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A01042 Eubulus, or A dialogue, where-in a rugged Romish rhyme, (inscrybed, Catholicke questions, to the Protestaut [sic]) is confuted, and the questions there-of answered. By P.A. Forbes, Patrick, 1564-1635. 1627 (1627) STC 11147; ESTC S102413 101,942 162

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even by a deceitfull confounding of what-so-ever poyntes of Trueth and what-so-ever degrees of Division or Dissention which must bee wyselie and carefullie distinguished For there bee manie poynts of Trueth wherein diversitie of judgement breaketh not the Vnitie of the Church Yea and manie Divisions and Dissentions which yet divyde not the dissenting Members one from another or if one from another yet neyther of them from the Head or common Bodie from which those onlie may bee sayde absolutelie to fall which holde not the Head or subvert directlie and with pertinacie the Foundation For manie in weaknesse will holde Opinions which in-deede doe even choppe agaynst the Foundation by cleare and necessarie Consequence but not immediatelie or directlie So as if you should challenge the Holders of that which their opinion doth import they wil not only deny it but evē abhorre the sequele of that which they mayntayne but not with that mynde And it were great want of Charitie to judge a-lyke of these and of the others Wee are all heere still compassed with Infirmitie knowing but in part and prophecying but in part In which Case the Apostle charitablie advyseth That Who are perfect they bee so mynded and if anie bee other-wayes mynded that the LORD will reveale it vnto them but that in the tyme in that where-to wee are come wee ought to proceede by one Rule mynding the same thinges I confesse manie hundreths doe regrate it with Teares That the Infirmitie of Mens myndes too farre in selfe-wiening wedded to their owne Sense and not humblie receiving Information or charitablie comporting with weake Brethren according to the Apostle's Rule both hath bred and still breedeth too manie bitter and vnnecessarie Distractions and scandalous Schismes about such thinges as if Humilitie and Loue had over-ruled Mens Affections neyther were nor are of such Moment where-fore the Vnitie of Men holding still one and the same Head and keeping one and the same Foundation should bee so lightlie broken or the Peace of GOD His House troubled But the weaknesse and not duelie-mortified Humours of Men maketh not the Trueth of GOD to fayle That Dissentions and Divisions are it declareth Men to bee yet in that part carnall but it doeth not separate them from the common Bodie so long as they holde one and the same LORD one Fayth one Hope one Baptisme and are vnited in one and the same Spirit no more than did this Defect in the Church of Corinth which al-be-it that heere-fore the Apostle did rebuke as carnall in that yet hee still did intitle with the Name of CHRIST His Church And though by anie such Schisme eyther a Person or Companie should bee divided from particular eyther Church or Churches it will not therefore follow I thinke none dare avouch it that there-fore they are separated from the Head or common Bodie so to make them in a-lyke Case with haereticall Subverters of the Foundation and Deserters of the Head Wee see by Experience in naturall Bodies That by inflicted Woundes such Gaps will bee made as the sides of the Wound eyther from other will start a-sunder and so one part of the Bodie by a separating Wound will be severed from another part which both will yet remayne still vnited in the common Bodie and bee part-takers of one and the same common Sense Motion and Lyfe from one and the same Head and Heart Thus Philomathes your Poet's Proposition absolutelie affirmed is false even when hee hath modified his indefinite All Poynts to all Poynts of Trueth Philomathes That no Vnitie argueth anie Companie to bee CHRIST'S Church but Vnitie in Trueth I must needs confesse it and that everie diversitie of opinion or everie degree of Distraction doth not separate the dissenters or distracted mutuallie from other or at least eyther of them from the common Bodie and Head I cannot denye but that you haue evinced it clearlie Yet so manie and so materiall are the Divisions amongst your Churches and your Quarrels are debated so bitterlie and againe so great is the Harmonie and Concord of the Romish Church as I thinke giveth just Reason to suspect of you that you are not nor can not bee vnited as you spake in one and the same LORD Fayth Hope Baptisme and Spirit and that the Church of Rome hath onlie and evidentlie this Honour Eubulus Now Philomathes you put the Lyfe of