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A10609 A remonstrance: or plaine detection of some of the faults and hideous sores of such sillie syllogismes and impertinent allegations, as out of sundrie factious pamphlets and rhapsodies, are cobled vp together in a booke, entituled, A demonstration of discipline wherein also, the true state of the controuersie of most of the points in variance, is (by the way) declared. Sutcliffe, Matthew, 1550?-1629, attributed name. 1590 (1590) STC 20881; ESTC S115774 171,783 224

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Demonstration If no particular Congregation haue priuiledge greater giuen then other Demonstrat then must eyther no Eldershippe be at all or else in eurie Congregation But euerie Congregation hath like priuiledge because it is a perfect bodie Ergo To the Assumption No Congregation hath anie priuiledge for Eldership Remonstrance and yet is a bodie perfect of it selfe To adde anie thing to the perfection of Arte is curiositie to the perfection of nature monstruousnes as for the Charter of the priuiledge of your Eldership you haue not shewed it Let our Syllogisme be this If euery Congregation haue like priuiledge then euery one or none must haue Doctors But euery one neede not but where it may be as you say Ergo none must haue a Doctor or else your owne collection is foolish The 4. Demonstration The same warrant that is for an Eldershippe in one place is the warrant to haue it in all Demonstrat for GOD tyeth it not to Churches in cities but to the Churche But there is a warrant to haue in some Ergo in all To the Maior You say the verie trueth Remonstrance for your Consistoriall Eldership is warranted in no place as for pastorall Eldershippe it is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 expounde it howe you will for towneship or citie although Paul and Barnabas ordeyned them Actes 14. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 through Iconium Lystra c. for the commoditie of the Church To the Minor The 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 your fansied Eldership appeareth in no place If any man be contentious for it as for a diuine institution the Churches of God haue receiued no such custome for 1550. yeres together The Assertion That the Eldership is perpetuall Demonstration The 1. Demonstration If the causes why Christ would haue an Eldership be perpetual then is the thing it selfe perpetuall but the causes vz. to gouerne the Church by the rules of the worde Ecclesiastically are perpetuall Ergo. The Antecedent is true if all the causes be perpetuall Remonstrance but here is mention onely of the finall cause But a man may atteyne well to the ende of gouernment Ecclesiasticall and peace of conscience without the complot of this Eldership Ergo all this is but a strong imagination Why man cannot the Church be gouerned by the rules of the worde vnder no kind of persons gouernment but of such an Eldership The 2. Demonstration If Christ bee the authour and left it by his Apostles to be established Demonstration then it is perpetuall But Christ is the Authout in that hee gaue giftes for the particular members and the whole bodie thereof So it appeareth 1. Cor. 12.12 And the Apostles not going beyonde their commission established it Ergo it is perpetuall To the Maior It is not necessarily true Remonstrance for Christ by his spirite was the Authour of that which the Apostles established for absteining from blood and strangled yet was not this perpetuall To the Minor The very place which you meane but quote wrong vz. 1. Cor. 12.12 and afore neither prooueth anie giftes giuen to the particular members of any such eldership nor to the whole bodie of it the place is as the body is one and hath many members al the members of that one body being many is but one body so Christ What doeth this proue any giftes giuen either to the particular members or whole bodie of your Eldership The giftes that a litle afore are reckoned to be seuerally giuen to seueral persons are The worde of wisedome the worde of knowledge faith giftes of healing the working of great or miraculous workes prophesie discerning of spirites diuersitie of tongues and interpretation of tongues If enery of these be a seuerall gift for a seueral officer in your Elderships then in steede of three vz. Doctors Pastors and Elders for I think you now haue learned of the French discipline to exclude Deacons you haue nine officers in al. To runne ouer therfore but those officers you are hitherto agreed on which of these seuerall giftes shall the pastour haue which the Doctour and which the Elders He that hath the worde of wisedome shall he not haue the worde of knowledge nor faith and he that hath faith the