other fancyes fictions of the Heathen As for example Zeus Iupiter was among the Heathens their great God he only was their highest of whom besides they held a 1000. fables and indeed he was none other but a Divell as is before noted Nevertheles the Apostle vseth the same for the only true God the author and governour of Heaven and Earth passing by all their Fables when he applyeth the Poets verse a Act. 2â— His generation also we are Tartarus which b Pag. 3â— you obiect though rarely sometime perhaps a Philosopher will note thereby the Ayer yet indeed vsually and in a maner alwayes they meant Hell by it with a thousand of dreames thereto belonging Yet Peter not canonizing nor commending their dreames and fictions of Hell notwithstanding signifyeth Hell indeed by that worde of theirs according to their common vse thereof and according to the proportion of truth which therein they held So Daimonion which also c Pag. ibâ—â— you obiect they vsed to signifie by it both good and bad Spirits following and conversing with them and the good they honoured as Gods But indeede and in truth seeing these same were all Divels therefore the Scripture holdeth not the Heathens erroneous meaning in this word yet it doth retayne that which they vnderstood by it truly that is to signifie Divells and bad spirits Againe Theos the Heathen vsed for to expresse the Nature of God but so as that they thought it coÌ„mon to many severall Gods The Apostles vse the word also for the true God yet not vnderstanding therein a nature common to many which error they otherwise cleerely and often refute And thus we might speake of infinit mo the like wordes as Feare the power and strength whereof they also fained to be a God and of Hope and of Revenge Goddesses c. Like wherevnto is Hades even that which presently we have in hande The diveâ—â— applicatâ—â— of Hadeâ— With the HeatheÌ„ it commonly and most vsually signified the state of Dead men somtime rarely the Destruction of other things which perish out of this visible world haue no more being heere Whereof anon we shall see further Howbeit now to consider it as it respecteth men only thus the Heathens chiefly and commonly by Hades vnderstoode the state I say and Condition of men both good and bad deceased and gone out of this world And they meant it commonly for the Destruction of their persons from out of this world generally and indifferently Againe oftentimes particularly touching their Bodyes buriall also particularly many things touching their Soules state being parted from the Body Some of which they believed were in Blessednes some in Tormentes although they signified neither of these in the word Hades but onely as I said their state after their departure hence Also they thought some of the Blessed Soules to be in the a chiefest Blessednes â—Vhich you â—â—iect pag. â—â—4 376. that was in presense with the Gods Yet they were in Hades also that is in an other world after they were wiped out from hence Hither they admitted onlie Philosophers Treat 1 pa. â— Heroês such like Thus hither it is that b Plato assigneth Socrates and thus Socrates him selfe hopeth to goe to Hades to the wise and good God Other Soules of good men they gave Blessednes vnto in the Elysian fieldes vnder the earth as they fancied or where els I know not And these were also in Hades So that both these estates and condicions of blessed Soules deceased which was their Heaven though differing very much in places they yeeldâ—d to be in Hades Whence I thinke some of the Fathers and after them some Papistes haue fayned divers places of rest and ioy to the Dead Heaven presently to the Martyrs but to other good Christians an other place of rest ioy which they called Abrahams bosome either in the earth or where they also knew not Howbeit into the glory of Heauen and the presence of God and of Christ they admit none save only the Martyrs before the last day But this errour and all other errors about Hades the Apostles sufficiently confute in their writings so that we are not now to respect the same in the vse of Hades Onely we are therefore to note how much and what besides all errours may bee truly retayned and meant by the Apostles in applying this worde Hades as the Heathen did to both sortes of Soules of Dead men They might truely vnderstand that both have one common condicion and state as touching their being in another world as they were dissolved departed from and wiped out of this visible world aâ— they were now in the world of the Dead an opposite estate condicion to the living This also the very Natural Etymologie of the word according to Grammar doeth properly yeeld in that it signifieth c Vnseene Hades The â—â—ke may be â—â—â—id of Sheol or Not seene any more in this world or an estate not seene heere with vs topos aîdes an Vnseene place as Plato calleth it Where note it cannot be referred to the estate of Angels because Hades is the vnseene state of them that once had a visible and ordinary being and conversation heere in this world So that in very deed it hath properly but a Privative sense not any thing positive in it though this d you can not brooke All this then the Apostles might well vnderstand allow in the word Hades Pag. 396. without any taint of Heathenisme And therfore also doubtles so they did But the heathens further made Hades a Divine power whom also they called Pluto as it were the God of Death or of the Dead because as before is shewed they dreamed that he held all that were Dead vnder his power both blessed damned soules And because no man that dyeth whether good or bad doeth ever live heere againe and because all whosoever without exception must dy therefore they call him Hades améilichos kai adámastos implaâ—able and vnmastered and Nélees êtor echôn having a mercilesso bea rt In which sense in Latin also they vsed Parca Destiny the ende of all because it spareth none Certainly this Deifying of such a Power or to make a God of it the Apostles abhorred and every where in their writinges they shew what Idolatry and extreame impiety it is But yet they may and do acknowledg such a power of Death which worketh this Destruction of all men froÌ„ the world detayneth them in Death afterward Wherefore they have in sundry places Prosopopoeas thereof as in the Revelation the Keyes of Death and Hades Death riding on a pale horse and Hades following after him Death and Hades yeelded vp their dead and both were cast into Hell Likewise that O Death where is thy sting O Power of death where is thy victory But of these more anon Hitherto the 1. observation is manefest that the Apostles vsing the Heathens words yet need not nor
that is the DominioÌ„ or power of Death were cast into Hell â—â—v 20.14 I said it was absurd to say Hell was cast into Hell You answer it is more absurd to say the world of Soules was cast into Hell Where you doe but dally and play with words â—t â— e woâ—â—â—e â—e Deaâ— Aâ—â—ally For I vse not that terme * the world of soules though it may be named sometime in a good sense Which you will by no meanes conceave only you delight much to sport your sâ—lfe with it Our answer theÌ„ is this There is no absurditie to say that at the last day when the * last enemy shal be destroyed then Death â—â—â—ore pag. 2. and the power of Death or the Kingdome and Dominion of Death shal be cast into Hel that is eternally dâ—stâ—oyâ—d abâ—â—ished shall râ—turn to the Divell whâ—â—â— they came To say many soâ—t that theÌ„ Hell phalbe cast into Hell souÌ„deth sensâ—les in my â—atâ—s Although you meane the Contayning to bâ— put for the Contayned Hâ—ll for the Divels of Hel and that the Divels shalbâ— theÌ„ cast into hâ—l fire Yea although one Andreas â—eda vnderstand it so likewise For neither you nor they it â—â—â—meth do cosidâ—r that this place assigneth them to Hell then at the last day who yet are not in Hell but shal be then cast into Hell â—nd destroyed But the Divels are a 2 Pet. 2. Iâ—d 6. in Hell already reserved in eâ—â—rlasting châ—mes of darknes Therefore the Divels cannot be vndâ—â—stood heere by Hadâ—s that they shal be then cast into Hel seeing â—hey are already cast in to Hell for ever Death and the Power thereof being the last enemie that shal be dâ—stroyed is not yet but shal be indeed at the last day aboliâ—hed swallowed vp of Hell Lastly â—eere is shewed the most general vniversall rendring vp of all the â—ead whatsoever to iudgment But Hel plainly hath not all the Dead Death the world of the Dead or thâ— Dominion of Death have all Therefore Dâ—ath Hades heere do not signifie properly the Divâ—ll Hell but this only that Death and the vniversall Dominion or power of Death yeelded vp to iudgment al the Dead both great smal both good and bad to be iudged according to their workes Thus it is evident and cleere that Hades no where in the â—ew Testament doth signifie properly Hel as you say it doth Thus also that is concluded fully and perfitly which my 2. Reason †Pag. 15 before affirmed that you have not one place at all in the Scripture to prove that Christs Soule was in Hell b Act. â— 2 One place only you have stood vpon that Christs Soule was in Hades but that helpeth you nothing at all as we have seene You must prove indeed that Chriâ—ts Soule was in Gehenna if you would perswade any man of knowledg which you shal never do Gehenna in the New Testament is properly Hell but Hades is never properly so taken as I hope it is sufficiently before proved Therefore the Concluâ—ion is good To thinke that Christes Soule was ever in Hell is a thing that ought to be vâ—terly denyed Yet heere we must consider a maine obiection of yours â—ven those words of our common Creed Touching Câ—â—â—◠〈◊〉 which vsually in English wâ— vtter thus He descended into Hell originally 〈◊〉 is He descended into Hades And in truth this is all that you have to allâ—age for your opinion â—swere But I answer 2. wayes First Admitting then Denying the authority of thâ—se words in our Comon Creâ—d 1. Admitting the authority of these words yet Not as sufficient not as Aposâ—â—hâ—all but such as may be fâ—oÌ„ godly and sound Christians wâ— affirme that we can well vnderstand them according to the Scriptures vse of Hades rightly viz that Christes whole humane Person came vnder the power and Dominion of Death or that he dâ—caying in this world * falling down from that state of life wherein a while he flourished went absolâ—tly from hence into the world of the Dead 〈◊〉 before 〈◊〉 153. according to the law of nature which all other men follow likewise when they dâ— How this sense doth fully agree also with the mindes of the ancient Fathers generally we have at large dâ—clared c before Pag. 166. Pag. 1â—4 But this serveth not your turne therefore you will needes inioyne vs d 3. Rules to be exactly and prâ—câ—sâ—ly kept in the expounding of these words namely 1. Distinction of matter 2. Consequence of order 3. Propriety of words You must know that we can be no more strict Note nor more religious in observing the Ciâ—cuÌ„stances of matter order even in the holy Scriptures themselves then you inioyne heere to be observed in these words of men Might not these godly men think you misse in som such Circumstance or light point although the Scripture can not Or if they might why impose you such strictnes on our consciences about mens words as if heere were no possibility of any the least missing or imperfection How beit we admit your 3. Rules also 3. Rules and will observe them sufficiently First these words He descended to Hades may very well expresse a Distinction of matter differing from all the words heere besides They naturally and properly signifie as before we shewed that Christ came to vtter decay in this world and being taken hence was gathered in both partes of his Manhood dissolved wholy intirely to those who were departed before him into another world Or ells thus that he came vnder the full power e before Pag. 192. Dominion of Death Now either of these differeth verily from meere and simple Death â—vian â—â—â—â—â—â—ce â—eaâ—h For to Dy propeâ—ly is nothing els but the going a sunder of the Soule from the Body That other is to be wholy razed out from the presence and sight of this world also a remayning vnder the possession and strength of Death and a going to the society of them in another world g. 192. These indeed are f differing points and degrees in Death albeit in effect generally they bee all one with Death that is they be necessaâ—ily consequent alwayes conioyned vnto Death Againe if those wordes in the Creed were only but a more emphaticall phrase of through and perfit Dying and Departing hence if there were in them no further DistinctioÌ„ of matter then so yet this were enough to distinguish them froÌ„ the other words Dead and Buryed This is cause enough especially in the Ancient times when men suppose this Creed was framed when Christs Humanity and naturall Death was by al meanes subtilly and violently oppugned after a short worde signifying his Death and Buriall yet for more emphasis sake and for further Viging the same to addâ— this other short familiar phrase importing no other maine matter then was before noted but only a more effectuall and more absolut signification
thereof Which in trueth these our wordes in question doe well performe He came vnder the Dominion of Death or Went to the societie of the Dead following presently after these wordes Dead Buried And thus your 2. Rule alse Consequence of order is rightly kept For euen in respect of time it is certaine that Christs whole person perishing froÌ„ hence was wholy ioyned to the Dead after the precise separation of his Soule and body which was his Death And his Buriall being the visible part thereof in good reason may be set before that which signifieth the whole contayning also his Soules invisible going vnto the Dead Lastly if there be no more in this but a stronger emphasis meerely a more full-signifying phrase it might well come after termes of lesse emphasis Your 3. and last Rule Proprietie of Wordes is plainly for vs and against your selfe For that which we strive for is the a Pa. 157 169 17â— native and proper sense of Hades even according to the etymologie of it and according to common vse You if you vrge it to signifie Hel do indeed make a †Pa. 171. Figure in it viz. Synecdoche a part for the whole as before we haue shewed As for the other word heere in the Creed katébe or katélthe Hee descended or came vnder it is not necessarie to take it alwayes to signifie a locall going downe specially thus ioyned with Hades For thus it may aptly lively shew the fall or whole casting down of a mans person from the state of life to death and vtter destruction out of this world as also men are said to stand vp and spring vp when they live Or it may serue to expresse the Force and Dominion of Death which Christ came vnder when he dyed Or the abasement and humiliation of Christ yeelding submitting him selfe so farre that is not onely to Dy but also to come vnder the strength and force of death by lying held subdued as it were for so long time in it All this the very property of the word katebe admitteth very easilie and Ruffinus liketh it where he interpreteth this phrase â—uffin in â—â—mb Descendit in mortem He descended vnto Death If any thinke this to be somewhat figurative yet it is verily so familiar and easie to all people as that other word in this Creed is He sitteth at the right hand of God yea it is farie easier indeed And heerein all the later famous learned and godly Restorers of Religion in a maner doe ioyne with vs as Mat. Bucer P. Martyr Bulinger â—â—slitut Olevia c. Yea M. Calvin liked this also wel enough though yet he seemeth to leane more to another sense viz. Christes Hellish sufferings which indeed is a true doctrine as before is declared though to this place of the Creed I thinke not so fit Now these men your L. ought not to skorne nor reproch though you have leave to deale so with me Their pietie learning and authoritie is such with all that love the Gospell as will overwaigh your big wordes and high lookes and whatsoever els you are lifted vp withal aboue our mediocritie Hitherto we haue answered admitting the authoritie of these wordes He descended to Hades But wee are in truth to know â—ere that as you cite them and vige them they have no such authoritie credit as hitherto we have yeelded vnto them And that for 3. causes First for that your TraÌ„slating and terming them He descended into Hel is corrupt partiall and vntrue Which I trust is manifest by that which I have shewed before touching the true property natural vse of Hades If you say among vs all men do so speak heere and translate hades Hel. I pray you coÌ„sider that this article as also I think this whole Creed was at first written in Greek and not in English Wherefore the English terme how comon so ever must not preiudice vs nor the truth in this matter as very vnreasonably a you indeavour to make it to do â—â—g 420. Convince vs evidently and soundly by Greek authoritie that Hades is alwayes Hell or that Hades is never applyed to the condicion and state of the godly deceased and then I will yeeld or els my sufficient proofes before to the contrary will convince the vntrue and partiall translation Another reason to deny vtterly the authority and credit of these wordes He descended to hades so to hold them vnable to make any argument as from our Creed is because this speciall clause of Christs descending to Hades or to Infernum is new and lately put into our vulgar Creed called the Apostles Creed b Ruffin Symb. Ruffinus witnesseth who lived about 500. yeeres after Christ that it was not at all in the Creed in his time I say not at allâ— neither in the Romane Creed nor yet in the Creed of the Easterne Churches His words are these Sciendum sanè est quod in Ecclesiae Romanae symbolo non habetur additum Deseendit ad inferna sed nee in Orientis Ecclesiis habetur hic sermo Will you say Ruffinus lyeth Or can you bring to the contrarie any proofe I think not yea I am sure you can not Then if there were no such Article as this nor anie such wordes any where in the Creed for the space of 500. yeres after Christ I mervaile what authoritie they haue now to be taken necessarily for a distinct article in our Creed and as differing materially from Dead and Buried Sure it is a Namely Desâ—â—â—le Hades to new to be receaved for doctrine which b Pag. 13â— sprang vp so late Yea thus c Erasm 〈◊〉 Symb. Caâ—â— 4. Erasmus may seeme to haue some colour for his coniecture that about Thomas Aquinas time they might peradventure be put into this Creed Third we can not see but that whensoever whosoever put it first into this place they signified heereby it seemeth that Christ went to Limbus a place vnder the earth where they imagined the blessed Patriarkes rested For this was indeed the opinion generally of the ancient Christians even for “ Limbus inter tayâ— before Châ—â— descendinâ— bades waâ— our set â—câ— oâ— the Crâ—â— a long time and stil is retayned among the Papistes though now growen much worse theÌ„ it was of old But this you iustly coÌ„demne as an error as wel as we how generall and how ancient soever it be Now also though this were the 1st meaning of this Article whensoever it fiâ—fte tooke place in the common Creed yet this was not Hell this giveth no furtherance to your assertion that Christ went into the place of the Damned in tormentes But Thaddaeus Jgnatius Athanasius haue these very words Yet they say not any where that they were in that set forme of the Apostles Creed * Which â—â—deed they 〈◊〉 had not which we now have Also they are cleane against your opinion heere as presently wee shall see You will say yet
acknowledge mine errour Adde heerevnto that experience sheweth as Physitians say how som diseases in the Body bring Death presently after most strong and violent crying namely in som excessiue torments as of the Stone c. Where in through extreeme paines and torments the vitall Spirits being dissipated will bee vtterly extinct somtimes before they can recover and gather againe togeather Thus a man having good strength and force in his Body when such a disease resteth not neere the principall partes of nature originally it seemeth hee may notwithstanding by violence of paine onely giue vp the Ghost at a suddaine yet not miraculously but by the course of nature only Pag 7. Ad Hedib quaest 8. But * Ierom saith this was a great wonder and that therevpon the Centurion confessed truly this man was the Sonne of God I deny not but Christ might shew som strang vnusuall thing apparantlie to the beholders in vttering his last voice when he cryed Father into thy hands I commend my Spirit Which might also very much move the beholders and hearers And yet it shall not follow that Death seazed vpon him not naturally or not by the fayling of natures strength in him I say this may be acknowledged and yet verily there is no necessitie at all to yeeld even this for any thing that the text noteth Yet Ierom sayeth the Centurion was moved with this great wonder It is strange that you should persist to vrge Jerom heerein against the plaine text in another place Mat. 27.54 which saith When the Centurion saw the Earth quake and the thinges that were don he said Truly this was the Sonne of God â—er 51. Heere it is expresly noted that the * Earthquake chiefly with other apparant miracles there mentioned or els the Earthquake with the the iniuries of the Persecutours and the innocency and partience of Christ persecuted compared togeather did move the Centurion to confesse and say Truly this was the Sonne of God Heere it is plaine then that not Christes crying in those tormentes was such a wonder or that the Centurion was by reason thereof moved to acknowledge Christ to be the Sonne of God as Ierom collecteth I know not from what ground but those other sights before said Last of all Austin is brought to prove this matter Pag 8. but with no more strength of reason by the Scripture then the former Neither can his words indeed being granted necessarily conclude any thing for your purpose which as sâ—emeth do shew nothing but Christes voluntary dying and that at his death he â—hewâ—d great power and not infirmity only Who denyeth thâ—se things Thâ—n he proceedeth to shew my disdaine to the Fathers further namâ—ly for such “ pag 2â— insolent reiecting all their opinions touching the causes of Christs Agonie in the Garden and of his complaint on the Crosse These supposed causes are alleaged and amplifiâ—d in the †pag 1â— former parte For answere first I dâ—siâ—e to know whether you allow of all these causes or not you sâ—â—me to â—â—fuse them * pag 13â— heere for heerein you shewed not your owne opinion but â—he iudgments of the Fathers Elswhere “ pag 29 yourselfe are resolute for som of these causes and against other som And yet before * pag 37 All these interpretations you say are sound and stand well with the rules of Christian piety Thus variable you are in that wherein you seeme most resolut Howbâ—it in my minde where you deny these to bee your opinions there you are in the best opinion Neither indeede to tell you plaine can I be of opinion that those their iudgements are true pag â—â— The reasons of my dissenting were touched in †my former Treatise and are maintayned further heereafter as very sufficient and iust How then I pray you do I insolently reiect the Fathers if heerein I dissent from them iustly which even your selfe also doth in sundry of them But my maner of speach is insolent perhaps because I say such collections are absurd and vnlikely I answer these my words are purposely meant of those in these dayes that delight to vaunt of the Fathers and chiefly in their errours For seeing these opinions themselues are vntrue though some of the Fathers inclined after them yet such in our time as vrge them cannot but bee absurd and strang teachers Who having so many helpes and meanes to discerne where the Fathers mistookâ— which they vtterly wanted and we abound with all yet do so littlâ— profit by them that even great Doctours as they desire to bee thought see not so much in the truth of the Gospel as many younger men now peâ—câ—ave and in the Fathers they make themselves so cunning that commonly their sound doctrine they little regard their faults only they admire Such I meant and tooke for absurd gatherers from this Scripture Whom heere I noted by the namâ— of our Contraryes The Fathers I call not so Now that this indâ—ed may be also seene even in your expounding heere Consider first how you wavered and spake coÌ„trarily in these supposed Causes Christs subâ—â—ssion â—â—e lewes reâ—ction â—â—e Churches â—â—spersion 〈◊〉 pa 17 â— â—2 37. Treat 1. â—ag 68. as I noted a litle before Again these agree not with any Ciâ—cumstances of the Passion and so are meerely of Humane coniecture without all Scripture also they agree not togeather among themselves One of them crosseth another one overthroweth another Will you then avouch them as you do to be * all sound and to stand well with the rules of Christian piety Howbeit absolutely I dâ—ny not but that thâ—se or some of these reasons were in Christ at his Passion as namely his Care for his Church his love of his enemies c. For these holy affections hee never wanted all his life long But this rather confuteth then proveth these to bee the very cause or causes that †in the hower of his dreadfull Passion wrought in him such Agonies and consternation of minde â—ag 6. But these things heere I omit beeing heereafter more fully discussed Lastly you cast a needles rebuke vpon me for confounding the Causes of the Agonie and of the Complaint togeather 〈◊〉 230.231 Forsooth that was done not without reason I thinke Every reasonable man I beleeve will say that the same cause was of them both in Christ His Agonie and his Complaint are not so contrary nor so divers but that they might yea verily did proceed from the same cause and ground Yea Ambrose 〈◊〉 20. one of your Authours doeth * plainly ioine theÌ„ both togeather 〈◊〉 231. Yea your selfe doth also as by comparing †your cause of the Agonie 〈◊〉 34. with your 1. or 2. of the ‡ Complaint will appeare You have much cause then have you not to make such outâ—â—yes vpon me that I am strangely amazed confounded and forgetfull in my writing Good wordes I pray you I did but ioyne them togeather whom your selfe
