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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A01335	Tvvo treatises written against the papistes the one being an answere of the Christian Protestant to the proud challenge of a popish Catholicke: the other a confutation of the popish churches doctrine touching purgatory & prayers for the dead: by William Fulke Doctor in diuinitie.	Fulke, William, 1538-1589.; Allen, William, 1532-1594. Defense and declaration of the Catholike Churches doctrine, touching purgatory, and prayers for the soules departed.; Albin de Valsergues, Jean d', d. 1566. Notable discourse.	1577 (1577)	STC 11458; ESTC S102742	447,814	588

may be remitted that is to say either made lesse or els wholy released before the due execution of Gods sentence be extremely done For it is not ment that the freedom which man may haue after full aunswere and payment of his sinnes in that place of punishment temporall shoulde be properly termed a remission or pardon For that is aunswerable to Gods iustice and although there were no prayers or other wayes of helpe yet the patient by toleration in time might vnder the protection of Christes merites make full satisfaction and so be discharged who being a vessell of mercy can not be damned But when we say that sinnes may be forgeuen in the next worlde Gods Church which is the mother of all beleuers teacheth vs that some parte as well of the rigour and extremity of the paine as of the time and continuance thereof though God him selfe hath appointed that punishment may yet be mercyfull released 3 S. Augustine is much beholding to you that you giue men to witte that when he was wrangled withall by any misbeleuer he had occasion to wrest the Scripture otherwise then the words imported so you iudge of him because he would not for your pleasure expound the fire of tryall 1. Cor. 3. For your fire of purgatory But concerning this testimony of Augustine it maketh not so much against vs but it maketh as litle for you For if you haue translated his words according to his meaning as you haue not according to his wordes he vnderstandeth by this place remission of the paynes and not of the sinnes which helpeth you nothing to that which you haue taken in hand to proue that sinnes are forgiuen after this life And so he seemeth to say in the 13. chapter of the same booke Non autem omnes veniunt in sempiternas poenas quae post illud iudiciū his sunt futurae qui post mortem sustinent temporales nam quibusdam quod in isto non remittitur remitti in futuro saeculo id est ne futuri saeculi aeterno supplicio puniantur iam ante dixi All they come not into euerlasting paynes which after that iudgement shall be to them that after death suffer temporall paynes for I haue sayd already that vnto some that which is not remitted in this world is remitted in the world to come that is that they should not be punished in the world to come In these wordes he speaketh of release of paynes but not of forgiuenes of sinnes But in the place by you alleged if the words be truly translated according to the discourse of that chapter he affirmeth that after the resurrection those paynes which the spirites of the dead doe suffer there shal be some vpon whom mercy shall be bestowed so that they shall not be cast into eternall fire c. So that Augustine in this place speaketh not of such sinnes as are remitted in purgatory but of such persons as are forgiuen in the last iudgement when purgatory is ended Wherefore though Augustine erred in this place yet he erred from your cause And whereas you affirme in the margent that sometime Gods iustice is aunswered fully by the payne of the party you are contrary to the rest of your family for they hold that the generall prayers and sacrifices of your mother Church doe help them Yea the maister of the sentence holdeth that a poore man hauing equall merites with a rich man though there be no special prayers masses fasting or almes done for him is holpen as well by the common almes and prayers as the rich man for whom speciall prayers and large almes are done lib. 4. dist 45. For otherwise the opinion of merites could not stand And vnlesse M. Allen thinke that all such masses and prayers in which the dead are generally commended be vnprofitable his proposition can not stand by his owne learning That the faithfull soules in Purgatory being novv past the state of d●seruing and not in case to helpe them selues may yet receiue benefit by the vvorkes of the lyuing to vvhome they be perfectly knitte as fellovv membres of one body CAP. II. 1 BVt now what meanes may be founde to ease our brethern departed of their paine or what wayes can be acceptable in the sight of God to procure mercy and grace where the sufferers them selues being out of the state of deseruing and place of well working can not helpe them selues nor by any motion of minde atteine more mercy ▪ then their life past did deserue VVhere shall we then finde ease for them surely no where els but in the vnity and knotte of that holy fellowship in which the benefite of the heade perteyneth to all the membres euery good worke of any one membre wōderfully redoūdeth to all the rest This society is called in our Crede communio Sanctorum the communion of Sainctes that is to say a blessed brotherhood vnder Christ the heade by loue and religion so wroght and wrapped together that what any one membre of this fast body hath the other lacketh it not what one wanteth