorus a good Bishop 6 2 ¶ Theodoret had gouernement of 800. churches 415. 472 Theodoret of Chrysostome 412 ¶ Thracia annexed to the Archbisshoprike of Constantinople 413 ¶ Of these wordes Take thou eate thou 600 ¶ Diuersitie of Tymes require a diuerse gouernement c. 174. c. ¶ Timothies authoritie 401 Timothie Bishop of Ephesus 404 c. 470. Timothie oft absent from Ephesus pag. 236 The iurisdiction that Timothie vsed in some respect ciuill 769 ¶ Titus Archbishop of Creta 325. 400. 431. 470. ¶ Titles of dignitie in ministers not Antichristian 353 Honorable Titles of Bishops 448 Men called by vndeserued Titles 70 71. Titles in the church vnder the lawe whereof God is not the expresse author 304 ¶ The othe of the fellowes of Trinitie Colledge in Cambridge 1. 235. Trinitie Colledge and the fellowes deliuered frō the slaunderous Replye 745 ¶ The maintenance of Truth as necessarie as the suppression of errours 496 ¶ It is not better to frame our ceremonies to Turkes than to papists pag. 471 V. ¶ Vanitie 351 ¶ Omne verum à spiritu Sancto est pag. 551. 552 ¶ Vicars or substitutes 681 ¶ Victor a good Bishop 510 ¶ Vix what it importeth 796 ¶ Vniuersitie landes stand on the same pinne with Bishops 452. ¶ Vse of things wickedly inuented pag. 273. c. Priuate vse of Idolatrous things forbidden 272 Common vse of Idolatrous things page 273 The vse and abuse of things indifferent 276 ¶ Vsurpe both in Ministring and preaching offend God 520 W ¶ VVa er cakes 596 ¶ VVatchmen and Sheapheards 220 237. ¶ The weake not offended with apparell 〈◊〉 In what sort of indifferent thinges we ought to respect the weake 258. ¶ VVhoremongers in the visible Church 1 ¶ VVickednesse of men causeth not lawes to be euill 1 4 ¶ VVidowes 6 ¶ VVine and Bread consecrated too Idols 275. 276 ¶ Froward wittes 481 ¶ VVhen a woman maye preach Christ. 50 The cause of the VVomans absence from the Church after her deliuerance 53 The VVomans vayle 53 ¶ Strife about wordes proper to q rell rs 5 ¶ VVhat it is to adde and to take away from the VVord 1 Difference betwixt the worshipping of the true God falsly and 〈◊〉 Gods 27 ¶ Mens writings read in the chur pag. 7 The occasion and circumstances of mens writings must bee considered 114. 292 Z ¶ Zuinfildians condemne reading pag. 252. 569. 71 ¶ The Zeale of the Replier 36 Preposterous Zeale 48 The Printer to the Readers I could not be but that in so great a volume some things should escape euen those that are diligent and carefull I especially considering the speedie dispatch and other circumstances notwithstanding if before you enter to reade this booke you will take the paynes to mende these faulces with your pen the rest being lighter will not greately stay your course in reading or otherwise alter the sense and meaning Fare you well Pag. 2. line 8. reade plainly Pag. 21. line 22. for priuately reade priu ly Pag. 50. line vlti for I speake not of their opinions reade I speake not of all their opinions Pag. 62. line 38 reade in these Pag. 67. line 37. for or reade for Pag. 78. line 34. reade and seeking helpe of the Egyptians Pag. 104. lin 22. for abiunde reade aliunde Pag. 124. line 45. reade Is homo Pag. 191. line 45. for worde reade wordes Pag. 244. line 13. reade in the euill day Pag. 252. lin 46. for any confession reade my confession pag. 253 lin 7. reade Chap. 1. pag. 254. line 13. reade chap. 1. and line 48. reade Chap. 2. pag. 304. in y ◠margēt reade wherof God pag. 349. line 29. for and reade as pag. 448. line 32. reade 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 pag. 468. lin 46. for his own reade this one pa. 481. lin 32. for more reade moue pag. 508. lin 1. reade encomber the Answerer pag. 523. lin 25. reade conuentur pag. 536. line 20. for yll read it pag. 537. lin 42. for those read this pag. 541. line 21. for constraine read restreyne pag. 661. line 20. read thus election of ministers is no correctiō of vice neither yet is the deciding c. pag. 663. line 53. for there reade therefore pag. 665. in the margent for eternal reade externall pag 685. lin 6. reade the. 11. diuision pag. 708. line vit for rather reade either pag. 722. line vlt. adde this heaping vp of scriptures shewe me one place in this epistle yea in pag. 731. line 41. for seruice reade sorow pag. 803. lin 7. reade Gods worde pag. 806. line 4. reade of defiance salued pag. 810. line 41. reade fi ¶ To the Churche of Englande and all those that loue the truth in it T. C. vvisheth mercie and peace from God our Father and from our Lorde Iesus Christe AS our men doe more willingly go to warfare and fighte with greater courage agaynst straungers than agaynst their Countreymen so it is with me in this spirituall warfare For I woulde haue wished that this controuersie had beene with the Papistes or with ether if any can be more pestilent and professed e mes of the Churche for that should haue beene lesse griefe to write and more conuenient to perswade that which I desire For as the very name of an enimie dothe kindle the desire of fighting and styrreth vp the care of prepa ng the furniture for the warre So I can not tell howe it commeth to passe that the name of a brother aketh that courage and abateth that carefulnesse whiche sheuld be bestowed in defence of the truthe But seeing the truthe ought not to be forsaken for any mans cause ▪ I enforced my selfe considering that if the Lorde mighte lay to my charge that I was not for certayne considerations so readie as I ought to haue beene to publishe the truthe he mighte more iustly condemne me if beeing oppugned and slaundered by others I shoulde not according to that measure which he hath dealte vnto me and for my small habilitie defende it and delyuer it from the euill reporte that some endeuour to bring vpon it An Answere to the Epistle dedicated by T. C. to the Churche of Englande c. IT doth not appeare by the style and maner of writing vsed in this your booke that there remayneth any portion of suche naturall affection or brotherly loue in you as you would beare the world in hand and séeme to haue by these your wordes For if you should haue written against the veriest Papist in the world the vilest person the ignorantest dolt you could not haue vsed a more spitefull and malicious more slaunderous and reprochfull more contemptuous and disdaynfull kinde of
to be holden for a lavve Whereby it is manifest that those things maye be retained in the Churche whych are not expressed in the Scripture In the same Epistle he reporteth the aunswere that Ambrose made vnto hym beyng demaunded whether it were lawfull to faste on the Sabboth daye or not to faste seyng that among the Churches there was some diuersitie in thys poyut Quando bic sum sayth he non ie uno Idem Sabbato quando Romae sum ieiuno Sabbato ad quamcunque ecclesiam veneritis eius morem seruate si pati scandalum non vultis aut facere VVhen I am here I faste not on the Sabboth vvhen I am at Rome I doe faste on the Sabboth and to what Churche so euer you come keepe the custome thereof if you vvill neyther suffer offence nor gyue offence The whole Epistle is worthy of reading T. C. Page 17. Sect. 3. 4. 5. 6. The Answerer goeth aboute to proue that they came yet out of good earthe and from good men whych if he had obtayned yet he maye well knowe that it is no good argumente to proue that they are good For (*) A true sayings but not truely applyed as the beste earthe bryngeth forth weedes so doe the beste men bring forthlyes and errours But let vs heare what is brought that if this visarde and shewe of truth be taken awaye all men may perceiue howe good occasion we haue to complaine and howe iust cause there is of reformation In the fyrst place of Saynt Augustine there is nothing against any thing which we holde for that that the Churche may haue things not expressed in the scripture is not (a) But it is against that that nothing should be placed in the Churche whyche God in his word hath not commaunded and therefore you do here but shifte of the controuersie against that it ought to haue nothing but that may be warranted by the scripture For they may be according to the scripture and by the Scripture which are not by plaine ter es expressed in the Scripture But agaynst you it ▪ maketh much and ouerturneth all your buylding in this booke For if in those things which are not expressed in the Scripture they are to be obserued of the Churche which are the customes of the people of God and the decrees of oure forefathers then how can these things be varyed according to time place and persons which you saye should be when as that is to be retayned which the people of God hath vsed and the decrees of the forefathers haue ordayned And then also howe can we doe safelyer than to followe the Apostles customes and the Churches in theyr tyme whych we are sure are oure forefathers and the people of God Besides that how can we retaine the customes and constitutions of the Papists in such things which were neither the people of God nor our forefathers I will not enter nowe to discusse whether it were well done to fast in all places according to the custome of the place You (b) Vntruth proceeding of Ignorance oppose Ambrose and Augustine I coulde oppose Ignatius Tertullian Tertul. de cor milit Ignat. ad phi epist. 5. whereof the one sayth it is nefas a detestable thing to fast vpon the Lordes day the other that it is to kill the Lord and this is the inconuenience that commeth of suche vnlearned kinde of reasoning S. Ambrose saith so and therefore it is true And although Ambrose Augustine being straungers and priuate men at Rome would haue so done yet it followeth not that if they hadde bene Citizens ministers there that they would haue done it if they had done so to yet it followeth not but y e they wold haue spokē against that appoinment of dayes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of fasting wherof Eusebius saith that Montanus was the first author I speake of y e which they ought to haue done for otherwise I know they both thought corruptly of fasting when as the one sayth it was remedie or rewarde to fast other dayes but in Lent August d temp ser. 62 Amb. 10. li ▪ epist ▪ not to faste was synne And the other asketh what saluation we can obtayne if we blot not our synnes by fastyng seyng that the Scripture sayth that fastyng and almes doth delyuer from sinne and therefore calleth them new teachers that shut out the merite of fasting which I therefore recyte bicause you would seeme by Augustine and Ambrose iudgements to alowe of the wekely and commaunded fastes Io. Whitgifte I haue sufficiently proued that the Scripture hathe not expressed all things that may be vsed in the Church touching ceremonies order and such matters for that is the question we haue nowe in handling and for further proofe and confirmation of the same I doe not disdaine the authoritie of any man especially of Augustine a man Augustine deliuered from vntrue surmises for his excellent learning and sound iudgement in most poynts of Religion estéemed of all that haue any shewe of learnyng or sparkle of modestie his opinicn of the sufficiencie of the Scripture in matters of saluation of the authoritie of it in iudgeing matters of controuersie is perfecte and sounde as may be séene Lib. 2. aduersus Cresco gramma Lib. contra Maximi Lib. de vnitate ecclesiae Lib. 2 de doct Christ ▪ Chap. 16. 20. Euang. Iohannis Epist. 112. and in a number of places else he speaketh also of Ceremonyes and traditions as moderately as diuinely and as warely as any man dothe as it appeareth euidently in these places that I haue in my answere alleaged And therfore he is not wyth suche contempte to be reiected nor yet defaced wyth vntrue surmises That which commeth from so good and learned a man is the rather to be beléeued so long as it is not repugnant to the worde of God And althoughe the best earth bringeth forth some weedes yet the good fruite muste not for the wéedes sake be refused This is a very meane reason good men sometimes erre and be deceiued therefore they must neuer in any thing be beléeued But to come to the purpose you say that this fyrst place of Saint Augustine is nothing agaynst any thing that you holde c. Surely and it maketh wholly for that which I holde for it proueth directly that there be some things wherein the Scripture hath not determyned any certaintie but lefte them to the disposition of others for he sayth In bis rebus de quibus nibil certi statu scriptura diuina ▪ c. and that these things be not suche as be repugnant or against the worde of God but accordyng to the rule of Saint Paule 1. Cor. 14. if you were not of purpose disposed agaynst your owne conscience and knowledge to abuse the reader you myghte easily vnderstande by my expressed words vttered in this portion of my answere and in all other places where I haue occasion to speake of the
of men But why doe they condemne whole Churches for indifferent things whiche if they woulde obey S. Paule ought to apply them selues to the weakenesse of euery one Beza in an Epistle of his prefixed before the confession of the Churches in Heluetia Beza sayth That all rytes and ceremonyes are not to be receiued without exception which the Apostolike Church it selfe hath vsed eyther as profitable or necessarie for their tymes and in his booke called confessio Christ. fidei cap. 5. he writeth That one cause of Councels and Idem Synodes was to make rules of ecclesiasticall discipline and to appoint the gouernment of the Church according to the diuersitie of time place and persons For it is necessarie that in the house of the Lorde all things shoulde be done in order of the vvhich order there is one generall reason in the vvorde of God 1. Cor. 14. But not one and the same forme agreeing to all circumstances And againe in the same Chapter he sayth The rules or canons of rytes and Idem orders in the Church haue respect to comelynesse in externall things and therefore they be neither generall for the most parte nor perpetuall for that which is profitable in some place in other some places would rather hurt and moreouer the diuerse respectes of the time are such that the same thing which for good considerations was ordained must of necessitie sometime be abrogated whereof it comes to passe that there is not onely so great varietie in the olde canons but contrarietie also Againe in the same Chapter VVe must Idem not alwayes looke what the Apostles did in politia ecclesiastica in the gouernmente of the Church seyng there be most diuerse circumstances and therfore absque 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 without ☜ preposterous zeale all things can not in all places and times be reduced to one and the same forme c. In the confessiō of the Churches in Heluetia c. it is thus written Men shall easily Confess ecclesiarum Heluet. gather this also that we doe not by any wicked schisme seuer or cut off oure selues from Christes holy Churches of Germanie Fraunce England and other Christian nations but that we well agree with all and euery one of them in the truth of Christe which here we haue acknowledged For albeit there is some varietie in diuerse Churches aboute the vttering and setting forth of their doctrine and aboute rytes and ceremonyes which they receiue as a meane to edifie their Churches yet that varietie neuer semed to minister cause of dissention and schisme in the Church for in such matters the Churches of Christ haue alvvayes vsed their libertie as we may reade in the Ecclesiasticall history I omit here the confession of the Church of VVirtenberge and the testimonyes of sundry other notable learned men I knowe no learned writer that doth denye the Church to haue authoritie in appoynting rytes ceremonyes discipline and kinde of gouernment according to the place time persons and other circumstances thoughe the same be not expressed in the word of God so that it doe nothing repugnante to the same But what néede I labour so much in a matter confessed by him that would séeme to ouerthrowe it for if the Iewes had twentie things left to their order in the Churche for our Pag. 21. Sect. one as T. C. hath affirmed and yet this commaundement not broken Deu. 4. 12. Nihil addes verbo c then may the Church of Christ vse hir libertie in like maner wythout any breache of the same Wherefore to conclude I nowe referre it to the iudgement of the Reader whether if be true or not that I haue affyrmed against the Authors of the Admonition to wit that those things onely are not to be brought in or vsed in the Church which the Lord himselfe in his word hath commaunded but that of necessitie in externall things and outward gouernment the Churche hath authoritie to determine according to time place person c. though the same be not commaunded or expressed in Scripture so that it be not repugnant to the word Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 32. Sect. 1. 