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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A05036	A collection of certain letters and conferences lately passed betvvixt certaine preachers & tvvo prisoners in the Fleet	Barrow, Henry, 1550?-1593.; Greenwood, John, d. 1593.	1590 (1590)	STC 1518.5; ESTC S121987	59,993	78

cōtend for the maintenance of the faith that was once giuē vnto the Saints Re●… 14. 9. c. Iude. ●… M r. COOPER to shift off the answeare of our Arguments wherwith he was pressed whē he perceiued the issue of them he rose from the table brake off Conference with vs pretending hast to be gonne but the dore being lockt he turned him to two g●…lemen which sate behind as hear●…rs of our conference and fell ●… perswading of them whervpon I IOHN GREN left M r. BAR●…OVV Mr. SPERIN in conference still went to giue eare to Mr. COOPER whose deceipt●… I fownde so pernitions D●…ctrines so fowle that I againe replied vpon him and receiued certaine errors from his mouth some wherof I shall heare insert with mine answere in breife not following our vvhole discourse COOP. A priuate man ought not to make question our doubt of the Ministers ou●…ward calling but if he find comfort in heart by his Doctrine he ought to approue of his ministrie what calling soeuer he haue GREN. This is sweete Doctrine that you sowe here hath not the ●…orde giuen as great Commandement to auoide false Prophetts as to heare obey the true messengers and all true messengers thervpon approuing their sending to all mens consciens by the euide●…t testimonie of Gods reueyled will shall not the flocke know their Pastor yea chuse call their Pastor COOP. If one come into a Congregacōn heare one preach he ought not to make question of the Ministers calling or refuse his Doctrine GREN. If one come so before know that that preacher hath a false outward calling yea that he hath no office in a true Church but is a false Prophet he offendeth in hearing of him especially in a false Church for ther is no false teacher but teach●…th some truth c. COOP. A man may be a true Minister to a people vncalled they are a true Church or faithfull Congregation potentia though not actu and he may be an officer or minister vnto them they b●…ing a true Church Potentia GREN. This is such Doctrine as I neuer heard that a Pastor can be ordeyned exercise the duties of a Pastor to a Church that as yet is not But your Ministers most sacrilegiouslie giue them the Sac●…aments also in this estate COOP. Though the Minister do deliuer the Sacraments to the open knowne vnworthie and so commit sacriledge yet maie a priuate man communicate with the Minister that partie not be partaker of their sinne GREN. If I associat a theife Communicate in his ●…uill shall I not be guiltie how mich more if I reproue not this transgressiō against God absteine from their fellowship till they repent or by due ●…rder be censured BARTLET Here M r. BARTLET a gentleman said yt was not well we had not some more orderlie Conference about theis weightie causes that the truth might appea●…e GREN. You see they will not come to ani●… pointe of Doctrine to conclude anie thing we haue long made sute to ha●…e some free Conference neuer could obteine anie but are lockt vp close prisoners COOP. They denie our Church ministrie therfor are not to be disputed with BARTL Yet their reasons would be seene cōuinced orderly if they deserue yt then to suffer punishment GREN. We haue often shewed causes whie we hold your Church ministerie to be false and not to be ioyned with of anie that wilbe saued as for example you haue not a people rightlie gathered vnto CHRIST but stand one with the world so that your parishes cannot be called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a people called fourth 2. you haue set a popish ministerie ouer this whole ●…ande 3. you most sacrilegiously giue the Sacraments in this order to all commers 4. you wor●…hipp God after mens deuises and not according to CHRISTS Testament 5. you haue not the power or freedome to redresse sinne by due censure being all Subiect to theis wicked Courts c. BARTL Theis thinges would be answeared conuinced COOP. We graunt the things they seeke are good and manie of vs haue written and taught fullie the same but they seeke them not by due order GREN. This is not true you are limited what to preach to conforme your Doctrines to theis Antichristiā Orders still practize cōtrarie i●… you write or teach anie truth And as for vs we seeke to do the will of God after the same order that all