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A25216 A reply to the Reverend Dean of St. Pauls's reflections on the Rector of Sutton, &c. wherein the principles and practices of the non-conformists are not only vindicated by Scripture, but by Dr. Stillingsfleet's Rational account, as well as his Irenicum : as also by the writings of the Lord Faulkland, Mr. Hales, Mr. Chillingworth, &c. / by the same hand ; to which is added, St. Paul's work promoted, or, Proper materials drawn from The true and only way of concord, and, Pleas for peace and other late writings of Mr. Richard Baxter ... Alsop, Vincent, 1629 or 30-1703.; Barret, John, 1631-1713. 1681 (1681) Wing A2919; ESTC R6809 123,967 128

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whether it be not Justice to tell the World and write it on our Cross that we are silenced c. because we dare not take Oaths and Covenants imposed in Terms excluding Limitations and Exceptions in a limited excepting Sence without the Explication of the Law-makers ib. p. 120 121. Q. 22. Suppose the Sin were on the silenced Ministers part yet if their Errour be in a small and difficult Matter not deserving silencing as theirs Rom. 14. about Meats and Days c. whether it may not be a far greater Sin and Schism in the Silencers than in them First Plea for Peace p. 116. Tho the Magistrate ought to silence all Preachers that after due Admonition so grosly misbehave themselves in Doctrine Worship or Conversation as to be the Plagues of the Churches and to do apparently more hurt than good yet as to all worthy and able Ministers if they commit any Fault whether they should not be punished only as other Subjects with such Penalties as shall not by silencing or restraint be a Punishment to the Peoples Souls nor hinder the preaching of the Gospel of Salvation Even as if the common Bakers Brewers Butchers Carpenters perform their Work perniciously poysoning their Bread Beer Meat c. they should be forbidden their Trade but should they for other Faults be so punished that the People be left without Bread Beer Meat and Houses for their Faults Moral Prognostication p. 55. § 32. Are there no fitter means than silencing to correct such Ministers Is it not a Sin to silence them when their Ministry is needful Ans. to Dr. Stil Serm. p. 20 21. Had Images been lawfully used in Places or Exercises of God's Worship yet whether was it not Inhuman and Unchristian in those Bishops and Councils who cursed from Christ all that were of a contrary Mind and ejected and silenced the Dissenters Way of ●oncord p. 89. § 25. Q. 23. Whether do Men take it to be a Sin to suffer us to preach the Gospel and a greater Sin than to suffer the Inundation of Infidelity Popery and the rest which they say is ready to break in upon us Or whether do they judg our not Subscribing Swearing c. so great a Sin in us that the Punishment laid on Swearers Drunkards or Fornicators will not serve turn to avenge it on our selves nor any other of our personal Sufferings unless the Souls of many 1000's and the Protestant Religion and our Posterity also suffer for it Sacril Desert p. 138 139. Q. 24. Whether Magistrates and Pastors must not distinguish of Errors and Faults of Subjects whether some are not tolerable and therefore to be tolerated and some intolerable and therefore not to be tolerated Whether they that cry out One and All why not one as well as another will say If a Foot must be cut off for a Gangreen why not for a Corn Second Plea for Peace p. 162. § 49. Q. 25. Whether he that knows himself to be a Man and a Sinner and is penitently conscious what abundance of greater Sins he hath than the conscientious Forbearance of a Ceremony or needless Oath or Subscription will not be very tender of his usage of others for such Matters Ib. p. 1●3 § 52 Q 26. Whether a tender Conscience be not the same with what God hath pro●i●d even an Heart of Flesh a Conscience that hath Spiritual Life and Feeling and is sensible of the evil of the least Sin Ib. p. 163 164. § 54. And whether the imposing of unnecessary Subscriptions Professions or Oaths be not the way to fill the Church with Men that are not troubled with tender Consciences and that have no fear of God or Sin And whether he that believeth that ever he shall be judged by the great Pastor of the Flock should not be as much at least afraid of letting in such Presbyters into the Church as of enduring holy faithful Men that fear a Lie or Oath or Superstition Ib. p. 164. § 55. Q. 27. Whether every Man hath not Sins of Ignorance and some degree of Error And whether have not some Faithful Men more than others And do they not take some Sins to be Duties or no Sins Way of