Heresie but it was so contradicted howsoeuer the Fathers were at the same time otherwise occupied And we shew that these supposed Heresies were not as you blaspheme taken into the Church by emulation of Paganes or Heretikes as here cap. 6. pag. 36. to pag. 56. In how many places doth S. Augustine say that Origens heresie of the Damneds saluation after a while was ioyned with a certaine humane pietie And yet who knoweth not how the Origenistes for all that were most ernestly and continually resisted And the like may be shewed in all the like that as well the Heresies which had a shew of pietie and charitie were faithfully resisted as the others no Heresie at all lacking some shew for the time And howsoeuer now you make a small matter of prayer for the dead Cap. 11. coÌ„tradict â—1 in the next Chapter after your vsuall maner of contradicting your selfe you will make it equall to the greatest most blasphemous against Christ and against God and occasion of most licentious wickednes in all that belieue it c. Besides that the Fathers in déede withstood your friend Aerius who would haue entred with the contrarie and likewise all those other knowen friends of yours the old Heretikes Had they for all their being occupied against those horrible Heresies leasure to withstand trueth and had they not leasure to withstand corruptions of trueth You thinke your folowers very béetles if you hope to blind them with such grosse conueiance But you haue also Scripture forsooth to couer your iuggling Ar. â—8 2. Thes 2. For when the Scripture telleth vs that the Mysterie of iniquitie preparing for the General defection Reuelation of Antichrist wrought euen in S. Paules time it is folly to aske whether sodenly and in one yere and consequently with much preaching against it Ar. 43 all Religion was corrupted Against your blaphemous vnderstanding of this texte as if it said that the Church of Christ wrought the mysterie or preparation of Antichrist I haue replied cap. 8. pag. 121. But now whosoeuer wrought it doth your text say that ther was then no preaching against it No such word Besides what a mad imagination is this of yours that if all Religion had bene corrupted in one yeare then the Pastors would haue cryed out against it but being wrought by litle and litle they either could not espie it or were content to winke at it For who séeth not in the Ecclesiasticall Histories and other monumentes of Antiquitie that they gaue warning vigilantly and faithfully as well against those Heretikes that would haue corrupted but one or a few Articles as against those others that sought to corrupt many or all So haue they done all the time of the mysterie against all the Heresies that from the beginning haue wrought it 1. Ioan. 2. couertly therein seruing Antichrist them selues also therefore termed Antichristes So they do now also being the time of the defection or Apostasie though not Generall S. Paule doth not so call it of which Antichristian Mysterie you Protestants are the workers as I haue declared cap. 8. pag. 124. to .133 And after all the mysterie when his Reuelation coÌ„meth shall that at least passe vncontrolled You according to the blasphemies of your Apostasie do make that Antichrist is long agoe reuealed to the which I haue in the same place answered moste irrefragably by the Scriptures them selues that you abuse But now whensoeuer his Reuelation be doth any text say that there is then no preaching agaynst him Ar. 36. 2. Thes 2. Mat. 24. Apoc. 12. For so you say When the comming of Antichrist was in all power of lying signes and wonders in so muche that if it were possible the very Elect should be deceiued and a generall departing from the fayth was foreshewed and the Church to be driuen into the wildernesse What maruell were it if none of our Church could preach against it as it first entred As though the Scripture were not playne that not onely as he shall enter when the time of his Reuelation commeth but also euen during the whole time of his raigne there shall be open and stoute preaching against him ouer all the worlde with moste mightie working of true Miracles agaynst his lying wonders and moste constant resisting of him to bloud and to death though his tormentes and tormentors be neuer so horrible and Satanicall As I haue partly noted in the same 8. chapter pag. 124. to 130. All this you haue said to defend that our Religion might be false and of a later entraunce Ar. 36. although it were not gaynesaid at the first entring of it As for that which you say of preaching and writing agaynst the Popes authoritie when it first began it is answered aboue cap. 9. pag. 157. Now on the other side that your Religion is not false though it were withstood by the true