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A20000 Dialogicall discourses of spirits and divels declaring their proper essence, natures, dispositions, and operations, their possessions and dispossessions : with other the appendantes, peculiarly appertaining to those speciall points, verie conducent, and pertinent to the timely procuring of some Christian conformitie in iudgement, for the peaceable compounding of the late sprong controuersies concerning all such intricate and difficult doubts / by [brace] Iohn Deacon, Iohn Walker... Deacon, John, fl. 1585-1616.; Walker, John, preacher. 1601 (1601) STC 6439; ESTC S323 312,434 405

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sir we also our selues would gladly see that same Iesus whom the world so egerly affecteth and followeth Andrew no sooner perceiued their sute but he acquainted Phillip therewith and they both together propounded the whole matter to Iesus Now then Iesus considering in the zeale of those greekes how all nations affected his preaching and miracles and came flocking vnto him he answered Andrew and Philip thus I perceiue by all signes that the very hower it selfe is now come wherein the sonne of man must be glorified in the actuall manifestation of his effectuall power vpon satan by his sufferings and death Which his said death I assure you must now necessarily succeed to the actuall accomplishment of that actuall conquest a very liuely resemblance whereof you may plainely behold in the wheate corne Which vnlesse it doth fall into the ground and die abideth alone but if it doe die it bringeth foorth abundance of fruit And euen so if this body of mine were once wrapped within the bowels of the earth by the dart of death there would vndoutedly spring many moe branches from thence as from that liuing roote which quickneth many to eternall life Neither let any be so dismaied with the sight of my death as that therefore they themselues would not gladly vnde●goe the like shame of the crosse For whosoeuer is so taken vp with the loue of this life as he would not for my sake be throughly willing to put ouer the same to the extreamest aduentures of all that man without question shall loose his life Whereas they that for my sake doe make themselues ready to forgoe if neede so require their very life in this world they shal be sure to preserue the same to eternall life Yea and euen you also your selues whom I haue especially chosen my ministers to declare my said death to the world if in your said ministery you desire to serue me aright you likewise must willingly follow me your Lord and Maister now leading this dance vnto death For wheresoeuer I am there must my ministers willingly be Neither haue I any other purpose in suffering death for you but to giue you an example to follow my steps Wherein if you readily serue me assure your selues that then my father in heauen will honour you highly In deed this corporall death I confesse is extreamely fearefull to flesh and bloud For euen my very soule I assure you is so intollerably tormented with the terrours thereof as I would earnestly entreate my father that the approching hower of this my death might presently passe away were it not that euen therefore I came vnto this hower In consideration of which my determined death I will the more earnestly endeuour my selfe to vndergoe with patience the whole bickering whatsoeuer by crying incessantly vnto my father and saying Oh father glorifie thy owne name in these my appointed sufferings Moreouer to the end you may plainely perceiue the fruits of my praier you your selues shal be eare witnesses of my father his answere from heauen saying My son I haue both glorified it before in thy conception thy birth thy baptisme thy fasting thy preaching and miracles and I will now glorify it againe in thy death and resurrection because therein shal be actually effected the finall ouerthrow of satan his kingdom And howsoeuer the people here present may happely imagine this sound from heauen to be but a thunder or some voice of an Angel at the most yet I assure you it is the very thundring speech of my father himselfe Neither came this voice onely because of my selfe but for your sakes especially To teach you assuredly that euen now is the iudgement and reformation of this world because euen now must the prince of this world be actually cast foorth from thence as touching his actuall possession Yea and this so glorious a conquest ouer satan must euen now be actually effected by the power of my death wherein if I were once lift vp from the earth and fastned withall vpon the crosse I would then actually determine the actuall dominion of the diuel yea and would effectually draw his captiuated prisoners vnder my princely regiment Now all this haue I purposely spoken vnto you to shew you before hand what death I must die that so soone as you perceiue me to giue vp the ghost you may then certeinely assure your selues that the whole worke of your redemption from satan from death and from hell is actually effected finished Thus much for analysing the text it selfe Wherin you haue heard the occasion coherence proceeding and the orderly conclusion of all the premisses Lycanthropus The exposition is plaine in my simple conceite let vs therefore now heare the testimonie of writers for further confirmation thereof Orthodoxus You shall And first to begin with Augustine he saith that by the iudgement of the world we must there vnderstand not the iudgement of damnation which is reserued to the last day but the iudgement of discretion which consisteth wholie in reforming the