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A13170 A ful and round ansvver to N.D. alias Robert Parsons the noddie his foolish and rude Warne-word comprised in three bookes, whereof, the first containeth a defence of Queene Elizabeths most pious and happie gouernment, by him maliciously slaundered. The second discouereth the miserable estate of papists, vnder the Popes irreligious and vnhappy tyrannie, by him weakely defended. The third, toucheth him for his vnciuill termes and behauior, and diuers other exorbitant faults and abuses, both here and elsewhere by him committed, and cleareth his vaine obiections and cauils. Sutcliffe, Matthew, 1550?-1629. 1604 (1604) STC 23465; ESTC S117978 279,569 402

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master of Sentences Dist 1. lib. 1. the school-mē striue about the words vti and frui dissenting not only from their master but also from one another They differ also much about the distinction of diuine attributes Vtrum sit realis formalis an rationis tantùm This saith Dionysius a Charterhouse Monke is one of the chiefe difficulties of Diuines In dist 2. lib. 1 sent and about it betweene famous Doctors is great dissention and contention Aegidius doth lance Thomas and others runne vpon both Aegidius in lib. 1. sent dist 2. would haue the persons of the Trinitie to be distinguished by a certaine thing in one that is not in another but others condemne him for that opinion Writing vpon the 3. dist lib. 1. sent they denie their masters examples and one condemneth another Bonauenture saith that men may attaine to the knowledge of the holy Trinitie by naturall reason others say contrarie The Scotists lib. 1. sent dist 5. inuey against Henricus de Gandauo for his opinion about the eternall generation of the Sonne of God Aegidius holdeth that the son of God hath power to beget another son which displeaseth Thomas and Bonauenture and is very strange doctrine Thomas Aquinas part 1. q. 32. art 4. saith that Doctors may hold contrary opinions Circa notiones in diuinis He teacheth also that the holy Ghost doth more principally proceed from the Father then from the Sonne which others mislike If then they agrée not about the doctrine of the holy Trinitie it is not like that in matters wherein they haue libertie to dissent they will better agrée Scotus holdeth In 2. sent dist 1. that the soule and an Angell do not differ as two diuers kinds Others teach contrary Some Doctors hold that Angels consist of forme onely In 2. sent dist 3. others hold contrary They dissent also about the sin of our first parents Pighius in the doctrine of original sin dissenteth from his fellowes Innocentius in c. maiores de bapt eius effect misliketh the opinion of the master of the Sentences that held it to be pronitas ad peccandum that is a pronenesse to sinne The Thomists to this day could neuer be reconciled to the Scotists about the conception of our Ladie these denying she was conceiued in sin the others affirming it Gropper in his exposition of the Créed confesseth that among the Papists there are two diuers opinions about Christs descending into hell Bellarmine in his bookes of controuersies doth not more violently run vpon vs then vpon his owne consorts In euery article almost he bringeth contrary expositions of Scriptures and contrary opinions In the sacrament of the Lords supper which is a pledge of loue there are infinite contradictions among them as I haue shewed in my bookes de Missa against Bellarmine The like contentions I haue shewed in my Treatises de Indulgentijs de Purgatorio and shall haue occasion more at large to speake of them hereafter We are therefore to thanke God that the doctrine of faith in the Church of England is setled and that refusing all nouelties we agrée therein with the auncient catholike Church We acknowledge one Lord one faith one baptisme one head of the Church one canon of Scriptures with the auncient fathers The rules of all auncient and lawfull generall Councels concerning the faith we admit We haue one vniforme order for publike prayers administration of Sacraments and Gods seruice Neither do we onely agrée among our selues but also with the reformed Churches of France and Germany and other nations especially in matters of faith and saluation And as for ceremonies and rites it cannot be denied but that all Churches therein haue their libertie as the diuersities of auncient Churches and testimonies of Fathers do teach vs. Most vaine therefore and contumelious is that discourse of N.D. in his Warne-word 1. encontr ca. 4 5 6. where he talketh of the difference of soft and rigide Lutherans among themselues of them from Anabaptists and from Zwinglians of all from the followers of Seruetus and Valentine Gentilis For neither do we acknowledge the names of Lutherans Caluinians or Zuinglians