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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A27035	A second true defence of the meer nonconformists against the untrue accusations, reasonings, and history of Dr. Edward Stillingfleet ... clearly proving that it is (not sin but) duty 1. not wilfully to commit the many sins of conformity, 2. not sacrilegiously to forsake the preaching of the Gospel, 3. not to cease publick worshipping of God, 4. to use needful pastoral helps for salvation ... / written by Richard Baxter ... ; with some notes on Mr. Joseph Glanviles Zealous and impartial Protestant, and Dr. L. Moulins character.	Baxter, Richard, 1615-1691.	1681 (1681)	Wing B1405; ESTC R5124	188,187	234

still maintain with the Church of England and the Parish Churches 8. Whether he put the case to them whether we that have Communion with them are Schismaticks if we also have Communion with others whom they prosecute 9. Whether he put the question to them whether we are lawfully silenced and if not whether rebus sic stantibus we are bound to forbear our Ministry 10. Whether he made them know that all the Ministers of England as well as we were forbidden to Preach c. unless they would Conform to that we are ready to prove unlawful And if it prove so whether they should all either have sinned or been silent in obedience 11. Whether he made them understand how many thousands there be in London that cannot have room in the Parish-Churches and the Nonconformists Churches set together but live like Atheists 12. Whether he acquainted them that the question is whether all godly dissenters that are cast out or cannot joyn in the Parish way of Liturgick Worship must till their judgments change give over all publick worship of God and be forsaken of all Teachers 13. Whether he acquainted them how loud a Call we had to preach in London first by the Plague then by the burning of the Churches the people being deserted by the Parish Ministers in these sad extremities 14. Whether he acquainted them with the Kings Licences and our being accused of Schism even when Licensed 15. Whether he acquainted them with what we have said for ourselves lately in divers Books or they judg'd us unheard 16. Whether they be singular or whether it be the judgment of the Protestant Churches in France that it is a sin for any to preach or publickly worship God when the King Bishops and Law forbid them And if so How long it hath been their judgment and why all their Churches ceased not when prohibited If not so How to know that our silencing Laws and Bishops must be obeyed and not theirs There is no understanding their answers till we know how the case was stated § 2. Mr. Clodes Letter is moderate and it 's like they took the case to be about proper separation and so say no more in the main than some Nonconformists have said against the Brownists But the Dr. hath dealt too unmercifully with Mr. Le Moine in publishing his Epistle when it was so easie to know how few if any would believe his story but take it for a confirmation how incredible our accusers are I mean his story that five years ago he heard one of the most famous Nonconformists preach in a place where were three men and three or fourscore women he had chosen a Text about the building up the ruins of Jerusalem and for explication cited Plinny and Vitruvius a hundred times c. I think I shall never speak with the person that will believe him sure I am London knoweth that the Nonconformists are the most averse to such kind of Preaching And I know not one of them that I can say ever read a quarter of Vitruvius I confess I never read a leaf of him This Monsieur would do well to tell us yet the name of the man that if living he may be call'd to account But I doubt he fell into some Tabernacle of which many are erected in place of the burnt Churches and perhaps heard the Conformist who had occasion to talk of architecture But yet I will not believe that either Conformist or Nonconformist would expose himself to common scorn by an hundred or twenty such citations § 3. And his description of the mens horrible impudence to excommunicate without mercy the Church c. imagining that they are the only men in England nay in the Christian world that are predestimated to eternal happiness c. and then pronouncing them intolerable sheweth that it is not us that he speaketh of nor any company that is known to us neither our Separatists here nor Anabaptists nor so much as the very Quakers holding any such thing § 4. And though he saith He was not at all edified by the Nonconformists preaching it followeth not that no others are Nor that none were edified in England or Scotland while publick Preachers went the Nonconformists way § 5. But because the Doctor chuseth this way I will imitate him though with the Apology that St. Paul gloried and give him notice of some Epistles of men that judged otherwise of the Nonconformists CHAP. XIV Epistles or Testimonies compared with the Doctors And notes on Mr. Joseph Glanvile's Book called The Zealous Impartial Protestant with a Letter of his to the Author heretofore and a Digression of Doctor L. Moulin § 1. IN general he that will read the Lives of many of the old Nonconformists Hildersham Dod and many such and Bishop Hall's Character of Dr. Reynolds and the late published Lives of Mr. Joseph Allen John Janeway Dr. Winter Mr. Macham Mr. Wadsworth Mr. Stubbs c. will see better what to judge of them than by our three French Epistles Yea Thuanus giveth a juster Character of many abroad that were of their mind And John Fox one of them of more § 2. And to our three French-men I will when it will be of more use than seeming vanity return you four French-mens Letters to my self Mr. Gaches Mr. Amyralds Mr. Le Blanks and Mr. Testards and if you will some Germans too Calvinists and Lutherans of a quite differing sense of us Nonconformists But Mr. Gaches being already in Print by the Duke of Lauderdales means 1660. and joyned with one of Mr. L'Angles I leave the Reader that desireth to see both § 3. But because Mr. Jos Glanvile was one of themselves here though an Origenist a most triumphant Conformist and not the gentlest contemner of Nonconformists and famous for his great wit I will repay the Dr. with the annexing one among many since of his Letters to my self which yet indeed I do not chiefly to ballance the Drs. but to help the Reader to understand Mr. Glanvile and his posthumous Book which I think not meet to pass by without some Animadversions Though I have great reason to hope that dying so soon after it and his preferment the experience of the Vanity of a flattering World might help to save him from impenitence As I have read in divers credible writers it was with Dr. Matthew Sutliffe that on his Death-bed he repented that he had written so much against the Reformers called Puritans I perceive Dr. Stillingfleet marvelleth that my own expectations of approaching Death do not hinder me from writing what I do for the Nonconformists whereas the truth is had not pain and weakness kept me from my youth as in the continual prospect of the Grave and the next life I had never been like to have been so much against Conformity and the present Discipline of this Church that is their want of Discipline as I have been For the World might have more flattered me and byassed my Judgment