2. Pag. 33. Sect. 1. The other places noted in this margent as Psal. 37. Rom. 12. 1. Cor. Scriptures vnchristianly abused by the Admonition 2. and the rest are not alleaged to proue any thing in cōtrouersie but onely withoute iudgement placed in the margent to make a shewe how aptly they be applyed I leaue to the consideration of the diligent Reader This one thing I can not but maruell at that these fellowes so please themselues in the platforme of their Church and attribute so much thervnto that they exhorte nay rather charge the courte of Parliament with perfecte hatred to detest the present state of the Churche with singular loue to embrace that which they prescribe in this Booke and to moue them rather to this perfect hatred of vs and singular loue of themselues they vse the authoritie of the. 31. and 139. Psalme In the one Dauid sayth that he hath hated them that gyue themselues to deceitfull vanities bicause he trusteth in the Lorde In the other speaking of the contemners of God of wicked and bloudie men Marke this spirite and of such as blaspheme God and be his enemyes he sayth I hate them vvith an vnfained hatred c. As thoughe all suche as like or alowe of the presente state of the Churche of this Realme of England gaue them selues to deceitfull vanities were contemners of God wicked and bloudy men blasphemers of God and his enimyes I will not aggrauate this blasphemie of theirs let Prince Nobles and all other louers of God his worde consider diligently this spirite and in time preuent the burning malice of the same no Turke no Iewe no Papist coulde possibly haue spoken more spitefully of this Church and state but such is the spirite of arrogancie To the lyke effecte they alleage the. 15. of Iohn 1. Timo. 3. Math. 7. 11. as thoughe they onely had the word of God and were of the Churche and we contemners and reiecters of the same O where is humilitie Truely if these men be not by discipline brideled they wil worke more harme to this Church than euer the Papist dyd Io. Whitgifte To this there is not one word spoken Admonition May it therefore please your wisedomes to vnderstande we in Englande are so farre off from hauing a Church rightly reformed according to the prescript of Gods word that as yet we are not come to the outwarde face of the same For to speake of that wherein all consent and wherevpon all writers accorde The outwarde markes wherby a true Christian Church is knowne are preaching of the worde purely ministring of the Sacramentes sincerely and Ecclesiasticall discipline which consisteth in admonition and correcting of faultes seuerely Touching the first namely the ministerie of the worde althougher must be confessed that the substance
to no other as the diligent reader may easily perceiue But howsoeuer the words of Cyprian sound certayne it is that neyther that in the. 20. of Numeri nor this in the. 1. of the Acts can proue any election made by the people Chap. 4. the. 7. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 44. Lin. 1. No certayne forme of electing ministers commaunded in the scriptures But I saye that in the whole scripture there is no commaundement that it should so be nor any example that maketh therein any necessary or generall rule but that it may be altered as time and occasion serueth For in suche matters not commaunded or prohibited in scripture touching ceremonies discipline and gouernmente the Churche hathe authoritie from time to time to appointe that whiche is most conuenient for the presente state as I haue before declared T. C. Page 32. Sect. 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. But you saye these examples are no generall rules (*) It will fal out that you haue neyther examples of all Apostles nor of all Churches nor of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 times Examples of all the Apostles in all Churches and in all purer times vncontrolled and vnretracted either by any the rimitiue and purer Churches or by any rule of the scripture I thinke ought to stande If it were a priuate example of one or in one place alone or if it were countermaunded by any other rule of the scripture then the example were not always safe to follow But what if there be commaundement also ▪ In the (a) You are driu to a streight when you are glad to serch a mandatum out of the ceremoniall law eight of the booke of numbers the Lorde commaundeth that the Leuites whiche preached the word of God to the people in their seuerall congregations shoulde be broughte before the Lord and before the people the people should lay their handes vpon the Leuits heads whiche what other thinge is it than to declare their liking of them and by that ceremonie to consecrate them and set them apart for that vse of their ministerie And if you say that it were a disorder that all should lay on their hands I graunt you but so he speaketh bycause the approbation was by all and some in the name of the rest declared that by their laying on of hands But me thinketh I here your old answer that this perteyneth not vnto vs being a thing done vnder the law But take heede what you say for if you will admitte neyther the generall examples of the new testament nor the commaundements and examples of the old take heede that you do not or euer you be aware spoyle vs of the chiefe and principall pillers and buttresses of our religion and bring vs (b) Not so but you seeme to bring vs to plai udaisme to playne Catabaptistrie which you say you are so afraid of For to proue the baptisme of children and yong infants what stronger hold haue we than that God commaunded in the old Testament that they should be circumcised and examples thereof in the new Testament for that the Apostles baptised whole families where by al likelyhoode there were children Now we say that there is this commaundement in the old Testament of the ministers and there are examples in the newe Testament generall and throughout why shoulde it not then be necessarie in this as well as in the other Besides that in the (c) This is a silly place to proue 〈◊〉 generall commaundement 6. of the Acts the Apostles commaund that the Church shoulde seeke them out Deacons whome they might appoynt ouer the poore Touching certayne Ceremonies I haue shewed that they are necessary as namely the sacramentes And as for discipline and gouernmente I haue shewed partly and more heereafter will be shewed that they are of the substance of the Gospell if to haue excommunication be to haue discipline or if to haue pastors or Byshops and Doctors and Deacons be gouernmente of the Church Io. Whitgifte You do still petere principium and build vpon a false grounde for I denie that you haue examples either of all or of any of the Apostles or that this kind of election hath bin in all Churches in al purer times c. and albeit for the proofe of this sufficiēt is said before yet will I adde something now also All the places of scriptures that you haue The diuersitie of electiōs in the Apostles time hither to alleadged are Act. 1. Act. 6. Act. 14. and. 2. Cor. 8. whiche places neither agrée in persons that were to be chosen nor in the manner and forme of choosing For the first of the Acts is of an Apostle the. 6. of Deacons the. 14. of Byshops and the. 2. Cor. 8. of such as were ioyned with Paule for the collecting and distributing of Almes Al men do graunt that the calling and electing of an Apostle is immediatly from God and therefore dothe differ from all other elections of Pastors Deacons c. But to let thys passe I pray you consider the diuers manner and forme vsed in all these places In the firste of the Acts Péeter made an exhortation to the disciples he appoynted out of what company the newe Apostle shoulde be taken the Apostles presented two after prayers made lots were giuen foorth and the Apostle was chosen by lot and not by voice but immediatly taken and reputed with the eleuen Apostles In the. 6. of the Acts the twelue Apostles willed the whole multitude to looke out seuen men of honest report c. to be Deacons and the whole multitude did choose seuen and presented them to the Apostles and the Apostles prayed layed theyr hands on them In the. 14. of the Acts Paule and Barnabas ordeyned ministers in euery Churche with praying and fasting In the seconde Corinth eyghte At Paules request the Churches appoynte certayne to bée collectours for the poore Saynctes with hym whyche of all these examples woulde you followe will you name them to the people or shall the people name them too you Will you haue two put vp togyther and one of them chosen by lotte Or will you haue the whole people for to choose and you to lay on handes or will you only haue the Bishops to choose to bée short will you pray only at the election or will you both pray and fast or haue you any commission to make a mixture of all those examples and so to make one rule where vnto all Churches at all times must of necessitie be bound I told you before that M. Caluine saith plainly that out of that example in the first of the Acts no certaine rule can be gathered of electing and choosing of ministers and M. Beza li. confess ca. 5. is as plaine that there can be no certaine rule gathered out of the Beza 6. of the Acts or out of that in the first his words be these In the election of Matthias lottes were cast but for a peculiar cause
sayth Vi enim eligendi pontificis potestatem ad se tunc rapiebant Romani For the Romaines then tooke by force vnto them selues power to choose their Bishop The second place of Platina argueth the vndiscretenesse of the people both in placing and displacing their Bishop and the authoritie of the Emperour in taking this authoritie of placing and displacing from them when they doe abuse it for here hée put out Benet whom they had chosen placed Leo whom they had displaced wherby it appeareth that there was not then any one suche prescripte forme of electing the Bishop of Rome but that it was in the authoritie of the Emperour to abrogate alter or chaunge it All this is nothing to the improuing of my assertion for I denie not but that the people had interest in elections of Bishops in diuers places and especially in the Church of Rome a long tyme But this dothe not proue that there is any prescript rule in Scripture for the election of ministers whiche maye not be altered and chaunged from tyme to tyme as shall be moste conuenient for the presente state of the Churche naye whatsoeuer ye haue hitherto sayde proueth the contrarie Platina doth not write that Otho coufessed that the election of the Byshop of 〈◊〉 did not perteyne vnto him you should haue a care to report the words of the author truly it is one thing to say that the election of the Byshop perteyneth to the Cleargie and people another thing to say that it perteyned not to him for it might perteine to them al. And the same Platina in the life of Io. 13. saithe that after Iohn was condemned by a councell and therefore fled away the Emperoure Otho at the request of the Cleargie did create Leo Byshop of Rome his words are these Hanc ob causam Otho persuadente Platina in 〈◊〉 ta Ioan ▪ 13 clero Leonem Romanum ciuem Lateranensis ecclesiae Scriniarium Pontificem creat For thys cause Otho by the perswasion of the Cleargie chooseth Leo a Citizen of Rome and keper of the monuments of the Church of Laterane to be Byshop He further in that place declareth how the people after the Emperours departure deposed Leo and placed Benet and how the Emperoure by force compelled them to place Leo agayne That Otho the Emperoure did take this graunt at the Byshops hands that the election of the Byshop should be in him and not in the people M. Bale testifyeth in manifest words in the life of Leo. 8. where he saith thus After he tooke from the Cleargie and people of Rome the power of choosing their Byshop whiche Carolus Magnus had gyuen Bale in vita Leon. 8. vnto them before and by a Synodall decree did commit the same to Otho the Emperoure for the auoyding of seditions whiche were wont to be in these elections and Otho receyuing this graunt thankfully that he mighte shewe himselfe agayne beneficiall towards the Sea of Rome restored all things which Constantine is feyned to haue giuen c. In the which words also it is to be noted y t this libertie of choosing their Byshop was granted vnto the people and Cleargie of Rome by Carolus Magnus the which not only M. Bale testifyeth in this place but M. Barnes also in these words Leo the. 8. vnderstanding the wickednesse of the Romaines in obtruding their friends to the Church by bribes threatnings and other wicked deuises did restore the interest of choosing the Byshop to Otho the Emperoure Whereof I also conclude that it is in the power of the ciuill magistrate to take order for elections of ministers and that the consent of the people is not of any necessitie required therevnto Chap. 6. the. 9. Diuision T. C. Page 36. Sect. 6. And if the Emperours permitted the election of the Byshop to that Citie where it made most for their suretie to haue one of their owne appoyntment as was Rome whiche with their Byshops did oftentimes put the good Emperoures to trouble it is to be thought that in other places both cities and townes they did not denie the elections of ministers to the people besides that certaine of those constitutions are not of Rome but of any citie whatsoeuer And these Emperours were and liued betwene 500. and odde yeares vntill the very poynte of a thousande yeares after Christ so that hitherto this libertie was not gone out of y e Church albeit the Pop which brought in all tyrannie and went about to take all libertie from the Churches was now on horse back and had placed himselfe in that Antichristian seate Io. Whitgifte In that the Emperours did but permitte such elections to the people it is manifest that the interest was in them else why should they be said to haue permitted it In déed true it is that the Emperours so long did remitte of their interest in suche elections that afterwards when they would haue claymed their right therein they coulde not obteyne it but by violence were shut from all as the histories manifestly deelare Hitherto you haue proued nothing in question neyther haue you reasoned ad I de m T. C. hath not reason ad idem for you shoulde either haue proued that the election of ministers dothe of necessitie perteyne to the people or that the same manner of electing is conueniente for thys Church of England in this time and state both which I haue improued and do still vtterly denie neyther dothe any thing that you haue alleadged proue eyther of them Chap. 6. the. 10. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Page 45. Sect. 3. Therefore this diuersitie of the state of the Church requireth a diue s kinde of gouernmente and another kinde of ordeyning ministers For this cause in Concilio Laodicensi whiche was Anno. 334. it was Concil Laodic decreed that the election of ministers shoulde not be permitted to the people T. C. Page 37. Sect. 1. 2. Those that write the Centuries (a) This is vntrue as shall appeare suspect this canon and doubt whether it be a bastard or no considering the practise of the Church But heere or euer you were aware you haue striken at your selfe For before you sayd that this order of choosing the minister by voyces of the Church was (b) An vntruth for I said not so but in the Apostles time and during the time of persecution And the firste time you can alleadge this libertie to be taken away was in the. 334. yeare of our Lord which was at the least 31. yeares after that Constantine the great began to reygne I say at the least bycause there be good authors that say that this councell of Laodicea was holdē Anno. 338. after the death of Ioninian the Emperoure and so there is 35. yeares betweene the beginning of Constantines reygne and this councell Now I thinke you will not say that the Church was vnder (c) The Churche was vnder persecution in Constantines time by the space of 13. yeares for