Pastors in Aerius Iouinianus c. this you say Pur. 413. They that defended that Heretikes should not be baptized were withstood by Cyprian and all the Bishops of Affrica who were in the vnitie of the Church yet were they not heretikes nor their opinion heresie Much forsooth to the purpose Were withstood you should haue added at their first arising and preaching But then you had marred your example your selfe For their opinion did not then first arise but came by lineall tradition from the Apostles And the contrary opinion of Agrippinus and his successor S. Cyprian did then first arise and was withstoode by Pope Stephanus c. who (a) Aug. de bap cont Don. li. 5. ca. 23. wrote and commaunded (b) Vincen. Lirin ca. 9. apud Cyp. epist 74. nihil nouandum nisi quod traditum est to make no innouation but keepe the Tradition And therfore it was an heresie and they that helde it obstinately as afterward the Donatistes and Luciferians were Heretikes and the (c) Eus li. 7. ca. 2.3.4 Niceph l. 6. ca. 7. Hier. coÌ„tra Lucif Bed l. octo quest q. 5. Aug. coÌ„tra Cresc li. 3. ca. 1.2.3 de Bap. li. 2. ca. 4. Ep. 48. Catholiks recanted it both in Africa in Phrygia though S. Cyprian him selfe peraduenture was martyred in the meane time But yet you haue in store one example about this rule to dorre vs withall and to shew that (d) Ar. 93. the Romish Church can well inough abide the true Religion of Christ to be damnably abused by wicked men not only without open or priuie reprehension but also with allowing Which is no worse theÌ„ you hold here of the true auncient Church which you cal your owne But your example out of Matthaeus Paris is cleane agaynst your selfe For it sheweth manifestly that neither those Friars preachers which attributed too much to Religion or life Monasticall nor those Parisian Doctors which detracted too muche from it lacked their reprehenders among the Catholikes as they were all vntill some of the Doctors afterwards proued obstinat heretiks And that
body before the generall Resurrection If that be so manifest what els was it then but the rest of his soule that Martha would haue Christ to pray for when she saide thus vnto him But also now I know that whatsoeuer things thou shalt aske of God God will graunt thee To whiche purpose also some auncient writers expound that place But to alleage places is not my intent here it is onely to answere your allegations And now hauing done with all your negatiues we are come to your affirmatiues ij Ab authoritate Scripturae affirmatiue First about certayne foundations of Purgatory and prayer for the dead For breuitie to speake ioyntly of Purgatory and of relieuing the soules that be there your affirmatiue allegations against both are leuied by you partly at the foundation of them partly at the two them selues And the foundations béeing diuerse you haue both seuerall shot agaynst the seuerals and also one common shot against all or many of them in common To eche sorte I shall with the helpe of God whose cause it is make answere most easily and most truely The distinction of Veniall and Mortall sinne And first D. Allen declareth out of the Doctors Pur. 126.127.128 what sinnes may be purged in Purgatory to wit not onely such as are Veniall of their owne nature but also suche as are mortall of their owne nature so that they were in Gods Church remitted afore Fulke sayth that This is manifestly ouerthrowen by the worde of God euen from the foundations For the foundation of this doctrine is the distinction of veniall and mortall sinnes Not so syr the doctrine is that mortall sinnes by the Churches remission become as veniall and you graunt it your self saying All sinnes except certayne of which your good exceptions I shall say more anone by Gods mercy are pardonable or veniall Thus you graunt the doctrine and yet you graunt not the foresaid distinction therfore the distinction is not the foundation of that doctrine but the doctrine may stand well without it But yet for other causes we must be content to sée what you alleage against the distinction The worde of God playnely determineth that euery sinne is mortall deserueth eternall death seeme it neuer so small So you say and you alleage thrée places for it The first Cursed is euery one that abideth not in all thinges that are written in the Lawe to fulfill them Deut. 27. I syr but find you in the Scripture no other Curse that is to say payne for sinne but eternall death Is it not written Cursed is euery one that hangeth on tree yet hāging on trée or crucifying Deut. 21. Gal. 3. is not eternall death Agayne euery one in that saying is meant by the Apostles exposition not of Christians but of them onely whiche trust in the lawe for it selfe who in déede can neuer attayne to no remission neither of their mortall nor of their veniall sinnes But we that holde of Christ and of his spirite are in case alwayes to receiue remission whensoeuer we sinne venially 1. Ioan. 1.3 for so we can But we can not sinne mortally holding I say Christ and his spirite And therefore if we do sinne mortally at any time depriuing our selues thereby of Christes spirite the remedie is to séeke for the same agayne by the Sacrament of penaunce and then are we in good case agayne as before Your other two places are these The soule that sinneth shall dye Ezech. 