worlde by the expelling of Satan For the diuell saith he possessed mankinde and held them guiltie of punishment through the handwriting of sinne He did dominier in the harts of Infidels and drewe them being deceiued and captiuated to worship the creature by forsaking the Creator Howbeit through that selfesame faith of Christ which by his death and resurrection was actually established and through his precious bloud which was shedde for remission of sinnes a thousand beleeuers being then actually freed from the power of the diuell were effectually coupled to the bodie of Christ and by the operation of his spirit became liuely members of his mysticall bodie For so Christ expounds himselfe in the very next words saying Now is the prince of this worlde cast foorth Vnderstanding by the particle now that which was then to bee done at his death not that which he was finally to accomplish at the generall iudgement The Lord therefore foresawe that worke which he knewe should be effected after his death and glorification namely that many thousands throughout the world should faithfully beleeue in his death From whose harts the diuel who worketh effectually in thē before should actually be driuen out by Christs death and finally be subdued through faith in his name Exorcistes The diuell then it should seeme by your speech was neuer driuen foorth from the patriarkes before the passion of Christ. Orthodoxus Not so For Christ was the Lambe slaine from the beginning of the world Neither speake we in this place of the effectual but of the actuall conquest which he made ouer Satan Yea and this I further auouch that euen as the particle now in an especiall regard of Christes actuall conquest respecteth especially the verie hower of his death so surely in some consideration also of Christs effectuall eonquest the said particle now may likewise haue a more speeiall reference to
his preposterous actions Physiologus Preposterous actions indeed for the diuell to appropriate to himselfe the peculiar organon of the possessed mans soule Do you imagine the Lord euer propounded any such end to himselfe in the creation of bodies Or do you suppose the Lord euer granted so large a commission or that the diuell himselfe euer receiued such an absolute power concerning the bodies of men But go to what becomes of the soule or spirit all the while the diuell himselfe is really inherent in the possessed mans bodie Remaines the soule still in that bodie as in her proper habitation appointed of God till the day of her vtter dissolution by death Or is it for the whole time of the diuell his being in that bodie vtterly exiled thrust out from the same Lycanthropus Naie the soule is not euen then secluded or shut out from the bodie at al but continueth and lieth therein like a subdued prisoner fast bound hand and foote yeelding ouer to the diuel for that present his whole interest concerning the bodie and endureth perforce his inexorable and tyrannous crueltie Physiologus But tell me I pray you is not the soule or the minde of a man an incorporall substance or a spirit equally diffused and spred throughout the whole bodie and euerie part thereof according to powers and proportion not Arithmeticall but Geometricall so as all the members of the bodie it selfe doth effectually fulfill their peculiar offices accordingly They being the proper instruments of that selfesame minde or spirituall substance furdering freely the organicall operation thereof and excecuting readily whatsoeuer the minde shall giue them in charge And that therefore this selfesame bodie being thus vtterly depriued as you say for the present of the soules organicall operation is in effect but dead to the soule because wheresoeuer is an vtter priuation of the soules operations concerning the bodie there the life of that man is for the present dissolued Hold you all this for a truth Lycanthropus Yea I may not denie any part thereof Physiologus Seeing then you doe flatly conclude that the minde or spirit of man is the first substantiall forme or action in a liuing bodie and the originall or primarie cause of all effects whatsoeuer performed duly therein as being that onlie whereby we doe liue perceiue desire are moued in place and doe also vnderstand how is it possible that the soule or mind of a man being naturally in perpetuall motion should at any time lie idle in her bodie it being the proper Organon of the soule peculiarly appointed vnto it by God yea euen vnto the very dissolution thereof Or how should the said soule or minde lie bound like a prisoner in her proper bodie and not execute effectually those selfesame operations and powers which are peculiarly appropriated vnto it for the special seruice of that selfesame bodie Lycanthropus What meane you by the proper operations of the soule or minde Physiologus I vnderstand thereby all those peculiar actions which doe necessarily succeede the powers of the minde as proper effects peculiarly appertaining vnto it Otherwaies this peculiar power of the minde it being a meane betweene the substance and operations of the minde are the only efficient cause of the said mindes operations should be vtterly in vaine and to no purpose at all vnles the peculiar effects of that selfesame power did vndoubtedly and immediatly succeede the same Howbeit these selfesame effects cannot possibly succeed the saide power of the minde so long at the least as the Diuel himselfe really possessing the bodie doth wholy and absolutely take vp the said bodie with the members thereof to accomplish his mischieuous purposes As for example all the operations of the