the other supplieth when one smarteth all feeleth in a maner the like sorow when one ioyeth the other reioyseth withall This happy society is not impared by any distance of place by diuersity of Gods giftes by inequality of estates nor by chaunge of life so farre as the vnity of Gods spirit reacheth so farre this fellowship extēdeth this city is as large as the benefit of Christes death taketh place Yea within all the compasse of his kingdome this fellowship is founde The soules and sainctes in heauen the faithfull people in earth the chosen children that suffer chastisement in purgatory are by the perfect bonde of this vnity as one abundeth ready to serue the other as one lacketh to craue of the other The soules happely promoted to the ioye of Christes blessed kingdome in this vnitie and knotte of loue perpetually praye for the doubtfull state of their owne fellowes beneth the carefull condition of the membres belowe continually crieth for helpe at their handes in heauen aboue Nowe the membres of Christes Church here yet trauelling in earth they pray together they faste together they desire together they deserue together Christ our heade in whose bloude this city and society stand●th will haue no worke nor way of saluation that is n●t common to the whole body in generall and peculierly proffitable to supply the neede of euery parte thereof He which instituted the blessed sacraments will haue them in this vnity to worke in common as farre as the ende of eche of their institutions requireth and out of it to haue no force at all he that maketh all our workes acceptable though they be done of one will haue them perteine to all the holy sacrifice of the Church by the will of the author and the likenesse of the exemplar as in deede being in an other maner the very selfe same is made so common that it ioyneth the Sainctes

of the exposition of the fathers Hieronym in his commentary vpon this place expoundeth the Northe and the Southe not for the states of grace or wrath but for the places of rewarde or punishment of them that die Si dignos Austro fructus attulit in plaga iacebit Australi Nec est aliquid lignum quod aut ad Aquilonem non sit aut ad Austrum If it haue brought forth fructes worthy of the South it shal lye in the Southe coste Neither is there any tree but it falleth either to the North or to the South As for your babling of the Saduces secte and doubting of the resurrection bidde your Popes and Cardinalls take heede of it Pope Iohn the 23. was condemned for it in the Councell of Constance Epicureisme and Saduceisme is more common at Rome then Christianitye 4 Nowe for the other texte recited out of S. Matthewes Gospell of the double waye the one to perdicion and the other to saluation there is almost none so simple but he seeth that it maketh no more for your purpose then the other For there as our aduersary can not but knowe though to deceiue he liste dissemble mention is made and the meaning is only of these two wayes in this worlde and life in one of which being full of ease and libertie the wicked walketh towardes hell or damnation In the which waye the riche man and vnmercifull tooke his time of whome Abraham said that he had receiued good in his dayes In the other being both straite and harde the small numbre of the chosen take their iourney towardes heauen And yet if you thinke good you maye ioyne the place of temporall punishment for sinne in the worlde to come to the straite and painefull passage of the elect though perhaps all they entre not thereby And so shall you finde this place not onely nothing to further their cause but somewhat to helpe ours 4 If there be but two wayes in this life there are but two abiding places after this life If there be more then two after this life then there be more wayes then two in this life Controll our Sauiour Christes partition as vnperfect if you list You will saye that needeth not for purgatory after this life is that straight gate or a pece of it what els It is not enough for our English Anaxagoras to exclude our opinion out of these places but he must finde purgatory in them also This is plaine to make quidlibet ex quolibet But the commaundement of Christ marreth the market of this interpretation vnlesse you thinke when Christ willeth vs to striue to goe in by the straight gate that he biddeth vs striue to goe into purgatory 5 And so for the other taken out of the fift to the Corinth S. Augustine shall aunswere you and beare me witnesse it maketh nothing for you his wordes be these in his Encheridion This practise that Gods Church vseth in the commendations of the deade is nothing repugnant to the sentence of the Apostle where he saith that we all shall stande before the iudgement seate of Christ that euery one may receiue according to his desertes in the body either good or euill for this in his life and before death he deserued that these workes after his death might be profitable vnto him for in deede they be not profitable for all men and why so but because of the difference and diuersitie of mens liues whilest they were in this flesh c. And this same sentence the Doctor often repeteth almost in the same forme of wordes in diuers places both to correct their ignorance that mighe take a way prayers for the deade because they finde the sentence of Gods iudgement to be executed on man according to the deseruing of this liefe and no lesse to geue monition to the carelesse that they omitte not to doe