substance or being of baptisme whether Pa. 114. Sect. 1. he be minister or no that ministreth that sacrament Pag. 114. And this is that mysterie which you and your fellowes will not as yet openly vtter but craftily dissemble vntill you sée better oportunitie The truth is your intent is rebaptization and flat Anabaytisme But I haue declared sufficiently the vanitie of your collection in thys place and the weakenesse of your reasons touching this matter where you haue gyuen me more especiall occasion to speake of it Tract 9. Chap. 7. the. 7. Diuision T. C. Page 42. Sect. 2. 3. Seing then that the scripture doth teach this order that there should be no minister thrust vppon the Churche but by the consent thereof and reason perswadeth that ways and the vse of the Church hath bin so from time to time both in peace and in time of persecution both vnder tyrants and godly princes it cannot be without the high displeasure of almightie God the greate hurt and sore oppression of the church that one man should take this vnto him which perteyneth to so many or one minister which perteyneth to more than one especially where the aduise of learned ministers may concurre with the peoples election or consent Now if any man wil rise vp and say that this doctrine bringeth in disorder and by this meanes children boys and women should haue their voyces which is vnseemely all men vnderstande that where the election is most freest and most generall yet only they haue to do whiche are heads of families and that this is but a meere cauill to bring the truth in hatred which is vnworthy to be answered and requireth rather a Censor than a disputer to suppresse it Io. Whitgifte The scripture doth not teach any such order it hathe examples to the contrary it presribeth herein no certayne rule to be perpetuall there is better reason to the contrary if the diuersitie of the time and other circumstances be considered the Church also hath not at all times nor in all places vsed one forme and manner of election not in the Apostles time as it hath bin declared wherefore the Church is neyther hurte nor oppressed if the godly Magistrate alone do appoynt in it Byshops and take such order for admitting other inferioure Pastors as shall be thought to him most conueniente Neyther is God displeased with them for so doing if they séeke his glory therein the godly peace and quietnesse of the Church and haue respect to the end of the Apostles in appointing ministers But he is greatly displeased with those that make a necessitie where none is and trouble the Churches with their owne deuises and make contention for externall matters ¶ It is not necessarie that the people should haue interest in the election of ministers but the contrarie is conuenient Chap. 8. the. 1. Diuision Io. Whitgifte NOwe that you haue vttered all your authorities and reasons to proue that the people ought to haue interest in the electing of their ministers that I haue sufficiently I truste answered the same Lette it not be troublesome vnto you if summarily I collect my reasons that moue me to thinke the contrarie 1. And fyrst I will proue that there is no certaine forme of electing prescribed in Scripture but that the same is left frée for the Churches to appointe as shall bée thought most conuenient for their states and tymes 2. Secondly I will shewe that there hath bene greate diuersitie from tyme to tyme vsed in the Churche touching elections and that the people at all tymes and in all places haue not bene admitted thervnto 3. Last of all I will sette downe the reasons why the people haue bene debarred from such elections and why they ought still so to bée Touching the fyrst these be my reasons 1. Chryst whose factes and déedes we ought especially to followe did of himselfe Math. 10. Luke 10. alone without the consent of any call and choose his Apostles and lykewise the 70. disciples whome he sent to preache 2. The Apostles Acts. 1. altered this maner and forme for they presented two and the one of them was chosen by lotte 3. In the. 6. of the Actes they cleane altered this also for the people presented seuen to the Apostles and they were all chosen withoute lottes the Apostles also layde on their handes vpon them 4. In the. 14. of the Acts this forme is lykewise changed for Paule and Bar abas ordeyned ministers in euery citie without eyther presentment by the people or casting of lottes 5. In the. 13. of the Acts it is manyfest that Paule and Barnabas were sent onely by the Prophetes and Doctours without any consent of the people eyther giuen or required reade the beginning of the Chapter it is playne inough of it selfe 6. Paule sent Timothie and Titus and gaue them authoritie to ordeyne other 1. Tim. 5 2. Tim. 1. Tit. 1. So that it is certayne that here is no prescripte maner and forme appoynted to be obserued for euer séeing that the Apostles themselues did not bynd or tie themselues to anye suche rule which both M. Bullinger Zuinglius and Beza doe lykewyse confesse as I haue before declared And therefore M. Caluine as I tolde you before sayth that of that example in the first of the Acts no certayne rule can be gathered of electing and choosing ministers And M. Beza is of the same iudgement both for that example Act. 1. and the other also of Deacons Act. 6. as I haue lykewise declared before And in that booke of confession and. 5. Chapter he hathe this saying worthie to be noted Bycause the multitude is for the most parte ignorant and intractable and the Beza lib. con cap. 5. greater parte doth oftentymes preuayle agaynst the better not in a popular state lawfully appoynted are all things committed to the vnbridled multitude but certain Magistrates are appoynted by the consent of the people to rule and gouerne them if this wysedome be in worldely affaires muche more is a moderation to be had in those matters wherein men be oftentymes blynded Neyther is there any cause why any man of sounde iudgement should exclame that in such matters there is no place for pollicie except he can shew this policie wherof I speake to be repugnant to the word of God whiche I thinke he can not Hitherto M. Beza and he speaketh of the electors of Ministers And a little after he sayth that wee must not alwayes looke what the Apostles did in Ecclesiasticall pollicie Idem or in the gouernment of the Churche seeing there is so great diuersitie of circumstances that a man can not without preposterous zeale reduce all things in all places and tymes to one and the same forme but it is sufficient if respect be had to their ende and purpose whiche is not variable and that maner and forme vsed whiche leadeth therevnto c. Wherupon also I conclude that in the Scriptures there is no
the vnitie of the Church is conserued not by hauing one Bishop ouer all but by the agreement of the Bishops one with another For so he writeth that the church is knit and coupled togither as it were with the giue of the Bishops consenting one with an other And as for the compounding of controuersies it is manyfest that it was not done by one Byshop in a prouince but those byshops whych were neere the place where the schisme or heresie sprang For speaking of the appeasing of controuersies schismes and shewing how dyuers Bishops Li. 1. epi. 4 were drawen into the heresy of Nouatus he sayth that the vertue and strength of the Christians was not so decayed or anguished but that there was a portion of Priests which did not giue place vnto those rumes and shipwrackes of fayth And in another place he sayth therfore most deare brother the plentyfull body or company Li. 3. epi. 1 of the pr ests are as it were with the g ue of mutuall concorde and bande of vnitie ioyned togither that if any of our company be author of an heresy and goe about to destroy and rent the flocke of Christ the rest should helpe and as profitable and mercyfull shepheards gather togither the sheepe of the Lorde Whereby it is many fest that the appeasing and composing of controuersies and heresies was not then thought to be most fitte to be in one bishops hande but in as many as coulde conuemently assemble togither according to the daunger of the heresie which sprang or depe roote which it had taken or was like to take Io. Whitgifte The Bishops agrée not one whit the worse when they haue a superior by whom they may be called togither and put in minde of their office and duetie Neyther doth Cyprian deny this when he affirmeth the other For thoughe the chiefe cause of vnitie is the consente and agreement of the Bishops one with another yet to haue one that shall haue the chiefe care thereof must néedes be a great helpe thervnto euen as it is in other societies For if the Bishops were deuided among themselues at variance and had no superiour who should compounde the controuersies Our Archbishops doe not take vpon them neyther can they to decide any controuersie Howe farre our Archbishops deale in controuersies in doctrine and religion of their owne authoritie but therein doe they deale eyther according to the lawes of the Churche prouided for that purpose or else expecte a newe Parliament or Synode Neyther doth any Bishop in his Dioces otherwise meddle in suche matters than by the common consent of the Churche is appoynted vnto him and yet it was neuer otherwise taught by any but that a Bishop in hys owne Diocesse or an Archebishop in his Prouince mighte vse persuasions to ende controuersies and execute the lawes prouided for the same other kinde of deciding controuersies by any priuate authoritie I knowe none in this Church of Englande Wherfore al these allegations be but in vayne for surely not in Cyprians time was the determining of suche controuersies committed to the Pastor and Seigniorie of euery Parishe neyther doth Cyprian make mention of any suche matter if he did yet for gouernment the diuersitie of the time and state of the Church is to be considered Tract 2. 3. as I haue before noted Chap. 3. the. 13. Diuision T. C. Pag. 77. Sect. 4. And that there was in his time no such authoritie giuen as that any one might remoue the causes or controuersies which rose as now we see there is when the Bishop of the Di es taketh the matters in controuersie which rise in any Church within his Dioces from the minister Elders to whom the decision perteyneth and as when the archebishop taketh it away from the Bishop it may appeare in the same thirde Epistle of the first booke where he sayth after this sort It is ordeyned and it is equall and right that euery mans cause should be there heard where the fault was committed And a little after he sayth It is meete to handle the matter there where they maye haue both accusers and witnesses of the faulte whiche although it be spoken of them whiche fled out of Affrike vnto Rome yet the reason is generall and dothe aswell serue agaynst these ecclesiasticall persons whych wyll take vnto them the deciding of those controuersies that were done a hundred myle of them Io. Whitgifte Cyprian as I sayd speaketh not one worde of your Seigniorie in that place by you alleages he speaketh of the seueral Prouince ▪ 〈◊〉 Dioces of euery bishop would haue euery matter ended in that Prouince 〈◊〉 Diocesse where it is cōmitted therfore he speaketh there of suche as fled out of Affrica into Italie to haue their matters heard so that this place is soluted by your owne selfe It is méete that the matter should be there handled where there may be had bothe accusers witnesses And that was one of the reasons that the Councel of Affrica sed agaynst the Bishop of Rome clayming interest in hearing appeales from thence But there is no Prouince in Englande so large but that both the accusers and witnesses may be brought into any parte of it from any other parte This reason of yours maye serue better agaynst Westminster hall which is but one place to serue the whole Realme for deciding of controuersies and yet I thinke it very necessarie ▪ You may not wrest that to your purpose or proof of Seigniorie or authoritie therof whiche Cyprian speaketh of diuers Prouinces yea diuers Countreys and Nations This is no good reason Cyprian mislyked the translating of causes from Affrica to Rome Ergo there maye be no causes remoued from Northampton to London Chap. 3. the. 13. Diuision T. C. Page 77. Sect. 5. And whereas M. Doctor in bothe places of Cyprian seemeth to stande much vpon the words one Bishop and priest the reason thereof dothe appeare in another place of Cyprian moste manyfestly L 3. epi. 13 and that it maketh no more to proue that there ought to be one archebishop ouer a whole prouince than to say that there ought to be but one husbande proueth that therefore there should be but one husbande in euery countrey or prouince whiche shoulde see that all the rest of the husbands do their duties to their wiues For this was the case a Nouatian heretike beeing condemned cast out of the Churches of Affrica by the consent of the Bishops not able by embassage sent to them to obteyne to be receyued to their cōmunion fellowship agayne oeth afterwards to Rome and beeing likewise there repelled in time getteth himselfe by certayne which fauoured his heresie to be chosen Bishop there at Rome Cornelius beeing the Bishop or pastor of those which were there godly minded whervpon it commeth that Cyprian vrgeth one Bishop one priest in the church bicause at Rome there was two wherof one was a wolfe
such proportion of antiquitie for your Pope to be cheefe head of the whole Churche as is to be shewed for Archbishops to be the chiefe Bishops in their owne prouinces c. Hitherto M. Nowell I marueyle that you will ioyne with the Papistes in so grosse a reason Chap. 3. the. 32. Diuision T. C. Pag. 82 Sect. 1. If you say that the Archbishop of England hath his authoritie graunted of the Prince the Pope of Rome will say that Constantine or Phocas which was Emperour of al Christendome did graunt him his authoritie ouer all Churches But you will say that is a lie but the Pope will set as good a face and make as great a shew therein as you do in diuerse poyntes here But admit it to be yet I say further that it may come to passe and it hath bene that there may be one Christian Cesar ouer all the realmes which haue Churches What if he then will giue that authoritie to one ouer all that one king graunteth in his lande may any man accept and take at his handes such authoritie and if it be not lawfull for him to take that authoritie tell me what fault you can finde in him which may not be founde in them Io. Whitgifte The Pope doth chalenge muche of his temporalties from Constantinus and Phocas but his supremacie and iurisdiction ouer all Churches he claymeth from Peter and from Christe wherein his clayme is more intollerable being most false and his iurisdiction more vsurped beyng wrongfully chalenged you erre therefore in that oynt greatly The Archbishop doth exercise his iurisdiction vnder the Prince and by the Princes authoritie For the Prince hauing the supreme gouernment of the realme in all causes and ouer all persons as she doth exercise the one by the Lorde Chancellor so doth she the other by the Archbishops Your supposition of one Cesar ouer all realmes that haue Churches is but supposed and therfore of no weight but admit it were true yet is there not the like reason for one Archbishop to be ouer all those Churches and ouer one prouince the reasons I haue alleaged before out of M. Caluine other neither is there any man not wilfully blinded or papistically affected that seeth not what great diuersitie there is betwixt one prouince and many kingdomes the gouernment of the one and the gouernment of the other Si vnus duodecim bominibus praefuit an propterea sequetur vnum debere Inst. cap. 8. centum millibus hominum praefici If one was ouer twelue men shall it therefore follow that one may be appoynted ouer an hundred thousand men Sayth M. Caluine Chap. 3. the. 33. Diuision T. C. Pag. 82. Sect. 2. It will be sayd that no one is able to do the office of a Bishop vnto all the whole Church neyther is there any one able to do the office of a byshop to the whole Churche of England for when those which haue bene most excellent in knowledge and wisdome and most ready and quicke in doing and dispatching matters being alwayes present haue founde ynough to do to rule and gouerne one seuerall congregation what is he which absent is able to discharge his duetie toward so many thousand churches And if you take exception that although they be absent yet they may do by vnder ministers as Archdeacons Ehauncellors Officials Commissaries and such other kinde of people what do you else say than the Pope which sayeth that by his Cardinalles Archbishops and Legates and other such lyke he doth all things For with their handes he ruleth all and by their feete he is present euery where and with their eyes he seeth what is done in all places Let them take heede therefore least if they haue a common defense with the Pope that they be not also ioyned nearer with him in the cause than peraduenture