minde are either organical or animal The organical operations they are those seuerall actions which the minde can in no wise accomplish but in the bodie it selfe and by all the seuerall members thereof as by the proper instruments for that purpose peculiarly appointed vnto it Namely the nutritiue augmentatiue and generatiue operations appertaining especially to the vegetatiue life also the facultie of seeing hearing tasting smelling handling and of common sense moreouer the imaginatiue the memoratiue the concupiscible irascible and motiue faculties being all attendant vpon the sensitiue life Now then these and euerie of these are the organical operations of the minde yea and such also as the minde cannot possibly effect but in her owne bodie and by all the partes thereof as by the peculiar instruments appointed of God And therefore how should the possessed mans minde his bodie it selfe being thoroughly surprised and taken vp as you say by the Diuel at any hand accomplish either all or any one of these organical operations Lycanthropus As the minde her selfe cannot but be in perpetuall motion so surely being forcibly restrained from these her organical operations she must for the present be faine to put in execution and to practise as she may her animal operations Physiologus The animal operations they are such speciall actions as the minde of it selfe both can and may effectually accomplish without the bodie namely those three essential powers of the reasonable soule called the vnderstanding affection and will Whereof the two last are fitly termed the intellectiue appetite whereas the organical affections arising only from out of the hart the lyuer and entralles are called the sensitiue appetite But for as much as these animal operations all the while the minde it selfe is seated in her proper bodie are by the order of God appointed to be the directours and moderatours of all the organical operations I aske you by what meanes the mind may accomplish her appointed dutie concerning the direction and moderation of those her organical actions so long as the Diuel himselfe doth really and wholy take vp the said bodie with her seuerall partes to become the vnhappie instruments of his Diuellish attempts Lycanthropus I see no possible helpe but that the minde it selfe must giue place to the Diuel for a time Physiologus Giue place for a time for how long I beseech you Put case this man be really possest of the diuell for seuen yeeres togither or more and that in the meane time he should die before the diuell be dispossest of his bodie which for any thing knowne to the diuell he may very well do for his daies are determined which he cannot possiblie passe Now then the soule it selfe being surprized by death and so seperate from the bodie it selfe before she recouer her pristinate power concerning the saide bodie or any the organicall actions appertaining vnto it to whom must those the disordered actions wrought in the bodie all the whole time of the diuell his reall possession therein be imputed I pray you Whether to the possessed mans minde or to the diuell himselfe that possesseth his bodie And whether of both must yeeld an account vnto God for those seuerall actions of the sinfull bodie Lycanthropus The verie soule it selfe is answerable
be plainely discerned the chosen seruants of God from the confounded slaues of Satan Because now shall the prince of this world be actually cast out by the effectuall power of my death and resurrection Thus then we haue briefly heard those speciall scriptures which doe purposely point at the effectuall working power of Christ before his death Lycanthropus Let vs heare in like sort those other scriptures which doe purposely handle the said effectuall power of Christ now since his death Orthodoxus Content First therefore the holy Ghost saith thus to the Hebrewes For as much as the children are pertakers of flesh and bloud Christ also himselfe tooke part with them that he might destroy through death him that had power ouer death that is the diuell Wherein first you see he puts downe the incarnation of Christ and then next he sheweth the maine cause of his saide incarnation namely that he might destroy the diuell Now then this same destruction of the diuell it must in no wise be vnderstood of the essence but of the actions of Satan For the diuell as touching his essence or being still liueth and liue must for euer Howbeit concerning his actions I meane his tyrannicall dominion and actuall power he may verie fitly be said to be now destroied Because howsoeuer satan be accounted a prince of this world and therefore endeuoureth verie proudly to dominire ouer all yet when he came vnto Christ he found nothing at all in him that is no such matter of subiection as he happily imagined Neither could he possibly haue any power ouer him at all or no further power at the most then the brusing of Christ his heele I meane the crucifying of his flesh And this one worke of satan was that which accidentally procured his proper destruction For therefore did Christ take flesh vpon him that euen in the flesh he might conquere him who had conquered flesh and through death might destroy him that had power ouer death namely the diuell as was shewed before And this as it hath reference to the actions and not the essence of satan so shall it giue much light to the matter in hand if we precisely examine the verie word it selfe which the holy Ghost here obserueth For he saith not that Christ hath abated infringed or weakened but that he hath destroied the diuell that is that he hath vtterly cut off exiled and