his meere bodily Death which he so wofully and impotently feared as I haue before sufficiently coÌ„firmed Therefore it was the death of the soule the 2. Death which heere is vnderstood to have thus mightily afflicted Christ Which also your own selfe do d Pag. â—â— fully grant and affirme with me Yea you affirme further then we doe or then the truth is or possibly can be You say Christ heere thus feared Eternall death and Everlasting damnation What a speach is this Christ could not possibly feare in such wofull maner that which he perfitly knew should never come neere him But he perfitly knew that eternall Death and the Cup of Gods everlasting malediction should never touch him He knew and saw that this by Gods almighty and vnchangeable Decree was set further from him then the East is from the West yea then Hell is from HeaveÌ„ Therefore he could not by any meanes possibly feare eternall death nor pray in such sort against it Againe that which he feared and so pitifully prayed against was that which he knew was by God e Iohn 12 ordayned for him Yea Feare alwayes is of that which is to come But Eternall death was not by God ordayned for him that was “ Which Christ 〈◊〉 right wâ— not to come vnto him Therfore it was not Eternall death which he so feared Finally when in the Garden he prayed against that Cup which he feared that it might passe from him there he yeeldeth and submitteth himselfe presently to the vndergoing of it But it were I know not what to say that Christ did ever yeeld and submit himselfe to vndergo Eternall death or to tast the Cup of Gods everlasting malediction Therefore it was not this that he feared heere prayed against And yet it was I grant the Death of the Soule or the 2. Death that is simply the essense thereof Gods withdrawing himselfe from him in the Paines and torments thereof This onely it was He suffer that deatâ— which he feared not the eternity thereof nor sinfull concomitants which he thus feared And this for the infinitnes of it naturally he could not but feare yea and that so extreamely also he feared f â—ôzein for him selfe as knowing it to be ordayned for him So that hence it followeth invincibly that Christ in deed suffered sith he thus feared more then the meere bodily Death even the Death of the soule For he could not I say thus * Much yeeld to iâ— he did sâ—â—ing Thy â—â—â—don feare but he must needs know that it was to come or might com vnto him â—wed furâ—â— before 131.132 if he but knew that it might come then it * certainly did come vnto him at one time or other in his Passion before heâ— left the world See to the Hebr. g Christ abolished through death him that had the power of death that is the Divell and so delivered all them which for feare of death were all their life time subiect to bondage â—â—b 2.14 Heere I see no reason in the world but that the Apostle by â—his often repeating of death and by mutuall referring of it in one place as it were to the other doth vnderstand signifie one and the same death altogeather But it is the death of the Soule which the Divell hath the power and execution of also the death of the soule chiefly sinful men were held in feare of all their life long It followeth then I suppose that even through this death of the Soule Christ abolished the Divell and deliveted his children Specially seeing there is no enormity nor impossibilitie heerein Against this you haue no reason at all but wordes and wrestings and vaine ostentation of Fathers none of them all denying our sense Third it seemeth also that Peter teacheth this same Pet. 3.18 saying k Christ in his suffering was don to death in the Flesh but made alive by the Spirit Where Death may be very well referred both to the Soule and Body of Christ Because the text heere speaketh as I iudge of the whole and entire sufferings of Christ And it is manifest by that before that Christ did suffer not in his body only but properly and immediatly also in his Soule we haue seene also that the * phrase of Death 〈◊〉 135.136 or Dying may in a good sense be applyed even to Christes Soule Againe this word Flesh it seemeth can not heere in this place be vnderstood to signifie onely the Body of Christ but even both partes of his Humane nature thar is the reasonable Soule and the body My reason is because wheresoever in scripture the Flesh and the Spirit are noted oppositly togeather in Christ â—â—m 1.3 4. â—im 3.16 â—oh 4.2 〈◊〉 1.14 â—or 5.7 â—4 1.4.1 â—â—g 320. there the i Flesh signifieth alwayes his whole Humanity even both partes thereof the Soule also not the Body only the Spirit signifieth his Deity or Divine power Now what have you against this Nothing of waight but floutes and mockes that k this observation is made out of the hinder partâ— of my head c. But what pretend you against it Some Scripture palpably abused First Mathew where Christ speaketh of his Disciples that their Spirit their inward regenerat man was ready to watch â—ath 26. but their Flesh their corrupt nature was weak sluggish What is this to Christes Flesh and Spirit Thinke you that Christs Soule was willing to suffer as God had appointed but that his Flesh resisted Verily so you seeme heere to vnderstand An vntrâ—â— conceit and it is as likely as your applying of Flesh and Spirit to Christ in your pag. 104. Then a Luk. 2. Luke where both Spirit and Flesh are not intended of Christ as our observation before requireth but only the Flesh Then the Romanes where I affirme that b Rom. Flesh signifieth the whole Manhood of Christ according to the which he came from David even as well as SalomoÌ„ or Nathan did who were Davids sonnes in their entire and perfit nature So likewise Christe was kinne to the Iewes according to his c Rom. 9 whole Humanitie aswel as d ver 3. Paul was And heere Paul meaneth him selfe to be kinne to them according to Nature wholly that only by Regeneration in the Gospell he was differing from them Now Nature opposed to Grace and regeneration hath reference both to Soule and Body in a man Howsoever the Soule cometh in Generation that is not heere considered neither is it necessarily to the purpose Which difficulty also your selfe haue vtterly * Pag. 2â— renouÌ„ced before to make it any argument for you in this matter Thus yet the Flesh and the Spirit thus opposed heere in Christ shall signifie the whole Manhood and Godhead in him Further that which e Pa. 32 you bring out of the f 2. Corâ— Corinthians compared with this in Peter doeth most fitlie and clearely open and confirme the
do nor vnderstand in them any of their fancyes and errors which by their doctrine otherwise they refute nevertheles they may and do vnderstand the generall truth signified in them whatsoever the Heathens vsed by them to signifie and imply And thus is our worde in controversy Hades cleered But to cleere the rest also of those which b Pag. 36â— you obiect Sec we are to observe that the Apostles transfer the Heathens Civill words many times to their Ecclesiasticall vse namely keeping yet still the proportion of their former sense As in these Apostle Bishop Deacon Gospell Law Sinne Repenâ—ance Hope Conscience Concupisence c. Which change is small and easy sith the words have a iust proportion still togeather both in Civill and Ecclesiasticall vse Onely if any difference or oddes be it is expresly vttered in some part of the Apostles doctrine besides There is no such cause nor matter of difference to be found in Hades Third The Apostles do vse some wordes kat ' éxochen by an excellencie yet in no point altering the native vse or property of them â—â—â—a all the 〈◊〉 before â—â—â—med or â—â—â—t oâ— them 〈◊〉 â—e conâ—â—â—ed also â—â—â—er this â—â—â—e â—ag 403. a Thus Scripture is vsed commonly for the Word of God only Diábolos for the Divell although sometimes other writings are called also Scripture and other Accusers and slanderers Diaboloi But neither hath this consideration any place in Hades that in Scripture it should signifie chiefly Hell much lesse only Which thing b you avouch Lastly Som think the Apostles altered the worde Faith from the Passive sense of it importing Faithfulnes and honestie as the Heathens commonly vsed it to the Active sense which is True beliefe or Trust vsed in the Scriptures which you also obiect But I suppose the Apostles tooke this Active sense of the word Faith froÌ„ the Old Testament meerely translating the Hebrue into Greeke For I see not what difference at all there is betweene c Pistis â—â—â—om 1.17 â—â—â—bac 2.4 and d Emunah whereby the Iewes signified Faith to salvation Which is reason enough for this vse thereof in Greeke by the Apostles namely if it bee a Hebraisme though it bee not very suteable to the Heathens vse thereof The like I iudge of Elder Law Sinne c. But Hadès for Hell hath no like reason Further I think even the Heathens have vsed this word Faith sometime Actively as the Gospell vsually hath it likewise the Gospel abhorreth not altogeather the Passive vse of it for Faithfulnes Lastly if it were so that the Apostles did follow no other reason but meerely transferred that word from the Civill passive to the Ecclesiasticall active vse we say on necessity they might do it For having some Spirituall doctrine to deliver and the ordinary speach wanting some fit word for the same then they might yea of necessity they were forced to take some word neerest in nature and sense to their purpose so they might give to that word a peculiar Ecclesiasticall vse further then anciently it had But Hades for Hell hath no help by this reason they tooke the word Gehenna from the Hebrewes and vsed it properly for Hell Therefore they need not alter hades for that purpose for which they had another proper word It is manefest then that the Apostles stil kept the proportion of the sense in all their words translated from the common and vsuall speach of the Heathen so far as any reason of truth might be alike in both so they spake indeed still the tounge and language of the Nations and therefore Hades with the Apostles can not be properly Hell as even with Heathens also properly it was never I suppose yet you will say The Fathers take Hades for Hell I answered a Pa. 1 before how they sometime take it determinatly and strictly so they signifie Hell by it Somtime they take it largely generally according to the Ancient Heathens vse and so they signifie by it nothing but the generall state of Death pertayning alike both to good and bad deceased as I have declared Thus you get nothing by them albeit sometime theâ— restraine the worde Hades more then they ought to restraine it Heere also were place to have added somwhat for iustifying that I said The Fathers do alter the ancient true vse of som words both Greeke and Latin from whom in controversies we ought to appeale to their authentike vse in Scripture and Classicall authors But because b Pag. 3â— you send me about ChirotonÃa to another place I am content to examine what you have there to the contrary Which seeing it draweth me into further matter therevnto appertaining I will differre for this time Hitherto we have tryed the nature and vse of Hades and have found it to be not properly Hell as c Pag. 1â— 171. 40 you avouch No not when it is applyed to soules of men deceased And therefore also that it can not be so vnderstood in Act. 2.27 where it is applyed to Christs Soule after he was dead Which yet is the only place that you have to pretend How thâ—â— in Act. â— may siâ—â—â— and trâ—â—â— vndersâ—â—â— Now something more you bring for your purpose from the Circumstances of this Text which we must consider But first let vs simply and plainly vnderstaÌ„d the same according to our former true declaration of the nature and vse of Hades Where the text is Thou wilt not leaue my Soule in Hades or to Hades we may simply take Hades for the invisible state or place of the deceased And so supplying the defect of a word which must be vnderstood thus we may say eis ton topon or chôran hadou in the place or region of the invisible state or b Aithér dou Or before pâ—â—â— 173.17 World of the Deceased Otherwise we may take it simply for Deaths force strength and power supplying also the same words eis ton topon or ten chôran hadou in that place where the power and strength of Death prevaileth and holdeth the deceased Soules from their Bodyes This is the World of the Dead implying nothing ells but ap estate opposit to our Visible estate in this world Thus may hades be fuly taken sith I have largely proved before how Hades Thanatoâ— Death are in effect all one and may both be applyed even to iust mens Soules deceased but hades more easily naturally Last of all we may take hades heere by a Prosopopoea conceaving it to be as it were som Person of vnresistable power taking away withholding from hence al mens Souls departed Howbeit this power was controlled and loosed by God in Christes Resurrection And then we may construe it thus eis ten chóran topon or oikian Hadou in the place region or habitation of this mighty power Or eis to kratos exousian dynamin or epikratian tou Hadou to the strength power or dominion of this Destroyer of life Thus howsoever we take it though
h Through death Christ destroyed him that had the power of death that is the Divell Pag. 179. Whereby i it is evident that Hell is spoyled of all right and claime to the members of Christ hee brake c. I hope in this life the godly are the members of Christ then in this life they are fully freed from Hell for euer Wherfore it is very vntrue that Hell properly taken hath any possession of the iust and handfast or power on them or that Hell is not fully subdued for them vntill the Resurrection I graunt that the common death heere is called an enemy Cor. 15.26 but he meaneth not such an Enemy as Hell is especially as this is spoken touchinge the godly Yet it is an Enemie even to them not as any Curse at all but as a Memoriall consequent of the old Curse like as a scarie is where was a deadly wound also as a peaceable and quiet stopp or stay vnto them â—â—ea because 〈◊〉 is painâ—ull â—o the flesh in 〈◊〉 his life that their whole persons cannot yet enioy their appointed felicitie Howbeit for all this toward them it hath not the least affinitie with Hell at all Therfore Hades heere in no sort signifyeth Hell but only Death or the power of Death or the world and kingdom of Death or something to that effect onely Yea the very text seemeth thus to expound it selfe saying Where is thy sting O Hades The sting of Death is sinne Where the later seemeth a very direct answer and exposition of the former words Thus The sting of Death or Hades is sinne noting these 2. wordes Hades and Death as Synonimaes for one thing beeing applyed to men Or if “ Pag. 408. you will haue them to differ He may take Hades for the * As it vtterly â—aketh away 〈◊〉 witholdeth â—rom a visible â—â—ate Power strength of Death which the brain-sick Idolators made a God or the Dominion and Kingdome of Death These respectes Hades might well haue with the Apostle which differ from Thanatos Death the meere separation of the Soule from the Body which yet in effect are all one and haue no difference touching our purpose Like as we saw a Pa. 1â— c. 1 before howe all Authours have vsed them Further The Grave of the Wicked is not to be nâ—med nor reckoned Hell properly nor any part thereof In Hell there wanteth not sense of paine If you say it is an entrance to hell and that which holdeth and reserveth the wicked vnto hell Yet then it is not Hell for even thus the Grave and Hell doe greatly differ Finally Hades is b See 〈◊〉 pag. 1â— adversarie to the Resurrection But Hell would not bee adversarie to the Resurrection Therefore Hades heere is not hell no not to the wicked Death in deed and the Dominion of Death is an adversarie to the Resurrection and at that day it shal be vanquished and vtterly abolished when all flesh shall liue againe As for Hell that shall increase theÌ„ and bee advanced when all the wicked both bodyes and Soules shal be subdued vnder it for ever Therfore Hades heere is not hell but the power of Death as hath bene saide or the Dominion of Death or meerely to that effect Also we are to note that the Apostle heere plainly alludeth to that of Hoseah c Hose O Sheol ò kingdom of death or power of ' Death I wil be thy destruction Not o Hell For the Prophet speaketh this to comfort Israel in their captivitie against their continuall Destructions and razings out from this world shewing that now the Lord would stay his iudgement that way Death which had consumed them should now destroy them no more but they should liue and flourish againe This the Apostle might notably allude vnto speaking of the ResurrectioÌ„ As for Hell if the Prophet had meant it as he doeth not the Apostle could make no allusion to it nor haue any thing to deale wch it in this matter of the ResurrectioÌ„ simply So that where you say what reason is there to exclude out of these words Christs victorie over Hell it is very weake What reason is there to include it where the Apostle speaketh only of our resurrection from bodily Death and of nothing els Next we come to the RevelatioÌ„ First a Rev. I have the Keyes of Hades that is of Destruction or of the * The â—â—ble wâ—â—â— the Dâ—â—â— kingdome of death and of Death Or we may take them as 2. words for one and the same thing that is both of them for Death For heere Christ sheweth only that as He was dead so nowe he hath overcome Death hath power to dy no more as I hauâ— b Treaâ— pa 11â— heeretofore noted What shew of reason haue c Pa 17 you then to bringe in heere Christes power over the Damned Soules in Hell Because there is mention â—lswhere of the Key of hell Therefore the Key of hâ—des heer is the same What color of reasoÌ„ is there in this Again a One sitteth on a pale horse whose name was Death Rev. 6.8 Hades Desâ—â—â—on the world of the Dead or the Kingdom of Death followed aâ—ter â—â—m Thâ—â— in no wise can be Hel because the text addeth Power 〈…〉 them to slay with the sword and with samine and death and with wilde beasts Hell slayeth none in that sorte these are not the weapons of Hell but of the Dominion and Power of Death thâ—se and such other mo â—ag 406. are the proper weapons b You take it to bâ— the power of the Divell because the Divell slayeth somâ—times the bodyes of men Which you proue by the bodily slaying and siniting of Iob and his children This indeed is the thing which we holde This is not the Torments of Hell in the place of Damned these be onely bodily harmes and death So that heereby you confirme our purpose for we denie not but God somtime vseth Satan to punish and to slay the bodies of men But seeing this is nothing but Death not Hell which then is inflicted therefore it is bâ—st to take Hades heere most generally as the nature of it is for the Power of Death or the world of the Dead Hell by no meanes it can be â—â—g 398. You tell me in c one place that my best skill is in varying phrases It is better to vary phrases then to vary opinions as you very often doe I vary phrases to expresse Hades which in Authours is not alwayes the same thing or at least not after the same maner Whose generall largenes which it properly hath can not in one word be expressed in English Wherefore my varying of phâ—ases to this purpose I hope is pardonable sith indeed it is necessarie That coÌ„iecture of mine of the 4th part of the worlde 's not going to Hell at once I never esteemed it worth the standing on I he last place is †Death and Hades