Concord p. 181. And whether he that maketh a Canon to Silence or Excommunicate or cast out Men for a Fault common to all Preachers Christians and Men doth not make a Canon to Silence or cast out all Preachers Pastors and Men And if we deserve to be cast out of the Church and Kingdom in the case of Non-conformity to the present Impositions whether it be not either because we are weak or ignorant or wicked And whether we may not here profess to the World our joyful consent to be silenced and banished on condition that the Diocesans will effectually provide that none more Weak more Ignorant and more Wicked shall be tolerated in Church and Kingdom when we are gone and that no detriment shall befal hi● Majesties Dominions by the diminution of his Subjects Second Plea for Peace p. 164 165. § 57 58. Q. 28. Whether a diversity of Circumstances and indifferent Modes in divers Churches or Parishes and sometimes in the same Church be such a dreadful Mischief as some frightful Pastors would make themselves and others believe Or whether it be to be compared with the consequents of unnecessary Impositi●ns Second Plea for Peace p. 158. § 44. Q. 29. Whether was there no difference in their Forms or Modes of Worship between Basil at Caesarea and the Church at Neocoeserea and between Rome and Millane and between almost all the Catholick Bishops for many hundred years And whether is there not so now one Parish-Minister praying freely in the Pulpit before and after Sermon another by a Form a third bi●ding Prayer before c. Sacril Desert p. 34. And is not difference in many points of Doctrine as great a difference as using and not using some of the Liturgick Forms and Ceremonies Ans. to Dr. Stil Serm. p. 46 or 48. Q. 30. Whether the present full Conformity required will ever be the Terms of the full desirable Unity and Concord of the Christian Protestants in his Majesties Dominions Whether it be not morally impossible to bring all good Christians Judgments to hold all this Conformity lawful And whether it be not as impossible to bring them all to conform to that which they judg unlawful Second Plea for Peace p. 172. § 80. Whether there is a greater difference of Visages than of Intellectual Apprehensions Way of Concord p. 81. And while there will be difference in Judgment even among Christians and good and tolerable Christians whether can other be expected than that there will be also difference in Professions and in Practice Will not honest Mens Professions and Practices agree in the main with their Judgments Whether then is it to be expected that if some Men think that long doctrinal Confessions formed in Men's private Words or Liturgies or other humane Forms have nothing in them
Liberty of captivating their Vnderstanding to Scripture only and as Rivers when they have a free Passage run all to the Ocean so it may well be hoped by God's Blessing that universal Liberty thus moderated may quickly reduce Christendom to Truth and Vnity This Citation being to long I shall add but one more out of him and that a shorter p. 209. This is most certain and I believe you will easily grant it that to reduce Christians to Vnity of Communion there are but two ways that may be conceived probable The one by taking away diversity of Opinions touching Matters of Religion The other by shewing that the diversity of Opinions which is among the several Sects of Christians ought to be no hinderance to their Vnity in Communion Last of all I close with your Rational Account p. 291. And therefore those lesser Societies cannot in Justice make the necessary Conditions of Communion narrower than those which belong to the Catholick Church i. e. those things which declare Men Christians ought to capacitate them for Communion with Christians Even an acknowledgment of the Scriptures as the indispensible Rule of Faith and Manners Which be pleased to note is something different from your late establish'd Rule Now would you fix here that those things which declare Men Christians shall suffice to capacitate them for Communion with you how many Mens Scruples would be removed and what better way can you think of to put a stop to Separation 7. Are you Impartial in charging all Nonconformist's Meetings with Separation tho very many of them ordinarily join with the Parochial Congregations and do not deny them ●o be true Churches as the old Separatists did p. 56. It is true say you in that Opinion they differ but in Separation they agree As in your Sermon p. 33. For do they not do the very same things and in the same manner that the others do how comes it then to be Separation in some and not in others Which I answered Rector of Sutton p. 49. thus What they do