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A13812 An ansvvere to certein assertions of M. Fecknam, sometime abbot of Westminster which he made of late against a godly sermon of M. Iohn Goughes, preached in the Tower the xv. of Ianuarie. 1570. Seen and allowed. Tomson, Laurence, 1539-1608.; Feckenham, John de, 1518?-1585, attributed name.; Gough, John, fl. 1561-1570, attributed name. 1570 (1570) STC 24113; ESTC S113017 63,134 174

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and Iohn ageyn he is I say notwithstanding al these falles the felow of Angelles the child of God inheritour of the kingdome of heauen Why Bycause he hath spoken by the mouth of hys Prophete Ippol lo iutall He shall fall but he shal not be cast away and as the wise mā sayth Scheba ippol tzaddik vakam ▪ septies cadet iustus sed surget the iust man shal fall .vij. times but he shall rise As for this word Naphal to fall it caryeth with it a more weightier signification than you alledge All these things being considered it is no euill way to preach repentance and yet say that all sinne of it selfe is damnable to exhort to good woorkes and yet to teach a man not to presume of his owne works as to giue part of his saluation seing that the whole is wrought by Chryst his death and applied to vs by only faith to exhort all men to pray for eche other yet not to spoyle Christ of the office of his mediatorship which is taken away by the prayer to Sainctes to exhort men to kéepe Gods commaundements and yet to teach that they be impossible that séeing our owne weaknesse through our owne sinne we may flie to his mercy and say Da quod iubes iube quod vis giue what thou cōmaundest and commaūd what thou wilt So sound Doctrine as this is God giue grace to all his ministers to preach you to embrace that they with their preching and you I with our folowing may glorifie our father which is in heauen Thus haue I in few wordes answered your cauilling arguments and counterfet stuffe as time did serue me if not so amply as I might yet sufficient for those you brought framing my answere shortly to your argumēt And as you vniustly lay to M. Goughs charge contradiction to the holy scriptures to the fathers and to haue nothing to stād vpon but old heresies reuiued as of the Maniches Eunonius Vigilantius Iouinian I haue and do lay to your charge iustly contradiction to the scriptures false alleaging of doctors to no purpose such slēder such childishe so against all arte reason in forming of your talke as any Boy might haue bin ashamed to haue vsed the like I haue and do I say lay iustly to your charge your false burdning him with those foresaid heresies as vnfit as vnaptly layd against him as any thing could be I can not see why in these cases you myght not as well haue blamed him to be an Arrian a Sabellian and what you will as a Mani●hean an Eunonian a Vigilantian a Iouinian Now when you haue done all this as though you had atchieued a notable feate you require of their worships a thing reasonable as you wold make it that you might not be enforced to come to sermōs a thing as you say against all former example a thing as true as the residue Did you neuer read Augustine to Vincentius against the Donatists concerning this matter If you did not I pardon your ignorance If you did I wil not spare but tel you of your vntruth Do you not read in his Epistles cum haereticis esse v● agēdum that heretikes must be dealt with by force Do you not remember that he sayth it did good to the Churches in his time That the Donatists were constrained by authoritie to the embrasing of christian religion and there reheasreth diuers of their gratulations Do you not remember that he sayth not to do it is malum pro malo reddere to requite euil for euill Do you not remember that he sayeth A●elius est cum seueritate diligere quam cum lenitate decipere Better it is to loue with seueritie than to deceiue with lenitie And that it pertaineth to princes Do you not remēber how he answereth that obiection bicause there was none in the Apostles time Do you not remember the example of Nebuchadnezer which he sayeth signified the state of the Church in the Apostles tyme this now When he constrained to Idolatrie howe the Apostles were persecuted When being turned to God decreed in his kingdom that whosoeuer blasphemed the God of Sydrach Misach and Abednego shuld be worthely punished what prynces ought nowe to do For then saith he that scripture was verified Quare