it Nâ—â—nim ipsâ—â— in celo â—â—rus crat â—â—mo Chrâ—â— Iesus Divine presense in Paradice But you refuse that because * Pag. 21 wee have no warrant in the word of God to fasten Christs Soule vnto Hell for the time of his Death that it might not be in Paradise before he descended to Hell Third You “ Pa. 196 renounce Austen and as he saith almost all the Church thinking that Christ loosed Adam and som others whom he thought good out of the paines of Hell wherein till his going thither they were held Fourth Against all the Fathers * Pa. 188 200. you affirme it to bee more then manefest that Christ did not fetch the Patriarches out of Limbo Patrum a certaine region of rest vnder the earth as they generally thought Fift “ Pa. 18â— You renounce divers Fathers opinion that * None eâ—â— Martyrs tull none do go into Heaven till after the last Judgment Thus we observe your liberty in leaving the Fathers when you see cause Why deny you vnto vs the like If we bring not as good reason to dissent as you do whensoever we vary from them let vs heare of it and beare the blame iustly This only we desire that in any case of Religion the bare custom of times the opinioÌ„ of men and authority meerely Humane should never barre vs from receaving the simplicity and evidence of the truth concerning vs which appeareth in the Scripture But now that we may proceede let vs see your speciall examples pag. 229. wherein you will make it manefest that J have despised the Fathers First pag. 229. * where you say out of certaine Fathers That Christ in his dying gaue vp his Spirite miraculously pag. 7. * no violence of Death wresting it from him as it doth ours pag. 229. but when hee saw his time hee even at an instant laid it downe of himselfe no paines hastening his death Heb. 4.15 Contrary to this I alleaged the Scripture He was like vs in all things sinne only excepted To answer this * you reply Was he like vs in his birth Pag. 230. Can we lye in the Grave without corruption as he lay Neither yet his flesh ly he Grave hoat possiâ—â—y to cotâ—â—t otherwise â—n as his â—â—es possibly â—â—d not be â—â—en Or raise our selves from death as he did Which poore answere I wonder to see comming from you Aswell you might shew further He was not like vs in that he walked vpon the water nor in that he fasted 40. dayes nor in that he knew the secrets of mens hearts nor in that he turned water into wine and with a word healed all diseases c. These things don by his Manhood yet were they the proper effects of his Godhead they were no naturall but supernaturall thinges But this text to the Hebrues saith onely of naturall Humane properties and infirmities that Christ in them was altogeather like vs sinne excepted Also this maner of Dying whereof we speake that is by sore wounds and blowes by sharpe outrages and deadly paines to draw neerer and neerer to Death is a meere natural infirmity and incident to all men Therefore surely in this very maner did Christ dy also like as all men vse to do in such case Againe those Divine effectes which you mention are iustly beleeved to haue bene in Christ Why Because of the expresse Scripture that * witnesseth the same 〈◊〉 1.23 25.1.2.27 â—â—â—n 1.3 4. â— 1.10.18 Let mee see expresse words in the text that he Dyed as you say not naturally but Miraculously and then will I beleeue it also You cite certain places by which you would prove it â—â—h 10.18 As No man taketh my soule from me but J lay it down of my selfe c. Hee meaneth heere that his Death was meere voluntary freely vndertaken and willingly of his owne accord perfourmed with such naturall and ordinary infirmities as belong to a man As you confesse somwhere * So that to dy even in Christ â—â—g 161. was infirmity though voluntary Heere then Christ denyeth that hee suffered any thing as forced on him by constraint violence but he sheweth that himselfe was altogeather willing even to Dy for his people which also “ pag. 11â— you plainly see How will you hence conclude Ergo He dyed miraculously not by any fayling of the strength of nature in him notwithstanding all his most intolerable sorrowes and paines This is truly a miraculous argument As for Chrisostom whom * pag. â—3â— you cite heerevpon he hath nothing for this point Though it were new not ordinary that Christ a man should haue power to lay down his life and power to take it againe yet why may not his manhood dy naturally notwithstanding But you will conclude this better If I deny you say this that Chrisostom saith I must remember what God himself saith “ Luc. 12. O foole this night shall they fetch away thy soule from thee I remeÌ„ber it well What then Ergo Christ saying None taketh my life from me c. meant that he would dy miraculously and not by the fayling of nature in him If this be the reason as I take it to bee verily I grant it is marveylous subtile and past my reach Further * pag. 7. you cite that “ Ion. 19. When Jesus had tasted the vineger he said All is finished and bowed the head and gave vp the Ghost What proveth this Surely that at last after long and sore anguish of minde and bodily torments his naturall strength fayled him therefore he bowed his head and gaue vp the Ghost What miracle is there in this But Barnard saith this proveth plainly an infinit power Which doth His tasting the vineger or his saying it is finished or his bowing the head or his giving vp the Ghost For my part I can not yet see any infinit power in any of these Wherefore I can not rest on Barnard heere except you for him do finde out som other point in the text to prove plainly an infinit power shewed openly in the maner of the Death of Christ which yet I see not Giue me leaue to refuse the Fathers in such a case which your selfe doth as we saw before Then you alleage that * Luke 23. Iesus cryed with a lowd voyce a little while before he dyed to shew himself “ pag 7. say you to be free from any touch of death How are you sure of that What Scripture saith so Or is there absolut necessitie in reason that it must be so Questionles none at all Is it a thing not possible that Christ should cry alowd saying Father into thy hands J commend my Spirit and even anon after dy and yet nature to haue ben weaker in him and so himself neerer to death now at last then he was before in the beginning of his Passion Let all wise men iudge If this be not possible I will
â—â—s heere â—â—g 16. e that no more but the shedding of his bloud onely and meerely is the iust and full satisfaction of all our sinnes even in the righteous and sincere iudgment of God Then we absolutly deny your Assertion as before we haue don the like As for your a 1 Pet. 1 Rev. 5. â— alleaged Scriptures we answer them as we did generally b Treat pag. 8.9 before that they meane not the meere bloud of Christ nor only the body singly and simply considered but that togeather with the proper sufferings of his Soule also they were the iust and full satisfaction and redemption Against which you have nothing any where And likewise our advised and resolut answere is to c pag. 58 60 61 7â— c. all the rest of your scriptures which most tediously and vainly you heape vp scatter every wherein your former treatise to this effect as if they contayned somwhat for your purpose when as indeed there is not one text any where that hath any meaning of your strange conceit So that wee shall have no need to trouble our selves any more heereafter about any of them Yet d pag. 24â— heere you vrge a reason against vs Jf our Soules be not redeemed by the bloud of Christ our bodyes have no benefit of redemption you meane from death But we e 1. Pet. 1 Rev. 5.9 are redeemed not we shal be Ergo it is our Soules which are redeemed our bodyes are not redeemed as yet in this life Wherein we have to note 3. things 1. Your Proposition is vaine and illogicall having no consequence in it at all Which maketh mee to thinke that I hit your meaning right and mistooke you not in my former booke Howbeit to try this your sentence heere what if our Soules were not at all redeemed by Christes bloud but some other way or not by his bloud meerely and onely which indeede is our quaestion will it follow that therefore our bodyes are still mortall and therefore not redeemed from death Or what if our Soules be redeemed by his bloud as indeed they are though not wholly nor only thereby What followeth then from this Nay what if our Soules and Bodyes were redeemed wholly and only by Christs bloud Is these any consequence that therefore our bodyes should now be redeemed from death and never dy Truly I cannot discerne but that your proposition meaneth some such consequence as this which is to me a vey strang reason Yet that which you ad f Pag. 2â— afterward is more strang Jf our Soules be not redeemed wholly by the meere bloud of Christ For thus still I say you must make your wordes or ells you aske the very Quaestion then our bodyes have vtterly no good even no good at all by the death of Christ. In which sequele verily I can see neither head nor taile Chose you now whether you will that you speake this sophistically or absurdly For I cannot discerne it I leave it therefore to your self to determine But perhaps you will yet againe go backe to that you excused your selfe withall before You will meane that our bodies in this life have no benefit of redemption from death even no more then the bodies of Infidels And this plainly you avouch for truth Is this true Are not our bodies now already freed from the curse the sting of death from all the hurt harme that properly and naturally is in death Is it not made vnto vs a quiet sleepe and a peaceable rest an entrance for our Soules into Heaven a putting off of sin to our bodies in such wise that Christ taketh from it the a name of Death and calleth it but b a passage â—oh 8.51 Or have the Jnfidels also thus much benefit in death â—oh 5 2â— as wee have in it by our redemption in Christe I know not therefore how to terme this your assertion I forbeare to name it as it deserveth it is more then strange that Infidels bodies should have as much benefit of nedemption from death as our bodies have by Christ Dy I grant or cease to breath we must and do still even as they do And this death by the naturall property of it is a part of Gods Curse but to the faithful there are great benefits ioyned even in death by the gracious dealing of God peculiarly towardes his children which also their bodies are partakers of thorough the death of Christ The naturall sting is taken out of it for the godly yet it remayneth to the Infidells and hurteth them by retayning even their bodies though dead in vnder Gods dreadfull Curse Wherefore it makes many to thinke that indeed you vttered this matter somewhat otherwise in your Sermons then heere you doe now publish it and it perswadeth mee still that c I mistooke you not â—â—eat 1. â—â—g 11. seeing this your turning setting of it is so vnhansom For every one may see by this your handling of it that then you said more then heere you expresse and heere you would faine fashion it to somwhat but you cannot Yea your own words bewray som alteration froÌ„ that which so confidently you preached where you say Whatsoever the wordes were that you might vse which you do not acknowledge to be these that I bring â—ag 240. Lastly d you grant that you vsed this reason in handling the power of Christes death that is when you preached it For now in this Treatise you have cleane left it out for ought that e I can see which bewrayeth that it was such 〈◊〉 88.113 as your selfe saw was not to be maintayned howsoever heere you strive to set some colour vpon it though yet still in vaine Before we depart from this point That not the bloud of Christ nor his flesh meerely and only without respect to the merit of his whole Soule was the full price of Redemption heere is fit place to shew how sundry of the Ancient Fathers do agree with vs sufficiently in this matter although afterward in your booke you seeme to bring them against vs. But indeed so they seeme onely for in truth they are with vs as by these following we may see First a Ireâ— 5. Irenaeus The Lord bought vs with his owne bloud and gave his soule for our soules his flesh for our flesh b Cyr. de 〈◊〉 fid ad Tâ—â— Cyrill He bestowed his flesh as a ransome for our flesh and made his Soule likewise a price of redemption for our Soules although he lived againe being by nature life it selfe c Naz. in trâ—â— 49. ad Clâ—â— Nazianzen maketh every part of man to be sanctified by the like in Christ our condemned flesh by his flesh our soule by his soule our vnderstanding by his vnderstanding d Ambr. 〈◊〉 Luc. 22. 〈◊〉 trist doloâ—â— c. Ambrose saith Maerorem animae nostrae suae animae maerore abolevit He abolished the sorrow of our Soule by the sorrow of
will disprove d Treat â—â— pag. 19. my Proposition which is whereby Adam first sinned by the same Christ satisfied for sinne You deny this because the Scripture acknowledgeth no satisfaction but by death where still we must note that you meane only by the Bodily death Now how proove you that Because the iudge in prohibiting Adam to transgresse threatned death e Ocn. 2. Jn the day that thou catest thereof thou shalt dye the death Which it seemeth f Pa. 100. 64. you avouch againe and againe And are you sure that Death heere is but the bodily death only no more Then surely the wicked should satisfie easilie for their sinnes Far be it from me to vtter such a sentence Neverthelesse you must give me leave to shew you also your contradiction in this point First in that where you acknowledge g Pag. 42. the Iudges revenge for sinne is Death both of body and soule Againe where you h Pag. 18. agree with Athanasius shewing expresly that this text intendeth even both these Anima dixit Morte morieris He saide to the Soule Thou shalt dy the death But you would prove your matter againe by this Hebr. 9.15 a Through death which was for our redemption we receaue the promise Yet he saith not Through his bodily death meerely and alone and by nothing els togeather therewith which is your intent He excludeth not the Soules proper sufferings as b I have often said Treat 1. the contrarie heereof you never come neere to proove And it must not be forgotten Pag. 8 9. that c heere â—ou renounce all satisfaction for sinne in respect of merit as from Christes soule vtterly Pag. 253. Therefore that absurd speech and worse which you d vniustly cast on me Pa. 250. c. proveth in very deed to be your owne that Christes suffering in Soule by Sympathy makes not to our redemption Your own place in Barnard maketh Christes whole Soule that is the Minde and the part depending on the Body also to have place and part in the meritorious sacrifice Pag. 84. as well as the Body e Vt totum hominem salvum fecit sic de Toto se hostiam fecit salutarem Which suteth not with your wordes The Soule of Christ which could not dye could not pay the satisfaction and nothing might satisfie for sinne but death Pag. 85 86 8. c. Yea all your f other places of Contradiction herevnto must be taken in good part As for your reason That nothing may satisfie for sinne but death it is not sound The Scriptures doe shew in deed that Christ should not satisfie without Death but they deny not that there are other partes of Christes Satisfaction which differ from Death As his bloudshed and besides that Christs Povertie his hunger his wearines his shame his reproches his apprehension his buffeting c. These doubtles yea all other suffringes of Christ whatsoever small or great are satisfactorie meritorious You will say you vnderstand all these and such like in the Death of Christ You may vnderstand what you list but who will grant in proper speech that these are his Death or that his death is any or all these And if you take Christes death by the Figure Synecdoche a part of Christes sufferings for the whole Pag. 41. c. then why doe g you so much abhorre that Figure heere and why may not the Soules proper sufferings be admitted also into the worke of Christes Satisfaction although it can not properly dye Where you nippe me also for saying that the Soule of Christ in some kinde of sense dyed I hope in due place you shall have a reasonable answer to that matter Till then have patience I pray And thus h you come to skan my Assumption also Pag. 253. that Adam committed sinne most properly in his Soule Which you graunt in one sense is true but directly repugnant to my Conclusion How I pray b Pag. 25 If I meane that Adams Soule transgressed the CoÌ„mandement with her body and by her body that is the Soule as agent the Body as the Instrument theÌ„ the conclusion will follow in spite of my heart Ergo in satisfiing for sinne Christs Soule must be punished with her body and by her body which is the thing I labour to overthrow with all the wits I have Nay then the Conclusion will follow that the immortall part the Minde was punished peculiarly and not by and from the Body onely seeing in all even outward sinnes the Soule sinneth both principally and also in a proper and peculiar maner by it selfe yea before the body sinneth Albeit the Body sinneth also secoÌ„darily and in a maner proper to it selfe even as the Instrument as you say Yea further I meane that some sinnes the Soule acteth in and by it selfe meerely and therefore it suffereth likewise some punishments meerely in it selfe which touch not the Body at all vnlesse by Sympathy only and that only when they grow vehement But all this you heere deny Very stranâ— doctrine teaching that the Soule properly committeth no sinne but by and with the body that is the Soule in it self by it selfe alone sinneth not And so consequently that God temporally and eternally punnisheth the Soule only by the Body This is the true effect of your discourse heere For proofe of the first you say c Pag. 25 God did not say to Adam thou shalt not like d The soâ—â—den fruiâ—â— it or desire it which the Soule of Adam did but thou shalt not eat thereof which could not be performed but by the hand and mouth of Adam And therefore Adam transgressed the Commandment not by his Soule but by his Body even as in murder theft and adultery these factes men commit by their Bodies and not by their Soules And after All provocations and pleasures of sinnes the Soule taketh from her ' Body all actes of sinne she committeth by her body Both which speeches are exceeding vntrue and hurtfull For even in these sinnes the Soule as I said sinneth principally and peculiarly before that the Body sinneth at all Yea the Desiring and Liking of evell is sinne before the outward Act is coÌ„summat and finished This Paul e Rom. 〈◊〉 vnderstood at length when he became a Christian though a long while being a Pharisee he knew it not And it seemeth this was in Christs time the Haeresie of the Pharisees against whom he sheweth that not only the outward fact of Bodily sinne was sinne but also a â—at 5.22.28 even the very thoughts and liking towards sinne Wherefore Adam was as well forbidden to desire or like that fruit as to eat it which you deny The Commandement was naturally ingraven in Adams hearte in his Creation Which since Moses maketh distinct and diverse from all the rest which concerne the outward acte Therefore distinctly he saith Thou shalt not desire or covet So that to desire the forbidden
last day And hence also it is that you say Gods iustice punisheth the soule only by the body that is not till the Resurrection This only the effect of you speach contayneth plainly and fully Yea in truth thus you must needs affirme and hold you can not avoid it if you will hold vour maine Question Only except you deny that Christe had a Humane Soule perfit in all the powers and facultyes thereof like ours or els that God did not properly punish Christ for our sinnes Of necessitie you must fall into one of these dangerous evills for ought that I yet see Wherefore this point is not a Pag â— so easie nor so evident to the simple as you pretend and I thinke you had neede of better reasons then hitherto I see any you have before the Godly and Learned will beleeve you The rather for that in deed heere you committ further 2. grievous faultes 1. Tertullian your owne authour the principall ground which you have for your opinion heere is wonderfully ill vsed 2. You are strangely contrary to your selfe in your very winding vp of the matter As for Tertullian he resolveth directly contrary to the wordes which b De Râ—â—â— carn câ—â—â— Animas 〈◊〉 torquers 〈◊〉 rique peâ—â—â—â—â—ros c you cite from him Saith he The example of Lazarus in the Gospell proveth that Mens Soules though alone and without their bodyes are punished and comforted in the world of the dead The Soule shall lacke the revniting of the flesh with it not for that it can not feele any thing without the flesh but for that it must needes heereafter feele also with the flesh For as much as it sufficeth by it selfe to doe somewhat so much or so farre also it sufficeth to suffer It sufficeth indeed to doe lesse by it selfe For it is able of it selfe only to Thinke to Will to Desire to Dispose but to accomplish it looketh for the vse of the body So therefore it also looketh for the societie of the body that by it the Soule may aswell suffer absolutely as without it she could not doe things compleatly And therefore for what actions it sufficed by it selfe the iudgement of the same it receaveth now that is Of the Desire of the Thoughtes of the Will that it had Thus Tertullian directly answereth to that c Pag. â— Conclusion and d Pag. 2â—â— reasons which you gather out of him proving contrarie to the same that the Soule now without the flesh receaveth iudgement for such actions as of it selfe it was sufficient to doe and it is sufficient to doe certaine actions of it selfe as To thinke to Will to Desire to Order and dispose things but to accomplish it is not able namely outward actions the iudgment of which actions indeed the Soule shall tary for till the revniting againe of the flesh therewith It seemeth that Tertullian cited before the reasons of the e Such a fore not 〈◊〉 Pope Lâ—â— Heretâ—kes holding that the Soules slept till the last iudgement and receaved no reward at all in the meane time for want of the societie of their flesh which till then lieth rotten in the Grave but heere Tertullian answereth and renounceth all this same â—â—s afterâ—ard the â—nhapilies 〈◊〉 now 〈◊〉 And so those were the Heretikes wordes against Tertullian which you alleage out of him in steed of Catholike Which dealing what it is I leave to be considered Next your owne contradictorie dealing in this place is also not to be forgotten For your selfe shutteth vp with an excellent reason against your self almost the same that I observed presently before in Tertullian against your collection Thus you say a Pag. 257. Doe I denie then that the Soule hath any sufferings in this life and the next which come not by the body By no meanes The Soule hath some proper punishments in this life as sorrowe and feare when the body hath no hurt from which Christ was not free as appeareth by his Agonie and so in the next the Soules of the wicked have griefe remorse besides the paine of fire c. Yes surely I suppose you denied before the Soules punishment without the Body But now you seeme to graunt it And seeing you graunt also that b Pag. 25â— nothing is more proportionable to Gods iustice theÌ„ to retayne the same order in punishing which they kept in offending Therefore it foloweth by your owne words that the wicked somtimes sinned meerely in and by their Soules and not onely togeather with and by their Bodies seeing they are punished simply in and by their soules and not onely with and by their bodyes Also how sound this is I wot not c Pag. 257. where you yeeld some punishment now to the Damned how beit none other reall and positive punishment but remorse and remembrance of sinne onely as it seemeth Againe in saying that Christ was not free from some proper punishments to the soule as Sorrow and Feare in his agonie if you meane as you speak that these were proper punishmentes inflicted on him by Gods very Wrath and not to be onely his holy affections Devotion to God and compassion to men which yet d â—esâ—oâ—e â—â—g 18. I feare is your meaning then it foloweth evidently from your own words that Christ suffered proper punishment in his Soule from the verie wrath of God more then the Bodily sufferings only on by Sympathy in the Soule which in a word is the grauÌ„ting of our whol question All the rest that you adde out of the Fathers touching Hell and Hell paines is to no purpose If e 〈◊〉 258.259 you cite them to proove that Christ had no naturall feare of Death and Hell you f â—â—g 22â— gainsay that your selfe further then we doe or then the trueth is Then a Pag. you come to my other Reasons which I called Speciall not for more excellency in them then in the other except onely that I take these to bee not so Generall as the former but more neerely to touch our Quaestion Which you might perceave well enough to have ben my meaning by the expresse Opposition that b Treat pag. 3. I make of Generall and Speciall But it appeareth you had rather take my wordes so as that you may make them to serve your vnseemely iesting and better inveying humour which yet in the end will helpe your cause but little Against b my 1. Reason out of I say that Christ suffered those paines and sorrowes for sinne which els we should have borne you except that I expresse not whether I meane All or Some I answer All and every whit I meane so far as possibllity will admit and namely as touching the very sorrowes and paine Nothing was abated in the nature and vehemency of the paine which hee suffered any more then is abated in the paine and sorrows of the Damned This the very text heere expresseth with great c Which faint intâ—tations 〈◊〉 261.