18. and The rewarde of sinne is death Rom. 6. S. Iames giueth vs the meaning of these suche like places where he saith Peccatum verò cum consummatum fuerit generat mortem Iac. 1. Sinne when it is consummate gendreth death But not so soone as it is gendred and yet it is sinne as soone as it is gendred Therefore some sinne there is which yet gendreth not death Marke the order Deinde concupiscentia cum conceperit parit peccatum peccatum verò cum consummatū fuerit generat mortem First commeth the temptation of our concupiscence as it were of a lewde woman Secondly concupiscence when she hath conceiued by obteining some light consent beareth sinne venial sinne Mary thirdly Sinne when it is consummate by our full and perfect consent yéelded vnto it gendreth or bringeth foorth death if the matter be of weight accordingly For els that the lightnes of the matter as an idle worde bringeth not death he sufficiently signifieth in saying that in a weightie matter the lightnes or imperfection of consent doth it not Whether after sinne remitted payne may remayne Now to another foundation to wit That culpa the fault both in Venial and in Mortal sinne may be forgiuen of God and of his Church and yet some payne though not eternall be owing for it sometime so that the same must in such case be in this life eyther payde or pardoned or els in Purgatory it wil be exacted Pur. 45. This is against Ezechiel saith Fulke What time soeuer a man doth truely repent the Lord doth put al his sinnes out of his remembraunce You might haue done well to quote the place where Ezechiel so saith ad verbum The trueth is that in a moment the repentaunce may be so great that there is no more remembraunce at all But Ezechiel if you meane the 18. Chapter speaketh of a longer time so that The wicked man must repent him of all his sinnes and keepe all Gods commaundementes and do right and iustice and then vita viuit non morietur when the day commeth to rewarde euery one according to his workes here He shall liue not dye All his iniquities that he worked I will not remember saith God for his iustice that he wrought he shall liue For otherwise who knoweth not those voyces Psal 24.78 Lord remember not the sinnes of my youth and Lord remember not our old sinnes Are they not the words of men which had already repented them acknowledging neuerthelesse that God may yet remember them Againe you say It is against Dauid Pur. 45.46 Psal 102. The Lord hath remoued our sinnes from vs as farre as the east is from the west Who may not say this for béeing remoued frō eternall damnation although he haue yet to abide neuer so much temporall punishment Howbeit those words as the whole Psalme are not spokē of the time of our first receiuing againe into the fauour of God by absolution but to magnifie his mercy in our finall restitution which shal be at the later day For which cause the Church very aptly singeth that Psalme vpon the feast of Christes Ascention Also out of the New Testament you say The Publicane Pur. 43. the Prodigall childe the Debters all clearely remitted do playnely proue that God frely forgiueth iustifieth rewardeth the penitent sinners without exacting any punishment of them for answering of the debt satisfying for the sinnes abusing his fatherly clemēcie Luk. 7.15.18 You speake here very indefinitely as though God
Apoc. 3. And if you yet doubt by what they ouercome whether by the Lambes bloud alone or also by theyr owne patient confession or affliction vnto death it is written there agayne And they ouercame the diuell by the bloud of the Lambe and by their owne martirdome dia â—on logoâ—â—es martyriâ—s auâ—on and loued not their life euen vnto death Apoc. 12. And S. Paule accordingly calleth it 2. Cor. 4. the mortification of Iesus when the Apostles were mortified for Iesus and saith they carried the same about continually in their bodies that also the life of Iesus might be manifested in their selfe same bodies at the latter day which is the same thing that the Apocalipse calleth to appeare before the throne in white stoles Wherby you sée that as the bloud of Christ so by it martyrdome also worketh such glory For