but onely call our selues Christians nor haue we to do with the Arians or Anabaptists or Seruetus or Gentilis or any heretikes Nay by our Doctors these fellowes haue bene diligently confuted and by our gouernors the principall of them haue bene punished But these may Parsons reply haue bin among vs. Admit it were so yet do not our aduersaries take themselues to be guiltie of Arianisme and Anabaptisme because there are diuers guiltie of Arianisme and Anabaptisme among them We say further that the Churches of Germany France and England agree albeit priuate men hold priuate opinions Finally where we talk of the Church of England what a ridiculous sot was this to bring an instance of the Churches of Germany or Suizzerland nay not of the Churches but of priuat persons and that in matters not very substantiall if we admit their owne interpretations Hauing therefore talked his pleasure of Lutherans and Zuinglians he descendeth to speak of rigid and soft Caluinists as he calleth them in England He calleth them also Protestants and Puritanes But neither do we admit these names of faction nor is he able to shew that publikely any Christian is tolerated to dissent either in matters of faith or rites from the Church of England But if any there be that mislike our rites yet is not that contention about matters of faith nor can the disorder of priuate persons hinder the publike vnion of the Church Finally I do not know any man now but he is reasonably well satisfied concerning matters of discipline albeit the same be with the great griefe of Papists who go about to stirre vp the coles of contention as much as they can that heretofore haue bene couered CHAP. II. Of the restoring of Christian Religion and the reduction of the Church of England to the true faith TRue faith in time of Poperie was a great stranger in England most men being ignorant of all points of christian Religion the rest holding diuers erronious points and heresies Their ignorance we shall proue by diuers testimonies hereafter Their errors and heresies are very apparent and at large proued in my late challenge That which the Apostle calleth the doctrine of diuels 1. Tim. 4. that they imbrace for doctrine of faith For they forbid their Priests Monkes Friers and Nuns to marrie and commaund the Benedictines and their Charterhouse Monkes at all times to abstaine from flesh They also forbid men to eate flesh vpon all fasting dayes fridayes and saterdayes and in Lent dissoluing the commandements of God by their owne traditions The Manicheyes abstained from egges as Saint Augustine sheweth lib. de haeres cap. 46. Nec oua saltem sumunt quasi ipsa cùm franguntur expirent nec oporteat vllis corporibus mortuis vesci Cap. plurimi dist 82. So likewise did Papists at certain
There is no light there no guide no leader in turnings but darknesse round about and confusion euery where lest it should not seeme to be true Babylon wonderfull perplexitie and to vse Lucans words a great night of abhominable sins I say a darke and continuall night without star-light or glimmering of morning twilight and a deepe and continuall obscuritie of mens actions Most miserable therefore and calamitous is the state of the Papists For if eternall life consist in the knowledge of God and Christ Iesus as himselfe teacheth vs Ioh. 17. what hope can they haue that are ignorant of God and godlinesse of Christ and Christs true religion If they liue in darknesse and without light that want the light of Gods word then is the darknesse of poperie great where publike prayers and Scriptures read publikely are kept vnder the couer of strange tongues as a candle vnder a bushell If the people of God were led away captiue for that they wanted knowledge as it is Isa 5. what possibilitie haue the Papists to frée themselues from the captiuity of the diuell and Antichrist that are ignorant of religion and led by the noses by impostors and false teachers suborned by Antichrist Finally if the people perish where there is no prophecying as we reade Prouerb 29. then are the Papists in a most fearefull and damnable state among whom the word of God is not sincerely preached and to whom wicked Masse-priests and Friars for the word of God preach humane deuises and lyes The very heathen vnderstood that the knowledge of God was the beginning the cause and rule of humane happinesse 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 saith Pythagoras 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 If then they vnderstand not their miserie Apud Stobaeum that want the knowledge of God they are more ignorant and lesse excusable then heathen people Against this assertion I doubt not but Robert Parsons will take exception who in his Wardw. pag. 12. stormeth when he heareth vs but once to mention the ignorance of Quéene Maries times But the matter