they be aware of (a) Who can beleue you mean good fayth ▪ Truly it is agaynst my will that I am constrayned to make such comparisons not that I thinke there is so great diuersitie betweene the Popedome and the Archbyshopricke but bycause there being great resemblance betwene them I meane hauing regard to the bare functiōs without respecting the doctrine good or bad which they vphold that I say there being great resemblance betwene them there is yet as I am persuaded great difference betwene the persons that execute them The which good opinion conceyued of them I do most humbly beseech them by the glorie of God by the libertie of the Churche purchased by the precious bloud of our sauiour Christe and by their owne saluation that they would not deceyue by reteyning so harde such excessiue and vniust dominion ouer the Church of the liuing God Io. Whitgifte But one man may do the office of an Archbishop in one prouince euery seuerall diocesse whereof hath a Bishop And one man may do the office of a Bishop in one diocesse euery seuerall parishe whereof hath a seuerall Pastor The Archbishop hath a generall charge ouer the prouince to sée that vnitie be kept among the Bishops and that the Bishops do their duties according to the lawes and order of the Churche or else to sée them reformed according to the sayd lawes orders if they shall be cōplayned of to haue neglected the same The lyke care haue the Bishops ouer the seuerall Pastors of their diocesse and other persons Neyther doth their office consiste in preaching onely but in gouerning also in the respect whereof they are ouer aboue the rest This office of gouernment may be well executed in one prouince so much and so far as by the lawes is required and as is cōuenient for the state of the Church but it could not be so ouer all Christendome It may be that some Pastors hauing small charges and busie heades may finde and procure moe matters and controuersies than eyther they be able or willing to compound such busie Pastors there be in England but their vnquietnesse or lacke of abilitie to dispatch those controuersies which they themselues are the authors and causes of doth not proue but that eyther the Archbishop or Bishop may do those things sufficiently and well that do apperteyne to their office and calling So much may they do by vnder ministers as Archdeacons Chauncellors c. as by the rules of the Churche are permitted vnto them and may be conuenient for the time and persons But the office of preaching of ordeyning ministers of suppressing heresies and schismes with such lyke they do not commit vnto them but execute them themselues the which bycause they cannot do throughout all Churches as they may in one Prouince therefore your reason is no reason Moreouer a Bishop of one diocesse or prouince may haue conference with his Archdeacons and Chauncellor and be priuie to all and singular their doings So cannot the Pope with his Cardinalles Archbyshops and Legates c. dispersed thorough out whole Christendome And therefore an Archbishop or Bishop may
of a mayster which is farre otherwise here (*) So is the condition of a good seruant vnder a good master muche better than the condition of an vnruly sonne vnder a wise father For the condition of many seruaunts vnder their maysters is much more free than the condition of a Minister vnder his Bishop And afterwarde he sheweth wherein that authoritie or dignitie of the Bishop ouer the Minister lyeth that is in exhorting of him in chyding of him ▪ as he doth the lay people and yet he will haue also the Minister although not with suche authoritie after a modest sort to do the same vnto the Bishop And so he concludeth that they reteyne these orders notwithstanding the Anabaptistes Nowe let the reader iudge whether Hemingius be truely or faythfully alledged or no or whether Hemingius do say that they haue in their Church Archbishoppes Primates Metropolitanes Archdeacons or whether the Byshoppes in the Churches of Denmarke are any thing like ours For I 〈◊〉 omitte that he speaketh there agaynst all pompe in the Ministerie all worldly superioritie or ghnesse bycause I * And therefore you cu 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 sentences loue not to wryte out whole pages as M. Doctor doth out of other mens wrytings to helpe to make vp a booke Io. Whitgifte Hemin in that very place quoted in your margēt hath first these words Praeterea cū hic c tus c. Furthermore seing this society is ruled by the word of god there are in it two sorts of men that is to say the preachers of the worde and their hearers which do reuerence and Hemingius alloweth distinction of degrees in the ministerie loue one another as fathers and children But in the Ministers there is great diuersitie for although the authoritie of all Ministers in respect of spirituall regiment is all one for of externall discipline shall be spoken in the proper place yet there are diuerse orders and degrees of honour and dignitie and that partly by the worde of God partly by the approbation and allowance of the Church Where first he alloweth this distinction which you so greatly mislyke that all Ministers be equall touching spirituall iurisdiction that is their ministerie but not concerning externall discipline then doth he allowe degrées of dignitie and superioritie among the Clergie the which after that he hath prooued by the Scripture as namely the. 4. to the Ephesians and by the examples of Paule Hemingius acknowledgeth Patriarches in the primitiue Churche The office of Patriaches in the primatiue Church Timothie and Titus he procéedeth and goeth on forwarde and sayth Ecclesia c. The Church to whome the Lorde hath giuen power vnto edification hath ordeyned an order of ministeries for hir profite that all things might be rightly ordeyned for the reedifying of the bodie of Christ. Hereof the Primitiue Church following the tymes of the Apostles did appoynt some Patriarkes whose office it was to prouide that the Byshoppes of euerie 〈◊〉 shoulde be rightly ordeyned and elected that the Bishops shoulde doe their duetie truely and that the Clergie and people shoulde obey them in those things that perteyned to the Lorde it appoynted also Chorepiscopos that is coadiutors of Bishoppes whome we nowe call Prouostes some Pastors and Catechistes This was the ordination of the Primitiue Church Wherein he plainly declareth these degrées that I speake of for vnder the name of Patriarkes it is euident that he comprehendeth Archbyshops or Metropolitanes to haue bene in the Primitiue Church immediately after the Apostles tyme and in the purest time of the Church than the which what can be spoken more directly for my purpose whose chiefe intent is to proue the antiquitie of these names and offices After this he sheweth the abuses of these offices in the corruption of doctrine vnder the Pope and he doth not onely name Archbishops but Bishops also Curates and other and therefore the note in your margent is but a note of a speciall spyte agaynst the Archbishops In the end speaking of Bishops Pastors and Doctors he sayth thus Inter hos ministros c. Amongst these ministers also our Churche acknowledgeth degrees To take away degrees is barbarousnes and orders of dignitie for the diuersitie of giftes the greatnesse of labour and the worthinesse of their calling and iudgeth it to be barbarous to will to take this order out of the Church It iudgeth that other Ministers ought to obey their Bishops in all things that tend Ministers subiect to Bishops to the edification of the Church according to the worde of God and the profitable order of the Church It iudgeth that the Bishops haue authoritie ouer the other ministers of the Church not such as is of masters but of fathers Wherby he acknowledgeth distinction of degrées and superioritie among Ministers and the iurisdiction of Bishops ouer other Ministers After all this he concludeth with these wordes conteyned in mine answere Nowe let the reader iudge whether I haue otherwise reported of Himingius than he himselfe in that Chapter affirmeth and whether he consent vnto me that woulde haue distinction of degrées among the Ministers or to you that would haue an equalitie which he calleth an Anabaptisticall and barbarous confusion Touching your notes gathered out of him I will briefly answere first in the exposition of the. 22. of Luke he is not agaynst me for I would not haue Archbishops or Bishops c. to take from Kings their rule and dominion as doth the Pope neyther woulde I haue them to reigne ouer the people as Kings and Princes do And I doe not thinke but that the authoritie and superioritie that they haue is a ministerie for the quietnesse of the Church and the commoditie of other and yet a gouernment to for the Apostle sayth ad Hebr. 13. Obedite his qui praesunt vobis Obey them that Heb. 13. beare rule ouer you c. Hemingius in that place especially dealeth agaynst the two swordes of the Bishop of Rome and his excessiue pompe For the kinde of authoritie that the Bishop hath ouer the Ministers that it should What kind of authoritie the Bishos exercise be of a father and not of a master I agrée with him and I knowe that all you speake to the contrarie in the gouernment of this Churche is most vntrue For vndoubtedly if they haue offended in any thing it is in to much lenitie whiche is a fault euen in a father The authoritie that Hemingius giueth to the ciuill Magistrate we acknowledge with him to be moste due and I would to God you also dyd in heart and mouthe confesse the same Thus you sée that Hemingius and we agrée and that there is nothing ascribed vnto him whiche is not playnely to be founde in him Chap. 3. the. 73. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 75. Lin. 11. Sect. 1. Wherefore thus I conclude with the very wordes of that worthy M. Foxe ▪ man who hathe so well deserued
of this Churche of Englande Master Foxe In the ecclesiasticall estate vve take not avvay the distinction of ordinarie degrees suche as by the Scripture be appoynted or by the Primitiue Churche allovved as Patriarkes or Archebishops Bishops ministers and deacons for of these foure vve especially reade as chief in vvhich foure degrees as vvegraunt diuersitie of office so vve admit in the same also diuersitie of dignitie neyther denying that vvhich is due to eache degree neyther yet maynteyning the ambition of any singular person For as vve giue to the minister place aboue the Deacon to the Bishop aboue the minister to the Archbishop aboue the Bishop so vve see no cause of inequalitie vvhy one minister should be aboue another minister one Bishop in his degree aboue another Bishop to deale in his dioces or an Archbishop aboue an other Archbishop and this is to keepe an order duely and truely in the Church according to the true nature and definitiō of order by the authoritie of Augustine lib. de Ciui Ordo est parium dispariumque rerum sua cuique loca tribuens dispositio Hitherto M. Foxe Nowe let the indifferent Reader iudge whether these offices be straunge and vnheard of in the Church of Christ or no. T. C. Pag. 90. Sect. vlt. M. Doctor closeth vp this matter with M. Foxe but eyther for feare that the place shoulde be founde that there might be answere or for feare that M. Foxe shoulde giue me the solution which hath giuen you the obiecion he would neyther quote the place of the booke nor the booke it selfe he hauing written diuers You can not speake so muche good of M. Foxe whiche I wyll not wyllingly subscribe vnto and if it be any declaration of good wyll and of honor that one beareth to another to reade that which he writeth I thinke (*) I maruel 〈◊〉 place 〈◊〉 cape so 〈◊〉 a r ader I haue read more of him than you For I haue read ouer his booke of Martyrs and so I think dyd neuer you for if you had read so diligently in M. Foxe as you haue beene hasty to snatche at this place he woulde haue taughte Pag. 78. of the booke of Actes you the forgery of these Epistles whereout you fetche your authorities and woulde haue shewed you that the distinguishing of the orders of Metropolitanes Bishops and other degrees whiche you say sometimes had their beginnings in the Apostles tymes sometimes you can not tell when were not in Higinus tyme whyche was 180. yeares after Christe I (a) A suspicious head perceyue you feare M. Foxe is an enimie vnto your Archbishop and primate and therfore it seemeth you went about to corrupte him with his prayse and to seeke to drawe him if it were possible vnt the Archbishop and if not yet at the least that he would be no enimie if he woulde not nor coulde not be his friend You make me suspect that your prayse is not harty but pretended bicause you doe so often and so bitterly speake agaynst all those that wyll not receyue the cappe and surplesse and other ceremonies whereof M. Foxe declareth his great misliking For answere vnto the place bicause I remember it not nor meane not to reade ouer the whole booke to seeke it I say first as I sayde before that there may be somethyng before or after whych may giue the solution to this plac especially seeing M. Foxe in another place page 96. prouing the Epistles of Stephanus to be counterfeyt he vseth this reason because the fyft canon of the sayd Epistles solemnly entreateth of the difference betweene Primates Metropolitanes and Archbishops which distinction sayth he of titles and degrees sauour more of ambition than persecution Moreouer I saye that M. Foxe wryting a storie dothe take greater payne and looketh more diligently to declare what is done and in what tyme and by whome than howe iustly or bniustly howe conueniently or inconueniently it is done Last of all if any thing be spoken there to the hinderance of the sinceritie of the Gospell I am well assured that M. Foxe whyche hathe traueled so muche and so profitably to that ende will not haue hys authoritie or name therein to bryng any preiudice Nowe wyll I also ioyne wyth you and leaue it to the iudgemente of the indifferent Reader howe well out of the Scriptures Councels wryters olde and newe you haue proued eyther the lawfulnesse at all of the names of Archbishops Patriarkes Archdeacons Primates or of the lawfulnesse of the office of them and of Bishops which be in our times Io. Whitgifte If you had so diligently read M. Foxe his booke of Martyrs as you boast and brag that you haue done then could not this place haue béene so straunge vnto you for it is in the 20. page of his first tome where he hath an whole treatise touching the supremacie of the Bishop of Rome and speaketh of this matter at large The words be his own and expresse his owne iudgement of these degrées offices in this Church of Englande It had béene some token of modestie so to haue commended your selfe and your owne reading that you had not depraued any other mans But to cōmend your selfe and to detract from an other is eyther arrogant foolishnesse or foolishs arrogancie I can bring foorth good testimonies of my reading of these bookes thoughe I make no vragge thereof or vayne comparisons I haue alleaged none of these Epistles other wyse than M. Foxe him selfe hathe alleaged them M. Foxe hathe shewed him selfe in the place by me cited out of his booke to be no 〈◊〉 eyther to Archbishop Priuate or Bishop for I am sure he speaketh as he thinketh He is not a man like to be corrupted with prayse and therefore in so saying you doe vs bothe great iniurie You may not iudge my heart I thinke of M. Foxe as of one that I loue and reuerence I will not vtter all that I could least I should séeme to flatter There is nothing that goeth eyther before that place or followeth after it that can procure any other sense to his wordes than that in the which I haue set them down I doe not alleage M. Foxe for the originall of these names and offices but for the allowance of them These words that I haue recited are not spoken in the waye of any hystorie but of the order of gouernment of this Church which he alloweth and I dare saye for him that he hathe héereinspoken nothing whiche he thinketh maye hurte the 〈◊〉 of the Gospell And I am right well content to let the godly Reader iudge of bothe our proofes ¶ The defense of the answere of Master Iewell concerning Archbishops c. agaynst the vnreuerende Replie of T. C. Chap. 4. the first Diuision T. C. Pag ▪ 91. Sect. 1. And for as much as I haue purposed to answere in one place that which is scattered in diuers I 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 halfe a sheete of 〈◊〉 ▪ which is annexed of