is not done upon the Separatists Principles and therefore not done in the same manner Yet you neither retract that Saying of yours nor refute my Answer And have not others as much reason to object against you that when you receive the Sacrament k●eeling you do the same thing that the Papists and Lutherans do I do not think it manifestly appears from the Pope's manner of receiving either sitting or a little leaning upon his Throne as you say p. 15. that the Papists are allowed to follow him herein How then comes that to be an Act of Worship in them when with you it is no Act of Worship but a ●eer indifferent Ceremony 8. Are you not very Partial in loading those that do not absolutely separate from you but only secundum quid as you do p. 54 55 56. Making their Practice that own you to be true Churches to be the more unjustifiable more inexcusable more unreasonable Separation Is it not a greater Schism to separate from you as no true Church than to do it only because you are faulty in imposing such Conditions as they cannot lawfully submit to Are they the greatest Separatists who hold Communion with you so far as they can I should think they are the greatest Separatists whose Separation is the most unjustifiable inexcusable and unreasonable As I had thought there was not so much reason to deny the Being of the Church of England while she retaineth the true Faith and hath the true Worship of God for substance as there may be to doubt of the lawfulness of Ceremonies and Modes of Worship invented and imposed without any clear Scripture-Warrant And suppose one dares not receive the Communion with you because he holdeth kneeling in that Act a participating with Idolaters and another is kept off because he suspects there may be some Superstition in it will you say the latter is the more unreasonable And do you not own those Lutheran Churches that have Exorcism with Baptism yet to be true Churches And if you was placed there must you therefore own and use Exorcism tho against your Judgment or be guilty of a more inexcusable unreasonable Separation from them than the Papists who deny them to be true Churches 9. Are you Impartial in allowing a different way of Worship to the Members of Forreign Churches here in England as p. 147 148. while you are against allowing the like Liberty to Natives which you deny not to Strangers Bishop Davenant Ad pacem Eccl. Adhort p. 116. Rat. 3. argues That none ought to deal more hardly with their Christian Brethren of other Churches than with their own Rom. 12. 5. Nam fra●●rnit●s Christiana quae Intercedit inter membra Christi non variatur pro locorum aut nationum varietate You would have your own more hardly dealt with than those of forreign Churches Now what Equity is here Either you have Communion with those of Forreign Churches not withstanding their different way of Worship or you have not If you have no Communion with them then are you not Schismaticks from those Churches If you have Communion with them why may you not as lawfully have Communion with Nonconformists in their way of Worship Can you assign any just and sufficient Cause ex Natura rei why such a way of Worship should not be allowed 10. Do you deal Impartially while you complain p. 112. that no bounds are set to the Peoples Fancies of purer Administrations concerning which I am quite mistaken if I did not wish the Rector of Sutton had cautioned what he said and you on the other hand set no Bounds but by your excepting against what Mr. B. hath written of it would have People own and commit the care of their Souls to such Ministers as are in place be they never so profane insufficient or unsound Tho Mr. Cheyney Full Answer c. Introduct p. 7. grants That where God doth make a difference Men may Now God doth make a difference says he between the Ministry of the best and the worst between the Ministry of a John Baptist and a Pharisee a living Man and an Image P. 177. Say you And doth this Kindness only belong to some of our Parochial Churches c. Where you suppose every Parochial Church in England to be a true Church and every Parochial Minister by consequence to be a true Minister unless you would argue fallaciously there Tho I had thought it possible to have found out some few at least whom you would have been ashamed to own I cannot but wonder at that you urge again and again p. 111. Were they not baptized in this Church and received into Communion with it as Members of it p. 148. Our Business is with those who being baptized in this Church c. May not all those that were baptized in Presbyterian or Independent Congregations as well plead their Baptism for their continuing in that way of Worship which was in the