so it foloweth there again This our affliction although it is but short and light operatur worketh vs euerlasting weight of glory exceding measure aboue measure Because affliction here for Iesus doth so wash our stoles or bodies therefore it procureth that they shal be so glorious in the Resurrection this say these Scriptures And so much of the foundations and by occasion of them Now to Purgatorie it selfe and prayer for the dead Secondly directly of Purgatorie it selfe and praier for the dead whether all the elect goe straight to Heauen Afore Christes comming Limbus patrum Directly against Purgatory prayer for the dead you shoote diuers arrowes or rather cockshotles so deadly are the woundes that your shot doth make First you will proue by many and euident Scriptures that all the Elect do go yea and alwayes from the beginning of the world haue gone straight to heauen therefore neuer no Purgatory neuer no Limbus Patrum Whiche if you can do your skill in the Scripture no doubt farre passeth all the auncient Doctors were they neuer so wel studied therin For they all could not finde so muche as one text that all or any one also went to heauen before Christ yea and not many textes Vide Sander monar li. 7. pag. 518.520 Pur. 57. that any one after him also goeth thither before the generall Resurrection but rather very many textes that vntill the Church within these 300. yeres defined the contrarie made it very probable that none are there till then Well thus you begin That the Fathers of the Old law before Christ were not in hell it is to be proued with manifest argumentes and authorities out of holy Scriptures But first you thinke necessary to answere one text that stoode in your way saying Although they were not nor yet are in perfect blessednesse God prouiding a better thing for vs that they without vs should not be made perfect Heb. 11. By that they of the old Testament wer not made perfect or consummate without vs of the new Testament S. Paule there doth meane euidently that their Soules were not yet admitted into heauen As in that whole Epistle he sheweth that the Old Testament did consummate nothing but contrariwise Heb. 7. Heb. 10. Heb. 9. that it made continually euery yere a commemoration of their sinnes because they remayned still and were not perfectly remitted and therefore that Christe dyed In Redemptionem earum praeuaricationum quae erant sub priore Testamento To buye out the preuarications that were all that while that so at length the heires might attayne the euerlasting inheritance which was promised Heb. 9. Nondum enim propalatam esse Sanctorum viam adhuc priore tabernaculo habente statum For the way into Sancta or heauen was not yet opened vntill the high Priest Iesus entred first thereinto Heb. 10. qui initiauit nobis viam nouam It was he that beganne this newe waye vnto vs who nowe therefore haue fiduciam in introitu Sanctorum Confidence to enter in after him béeing our forerunner into the same Sancta And all this is spoken of our Soules As for our bodies neither yet is the way open vnlesse Sancta were open when onely the High priest entred into them This was the prouidence of God for vs that we should not thinke we come to late if the Fathers soules had beene admitted in before vs. Confer the end of your owne text with the beginning of it Heb. 11. vt non consummarentur and non acceperunt repromissionem Sée how plainly he expoundeth their not consummating to be their not attayning of the promise And what promise Heb. 9. Confer this other place vt repromissioneÌ„ accipiant aeternae haereditatis That the heires might attayne the promise of euerlasting inheritance I might at large declare the same by the whole course of Scripture as D. Allen saith very well but that I am not here to alleage Pur. 439. but only to answere Well then against these most manifest Scriptures let vs heare the manifest authorities of Scripture which you pretend Pur. 57.58 For you say Seeing they all beleeued in Christ they had euerlasting life and entred not into condemnation but passed from death to life Io. 5. To what life but the life or resurrection of their bodies for vntill the last day all the dead are in death but then some shall come forth into resurrection of life some others into resurrection of damnation but he that beleeueth in me hath that is most certainly shall then haue Iohn 11. life euerlasting and commeth not into damnation but passeth from death wherein he hath so long bene to life This is the playne text of that place As likewise in all the New Testament lightly euery where life after corporall death signifieth the resurrection of the bodies where the soules be in the meane time here is neuer a word no nor of the Saintes of the old