sunder â—â—g 268. Austin on whom d you triumph is stretched beyond his meaning He dealeth against a Manichee who denyed that Christ had true Humane flesh 〈◊〉 likewise â—â—l the rest â—â—ur Fathers â—â—ken for â—ost part 〈◊〉 sayings â—â—ther aâ—â— the Maâ—â—es or the â—â—s c. 〈◊〉 strove â—bout our â—â—â—ion which yet notwithstanding is manefest because Christ truly dyed Now he proveth that Christ truly dyed because the Apostle saith He was made a Curse for vs in that he hanged on the tree And where it is said Cursed is every one that hangeth on the tree this was saith he to shew that Christ was not exempted but was like other men truly accursed and truly dead So that his meaning is not to shew that Christes whole Curse and his bodily death were iust all one without any differeÌ„ce which you vrge him for nay he hath no such meaning Only he proveth by this that he being made truly a Curse did also truly Dy which the Manichee denyed For in saying Christ was dead accursed for vs is the same he meaneth it is the same for his purpose the one very well proveth the other but not that they were simply all one The rest of e your Fathers are alltogeather idly cited 〈◊〉 95. no man denyeth that which they say Where f you mislike me for saying 〈◊〉 26â— â—â—â—at 1. 〈◊〉 38. g The Curse laid vpon Christ was not onely the ignominie of his death the shame of the world you have nothing against it but much for it Austin whom you boast of is against you in this saying a Pag. â—â— Christ heere tooke on him our punishment without sinne But our punishment which is without sinne doubtles was a great deale more then only the dishonour and shame of the world Austin therefore is manifestly against you in this yea also b Pag. 2 your owne selfe is in saying likewise Austin and Chrysostome and c Pag. 9 other doe say that Christ suffered this ignominie but that this was all or the whole Curse which hee suffered I see none that affirmeth Your many Scriptures in d Pag. 2 this place what doe they Forsooth they prove that it is light at Mid-day For who ever made quaestion but that shame and reproch in their simple Nature were a parte of the true Curse of God Yet all this sheweth not that Shame was the whole Curse which Christ indured e Pag. 2â— You mislike that f Treat pag. 45. I said Christes dying simply g That is Christ haâ—ed simply which in 〈◊〉 he did noâ— as the godly dy may in no sort be called a Curse or Accursed Because as I affirme also h Pag. 44. Death to the godly is no Curse properly nor punishment of sinne but a benefit and advantage Nay therefore Christes Death was properly a Curse because his Death was i As befoâ—â— Pag. 11. 49 59 5 not like theirs You say I am too young a Doctor to controll St Austin herein And I say you are a Doctor not old enough to prove Austin k Your self teth him 〈◊〉 me herein 49. Corp mors bâ—â— bona mâ—â— mala contrary to me in this point Death in it owne nature and in the originall propertie of it is a part of the Curse and so Christ suffered it but in the Godly it is not properly a Curse nor the proper punishment or revenge of sinne which Christ once alone hath wholely sustayned and cleane freed vs of for ever This l Pag. 90. your selfe as well as m Pag. 43 I can tell saying The vengeance of the Lawe once executed on our Surety can no more in Gods iustice be executed on vs. And this our n Nowell techis Hâ—â— suffered â—â—der c. publike doctrine in England set forth by Masster Nowell confirmeth By Christes death it is come to passe that to the faith full Death is now not a Destruction but as it were a removing and changing of life and a very short and sure passage to heaven Who also in o His she Catechisâ—â— An. 157 another place expresseth it thus Death of the body which without Christ was the gate to Hell is nowe by Christ made to all that beleeve in him the gate and passage to Heaven So that death which before was a Punishment is now by Christ become a vantage Wherein you are notably contradicted who doe call p Pag. 15â— 216. Death in the godly the gate of Hell a strange and most vntrue translation Againe you are q Pag. 268 269. gainsaide in this place where you reprove me for affirming that Death to the godly and faithfull is a benefitt and advantage Then you say If I will reason what death is in it selfe I must resolve it to be a part of Gods Curse Which is no answer For our quaestion is not what death is in it selfe Who ever denied it to be in it selfe as you say a part of Gods Curse for sinne but my expresse wordes are Death to the godly is no Curse properly but a vantage Pag. 270. Where a you adde If Death were a gaine to the godly as I would have it by what meanes I pray you came it so to be If you know not why did you not marke better the publike Catechisme before rehearsed where all England is taught that it came by meanes of the death and resurrection of Christ You say Jf by the resurrection of Christ conquering Death and changing the nature of it then till Christ was rison Death was a punishment to the faithfull themselves I wonder what meaning there is in this argument As well you may say There were none saved til Christ was risen For salvation also and forgivenes of sinnes to all men came only by the death and resurrection of Iesus Christ So that thus till Christ came in the flesh none of the holy Patriarkes Abraham David and the rest obtayned eternall life And what became of them then But I am perswaded that Abraham David and all the Prophetes dying before Christ was exhibited in the flesh yet by their faith in Gods sure ordinance and promise they had and enioyed Christ truely incarnat slaine and risen againe and this to them was as effectuall then as it is now to vs since the actual performance of these things Whereby even as we by faith so they by the same faith differing onely in the circumstance of time were truely and throughly saved Likewise to the faithfull then by the efficacie of their holy faith Death was properly no punishment but a gaine even as to vs nowe it is Further b you except against me touching innocentes and Martyrs executions Pag. 175. who c I say are most blessed Treat 1. Pag. 38. You reply Their Martyrdomes are shamefull deaths and that is a kinde of Corporall Curse A kinde of Curse Who denyeth that We know all shame affliction to all men is a kinde of Curse
But neither shame nor Death to the holy Martyrs are d accounted by God nor by his servauntes as proper and true Curses Before pag. 9. 50. but the holy men are in trueth most glorious and blessed in them Againe the Saints and Martyrs can not bee properly Cursed and properly Blessed too in any measure Neither their Soules blessed vnles their bodyes be blessed also free from the true Curse although you seeme to denie this point Which strange and vncouth assertioÌ„ both heere and in many places mo you doe at least insinuat that is that the godly in their Soules are blessed but in their bodyes they still retaine Gods true proper Curse till the resurrection Which I leave to the consideration of the godly You say We must call things by those Names which God first allotted them That I deny If God since evidently have altered them and disposed of them otherwise But he hath so don in this case The afflictions and death which originally and naturally were punishments for sinne and are so still to the wicked the same to the godly as I have often said are since changed now are properly Chastisements of sinne and not Punishmentes nor Curses Only Christ hath suffered the whole proper punishment and true Curse or Vengeance of our sinnes and therefore on vs it is not it can not be laid againe in any part thereof You a Pag. 96. avouch some that denie Christ to have bene made a Curse or sinne But you must remember b Pag. 92. your owne place of Austin Maledictum est omne peccatum sive ipsum quod fit sive ipsum supplicium The Curse is all sinne which is twofold either that which we commit against Gods law or els the very Punishment of that sinne Nowe c Pag. 96. your testimonies do meane Christ was not made a Curse or sin the first way that is he was not in him selfe sinfull nor hated they deny not the second that he was made the proper punishment or Sacrifice for our sinne And thus though you lust not to see it yet my d Treâ—â— pag. 45. speach was sound and true If Christ dyed simply but as the Godly dye it might in no sort e Gal. 3. heere be called a Curse The reason is evident because the text heere doeth speak treat of the Curse of the Law against sinne such therefore was Christes Curse which he suâ—layned To conclude then his afflictions and death was neither Wages nor Chastisement nor Curse nor Consequent of any sinne in him Yet as God made him sinne for vs so he truely properly and in very deed laid the paine of his Curse vpon his body and Soule Which Curse of God vpon Christ as you f Pag 26 say truly was not in words but in deedes Wherefore my wordes g Pag. 2â— you openly pervert affirming that I say Death heere that is Christes death noted Galat. 3.13 â—ay in no sorte be called a Curse when I expresly even there and every where doe say the contrary Pag. 263. But a your greatest exception is that this Curse laid on Christ cannot be vnderstood of the whole Curse of God or of the Law Pag. 264. and therefore b you spare me not for c saying that Paul heere in his application out of Moses nameth a part of the iust Curse of the Law for sinne Treat 1. pag. 40. thereby meaning and inferring to his purpose the whole Where you must be so good as to vnderstand me by mine own words in other places Pag 290. For thus d you know e I limited my speach els where As touching the vehemency of paine Christ was as sharply touched as the very reprobats Treat 1. pag 81. And Christes sufferings were equall to the very Hellish torments in vehemency of paine and sharpnes Againe f This price equally in Justice must be kept so far as it is possible Pag. 26. And g Pag. 37. Because there was no impossibility no necessitie no reason but he might feele the full smart of our sinnes as there was that he should not feele the full continuance thereof and seeing Gods strict iustice requireth it to be so therefore it was so he suffered all the smart but not all the continuance of our punishment â— Also Pa. 23. Heeâ—e Pa. 13 Thus then plainly h I signified i those 3 Limitations which now are expressed that Christ suffered our whole Curse only so far as the possibilitie of thinges could admit wherein nothing was dispensed nor pardoned to him for there was no cause as I have often said Which doctrine how vnworthy it is of your strang contempt and outcryes against me I leave it to the godly Wise to consider Nowell Catechis Only marke if our k publike doctrine be not the same Vltima omnia pati voluir pro nobis qui vltima omnia commeriti sumus Diram execrationeÌ„ suscepit coÌ„tumelias etiaÌ„ omnes omnia probra atque supplicia c. But you will say thus we make it not the whole Curse of the Law Yes we cal it rightly the whole Curse for as much as Christ suffered it in his whole manhood See before pag 8. 1. The. 5.28 â— pa. 48. 52 even in l All the powers of his m Spirit Soule Body where that Curse in Deutero being a part was suffered only in the Body quickned by the Soul Also in other respectes this suffering of Christ may bee well called the whole Curse or PunishmeÌ„t of sin Pag. 11 12. â—nâ— 16.17 Pa. 27â— 280 as n before is declared After this o you thinke it strange that I say Christ suffered dyed iustly and was hanged on the tree by the iust sentence of the Law that so hee was by imputation of our state and condition vnto him sinfull 〈◊〉 before 〈◊〉 51.11 defiled hatefull and accursed All the which I avouch because he vndertooke by Gods ordinance as our Surety to receave our whole condemnation vpon himselfe so far as his owne nature and condicion could possibly admit Christ suffeâ— iustly to the ende that hee might wholly acquit vs. In regard whereof I aske Is it wrong for the Law to lay the penalty on the surety when the debtour can not discharge it Against this my assertion you say a Pag. 27â— By no sentence of the Law he hanged on a tree And a reason you give b Pag. 273 because to be hanged on a tree was no necessary part of the generall Curse of God vpon all sinners I answer to Dy for sinne was a necessary part of the generall Curse vpon all sinners What say you then to his Death Did he dy iustly Sure if Christ dyed by the rule of Gods iustice then he dyed iustly If he dyed not by Gods iustice then Wo and thrice Wo to vs. For it cannot be but Gods Iustice * Luc. 16.1 Deut. 10.1 Rom. 8.32 See before pag. 66. must
experience of them This same also sundry of the Fathers avouch with vs most fully and even those which your selfe brings for a your selfe Pag. 25. Cyrills wordes before touched are most large Cyrill Theâ—â—ur 10.3 Omnia Christus perpessus est vt nos ab omnibus liberaret Christ throughly suffered all such passions which men doe suffer that he might deliver vs from all Humane â—ature All the passions of †fleshe were stirred in Christ yet without sinne and so that vnles he had dyed we had not bene delivered from death vnles he had feared and sorrowed we had not ben quitt from feare and sorrowe Heere he saith all our passions were stirred in Christes humane nature even so farre as we are cured and so farre as might bee without sinne in him Then I hope by Cyrills iudgement the sense of the true curse and proper wrath of God for sinne was in Christes Soule so faire as it might be painfull and not sinfull seeing Men are subiect to this suffering as the most sharpest among others Lastly by Cyrill here we see that vnles Christ had felt the same suffrings which we feele and are cured of we had not bene delivered of them This also I am sure fitteth not your opinion That one drop of Christes bloud was sufficient for our whole redemption Which was one of your principles in your preaching but in your book you skip it cleane I know not how â—ag 25. 26. Next we may see that c your place of d Ambrosâ— is also fully to the same effect Luc. de â—â—tic dol â—â— A litle after his e former words he saith The ioy of the eternall Godhead being parted away from him Christ was affected with the redioâ—snes of my infirmity â—â—fore pa. 48 He tooke vpon him my sorrow that he might give mee his ioy and he abased himselfe to the sorrow of death in our manner that by the same meanes in him he might bring vs to life He ought therfore to take sorrow that he might overcome sorrow and not exempt himselfe from it that we might learne in Christ to ouercom the sorrow of death approching Wherefore Christ exempted himselfe from nothing in his Passion that we haue experience of as touching Paines and sorrowes And by the same sufferings in him selfe for vs he healeth vs wherevnto we are subiect by reason of sinne So that thus in his agonie hee wrought with a deepe effect that because in his flesh hee killed our sinnes he might also with the sorrow of his Soul extinguish the sorrow of our Soules To this very purpose also a Pag. 47 4â— Naâ—â—anz Fulgent Barnard Tertull. Ierom. many others before rehearsed do affirme most fully Neither is this taking of their sentences any whit to abuse the Fathers which you b Pag. 86. are afraid of You greatly abuse them which take them otherwise namely as if they meant that by the flesh and bloudshed of Christ meerely alone without the merit of his Soules and Mindes proper suffering our whole Ransom were paid As for our comparing the paines of Christs suffering with the paines even of the Reprobats in this life I see not that you nor any man living can finde fault therewith onely set aside their sinfull suffering which alwayes I testifie that Christ was most free from Yea I doubt not but we may compare Christes sufferings in his Agonies touching vehemency of paines even with those of the Damned in hell What the oâ— is betweenâ— Christes Suâ—fering 〈◊〉 Damned Only I conceave betweene Christs and theirs this odds 1 They suffer sinfully 2 Perpetually 3 Locally in Hell All which being excepted otherwise Christ suffered altogither as bitterly as sharpely yea I may say in nature the very same as the Damned doe which therefore may well be called the paines of Hell although yet Hell indeed doeth differ in some great and waighty circumstances as is aforesaid If you say the extreamest paines of punishment caÌ„not be where sinne is not That is true neither in deed can the least paines be where there is no sinne and that no more in the Body then in the Soule though this please not you Marke what I say The extreamest paines of al may as possibly be inflicted where no sinne is as the very least that as well in the Spirit as in the Body But in trueth neither the one nor the other is possible Neither the greatest nor the least paines of Gods proper vengeance for sinne can be inflicted or suffered at all in Soule or in Body but only where sinne is That is to say either imputed or inhaerent Ordinarily the Reprobat are thus punished where sinne is inhaerent Extraordinarily and singularly by Gods owne speciall ordinance Christ was even thus punished yet where sin was but imputed And thus therefore Christes Soule for meere paine might suffer the extreamest spiritual punishments altogeather as well as his body might suffer any at all without inhaerent sinne But you graunt his body suffered truely punishments for sinne Therefore his soule might suffer also even those of the extreamest degree Your “ See beâ—â—â— pag. 14. selfe also granteth that Christ both might and did suffer the extreamest paines that might bee without his owne sinne But it was possible for him to conceave and feele in his a minde farre greater sorrowes and paines for our sinne from Gods wrath â—at ◠〈◊〉 26. then hee could feele meerely in his body outwardly And the greatest was no more sinne then the least though both were properly for sin Therefore by your own grant Christ might and did feele and indure the greatest sorrowes of the minde and soule as well as the lesser in the body being all the very effectes of the wrath of God against sinne â—ag 102. b You bring a reason against this that God spiritually punisheth no man but for his own vncleannes which is a thing meerely vntrue For though no other man was ever punished without his owne vncleannes neither spiritually nor corporally yet Christ our Saviour was who in this case was not in the ordinarie state of men But I pray shewe me this mysterie how it is that God caÌ„not punish Spiritually where there is no inhaerent sinne but can and may Corporally where there is none All the rest of your assertions c heere are altogeather of this sute â—a 101 102 â—03 105. â—66 94. By this one reason I weakened all yours but you could passe that by To this efâ—â—ct Treat 1 â—ag 41 43. answering vnto it not a word Viz d If Christes body hanging on the Crosse and held by Death in the grave was punished by God where yet he found no sinne and which he still intierly loved and was never separated froÌ„ then so hee might did punish properly his Soule also yet never divide his Godhead nor his love from it But thus he did to his body therefore even so hee might doe and did to his
in respect of his infinit paines he might Mar. 14.35 c This hower can not be referred to his Holy and Righteous affections which were at all howers and seasons in him without measure Holy yet now at his death did not so expresly break out shew theÌ„selves Nor as his â—aines did â—â—peare as they did at divers times before Therefore this Hower can not be these his Holy affections his Paines afflictions they d may be and must bee â—oh 12.27 â—â—mpar with 〈◊〉 33. Neither thus standeth it with his piety to wish that his strong and vehement affections of Holynes should passe from him or bee weakened in him For my part I can see no sense nor sap in these assertions Even so likewise in that â—ag 21. where you ascribe to this his c deepe sorrow of zeale for mens sinnes his sweating bloud in his agonie aboue nature after a strange and marvelous maner I dare say you deliver strange mervayles in Divinity The Fift Cause f you say â—ag 21. might be the Cup of Gods wrath tempered made ready for the sinnes of men which you interpret to be g Eternall Malediction Pag. 22. Touching which you say Christ knowing what our sinnes deserved might intentively pray to have that Cup passe froÌ„ him which was prepared for vs. For vs whom meane you The Elect or the Reprobat What malediction The whole absolut Paines thereof only or the Eternity of the continuance thereof also For so the Reprobats do suffer it If you meane the Elect As you afâ—â—me most â—â—angely pa. â—â—2 133. 144 â—93 294. Christ knew that he must not only h see contemplat but feele suffer all the whole Paines of that Punishment which our sinnes deserved and this was prepared for himselfe our Ransom-payer and not for vs. Wherefore the truth is he could not by any meanes pray against that nor decline that onely vnles he were for the time in some astonishment perturbation of his senses which by the infinitnes of that Paine he might well bee in yea he could not but be in his Humane weake nature and yet still remayning vtterly sinlesse as is afore shewed to have happened in Moses and Paul in a far lesse perturbation then this was in Christ Now this is the very point of our Defense affirme this and you affirme with vs all that we hold professe Otherwise if you meane that Christ prayed intentively to have the whole and intire Cup of eternall Malediction and death passe from him which both the Elect deserve and the Reprobats sustaine that as it is passing strange doctrine so it is also simply impossible For he could not intentively pray against that not feare that which hee most perfitly knew concerned him not at all and by no meanes could ever possibly come neere him But indeed all this is nothing els in effect then your 1 Cause His submission to Gods maiesty sitting in iudgment Wherefore you might have lessened your number and so your answer to this might have ben thesame which is made to your formost But heere furthermore you knit in with this a As youâ— kon theâ— geatheâ— 27. 4 other severall causes of Christs Agony 1. His taking of our infirmities in his flesh to cure them 2. His breaking the knot betwixt bodily death and Hell which none but hee was able to do 3. Gods anger which might be executed on his body but was mitigated by him 4. The desire he had to continue the seeling inioying of Gods presense with his body The of these maketh in my minde much for vs. For vnderstanding that Christ tooke all the infirmities and passions wherevnto mens nature is subiect to the ende that hee might cure all and every kinde of them in vs then it followeth that he wanted not the proper immediat sufferings of paines inflicted by Gods own haÌ„d in his Soule For these are our Soules subiect vnto and capeable of yea and tormeÌ„ted with finally we are by this apt and proportionable medicine of Christ throughly cured of theÌ„ And this is the very same matter which our 4 Argument * Pag 8â— 87. before concluded that Christe had experince of thesame infirmities passions generally whatsoever wherof he hath cured vs. And this your owne Authours here doe fully affirme Cyrill Ambrose and others as a Pag. 88 before we have observed It is then most vnreasonable which heere c you doe if you doe as you seeme to vnderstand them of meere Bodily death â—a 25 26 27 of the infirmities meerly of his Flesh Before pag â—1 Wherein then you deny our d Assumption also are againe Contrarie to your selfe and to f your owne Authours Cyrill nameth flesh heere Pag. 10. 〈◊〉 Ieâ—om Pde meaning not Christes Deitie but his whole Humane nature as the Scripture doeth in a multitude of places and so not his Body onely Thus then it is that he saith as you obserue Pag. 25. that g Christ as a man abhorred and feared death not the bodily death only but as it was conioyned with the sorrowes of the 2. death He would not he could not so feare and be afrighted yea and pitiously astonished with such sorrowe oppressing him as to sweat droppes of bloud only for feare of his bodily death neyther would he pray at all much lesse so vehemently and so oftenty mes as he did against that which he perfectly knew was Gods will and his own most willing purpose to vndergoe Or els Cyrill meaneth no more but that he naturally misliked shunned eveÌ„ as all flesh doth all bodily paine death This we alwayes yeeld and it maketh nothing against vs. For nevertheles he coÌ„stantly imbraced suffered with ioy whatsoever bodily grief he knew did come vnto him by his owne most free wil and by the holy ordinance of God yea he could would beare it with ioy far beyond all the ioy and constancie of h men in their sufferings Who yet â—rink not at 〈◊〉 neither for â—â—dily paines â—â—r for Reliâ—â—ous fear of â—â—ll Only he might faile of the outward appearance and vse of this coÌ„stancie and ioyfull patience as now he did without taint of sinne if his Humane nature were overwhelmed with other infinit paynes and his minde and senses disturbed with more horrour then naturally it could beare Therfore I conclude he thus feared not his meere bodily death but it was the Paines of the 2. death which he felt and so feared But you say i The sorrow and feare of death which it pleased our Saviour to feele in our nature â—ag 26. came not for want of strength but of purpose to quench and abolish those affections in vs. I say it came from both as your selfe also doe avouch cleane contrarily in an other place k To dy even in Christ was infirmitie â—ag 161. though voluntary And generally in another place â—ag 289. l Naturall infirmitie was coÌ„mon