fremuerunt gentes c ▪ why did the Gentyles tumultuously rage c. But now is fulfilled that principes erūt nutrices tuae and Princes shall be thy nurses Do you not remember how he sayeth capitale ●u●icium punishmēt of death was appoynted by the law of the Emperors against the sacrifices of the Paganes Do you not remember when he sayth of that quis nostrum quis vestrum non laudat Which of vs which of you doth not praise it Do not you remēber how he sayeth that Constantine did decrée vt conuictorum res fis●o vendicarentur that the goods of the conuicted should be chalenged to the common treasure Do yée not remember that he was once in that errour that they should not bée constrayned vntill he was conuicted by examples of the profite it did Do you not read in the same that in matters of religion Mansuetudo quae perdit hominem crudelitas est seueritas quae castigat improbum charitas est gentlenesse which destroyeth a mā is crueltie seueritie which chastiseth a wicked mā is charitie do you not remember the similitudes he vseth Do you not remember that he sayth the Church of Christ doth persecute shewing it in the example of Sara doo you not remember poenam decem librarum auri ab Imperatoribus consti●u●am that by Emperours was appointed or decréed a punishment or penaltie of ten pounds in golde agaynst the Donatistes But yf it bée a thing so straunge agaynst all exāple why did you so then vse it in Quéenes Maries time and so farre that you contented not your selues to cast them in pryson to hale them to Masses but to burne them also yf it had bin no more but your owne example you might haue bin ashamed to giue forth this reason You in your doings coulde bée called defensores pacis prouisores Ecclesiae defenders of peace and gardians of the Churche The Quéenes grace that now is and her Lieuetenaunts are cruell vexers and oppressours But you shewe your selfe as you are a righte Donatist both in profession nowe and in dooyngs then As they when they accused Caecilian the Bishop of Carthage to Constantine and required to haue him punished then were they defensores pacis prouisores Ecclesiae ▪ defenders of peace and gardianes of the Churche but when they were serued with theyr owne sause then they coulde cry out and saye Non esse vt agendum that there oughte too bée no dealing by constrainte Suche were your doynges in Queene Maries time this is your demaund and talke nowe ▪ What is this other than as Tychonius one of theyrs and your Master sayde of you bothe Quod volumus
is righteous be righteous stil. For the doers of the law are iust And therefore it is as much as yf it should bée sayd The doers of the law shall be created not because they were but that they may bée You go foreward against M. Gough An other place he brought to expresse by scripture this worde Onely that fayth onely doth iustifie alleaging the saying of Christe vnto Iairus Prince of the Synagogue Crede tantùm Beleeue onely A place verie fitly applied as yf Christe there had spoken of the Iustification of Iairus and not rather of the corporall reuiuing of his daughter As for M. Goughes alleaging of the place I do not thinke but he sawe what was principally done in that place and that Christ was reuiuing of his daughter yet not withstanding he might note vnto you in what sorte wée ought to béehaue our selues towardes the receyuing of Christes benefites and graces that although things séeme vnto vs desperate voyde of all hope and comforte yet wée should not cease but to beléeue in Christe that he is able to doo whatsoeuer wée demaunde in feare and truth And this hope and fayth is sufficient and he requireth nothing els at our handes This I say why might he not note vnto you touching onely fayth hauing twoo suche notable examples before his face as the woman with the flux Iairus with his dead daughter And so might he make his argument As fayth onely is sufficient to the curing of an vncurable sore and the raising of the dead so is it sufficient to the remission of sinnes Neyther is he voyde of authoritie for his interpretation Theophilacte sayth thus Ne timeas tantùm crede respice ad mulierem hanc quae sanguinis profluuio laborauit illam si imitatus fueris non aberrabis Feare not onely beléeue Behold this Woman whiche was sicke of the fluxe yf thou followe her thou shalt not doo amisse Neyther is Iames cleane contradictorie as you say to Master Gough in this sense where he sayeth Videtis quoniam ex operibus iustificatur homo non ex fide