banished his tyrannicall dominion For so much the word tsamath importeth which signifieth to chaine vp to exterminate to driue out and in such sort to consume a thing as there remaineth no hope at all of anie possible recouerie Yea and the Greeke word catargeo portendeth fully as much Now then howsoeuer Christ may truely be said to haue destroied the diuell yet this word destruction hath not properly any reference to the essence of satan for therein he liueth and liue must for euer as hath beene declared Neither may it be fitly applied to Satan his power of obssession which is not yet vtterly destroied for thereby he assaulteth circumuenteth and tempteth men still to the end of the world And therefore it must necessarily and more especially be appropriated to his power of possession which was not onely much maimed but vtterly destroied by the death of our Sauiour although yet we denie not but that this vtter destruction both may be and is also in some sort vnderstood of the whole dominion and power of the diuell whatsoeuer All which his said powers were so mightily weakened by the sufferings and resurrection of Christ as thereby he shall neuer be able any more now to hurt the elect Because Christ taking part with them in the flesh hath destroied through death him that had power ouer death namely the diuell And hereunto accordeth that which the holy Ghost elsewhere auoucheth saying that Christ hath appeared to loosen dissolue or destroy the workes of the diuell Exorcistes That destruction is to be vnderstood of annihilating the venim and sting of sinne and death and not of a finall determining of satan his power of actuall possession Orthodoxus Herein your speech is derogatorious to the efficacie and dignitie of Christs death in that by restrayning the same as you doe to the onely annihilating of the venemous sting of sinne and of death you vtterly exclude the effectual working power thereof from the actuall determination of satan his actuall possession For consider you not what peculiar action therein the Scriptures impose vpon Christ First he hath been from the worlds foundation peculiarly appointed of God to be that promised seede which should bruse the serpents head Then next he is vndoubtedly that stronger man who was to binde the strong armed man and to deuide his spoiles Both which places as they plainly import some peculiar action to be performed by Christ so doe they vndoubtedly binde the actuall accomplishment thereof vpon his owne person alone and that also euen in the future time Then after the fulnes of time our Sauiour Christ being come in the flesh he flatly affirmeth that euen now shall the prince of this world be cast out Limitting you see the actuall effecting of that selfesame peculiar action so foretold as before vnto the present time of his sufferings Moreouer after the actuall accomplishment thereof by his death the holy Ghost else where affirmeth accordingly that he hath by death destroied him who had power ouer death and againe that Christ hath appeared to destroy the works of the diuel Both which last places of scripture as they plainely import some speciall action effected by Christ in the preter time as did those other before in the future time so surely Christ after he was come in the flesh did likewise alotte the actuall performance thereof vnto that present time of his death wherein he was actually to finish his predetermined conquest ouer satan himselfe Now then this said actuall accomplishment of some special action thus actually effected by Christ must necessarily haue a speciall reference to the finall determination either of Satan his power of possession or of his power of obsession But not of his power of obsession for therin he still assaulteth and tempteth mens minds and therefore of his power of possession as was shewed before Lycanthropus Let this suffice for the sence of those seueral scriptures which both before and since the comming of Christ do point foorth vnto vs his effectuall working power vpon satan and now I pray you analyse that selfesame scripture you propounded of late to prooue the finall determination of satan his actuall possession Orthodoxus Content Wherein you haue to consider first that our sauiour Christ in saying Now is the iudgement of this world now shall the prince of this world be cast out had an especiall regard to that earnest petition which certeine greekes a little before did personally put vp vnto Andrew saying Good
Surely if thou beleeuest aright if thou louest Christ in such sort as he is to be loued thou shalt stand in no need of miracles for miracles are giuen to them that beleeue not 4 In another place thus The working of miracles is now ceased with christians and found especially among such as are counterfeite christians for vnto Antichrist is giuen power to work lying signes and woonders with men 5 Againe he saith thus The working of miracles in times past was vndoubtedly necessary but now it is not so 6 The ordinary glosse saith thus If we work not miracles now is it because we want faith not so The working of miracles in the very first spring of the church was woonderfull necessary to confirme the true faith but that faith once confirmed they are now no more necessary 7 Lyra saith thus In the primitiue church the true sauing faith it was to be nourished and confirmed by miracles and therefore the gratious gift of miracles not onely was very freely bestowed vpon the apostles themselues but eftsoones also vpon many simple beleeuers 8 Hugo saith thus Miracles in the first sprout of the church were woonderfull necessary for the