and more than all the Conformists did And yet they were not more against it than Bishop Bilson who saith If the Magistrate forbid us our work we must go on and patiently suffer Mr. Hildersham was called Malleus Schismaticorum and yet he and I are Schismaticks with these men Mr. John Pagets Arrow against separation Mr. Bradshaw Mr. Gifford Mr. Ball c. have said enough But he that knoweth their controversie knoweth that it was none of the question whether it be lawful to Preach when the Magistrate forbids it or whether our Parish Churches and Diocesan be to be prefered before more Reformed Churches when they may be had But whether 1. The Parish Churches be no true Churches 2. Or such as it is unlawful to communicate with occasionally 3. Or constantly when no better can be had without greater hurt than benefit 4. Whether it be a duty to gather Churches or Preach publickly when it is like to do more hurt than good by the Magistrates opposition 5. Whether we should not quietly bear with that in a Church which we cannot reforme while no sin is put on us and the Communion of it is no worse than that of our Parish Churches In all these they were against the separatists and so am I. 6. Yea they pleaded the duty of obeying the Magistrate by forbearing to Preach when their Preaching was not necessary And so do I. § 10. One would think they that take Homilies for Sermon● should consess that the Nonconformsts writing against the prohibition of the Law was a Preaching or much more as it is more publick And did the Nonconformists write when forbidden so much as Cartwright Parker Sandford Fenner Gilby Ames and aboundance more have done yea and writ against Diocesanes and Conformity as these and Bradshaw Nichols Brightman Bayne Travers and aboundance more have even many hundreds as the Millinary Petition and the Country Complaints c. shew and yet did these men every one of them take it for sin to Preach because it was disobedience But nothing will convince some men § 11. But I appeal to the reason and humanity of mankind into what hands the silenced and persecuted Ministers are fallen Is it humane first to charge them with resisting the Laws by Preaching gathering Churches and administring Sacraments and making Canons and setting up new Discipline and to publish this to the land and world by such Authority as Arch Bishop Bancrofts Doctor Heylins c. till it is become their Common Charge to render them suspected and odious and till this be taken for undoubted truth And yet when it may serve for the silencing of us to maintain it with Dr. St. as that which he is certain of that the old Nonconfor mists were against such Preaching and assembling At this rate we have been hitherto accused and confuted Yea upon the foresaid Accusations their Canons were formed against the Nonconformists forbidding their Assembling Preaching calling themselves a distinct Church and a great deal more such and yet now the men that conform to these Canons are certain that they were made upon safe suppositions and not one of the Nonconformists were so guilty But doth not the Doctor thus grievously accuse the Church which he would defend Were they such men 1. that would so falsly accuse the Innocent 2. and use them so cruelly on such false accusations many of them dying in Prisons and many lay there long c. 3. and to form Canons on such false suppositions § 12. And I do not think I shall prevail with him to tell me whether he that thinks their Case and ours was so much the same doth verily believe 1. That if they had been in the Plague at London and seen the forsaken people crowding for instruction to prepare for death the Nonconformists such as Bradshaw Gifford Hildersham Greenham c. would have refused to Preach to them 2. And if the next year they had seen the Churches burnt and the City in ruins and few Parish Ministers officiate they would have thought i● a sin to Preach to the desolate City to assemble them to worship God and would have let them under so dreadful judgements live and dye like prophane Atheists 3. And if shortly after the King had Licensed them to assemble and Preach would they have refused it as a sin 4. And if the Prelates had prevailed by such a Parliament against the Kings License and he still had shewed the clemencie of his mind by his conivence and Magistrates were loth to execute the rigorous Laws and people would not inform and the informers repented and thousands more called to the Nonconformists for help than did there when Popery stuck still in the peoples hearts would they have thought all this no alteration of the Case to judge whether their Preaching would do good or hurt § 13. He tells us of the fewness of Nonconformists in King Edward's days And it is a wonder that so many in so short a time went so far in the Reformation as they did But so fast were they then in progress that even the Reformation of Church Laws then by the Commissioners agreed on was in many things so much better than our Canons as could we now but obtain the same would go far to heal us Let me instance in some and anticipate by it my answer to his after discourse against Parish Discipline 1. Cap. 18. de Heres They determine of the Salvation of the unbaptized Infants of believers the contempt only being damning 2. They define the Church visible Cap 22 to be the Congregation of all believers in which the Sacred Scripture is sincerely taught and the Sacraments at least in the necessary parts administred according to Christs institution But your Canons deny all such here to be true Churches save theirs as settled by Law 3. De Sacram. Cap 5. None to be admitted to the Sacrament till in the Church he have professed his faith And de Div. Off. Cap. 7 They that will receive the Communion must the day before come to the Minister that he may have time to excusse their Consciences and deal with them if they have done any thing ungodly or superstitionsly in which the Church is offended and also may try their faith that so he may either correct their ignorance or terrifie their Contumely or confirm their doubting For none ought to be admitted to the Holy table of the Lord that hath not a perfect belief The words need a gentle exposition but we have no power now to try mens knowledge or belief thus 4. Cap. 10. After evening prayers the Parish Minister Deason and Elders with the people shall call those that have been publickly perverse and scandalous to confess their sins and to be publickly corrected that the Church may be conformed by their wholesome correction And the Minister and Deacon with some Elders shall consult how the rest that are of vitious lives may first by brotherly love according to Christs prescript in the