to the word and yet not conteyned in the worde Men may haue an opinion of Religion and merite in suche thinges as they thinke not to be of necessitie to saluation To be shorte men may make that sinne whych the worde of God maketh not sinne as all those doe whiche forbid the vse of indifferent things and make the same vnlawfull as I haue sayde before You sée nowe that there is no one parte of this diuision as you call it which dothe not include something not conteyned in the other partes and therfore all those vnséemely and immodest tauntes and words mighte haue bin forborne I aske no forgiuenesse of you for any thing that I haue wrytten But I beséeche God forgyue you your outrageous contemptes and vnchristian floutes and iestes where with your booke is more pestered than any of Hardinges is where he sheweth him selfe moste scurrilous But I will omit them all and onely desire the Reader to consider of what spirite they come and in bothe our writings to respecte the matter not the person Touching the exposition of the places of Deut. let the learned Reader compare it with the expositions of the learned Interpreters and then iudge of my vnskilfull The Replier hath spēt many wordes in confuting that which he him selfe cōfesseth diuiding and defyning Here now I wold gladly know what T. C. hath proued agaynst the thing y t I haue here writtē or how he hath iustified y e propositiō of y e Admonition which I haue refelled for the sūme of al is this The authors of the Admonitiō say that those things onely are to be placed in the Churche which God him selfe in his worde commaundeth This I confesse to be true in matters of saluation and damnation But I saye it is vntrue in matters of ceremonies rites orders discipline and kinde of gouernmente which béeing externall matters and alterable are to be altered and chaūged appoynted and abrogated according to time place and person so that nothing be done agaynst the worde of God And T. C. confesseth page 15. that Pag. 15. Sect. 5. certayne things are lefte to the order of the Churche bicause they are of that nature which are varied by tymes places persons and other circumstances and so could not at once be set downe and established for euer and yet so lefte to the order of the Churche as that it doe nothing agaynst the rules aforesayde The same dothe he affirme in effecte in this place Nowe I pray you tell me what difference is there in our wordes he saythe that certayne thinges are lefte to the order of the Churche c. so that nothing bee done agaynst the rules aforesayde And I saye that the Church hath authoritie to appoynt orders rites ceremonies c. so that nothing be done agaynst the worde of God In déede he goeth muche further in this matter than I doe for where I saye The Scripture expresseth all things necessarie to saluation he affirmeth that many things are bothe commaunded and forbidden c. as I haue before noted and is to Pag. 13. Sect. 2. be séene page 13. of his booke But to ende this matter I haue iustified my assertion by the scriptures 1. Cor. 14. Act. 6. and. 15. 1. Cor. 11. Also by the testimonies of Iustinus Martyr Irenaeus Tertullian Cyprian Ambrose Basill Augustine c. Likewise by the practises of Councels the reporte of Historiographers as Socrates and Sozomenus Finally by the iudgement of late writers M. Caluin and Bucer Now will I also adde a fewe wordes for the further confirmation of the same and so ende this question ¶ The opinion of other late wryters of things indifferent The. 7. Chapter Zuinglius in his booke de baptis after that he had declared howe the Scripture contayneth Zuinglius all thinges necessarie vnto saluation he sheweth That in externall things and matters of ceremonies many things are to be vsed in the Churche whiche be not contayned in the Scriptures And speaking of this place Philip. 3. If any think otherwise God will also reueale the same vnto you neuerthelesse in that wherevnto we are come let vs proceede by one rule or agree among our selues saythe That the Apostle there speaketh of nothing else than of externall ceremonies and rites the vse and administration whereof the same Apostle in that place affyrmeth to be in our vvill and povver so that vve doe nothing repugnant to the commaundement of God Neyther trouble the publyke peace whereof we oughte to haue especiall regarde for externall thinges These be the very wordes of Zuinglius in the which there is first to be noted the interpretation of the words of the Apostle Philip. 3. Secondly that he vseth Collections out of Zuinglius this exception So that we doe nothing repugnant to the commaundement of God which T. C. so muche misliketh The same Zuinglius in the same booke verifieth in playne wordes that whiche I before haue touching a negatiue argument from the authoritie of the Scriptures Peter Martyr vpon the. 1. Corinth 1. wryteth That there be three kindes of traditions P. Martyr one expressed in the Scriptures an other playne repugnant to the worde of God The thirde neither contrarie to the worde of God nor yet necessarily ioyned to the same in the vvhich vve muste obey the Churche These three cautions beeing obserued First that they be not obtruded as worship of God or peculiar holynesse but as pertayning to order and the ciuill commoditie of the Churche and to comelynesse