is too manifest for him to face out with bigge words He telleth vs of Tonstal Watson Christophorson Feckham Gardiner and White But neither was the learning of these men extraordinarie as some of their doings yet extant declare nor was their learning great in the true knowledge of diuinity Nor was this a good consequence these men were learned therfore the people were also learned For these men seldome preached and but to few and to very litle edification He addeth therefore in the Warn-word 2. Encountr cap. 6. that the learning and skill of Doctors and teachers maketh the people intelligent and skilfull But that is where they teach and instruct the people which these did not There also he telleth vs that in other countries the common people yea children and babes are able to answer in Christian religion But first this concerneth times past nothing And next this fashion of catechizing is but in few places exercised and by the Iebusites in imitation of true teachers For so the diuels ministers imitate Christs Apostles Thirdly the Catechisme of Papists is nothing but the Creede the Pater noster the Law and seuen Sacraments as Bellarmine deuideth his doctrine in his Italian Catechisme and of Aue Maria and other deuises as other Catechismes shew Fourthly there is much mixture of ceremonies and false doctrine Finally the Italians and Spaniards are litle wiser for this catechizing He telleth vs also in his Wardw. p. 12. of the profound learning of the school-doctors in Spaine and Italie and saith We dare not once appeare to dispute with them But neither maketh the skill of the diuers sects of Friars for the Priests or the people that are not taught by them Nor is their learning skill in Scriptures or Fathers which few of them reade as appeareth by the confession of Ferdinand Vellosillo in his preface vpon his aduertences on the Doctors Nor are there so many learned as is pretended True it is that they are now more diligent then they were in time past but it is rather to suppresse truth then to teach truth For they teach seldome and talke of vaine speculations and desire nothing but that the people should be ignorant in Gods word which popish ignorance is now almost as much in Italie and Spaine as in time past God enlighten those nations and make them once sée the truth and vnderstand their ignorance CHAP. II. Of the common workes of Papists BVt may our aduersaries say albeit in time past men were not so learned yet they liued better then men of our times And true it is that S. Augustine saith Li. 3. conf c. 8 That men vnlearned earnestly contend for heauen while learned men without vnderstanding wallow in flesh and blood if we vnderstand it of those that onely had learned Christ Iesus and him crucified and were vnskilfull in other matters and not of those rude and ignorant people that albeit cunning in worldly affaires were notwithstanding vtterly ignorant of Christ Iesus Wherefore as we haue before proued the Papists to be commonly most ignorant of diuine matters so now we will briefly touch their liues and actions to see if their manners correspond with their skill And the rather I follow this course De indulgen for that Schoppius telleth vs of their braue workes done in the times of Iubileys and Robert Parsons is euer talking of good workes as if that were the proper possession of his consorts Wherein I would not haue any to thinke that when I name Papists I meane to speake against all our forefathers who indeed positiuely held not all points of popery but rather professed Christianitie positiuely albeit they did not resolutely denie popish errors but onely such as are the chiefe founders teachers and maintainers of popish Religion and which with great zeale persecute all that resist it or refuse it These fellowes therefore I say haue no cause to glorie or boast of their workes For whether we looke into the diuersitie of times of states of men or else consider euery vertue and good worke by it selfe or looke into the countries drowned in Popery I doubt not but we shall find the zelators and chiefe pillers of popery very defectiue and no way answerable to the commendation which their hired Proctors do commonly giue them For the times before the yeare of our Lord 1500 I haue already alleaged the testimonies of Brigit Petrarch Catherine of Siena Boccace Breidenbach Hugetin Robertus Gallus Math. Paris and diuers others vnto which I will adde the testimonie of Platina In Marcellino Vspergensis and VVernerus I need not say saith Platina how excessiue the couetousnesse of Priests is and of those especially that are in principal places nor how great is their lust ambition pompe pride sloth ignorance of themselues and of Christian doctrine how corrupt their religion is and rather dissembled then true and how corrupt are their manners in prophane men whom