â—â—bâ— 5.7 Againe if you meane that all this was voluntary in him and not felt indeede according to the outwarde semblance and as men beholding him would iudgâ— Luc. 22.43 then belike you make him to have counterfayted Which thought God for bid should ever come into any Christians heart For no cause you say f I iest and iybe with the Apostles wordes Pag. 302. but I feare this is to iest and iybe in deed with the most dreadfull and bitter sorrowes of our Saviour in working for vs our Salvation And heere why say you not aswell that his Death and bloudshed on the Crosse shewed in him no paines nor infirmitie but only that voluntarily he made him selfe there the true Priest and pe formed the prefigured bloudy and deadly Sacrifice for the sins of the world As good reason altogeather you have to say so as to affirme it of his Agonie â—ag 29. As for the Scriptures which g you cite they prove in deed that Christ nowe executed his office of Priesthoode but will you divide exempt his Death on the Crosse froÌ„ his Priesthood Or his â—ines and fit mity froÌ„ ther The sanctifying of him self doeth it not as well intend and comprehende that Sacrifice on the Crosse as that of his Prayers in the Garden To thinke otherwife is without all shewe of trueth or reason yet I see not why you should cite these textes vnles you meant so neither can I see what els you meane where you conclude saying Christs Agonie being alleaged by the Apostle to demonstrat Christs Priesthood must not rise froÌ„ the terror of his own death â—ag 27. And yet h a little before you openly doe confesse and grant that his Agonie did rise from the feare of his death and that Christ had farre greater cause then any of his members to feare it Also it is contrary to your citing of Cyrill pag. 25. And heere why should i Hilary deny that Christes bloudy sweat came of infirmitie â—ag 28. Or k Austin that his feare and perturbatioÌ„ was of infirmitie â—ag 25. Surely there is no cause For though it be against the coÌ„mon course of our Nature for any paines or feare to sweat bloud yet the Divine power with and through paines and feares might wring out of his body that trickling bloudy sweat As it is plaine that it did by the wordes next before in the text a Luk. 2 44. An Angell came to give him some comfort that is least hee should have bene overwhelmed quite in his sorrow and discomfort but still he was in his Agonie and swet like droppes of bloud trickling to the ground and presently saieth My Soule is full of sorrowes even to death and thrice he prayed that this Cup and this Hower might passe from him It cannot be therefore but that by Sorrowes and Paines this sweat came though also Gods power caused it by laying vpon his Soule and body invisible supernaturall vnspeakeable sorrowes and horrors and by making his fleshe visibly to expresse in some sort this spirituall and extraordinary torment of paine and feare which he suffered And in deed where they say 1 Not Infirâ—â—ty but Poâ—â—â— did this Nec infirmitas quod potestas gessit that proveth the cleane coÌ„trary For Jdeo infirmitas quia potestas gessit 2 Therforâ— there waâ— firmity â—â—cause thâ—â—â— was Powâ—â— For the working of his Power in him argueth the suffering of his Infirmitie The power of God is peâ—fited in infirmÃtie And because it was aboue the course of nature therefore nature was herein oppressed not exempted from paines Thus these speak fully for vs and against you that heere appeared not Christes infirmity only in suffering but his Divine power also in punishing And this I iudge in deed to bee their very meaning But those other mysticall and figuratiue sayings of Austin Pag 28. â— Bede Bernard howe shall we admit them without better warrant That Christes bloudshead was to signifie that Martyrs should shead their bloud what reason have we so to thinke Or that his bloud head should signifie the purging of his Disciples hearts froÌ„ sinne yea or of all his Church in the whole world It did not signifie this but it did it in deed Lastly if it had thâ—se significations in it yet withall his Agonie might rise from his very Paines Feare comming from the present sense of Gods iustice and wrath nowe revealâ—d and working vpon him Hitherto we have made it manifest that in trueth you have nothing in all these wordes against our doctrine that Paines and sorrowes were the true and proper cause of Christes dreadfull Agonie nor to prove that his meere bodily paines or death was the whole Cause Now we are to shew the like in his most we full Complaint on the Crosse where he saith My God my God Math 27. why hast thou forsaken me You will aske me heere what kinde of Forsaking may this be I shewed you plainly * Treat 1 â— 6â— 65 6â— before if you had regardâ—d it Namely that Christ being also now yea specially in the feeling of infinit Paines inflicted on him sundry wayes â—â—w Christ on 〈◊〉 Crosse was â—â—â—saken of â—â—â—d See also â—â—â—g 112.113 and that directly froÌ„ Gods proper Wrath for our sinnes he felt his whole Humane nature for the time left all comfortles and alone without any ioyous assistance of his Deitie I say not that he wanted now all assistanc of his Deitie for it surely would then have quite overwhelmed him with this intollerable burdeÌ„ But his Godhead as it were withdrawing and hiding it selfe from him for that season of his Passion gave him no sense nor feeling of ease comfort or ioy but all the sense of sorrowes and paines as well in spirit as in soule and body that might bee all the sense of his ioy and comfort for the while being cleane gone and wholy swallowed vp in that huge bottomles gulfe of sorrowes and paynes issuing vpon him out from the fierce Wrath of God Howbeit yet even nowe he wanted not sufficient assistance of the Deitie to sustayne him in life heerein as I said Phil. 2.7 Rom. 8.32 â—eut 10 17. â—â—c 16.17 This was that extreeme humiliation and exinanition of nature wherein †God spared not his Sonne and wherein also Christ spared not him selfe For hee vndertooke all this most willingly and yet being in it naturally grieved and sorrowed for it at some moments being astonished with it suddenly and naturally desired ease and release from it This forsaking or dereliction beseemeth the time place person and case of Christ our Ransom-payer and Purchaser of salvation with the price of his owne most direfull paines Pag. 24. c â—â—â—r 6. Expoâ—â—â—ions of â—hristes CoÌ„â—â—aint are all â—â—â—isse Not any other farre fet or hardly applyed or strangely devised by the braynes of men As in trueth all those other senses heereof are which you rather imbrace
rather not remembring Where you would h Pag. 296. wring out a contrariety in my wordes as if I had said That Christ being in the depth of his astonishment did then perfitly know that the dominion of death should not hold him you doe mee wrong I say not so In that place I argue from your suppositioÌ„ that if Christ were now not astonished but in his perfit memory and full considering of such thinges as you seeme to affirme but I deny which otherwise hee knew well then it could not be the Dominion of death that hee thus feared sith in his firme estate he knew perfitly that it should not prevaile over him To conclude this matter thus we may see how without colour of reason i Pag. 297. you wrest a plaine text which otherwise taken as it lyeth maketh strongly against you They are our Saviours Christs owne words k Ioh. 12. Now is my soule troubled what shall I say Father save me from this hower but therfore came J vnto this hower You say these words do import a Deliberation of 2. partes But you speak against all reason considering the nature and frame of the very words A Deliberation must needes bee set interrogatively in both clauses thus What shall I say Father save me from this hower Now the text is not so it pretendeth a plaine resolution or at least a great inclining toward resolution thus Father save me froÌ„ this hower It can not be a Deliberation Chrysostom and Epiphanius do descant about it trying how the text may beare such a meaning but it cannot stand being so evidently against the course of the text Chrysost â—â—b Lacet turbatio dâ—â—eâ—e 〈◊〉 servaâ—â—â—â— contrariâ—â—â— tamen â—â—â—o You say S. Iohn beere speaketh of another time and place What then Yet he may speake of the same matter namely of his Passion or of a Foretast thereof Which indeed the text it selfe m sheweth that he did speake of Wherefore neither can we deny â—oh 12.31 â— 33 all titers heerâ—pon but this place of Scripture even as the other about his Praying in the Garden doth surely confirme that his Passion was more then meere bodily which did so miraculously terrifie him It could be no lesse then the paines of the infinit wrath of God vpon his Soule Hence also I reasoned effectually n before Treat 1. pa. 1. 63. but no where you answer it If Christs such sufferinges in his Soule were ordayned of God for him then most certainly indeede he did suffer the same Nowe we see such sufferings were ordained for him seeing he saith but therefore came I vnto this hower Therefore most certainly indeed hee did suffer them at one time or other Yet further you except Pa. 22 23. â—oo c where you avouch that this was a Feare of Eternall death and Euerlasting damnation which caused in Christ this Agonie and from his feare he was deliuered Ergo hee suffered not that which he feared First I graunt indeed this was the 2. Death the death of the soule or Hell tormentes which Christ heere b feared neither can this by any meanes be denied as anon we shall see Howbeit to say as you do that it was Eternall death and Euerlasting malediction which heere Christ thus woefully distresfully feared is the strangest speach in Divinitie that ever I heard See you can not helpe youe selfe in making Christes feare of this Death to be onely a c religious feare Pag. 23. d a feare for others These imaginations I haue removed e before Pag 304. Every Reader will easily see in his owne iudgemeÌ„t that these affections so vehement were not likely at this season Pag 93 94. c. nor likely in him at all much lesse likely to be Causes of such Effectes Againe these are not Feare properly they ought rather to bee called as they are a religious Care Commiseraetion and pitie Which differ greatly from the nature of Feare properly taken such as we ought to coÌ„ceave in this place Pag. 305. You thinke the f nature of eulabia will not admit any proper Feare namely no perplexed Feare as I take it heere to signifie but a carefull diligent regard to beware and decline that which we mislike or doubt What say you Did Christ doubt Eternall Damnation and therefore Feared it you speak so darklie that I know not how to take you But it may be you meane hee him selfe misliked it only and was sorry for others who ran headlong into it But all this still is nothing els save Piety in him properlie yea and so you say this cometh nearest to the signification of the Greek word I graunt it doeth touching Eulabia but in Mark the a lâ—kthamâ— berâ—thaâ— word doth import properly Feare and that in extreamitie Againe touching Eulabia my reason that heere it signifieth Feare properly yea a perplexed feare and not not only a religious devotion as you say is grouÌ„ded not so much on the nature of the word as on the Circumstances and the other words of this Text * Heb. 5.7 Christ in the dayes of his flesh offered vp prayers and supplications with strong crying and teares vnto him that was able to save him from Death and was heard in that which he feared Heere these other words doe shewe that this Feare was more then a carefull regard to beware that which he misliked it was no lesse in deed then a perplexed and troubled feare wofully dreading that which he was to suffer Which also the strange and wonderfull signes thereof in the Garden do more then coÌ„firme as I haue shewed b Pag. 11â— 116. 127 often Thus my meaning is that the nature of eulabia admitting the sense som time of Feare properly admitteth heere this sense yea of necessitie it must admit it for the reason noted aboue Howbeit I grant the Apostle may intend this also by the nature of this worde that Christ notwitstanding all this dreadfull feare yet being meerely naturall in him it declined not a jot from Piety nor from a most reverend regard of obedience to God which still in all this his perplexitie he kept firme and safe This he may withall I grant insinuat yet the other proper feare grievous dread must needs be admitted To like effect this worde signifieth in that place of the c Act. 23. Actes as the CircuÌ„stances there also will coÌ„firme Now then this being in Christ a proper and most vehement feare where you argue Christ was delivered from his feare of Hell torments or the Death of the Soule Ergo he suffered them not I deny your sequele This proveth directly the contrary He feared the Death of the Soule specially he thus feared it Ergo hee did suffer it For Feare being of that which is to come as d Pag. 30â— you well observe Ergo seeing Christ feared yea in such maner the Death of the Soule it surely came vnto him namely
either now or before he dyed in the flesh or both now then also For he might well suffer it eveÌ„ now and yet feare it more ensuing Yea such a maner measure of Feare as this manifestly was could not be but a very Suffering of these spirituall sorrowes Which also that sheweth where hee saith My Soule is full of actuall sorrowes even vnto death c. Neither is there in this any a doubt full word Pag. 304. which is your maner of writing Pag. 296. nor b device vnfit for Divinity but your CoÌ„parisons of c fearing Captivitie Pag. 301. loosing a purse c. are very vnfit to be matched with this feare in Christ Pag. 302. You thinke this was but a d iest if God be said to have heard Christ and deliuered him from that he feared and yet to let him suffer it Forsooth no iest for he doubtles suffered it as before we haue seene Nowe nevertheles GOD might well heare him 2. wayes 1. by sufficient sustayning him in it 2. by delivering him out of it in due time In one place you seeme to observe a point both strange and very contrary to your selfe Pa. 118. 119 in saying e Feare is more intollerable in Christ theÌ„ doubting Is feare so intollerable a thing for him when as you haue so often and so earnestly affirmed that he feared Pa. 22. 124. and for f feare became thus astonished Pag. 303. Where * you seeke a weake advantage in that I said eisakoustheis may seeme to shew that Christ was heard being in that which he was saved from you see I challenge no certaine but a seeming reason from that worde But your selfe maketh a stranger coÌ„clusion Ergo the Active referred to God importeth that God being in the same Paines did heare him Lastly you say g Indeed but in the Garden Christ never prayed with strong cryes teares to be saved froÌ„ Death Pag. 22 that we read in the Scriptures I hope neither doe you read expreslie in the Scriptures at all that thus he prayed in the Garden You may soundly gather it from the Scriptures I graunt Ioh. 12.27 and so you may that his praying h before was of the self same nature and maner also after in that most dolefull complaint on the Crosse when he cryed My God my God why hast thou forsaken me Where the very like request is plainlie implyed as he made in the Garden when he saide Let this Cup passe from Ieb 5.7 So that the i Apostle in all reason may bee vnderstoode to have respect to all these tymes and wofull cryes of our Saviour Christ Pag. 30. And thus it is without all reason that you say k his Agonie ended in the Garden Pa. 115. 116 and that on the Crosse hee had l alwayes persistance in ioy without obscuration or intermission Likewise also that otherwise his astonishment must a Pag. â—â— continue 18. howers from his entering into the Garden after supper to the ending of his life the next day at 3. of the clocke after noone Howe vaine is this consequence how false are these sayings and contrary to Scripture in all the circumstances But you say b Pa. 30. the cause coÌ„tinuing the effect could not cease The Cause was Gods leaving his weake nature in these sorrowes at somtimes more at sometimes lesse also he is to be thought to reveale and inflict the very sorrowes not alwayes in one tenor but sometime more sometime lesse finally his Manhood apprehended these arrowes of Gods wrath sometime more suddainly then at other times These were the true causes of his Astonishment but these continued not 18. howers togeather therefore the effect was not to coÌ„tinue still in that maner on him Then you c Pag. 29 say in the vttering of these wordes the Cup did passe from him by my owne confession I coÌ„fesse it not But I confesse his extreame astonishment did even quickly passe from him yet the sense and tast of that Cup might continue longer in such a maner and measure as he was better inabled by his Deitie to sustaine it Now what ill is there in these conceites I pray you What folly is there in them Against vs heerein you doe nothing els almoste in your large Treatise Iniuriouâ— sâ—eacheâ— but heape vp many and most false imputarions That we thinke Christ was in d Pag. â—â—â— 116. 1â—â— doubt and feare of Gods favour e Pag. 1â—â— destitute of faith hope love ioy forsaken of Gods favour grace Spirit that f Pag. â—â—â— he continued 18. howres togeather amazed as it were in a trance that he g Pag. â—â—â— vehemently and often strugled and strived in his prayers against the knowen will of God sought by all meanes to decline the worke for which he came into the world His flesh feared death though his Spirit submitted it self to the will of his heavenly Father h Pag. â—â— We put Christ besides him selfe when it pleaseth vs that he knew not what he prayed nor prayed in faith Your L. if you had reasons but any thing probable wanteth not outward meanes enough to commend your cause you neede not to devise against vs such grosse and base vntruths But it bewrayeth how desperat your matter is which can not come foorth nor make any shew to the world without such proppes to leane on Besides that which heere in severall places wee haue declared to the coÌ„trary in our i Pag. 5â— 70. 71. former Treatise we shewed our minde though briefly yet sufficientlie against these iniurious speaches How you seeme to avouch that Christ was by God forsaken in a Body 〈◊〉 114.116 â—â—2 103 â—â—ore 〈◊〉 but not in b Soule let them declare that can For my part I know not your secret therein I am sure no man can in trueth maintaine it As for c Ambrosâ— 114. â—â—â—e pag. 113. 128. 1â—0 〈◊〉 1. of yeâ—â—â—ion See â—â—â—re pag. you wrest him as you did Hilary c d before After this you are bold and aske if e any dare doubt of your doctrine Yea surely I dare not but doubt of it Also we have seene that the publike f authorised doctrine in England dareth to doubt of it Which maketh Christes putting him selfe betweene Gods Wrath and our sinnes a parte divers from his bodily death on the Crosse â—â—â—ore pag. â— yet the extreamest part of his Passion See also other g authorised testimonies heereof But why may not any dare doubt of your doctrine Pet. 2. Because the Scripture saith h Christ suffered for vs. leaving vs an example that we should followe his steppes c. And this is very true also the godly doe followe his steppes heerein many times as I i shewed you before â—at 1. pa. heere 120.129 Some are conformable in some measure with Christe even in these his sufferings Then k you say we ought to be glad and reioyce thereof I answer we ought to
Deo The Death of the Soule is Gods Forsaking of it â—â—fore pag. â— 113. â— 108. 113 â— 134. But the Scripture saith God did leave him or forsake him for a season yea the Fathers also c agree fully therevnto the maner how d I have shewed before Therefore by Austins definition largly and rightly taken Christ may be said in some sense to haue dyed in Soule Howbeit though the Fathers doe graunt the thing in effect as I have shewed yet I acknowledge they doe deny this phrase generally and so doeth Austin in this place But thereabout we never made question this is no parte of our matter It may bee even for the same cause they shunned it for which we also doe vse it very rarely and warily as before I observed Pag 136. And let this be the Answere touching all your Fathers and Councells which you bring aboundantlie heere and there about this point of the Soules death Though peradventure some of them may seeme to insinuat even this very phrase touching Christ sometyme as in some I touched before Where you say â—â—g 317. †Aske the simplest child that is Catechized in my charge if I have any what death Christ dyed for vs and hee will answer me out of his Creed Christ was Crucified Dead Buried It is true But our authorized Catechisme published by M. Nowel and the Homily i sheweth the meaning heereof to be 〈◊〉 before 〈◊〉 67 117.â— that Christ suffered far more sharply theÌ„ meere bodily Death even the infinit paines of Gods wrath in his soul which I pointed you vnto k before but you fairly leape it over â—â—eat 1. pa. â— as also the Archb. speciall allowance with others of M. Now. Catechisme as being fully grounded on the word of God contayning the very doctrine of the Church of England Now to this effect the youths in my charge being asked would have answered surely For indeed such a charge in London I had I thank God wherin I hope I was faithfull according to my power might have coÌ„tinued had not your il seasoned teaching so contrary to the established doctrine in Englande burst foorth a You say â—ag 325. â—â—a 53.12 â—r hee powâ—â—◠〈◊〉 I should have don well to have laid that downe for a shew which is written in Esay b He c laid downe his Soule vnto death verily if I had it would have made som shew Considering that d Pa. â—6 you earnestly affirme that this word signifieth Soule or Spirit in a proper sense Also how resolute you are forbidding to e Pag. 1â— divert from the native proper significations of words but when the letter impugneth the groundes of Christian faith and charity This considered surely that in Esay maketh some shew indeede that Christ submitted and humbled and afflicted even his Soule to Death The rather if we note that which followeth He was counted with the sinners and bare the sinne of many That is he was punished by God as the sinners are f See besâ—â— pag. 76. punished and was not by the Iewes onely counted among Theeves But chiefly considering withall that also before g Isa 53. â— He made his soule a sinne offering Heere you must remember †Your pa. â— we shall leave nothing sound sure in Gods word if we may avoid all thinges by figures that please not our humours Therefore you must needes grant that Gods worde heere maketh Christs Soule to be †sacrificed for our sinne And we desire no other death of the Soule We deny not but this phrase AnimaÌ„ pâ—nere is to lay downe the life and in divers places signifieth no more then simply to Dy both concerning Christ and other men as you observe pag. 70. Yet this is no necessary reason that heere in J say the Soule should be taken figuratively for the Life onely the rather seeing heere the text precisely setteth down the great perfit worke of our RedemptioÌ„ And to take it as we do literally impugneth no ground at all of faith or Charity The like peradventure may bee affirmed also of that in Mathew h Mar 2â—â— The sonne of man came not to be served but to serve and to give his soule a ransom for many although the translatours commonly turne it his life But I wil not strive about these phrases Aust hath not a word against vs in that great place which i Pag. 32â— you cite his whole argumeÌ„t there being to another purpose The Iewes slew only the flesh of Christ and yet it is true that they slew Christ Who doubteth this Also where you thinke those words to be so k Pag. 327â— plaine and expresse as may be spoken so effectuall as Pauls heart could invent or his toung vtter that Christ reconciled vs to God in the body of his flesh through death we have answered you †Pag. 45. â— before As for al your other discourse heere against me it is as every where almost nothing but revilings and reproches and bitter skoffes Yet you say l Pag 108. â— you have not learned nor vsed to give reviling speaches Have you not learned it Is it then naturall vnto you Nay you meane m Pag. 264â— these are Fatherly Warnings and admonitions If your Fatherly admonitions are such what are your Lordly rebukes If these bee your Bishoply blessinges what are your Cursings But I am to blame heerein standeth not the tryall of our quaestion As for all thâ—se hogepots as n 〈◊〉 3â—8 you call them which you make of my wordes they are nothing but your owne either wilfull writhings or vncharitable surmises as by every particular in then places may be seene Finally that is not true where you say o 〈◊〉 330. Flesh doth often signifie the soule in vs. It signifieth often the whole Manhood togither in vs and so it may and doth in Christ aswell Also it signifieth in vs many times our whole and intire corrupt nature both in body and soule so it never signifieth in Christ And heere I desire the reader to change a word or two in my former Treatise Note â—reat 1. pa. â—6 lin 2. â—â—d lin 7. â— Cor. 7.1 for p allwayes to set vsually and for q a man to set Christ. Because since I find that Flesh and Spirit togeather applyed vnto men doe r once signifie meerely the Body and Soule which then I thought every where did signifie in vs our corrupt and regenerat man Which oversight the Bishop spyeth not but in this place coÌ„firmeth indeed Finally to make an ende with your Fathers and Councels it is strang that you thus vainly boast of them 〈◊〉 135.327 saying they are a all wholy for you for this 1400. yeares space I have shewed before that your large claime proveth a very short gaine For in substance and full effect they are evideÌ„tly and generally against you and for vs. As for their denying that Christ Dyed in his Soule I