collected and approued If your particular reasons be no better a small confutation will serue Chap. 1. the. 11. Diuision T. C. Pag. 104. Sect. 1. Furthermore as the wisedome of God hath thought it the best way to keepe his people from infection of idolatrie to make them most vnlike the idolaters so hath the same wisedome of God thought good that to keepe his people in the vnitie of the truth there is no better way than that they should be most like one to another and that as much as possibly may be they should haue all the same ceremonies And therefore Sainct Paule to establish this order in the Churche of Corinth 1. Cor. 16. that they shoulde make their gat erings for the poore vpon the firste day of the Sabboth which is our Sunday alleadgeth this for a reason that he had so ordeyned in other Churches so th t as children of one father and scruantes of one family he will haue all the Churches not onely haue one dyet in that they haue one word but also weare as it were one liuerie in vsing the same ceremonies Io. Whitgifte You take vpon you to tell what the wisedome of God is withoute any warrante of gods word which is presumptiō I told you before that in outward shew and orme the Israelites had many things like vnto the Gentiles which cannot be denyed Unitie of Ceremonies is to be wished in all Churches though it be not so necessary for from the beginning there hath bin therein great varietie but s eing it is a thing so greatly to be desired why are you an occasion of the contrary why do you not submit your sel e to the Church that vnitie in all things may be obserued Chap. 1. the. 12. Diuision T. C. Pag. 104. Sect. 2. This rule did the great Councell of Nice follow when it ordeyned that where certaine at the Con. Nic. can 20. feast of Pentecost did pray kneeling that they should pray standing the reason whereof is added which is that one custome ought to be kept through out a the Churches It is true that the diuersitie of ceremonies ought not to cause the Churches to dissent one with another but yet it maketh much to the auoiding of dissention that there be amongst them an vnitie not only in doctrine but also in ceremonies Io. Whitgifte This is to be wished throughout the whole Church of Christ if it were possible but as i neuer was hitherto so will it not be as long as this 〈◊〉 lasteth and least it should be in this particular Church of Englande Sathan hathe stirred vp instruments to procure the contrarie wherfore in these words as I thinke you condemne your selfe and all other dis urbers of the Church for external rites and ceremonies Chap. 1. the. 13. Diuision T. C. Pag. 104. Sect. 2. Nowe we see playnly that as the forme of our seruice and Lyturgy commeth to neare that of the 〈◊〉 so 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 farr different from that of other Churches reformed and therefore in both these respects to be amended Io. Whitgifte From what reformed Church doth it so far differ ▪ or to which reformed Churche would you haue it framed or why should not other reformed Churches as well frame them selues vnto vs for we are as well assured of our doctrine and haue as good grounds and reasons for our doing as they haue except you will bring in a newe Rome appoynt vnto vs an other head Church and crea e a newe Pope by whom we must be in all things directed and according to whose vsage we must rame our selues You knowe what M. Caluine sayth in the argument vpon the Epistle to the Galatians Calu. in argu in Epi. ad Gal. speaking of those that came from Ierusalem to other Churches Many were puffed vp sayth he with vaine glory bicause they were familiar with the Apostles or at the least were instructed in their schole Therfore nothing pleased them but that which they had seene at Ierusalem all other rites that were not there vsed they did not only refuse but A 〈◊〉 mischiefe boldly condemne Such a kinde of frovvardnesse is a most pestilent mischiefe vvhen as vve vvill haue the maner of on Church to be in place of an vniuersall lavve But this ariseth of a preposterous zeale wherby we are so affected towards Prepostrou zeale one master or place that without iudgement or 〈◊〉 we would binde all men and places vnto the opinion of one ma and vnto the 〈◊〉 of one place as vnto a common 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Idē in 15. rule Albeit there is alwayes mixed ambition yea rather alwayes too muche frowardnesse is ambitious The like saying he hath vpon the. 15. of the Actes Luke dothe not expresse by what affection these va lets were moued yet is it very like that a preposterous zeale was the cause that they set themselues agaynst Paule and Barnabas for there are frowarde Frowarde wittes wittes whome nothing but their owne can please They had seene at Ierusalem circumcision and other rites of the lawe to be obserued and whether soeuer they come they can abide no newe thing or diuers As if the example of one Churche dyd bynde all other Churches as vvith a certayn 〈◊〉 But althoughe suche men are led Ambition with a preposterous zeale to more tumults yet inwardly their ambition moueth them and a certayne kinde of contumacie pricketh them forwarde In the meane time Sa han hath that which he desireth that the mindes of the godly beeing darkned with the smoke and mists that he casteth can scant discerne blacke from white Therefore this mischiefe is first to be auoyded that none prescribe vnto other a lavve of their custome least the example of one Church be preiudiciall to the cōmon rule Then an other A necessari caution caution must be added least the estimation of mens persons do eyther hinder or obscure the searche and inquirie of the matter and cause For if Sathan do transforme himselfe into an Angell of light and if he oftentimes vsurpe with wicked 〈◊〉 the holy name of God what maruel is it if through the same wickednesse he delude with the names of godly mē M. Gualter also vpon these words 1. Cor. 14. An à vobis ser o Dei profectus est writeth Gualter i 1. Cor. 14. thus VVho can thinke their insolencie to be tollerable that vsurpe authoritie ouer all Churches and wil haue them seruilely to be subiect vnto them Therfore that which Paule here presently fayth to the Corinthians the selfesame may at this day with better right be spoken to the Romish Cleargie which will haue all men subiect to their lawes and say that it is necessary vnto saluation that all soules should be subiect to the Bishop of Rome Thes things may also be applyed agaynst those whiche compell euery man to sweare vnto the opinion of their master as though it were sinne neuer so little to disagree from those things which
authoritie he woulde be loth to reiecte I am sure least he shoulde lose the opinion of his studiousnesse of the olde writers which he hunteth so diligently after in this booke wherof he maketh the authors of the Admonitiō so great contemners And it is not hard to shew the same in twentie places more as in the tenth of S. Math. and S. Luke where as there are diuers things not to be followed of the ministers now other things indifferent to be followed so are there also other things that be as well commaunded to all the ministers that nowe are as they were then eyther to the. 12. or 70. disciples Io. Whitgifte And of those circumstances wherof there is no comm̄aundement howe proue you whiche be indifferent whych be vnlawful or not conueniēt to be followed which necessary why is it not as necessarie by this example of Iohn that they shoulde be baptized in Ioroane or that they shoulde confesse their synnes before they be baptized as it is that they shoulde bée publikely baptised If you take vppon you to interprete without authoritie and grounde ofscripture it is méete that you should shew verie good and substanciall reason I demaunde the lyke touching the places alleadged out of the Acts where you reteyn what you list refuse what you list alter as you list as though you were lorde ouer the Scripture and had omnia iura tam diuina quà m humana in scrinio pectoris all lawes as wel diuine as humane in the coffer of your breast lyke to the Pope But to these places of the Actes I haue answered in their due place Your s ffes make not your cause one whit the better Of twentie places you recite not one And of diuers things some indifferent some not to be followed other some comaunded to all ministers spoken to the twelue or scuentie disciples in the. 10. of Matthew and Luke you name none speaking without ground or reason is but pratling I knowe that in one action there be diuers circumstances of diuers conditions and natures but if any of them be necessarie at all tymes to be obseiued the Necessarie cir cumstāces are commaunded same is conteyned in some commaundement in the Scriptures and therfore well sayth Zuinglius that an argument à facto ad ius is then strong when as we are able to shewe that that whiche is doone is done according to some rule or commaundement Now if you can shew me either rule or commaundement in scripture that vppon no occasion we may preache or baptise in priuate families I yelde vnto you What examples doe proue without commaundement But if you can not this doe your examples proue what was then done and what in the lyke cause may be doone nowe but they make not any generall and perpetuall rule Nowe touchyng these and suche lyke circumstances in my opinion M Zuinglius in his booke de baptismo maketh a full resolution which may satisfye any reasonable Zuinglius man His wordes be these There is here three errours about circumstances that is the elementes of the worlde The first is of the tyme for they thoughte that baptisme was not rightly administred except it were in the fyrst day for the tyme is of no greate weight so that we take diligent heed of this that none rashly or negligently differre it longer than is conuenient for by this occasion it may come to passe that the baptisme of children might be taken away An other errour is touching the circūstance of the person for they thought that baptisme could not be administred of no other than of a priest when as notwithstanding euery man may minister it euen a woman if necessitie require the thirde errour is in the circumstance of the place bicause it is not necessarie that the insant shoulde only be baptized in the Churche Chap. 4. the. 3. Diuision Ansvvero to the Admonition Pag. 92. Sect. 3. 4. Baptisme was ministred in Cornelius house Actes 10. The place is not of the substance of the sacramentes To the. 1. Cor. II. it is answered before Surely this church of Englande Baptisme an house dothe not permit the sacramentes to be ministred in priuate places except there be a congregation and then not vsually but only in certaine cases T. C. Pag. 112. Sect. 1. An other reason he addeth there that S. Peter baptized in Cornelius house But M. Doctor maketh not the best choyse of his arguments For S. Paules baptizing in the house of the Iayler had bene more fit for him for vnto his place it may be easyly answered that Cornelius hauing so greate a familie as it is lyke he had and besydes that dyuers souldiours vnderneathe him and further his frendes and his acquayntance whiche he had called had a competente number and as many as would make a congregation and as could co mmodiously be preached vnto in one place But the answere to bothe these examples and other such lyke as that S. Paule baptized in the house of Stephana is easy For there being persecutions at that tyme so that it was not safe neyther for the minister nor for the people to be seene it was meete that they shoulde doe it in houses whiche otherwyse they would haue done in open places and then those houses whiche receyue the congregation are not as I haue shewed for the time to be counted priuate houses and further in places where the gospell hath not bene receyued nor no churche gathered but one onely householde embracing the Gospel I say in suche a case and especially in the tyme of persecution where shoulde the Ministers preache or minister the Sacramentes more conueniently than in that house where those professours of the gospell be nowe to drawe this into our churches which may safely come into open places and where the churche and congregation standeth of diuers houscholdes is a token of greate want of iudgement in shuffelyng those things together whyche for the great diuersitie of their natures will not be myngled Io. Whitgifte The example of Peters baptizing in Cornelius house is sufficient to proue that then it was lawful to baptize in priuate families the example of Paul baptizyng the iaylour and his familie proueth the same But it ministreth a more readie answere to a quareller bicause Paul then being prisoner had not such libertie to make cheise of his place as Peter had But they are both verie fit examples for my purpose the bignesse of Cornelius familie or the smalnesse is not materiall to this question for we speake of the place not of the persons And whereas you say that in Cornelius house there was a competent number and as many as would make a congregation I answer that so it is with vs when baptisme is ministred in priuate families for wheresoeuer Math. 18 two or three be gathered together in the name of Christ there is a congregation To your seconde answere of the difference of tyme bicause that was in tyme of
persecution c. I say that as persecution was then a cause why baptisme as vsually mistred in priuate houses so necessitie is now y t cause why the same is ministred some tymes in priuate families Neither doe I mayntein or allow the administring of the sacraments in priuate families to be vsual or without vrgent cause but only vpon extreme necessitie of sicknesse peril of death such like In which cases as neuer any lerned man misliked ministring of the sacraments in such places so are not you able to shew either scripture doctor or reson to y t coÌ„trary whatsoeuer you say of y e tune of persecutioÌ„ touching y e matter y t same may be said of the time of necessitie also But here I would haue the Reader to note y t you are now driuen to confesse a difference in the Churche betwixte the tyme of persecution and the tyme of prosperitie and that to be conuenient in the one which is not conuenient for the other whiche distinction and diuersitie of tymes you would not before acknowledge to make any difference in the election of ministers and gouernment of the Churche and yet the case is all one Chap. 4. the. 4. Diuision Admonition They should fyrst proue that priuate CoÌ„munion c. are agreeable to the written word of god Answere to the Admonition Pag. 152. Sect. 2. If you meane by priuate Communion the Communion ministred to Of the communion ministred in priuate places one alone there is no such allowed in the boke of Common prayers but if you call it priuate bicause it is ministred sometimes in priuate houses to sicke persons Then haue we the example of Christe who ministred the Supper in a priuate house and inner parlour Mark 14. Luke 22. Math. 26. we haue also the example of the Apostles themselues who did minister the supper in priuate houses especially yf that place be vnderstanded of the supper whiche is in the seconde of the Acts and before alleadged of you to proue that common and vsuall bread ought to be in the Supper Likewise of the primitiue church as appeareth in the seconde apologie of Iustinus Martyr Tertull. de Corona militis and others T. C. Page 112. Sect. 2. And in the page 152. he bringeth other reasons to proue that the Sacramentes may be ministred in a priuate house wherof the fyrste is that our Sauiour Christe celebrated his Supper in a priuate house and in an inner parlour the reason whereof is easyly to be knowne for the lawe of God ordeyned that euery housholder in his house shoulde eate the passouer with his owne familie If it were so great as that they myght well eate vp a whole lambe Io. Whitgifte That is a reason why Christe did eate the passouer in a priuate house but it is no reason why he did celebrate his Supper there in lyke maner Wherefore my reason holdeth as yet Chap. 4. the. 5. Diuision T. C. Pag. 112. Sect. 3. Our sauiour Christ therfore with his housholde obserueth this law and for bicause he woulde declare that the passouer had his ende and that his holy Sacrament should come in place therof he doth foorthwith celebrate his supper in the same place which if he had not done neither could he haue done it at al the houre of his apprehension then approching neyther should it so lyuely haue appeared that eyther the passouer was abolished or that the Supper came in place of it beeyng celebrated both at an other tyme and in an other place Io. Whitgifte Our Sauiour Christes example of instituting and ministring his supper in a priuate familie giuing afterwarde no commaundement to the contrarie is a manifest proofe that the place is not of the substance of the sacramente and that vpon occasion it may be ministred in a priuate house You shewe a reason why Chryste at that Unnecessarie proofe tyme and in that place did minister his Supper but you shewe no reason why wée may not in lyke maner vpon necessarie occasion celebrate the Communion in the lyke place Chap. 4. the. 6. diusion T. C. pag. 112. sect vlt. For the celebrating of the Supper in houses in the Apostles tymes and in Iustinus and Tertullians tymes which were tymes of persecution I haue spoken before where also I declared that suche houses for the tyme are not priuate but publike Io. Whitgifte This answere is as fitte for me as it is for you for admit that the Sacraments may be administred in priuate families in the case of necessitie and I aske no mâ—â—â— For if persecution be a necessarie cause why is not sickenesse and perill of dâ—â—th so in lyke maner agayne if a priuate house be no priuate but a publike place when for the feare of persecution the Sacramentes be ministred in it why is it not so lykewise when they be there ministred for extremitie of sickenesse and feare of death the reason is all one and the case of necessitie like and therfore you haue not sayde any thing agaynst me but with me Chap. 4. the. 7. Diuision T. C. Pag. 113. Sect. 1. And these are his reasons wher with he would proue that the sacraments and therfore also the sacrament of Baptisme may be ministred in a priuate house Io. Whitgifte And these reasons haue you confirmed rather than confuted but to the contrarie Circumcision in priuate houses you haue shewed no reason at all and therfore these stand in ful force to the which I might adde that circumcision was celebrated in priuate families as M. Caluine truly gathereth vpon the. 58. verse of the first chapter of Luke which is a better argument to proue that the Sacramentes may be ministred in priuate places than you haue shewed any to the contrarie ¶ The Sacramentes ministred by other than Ministers Chap. 5. The fyrst Diuision Admonition Then by ministers (vv) Mat. 28. 