true Prophets CHRIST his Apostles haue taught practised for Conscience towards God to haue no fellowship with that ministerie Church which reiecteth CHRISTES Testament and will not be guided by him his Ordinances COOP. We professe teach trulie all the Articles of faith GREN. The Papists teach the same Articles in generall wordes but nether you nor they ether teach the particular Doctrines our practise the same truly But both you and they denie speaciall Doctrines of our Iustification COOP. What Article of faith do we not truli●… teach GREN. You teach that CHRIST descended into hell after his death and buriall COOP. We hold it not neither teach yt manie of vs haue taught written against yt you therfore do vs wrong to chardge vs with vt GREN. It is set out with priuiledge as an Article of your faith receiued and redd in all your Parishes COOP. Though the gouernours of our Church sett yt out and we ca●… not help yt yet we are not to be chardged with yt GREN. Besids that you daylie communicate with them that do hold yt if not reade yt to the people you haue subscribed to this all other such errors in your Church of late as I heare Here Mr. COOPER was smitten with mutenes and the gentleman said haue you donne so COOP. He careth not wh●…t he saith of vs. GREN. Will you denie yt I will bring witnes to proue yt vnto you before to morrow at 8 of the clocke if you denie yt COOP. I will not make you acquainted with my priuate actions GREN. I desire not to knowe your priuate actiōs but this is a publique matter of your subiection to Antichrist in your whole ministerie against your conscience but yt seemes your deeds ar euill and therfore you would hide them least they should be reproued of the light The gentleman said yt was thought we held some error about the lords prayer as they call yt whervppon I shewed him ou●… iudgment in writing said that we vvould not continue in anie error to our knowledg and when he read thatwe said yt could not be called the Lords prayer because he neuer prayed yt M r. COOPER tooke exception thus COOP. It may be called the Lords prayer in respect he taught yt his Disciples GREN. This proueth it cannot be called the lords prayer for Doctrine is one thing and prayer is an other Prayer is a powring fourth of our hearts vnto the Lord according to our present wāts Doctrine

A COLLECTION OF CERTAIN LETTERS AND CONFERENCES LATELY PASSED BETVVIXT CERTAINE PREACHERS TVVO PRISONERS IN THE FLEET 1590. To the Reader COnsidering the reformist Preachers are now become the BB ● trustie actors in their most conning cruell enterprises who erewhile would make the world belieue that they neither pleaded for the BB s. tooke their ministrie from them submitted it vnto them or subscribed vnto their proceedings no●… would euer oppose against the truth or anie part therof muchlesse be at the commaundment of their LL s. the BBs to persequute Christs afflicted or be partakers in their innocent bloudshedding againe that they pitied the ignorance of those that went to far charitablie sought to reduce them I thought it therfore my duetie that the truth of these things might appeare to giue thee to vnderstand how they haue behaued themselues in this busines what was the power of their weapens in conference against those men whom they haue so r●…prochfully published in their Pulpits wrytings to be silye men whot spirited ignorant Brownists Schismaticks c. to the intent thou mightest equallie consider of both sides by these few things discussed betweene them the estate of their controuersies as also how manie of these Prisoners Arguments against thir Church ministrie administation lye vppon them vnans●…red For the Conferences the truth of them thou maist perceiue in certaine Letters which passed betwixt them how carefullie vppon what sure ground the Prisoners related them And if tho●… finde not such pith or substance in the matters discussed betwixt them of weightie doctrines as might be expected of such men thou must cōsider maiest perceiue that these Preachers were loth to haue the sore touched but by euasions sought alwaies to darkē torne away the truth with indirect answeres cōning distinctions And to make the matter more euident I haue at the latter end anexed certeine Arguments giuen their cheif Teachers lōg agoe to haue answered by writing the which they haue as these Prisoners report closely put vp and with an euill conscience spoken euill in their Pulpits in stead of consent repentance Which course of rayling denying of free conference thou see●…t they still