b have answered to that before â—ag 135. â—6 142. Further where you bring them in many places saying by his bloud only he redeemed vs and he suffered only in his Body Fathers 〈◊〉 handled they are abused by you wonderfully Not in their words but in their meaning For they striving against Arians and such other Haeretikes who would have Christs Deity to take part in his sufferings for our redemption â—ee before 〈◊〉 111.113 â—4 c. so consequently would prove it inferior to the Father the godly Ancient Writers do heerevpon say he suffered satisfyed for vs only in his body in his flesh c not excluding the proper immediat sufferinges of his Spirit nor any passible part of his Manhood but onely his Godhead against those Haeretikes shewing thus also that no other Creatuâ—e besides him or with him satisfyed any way for vs altogeather after the Apostles like phrase in many places Let the Authors themselves be viewed if you thinke I affirme of them falsly Tertullian and Cyrill will give a tast heereof for all the rest Tertullians c Pag. 3 â— wordes d Contr. â— id est carnem thas is to say Christs flesh are expresly opposed to his Deity not to his Soul so that evidently he meaneth thereby his whole and intire passible Manhood If hee had meant to exclude any parte or faculty of his Soule from suffering as he doth his Godhead he had confirmed that Haeresy against which he striveth as f before I noted e Pag. 1â— Also it seemes he yeeldeth the name of Death to this suffering of Christes whole Manhood in saying Quod vnctum est mortuum ostendit that Dyed which receaved the Annoynting For I hope his spirit was Annointed with the Holy Ghost aswell as his Flesh And he saith thus as indefinitly so also by way of oppositioÌ„ to his Deity as I said therefore he meaneth the whole Manhood dyed Howbeit in what sort this might be I shewed * pag. 113â— 135. 136â— before My false traÌ„slating of him which you note is not worth the noting But you doe worse in false placing those his last rehearsed words for advantage in Tertull. they are vsed more generally in their owne place coming long before those words after which you set them As for that Denique posuit spirituÌ„ c. it sheweth that Christs bodily death also but not only came by reason of Gods forsaking and separating from him For before we saw how Tertull. expresly attributeth Gods DerelectioÌ„ both to his * Haec vâ—â—â— animae poris soule body on the Crosse though you grudg thereat Thus I say he excepteth only his Godhead from Dereliction and Suffering c. Cyrill also even in that book which you cite for you sheweth that he excludeth but Christs Deity though he mention only his suffering in Flesh †Ad Reg lib. 1. Carne passum dicit docens patiendi ineffabilem naturam a passionibus alienam Deus igitur Christus Divinè quidem impassibilis passibilis secundum carnem He excludeth only the Deity from suffering when he saith hee suffered in his Flesh In a word so do all the rest as h Pag. 1â— before is partly noted Against Nestorius i Pag. 33â— they affirme the vnion of Christes Natures with preserving the properties of each They therefore hold not his only bodily sufferings Is this then your great boast of all the Fathers and Councells Nay are they well vsed at your hands to be thus drawn cleane from their purpose to an opinion which they never thought of Is this good dealing towards Gods people to tell them that the Fathers generally teach the only bodily sufferings of Christ and deny our Assertion of his Soules peculiar suffering â—â—efore 47.48.66.71.88.112 which * they iustifie confirme indeed Yea this 〈◊〉 the profit that comes by ordinary slanting with Fathers which vse many do frequent in these dayes Think they if the scriptures alone suffice not for all thinges in Religion that the Fathers will suffice Or if the Fathers make a sense vpon some text that therefore this must be the right meaning alwayes Or if the Scriptures may be wrested by subtile heades that yet the Fathers cannot Or that Gods people may sooner see and finde when the Fathers are abused then when the Scriptures are It is great pity that men are yea wil be so deceaved with vaine shews Let vs in Gods name content our selves in handling matters of Religion onely with Gods al sufficient worde vnles where the importunity of an Adversary forceth vs. Otherwise let vs spare the Authority of men in Gods matters to them that make an Idoll of it Finally if in this case we were to looke after any man surely we have more cause to regard our later faithfull Teachers rather then those of old Who being equall with the best of them in any of the excellent graces of Gods spirit which hee vseth to bestow on his servants for the edifying of the Church yet heerein these have advantage of the former that they were directly provoked occasioned to study and sift out this question against the Papists which the Ancients were not occasioned to do After â—ag 341. a you set your self to prove that in Hell there is materiall fire But it seemeth you are now almost afraid so to call it yet b you call it true fire â—ag 343. Which also we vtterly deny All your proofes such as they are runne to prove corporall and materiall fire yet eternall Except your Scriptures which vtterly prove nothing at all for they shew no more any corporall or materiall or true fire to be now in Hell then a corporall worme materiall brimston and much wood true chaines Which you say is a sleeveles obiection but neither your selfe nor Austin whom you cite against it doth any where answer it Yea Austin thinketh that incorporall spirits shal be fastened to corporall fire But he saith not that now they are which only is our question or els nothing For my parte I see no reason to believe that now there is corporall fire in Hell whatsoever there shal be heereafter when Bodies also shal be there vnited and tormented with the Soules Againe Austin heere doth not prove that there shal be such fire hee only sheweth the maner how it may be so heereafter if God will Now if all your reason be the power of God only then aswel you may prove that the sky is fallen For as touching Gods will heerein you name it indeed but you shew it no where nor seeme to shew it All the rest say nothing further nor indeed so far as Austin Yet you thinke it may be called a Pag. â—â— a true created fire That no Christian ever doubted of if you meane that it is a true creature If you meane simply that it is true fire that still we deny And me thinks you should not care for corporall fire
faith that Christes Soule after death Ascended to Heaven remayned there till his Resurrection Namely the Analogy of faith requireth that the Head should bee there where the members were and where they remaine till their Resurrection that there he tary till his Resurrection It seemeth also these texts wil prove it a Ioh. 1â— Where J am there also shall my servant be b cap. 17 I will that where I am there they also shall be with me I see not but that he promiseth heere his servants even a locall accoÌ„panying of him after this life that also generally whither soever he went Moreover this the Fathers c Only Aâ— wavereth where afâ—â—â—ming foâ— where dâ—â—ting all with one voyce I may truly affirme do teach and believe even that Christ after death went no whither but where his faithfull and holy servants were yea and there remayned till his Resurrection To which consent of men somewhere you ascribe exceeding much so that d Perpeâ—â—vern episâ—â— 10. you plainly avouch the coÌ„trary alwayes to be a notorious if not a pernicious novelty To which purpose also other Scriptures doe make very much as where Christ being in the paines of death and presently about to end his life saith Father into thy hands I commend my Soule This being spoken at such a time in the depth of such wofull sorrowes and by such a person in all good reason Gods hands whereinto he commendeth his Soule according to our common vse of speach must be Gods ioyfull peace and Heavenly glory which is also suteable to the scripture phrase as already I have shewed â—reat 1. â—â—g 151. â—â—g 361. neither shew * you any thing against this For what if Gods hands on other occasions do signifie his Power and generall protection only Doth it follow that therefore Holy men oppressed with paines and now about to Dy when they say Father into thy handes I commend my Soule they meane not the ioyes of HeaveÌ„ You aske was David dying when he spake those words He might bee in deadly sorrowes or dangers for any thing you know to the contrary But suppose he were not theÌ„ in danger to dy Yet the Prophets generall sentence may fitly be applyed to this more speciall case of Christ as all men know Howsoever then David were when he spake thus yet Christ now dying ready to come out of most wofull paines doth surely meane when he said so as other holy men do in like case namely to go to Heavâ—n To like purpose serveth that comfort given to the Theefe and common to himselfe This day shalt thou be with me in Paradise As touching †Austius divers opinion and yours â—our p. 360 â—ag 29. see before Be you reconciled vnto him and then let him speake for you Lastlie where the eternal and generall Ordinance of God is shewed to be such â—â—â—k 16.26 that * none can goe out of Heaven downe to Hell nor come from Hell vp to Heaven The text excepteth heere not one This therefore I doubt not is in truth a cleere point against which wee shall find not a worde in scripture that Christes Soule after death was there where the holy Patriarkes deceased were there remayned till his Resurrection So that how you will doe to maintaine that Christ c went indeed vnto them 〈◊〉 220.361 but presently left them that hee might go to Hell I know not In this I doubt you walke f without your guide â—â—g 91. But to proceed I adde that which is a cleere and certaine 〈◊〉 189.193 〈◊〉 219. yea that which g your selfe rightly beleeveth and professeth with vs though against the opinion of the Fathers That the Soules of the holy Patriarkes dead before Christ were not beneath but above not in Limbo but with God in peace ioy blissee even in Paradice 〈◊〉 192.203 that is h Heaven The which to be a doctrine most true against the Popish errour heerein I have briefly i heerto fore â—â—eat 1. â—â—g 131. yet I hope sufficiently proved Therefore hence I conclude that Christs Soule after his death Ascended indeede and descended not downward beneath vs heere 2. Only except there be some speciall reason of good authority to the contrary which is the second point of importance heere to be considered Touching which this I say without expresse and evident Scripture there is in the worlde no sound nor meet authority to disprove our former Reason and Conclusion This also Austin himselfe avoucheth well and faithfully that is supposing there is no expresse nor plaine Scripture for Christs Descending then saith he a Epist â— Miror si quam ad ros cum dâ— dissâ— asserâ— auderet it were marvailous bouldnes that any should dare say he went down to Hel. And againe b Serm. â—temp 14 Nemo de Christo credat nisi quod de se credi voluit Christus No man ought to believe any thing concerning Christ but what himself in his word would have vs to believe Now I assume this and by Gods helpe shall make it manefest No Scripâ—â— at al that Châ—â—â— Soule asâ—â— death dâ— soended That there is in all the Scripture no one place whereby it may bee proved by any shew of reason that Christs Soul after this life went locally downward from hence or diversly from the Soules of all good men deceased besides Yea whatsoever is pretended from the Scripture expresly to prove that he did Descend is but very little and exceeding weake Script prâ—ded Only there are 2. or 3. places sensibly wrested and drawen to this purpose 1. c Your paâ—â— 212. That where Christ is said to have d â—ph 4. come downe into the lowest partes of the earth * Treat â—â—â— pag. 14â— But I have largely and plainly shewed that this place speaketh not a whit neither of Hell nor of Christs Soule descending locally neither before his death nor after It noteth only Christs sensible and apparant Humiliation to the last and lowest point that is to the Grave According to the Hebrue phrase which the Apostles frequented in their Greeke writings very much So that no reason appeareth why or how this place may shew that his Soule after death went downward The rather seeing you will have Christes going downe d Pag 41 to Hell the first and that a notable part of his exaltation and triumph But this was manefestly as I said his lowest abasement Therefore this toucheth not his going down to Hell Where e Pag. 2â— you expound the text say He descended to the lowest and ascended to the highest that he might fill all places with the presence of his Manhood you speake both f In respeâ—â— vbiquitaâ—â— inconveniently and far from the Apostles meaning Who signifieth only Christes filling g Ephe. 1. â— 19 all his Church with the giftes of his Spirit which by his Ascending he h Ioh. 16 7â— Luck 24 4â— promised
to doe and i Act. 2.33 so did indeed Heere is nothing about his filling all places with the presence of his manhood Much lesse is there expresly in the text that which k you adde to it with his presence very deceitfully in a differing letter like the text and togeather with the text â—â—g 212. What censure this deserveth the godly doe knowe Wherefore yet wee must be so scrupulous still as to stick at the phrase of Christs Descending in Soule for as yet wee see no worde in all the whole Scripture any thinge neere much lesse equivalent therevnto If you will vrge that where Christ is said to have a ben 3. dayes 3. nightes in the heart of the earth â—at 12.40 there is nothing els then as before â—ag 21â— even his Buriall Your exception that b Christes sepulchre was in the higher partes of the earth frustrateth not the maner of the Hebrue phrase after which the Scripture speaketh both here and in the last before as I c have declared plainly in my 1. Treatise It seemeth 〈◊〉 144.146 your not considering or not caring for the vse and maner of the Hebrue toung causeth your mistaking as in these places so likewise in all or most of the rest yea indeed it causeth your errour in this maine questioÌ„ as after it will more appeare Third you d make much of that â—ag 213. which doeth you not a pinnes worth of good where it is asked e who shall descend into the deepe â—om 10.7 that is to bring Christ againe from the dead If the deepe heere did signifie Hell which yet certainly it doeth not but suppose it doeth Howe will that follow which you presume that Christ dying desceÌ„ded into the deepe The text saith no such thing It saith he was with the dead and that from thence he came and therfore by this I rather conclude it was thither only that he descended Which also is signified elswhere in the same words â—ph 1.20 f froÌ„ the dead Thus I say the dead heere importeth the generall condition and state of all the Dead as it is opposed to the state of the Living and so it sheweth Christes lowest and last Humiliation as the other places did before saving that before his Grave particularly is intended heere the state of death may bee applyed to his whole humane Person and to both partes thereof dissolved Yea it is not vnlikely that the former word g the deepe is vsed also heere by the Apostle to signifie not Hell Abyssus but even this condition and state of death which is as a Gulfe bottomles never satisfied vnrecoverable Like as Sheol in Hebrue doth likewise properly signifie as after we shall further declare This meaning the Syriak Translator an ancient writer of no small credit seemeth to have sith he turneth it Abyssum Sepulchri the deepe of the Grave And then the deepe signifying heere the state and condicion of Death the Apostle seemeth to expresse his meaning to that effect more clearely in these next words this is to bring Christ againe from the dead that is to frustrate Christes Death wherevnto he descended for our sakes We may consider also that this word heere the deepe many times is referred to the vast Gulfes deepe pits of the earth and likewise to the vnknowen deepe and furthest partes of the sea Now the Apostle may seeme to vse this large signifying word of purpose to expresse the infinit searching about of an incredulous and comfortles minde which seeketh iustice before God by the keeping of the Lawe Who indeed thereby getteth nothing but maketh void vnto it selfe the Gospell and all Christes benefits therein His Death and Resurrection his Ascention c. The Apostle then may insinuat in this word all these senses and significations thereof namely I say with other even such a seeking to the deepest and farthest partes of the Sea to learne somewhere if it might be among all the Creatures of God how to fulfill and keepe the Law For so Moses whom heere he doeth cite * Deu. 30 13. expreslie signifieth then so the Apostle also signifieth the very same For these 3. things the Apostle delivereth heere togeathet 1. That the Law and the Gospell do greatly differ namely in that the Law doeth not save vs but the Gospell doeth 2. He sheweth the cause heereof for that no flesh can keepe the Law nor ever could as he confirmeth by this out of Moses where men thinking to live by the Law are noted to seeke and search every where far and neere by all wayes meanes that they might satisfie their own hearts and finde how to keepe it which proveth that their owne heartes beare witnes that they keepe it not neither can keepe it 3. Hee sheweth that thus by seeking to live by the Law they loose the life of God coming by Christes Death and Resurrection in the Gospell Thus the Apostle rightly keepeth him selfe to the whole matter and meaning of Moses whose wordes though shortened he citeth and discourseth vpon But then it is not possible that the deepe heere should have any reference at all to Hell For what colour is there to make a man pensive about keeping the Law to aske who shall goe downe for him among the Divells and damned spirtis to bring it thence vnto him or to imagine that the keeping of the Law might be rather there then in his owne heart or that any meanes might be got from thence to helpe men that they might keepe it There is no likelilyhood for this out of doubt Therefore also the deepe heere signifieth not Hell any way seeing the Apostle doubtles retayneth Moses sense as is aforesaid Lastly I may not omit to shew how you deale heere againe with the text You alleage it a He descended into the deepe â—ag 220. all with speciall letters differing from the rest of purpose to shew that Christs descent into Hell for so you take the deepe is found written in the very Scripture But He is cuÌ„ningly added to the text neither are these words meant of Him but of a Pharisaical MeritmoÌ„ger searching everywhere for righteousnes by works â—ag 153. b as is before declared The like practise c you vse againe in the Psalme â—ag 147. â—sa 139.8 where the d text hath only veatsignah Sheol If J lodge or if J spread my couch in Sheol thou art there There is no word to expresse beneath which you put into the text of your own head The same also I noted in e you before â—ag 152. â—â—fore pa. 66 Somewhere you charge me but f vainly with falsifying of Ierom. If I had by oversight don so yet that were not like this falsifying which is not of men but of Gods owne word not by oversight but of purpose for advantage These are all the Scriptures that can be brought to make anie shewe of Christes Soule descending locally after his death Which being abused
to this purpose so palpably as before we haue seene I must in earnest say I marvaile that any will beleeve it as an article of faith that Christes Soule descended Specially considering our next reason which followeth Our 2. and most principall Reason is this â—ason 2 If there bee not one place of Scripture to prove that Christes Soule was in Hell then you ought to deny that opinion But you have not indeed any one place that proveth it Therefore it ought to be denyed Against this Argument you say you have one place Pag. 167. Act 2 27. Euen onely one where you thinke it is plaine that Christ saith He reioyceth because God would not leaue his soule in Hell â—r one only â—e neede â—â—e passing â—re and beâ—â—â— all exâ—â—â—ion as this â—â—t For so you must haue it heere translated in Hell even because you will But if men with reason resist your will and proue vnto you that it ought not to bee taken heere for Hell then I pray take it patiently and vse not such raging despitefull termes as against me you do as if I were not worthy to speake of those matters that you speake of vnlesse I would be bound to say your words How be it I beseech you giue vs leave This sentence taken out of Davids a Psal â—â— Psalmes alleadged in the Actes signifieth the very b Pag. â—â— same thing in both places The Hebrew word controversed is Sheol the Greeke Hades Now must the word Sheol and Hades needes signifie Hell being applied to soules departed hence So indeede you c Pa. 1 â—02 avouch more confidently then truly and heerevpon it seemeth you d Pa. 1â— pawne the triall of this Question saying Till we bring you some one good proofe out of the Scriptures that the Soules of the righteous before Christes comming were in Sheol or Hades you will rest in your opinion that by this only plaine place Christes Soule was in Hell We hope then when this proofe which you asko for against your opinion is shewed you will correct your opinion in this point Let it therefore bee considered I pray which the Psalmist also hath elswhere of this matter Sheol attributâ—â— the Soulâ— iust after Let vs interpret the Psalmes by the Psalmes First this we observe in them howe it is written “ Psa â—â— What man liveth and shall not see death Shall he deliver his soule from the hande of Sheol Heere now the Soule attributed to every man living must be properly taken as well as in the former place where you take it for Christs very Soul For e Pag. 1â— This rule must be helde †Much in one aâ—â— same Wâ— in one aâ—â— same maâ— and maâ— speach thoughout the Scriptures that we divert not froÌ„ the native and proper significations of the wordes but when the letter impugneth the grounds of Christian faith and charitie Otherwise we shall leave nothing sound sure in Gods word if we may avoid all things by figures that please not our humours So long then as the proper sense of the Scriptures may stand with the Analogie of faith and direction of charitie we offer violence to the word of God if we wrest it to a figurative vnderstanding Now then it is apparant that heere the soules of all meÌ„ living both good bad after death are appointed to Sheol For there is none whosoever that can possibly escape it saith the text Yet many good men there are then were who could did escape Hell Therefore in the Script Sheol and hades applied to departed soules is not always Hell but the CoÌ„dition or place aswell where the iust mens soules are after death as that where the daÌ„ned are Wherefore we hope that you wil keepe your word that is to acknowledge Sheol and Hades may be applyed to the Soules of iust and blessed men deceased And withall that Christs Soule after his death having Sheol applyed to it by the Psalmist who applyeth the very same also to all iust mens Soules in the worlde when they dy ought not therefore in any wise to be thought to have ben in Hell even because he was the iustest and holyest man that ever was Vnles some other scripture more plaine then this doe affirme it Which because there is vtterly none I say not one that doeth leane any thing towards such a sense therefore you ought not stifly to maintayne that Christes Soule was locally in Hell as hitherto you haue done But Austin a collecteth this opinion from this place in the Actes â—â—g 253. Oh then this point of faith is grouÌ„ded on Austin it is his collection not the text it self without him that serves your turne Certainly so it is But this theÌ„ agreeth not to your worthy protestations noted b before â—ag 28. 29. â—â—r pag 91 â— this becometh not such good wordes I beseech you be not you of them qui virtuteÌ„ verba putaÌ„t Then touching Austins authoritie â—â—fore pag â— c you know how you leave him when you think good regard not his d scant probable proofes coniecturall inclinations Finally â—â—r pa. 169 â— that heere Austin hath no better then scant probable proofes and meere coniectures we shall plainly declare God willing after we have shewed a generall consent and correspondence of all Authors for our sense of Sheol Hades which I hope presently you shall see But first you must note that we goe not about to prove Sheol Hades to be Heaven We never thought it neither need we so to thinke The more is your iniurie when you haue nothing to reprove yet with skoffes and floutes bitter reproches to disgrace me as you doe and that even for this your owne meere conceit Neither yet can your e witty reason prove â—â—g 146. that Limbus heereby can not be avoided Consider a word of like vse in Latin Defuncti signifying the Dead may be applyed generally to the Soules of men deceased Yet notwithstanding this I hope Limbus may be easily avoyded Also I pray are Defuncti none other but the Damned onely in Hell The blessed in Heaven may be likewise called Defuncti I suppose Howbeit not in respect of their being in Heaven Note but only in respect that they haue done with this life and are gone hence The word is properly generall signifying by it selfe neither the Blessed nor the Damned neither to be in Hell nor in Heaven Yet restrained by CircuÌ„stances such as they may be it signifyeth either Certainly so doth hades also Sheol All these the Latin the Greeke The propeâ—â—â— sense of Shâ—â— and Hades and the Hebrew wordes are indifferent and common in them selves signifying in deed no positive thing properly but a meere privation of this life and of a former visible being heere sometime And so it is that the Psalme saith Even the iust mens Soules and all must come to Hades Sheol Moreover thus in