19 1. Cor. 4. 1 only nowe by Midwyues and Deacons equally Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 93. Sect. 2. That then the Sacraments wer ministred only by ministers you Whether any may minister the sacramentes besides the minister alledge the. 28. of Math. which place is answered before Likewise 1. Cor 4. Let a man so think of vs as of the ministers of Christ disposers of the mysteries of God Here is not one word for your purpose except you take mysteries for sacramentes which if you doe you are much What mystâ—ries be deceiued for by the word mysteries here he vnderstandeth the word of God and gospell of Christ as al learned writers do interprete it Io. Whitgifte Nothing answered to the vnapt allegation of the. 1. Cor. 4. Chap. 5. the. 2. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 93. Sect. 2. We reade in the eight of the Actes that Philip a Deacon did baptize Philip deacon baptised Moyses wife 〈◊〉 circumcise wee reade also that Moyses wife did circumcise But where doth this Churche of Englande allowe any woman to baptize or deacon
Churche by publike authoritie established wherfore vntil you shew some particulars this shal be my answere that Spiritus Dei neque est mendax neque mordax The spirite of God is neyther a lyer nor a slaunderer It is but your pleasure thus generally to say That then pastors soughte their flocks now they seeke theirs for it is well knowne that there bee Pastours which seeke their flockes and not theirs Hitherto thanks be vnto God in al this discourse ther is not one peece of false doctrine of any substance ascribed to this Churche of England by these libellers therfore it hath as God will the fyrst note of the true church of Christ that is puritie of doctrine T. C. Pag. 124. Lin. 12. To the next section being the rest of the. 84. page I minde to say nothing hauing before spoken of the faults of the ceremonies and rites which are vsed with vs. Io. Whitgifte The Admonition saith that then nothing was taught but Gods word now Princes pleasures mens deuises popishe ceremonies and Antichristian rites in publike pulpits defended and will neyther you nor they tell vs what those Princes pleasures c. be well it is true y t followeth in that part of my Answer for there is nothing said to the cōtrary Admonition These and a greate many other abuses are in the ministerie remayning which vnlesse they be remoued and the truth broughte in not onely Gods iustice shall be poured foorthe but also Gods Church in this realme shal neuer be builded For if they which seeme to be workinē are no workmen indeede but in name or elfe worke not so diligently and in such order as the workmaster commaundeth it is not only vnlikely that the building shall go forward but altogither impossible that euer it shall be perfited The way therefore to auoid these inconueniences and to reforme these deformities is this Your wisedomes haue to remoue Aduousons Patronages Impropriatiōs and Byshops authoritie clayming to themselues thereby right to ordeyne ministers and to bring in that old and true election which was accustomed to be (q) Act. 1. 26. 6. 2. 3. 14. 13. made by the cōgregation You must displace those ignorant and vnable ministers already placed and in their roomes appoynte suche as both can and wil by Gods assistance (r) 1 ▪ Pet. 5. feede the flocke You must plucke downe and vtterly ouerthrow without hope of restitution the Court of Faculties from whence not only licences to enioy many benefices are obteyned as pluralities Trialities Totquots c. but all thinges for the most part as in the Court of Rome are set on sale licences to marrie to eate flesh in times prohibited 1. Pet. 5. 2. to lie from benefices and charges and a great number beside of such like abhominations Appoint to euery congregation a learned and diligēt preacher ▪ Remoue Homilies Articles iniunctions a prescript order of Seruice made out of the Masse booke Take away the lordship the l ytering the pompe the idlenesse liuings of byshops but yet employ them to such endes as they were in the old Church appoynted for Let a lawfull and a godly scigniorie looke that they preache not quarterly or monethly but continuallie not for filthy lucre sake but of a ready mind So God shall be glorifyed your consciences discharged and the flocke of Christe purchased (s) Acts. 20. 28 with his owne bloud edifyed Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 86. 87. Sect. 1. 2. What these great abuses by you hitherto alleadged be I trust you Discipline necessary do now fully vnderstand surely except such factious libellers suche stirrers vp of schismes such disturbers of the peace of the church such contemners of those that be in authoritie be not onely remoued but repressed God will not only of his iustice punish the magistrates of this Realme for their carelesnesse in this behalfe but also Gods gospell will therein be as much defaced with factions schismes and heresies as euer it was in the Popes time with superstition and idolatrie For surely these men that would be compted such perfect builders Libellers be vnderminers ▪ not builders be but vnderminers and destroyers and instruments of some greedy guttes and lusty toysters who to maynteyne their pride and ioylitie seeke for the spoyle of the Churche and indeede the vtter ouerthrow both of learning and religion For take from Byshops their lands and their authoritie let euery Confusion parish elect their owne minister remoue Homilies Articles Iniunctions appoynt no prescript order of seruice that is to say let there be no order prescribed to any man no law to direct him or controll him but let euery minister do what he list speake what he list alter what he list and so oft as him list to be short let euery minister be King and Pope in his owne parish and exempted from all controlemente of Byshop Magistrate and Prince and you shall haue as many kinds of Religion as there is Parishes as many sects as ministers and a Church miserably torne in peeces with mutabilitie and diuersitie of opinions Do you not see what they shoote at would they not be free from al Anabaptisme feared Ambition in the Admonitors magistracie do they not most ambitiously desire that themselues whiche they condemne in other that is Lordship and superioritie For who thinke you shoulde be chiefe in euery parish and direct the rest Surely euen the minister The Pope neuer required greater authoritie ouer al Christendom than they seke to haue ouer their parish The Pope and his Clergie did neuer more earnestly seeke and desire to be exempted from the iurisdiction of ciuil magistrates than these men do both from ellesiasticall and ciuill Princes nobles and magistrates were neuer brought into greater seruitude bondage than these men seeke to lay vpon them T. C. Pag. 124. Sect. 1. After a number of words without matter sayings without proofes accusations without any grounds or likelihoode of grounds as that they be instruments of greedy gutts nd lusty roysters to maynteyn them in theyr ioylitie whych notwithstanding speake ageynst Patron ges and would haue the liuings of the Church which are idlely and vnprofitably spent for the most p rt applyed to the right vses of the poore and of ministers and schollers and that they would be discharged from ciuill and ecclesiasticall subiection whiche humbly submitting themselues to the Queenes maiestie and all those that are sente of hir would deliuer the Churches and themselues for the Churches sake from the vnla ull dominion of one to the end that they might yeld themselues with their Chruches subiect to the lawfull ecclesiasticall gouernment of those which ▪ God hath appoynted in his word After I ▪ s y a number of such and like accusations mixt with most itter and reprochfull words vnto all which it is sufficient answer that ▪ Quod verbo dictu mest verbo sit negatum ▪ As easily denyed as sayd Io. Whitgifte
word of the office of your Seniors which you distinguish frō a minister of y e word wher doth he giue any such cōmandemēt cōcerning his office Wher doth he prescribe any such for me or kind of gouernmēt if he kéepe silēce in this matter thr ugh y e whole epistle how dare you presume to say that to be cōmanded which is not mentioned to make so much adoe about nothing surely if this kind of gouernmēt had bin so necessary for euer to be bserued S. Paule wold not haue omitted it in this Epistle especially You say that he hath set foorth in that Epistle the office of an elder if by an elder you meane a Bishop or a Pastor it is true If you meane your own elder such as must gouern only neither preach nor minister the sacramēts it is very vntrue and you haue no cōscience in speaking vntruth for he speaketh not one word of that senior or of his office If you reply or obiect that which is written 1. Tim. 5. qui bene praesunt 〈◊〉 c. I answer as I did before that by presbyter in that place he meaneth such as be in the ministerie and no other If he do meane any other yet doth he not describe the office of that Senior neither giueth any precept of his continuāce or rule of any such kind of mēnt therfore cannot be included in that precept which you so greatly amplify for the wordes of the Apostle be these vt serues hoc praeceptum so that you haue laboured much to proue a thing that is not and therefore you haue laboured in vaine Secondly The whole epistle to 〈◊〉 s not that commandement you cannot extend these words of the Apostle to the whole Epistle as though it were gyuen generally of the whole and of euery thing therein contein d for then muste you of necessitie bring in widdowes and their office into the Churche again bicause the Apostle doth not only describe their office in that epistle but also giueth direct precepts of them so doth he not of your Seniors Likewyse his precepte of drinking wine whiche he giueth there also must of necessitie be obserued of all ministers whiche haue the lyke infirmitie These and suche other grosse absurdities must of necessitie followe if you will haue all things in that Epistle necessarily for euer to be obserued and the whole epistle to be that commaundement that the Apostle here enioyneth to Timothie cap. 6. Neyther can I perceiue that any learned interpreter doth referre this commandement Wherevnto that commandement is referred to any other things conteined in this Epistle than to those only that do appertaine to the pastorall office of Timothie and some there be that restrayne it to those things onely which are before spoken of in this 6. chapter especially to y e precept against couetousnes Chrysostome expounding this place sayth thus VVhat is it to kepe the cōmaundement pure Vt neque vitae neque dogmatū gratia aliquid maculae contra as Chrysostome Caluine That neither in respect of lyfe or doctrine thou haue any spot To conclude M. Caluin interpreting it sayth on this sort By this word cōmaundement he signifieth those thinges which he had hitherto spokē of the office of Timothie wherof this is the sum that he shuld shew himself a faithful minister to Christ to the church For what need is there to extēd this to the whole law except peraduenture some m had rather to take this simplye for the function cōmitted vnto him for whē we are appointed ministers of the churche God doth therwith prescribe vnto vs what he would haue vs to do So that seruare mandatum to keepe the comaundement is nothing else but faithfully to execute the office cōmitted vnto him surely I do wholly refer it to the ministerie of Timothie Wherby it is euidēt that vnder this cōmaūdement euery thing in this epistle is not conteined but y t only which doth appertain to y e office of Timothie That which foloweth immaculatus irreprehensibilis according to the most and best interpreters is referred to Timothie not to the cōmaundement cōtrarie to your iudgement wherfore I also conclude that nothing in this Epistle maketh one iote for your Seigniorie Chap. 2. the sixthe Diuision T. C. Pag. 141. Sect vlt. So that we haue not only now the 〈◊〉 of al y e primi iue churches which ought to moue vs if there were no cōmaundement but we haue also a straight cōmandement I say the only exāples ought to moue vs for what way can we s felyer follow thā y e cōmon high way beaten trodē by steps of al y e Apostles of al the churches Things also grounded being preserued by the same meanes by the which they were ingendred why should we think but y t the churches now wil prosper by y e gouernment wherby it first came vp But I say we haue not only the examples of the churches but we haue also commandement straight charge to kepe this office of elders and auncients in the church therfore it is not only rashnesse in leauing the way that the aposties churches by the apostles aduise haue gone but disobedience also to depart from their commaundement to mainteyn defend that we may do so I can almost giue it no gentler name than rebellion Io. Whitgifte Examples of churches ther may be some but not of your kind of Seniors Precept cōmaundemēt for this kind of gouernmēt there is not one in y e whole scripture or any other approued authoritie For I haue before shewed how little y ◠authoritie serue h your purpose y ◠which you would haue vs thinke to be so expresse a cōmaundement Wherfore it is no rebellion to disallow of your order in the tyme of Christian magistrates but it is rebellion to contend for it to the abridging of that authoritie that God hath to Christian Princes committed Chap. 2. the seuenth Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 114. Sect. 2. c. I know y t in the primitiue church they had in euery church certain Seniors to whome the gouernmente of the congregation was committed but that was before there was any Christian Prince or magistrate that openly professed the Gospell and before there was anye Churche by publike authoritie established or vnder Ciuill gouernment I told you before that the diuersitie of tyme and state ▪ of the church requireth diuersitie of gouernment in the same It can not be gouerned in time of prosperitie as it is in time of persecution It may not be gouerned vnder a Christian Prince which doth nourishe and maynteyne it as it may be vnder a Tyrant when it is constrained to 〈◊〉 and seeke corners It can not be gouerned in a w ole realme as it may be in one little citie or towne it cannot be gouerned when it is dispersed through many places as it may be when it