your Syllogisme in the Hands of your Assumption to stand or fall there-with And denying vs anie such Vnitie as may argue a Church of CHRIST you haue appropriated all to Rome how justlie we will even now examine and first your Objection against vs is manie wayes sophisticall First if such bee accounted ours who are none of vs the imputation is vnjust Wee acknowledge and doe lament it that there is too great Division and varietie of Sects calling themselues Christians in the worlde but what doe most part of them more or so much concerne vs as they concerne your Church of Rome out of whose dongue as noysome Flees they are bred and by Satan's craft comming to fly on vpon our Churches that by the mixture of their Poyson they may bring the Trueth in disgrace are onlie by vs diligentlie resisted and their Errours clearlie convinced while in the meane tyme your Romish Church whose brood they are is carelesse of anie thing but to suppresse the Trueth and calumniouslie to lay over on vs the Stinke of their owne Excrements As for such whom we will not disadvow in common how-so-ever wee will not justifie the Ambition Giddinesse and bitternesse of some particular Men who as fyre-brands disturbe humurouslie and vnnecessarilie the Peace of the Church I affirme that no such materiall Poynts are in differ betwixt vs in common wherefore wee both may not and ought not embrace others mutuallie as Brethren Which that wee doe not it is our weaknesse and the malicious worke of but a few evil-inspired Instruments seeking more their owne Estimation than GOD his Glorie and good of His Church And that no such Separation is betwixt vs but that how-so-ever by a cruell Wound of mercilesse Hands wee are separated one of vs from another yet wee are still joyned in the common Head and in the common Bodie each of vs to other So as your Man 's odious enumeration of Protestants Puritanes Calvinists Zwinglians and if you list to adde to them Lutheranes also is but a calumnious traducing of such as most part are not separated eyther from other or at least how-so-ever by some weaknesse they bee in that sort distracted yet are but one Bodie joyned in one and the same LORD Fayth Hope Baptisme and informed all of them by one and the same Spirit al-be-it not all in a-lyke measure Amongst whom there is no just breach of Communion how-so-ever that by a Wound of some cruell and dispitefull Men those you doe call Lutherians are vnnecessarilie separated from the rest but none of vs from the common Head and Bodie in which
this Argument as I vprightlie protest in the Presence of HIM Whome I serue in the GOSPELL of HIS Sonne That laying aside the verie selfe cleare and infallible Groundes of Trueth delivered in Scripture where-vpon agaynst all eyther Probabilities or Praesumptions our Fayth may and must solidlie relye there is no Reason in the Worlde so effectuall to assure my Soule of the Veritie of our Religion and that wee are of CHRIST His true Church as are the verie chiefe thinges which our Adversaries doe object agaynst vs. Neyther anie so pregnant a Motiue to perswade mee laying aside the consideration of their playne haereticall Opinions that they are the Antichristian Bodie as even those things where-in they doe chiefelie and most insolentlie glorie Which to cleare vnto you at such length and in such evidence as I well could and the Matter al-so requyreth it were a longer Speach than this short Occasion of Conference affordeth vs. But if you list to take paynes you may reade what I haue at more length written heereof in my DISPVTATIONS FOR OVR CALLINGES and in my COMMENTARIE on the REVELATION VVhich with the little that I haue nowe sayde when you haue more deeplie considered then if you remayne yet vnsatisfyed how-so-ever I neyther loue to contende vvith the Humourous nor to multiplye Babling vpon Blockes yet I vvill at your Desyre not sticke to take more paynes vpon your Ingenuitie Philomathes I will GOD willing reade those Bookes where-vnto you haue sharpened mine Appetite by that which you haue nowe spoken having there-by so filled mine Heart with great Doubts of such things as I accounted inexpugnable poynts that I can not choose but to insist till I bee setled as it shall please GOD to informe me in that which is the right Way of His Feare Philadelphus How invisible so-ever wee bee Eriphilus and how short so-ever you bee of sight yet I hope you may now perceiue your owne foyle in the chiefe Flowre of your Forces so as Eubulus hath not as you presumed evanished in Invisibilitie but hath made all your long and vaynlie vaunted of Visibilitie to vanish in a vayne Smoake What 's visible but there-to Visibilitie In