are wholy bent to proceed in how vnchristian soeuer it be thinking therby their auditorie ●…hall still be held in false reportes blindnes sufficiently satisfied vppon these mens wordes to persequute these poore afflicted Prisoners who loue not their lyues vnto death that the truth might come to light to thy saluation And to my grief I must desire thee to remember that the Preachers are to nothing more vnwilling then to grant these sillye men a free conference making no scruple in the meane time to speak all maner euill sayings of them vnconuicted by them of anie error or crime which bewrayeth both their corrupt wayes wherin they walke that may not be brought to triall and also their spirit to be voide of true Christian loue howsoeuer they pretend outward holines As ●…hou findest God giue thee grace without pa●…tialitie to valewe esteeme the truth of God not after m●…ns persons but as the cause it self requireth and the peace of God shall rest vppon thee for euer The summe of the Conference betwixt M r. THOMAS SPERIN me HENRY BARROVV vppon the 14 of the third Moneth in the Fleet as nere as my ill memorie could carie away SPER. FIrst M r. Sperin signified vnto me that he was sent by the Bishop of London to confer with me concerning certeine things that I was said to hold Namely that there was no Church in England BAR. I answered that for the Bishop of London I had nothing to do with him neither he with me what I hold concerning their Church of England the Bishhopps knew long agoe neuer as yet would grant either publicke or priuate conference where the Booke of GOD might quietly decide the cōtrouersies betwixt vs but they had ymprisoned me in close most streight ymprisonment now two yeares well nigh an half besides manie more greeuous iniuries offred vnto vs as publishing vs Heretikes Schismatiks Anabaptists Recusants turbulent sedicious what not in their Pulpits priuileged bookes sparsed libells accused vs for such vnto ou●… most honorable magistrates at publ●…cke Sessiōs c. Therfore I had iust cause to suspect anie conferencc that he could send vnto me considering his manifold mischeivous practises against the Gospell true seruants of CHRIST continually SPER. Herevppon M r. Sperin protested his comming to be in loue to conser brotherly christianly with me not vnto my harme or preiudice anie kinde of way and began in some faint ●…ermes to def●…nd the B. of London to be learned graue wise c. BAR. I said that could not be he was a grievous enemy vnto the trueth to CHRIST and his Saintes now holding aboue 60. of them in sondry Prisons without cause lawe or conscience Y●…a I affirmed him to be an APOSTATA a persecuter of that trueth he sometime gladly 〈◊〉 defended therfore his name was grievous hatefull vnto me and furder I demanded of M r. Sperin his name which being vnderstood I willed him from henceforth to vse his owne n●…me vnto me for so I would not denie anie kinde of conference at anie time which was in my power to grant but I said that I merueled to see him come now in the BB s. name because I had heard he had sometymes bene otherwise minded SPER. To this he answered that he euer thought reuerently of the Bishopps both for their learning as also because her Maiestie hath authorised them BAR. I shewed their vnlawfull ANTICHRISTIAN Beastlike power authoritie as also their barbarous hauock they exercised in the Church confounding subuerting all Gods ordinances setting vp their owne deuises in stead therof And therfore they that reuerence theis men call CHRIST execrable worship the beast SPER. Here M r. Sperin obiected against me the place of IVDE that I despised gouernment spake euill of them in authoritie BAR. If the things I haue spoken be true or that their authoritie be not of God both which I affirme will approue by the word of God then you greatly iniure both this Scripture me SPER. Their authoritie is of God in as much as it is of the Prince BAR. The Prince cannot make lawfull that which God forbiddeth namely to haue exercise both ecclesiasticall ciuile authoritie as this man doth from whom you come SPER. I iustifie not his ecclesiasticall authoritie but that authoritie he hath from the Prince BAR. If he be a ciuile magistrate whie is he called a Bishop vsurpeth an ecclesiasticall function SPER. May not ciuile magistrates be called Bishops BAR. I neuer read that they were so in the new Testament yet I acknowledg they are called Shepheards in EZEKIEL MICAH but this man we speake of was fometimes a Parson of a Towne if not of more then one then an