is collected into some one narow and certaine place To be shorte it can not be gouerned when it is ful of hypocrites Papists Atheis s and other wicked persons as when it hath verie fewe or none such as cōmonly it hath not in tyme of persecution when the gold is as it were by fyre tried from the drosse He that according to this diuersitie of the forme state time of the church doth not allow a diuersitie of gouernment doth confound and not edifie I praye you what Seniors could you haue in most parishes in England fit for that office But wise not wilful men haue to consider this God hath giuē the chief gouernment of his church to the christian magistrate who hath to consider what is most conuenient and we must therwith be content so that nothing be done against faithe and the commaundement of God TC Pag. 142. Sect. 1. Nowe I will come to M. Doctors reasons which he hath in the hundreth fourteene and a hundred and fiftene pages where he graunteth that there were elders in euery Churche in times past but saith that it ought not now so to be For saith he the times alter the gouernment and it cannot be gouerned in the time of prosperitie as in the time of persecution vnder a christian prince as vnder a tyrant Thus he sayth but sheweth no reason bringeth no proofe declareth not how nor why prosperitie will not beare the elders as well as persecution neyther why they may not be vnder a godlie prince as well as vnder a tyrant v lesse this be a reason that bycause the godlye prince doth nourish the church as a ciuile Magistrate therfore the Auncients may not nourishe it as ecclesiasticall ouerseers Io. Whitgifte My reason why it may not be gouerned vnder a Christian Prince as it maye The Church may no be gouerned vnder 〈◊〉 stian Prince as 〈◊〉 a tyrant vnder a tyrant is this God hath giuen the chiefe authoritie in the gouernmente of his church to the Christian magistrate which could not so be if your Seignorie might as wel retein their authoritie vnder a Christian Prince and in the time of peace as vnder a tyrant and in the tyme of persecution For tell me I pray you what authoritie ecclesiasticall remayneth to the ciuill Magistrate where this Seignorie is established But that the Reader may vnderstande this not to be my iudgement alone but the iudgement also of famous learned men the practise of w ll reformed churches I thought good in this place before I proceed any further to report the opinions of Musculus and Gualter touchyng this matter Musculus in his common places titulo de Magistratibus affirmeth that notwithstanding in the 〈◊〉 tyme the Musculus churches were ruled by Seniors yet they may not so be vnder christian rulers and Magistrates who haue authoritie not in ciuill matters only but in ecclesiastical also His wordes I haue recited before M. Gualter in his cōmentaries vpon 1. Cor. 5. Supra in the 4. diuision doth at large entreat of this matter whose wordes bicause they haue pith in them and proceede from him which is both learned and godlie and of great experience I will reher e them as I finde them There are also others which although they haue true christian princes and want no lawes wherby licentious maners are corrected yet they say they nede an ecclesiastical senate Gualter in 1. Cor. 5. which might punish euery man and haue authoritie also ouer Princes that it might seclude them fr the Lords supper if they haue giuē any publike offence not to admitte them againe vnto the felowship of the Church but vpon their allowāce after publike satisfactiō And if any man do contrary them in their opinion by and by they crie out vpon him as the enemie of all discipline as one vnwoorthy to haue any place in the Church as though there could no other forme of discipline be appointed but that whiche they haue inuented But they must pardone vs and let them not condemne vs rashly which do dissent from them not without good reason You sée therefore how your Seigniorie and kinde of gouernmente is liked euen of zelous and godly ministers of reformed churches Neyther do I remember that I euer read any authoure that dothe of necessitie require it scripture I know you haue none for it Chap. 2. the. 8. Diuision T. C. Pag. 142 Sect. 2. Nowe seing M. Doctor can shew vs no cause why they may not as well be now as in the time of the Apostles as well vnder a Christian prince s vnder a Tyrant I will shewe him that although they be always necessary yet there is better cause why they should rather be now than in the Apostles times greater necessitie vnder a Christian prince than vnder a tyrant First of all in the Apostles times it is knowne that the gifts of the spirit of wisedome discretion knowledge enduring of trauayle were poured foorth more plentifully then euer they were eyther before or shall be after By reason whereof the Pastors and ministers of the churches that were then were I speake generally and of the estate of the whole Church better furnished with the gifts needefull for their ministerie than are the ministers of these days Whervpon I conclude that if the ayd and assistance of the Pastor by the Elders was thoughte necessary by the Apostles in those times when the ministers were so wel and so richly replenished with such gifts much more is that ayde and assistance meete for the ministers of these days wherein their gifts of discretion knowledge and diligence are not so plentifull For if they whose eye sight was so cleare to perceiue whose hands so nimble to execute had neede for their ayde of other eyes and other handes then the ministers now whose eyes are dimmer and hands heauier than theirs were haue much more neede of this ayde than they had Io. Whitgifte This reason is answered two ways and that briefly The first is bycause there is not at this time in euery congregation so méete men for that office of Seniors as there was then for God hath not now so plentifully poured the giftes of the spirit of wisedome discretion knowledge c. vpon so many in euery congregation according to your owne confession as he did then and therefore nothing so easie to fiad in euery congregation meete men to gouerne ▪ a it was then Secondly the ciuill and Christian The ciuill ma gistrate a better help to the minister than the Seniors Magistrate hath that whole authoritts now that Seniors had thē and much more for he may punish with corporall punishment and so could not they he may compell and coustrayne and so could not they so that the Pastor may be much better ayded and assisted in doing his dutie and in suppressing vice by the authoritie of the Christian Magistrate than he eyther was then or could be now by the
buyers and sellers out of the temple what office did Paule committe to Timothy when he sayde aduersùs Presbyterum c I woulde not haue a mynister to be a warriour or a farmer or a marchant or haue any such like osfice which consisteth in gayne or bodily labour only But why he may not haue suche an office as is profitable to encrease godlinesse and punish vngodlinesse I heare as yet no reason As for the office of an high commissioner it is Ecclesiasticall for they haue to do only in causes Ecclesiasticall T. C. Pag. 170. Sect. 1. And for Elye and Samuell they are extraordinarie examples whiche may thereby appeare for that both these offices first meeting in Melchisedech and afterwarde in Moses were by the commaundement of God seuered when as the Lorde toke from Moses beyng so wise and godly a man the Priesthoode and gaue it to Aaron and to his successors And so for so much as when the Lord would polishe his churche make it famous renoun ed in the world he gaue this order it appeareth that he would haue this to be a perpetuall rule vnto his church And by so much it is the clearer for that the Lorde did not tarie vntill Moses death but tooke the priesthoode away from Moses which was a man as able to execute both as eyther Elye or Samuell Io. Whitgifte It is not certayne whether Moses were euer Priest or no for where it is sayd It is doubtfull whether Moses were priest in the. 99. Bsalme Moses Aaron in sacerdotibus eius the Hebrewe worde is doubtfull and signifieth as well a Prince as a Priest therefore vpon this place it cannot necessarily be concluded that Moses was a Priest Moreouer at that time the chiefe rulers men of greatest authoritie were called Priestes but you neuer redde that Moses offered vp any sacrifices for sinne which was the proper office of the Priest Neyther can you tell vs where he was euer consecrated Priest In déede Harding against the Apologie doth alledge this example at Moses being as he sayeth both a ciuill Magistrate and a Priest to proue that the Pope may be both King and Priest But be it as you say that these two offices were distinguished in Moyses Aaron that the Priests office which consisteth in offering oblations sacrifices was taken from him yet did he kéepe still his former authoritie in gouerning the church and in prescribing to Aaron what he should do euen in matters perteyning to the worship of God so that these two offices I meane ciuill and Ecclesiasticall are not so distinct but that they may both aptly well méete ioyne togither Further more Ciuill and ecclesiasticall offices mette in one you know that howsoeuer the priesthood ciuill Magistracie were deuided in Moses and Aaron yet mette they both togither againe not onely in Elye Samuell but in Es ras Nehemias Mattathias and some other which examples proue that vpon occasion these offices may meete togither in one Person they quite ouerthrow your allegation of Moses Chap. 3. the. 9. Diuision T. C. Pag. 170. Sect. 1. And this may be also easily seene for that in a manner alwayes where there was any good stayde estate of the church these offices were ministred by seueral persons and then mette and were mingled when the estates were very ruinous and miserable A d if this be a good reason to proue that ministers may exercise ciuill offices it is as good a reason to proue that princes may preach and minister the Sacraments For if the ministers may exercise ciuill offices bicause Elye Samuell beyng ministers did so the Princes and iudges may preach the worde and mynister the Sacraments bicause Elye and Samuell being Princes and iudges did so And so we see how M. Doctor going about to desend one confusion bringeth in an other Io. Whitgifte Here you confesse that which hetherto in your whole booke you haue denied and T. C. confesseth the groūd of all these cōtrouersies that which is in deede the whole grounde of the chiefe matters in controuersie that is that the gouernment of the Churche may be diuerse according to the diuersitie of the time and state of the same as in the time of persecution it may be otherwise gouerned than in time of peace otherwise when the state is established than when it is ruynous and in decaye for say you In a manner alwayes where there was any good and stayed estate of the church these offices were ministred by seuerall persons and then mette and were mingled when the estates were very ruynous Thus haue you graunted of your owne accorde that which hitherto you haue so stifly and stoutly denied such is the might force of the truth And yet the church was in good state all Sainuels time and the moste parte of Elyes also for any thing that I can reade to the contrarie I brought in those examples to proue that these offices haue mette togither and The state of y e controuerūe altered by the Replier therefore be not so diuers as you would make them I do not vse them to this ende that I would haue a Priest to be a King you know the state of our question is onely whether Bishops may exercise those ciuill functions of Iusticeship of Peace and such like which the Prince committeth vnto them or no and not whether they may sitte in the Princes throne and take hir Scepter out of hir hande whether she will or no as the Pope doth And therfore whereas you saythat by these exāples of Elye and Samuell I may as well conclude that Princes may preach the worde and minister the sacraments as Priests and ministers execute cruill offices I thinke you do not consider that these ciuill offices be but accidents to the priesthode therefore may well be remoued as they were from Samuell when Saule was chosen King for Samuell kepte his Priesthoode though he lost his ciuill authoritie but the Priesthoode is not so to the cyuill magistrate except he will be ordinarily and lawfully admitted therevnto I thuike that there is no degree of dignitie that maketh a man vnmeete for the ministerie if he be therevnto lawfully called and haue other giftes méete for the same wherefore as it followeth not that a minister in the respect that he is a minister ought to haue a ciuill office but that he may haue one if he be by the ciuill Magistrate therevnto appoynted so it doth not follow that a ciuill Magistrate ought to be a minister of the woorde but that he may be if he be méete and therevnto ordinarily and lawfully called and admitted The Prieste may not take vpon him the office of the ciuill Magistrate vnlesse he be called lawfully vnto it nor the ciuill Magistrate may not take vpon him the office of a Priest vnlesse he be ordinarily therevnto admitted And this is no confusion at all Chap. 3. the. 10. Diuision
doings and therfore they haue corrected these assertiōs in their second edition of the first Admonition on this sorte Then election was made by the elders with the cōmon cōsent of the whole church Surely these men be past shame else woulde they not denie their owne written assertions T. C. Pag. 175. Sect. 6. And whereas he sayth that it is al one to say that the election of the mynister must be made by (*) A manifest 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 you leaue out this worde whole the church to say It must be made by the people it is a great ouersight to make the parte whole all one seing y e people be but one part of the church the mynister and the other gouernours are albeit not the greatest yet the principallest part I graunt that sometimes a parte is taken for the whole and so we do call sometimes the gouernours of the churche the churche and sometimes the people But where the question is of the proprietie of these speaches the Church and the people there all men that haue any iudgement can easily put a difference Io. Whitgifte What I haue sayde how truly you haue reported my wordes how aptly you haue replied to my Answere euen the very simple Reader may easily vnderstand therfore for answers to this I shall only desire him to compare our wordes togither and then it shall easily appeare how you haue falsified my wordes for wheras I gather out of these wordes of y e Admonition Election was made by the common cōsent of the whole Church therfore their collection is true which say that they would haue the mynisters to be called allowed placed by the people you either of purpose or by ouersight which is very vsuall with you haue left out y e worde whole make as though I should say that it is all one to say that the election must be made by the church to say it must be made by the people should confound the people the church the part with the whole which is a manifest vntruth But by y e way it is to be noted y t you séeme to separate the people frō the election of mynisters for you will not haue the worde Church in the Admonition to cōprehend the people else why haue you these words when the question is of the proprietie of these speaches the church and the people and surely it may séeme that this is their meaning bicause in their second edition they say the election was made by the Elders with the common consent of the people so that the election should be made by the Elders and the people only should cōsent to the election which is contrary to the rest of your assertion Ansvvere to certayne Articles c. 4. Lin. 9. They hold that a Bishop at no hande hath authoritie to ordeyne ministers This Article you confesse to be truely gathered but now you make this glosse not alone and yet in their Admonition it is in flat termes that the ordering of mynisters doth at no hand apperteyne to Bishops 6. Lin. 28. They will haue the mynisters at theyr owne pleasure to preach without lycence This is true by your owne cōfessiō for you will haue no other licēce but your calling to the ministerie which must be as you say by the congregation Here you shut out both the Princes licence and the Bishops 7. Lin. 13. fol. 17. Lin. 6. pag. 1. Whatsoeuer is set down in this Article is manifestly affirmed in the Admonitiō your answere to it is friuolous and nothing to the purpose For in the firste parte of the Admonition ▪ Fol. 2. pag. 1. These be the wordes In those dayes knowne by voice learning doctrine now they must be discerned frō other by Popish Antichristian apparell as cap gowne tippet c. And in the second part speaking of the apparell prescribed to ministers they say on this sort There is no order in it but confusion no comelinesse but deformitie no obediēce but disobediēce both against God and the Prince Are you not then ashamed to say that this Article They will haue the mynister discerned from others by no kinde of apparell and the apparell appoynted they terme Antichristian and the apparell appoynted by the Prince disobedience agaynst the Prince is falsified Fol. 4. Lin. 1. Pag. 2. They will haue all Archbishops Bishops Archdeacons c. together with their offices iurisdictions courtes and liuings cleane taken away and with speede remoued You say that this is falsified in parte bicause there is left out Lords grace Iustice of peace and Quorum c. Surely the Article is truly collected in euery poynt and playnely affirmed in the. 2. leafe of the first parte of that Admonition As for your gibing wordes that follow they be but winde I warrāt you the cōfutatiō will abide the light the Author will shew his face which you are ashamed to do 9. Lin. 9. The Article is truly collected looke in the first parte of that Admonition Fol. 2. Pag. 2. Fol. 3. And in the second part of that Admonition Fol. 1. pag. 2. Fol. 5. pag. 1. 