common doth though not a-lyke conveane Why should the Bryde without all Probabilitie Visible hers then singularlie wiene Thinges visible attour are not aye seene And thinges ev'n seene yet will escape Perception Of lightned Men and what perceived beene Mules agaynst that will madlie make Exception The Church was aye seene visible perceived Of cleare but no of rakie Eyes that raved Philomathes Whether wee haue anie such Foyle as you alleadge or you such Victorie as you presume Philadelphus you are al-wayes readie to sing your owne Triumph But now al-be-it wee haue indeede al-readie passed thorow these Markes where-in wee esteeme our selues strongest and that Eubulus hath I must confesse answered more than I exspected yet I pray you let vs heare what he hath to say agaynst the rest The next Marke is VNITIE and thus our Poet speaketh of it CHAPTER VI. UNITIE THis is another Marke truelie The Church must haue VNITIE As our Saviour hath fore-tolde One Shepheard and one Sheep-folde One is my Spouse one is my Loue One is my Darling and my Doue This is His House and at some-tyme Hee doth resemble it to a Vine HIS Father is the Husband-man A Branch is everie Christian. This is HIS Bodie mysticall The which HEE doth HIS Kingdome call Where-of Saynct Peter had the Keyes And his Successours haue all-wayes This is the Pillar and the Ground Where-in all Trueth is to bee found So lyke-wyse Saynct Paul sayeth One Baptisme and one Fayth And one LORD IESU Haue no Dissention amongst you Shew mee anie Companie That in all Poyntes doe agree Except the Holie Church of Rome Then will I bee converted soone Eubulus That which as I thinke I haue evinced of all your Man 's former Marks I affirme of this also That it is impertinentlie yea falselie produced for a proper Marke of the Church in so farre as it is a common condition of manie thinges yea all thinges that are hoc ipso quod sunt anum sunt even in that they are they are in that same one as all Schooles acknowledge The Devils are vnited for Satan's Kingdome is not divided against it selfe And Briggands banded to robbe and sheede Blood are one So as still you see that your Man's mayne Proposition of his mayne Argument is vayne and sophisticall Neyther will VNITIE in all poynts ever conclude more of the Church of CHRIST than of the Antichristian bodie except VNITIE in all poynts be modified and of an indefinite VNITIE it be defined an VNITIE in all poynts of Trueth To which only demonstratiue Marke as I haue shewed of all the former so this of VNITIE must bee reduced also if there-on you would builde anie sure Conclusion For of the Antichristian Companie the holie Ghost hath in playne Tearmes fore-tolde These haue one mynde and shall giue their power and authoritie to the Beast and a little after For GOD hath put in their Hearts to fulfill his will and to doe with one consent for to giue their Kingdomes to the Beast vntill the wordes of GOD bee fulfilled And this is indeede that VNITIE where-of your Men so much glorie even a Conspiracie in Errour and no true VNITIE in Trueth as their manifolde and shamelesse Shiftings in a cleare evidence of a selfe-accusing-guiltinesse from subduing their doctrine to just examination by Scripture the sole Rule of Veritie make more than manifest Now Satan never yet envyed VNITIE in Errour or ZEALE in Superstition Philomathes Well to let this goe with you of VNITIE which you haue indeede evinced of the former that it is no proper Marke yet as I sayde and you also admitted of the others so you can not denye of VNITIE but that it is a true Attribute of the Church and that therefore our Man's Argument for the Church of Rome concludeth verie clearlie thus The Church of CHRIST must bee a Companie keeping Vnitie in all Poynts But onlie of all Companies the Church of Rome keepeth Vnitie in all Poynts There-fore the Church of Rome is the onelie true Church of CHRIST Eubulus I will not quarrell the forme of your Syllogisme for that your Assumption hath the nature of a negatiue Position I say your Proposition is sophisticall and your Assumption shameleslie false where-by your Conclusion commeth to nought As for the Proposition though you shold modifie your indefinite all Poynts to definitlie all Poynts of Trueth yet hath it in-folded a deepe Deceit For if it bee vnderstood of All Poyntes of Trueth so absolutelie as who keepe not Vnitie in all and everie poynt there-of bee excluded from the Title of CHRIST HIS Church then is your Proposition perniciouslie false And your Man would but fraudule●…tlie put foorth a bloodie Table of Proscription where-by cruellie to forfault manie good Christian and Church from the Communion of the Bodie