haue another age “ Dâ—r◠〈◊〉 age my coâ—â—nuance or during oâ— my maÌ„sioÌ„ or induring or Mansion and be remoued to another place This can not be vnderstood of his Carcase rotting and wasting away to nothing in the graue and therefore indureth not as the word signifieth therfore he meaneth it of his Soules removing and abiding elswhere Also he expresly opposeth the land of the living to Sheol therfore Sheol is the land of the dead not the graue only nor Hell only * Which alâ— to be collecâ— of that in Prophet toâ—â—ing Christ scinditurâ— râ viventiâ— Isai 53.8 but as large and as generall to the dead and as fit to receaue both the partes of men yea both good and bad men but separated and dissolved as the land of the living is to receave both those partes vnited and knit togeather Againe Hezekiah was a godly man therefore hell was not for him also though hee should not see the Lord in the land of the living which was the thing he desired yet thereby hee seemeth to insinuate that in the land of the dead hee might see him whither he was about to go and that must needes be the place of blessed Soules even that which heere is noted by the word Sheol â—â—g 150. It is a most vaine reason that you give that sheol heere is to be taken for Hell and so to be translated because death to the wicked is the passage to Hel which death Hezekiah was now neere vnto It is vntrue that Hezekiah was neere vnto that death which the wicked dy or that he feared that kind of death or that there is no sound differeÌ„ce betwene the death of the godly the death of the wicked or that by any meanes according to sound divinity the death of the godly may be named or taken for Hell This is so vaine that I will not stand any longer to answere it Another obiection of yours a is as weake Pag. 400. where you say Sheol heere must be the Grave because it is said b afterward ver 18. Sheol doth not confesse the death cannot praise thee c. Though I grant that the Grave is not heere excluded especially in the words next after They that go down to the pit cannot hope for thy truth yet I affirme that Sheol namely in the former place vers 10. cannot exclude the mansion of good mens soules departed hence that for the reasons aboue noted Neither heere doth this circumstance limite it to the Grave onely because it is said Sheol confesseth not thee For it is evident that He Zekiah meaneth not absolutly that there is no praising of God in Sheol but onely hee vnderstandeth that which c hee so greatly desired â—hich was ytâ—â—inary great â—re of the â—lly geneâ—y psal 42. 84.1 the outward frequenting of the Temple the holy Ceremonies and Sacrifices ioyning to the visible congregation and publishing of Gods goodnes to others Which hee expresseth immediatly to be that praising of God that he meaneth cannot be in Sheol by knitting close to the former these words d The living â—sa 38.19 the living he shall confesse thee as I do this day the Father to the Children shall declare the truth This is that which he denieth of sheol that none there doe praise God to the example and edifying of others He denyeth not simply nor absolutly that there is none in sheol at all in any respect that praise God The very same David expresseth also very plainly Psal 116.9 saing e I shall walke before the Lord in the land of the living Psal 118.17 and f I shall not dye but live and declare the workes of the Lord. Where vnlesse they meant only this visible praysing of God to others edifying otherwise these holy men had no cause so greatly to desire to praise God heere for they knew very wel how that for their own parts they should prayse him much better and more perfitly in the next world The Seâ—â—â—â—gint vse 〈◊〉 in the fanâ—â—â—â—â— To the very same purpose the Septuagint vse hades in other places also besides in their translating of these aforesaid For it is truly and well acknowledged by you g Pag 4â— that both these wordes Sheol and Hades are iust all one Now the Septuagint I say in other places do shew thus much also h Psal 9 〈◊〉 after the â—â—â—tuagint Jf the Lord had not holpen me my soule had almost dwelt in Hados in Hebrue it is in silence Which is not meant of hell for there is weeping and wayling and gnashing of teeth but of the state of death Nor yet of the Grave onely because heere it is named to bee the Habitation of the Prophets soule whither it was almost come when he was like to have dyed Againe i Psal 7â— My soule was filled with sorrowes and my life drew neere to hades How my soule and my lift heere are taken for the selfe same I have shewed before As also in that of Iob k Iob. 3â— his life or soule is in hades in the world of the Dead Againe it suffiseth for our purpose that Hades and Sheol are often vsed even indifferently for “ Sheoll 〈◊〉 Hades aâ—â—â—sed often 〈◊〉 only Deaâ—â— effect Thanaâ—â—â—mors Death and as being in effect the same or for the state and Condicion of Death or the Power of Death Which also sometime we may likewise conceave of the Latin Inferi which is by the Translatours and other writers vsed for Sheol and Hades though I deny not very daungerously and corruptly in deed First for a Pro. 2â— misheol the Greeke hath ek thanátou from death reckoning Death and Sheol to be all one So in Ecclesiastes b Eccle. Sheol and c veâ—s Hammethim the dead are in effect all one And the very same doeth Esai call d Isa 3â— Shagnare Sheol the gates of sheol which the e Psa 9. â— 107.18 Psalmes and f Iob. 3â— Iob doe call Shagnare maueth the gates of Death In the * Pâ—o. 3â— and 27â— Proverbes he meaneth Death not Hell nor the Grave strictly taken where by an excellencie the greedines of it is noted for being Neuer satisfied For Death generally craâ—eth more then either Hell or the Grave strictly taken do So likewise Abakuk coupleth them togeather as being in effect alone “ Abaâ— Like sheoll and Death it will not be satisfied Thus also it will appeare that that which g Psal â— David reioyseth for the very same in effect h Psal â— Christ heere reioyseth for Only with this difference David reioyseth that God had delivered his soule from death theÌ„ when he was likely to have dyed Christ reioyseth because God would deliuer his soule from the Condicion of Death sheol after he was in it speedily even before his flesh should corrupt This might be evideÌ„tly shewed in infinit places mo but that it is vtterly needles In this
sense it is that the Reprobates and the Elect after death are said to be togither â—â—n 28.19 a To morrow thou thy sons shal be with vs saith the supposed Samuel to Saul Not that there is any positive thing common to the Elect and Reprobates after death which b you observe wel â—â—g 396. 〈◊〉 Simpâ—â—li â—â—qaest 3. â—â—g 209. but only that they be alike dead and alike remain in death Yet I say they are not like any further This c Aust very well sheweth whom you d bring saith he mortuus mortem vivo proenuntiabat Fathers 〈◊〉 it me our 〈◊〉 of Hadea that is being dead he foreshewed death to him that yet lived So that it was the same condition of death both to Saul and Samuell but not the same fruition of happines Thus the old Latin Translatour vseth Infernum as coÌ„monly for Hades so sometimes for e Thanatos death â—ct 2.24 â— Cor. 15.55 â— Act. 2.24 â—piph in â—â—nacephal 〈◊〉 Anchor â—ustin In â—â—yph and sometimes f Mors death for Hades Epiphanius readeth the g Text indifferently h Thanátou or i Hadou as reckoning theÌ„ in effect all one Justin Martyr long before saith k Christ a little before his death noted the folly of those men tôn nomizónton me êinai auton Christon all hegonménon thanatôsein auton kai hós koinon ánthropon en hadou menein that thought him not to be Christ but that he should dy and remaine in Hades as a common man Hee meaneth not heere as a wicked man in Hell but as any common man whether good or bad dying abideth in Death or in the Dominion of Death or in the world of the Dead Irenaeus saith l Heerein Christ legem mortuorum servavit did but as others do that Dy â—nae lib. 5. 〈◊〉 vlt. conversed 3. dayes vbi erant Mortui sancti where the dead Saintes were And this hee calleth Locum invisibilem the vnseene World What meaneth this but Hades â—es an inviâ—â— place of yeâ—ed Soules as we take it Yea a little before he expresly calleth it Paradise Nevertheles I grant that he thought this vnseene world was indeed beneath in the earth wherein his proofes do vnterly faile him as your selfe do fully grant and professe in that point aswell as wee Againe m hee further sheweth that in the n Scripture he taketh Hades to be all one with Death â—ib 5.13.3.38 â— Cor. 15.55 or the Dominion of Death where he readeth the Text thus Absorpta est mors in victoriâ vbi est mors aculeus tuus vbi est o mors victoria tua â— Greek â—â—des Death is swallowed vp in victorie Death where is thy sting Death where is thy victory And he addeth Haec autem iustè dicentur tunc c. These thinges shall truly be spoken then when this mortall and corruptible flesh about which Death is and which is holden down by a certaine Dominion of Death arising vp into life shall put on incorruption and immortality Then verily shall death be overcome when the flesh which is holden by it shall come foorth out of the Dominion thereof Thus he taketh heere Thanatos and Hades for one and the same thing in effect that is for Death and the power of death and nothing els Tertulian doth likewise for a Terrulâ— Anima 〈◊〉 speaking of Inferi which he taketh for the same that Hades is hee noteth it as the place Quò vniversa Humanitas trahitur whither all mankind must go And therefore of Christs going thither he saith b Cap. 5â— Quia homo mortuus secundum Scripturas sepultus secundum easdem hic quoque legi satisfecit formâ humanae mortis apud inferos functus Because also he was a man therefore he dyed according to the Scriptures was buryed according to the same also heere he satisfied the common law of nature by following the forme of mens Dying and going to the world of the Dead Tertullian is for vs yet further Hee taketh Hades in the c 1 Cor. â— Newe Testament meerely for Death or the Dominion of Death even as Irenaeus before did Thus he readeth the Text that often times d De Râ—carn c. 4â— 54. Vbi est mors aculeus tuus Vbi est “ Hadeâ— mors contentio tua Aculeus autem mortis delinquentia virtus autem delinquentiae Lex O Death where is thy sting O Death where is thy force The sting of Death is sinne the force of sinne is the Law And againe e Adverâ—cion 5. Scriptum est apud f Hose Creatorem Vbi est g Sheol 〈◊〉 Hades mors victoria vel contentio tua Vbi est mors aculeus tuus Verbum autem hoc Creatoris est apud Prophetam It is written by the Creatour Death where is thy victory or thy force or strife Death where is thy sting This is the worde of the Lord God by the Prophet Ozee Still he maketh Hades Sheol nothing els but Death in these places And saith he Deo gratias dicit h 1 Cor. â— Apostolus quod nobis victoriam vtique de morte prestitit The Apostle in the New Testament applying words of the Prophet to the Resurrection giveth thanks to God because he causeth vs to get a victory indeed of Death So still he maketh Hades to be Death and not Hell Which yet is further most cleerely to be seene i De Idoâ— cap. 13 〈◊〉 See also 〈◊〉 before pâ—â— Lazarus apud inferos in sinû Abrahae refrigerium consecutus c. Lazarus in the world of the Dead inioyeth comfort in Abrahams bosom contrariwise the Rich man is in the torments of fire both of them there receaving their divers rewardes How cleere is this that he maketh Hades and Inferos even in a Luke also â—â—â—e 16.23 to be nothing but the common state and world of the Dead Wherevpon the learned Junius noteth thus Observandum autem quod ait Apud Jnferos etiam de Lazaro Nam inferos Latini Patres vt Graeci Haden pro omni loco aut statû mortuorum dixerunt promiscuè Atque in hunc sensum Lazarus Dives apud inferos collocantur 〈◊〉 before â—â—â—g 162. â—â—â—m de â—it 〈◊〉 anima 〈◊〉 55. Quomodo b Irenaeus c Chrysostomus ex verbis Luc. 16.23 locuti sunt TertullÃanus locis quamplurimis This therefore it is that Tertullian saith in another place d Constituimus omnem animam apud inferos sequestrari in diem iudicij We determine that every mans Soule is kept apart in the worlde of the dead til the day of iudgment And Are all soules theÌ„ in the power of the kingdom of Death penes inferos Will you nill you there you shall finde punishments and comfortes as in Lazarus and the Rich man For why should you not thinke that the Soule may be both punished and comforted in inferis in the Worlde of the dead Neither doth he c Montanize in this as
f you obiect but consenteth with Irenaeus before and with others after him as shall appeare 〈◊〉 Innius 〈◊〉 on this chap. 188. who were no Montanists Notwithstanding it is true that somewhere he taketh inferos pro locali determinatione as he speaketh for the peculiar and determinat place of the wicked deceased that is Hell strictly and properly 〈◊〉 4. Thus he doth in that g against Marcion wth you cite pag. 201. Also in that h obiection of certaine Haeretikes whom hee confuteth 〈◊〉 anima 55. not the true Christians as i you k misconceave They argued thus as you do in hoc Christus Jnfiros adiit ne nos adiremus 188. 〈◊〉 title of â—ooke in â—â—â—elius â—â—â—s editioÌ„ Christ therefore went to Hell to the ende that wee might never come there He aunswereth them that it is false that Christe went to Jnferos in that sense that is to Hell for then what difference is there betweene the wicked Heathens and the godly Christians if one the same prison after death were for them both Taking it for a thing generally granted in the church that Christ being dead went onely thither where the godly Dead were and therefore that it were a wicked and Haereticall thing to thinke he went where the Damned were that is into Hell And so he quite overthroweth your opinion togeather with the reason thereof as an opinion whiche if any helde they were ill thought of in those dayes 〈◊〉 99. De â—â—â—es ad lit 〈◊〉 33. Thus also is Augustin well l vnderstood where he denyeth that the Patriarkes were apud inferos in Hell namely the place of the Damned because they were in Abrahaâ—s bosom Which yet b Epist 5â— De civi â— 20.15 elswhere he graunteth vnto that they might be apud inferos in the world of the Dead namely where the Godly dead should be So that thus if you had but distinguished these and other Fathers like words as you ought to haue done there needed no such folly of Contradiction to be imputed vnto them as c Pag. 18â— 200. 204 you doe lay to their charge in this point altogeather vndeservedly Which being well observed you shall see that all the Fathers as Mr Iunius saith both Greeke Latin do take Hades and inferos d Promisâ—â— indiffereÌ„tly for the state of the Dead as wel pertayning to that Soules of the Godly as to the Damned likewise Athanasius also saying e Athanas incar Châ—â—â— vbi tenebatur anima humana in morte ibi exhibuit humanam suam animam Where Humane Soules were held by Death there he brought his humane Soule Meaneth nothing els but that his humane Soule came vnder the same condicion of death as other mens Soules did not that he went to the place of the DaÌ„ned Neiter must he be vnderstood after f Pag. 179 186. 214. your partiall translatioÌ„ but after his owne language the Greek When you say ex Orco out of Hell him selfe saith exhadou out of the power of Death So that g De saluâ—â— vent Châ—â—â— hee saith not a word that Christ was in Hell but onely that his Soule was in Hades in the Dominion of Death as h Ad noâ—â—â— similitudâ— other good mens Soules were also whence he by his victorious returne conquering Death i De salut advent Câ—â—â—stâ— brought vs immortalitie and wrought resurrection for vs. Heere Hades being ennemy and opposit to the Immortalitie and Resurrection of mens persons cannot by any meanes be Hell For Hell agreeth with Immortalitie and Resurrection in Hell shal be immortalitie and resurrection as well as in HeaveÌ„ But it is the common Death and dissolution of our persons which is contrarie to the immortalitie and resurrection of them For as Resurrection is nothing els but a restoring and revniting of the Soule to the Body so the contrarie is nothing els but meerely the dissolution and separation of the Soule from the Body which is Death and not Hell Now in this death saieth Athanasius Christ was held till he spoyled and conquered it thereby giving vs resurrection and immortalitie This can not be Hell out of questioÌ„ Hilarius verily hath this meaning also saying k Hilar. â— Psal 13â— This is the Law of humane necessitie that their bodyes goe down to the Grave their Soules to the world of the Dead ad inferos Which descent the Lorde did not refuse that he might prove him selfe in every point to bee a true man His going to Hell proveth him not to be a true man but his Soul to com vnder the power of Death as well as his body to com to the Grave 〈◊〉 koinoâ—â—â—â—ôpos â—â—â—em morâ—â—â— servaâ—â— that right well proveth him in deed to have bene a true man and wholy in nature like all other men Also this was indeed the Lawe of humane necessitie after the like phrase as a Iustin â—â—â—gi satisfaâ—â—â— forma huâ—â—â— mortis â—â—â—us â—ag 157. â—efore 〈◊〉 Death â—â—es aâ—e vâ—â—â—or the same b Irenaeus and c Tertullian also speake but not to goe to Hell Now this Death properly beloÌ„geth to the Body of Men d as it is left without life Also no lesse properly it beloÌ„geth to the whole Person of men as it is dissolved and destroyed thereby Thirdly by consequence it beloÌ„geth to both the dissolved partes yea even to the immortall Soule though blessed not as it is in blessednes but as it remayneth held from the Body by the force of Death And so all these last named are very excellent places to prove which afterward I shall further shew that all those articles of the Creed He Dyed was Buryed and descended to Hades do indeed signifie but one thing in effect that he was a true man seeing thus it befell him as it doeth all other men by the Law of our Nature that is to Dye And therefore that it was cleane left out in all ancient Creedes where both those other clauses are specified as being no divers point in effect from Dead and Buryed Which Creedes nevertheles are worthily deemed to be absolute and perfit touching Christes workes of Redemption which hee hath wrought for vs. Since perhaps when it came into the Common Creed they signified heereby Christes going to Limbus Which opinion indeed men generally inclined vnto though erroneously for many yeares yet that the Ancients put this Descending to hades meaning Limbus or howsoever into the vulgar Creed distinctly from both the other foresaid clauses I beleue not The contrary is proved afterwardes as anon we shall see But to proceed heere â—â—rys Hom. â—ivit de 〈◊〉 bol Tom. in 1. Cor. Hom. 40. â—â—â—asil in 〈◊〉 48. â—â—â—mbr de 〈◊〉 mort 〈◊〉 10. â—â—â—rom in 〈◊〉 1â— 14 â—â—â—uffin in â—â—â—bol 〈◊〉 413.414 c Chrysostom and d Basill likewise with the rest of the Greeks may be noted how they yeeld Hades to the Soules of the godly and iust men deceased remayning in ioyes Also Ambrose
from 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to see and α the privative as all Graecians Plato Plutarch c. yea the Fathers Irenaeus Tertullian Ambrose c. do shewe and that it signifieth An invisible state after a visible being in this world and somtime Darknes or a place of darknes Not that the state of all the Dead generally was thought to be in darknes but because Death tooke them out of this cheerefull worlds light and covered them as it were with darknes and oblivion from the worlds sight and knowledge heere This etymologie of hades was most familiar and frequent with all Grecians with whom it seemes Austin was not much acquainted as by this his wide coniecture we may thinke Neither impute this I pray as arrogancie to me for so iudging of such a man I think all men will so iudge of him likewise and yet derogat nothing from his great desert in Gods Church Him self doth soberly acknowledge it of him selfe saying “ Contrâ—â— Peâ—il 2â— Ego quidem Graecae linguae perparùm assecutus sum propè nihil Truly J have but litle Greck yea almost none Neither would he heere have said perhibetur thus it is reported touching the Etymologie of Hades if he had preteÌ„ded any skill in that toung Yea Possidonius in his Life testifieth that he had no love to the Greeke language Besides many other argumentes heereof if it were likely that I wronged him in iudging thus of him Wherefore seeing it was thus no marvaile if Austin easily mistooke the proper right meaning of hades c then much sooner of Inferi for the reason * Pag. â— Treat 105. before noted Thus also he might readily imagin heervpon that Hades and Inferi in Scripture specially were no where applyed to blessed Soules Which oversight in him is much more pardonable then it can be in you who I doubt not in the languages want no skill if you would but sincerely iudge according to that you do vnderstand Yea and in comparison of my selfe I vnfainedly confesse that I suppose I haue not seene many bookes in the learned tounges which you are likely to have read and studied Nevertheles I am well assured that in the sense of these words Hades and Sheol you are greatly over hot and most of all in this vnsavoury opinioÌ„ coming therefrom that Christes soule after death went to Hell As I hope it hath hitherto well appeared Yet you will say Austin speaketh marveilous resolutely pist 99. that a None but an infidell will denie that Christes Soule was in inferis So he may well vnderstanding heere Jnferos to expresse Hades in Greeke for that is the Scripture in deed Which to denie were infidelitie But hee is no insidell that denieth inferos to be a fit Latin worde for Hades in Greck 〈◊〉 some have 〈◊〉 â—t simply 〈◊〉 the state 〈◊〉 cath pa. â—3 c. 〈◊〉 Graeca â—â—â—ua origo â—â—â—nis c. or * admitting the translation yet denyeth in English that Christ was in Hell After all yet I may not forget how Aust. heere would have in this coÌ„troversie the very nature proper Etymologie of Hades to be regarded and precisely followed notwithstanding that him self mistooke it much How then is it that you skornfully cal this indeavour touching the Hâ—brue Sheol b Rabbinicall Grammar observations â—â—g 153. and touching Hades in Greeke the Poets fantasticall imaginations In this therefore Austin also is not a litle against you Other exceptions of his touching the matter we shall afterwards consider togeather with yours Now I come from the Ancients to the later learned Writers that we may not neglect their iudgment in this question 〈◊〉 late Deâ—ors of the â—â—â—ll conâ—â—â— oâ—â— exâ—â—ion Who as they were generally freer from errour then those of olde for the most part so they testifie this point with me more cleeâ—ly more constantly then they Who were observed * before Yet because you let them go without as it were saluting them and as if they were not worthie belike that you should cast a looke on them 〈◊〉 cat 1. therefore they shal be noted once more that I may presse you with theÌ„ and that others at least wise may consider them better Bucer saith The Scripture no where speaketh of Hades or Infernum but as being common aswell to the blessed as to the damned 〈◊〉 in Mat. 〈◊〉 50. But Gehenna is proper only for the damned Againe In that we acknowledge that the Lord went down to Infernum we vnderstand that in his Soule he ioyned to the society of the soules of the dead Saints even as in his body hee was ioyned to their bodyes by Buriall P. Maâ—tyr a P Mart Symbo That Christ descended to Inferos or Hades signifieth nothing els but that he did vndergoe the same state as other souls do that depart this life Mollerus touching Sheol Hades and Infernum ascribed to Christ b Moller Psalm 1â— saith they do signifie but that Christ dyed and to be no more then as if he should say in the Psalme Therefore I reioyce because I know that although I dy yet I shall rise to life againe Bulinger speaking of Christ indiffereÌ„tly of the godly sheweth c Bullin D 1.7 8. that To go to Inferos is to go to Abrahams bosom that is into Heaven not into Hell and that Inferi and Hades do make difference only betweene the Living and the Dead nothing els Lavater saith d Lavat Eâ—ech caâ—â— 31.18 Hades in Greeke is a generall worde for the condition of the dead both in torments and in peace Tremellius saith e Annoâ—aâ— Psal 49. This Hebrew word Sheol doth signifie any station or state of the ' Dead in generall in very many places of Scripture and Hell it may sometime signifie but by a figure synecdoche Lastly Iunius in his note vpon Tertullian f Pag. 16 before rehearsed doth confirme all this most fully These men I thinke every wise and faithfull Christian will highly esteeme and prefer for their learning and namely for their skill in the toungâ—s for their syncerity and soundnes in Religion for their vnity and conseâ—â—â—n this point for their diligence faithfulnes and mâ—dâ—sty in all thinges The learâ— Heathen thoutâ— coÌ„our sense Hades The rather this sense of Hades we are to acknowledge because it hath ben the ancient phrase and common vse of speach before Christianity that this worde should signifie the generall state of Dâ—ath applyed even to the Soules both of the Blessed Damned Which sufficiently I shewed “ Treat 〈◊〉 97 98. before out of Plato Homer and others Yea no lesse I shewed also touching the Latin worde Inferi out of * Pa. 100 108. Cicero though this word naturally implyeth an error wch Hades doth not as before also I have declared What is your answer to this Forsooth I thinke because you have ben a master of Grammar you go about to teach Cicero Latin