17. Lin. 12. The collection is true for their wordes be these They simply as they receyued it from the Lorde we sinfuily mixed with mans inuentions and deuises And therfore you vntruly say that it is falsified 19. Lin. 16. They will haue no Godfathers nor Godmothers you say that this Article is also vtterly falsified what meane you so to forget your sslfe Is it not thus writtē in the first part of y e first Admonitiō o. 3 pa. 2. Godfathers and Godmothers once disallowed after recāted And as for Baptisme it was enough with them if they had water and the partie to be baptised fayth and the mynister to preache the worde and mynister the Sacramentes Nowe we must haue surplesse deuised by Pope Adrian Interrogatories mynistred to the infant Godfathers and Godmothers brought in by Higinus c Howe say you are not Godfathers and Godmothers here disallowed wherefore be they else in this place recyted or why are they here ascribed to Pope Higinus will you now allow any thing in the Church inuented by the Pope In deede in the second edition of this firste Admonition these wordes Godfathers and Godmothers brought in by Higinus be cleane left out as I haue before noted Wherfore eyther you haue not redde the diuersitie of their editions or else you are very impudent 22. Fol 8. in fine I maruell why you say that this collection is falsified Looke Fol. vlt. pag 2. of the first part of the Admonition T. C. Pag. 175. Sect. 6. The rest of those articles are answered in the discourse of the booke Besides that the fanlts which are found with the vntrue gathering of them are not taken away by M. Doctor but only in confident bould asseuerations And if I should say any thing I should but repeat their wordes Io. Whitgifte The iudgement hereof
are comprehended in the confession of the Churches And thus partly vpō those sentences which I haue alledged in this booke and partly vpon these testimonies here set down I leaue to the consideration of all men howe truely and iustly it is sayd that the learned writers of thesetimes one or two only excepted are against vs. Io. Whitgifte Surely it had bene more commendable in mine opinion if you had sette downe the verie wordes of the Authors themselues rather than your own collections pon them for so shoulde their iudgements more plainely haue appear whereas now you frame them as they may best serue for your purpose It is no shame for a man to translate out of other mens workes especially vsing their testimonies but it cannot be voyde of great reproch for any man so to be addicted to his owne persua on that he should so lightly regarde other mens opinions I doubt not but that the Reader will conceiue by these authorities that you haue here collected as chiefe principall and moste euident for the confirmation of your assertions vpon what slender pillers your building standeth For truely so farre as I can gather most of these places make little for your purpose and none of them inforce any such necessitie as you séeme to vrge as it will fall out in the examination of them T. C. 1 That there ought nowe to be the same regiment of the Churche which was in the Apostles time The confession of the Heluetian Tygurin Berne Geneua Polonia Hungarie and Scotlande with others in the 18. chapter speaking of the equalitie of Ministers saith that no mā may iustly forbid to returne to the olde constitution of the Churche of God and to recei e it before the custome of man Io. Whitgifte The confession in that place speaketh not one word of hauing Seniors in euery Parish neither yet of any other Seniors than those that be Ministers of the word and Sacramentes for the whole chapter intreateth of such Moreouer it sayth not that we ought to returne to that old gouernment but that we maye returne so that it is from your purpose and maketh more against you than with you For the question is not whyther we maye returne to that ynde of gouernment or no if it seeme good to the Christian Magistrate to whome God hath now committed the gouernment of the Church but whether the Christian Magistrate ought of necessitie to receiue that kynde of gouernment and no other which this confession doth no where affirme T. C. M. Caluine in his Institutions 4. booke 3. chapter and. 8. section speaking of the auncients which did assist the Pastors in euery Church sayth that experience teacheth that that order was not for one age and that this office of gouernment is necessarie to all ages Io. Whitgifte M. Caluine in that place sheweth what hath bene and what maye be in the Churche but he doth not make that kynde of gouernment so necessarie that it can not be altered His meaning is that that kinde of gouernment is necessarie for all ages bycause in euery age the Churche in one place or other is in persecution but he no where saythe as I remember this kynde of gouernment to be necessarie in all states of the Churche nay he affirmeth the directe contrarie in the same booke the seuenth chapter and. 15. section Where he speaking of the gouernment of the Churche sayth thus Scimus autem politiam pro varietate temporum recipere imò exigere varias mutationes Wee knowe that the gouernment of the Churche according to the diuersitie of times dothe receyue yea require or exacte diuers alterations T. C. And in the. 12. chapter and first section of the same booke saythe as much of Excommunication and other Ecclesiasticall censures Io. Whitgifte M. Caluine sheweth in that place howe necessarie discipline is in the Churche whych is not denyed he speaketh not in that section of any thyng nowe in controuersie T. C. Peter Martyr vpon the thirde to the Romaines teacheth that although the common wealth chaunge hir gouernment yet the Church alwayes keepeth hirs stil. Io. Whitgifte Let the Reader peruse that place and he shall perceiue howe cunning you are in counterfeiting For M. Martyr speaketh there onely of the lawes of God whiche be immutable and sheweth that therein the Churche of God doth differ from a common wealth bycause the common wealth doth often chaunge hir lawes but the Churche doth not so and he meaneth such lawes as be of the essence and being of the Church are of fayth and of saluation He speaketh also of the inwarde and essentiall forme of the Church not of the external and accidental forme of it whych is now in question and of the spiritual gouernment not of the externall gouernment Certaine it is that no law of God not being personall or temporall is to be altered But I require to haue that law sette down which establisheth this forme of gouernment for the whiche you nowe contende T. C. Bucer in his firste booke of the kingdome of Christe the. 15. chapter lamenteth that there were found amongst those which are counted of the forwardest Christians which woulde not haue the same discipline vsed nowe that was in the times of the Apostles obiecting the differences of times and of men Io. Whitgifte There is nothing in that chapter that maketh any thing wyth you or against me for who denyeth but that the discipline that Christe hath appoynted ought to be mainteined and kept in his Church our question is of the manner of executing it of the persons and of certaine other circumstances whereof M. Bucer in that chapter speaketh not one worde and that the Reader may vnderstande howe you seeke to delude him I will recite the wordes of M. Bucer in that chapter wherein he comprehendeth al that which is spoken in the same chapter touching this matter Out of all these testimonies of the holy Scripture concerning Christes kingdome they that beleeue the worde of God shall easily vnderstande that what soeuer Christe the Lorde bath commaunded vs and appoynted the same to bring a sure and great helpe to our saluation if it be so obserued as be bath commaunded and appointed it and that in all ages howsoeuer men and times doe varie neyther can wee wittginly for any cause intermitte or neglecte any of them but we muste therewith refuse and despise Christe himselfe and his whole kingdome All which I graunt and they touch not any thing nowe in controuersie Surely these be but slender testimonies to proue that there ought nowe to be the same regiment of the church whiche was in the Apostles times if you speake of the externall regiment which only is now in question T. C. 2 That one minister ought not to haue any dominion ouer an other The foresaide Heluetian confession c. in the seuententh chapter saythe that Christe did most seuerely prohibite vnto his Apostles and their successors primacie and dominion and in the
eightenth chapter saith that equall power and function is giuen vnto all the ministers of of the Church and that from the beginning no one preferred himselfe to an other sauing only that for order some one did call them togither propound the matters that were to be consulted of and gathered the voyces c. Io. Whitgifte The wordes of the confession in the. 17. chapter be these truely Christe is present with his Churche and is a lyuing head who straightly forbad his Apostles and their successors to chalenge the primacie or supremacie in the Church This the confession speaketh of such primacie supremacie as the Byshop of Rome doth chalenge ouer the whole Church for in that place it onely speaketh of the Popes vsurped authoritie and not one worde of that superioritie among Ministers which is now in controuersie That which the confession affirmeth in the eightenth chapter maketh nothing against any superioritie allowed in this Churche of Englande for we acknowledge that there is one equall power and function of al Ministers but yet superioritie also to be among them for order sake and the same doth the Confession acknowledge in plaine and manifest woords euen in this place by you alledged whereby also that distinction is verifyed whiche you séeme so greatly to mislyke to witte that there is an equalitie of all Ministers of Gods worde quoad ministerium touching the ministerie but degrées and superioritie among them quoad ordinem politiam touching order and gouernment T. C. Musculus in his common places in the chapter of the offices of the ministers of the worde saith that in the Apostolike Church the ministers of the worde were none aboue another nor subiecte to any head or president and mislyketh the setting vp of any one in higher degree than another And further he saith vpon the seconde chapter of the seconde Epistle to the Thessalonians that the honor of a Bishop being taken from the rest of the ministers and giuē to one was the first step to the papacie howsoeuer in other places he speaketh otherwise Io. Whitgifte Musculus in those wordes of his common places speaketh of superioritie quoad officium potestatem touching office and power for these wordes dothe he vse he speaketh not of superioritie touching order and pollicie whiche is nowe in question The same power is in all ministers of the worde of bynding losing and administring the Sacraments but not of gouerning in the externall pollicie of the Church Moreouer Musculus in that place speaketh chiefly of the vsurped power of the Byshop of Rome and of that authoritie which his Byshoppes doe chaleng and clai e from him wherefore that place maye not be wrested against the lawfull iurisdictiō and superioritie that is nowe vsed in this Church of Englande Upon the seconde chapter of thée seconde Epistle to the Thessalonians he onely sheweth how the Pope came to such excessiue authoritie No man doubteth but that such things as were well instituted and vpon iust considerations may by proces of tyme abused but doth it therfore followe that they may not be restored to their right vse agayne A man might then much more strongly reason agaynst your equalitie which by sufficient tryall as by Ierome in sundrie places it maye appeare is proued to haue bene and to be the cause of schismes sectes contentions seditions tumultes murders confusion of Churches and common weales c. Nothing is so well instituted but it may be abused T. C. 3 That the election of Ministers perteyneth not to one man The foresayde Heluetian confession c. in the eightenth chapter sayth that the ministers ought to be chosen of the Churche or by those which are lawfully deputed of the Churche and afterwarde ordeyned with publike prayers Io. Whitgifte This maketh againste you for the confession alloweth that election of Ministers which is made by those that are appoynted to that office in the Churche for these be the wordes of the Confession but our Byshops are appointed to that office in this Church therefore the Confession alloweth Byshops to elect Ministers The wordes that followe that they should be ordeyned with publike prayers is obserued in our Church T. C. M. Caluine in his fourth booke of Institutions 3. chapter 15. section sheweth that the Church did choose and that the Apostles did moderate the election aud confuteth them whyche vpon the places of Titus and Timothie woulde proue that the election belongeth to one man Io. Whitgifte To this place of M. Caluine I haue sufficiently answered in the thirde treatise of election of Ministers chap. 7. the. 1. diuision T. C. 4 That there ought newe to be Elders to gouerne the Church wyth the Pastors and Deacons to prouide for the poore Touching Elders the iudgement of M. Caluine hath beene before declared in the fyrste of these propositions Io. Whitgifte And in the same place haue I answered that whych is there by you alledged out of M. Caluine T. C. M. Beza in his booke of Diuorces page 161. sayth that the Eldership of the Church ought to be where there is a Christian magistrate Io. Whitgifte M. Beza doth not say in that place that the Eldership of the Churche ought to be where there is a Christian Magistrate but that it may be and that it hath bene which he onely speaketh and proueth not And yet if he meane that Presbyterie whereof the Canons speake by him only in generalitie named then is it no other than we haue at this daye in this Church of Englande in Cathedrall Churches and Colleges for in the Canons presbyterium signifieth nothing else but a Colledge or company of Priestes and Ministers of the worde and Sacraments as I haue further declared in the. 17. Tract where I haue also shewed that M. Beza his opinion is that the gouernment of the Church maye admitte alteration according to the diuersities of times place and persons cap. vlt. T. C. Touching Deacons M. Caluine 4. booke 3. chapter 9. section after that he had discribed what Deacons the Churches had in the Apostles tymes saythe that we after their example ought to haue the lyke Io. Whitgifte M. Caluines words be these En quales habuerit diaconos Apostolica ecclesia quales ad eius exemplum habere nos conueniat Beholde what Deacons the Apostolicall churche had euen suche as it is conuenient we should haue according to that example Hee dothe not saye that we ought to haue them but that it is conuenient to haue th he doth not make them necessary but conuenient and he must be vnderstanded to ke of that Churche whereof he had experience not of this Churche wherein he was 〈◊〉 a straunger Of Deacons and that their office was not only to prouide for the poore but to preache also and to baptise I haue proued Tract 19. Tract 14. T. C. M. Beza in the. 5. chap. and. 23. section of his Confessiōs sheweth that the office of the distribution of the goodes of the