in diuine actions for all thinges be sufficiently contayned in Scriptures that pertayne to the worshipping of God and holynesse Secondly that they be not counted so necessarie but that they may be altered if time require Let the Churche keepe hir interest and authoritie in these indifferent things to appoynt vvhat shall be thoughte most necessarie and meete to edifying Last of all that the people of God be not burdened with to great a multitude of them Thus farre Martyr Gualter in his preface to the first Epistle to the Corinth after that he hath declared Gualter the diuersitie of rites vsed in diuerse Churches concludeth on this sort VVherefore S. Augustine writing to Ianuarius after that he had layde forth diuerse ceremonyes of Churches obserued in his time dyd very well thinke that this shoulde be the most safe rule vnto Christian men if they did frame them selues vnto those Churches wherevnto they should come in those things which might be done without any preiudice vnto fayth and godlynesse his wordes are these There is in these things meaning customes and rytes no better rule or instruction for a graue and wise Christian than that he do after that manner the which he seeth vsed of the Church vnto the which he shall peraduenture come c. The which moderation if all men woulde vse at this day there would be lesse contention in the Church neither shoulde Christian libertie be abridged by the superstitious traditions
would not gladly sée or here I told you there that Iustinus Martyr speaketh of this matter in his second Apologie and in his booke of questions and that Tertullian speaketh of the same in his booke de corona militis It hathe pleased you in that whiche followeth to Neyther dumbe nor speaking persons cā please T. C. reproue me for translating into my booke other mens opinions and authorities and here though I haue quoted the places where you may find them yet is it also your pleasure to spende your gibing and iesting eloquence vppon me for not translating them Well I will deceyue your expectation and make them speake Iustinus Martyr in his second Apology sayth that they vsed in baptising to call vpon the name of God for suche as were baptised and after baptisme to carrie hym that was baptised Iustin. Apo. 2. to the place where the brethren be gathered togyther to praye bothe for themselues and for hym also that is baptised and in the ende of their prayers that they salute one another with a kisse Likewise he there saythe that when they celebrated the Ibidem Lordes supper there was vsed certaine prayers and thankesgyuing to the whiche the people sayde Amen Also that the Deacons did gyue to the people the bread and the cuppe and carrie them lykewise to suche as were absent In his booke of questions Iustin. lib. quae he sheweth howe that singing was vsed in the Churche and commendeth it and that they vsed not to kneele at prayers on the Sunday in token of the resurrection Dyuers other suche ceremonies and orders dothe he recite vsed in hys tyme not prescribed by the worde of God but appoynted by the Church whereof some now be abrogated bycause they be not so fitte for this time as they were for that time Irenaeus speaketh very playnelye in that Epistle whyche he writte to Irenaeus Uictor Byshoppe of Rome whereof also Eusebius maketh mention lib. 5. cap. 25. 26. In that Epistle he declareth the diuersitie of diuers Churches for the daye of Easter the tyme of fasting and such like whiche plainely argueth that the scripture hath not determined all things but left muche to the disposition of the Church Tertullian in his booke aduersus Praxean saythe that the Churche then vsed tern Tertul. Idem mersione in baptismo thirst dipping in baptisme And in his booke de corona militis although he recite some thinges whiche in tyme grew to be superstitious yet dothe he there playnely declare what his opinion is in this matter he reciteth diuers customs of the Churche then vsed whereof there is no mention in the scriptures he declareth that those whiche were to be baptised must firste professe that they renounced the Deuill his pomp and his Angels and that then they were thrice dipt in the water amplius aliquid respondentes quam dominus in Euangelio determinauit answering somewhat more than the Lorde hath determined in the gospell Likewise he sheweth that the sacrament of the supper which the Lord celebrated at supper and commaunded to all was then celebrated in the morning and ministred only by those that be the chiefe And in the end he sayth barum aliarum buiusmodi disciplinarum si legem expostules scripturarum nullam inuenies c. of these and such like orders if thou shouldest require a law out of the scriptures thou shalt finde none and a litle after he addeth Annon putas omni fideli licere concipere constituere duntaxat quod Deo congruat quod disciplinae conducat quod Saluti proficiat dicente domino Cur autem non a vobis ipsis quod iustum est iudicatis doest thou not thinke that it is lawfull for euery faithfull man to conceiue and appoynte at the least that which agreeth to God whiche is conuenient for discipline whiche is profitable vnto saluation seeing the Lord sayth why do you not of your selues iudge that that is right And in his booke De virginibus Veland He hath these manifest words Regula Idem quidem