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A10620 An animadversion to Mr Richard Clyftons advertisement Who under pretense of answering Chr. Lawnes book, hath published an other mans private letter, with Mr Francis Iohnsons answer therto. Which letter is here justified; the answer therto refuted: and the true causes of the lamentable breach that hath lately fallen out in the English exiled Church at Amsterdam, manifested, by Henry Ainsworth. Ainsworth, Henry, 1571-1622? 1613 (1613) STC 209; ESTC S118900 140,504 148

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excōmunication Fourthly if some would thus cavil against Moses lavv which requireth the hands of al the people to stone a wicked man and ask whether women also and children must be present cast stones he might have as good colour for his question as have these if not better For these say in Jsrael such as would not hearken to the Preists judges were to dye by the hands of the people and the proportion that they cast for the people now is that they shal put the sentence in execution by avoiding the excōmunicated persons Now I think they wil have women yea and children also to avoyd excōmunicated persons so then by proportion women children in Israel must cast stones at malefactors Yea this may be further urged against them by reason of a pregnant note which they give in their Treatise on Mat. 18 that that is such a church as where women may speak are to be heard in their cases and pleas as wel as men but it is not permitted to women to speak in the Churches of the saincts c. wher eyther they aequivocate with this word speak using it in divers senses a cōmon practise of such as would deceiv or they must permitt women to have voices and suffrages as wel as men in al their churches of Elders and so by their proportion women were to cast stones in Israel For if women are to do execution now why not then also 5. Now wheras they intimate to the reader as if we vvould have al men examine rebuke admonish in the presence of the Elders they doo but labour the disgrace of the holy order in the church wher the Minister as the mouth of the congregation propoundeth examineth and carieth matters and then the people if there be defect or default may speak in due order but if in matter or manner they transgress they are to bear their rebuke Al things in the publick judgments of the church being caried holily peaceably and by the government of the Elders even as in elections of officers in prophesie or any other thing wherin men have libertie for to speak And when the Ministers cary things well we commonly find it as in Act. 15.12 that al the multitude keepeth silence otherwise strife and sometime disorder dooth often arise by the evil dealing of the Elders 6. It is also to be observed how these our opposites wil require by their proportion from Israel children to stone their parents wives their husbands and servants their maysters by avoiding their cōmunion yet wil they not have thē to be of that church which is to hear examine judge of the causes why their parents c. should be stoned and excōmunicated not bound to be present at the trial of their case Did ever any cōmon wealth in the world require such execution at the hands of wives children and servants and yet teach them so little to honour and regard their parents as not to think themselves bound to hear their case tried but upon the Elders report to stone their own fathers husbands maisters which doo take it on their death that they are innocent Against 1. Cor. 12.21 26. which was by some alleged they except 1. that the Apostles purpose is not to speak of cases and pleas about syn and of the manner of dealing therin but of the diversity of gifts and functions given for the help and service of all to the building up of the body of Christ. I answer 1. the Apostle speaketh generally of the diversities of gifts Ministeries and operations in the church as they are given to to every man to profit with all and nameth in particular the gifts operations and ministeries and among the rest the governours or governments and ther is no church action which the Apostle purposeth not in that his dispute to comprehend their first exception therfore is not true 2. Neyther dooth it agree with it self for if he speak as they confess of the diversity of gifts and functions given for the help and service of all to the building up of the body of Christ then can he not but speak of cases and pleas about syn seing they are to be judged by the gifts and functions of the church they are for the help and service of all they help to build up the body of Christ. Vnless they would have us think that the Elders prelacie which they strive for is none of those gifts or functions nor for the help and service of all nor for the building up of Christs body but of Antichrists this we wil grant them to be true 2. Secondly they except the Apostle sheweth it by the similitude of the natural body and faculties and applieth it to the feeblest members even the yongest children newly baptised vers 13 ●22 to whom he appointeth not the cases of syn to be brought to judgment and censure as we hereupon would inferr I answer in thus speaking they injurie us and the truth it self Would we inferr that the judgmēt of syn should be brought to infants newly baptised because we say not the Elders onely but the church is to judge as Paul teacheth And would th'Apostle also inferr think they that infants should rebuke and judge unbeleevers because he sayth when the whole church is come togither in one if al prophesie and ther come in one that beleeveth not he is rebuked of al is judged of al. And did Iosua also mean that the yongest children newly circumcised threw stones at Achan because he sayth al Jsrael stoned him we had not thought wise men would ever have made such inferences And what vveight is in their reasoning from infants that if other besides Elders may judge synners then infants if not infantes then no other but Elders Might not men thus elude al Pauls arguments As when he sayth the manifestation of the spirit is given to every one to profit withal they to conclude therfore the yongest children newly baptised can manifest the spirit to the profit of others We have bene all made to drink into one spirit therfore infants also were partakers of the Lords supper Jf one member be had in honour all the members reioyce with it therfore even the sucking babes for they also are members But did not these men think to find babes of us that they have given such an answer to our allegations 3. Thirdly they except that this similitude might likewise be applied to Jsrael which we grant Also we acknowledge that it may not eyther then or now pervert Gods ordinance about the Elders hearing c. They say the governours are set in the Church for that use I answer not the governours onely this is that which they should prove They are to govern the Church in al actions but not to doo them alone Also they say al members have not fit gifts for examining of persons deciding of questions c.