Testament afore the institution of Baptisme wherevnto beliefe in him giueth now accesse Ioa. 1. and 3 that belieuing in him they may haue life Io. 20. But their state we must gather out of other places of holy Scripture And to what end againe you say was Christ called the Lamb that was slayne from the beginning of the world but that the benefite of his passion extendeth vnto the godly of all ages alike This is your expounding of Scripture by Scripture you are a true man of your word The place is Apo. 13. Whose names were not written in the booke of life of the Lambes that was slaine froÌ„ the beginning of the world CoÌ„ferring it with this place Apo. 17. Whose names were not written in the booke of life from the beginning of the world you perceiue the error of your coÌ„struction It is not said that the Lambe was slayne from the beginning of the world but that all the reprobate shall adore Antichrist when he commeth as the Gospell also saith Mat. 24. that the Elect also should be then deceiued if it were possible Neuerthelesse that the Lambe was slayne from the beginning of the world is true though not in your fond
who expoundeth it of Martyrs which is there saide Blessed are the dead that dye in our Lord now after that the spirite saieth that they shall rest from their labours You reply saying that D. Allen vnderstanding it onely of Martyrs Aug. ca. 9. li. 20. de Ci. calleth Augustine to witnesse thereof but that it is spoken of all the faithfull and therefore ouerthroweth Purgatorie witnesse hereof I will not take of flesh and bloud say you sée what he maketh of S. Augustine but of the holy Ghost Rom. 14. wee all dye vnto the Lorde Your skill in the Scripture is great that make it all one to dye in the Lorde and to dye to the Lorde All that dye to the Lorde haue as the Apostle there sayth to make their accompt◠to him which may and will to some fall out to their damnation but blessed are al they that dye in the Lord. Wherefore these two are not all one True it is that all whiche dye well and in the Churches peace dye in our Lord as they are called also dormientes in Christo 1. Cor. 15. and mortui in Christo 1. Thes 14. they that slepe in Christ the dead in Christ wheresoeuer their Soules be after that sléeping and dying in heauen or in purgatorie But yet the place Apoc. 14. is verie well sayd of D. Allen to be spoken not of all that so dye but onely of martirs neither of al martirs but of them onely that shall suffer in the time and rage of Antichrist for so the circumstance of the letter playnlye geueth You therfore that wil haue one place always conferred with another consider the circumstance sée what goeth afore what commeth after and you shall finde that he speaketh of the last time exhorting the faithfull then not for any feare to adore the beast but to dye constantly in our Lorde for now the Resurrection is euen at hand and therefore their labours all at an end Feare the Lord saieth one Angel preaching to all the world at that time and geue honour to him because the very houre of his Iudgement is come and adore him adore not Antichrist And another Angell foloweth saying Cecidit cecidit downe downe is fallen Babilon And another Angell If any adore the beast he shal be tormented in fire and brimstone for euer and euer Then a voyce from heauen Blessed are the dead that will not adore the beast but dye in the Lord. Now after this the Spirite sayth that they shall rest from their labours For their workes that is their rewarde do folow them now at hand And immediatly there after commeth forth the Iudge vpon a white cloude and the Siethes and downe goeth al the world Lo this is the circumstance Wherby you sée the place saith not so much as those Martyrs to be at rest so soone as they dye but onely within a very short time after This is the place that quite ouerthroweth Purgatory And so I haue examined all that you alleage for going straight to heauen Another way you procéede against Purgatory and prayer for the dead by the Iudgement which is after this life Whether the Iudgement may stand with Purgatory The tree whether it fall to the South or the North Pur. 436.439.441 it lieth euer where it lighteth Eccl. 11. Your cōmentary vpon this place is that the fall of the tree to the south or to the north is the iudgement of God concerning euery man either of rewarde or of punishment which can not be altered after a mans death and therefore by this place prayers be not profitable Why who saith that prayers shall so alter their iudgement Some be iudged to heauen but differred as they in Limbo at the very same time when this was written and others not so good both then and nowe in Purgatory To bring these to heauen wherevnto they be so iudged