last of these three shall he be knowne by it as by a specificall difference from the rest and haue neither of the other and hee that hath knowledge shall he neither haue wisedome nor faith Here you had neede to haue Ariadnes threede to winde your selues out of this Labyrinth and how will ye accommodate the other sixe giftes and to whom the most whereof if not all are long agone ceassed I knowe you cannot shew an ocular demonstration of these sixe giftes remaining and atchieued not by industry but without all ordinary meanes as it was then in any Eldership or Synode in the world nor euer shal be able if you liue out Methuselah his yeeres You see then the grosse absurdities that followe your appropriating and tying of seuerall giftes to your seuerall and peculiar officers yet is it almost the onely reason in substance which with a little diuersitie of dressing you serue out in twentie seuerall dishes And you may with confusion of faces acknowledge your licentious boldenesse in abusing the Scriptures both here and elsewhere to make shewe of seruing your turnes Which ariseth hereof that you bring not your senses to the scripture but draw the Scripture that is not of priuate interpretation vnto your owne fantasticall senses and vnderstandings The 3. Demonstration Whatsoeuer is commanded and neuer repealed the Church must receiue that as perpetuall But such is the gouernment of the Church by the Eldership Demonstration in that S. Paul mentioneth them and are to be esteemed as commandements of the Lord. 1. Cor. 14.37 Ergo To the Maior One instance vndoeth this to absteine 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 from strangled Remonstrance was a commandement neuer repealed yet not binding vs nor perpetuall To the Minor That is not the meaning of S. Paul Whosoeuer is a Prophet or spirituall let him acknowledge that the things which I write vnto you are the Lords commandements what for a presbytery or eldership where is any such commandement in S. Paul if it be we embrace it as the Lords The wordes alleadged are spoken of those Prophesyings in course by any Christian to whom it was reueiled which was an vse of the primitiue Church yet not retained now in any the reformed Churches and is condemned euen by our Consistorials in the Barrowists a broode of their owne hatching At Geneua Caluin once erected such prophesyings at which a learned Phisition woulde often speake against the course of the doctrine of Predestination in that sort as Caluin taught it whereupon Caluin caused that Exercise to be strangled in his swadling clothes so that a more pregnant place could not be brought to proue some commaundements of Christ vnto the first Church to be such as cannot be
he suffer vs to be lawlesse Ergo he hath giuen vs the vse of Christian libertie and the gifts of his spirit to his Church to be disciplined thereby in matters not contained in Scripture els it were no gift to gouerne if all were specificallie set downe Diuersities of graces one spirite diuersities of ministrations one lord diuersitie of operations one God The difference is in the maner of dispensatiō not in the things dispensed and yet one and the same Christ in no maner of prescript gouernance to be accused of caring more or of caring lesse for the gouernment of his Church vnder the Gospell or vnder the law The 8. Demonstration Demonstration He that was as faithfull as Moses left as cleare instruction for the gouernment of the Church but Christ was as faithfull ergo Heb. 3.2 To the Maior He that was as faithfull as Moses Remonstrance left as cleare instruction for doctrine of faith and maners nay he left clearer To the Prosyllogisme But Moses gaue direction for euery particular ergo Absurditie of the Demonstrator according to this your sence adde vnto this but Moses from the Cherubin to the lowest pinne in the tabernacle ergo Christ from the Communion table to the sweeping of the Church Moses left an heape of ceremonies Ergo Christ must bring in another heape of ceremonies Moses made Iudicials Ergo Christ newe Iudicials Moses ten commaundements of old Ergo Christ ten commandements of new Aaron had an Ephod or superhumerall and girdle ergo euery thing must be proportioned in Christ of whom Moses was a figure or in Christians their gouernment of whom Moses was neither type nor figure The better is not the shadow of the worse but the worse of the better The 9. Demonstration If the word of God hath described sufficient ministeries and ministers for the building ordering of the Church Demonstra Rom. 12.5 6 7. 