well in this life vppon hope or presumption of other mens workes after their decease which as they be exceding beneficiall to many so they helpe none such as in their owne life woulde not helpe them selues The like declaration of this pointe hath S. Denyse in the 7. chapter of his Ecclesiasticall soueraignty which I omitte lest in this point by S. Augustine sufficiently auouched I weerye the reader without cause 5 And S. Ieronym with your owne canon law shall aunswere you that prayers preuayle not after this life 13. q. 2. In praesenti In this present world we know that we may be helped one of an other either by prayer or by councel but when we shall come before the iudgement seate of Christ neither Iob nor Daniel nor Noe can intreate for any man but euery man must beare his owne burden 6 The last obiection of the Angells wordes in the Apocalypse a●firming the state of all those that dye in our Lorde to be happy to be past trauell and in reste and peace they be properly spoken there of holy men that sheede their bloude in the times of persecution for Christes sake to geue them assured comforte after a litle toleration and patience in the rage of Antichrist of blessed and eternall reste and so the circumstance of the letter plainely geueth and so doeth S. Augustine expounde it And for such holy Martyrs it is needlesse to pray as to pray vnto them is most profitable Albeit the wordes are true and maye be well verified of all that passe hense in the happy state of grace being past the cares of this troblesome worlde and which is the greatest trauell of all other vtterly dispatched of the toile that sinners take in their wayes of wickednesse with freedome from sinne and all feare of sinne and damnation for euermore So that this reste from labour is no more but a happy ioye of conscience with securitie of saluation and peace in Christ iesu For which cause in the holy Canon of the Masse it is saide Christianos dormire in somno pacis in Christo quiescere That Christian folkes doe sleepe in the sleepe of peace and rest in Christ though for all that in the same place we aske Requiem refrigerium reste and refreshing for them And this holy peace from all toyle of the worlde and worme of tormented conscience the electe children of God in their fathers correction being assured of his eternall loue doe blessedly enioye But the wicked be in contrary case of whome it is saide non est pax impijs there is no rest or quietnesse to the wicked no not in their dayes of ioye much lesse in their infinite miserie of their euerlasting torments in the worlde to come Of whose vnhappy state the Prophet warneth vs thus againe Impij quasi mare feruens quod quiescere non potest The wicked be right like vnto the tumblinge and tossinge sea that neuer resteth The place of S. Iohn then being namely spoken of holy Martyrs that straight with out all paine after this life passe to heauen may yet very

the deade you followe your customable course of lying and sclaundering And yet we maye saye it is a greate preiudice against your purgatory and prayer which you make so necessary and about which no small parte of your religion is occupyed that it is not so much as once named in the scriptures But we saye and truely saye that neither the name nor the thinge it selfe is taught or can be proued by the scriptures so of all other heresies All trueth maye be proued by scripture either in plaine wordes or by necessary conclusion which is all one And therefore the Arians or Anabaptistes haue no more helpe of this argument then you Papistes As for the perpetuall virginitie of the mother of Christ as we can thinke it is true so because the scripture hath not reueled it neither perteineth it vnto vs we make no question of it what scriptures you haue alleaged and howe falsely you slaunder vs for denying the canonicall scripture is set forth at large allready 3 But yet one of these ouerthrowers frameth as he supposeth his negatiue argument to the more sure shake of our faith herein after this sorte In the olde lawe all sacrificies and expiations both appointed and reckoned euen for the smallest offensies that man coulde commit yet there was neuer no sacrifice for the purgation of the dead● How Lorde like Maister Grindall made his Argument here VVhere he shoulde plainely haue inferred the contrarie after this sorte There was no sinne so small vnpardoned but there was some sacrifice of release or expiation thereof in the olde lawe ergo if any man were bounde with sinne were it neuer so small whether he were aliue or deade there was some appointed purgation therefore For there is no consequence nor any apparance of right deductiō to inferre vpon the naming or rehearsall of all sinnes the peculiar mentioning or plaine rehersall of such persons as maye be burdened with those sinnes There were sacrificies then in the olde lawe for wemen as well as men for the Princies no lesse then for the poore for the priest for the people for the deade as well as for the liue And where there was no difference nor respect of persons in that point there was no peculiar mention to be made for the distinction of states The peculiar rehersall therefore was onely made for the diuersity of offensies and not alwayes for the difference of persons And nowe the departed in faith being but distincted by state of life and not by bonde of sinne from those that be aliue must needes in the case of like sinne for the vnitie which he is in haue