prayers do serue And this differring is signified by the Wiseman euen in the same place quia post tempora multa inuenies illum He exhorteth them to doe almesdéedes and all other good workes that they can because a great while after thou shalt finde it The trée that fell in the South it may be a good while after before he be all trimmed For not the soule onely but also the body falleth to be rewarded or punished And who séeth not how long after the fall it is before the body haue accordingly Only before his fall let euery one looke to his workes for after the fall Luc. 16. he shal find Chaos magnum a huge distance betwene the north and the south and therefore no possibilitie of remouing from the one to the other This is the sense of that place as D. Allen told you before and your reply against it is tootoo friuolous For you say that then they should alwayes lye in Purgatorie because the certeintie of their saluation is as great before they were borne as after they be dead Certaintie of their saluation that by him the Wiseman speaketh of riseth after their dying in grace of the vnalterable iudgement that by your self the Wiseman speaketh of and it is the impossibility of remouing to the north or to damnation What maketh this against remouing out of Purgatory into heauē which is not remouing out of the south into the north but onely further into the south euen into the finall place that straight after his fall both his soule and body were iudged vnto You argue againe of the Iudgement saying Pur. 281. Immediatly after death foloweth Iudgement but prayers either neede not or boote not when the party is eyther acquited or condemned by the sentence of the Iudge which as S. Augustine saith can not be indifferent betwene reward and punishment De lib. arb li. 3. cap. 23. S. Augustine saith there the contrarie rather as you shall sée if you reade the place And to your argument I say In that iudgement some be condemned to hell for whom prayers boote not Others be acquited from hel and of these some straight rewarded in their soules and so prayers néede not but not yet rewarded in their bodies and for that therfore they pray Apoc. 6. vntill they be heard Apoc. 11. Others not straight rewarded neither in their soules And of these againe some without poena sensus punishment of sense only differred as they in Limbo who prayed accordingly no lesse then the foresaid for the redemption of their bodies Others first to be punished temporally according to their debtes Mat. 5. to wit for being angry or saying Raca and them to be not onely let out of their prison because it is not Gehenna ignis for they said not Fatue but also rewarded for their merites And for these againe while they be in prison prayers as they néede so also they boote because the Iudge is mercifull And so you sée no lesse then thrée sortes which your diuision lacketh Pur. 436.444 And therby at once is answered your other obiectiō of the
hence there is now no place of penance no effect of satisfaction Here life is either lost or saued Here euerlasting saluation is procured by the worshipping of one God and by the fruitfulnes of faith This forsooth is that which can not stande with the Papists opinion of Purgatory By this forsooth appereth what Cyprians iudgement was of Purgatory and the effect of satisfaction after this life And againe because exhorting there Demetrianus him selfe Proconsul of Africa to repeÌ„tance which had bene so you say deceitfully Chaunging as though he now were conuerted for that you should haue said which presently was a wicked man and a persecutor of the Christians he saith to him Tu sub ipso licet exitu vitae temporalis occasu c. Do thou although it be but a litle before thy end and setting of this temporall life pray for thy sinnes to the God which is the one and true God Confessionem fidem agnitionis eius implores Do thou humbly call for confession and faith of acknowledging him he alludeth to the ceremonie quid petis Fidem Venia coÌ„fitenti datur credenti indulgentia salutaris de diuina pietate conceditur Pardon is giuen to him that confesseth and healthfull forgiuenes is graunted by Gods goodnes to him that beleeueth Et ad immortalitatem sub ipsa morte transitur and euen at the poynt of death is passage to immortalitie Because Christ doth quicken him that is mortall by the heauenly regeneration viuificat mortalem regeneratione coelesti This which is so expresly written of the Infidels in hell and of Baptisme to pretend it as you do to be written of the faithfull in Purgatory and of penance after Baptisme argueth playnly that either you sawe not the place in S. Cyprian or rather that séeing you would not sée Of the same sort it is that Pur. 82. Cyp. de Lapsis where