fidei vna omninò est sola immobilis irreformabilis credendi scilicet in Deum vnicum ☞ omnipotentem c. Hac lege fidei manente caetera iam disciplinae conuersationis admittunt nouitatem correctionis operante scilicet proficiente vsque in fiuem gratia Dei There is only one rule of faith which alone is immoueable and not to be altered to witte to beleeue in one God the omnipotent creator of the worlde and in his sonne Iesus Christe borne of the Virgine Mary crucifyed vnder Pontius Pilate risen the thirde day from the dead receyued into Heauen sitting nowe at the righte hande of the father and shall come to iudge the quicke and the dead by resurrection of the fleshe this lawe of faithe remayning the other thynges of disciplyne and trade of lyfe do admitte alteration of amendmente the grace of GOD woorking and profiting too the ende Cyprian Lib. 10. Epist. 12. mentioneth certaine rites about Baptisme no where spoken of in the Scriptures and Lib. 4. Epist. 6. he sheweth it to haue bene the maner of the Church then to receiue the Communion euery day which the Scripture doth not commaunde Cyprian Idem Thus you sée that these Doctors be not dumbe but can speake sufficiently in that matter for the which they are alleaged And leaste you should cauill bycause I saye that others also be of the same Iudgement recyting onely Saynte Augustyne I haue caused Ambrose Ierome and Basill to beare wytnesse in the same matter The wordes of Ambrose be these After that Churches were appoynted in euery place Ambrose in Ephe. and offices ordayned the matter beganne otherwyse to be ordered c. And after that he had declared the difference betwixte the Apostolicall Churche and the Churche in hys tyme touchyng Ceremonyes and gouernmente he concludeth thus Therefore ☜ doe not the writyngs of the Apostles in all respectes agree wyth the order which is now in the Churche bycause these were written in the firste beginnings Ierome writing ad Ierome Lucinium and answering hys questions touchyng fastyng on the Sabboth daye and dayly receyuyng the Communion sayth on this sorte sed ego illud te breuiter admonendum puto traditiones ecclesiasticas presertim quae fidei non officiant ita obseruandas vt à maioribus traditae sunt Nec aliorum consuetudinem aliorum contrario modo subuerti But this thyng I thinke meete briefely to admonishe thee of that the Ecclesiasticall traditions namely suche as doe not hynder faythe are so to be obserued as they are delyuered of oure elders neyther is the custome of one to be ouerthrowne with the contrarie custome of others Basill in hys 63. Epistle written to the Ministers of Neocaesaria recyteth the manners Basill and Customes aboute publike prayers and singing of Psalmes then vsed in the Churche and there playnely declareth what hys iudgemente is touchyng thys
* Scriptures alledged for profe of the phrase phrase are quoted for proofe of the matter The other practise is that where the Admonition for the shortnesse which it promiseth and was necessarie in that case could not applie the places M. Doctor presuming too muche of the ignorance of his reader thought he mighte make him beleeue that any thing else was meant by those places than that whiche they meant in deede and for which they were alleadged And where you say the quotations are only to delude such c. I see you hold it no fault in your selfe which you condemne so precisely in others that is to iudge before the time to sit in the conscience to affirme definitely of their thoughts contrary to their owne protestation But seeing you lift vp our imperfections so high ▪ and set them as it were vpon a stage for all men to be looked of to the discredite of the truth which we do mainteyne you shal not thinke much if your pouertie be pointed vnto in those things wherein you would carrie so great countenance of store Io. Whitgifte The abusing of the scriptures and the vniust applying of them is to be mainteined The abusing of scripture is to be mainteined in none neither in Papist nor other and least of all in such as séeming to giue most authoritie vnto them do by that meanes giue occasion to the aduersarie to contemne them What iust occasion might the Papists haue of triumphing if they should vnderstand that we as licenciously wring and wrest the scriptures to serue our turne as they do to serue theirs And truly as well may they applie the scriptures that they vse in the defense of their Transubstantiation Purgatory Merites Images c. as the authours of the Admonition can do to proue those things for the which they do oftentimes alleadge them And therefore I thinke that my speach in that pointe againste them cannot be too sharp Charitie doth not so couer open and manifest sinnes that it suffereth them to be vnreprehended but it remitteth priuate offences it doth not publish secret sinnes at the first neither doth it disclose all things that it knoweth to the defamation of a brother when he may be otherwise reformed But this fault of theirs in abusing the scriptu s is publike printed in bookes in euery mans hand vsed to discredite and deface this Church of England which no true member of the same ought to suffer Wherfore in detecting this vntrue dealing I haue not broken any rule of Charitie but done my bounden duty If there be so many of their quotatiōs tossed and throwen