the like remedie as the lieue hath for the same sinne And therefore to helpe your ignorance some thing thus you must learne that there was no peculiar sacrifice for the deade as though they were not of the common body with the liuing but they had the same sacrifice done for them that the liuing in this worlde in the like case of sinne or punishment for offensies had Doe you not see Gods Church Maister Grindall sacrifice for the deade but not for them by a peculiar meanes of offeringe but the very selfe same oblation she euer vseth for her Children departed that she practiseth for her faithfull flocke a liue And in all other practises there is a perfect communitie of all benefites betwixt the deceased and their brethern remayning yet in this worlde And therefore when you seeke for sacrifice in the olde lawe looke not for any distincte waye of handeling their offensies which is not common with the lyuing But consider what there was practised for the release of the smaller trespassies and that was vsed for both the liue and dead without distinction Marke what sacrifice was for the abating of any paine due for great offensies and the same shall be well vnderstande to be with out difference practised for the liue and deade together That therby we may by good reason conclude seeing sacrifice was then offered for purgation of euery light offense that it was done for all states of persons that were either in this life or after their death to be perfectely clensed from the same Although the facte of Iudas Machabeus be a plaine proofe that there was a common knowen ordre of sacrifice for else howe coulde he haue conceyued any such sacrifice neuer hearde of before howe coulde he limite the value of procurement therof by a certaine summe for euery soule deceased howe coulde he gather in pretence of a thinge neuer vsed before the peoples almes with out their murmure or motion therein VVhy woulde he haue sent mony to Hierusalem to procure that which had no example in the lawe or vse in the Church was he so ignorant that he knew not their ordre herein or so vnwise to haue sent his mony for nothing S. Augustine aunswering an heretike that by the authoritie of the facte of Iudas woulde haue proued that by sacrifice men might be saued though they died vnbaptized or in deadly sinne sayth vnto him that he is not hable to proue that Iudas or any other in the lawe offered for his freinde or any man else being vncircumcised no more then the Church nowe practiseth for any man not baptised VVhereby he plainely confesseth that the lawe had a sacrifice for the deade which being vrged by that heretike he might haue denied with good helpe of his cause and aunswere to the aduersary but that the contrary case was so cleare not onely by that booke which he tooke for Canonicall scripture as before is proued but also by the full consent of all the Church of God which both by plaine practise and most graue ordinaunce had from Christes time set forth and approued the vndoubted trueth thereof 3 To passe ouer your saucines and scurrilitie being as agreeable to your profession and leuitie as vnmeete for his grauitie and dignitie whom you name the argument is of more force then you haue wit to vnderstand But to beate it smaller that it may enter into your head or at least wise that they which haue any brayne in their heades may conceiue the strength of it I will vse your owne figure and mode All lawfull sacrifices were prescribed by the lawe sacrifice for the deade was not prescribed by the law therfore it was no lawfull sacrifice you aunswere that the rehersal of sinnes proueth not the peculiar persons that may be burdened with those sinnes And with this foolish distinction you thinke you haue broken out of prison But you that so like a proud foole take vpon you to help his ignorance bewray your owne intollerable arrogancie and more then beastly blindnes For if you had redde the law whereof you make your selfe such a Rabbine Leuit. 4. 5.12 15. you should haue seene the peculiar mentioning and playne rehersing of all such persons for whome sacrifice was to be offered both men and women the Princes and the priuate persons the Priest

and the whole congregation yea and speciall regard of the oblations of the poore And in the perticular rehearsing of diuerse kind of persons and the forme of the sacrifice named according to euery perticular state it is so farre of that the deade shall be reckned that such thinges are enioyned euery of these perticular persons to doe as it is playne that none but the liuing could offer or haue sacrifice offered for thē What law was appoynted touching lamenting for the deade you may reade Leuit. 