nourishment of faith howbeit not now necessary at all because the true faith is already very fully confirmed And therefore now in stead of signes and woonders the good works of professours must freely breake foorth to make their holy profession more resplendent and shining 9 Isidore he saith thus The working of miracles must vtterly cease before the manifestation of antichrist to the end that by such the churches supposed basenesse in comparison of those former miraculous seasons antichrist him selfe might the more boldly presume to persecute some vnto death For euen therefore there must necessarily appeare in the christian churches such an externall basenesse by the ceasing of miracles that the patience of persecuted saints might more cleerely shine foorth the inconstancy of scandalized reprobates more euidently appeare and the cruelty of bloudy persecutours become more outragious 10 Maister Beza saith thus That oyle wherewith the sicke persons were specially annointed it was an vndoubted true signe of the admirable power of God and no ordinarie medicine for the curing of mens maladies Seeing therefore the speciall gift of such a miraculous curing is ceased long since to what ende should the ceremonie thereof bee yet still so fondly retayned 11 Maister Caluin saith thus Seeing the true miracles effected by Christ and written downe authentically by the blessed Euangelists are fully sufficient to confirme the true sauing faith those men whatsoeuer who for any other respect would foist in new miracles they shew themselues wicked and such curious braines as not contenting themselues with eternall saluation doe desire to leape beyond the limits and bounds of the kingdome of heauen 12 In the Bee-hyue it is thus written The Prophets and Apostles they had a speciall gift for the working of miracles and driuing out of diuels to confirme their preaching thereby and therefore they ioyned to that selfesame gift some apparant ceremonie or signe as may plainely appeare Howbeit that power being ceased long since the signe also it must cease with the power 13 D. Cooper saith thus The working of miracles now it would shake very shreudly the certeinty of that truth which we preach because being confirmed afresh by miracles it should now be confirmed by that selfesame deceiueable meanes which is wholy reserued to Antichrist Yea and it woulde mightily strengthen the Papists giue them an aduantage against vs by making them in this sort to obiect and say If the Gospel you teach be the vndoubted truth why do you confirme so sacred a truth by that selfesame meanes which you so sharpely condemne in vs But if the Gospell you preach be an inueterate falshood why then do you shewe your selues to be Antichrists in thus laboring as you doe to confirme your inueterate falshood by such deceaueable signes and woonders 14 Doctor Fulke saith thus There is nowe no such ordinarie function in the Church of God that men shoulde haue power to cast out diuels more then to heale al manner of diseases speake with newe toongs which they neuer learned or to worke other miracles Which spirituall gifts God gaue in the beginning of the preaching of the Gospell to confirme the credit thereof among the Iewes and Gentiles but of long time haue ceased among Christians who are nowe to be directed by Gods worde whereunto also their profession doth binde them to giue credit without any further confirmation by miracles then that which is testified vnto them in the holie Scriptures 15 Againe he saith thus We know the gift of miracles is ceased long since in the Church and we meane not to counterfeit that gift as you doe and haue done Our faith being approoued by the Scriptures is confirmed by al the miracles of Christ and his Apostles exprest in the Scriptures 16 Briefly Master Dearing saith thus We know very wel that all the miracles of God were giuen to confirme his worde other signes or woonders then those neither we nor our fathers haue knowne And now that the vse of miracles is fully performed vnto vs and we doe beleeue the Gospell in token that our faith is freely accepted with God he hath taken awaie signes and woonders from vs which serued vs fitly before when we were vnbeleeuers And surely our faith is neuer so honorable nor we so highly in the fauour of God as when we haue saide both to heauen and earth we seeke no signes from you Or when the worde of God hath such a perswasion in our harts that we haue now taken fast hold of all the good promises of the Gospell and saide vnto miracles get you hence The Iewes seeke a signe saith Paul surely we that be Christians seeke for none When they were offred of God he shewed his compassion vpon our infirmities but now that he hath taken them away he bestoweth a greater mercie in accepting our faith Let vs hearken therefore to the worde of Christ for by it we shall liue If we beleeue not his worde neither would we beleeue all the miracles in the worlde though dead men doe arise and preach them vnto vs. Behold now Exorcistes you haue heer● a graund-iurie impannelled concerning this point what saie you vnto them Exorcistes I know not well what to thinke of them Orthodoxus If you either doubt of their credits or suspect their consciences you may haue a tales among these that follow Namely Peter Martyr Iohn Caluin Musculus Bullenger Gualter Erasmus Sarcerius with sundrie other besides who all do iointly and confidently auouch the ceasing of miracles in these daies of the Gospell Exorcistes I challenge no one of your former Iurours but doe iointly hold them for good men and true Orthodoxus Are you then content to submit to