away by me c. I trust you will let me vnderstand of them as occasion is offered which surely you haue done in very few places and in those wherein you haue done it you haue done it very slenderly loosely as will appeare I take very litle or no aduantage at al of the Printer but salue that as muche as I can and where as you saye that where the Admonition quoteth the scripture not only to proue the matter but to note the place from whence the phrase of speach is taken c. that is a very féeble excuse and far fetched for to what purpose shoulde they so do or why do you not by some examples declare vnto vs that they haue so done this is but a shifte and argueth that you are not purposed to acknowledge any fault be it neuer so manifest And therefore little hope there is of any amendment And whereas you also say that the Admonition for the shortnesse which it promiseth c. to that I answere as before and I adde that it was very vncircumspectly done of them to quote places whiche coulde not be applied to that purpose for the which they were quoted In suche matters men ought to haue such regard vnto the time that they abuse not the worde of God But I haue as you say otherwise applyed their quotations than they meant indeede I thinke you will let me heare of it when you come to those places and then shall I shape you an answere To what purpose should the margent of their booke be pestred with such vnapte quotations but only to delude the reader and to make him beléeue that all things there conteined be grounded of the expresse word of God where things be open and manifest there a man may iudge though he sit not in the conscience of him of whom he iudgeth As for Protestations they be nowe so vsuall and common in euery matter and the sequele so many times contrarie to the same that it is hard for a man to giue credite at all times to all persons protesting there is experience of it I coulde alleadge examples if I were disposed Set out my pouertie as much as you can and spare it not but take héede least in so doing you shewe yourselfe poore indéede and that in those things especially wherein you séeme most to complaine of my pouertie A briefe examination c. Secondly their proofes consist especially of these arguments The Argu. a sec dum quid ad simpliciter firste is ab eo quod est secundum quid ad id quod simpliciter est as such and such things were not in the Apostles time Ergo they ought not to be nowe Which kind of argument is very deceitfull and the mother and welspring of many both old and new schismes of old as of them that called themselues Apostolicos and of the Aërians of new as of the Anabaptists who cōsidering neither the diuersitie of times concerning the externall ecclesiasticall policie nor the true libertie of the Christian religion in externe rites and ceremonies in matters neither commaunded nor forbidden in Gods Law nor the authoritie of Christian magistrates in the Christian congregation concerning the same haue boldly enterprised to stirre vp many and heinous errours For if these reasons should take place the Apostles vsed it not Ergo it is not lawfull for vs to vse it or this either they did it Ergo we must needes do it then no Christians may haue any place to abide in they may haue no Christian Princes no ministration of sacraments in Churches and such like for the Apostles had no place to abide in they had no Christiā Princes to gouerne them no Churches to minister sacraments in c. Likewise we must haue al things Acts. 2. 4. common we must depart with all our possessions when we be conuerted Math. 19. to the Gospel baptise abroade in the fields minister the communiō Acts. 8. in priuate houses only be always vnder the crosse and vnder Act. 2. 20. Tyrants and such like For the Apostles had al things common departed from their possessions baptised abroade in fields ministred the communion in priuate houses were always vnder persecutors and Tyrants c. Io. Whitgifte To this kind of argument and that which is here spoken T. C. maketh no answer at
sacrifices and so had they The Gentiles in worshipping their Gods vsed externall pompe of garments of golden and siluer vessels and such like and so did they yea diuers learned men be of this iudgement that God did prescribe vnto the Israelites that solemne manner and forme of worshipping him by externall rites and ceremonies shortly after their returne out of Egypt that they being therewith not onely occupyed but also delighted should haue no desire to retourne into Egypt or to worship their Gods whome they had séene with great solemnitie of ceremonies and externall rites adored And therefore you ground your talke vpō false principles which you haue not proued but imagined Now if we may haue ceremonies common with them or like vnto them from whome we whollie differ in matter and substance of religion as we do from th Gentiles and from the Turkes muche more may we haue Ceremonies common with them or like vnto them from whome we do not wholly diff r in mat er and substance but in certaine materiall and substantiall points As for this your saying That it were better for vs to conforme our indifferent Ceremonies to the Turks which are farre off than to the Papists which are so neare I take it to be but spoken in a heate and that you will otherwise thinke when you haue better considered the matter the one being a professed enimie vnto Christ and the name of Christ the other pretending the contrary But to put you out of doubt we do not in any kinde of ceremonies conforme We conforme not our selues to the Papists in ceremonies Tit. 1. our selues to the Papists but vsing Christian libertie in externall thinges knowing that al things be cleane to those that be cleane such things as we find instituted by learned and godly men and profitable to the Church as perteyni g to e ifying or comelinesse and order though abused of the Papists we reteine in our Churches and restore to the right vse as our forefathers did the Temples of Idols turning Tract 7 cap 5 diuis 3. 