tantùm You sée that of workes man is iustified and not of fayth onely There is you knowe Oppositio in terminis opposition in woordes and oppositio realis opposition in matter As for the first ye knowe also it is nothing and so may these two be fides tantum iustificat fides tātum non iustificat fayth only dothe iustifie ●ayth only doth not iustifie As for the other there must be vniuocatio in terminis the Subiectum and the Praedicatum must be taken in one sense in both Otherwise there is no opposition For both may be true As in this fayth only iustifieth the woord Iustifieth is taken in this sence Iustifieth before God. In the other Fayth only doth not iustifie the woord Iustifieth is taken hauing respect to men And so they be not opposite Of the sense of the place I spake before Likewise of the place of Luke viij I haue sayd my mind what M. Gough his meaning was I was not at his Sermon I promisse you I haue not talked with him therin I skant know the person S. Augustine in his booke de fide operibus sheweth the beginning and foundation of this muche like heresie to haue bin in the Apostles time vpon the misconstruing of Paules Epistles saying Quoniam haec opinio tunc fuerat exorta aliae Apostolicae epistolae Petri Iohannis Iacobi Iudae cōtra eàm maximè dirigunt intentionem vt vehementer astruant fidem sine operibus nihil prodesse That is bicause this opinion was then sprōg vp other Apostolicall epistles of Peter Iohn Iames Iude do bend their drift and purpose most of all against that opinion that they may boldely and vehemently affyrme faith without workes to auaile nothing If it be fayth only it is fayth without works If faith only auaileth nothing faith only can not iustifie What opinion that was M. Fecknam how vnlike vnto our assertion I shewed you before out of the same place and it was this as you haue it in the beginning of the chapter Bene autem viuere bonis operibus viam dei tenere neglexerint and they contemne to liue well and to kéepe the way of God in good works He sayth not bonis operibus incrementum iustitiae addere and with good woorkes to giue encrease of iustice ▪ Which péece you stand for which you shal neuer be able to shew out of Augustine and so we deny it As for your collection if faith only auaileth nothing faith only can not iustifie we deny the consequēt For as I said before ther is not vniuocatio in terminis We say true that nothing else but faith doth iustifie and yet say the faith which is dead sole is nothing worthe for it is not that which we say doth iustifie Likewise he saith in his boke de trinitate very briefly and pithily sine charitate fides quidem potest esse sed non prodesse Without charitie faith may be but without charitie it can nothing auaile This is very wel said we graūt al this he speaketh according to the scriptures you néed not haue gon so far S. Iames s. Paul could haue taught you the same But to your purpose it serueth very little yea nothing at al. Now touching your tretise of works done in faith wheras you are misgréeued with M. Gough so far that you cal it a preposterous way and a blasphemous doctrin to say that our workes are as filthie cloutes vnto which Christ promiseth a rewarde so great as euerlasting life if you would iustly consider with your self the duetie that god requireth of vs the default that is in vs the integritie the puritie that we are bound to by his commandement the imperfection the impuritie that is in vs you coulde not iustly cōdemne him god cōmaundeth vs to serue him with all our harts with all our soule with al our strēgth what is he vpon the earth that doth employ these wholy that hath not alwayes the flesh pricking against the spirit then the work that is done of such is it not as a menstruous cloth could it be acceptable before God were it not for his mercy If it please him of the same mercy to giue me lyfe euerlasting for my halfe dayes nay for my one houres worke doth it folow that my worke is worthy of it when all the workes of the world be not worth lyfe euerlasting Chrystes death excepted Then touching your other cauil of faith only How only without baptisme without repentance without feare without hope without charitie You may vnderstand of that I haue sayd before howe all these must folow and an hundreth more and yet fayth only must iustifie what so euer he be that casteth these away in that respect that he is iustified by faith he deceiueth him selfe and he is not iustified He is a dead trée he is a thorne