S. Cyprian speaketh of Deniers of Christ in persecution which would not afterward come to the Priestes to confession and saith Euery one I beseeche you brethren confesse his sinne whilest yet he that sinned is in this world whilest his confession may be receiued whilest satisfaction and remission facta per Sacerdotes made by the authoritie of the Priestes is acceptable with our Lord you gather therevpon and say If men can not satisfie nor Priest remit but whilest men are in this life then farewell satisfaction for the dead and Purgatory As though we hold that they which will not submit them selues to the Priestes in this life may be holpen after their death Or that confession may be made by the dead and satisfaction enioyned them and that béeing done absolution giuen them by the Priestes Againe it is of the same sorte which you alleage out of S. Chrysostome where first you confesse that he holdeth expresly Pur. 2â—1 prayers to profite the dead and alleageth Scripture for it your words I recited in cap. 3. and that notwithstanding say afterward Otherwise when he iudged vprightly according to the Scripture his words sounde cleane contrarie to the opinion of Purgatory and works of other men to be meritorious for the dead as in the very next Homily being the 42. in 1. Cor. Quapropter oro c. What a worthy S. Chrysostome was euery kinde of way I néede not to saye I can admire him I am not able to commend him sufficiently But what a base opinion haue you of him as also of so many others his peares to think him so grosse Caluins intolerable light hath marred Fulkes eyes to speake cleane contrarie to him selfe and that vpon one Epistle yea in the very next Homily You do herein nothing els but iustifie my saying in the beginning of this chapter that you can not in déede shew the Doctors to be for you against vs but that in déede you coÌ„fesse them to be with vs against you and pretend onely that they be agaynst vs in so much as they be pretensiuely against them selues But why did you not aswell say that D. Allen him selfe is against vs in that in the seuenth chapter of his second booke he sheweth Pur. 271. That the benefite of prayer almes apperteineth not to such as dye in mortall sinne For what els doth S. Chrysostome say in that long allegation of yours but that no friend no iust shall helpe him that dyeth in mortal sinne either committing euill that he ought to refrayne or omitting good that he ought to atchieue beséeching them therefore to conuert and amend and to get agaynst they dye good words of their owne to trust in before that Iudge Pur. 112. Ambro. in Psal 40. Likewise of S. Ambrose you confessed cap. 3. pag. 16. Ambrose in deede alloweth prayer for the dead And yet because he saith Bene addidit in terra quia nisi hic mundatus fuerit ibi mundus esse non poterit The Prophet did well to adde on earth for if he be not clensed here he can not be clensed from his mortall sinnes But the true translation is he can not be cleane there neither from his veniall sinnes though from them he maye be clensed there as also from the temporall debte of his remitted mortall sinnes yet I saye by these words it is playne inough with you that Ambrose allowed no purging after this life One place more or two you alleage more out of the same Doctor Pur. 106. with this note therevpon Thus saith Ambrose playnely in this place whatsoeuer he speaketh allegorically of the Fyerie sworde in other places as in Psal 118. Ser. 20. and in Psal 65. by occasion of which two places you graunt not long after that the Old writers opinion was Pur. 132. that all men were they neuer so iust passed through that fire into Paradise and were purified thereby because they ascribed to Purgatory fire those two operations the one whereof S. Augustine we as I said erewhile do doubt of All this notwithstanding the same Ambrose you say vpon Rom. 5. ouerthroweth Purgatorie in that it followeth of his words there Pur. 105. that no man feeleth paine after this life but he that shal feele it eternally And surely to the same effect he speaketh in his booke De bono mortis you say onely because cap. 4. where he concludeth that death in euery respect is good yea although a man haue liued yll and shall after death abye for it for also in that case non mors malum sed vita Not his death but his life was euill among others this cause he rendreth quia deteriorem statum non efficit sed qualem in singulis inuenerit talem iudicio futoro reseruat because it maketh not the yll state worse but such state as it findeth in euery one suche it reserueth to the iudgement to come Now who saith that Purgatory after death altereth the state of the euill to worse yea or also that it promoteth the state of the good to better