4. them to Christian Churches and reuenewes consecrated to Idolls transposing them to find the ministers of the Church and such like as I haue declared in an other place Chap. 1. the. 4. Diuision T. C. Pag. 103. Sect. 1. Common reason also doth teach that contraries are cured by their contraries now Christianitie and Antichristianitie the Gospell poperie be contraries therfore Antichristianitie must be cured not by it selfe but by that which is as much as may be contrary vnto it Therefore a medled and mingled estate of the order of the Gospell and the ceremonies of poperie is not the best way to banish poperie and therefore as to abolish the infection of false doctrine of the Papists it is necessary to establish a diuers doctrine and to abolish the tyrannie of the popish gouernment necessary to plant the discipline of Christ so to heale the infection that hath crepte into mens minds by reason of the popish order of seruice it is meete that the other order were put in place thereof Io. Whitgifte Contraries must be cured by contraries in all things wherein they be contrary Christianitie How contraries must be cured by contraries and Antichristianitie the Gospell and poperie be not in all things cōtrary touching outward professiō and therfore no necessitie of abādoning all things frō Christianitie that was vsed in Antichristianitie So much of the papistical doctrine as is contrary to the Gospell that kind of gouernment in the Popes Church that is repugnant to the word of God all such order of seruice or kind of prayer as is vngodly and superstitious is to be remoued and cured with the contrary but as they haue some truth in doctrine so haue they some lawfull kind of gouernment and good and godly prayers all which being restored to their owne puritie are to be reteyned for no abuse can so defile any thing that is good that the same thing may not be vsed the abuse being taken away And yet if you would speake the truth you cannot say but that the order of the popish The order of popish seruice cleane altered in this church seruice is cleane altered in this Church for what similituds hath the vulgar tong with a tong vnknowne What likelihoode is there betwixt the multitude of ceremonies vsed by the Papists and the fewnes of such as are now reteyned How much doth the simplicitie vsed in our seruice differ from the pompe and gorgeousnesse vsed in theirs How contrary is our communion to their Masse What diuersitie is there in the celebration of our sacraments and theirs To be short the differēce is as much as eyther the worde of God or the state and condition of the Churche requireth the which you might sée if you were disposed but as I haue sayd before Caeca malitia non videt apertissima Blind malice seeth not those things that are most manifest Chap. 1. the. 5. Diuision T. C. Pag. 103 Sect. 1. Philosophie which is nothing else but reason teacheth that if a man will draw one from vice which is an extreame vnto vertue which is the meane that it is the best way to bring him as farre from that vice as may be and that it is safer and lesse harme for him to be led somewhat to farre than he should be suffered to remayne within the borders and confynes of that vice wherewith he i infected As if a man would bring a dronken man to sobrietie the best and neatest way is to cary him as farre from his excesse in drinke as may be and if a man coulde not keepe a meane it were better to fault in prescribing lesse than he should drinke than to faulte in giuing him more than he ought as we see to bring a sticke which is (*) A croked rule croked to be streight we do not only how it so farre vntill it come to be streight but we bend it so farre vntill we make it so croked of the other side as it was before of the first side to this end that at the last it may stand streight and as it were in the mid way betwene both the crokes which I do not therefore speake as though we ought to abolish one euill and hurtfull ceremonie for another but that I would shew how it is more daungerous for vs that haue bin plunged in the mire of Poperie to vse the ceremonies of it than of any other idolatrous and sperstitious seruice of God Io. Whitgifte The Replyer prescribeth a heathenish rule of retormation Rom. 3. Philosophie also teacheth that both the extreames be vices and therefore your rule dothe teache that a man must go from one vice to another if he will come to vertue whiche is a meane but Sainct Paule teacheth the contrary saying Non est faciendum malum vt inde veniat bonum VVe must not do euill that good may come thereof Wherefore as your rule is heathenish