21. how the Priest was forbidden to lament for any but speciall persons also Nu. 19. diuerse ordinances concerning the deade yet neuer any sacrifice or prayer for the deade When Nadab and Abihu were slayne their father and brethren were forbidden to mourne for them the people were permitted By all which it appeareth not only that no sacrifice for the deade was offered but that they were so separated from the liuing that the Priestes might haue nothing to do with any of them but in speciall cases And as for your common shift of the common body of the liuing and the deade helpeth you nothing for although all the faithfull make one body in Christ yet there is one state of them that worke an other of them that are iudged according to their works to put no diuersitie betwene them is not to make a communion but a confusion But of all other it is a clerkely cōclusion that you send M. Grindall to looke vpon the example of your masse whith is a sacrifice both for the quicke the deade and thereof will proue that the olde lawe had but one sacrifice for the liue and the deade In deede there you were to good for him if the practise of the popish church be a good president for Moyses to follow in his law we will reason no longer But the fact of Iudas Machabaeus putteth all out of doubt Surely then the fact of euery man that transgressed the lawe shall be sufficient to proue what the lawe was and not the booke of the lawe For else how coulde he haue conceiued any sacrifice which he neuer hearde of How did Dauid conceiue the cariage of the arke in a newe cart which he neuer heard of except it were of the Philistians that sent home the arke in a cart And euen so it is like that Iudas Machabaeus if he deuised not that sacrifice of his owne head yet tooke it by imitation of the Gentiles whose studies and practises your owne author confesseth were more frequented in those dayes among the Iewes then the preaching or keeping of the law Finally to all the other howe 's and whyes I aunswere with one word he had no warrant of his fact in the law of god Neither doth S. Augustine sufficiently answere the heretike that would proue by that fact that men dying in deadly sinne might be saued by sacrifice For though they were not vncircumcised for whom Iudas sent an offering yet they dyed in deadly sinne and such sinne as for which they were iustly slayne as your owne author confesseth for the idolatrous iewells that they had euery one in their bosomes Concerning the authoritie of that booke and how it was taken by Augustine I haue aunswered enough before 4 But here will I nowe make an ende desiring thee gentle reader with such indifferency to weighe the doing and dealing of both parties as the importaunce of the cause the loue of truth the necessary care of thine owne saluation and thy duety towardes God and his Church requireth There is none of all those pointes which the vnfaithfull contention of our miserable age hath made doubtefull in which thou mayest better beholde howe vpright the wayes of trueth and vertue be and howe pernicious double and deceitfull the dealing of heresie is The one is vpholden by the euidēt testimony of holy scripture the other mainteineth her traine by bolde deniall of scriptures the one seeketh with humility the meaning at their mouthes whome God hath vndoubtedly blessed with the gifte of vnderstanding and interpretation the other by singular pride foundeth her vnfaithfulnesse vpon the phantasies of light and lewde persons that are pufte too and fro with euery blaste of doctrine The one resteth vpon the practise of all nations the vsage of all ages and the holy workes both of God and man the other holdeth wholy by contempte of our elders flatery of the present dayes and vnhappy waste of all workes of vertue religion and deuotion the one followeth the gouernours and appointed pastours of our soules whose names be blessed in heauen and earth the other ioyneth to such as for other horrible heresies wicked life are condemned both a liue and deade of the vertuous and can not for shame be named of their owne scholars The one hath the warraunt of Gods whole Church the other standeth on curse and excommunication by the grauest authority that euer was vnder God in earth To be shorte trueth is the Churches dearlinge heresie must haue her maintenaunce abrode This one holy Catholike and Apostolike Church is it wherevnto we owe all duety and obedience both by Gods commaundement and by the bonde of our first faith and profession There is no force of argument no probability of reason no subtelty of witte no deepe compasse of wordely wisedome no eloquence of man nor Angell nor any other motion that can be wrought in the world that shoulde make a man doubte of any article approued by her authority And if thou yet feare to geue ouer thy whole sense and thine owne selfe to so carefull a mother in whome thou wast begotten in thy better birth compare our Church with theirs compare her authority and theirs her maiesty and theirs 4 In Gods name let the readers waye indifferently the doinges and dealinges on both partes the cause the trueth their saluation the Church and the glory of God aboue all thinges And as they see this pointe handeled so let them iudge of the reste The trueth is vpholden by euident testimony of scripture the error by custome practise and iudgement of men The trueth seeketh vnderstanding of the scriptures of the spirite of God in the scriptures error at the mouthes of mortall men The trueth resteth vpon the onely authority of God error vpon the maintenaunce of carnall deuises The trueth is founded vpon the doctrine of the Prophets and Apostles the other vpon Gentiles and heretikes Trueth is embraced of the pure and primitiue Church of Christ error is continued from a corrupt state of the Church of Christ vnto a plaine departing awaye into the church of Antichrist To be short trueth is tryed by the worde of God heresie by the inuention of men The holy Catholicke and Apostolicke Church is that which humbly obeyeth the word of God and the Synagoge of Satan is that which arrogantly challengeth authoritie aboue the worde The true Church shall neuer decaye but alwaye reigne with Christ the false Synagoge shall daily more and more decaye