1. Cor. 12.28 Eph 4.11 then is our assertion true But it hath set downe sufficient for doctrine exhortatiō ouerseeing distribution c. ergo This reasoning inferreth Fallaciam consequentis Remonstrance fallacie of the consequent viz. à non distributis ad distributa To the Antecedent Albeit the word hath set downe sufficient ministers and ministration yet is your assertion short of the trueth The Assumption bewraieth your fals dealing in the Antecedent Although the word setteth downe different sortes and diuersities of functions and duties yet our Axiome and rule is Euery particular gift and qualitie maketh not a new setled office in the Church of God Except you will haue a seuerall officer also to shew mercic Rom. 12. that so your selues need to shew none till you haue that office E diuersitate accidentiū non sequitur diuersitas subiectorum but è contrar subiectum est principium emanationis accidentium If the word c. then is your assertion true say you Omne verum vero consentaneum euery trueth is agrecable to a trueth but this is manifestly false and vtterly vntrue that the word hath set downe the liuclie image or imaginarie face of your Church-discipline the counterfeit whereof you haue or pretend to haue This togither with the former is vntrueth disagreeing in it selfe and iarring with the trueth Let your owne reason march vpon you thus Either in those places you haue found Absurditie of the Demonstrator or in no place else can be found the foure states of Doctors and pastors gouernors and Deacons in vse perpetuall but not in those places which is the issue that we ioyne and therefore to seeke in so many bookes that which you deeme to bee alreadie found is a fond matter and alreadie frustrate or to seeke that neuer can be found is an infinite matter and better vnsought then found Quicquid sine fine fit aut infinitum est aut frustra fit vnlesse you doe as Inachus the good man that sought his daughter transformed into a Cowe sed quam non inuenit vsquam Esse putat nusquam atque animo peiora veretur The 10. Demonstration That gouernment which the Apostles taught and planted Demonstration is expressed in the word But the Apostles taught and planted pastours and teachers for instruction Elders for ouerseeing Deacons for distributing Ergo a certaine forme is expressed in the word To the Maior Indefinita locutio restringenda est Remonstrance First the Maior is ambiguous that which the Apostles c. It is not expressed so precisely what all the Apostles taught and planted in the Church but the summe substance of it Secondarily the Maior is not conuersiue or reciprocall in euery parte and therefore no demonstratiue proposition viz. to say that which the Apostles taught is expressed in the word that which is expressed in the word the Apostles taught To the Minor Answer is neither by writing nor by practise did they euer establish an vniformitie of externall Church discipline that perpetually to hold An instance is of your Laie and vnpreaching elderships being temporarie and liuing not of the Church hauing imposition of hands and interest of ordinatiō and censures contrarie to all Scripture and practise of antiquitie Or Deaconship of women neuer to bee continued for Apostolicall constitution as your selues for the most part confesse Note the apparence of this maner of reasoning Retortion retireth vpon your selues That which the Apostles taught and planted all or that our Sauiour taught himselfe is impossible to be expressed in the word for the whole world cannot containe the bookes but the Apostles our Sauior conuerted many millions taught many doctrines in particularitie of conference the Apostles planted many churches in the dispersion ergo it is a matter of impossibilitie to expres it so largely in the word Or that which is necessary to saluation is expressed in the word That which is vnnecessarie is silenced in the word Puritans Idaea or fantasie is not necessarie to saluation for many millions of soules of Martyrs others haue bene saued without it Ergo it is not specifically expressed in the word The 11. Demonstration All lawfull action and office in the building of the Church Demonstration is from heauen but euery thing in the ordinarie building of the Church from heauen is reueiled in the word Ergo euery lawfull office action is reuealed in the word An eleuen men must lift a strawe in this 11. Demonstration Remonstrance needes you must confesse a flat Paralogisme in this This is faultie both in forme and matter or professe your selfe absurd The medius terminus is disposed secundum habitudinem nullius figurae in no order either of moode or figure By transposition of the partes which may neuer be allowed in a Demonstration or this faire Demonstrator meaneth to conclude by an affirmatiue in the second figure To the Minor Whereas the Minor saith euery thing from heauen with a decent Parenthesis to salue an inconuenience in the ordinarie building is