this last way is not the vnlikelyest Hades heere signifieth in effect nothing els but Death that Christs Soul departed this life was held therein but could not be holden fast â—â—g 166. You obiect c We must not make a Figurative sense but where manefest need is Heere is no need of a figurative sense Therefore heere ought to be no Figure supposed I answer First wee grant your Conclusion whether of the 2. former wayes soever that we take hades so there is simply no Figure at all therein Sec Then your own sense of Hell in this place is cleane overthrown by your selfe For whensoever hades and sheol do signifie Hell it is indeed by a Figure namely Synékdoche where the Whole is set for a part Which I have proved at large before â—â—re pag. particularly by d Tremellius a sufficient man for his Hebrue skill Wherefore by this reason Hell cannot possibly be meant heere if no Figure be admitted Third it seemeth convenient and also likely to take hades heere by a Prosopopoea after our 3. sense before noted Which kind of Figure supposeth as it were a Person of that thing which otherwise a word properly signifieth So that by this figure nothing of the wordes native signification is diminished Thus our word hades is vsed in the Corinthians O Hades where is thy victory Also as it may seeme in the Revelation Death Hades were cast into Hell â—â—ther as pa. 17â— Thus then it is nothing but emphatically signifying the power of Death Fourth Admit that hades and sheol did properly signifie Hell as we see they do not Likewise that sometime they signifie only the Grave which also you acknowledg it is true when it is applyed to a dead Body Againe admit that nephesh by a Figure may signifie the whole Person yea e the dead Body somtimes 〈◊〉 doth 〈◊〉 21.1 〈◊〉 2â— 4 Then I affirme that heere in this place of necessity there ought to be vnderstood a Figurative sense Heere is plainly most necessary cause For take them thus literally as you doe and they impugne the groundes of faith and charitie Which f Pag 1â— you grant that rightly is sufficient to cause a Figurative sense in Scripture But how do they impugne faith or charity being taken as you take them Verily thus Your sense implyeth by the way and consequently Points in Assertion â—â—â—trary to â—â—â—coÌ„mon â—â—oâ— Faith 〈◊〉 charity that a good and sinles man yea the best that ever was worthy of Paradise and the highest Heavens yet after death did go to Hell And further that being in Heaven yet he stayed not there as you say but immediatly came out againe to go into Hell Againe that a Humane soule being in the depth of Hell yet should feele no paines and that being locally in hell it should com out thence also What can be more against the generall rules of the Scripture then these things Yea how doth this impugne our generall charity towards all the iust when they dy Besides many other disproportions and vnreasonable inconveniences following withall as anon we shall further see Wherefore if by any meames possibly a Figure may be heere admitted certainly it must be so for these most necessary causes last rehearsed The rather seeing no other text any where insinuateth any such peculiar matter in Christ that he should differ in these points from all good men els as you do vrge But you say The Cirâ—â—stances 〈◊〉 against yâ—â— the circumstances heere doe prove that the word must be Hell properly taken That I would faine see What are these circumstances First this place sheweth * Pag. 1â— a special prerogative verified in none but in Christ I deny it heere is no such prerogative mentioned Except this that whereas some other men after death have returned to life againe it was not by their owne power as Christs ResurrectioÌ„ was Againe God in his revealed wil having signified by his Prophet long before that he should be restored speedily to life againe thus it was simply impossible that Christ should be holden fast by the power of Death although it had got hold of him And so indeed he had a prerogative before all men ells which also is heere shewed vs but no other prerogative in the world neither heere nor any where els caÌ„ be gathered touching his returne from Hell You adde No flesh dead was ever free from corruption but only Christes What then Ergo his Soule was in Hell Or ells why bring you such needles and impertinent matter Besides I iudge that not to be true Were not a Pag. 1â— some being dead raised to life againe before their flesh putrified But nonâ— you say in the sepulchre And what then How will this inferre or prove that so none but Christs Soul was ever supported in Hel or that it was ever there These are simple reasons for so great a conclusion Then you say Jf by Hell we vnderstand Paradise it was no privilege to be there not forsaken but rather a childish absurdity to thinke any Soule might be there forsaken It is a strange absurdity still to abuse your reader calling this word Hel â—â—tio prinâ—◠〈◊〉 which indeed is nothing but Death in effect the Power of death or the condition and state of death Againe to presume that wee take it for Paradise or Heaven or Hell at any time when we referre it allwayes to the generall state of the Dead and no further immediatly Now in this Christ had cause to reioyce that neither his Soule nor Body was left but so soone raysed vp to perfit life againe and so sitted to a full receaving of glory which within few dayes after he had Also besides this cause his deliverance from the condition of death he had an other inestimable cause to reioyce that he was raised to life againe namely that he might fulfill his whole work for our Salvation which before his Resurrection Ascension c he could not accomplish â—â—g 170. Further b you obiect that Peter maketh mention that the sorrows of death were broken that they should not hold Christ nor hinder him from rising againe But there were none such in the Grave none in Paradise Therfore in Hel Christs Soule was whence he was delivered when he rose againe I denie vtterly this sequele Because the text saith not that there were any present sorrowes in Hades where Christ was Heere is not a word to any such purpose 〈◊〉 2.24 What saith the text God raised him vp loosing the sorrowes of Death because it was impossible for him to bee holden fast of it Wil you coÌ„clude froÌ„ hence Ergo there were present sorrows in that place where Christ was There is no strength in this reason The Apostle signifieth heere 2. or 3. things 1. That God loosed Death froÌ„ him wherein hee was held but could not be holden fast 2. That this Death had bene a most sorrowfull painfull Death
good also to try whether any where els Hades properly signifieth Hell Verily it doth so signifie no where at all in the Scripture Yet I graÌ„t it is ought to be traÌ„slated Hel in b Mat. 1â— Luc. 16. 2. places Not that the word it self doth necessarily signifie Hel but because the circumstances heere doe require that meaning as the fittest best for these particular purposes In the 1. Christ promiseth that the Gates of Hades shall not prevaile against his Church He meaneth no destruction nor desolation shall root it out nor take it away from the world vtterly Now seeing of the Churches Destroyers Hell is the chiefest and the malice and tage of Satan is the most violent adversarie that the Church being assured against the worst enimie may be confirmed and comforted against all other whatsoever therefore kat ' exochèn Hades heere signifieth Hell for speciall emphasis we are to name it Hell Which particular is heere intended thus indeed being alwayes coÌ„tayned otherwise in the compasse of this general word Hades So that albeit the gates of Hades in their own simple nature common vse are the same as the gates of Sheol or maveth which are no more but the gates of Death as “ Pag â—â— before I haue showed and as * Zuinglâ—â— Esay 38â— Moller 〈◊〉 Psal 16â— others call it periphrasis moriendi a phrase or speach signifiing Death yet I say the circumstances heere in Matthew doe require a greater emphasis in it Even that Hell should be chiefly and particularly noted as to weake against Gods Church that so we should much lesse feare al other evills Likewise in †Luk. 1â—â— Luke I grant Hades is to be translated Hell yet onely because of the circumstances there Seeing the wicked miser being nowe in the state of Death was in tormentes now where could this be indeed but in Hel So that heere also for better emphasis sake it is best to name it Hell but not for the nature of the word Hades which the worthy M. Bucer noteth wel saying Dives non simpliciter scribitur esse in Hade sed in Gehenna quia in tormentis stammis The Rich man is not saide to bee simply in Hades but also in Hell because he is said to be in firy torments Thus I grant in 2. places Hell is intended by Hades in the Scripture But what then Will you conclude from this as you do about Abyssus â—â—g 213 In the Revelation and Luke d Abyssus is vsed to signifie Hell Therefore it signifieth hell in the * Romans or therefore every where properly it signifieth hel â—â—n 10 7. Death somtime is the 2. Death â—â—g 170. Ergo it is so Act. 2.24 If you will argue so about hades also from those 2. places before named I can easily deny your argument in all The vntruth whereof hath appeared before in that principall place of the Acts and likewise shall appeare in all the rest following by Gods helpe â—â—g 403. Next let vs a consider b And thou Capernaum 〈◊〉 11.23 which art lift vp to the Heaven shalt be brought down to Hades to Destruction I say Hades heere is not hell but the Destruction of Capernaum the City Christ threatneth 1. this proud and lofty City it selfe also the inhabitants thereof for despising his Gospell The City it selfe with destruction and razing out from the face of the earth which is it that hee meaneth by Hades The inhabitants the wicked people thereof he threatneth with c Damnation in hell 〈◊〉 â—4 For the 1st I vnderstand that so Hades somtime may be referred to the Destruction even of vnreasonable things aswell as of reasonable men For it seemeth the generalitie of the word Hades is such that it signifieth No visible being heere any more 〈◊〉 in the 〈◊〉 gene or Destruction from this world as the proper Etymologie thereof admitteth to any visible Creature perishing froÌ„ hence Though it be certaine it is not so often applyed to other thinges but it belongeth most commonly vsually indeed to Men only Notwithstanding to other things we may find it applyed as where Plato which d you stumble at saith in Hades were Birds 〈◊〉 â—4 Beasts Trees Flowers Fruits c. I deny not but they had fabulous and toyish conceits about these thinges being in Hades but wise men may see how their meaning was these visible creaturs being once brought to Destruction to have no being any more heere that then they yeelded hades vnto them also like as they did vnto meÌ„ departed hence â—â—tarch de â—â—â—ult viv This may be the meaning also of Plut. where d he maketh Hades to have the whole contrary part to the Sunne whoÌ„ they called also Apollo Delius and Pythius because al Creatures vnder the Sunne as we vse to speak when they perish hence and have no more being in this world com to Hades And thus it seemeth Moses also vseth Sheol when he saith b Numb 1 30 33. men women children and cattell alive yea howses and riches went to Sheol Therefore heere Moses certainly meaneth not Hell as “ Pag. 1â—â—â— you think but he signifieth 2. things 1. That all these things were taken vtterly away out of this world by an vnrecoverable Destruction which is the most generall and large sense of Sheol 2. That they descended downe into a b As also Psâ—â—â— 86.13 anâ— 88.7 Deut. 32. vast and deepe Gulfe in the earth which also Sheol doth very often signifie in the Scripture like to Abyssus in Greek After which maner also those c Psal 49. Sheepe in Sheol which d Pag. 399. you turne to the worst may be vnderstood Thus I say Sheol may shew the vtter taking away not of men onely but of other things also when they have no being in this world any more Which Abacuk also meaneth in saying e Abac. 2 2â— neither Sheol nor Death can be satisfied if he make any difference in these Also in the very like place of the f Pro. 30 1â—â— Proverbs Sheol seemeth to bee most rightly vnderstood in the most large signification To which sense likewise I take it that phrase in Daniel en lo may be compared though heere it be vsed of Messiah â—tikkare Messiah ve ên lo Dan 9.26 Messiah shal be cut of and shall have No being He meaneth Not any more as he was before in this world which in effect is nothing els then that which Sheol signifieth Yet wee must come neerer You alleage 2. frivolous proofes of Sheols signifying Hell viz when it hath g Pag. 147. Opposition to Heaven and Situation as the lowest For the Situation of Hell it is a secret which Gods worde hath not revealed at all Neither ought we to determine as you very rasly do h Pag. 112. Jf Hel be any where there can be no doubt but it must be in the lower parts of the earth You know
even Ruffinus in his exposition of the Creed alleageth this article and he alloweth the doctrine thereof I answere He alleageth truly these wordes Descendit ad inferna but not out of any example of the Apostles Creed yea he expresly denieth it to be therein any where at that time as before we shewed Only it being his owne and the common opinion then hee groundeth it vpon other reasons namely certaine misâ—aken scriptures yet such as he was content to like of and so holdeth indeed that Christ went downe to Infernum that is to Limbus Patrum as an opinion then common among men and worthy as he thought to be beleeued and to be applyed to this place of the Creed touching the Death of Christ â—asin in â—mb Caâ—h 4. although as yet no such matter was contayned in the common Creed Erasmus sayeth The Fathers would not be so rash as to put it into the articles of their Creed seeing their opinions heereabout were so varying and doubtfull Now this you know was all mistaken wrongfully gathered from the Scriptures as badly applyed to the Creed nothing els indeed but the common error of those tymes Yet then hitherto all this is farre from iustifying your opinion nerâ—â—er may you alleage the Creed for your warrant Where note also that Ruffinus heere vnderstandeth the very matter it self precisely signified by these words Descendit ad inferna to be immediatly but this that He dyed like other good men and was buried For hee saith Vis verbâ—â—adem videtur esse in eo quod Sepultus dicitur The effect of this phrase He descended to Infernum seemeth to be all one and the same with this He was Buried And afterwarde going abâ—ut to prove by the Scripture that Christ descended to JnfernuÌ„ he sheweth that hee meaneth his death heereby and his buriall Quod in infernum descendit evidenter praenuÌ„tiatur in Psalmis vbi dicit Et in pulverem mortis deduxisti me Et iterum Quae vtâ—litas in sanguine meo dum descendo in Corruptionem And before vpon those wordes He was Crucified vnder Pon. Pilate and descended to infernum hâ— giveth this sense among other wordes Divina natura in mortem per carnem descendit The Divine nature humbled it selfe eveÌ„ vnto Death in respect of the flesh Howsoever then he thinketh consequently that Christ descending to infernuÌ„ did after Death goe to a place beneath vnto the godly Soules departed before then set them free from thence and caried them with him yet it appeareth that immediatly by this phrase and properly he meant no more but that he Dyed and was Buâ—ied all the rest was consequent as an effect after this according as he and most others of the Ancients did think Lastly heer we see that Ruffinus extendeth this his Descending to the Divine nature but he meaneth it improperly and in a certaine sorte according to that also in the Philippains a Phil. 〈◊〉 He being in the forme of God b Verse humbled himselfe became obedient vnto death So that properly he meaneth it of the very death of his Manhood and nothing els Which is our very minde and iudgment agreeing also generally with the Fathers heerein c Pa. 162 before rehearsed But Ignatius “ Pag. 1 you thinke †is clearely yours likewise one d Pag 17 Thaddaeus by Eusebius report one of the 70. Disciples which the Evangelist Luke speakes of also e Pag 41 Athanasius Creed Ignatius saying Christ descended to Hades alone but rose again with many Ignaâ—â—us meaneth evidently his Buriall and going downe into his Grave as you acknowledge that f Pag. 14. Hades many times may well signifie Which is the plainer to be his meaning for as much as he noteth his Buryall heere in no other wordes besides And sure he alludeth to that in Mathew g Math 27 53. The Graves did open and many bodyes of the Saintes which slept arose And came out of the Graves after his Resurrection and went into the holy City and appeared to many This is touching the Resurrection of their bodyes out of their Graves not of their Soules ansing vp from Hell Neither in Ignatius is there any shew of reason that he meant Hades for Hell He may meane I grant that which is in effect all one the restoring of their whole Persons taken away hence by Death or their comming from vnder the Dominion and power of Death which indeed is according to the proper largenes of this word Also that Christ katélthe came vnder the same Not that he went locally downeward except in his Buriall but touching his whole manhood that hee was humbled and abased even vnder the Dominion and strength of Death And thus it is true that h As Ruffiâ—â— also vndâ—â— stood â—t 〈◊〉 200. Christ by his Death including also togeather his Buriall came downe or Descended But only this you vrge and stand vpon for your claime to Ignatius because it is said He brake downe the wall or stop which was never brokeÌ„ before Where you may know that the meaning is this The power of the Grave or the strength and force of Death was now by Christes Death Resurrection vtterly overcome and dissolved which remayned in deed from the beginning of the world till Christes death as a mighty Wall not broken downe But now the vertue of his death and resurrection brake it cleane downe for ever So that heereby Christ is taught to be as the Apostle also to like effect speaketh the first fruites of the Dead Pag. 179. But you say a Many rose from the dead before Christ and therefore that partition was often broken by others before him I aunswer Though some being dead did rise to life againe before Christes Resurrection as touching the time yet the vertue and power of Christes resurrectioÌ„ was before them by which only and meerely they rose againe Neither yet was ResurrectioÌ„ to all the Dead foorth with performed by the Resurrection of Christ neuertheles throughly purchased it was eveÌ„ then and by the only power and vertue thereof is shal be performed to all in due time So that thus Christ alone brake that wall and stop and absolutly he hath broken it downe which no man before him nor besides him ever brake The like vnto this is your Thaddaeus sentence â—â—â—ddaeus â—â—â—â—nasius also Athanasius in his Creed Whom the rather thus I vnderstand as it seemeth most reasonably and necessarily because they expresse neither his Death nor his Buriall at all in any other wordes save these He descended to Hades Therefore surely this is it which heere they meane by his descending to Hades and this is all that they meane therein that he was brought vnder the dominion of death and was Buryed â—â—escending â—â—plied to â—â—â—â—ts Soule 〈◊〉 Death â—ever fouÌ„d â—â—cripture in anie â—â—cient â—â—ed Consdering also that * no Ancient Creed in the world hath all these 3. divers and
distinct Clauses He ' Dyed was Buryed Descended to Hades not the very Apostles Creed as we call it in Ruffinus time had them as we have seene But this last clause which is in question was put in since that time to signify Christs going to Limbus it seemeth by whomsoever it was put in â—â—t wel obâ—â—ed Treat â—ag 93. â—â—g â—15 as is before said b Your seeking to prevent this reason because the Ancient Creeds want sundry other Articles which now are in our vulgar Creed is to no purpose For as much as they all do evermore intend to set down persitly the summe of Christs accomplished Redemption Mediation at the least Not any of those his maine workes are in theÌ„ omitted Now alwayes in the Creeds where they expresse his Dying and Burying there is omitted his going to Hades Where they expresse his Going to Hades Note there they omit his Dying or his Buriall or both Therefore I may well conclude I thinke that no Ancient Creed in the world ever meant to teach that Christ went to Hades except in such a sense only as was in their iudgement in effect all one as to Dy or to go among the Dead and to be Buried and no more Thaddaeâ—â— coâ—nâ—eâ— Thus farre of Thaddaeus and Athanasiaes Creeds Howbeit to speak plainly your Thaddaeus whom a Pag 1 179. you so highly esteeme is a meere couÌ„terfait You say This report of him in b Pag. 1â— Eusebius by som men is couÌ„ted fabulous Nay who ever since Euseb I think held it for better Many other like matters are to much allowed by Euseb in other cases also notwithstanding his story of the church affaires theÌ„ I grant is iustly receaved as the best that we have extant But it is strange that this fable forgerie of Thaddaeus should so please you It is all forged or els fouly corrupted for these reasons 1. This writing touching Thaddaeus brought by Eusebius from Edessa saith that Judas the Apostle who sent this Thaddaeus being one of the 70. Disciples was the same who is called also Thomas the Apostle But the Scripture it selfe sheweth that Iudas and Thomas were 2. divers and seuerall Apostles Therefore this writing is false 2. Heere also we may probably conceave an other errour that this Thaddaeus one of the 70. seemeth to be mistakeÌ„ in this SyriaÌ„ writing for Thaddaeus one of the 12. Apostles 3. Further this counterfait Thaddaeus was content to receave and did receave even from a King him selfe and also as it seemeth from one of his Nobles Adoration and worship Whereas the true servants of Christ Peter the Angell refused vtterly the same in such very maner offered vnto them by meaner persons in respect of state Therefore this Thaddaeus if he were any was some false Apostle and came not by Christes sending but led by the spirit of errour and seduction as some were who went abroad in the name of Disciples and Apostles in those dayes 4. Neither doe I see how it can possibly be true which this Thaddeus saith that Christ ascended vp to his Father with a great multitude seeing the Scripture sheweth how after 40. dayes the tyme that he conversed with his Apostles hee ascended in all their sightes alone vp into Heaven You get nothing therfore by citing these vngainful * None which 〈◊〉 prove 〈◊〉 very Phâ—â— to be in postles 〈◊〉 then thâ— prove 〈◊〉 Matter 〈◊〉 witnesses for you Nor yet by citing the Apostolike Creed seeing you stand only vpoÌ„ the precise order of the words He Dyed was Buryed descended into Hades Which how weakely they make for you c Pag. 1â— 199. before we have shewed Whervnto this may be added that verily it seemeth there was no certaine prescript number of Articles in the Creed of olde much lesse any precise or exact forme of wordes such as now we haue and which is all your hold This partly by Ruffinus writing vpon it Wee may inke that the postles Creed 〈◊〉 no exact â—rm of words the primitive â—es may be vnderstood who among the words of the Creed then rehearseth not divers materiall wordes which our vsuall forme now hath expresly The Ancients Ignatius Irenaeus Iustin Tertullian Origen c. in their Creedes doe differ more both for words and matter also Yet they all pretend to rehearse the Apostolike Creed as by Tradition they receaved it as they severally conceaved it at least so far alwayes as concerned Christs maine distinct works of Redemption wrought for vs. Neither overthrow you this in saying that b som of theÌ„ want a good many of the Articles which are in the Apostles Creed For as I said they want none neither ought they concerning Christes mediation wrought for vs. His going to Hell was a maine a distinct part thereof if he went thither indeed Wherefore they might not in any wise be defective therein Againe though they want Articles which are now in our forme of the Apostles Creed yet how prove you that they want any of that which with them was vulgar and common Last of all though some of the Ancients do not perhaps rehearse all the Articles of the Apostolik Creed as it was then currant by Tradition in the Churches yet you have no colour in the world to thinke that none of them all should rehearse it wholy and intirely But in none of them all is this forme of the Creed found which we now have and do observe Yea by the varietie difference of them all who still professe that they vtter the Apostolike Creed taught them by Tradition we may see that the Apostles Creed had not any exact nor precise forme of words at the beginning as now we have it vsed among vs but it contayned onely as we may thinke certaine Heads of Doctrine fundamentall â—â—om the Aâ—â—tles â—t seeâ—â—th there 〈◊〉 receaved â—â—rief summe â—â—tter no â—â—cise forme words for 〈◊〉 common â—â—ed That there is one God 3. Persons The Father the Sonne and the Holy Ghost That the Sonne Iesus Christ is both God and Man That as man hee was extreamely humbled for vs even vnto Death and after that exalted vnto glory in Heaven whence in due time he shall come to iudgment c. This in effect all Creeds do expresse but in words they differ greatly somtimes some have mo articles then these yet such they seeme to bee as were on some special occasion more particularly and expresly noted being otherwise either some part or els some proper effect consequent from these And so it might come to passe that some of the Ancient Creeds differed somwhere in some particular articles from other Creeds yea all of them in words from each other and yet in substance and effect they were all one Seeing then that the Apostles Creed for the precise forme of words was not the same in the primitive Churches which we now have yea that at first it had no exact forme of words at al.