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A07698 A dyaloge of syr Thomas More knyghte: one of the counsayll of oure souerayne lorde the kyng [and] chauncellour of hys duchy of Lancaster. Wherin be treated dyuers maters, as of the veneration [and] worshyp of ymages [and] relyques, prayng to sayntys, [and] goyng o[n] pylgrymage. Wyth many othere thyngys touching the pestylent sect of Luther and Tyndale, by the tone bygone in Sarony, and by tother laboryed to be brought in to Englond; Dyaloge of dyvers maters More, Thomas, Sir, Saint, 1478-1535. 1529 (1529) STC 18084; ESTC S104969 282,100 256

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his syn wold for ꝑte of hys penaunce wyllyngly offer hym self to the sufferaūce of open shame ther were no good cristen mā that wold after that lyke the man that wors but a grete deale the better And yf all suche opē cōfessyō were synne there was mych syn vsed amōg good folke many day in Crystꝭ chirch whā yt was mich better thā yt is now Lo Achā that had cōmytted sacrylege wherof ys wryten in Iosue was exorted by Iosue to cōfesse hys faute opēly gyue glory to god that had detected him by lottis And so dyd he and mekely suffered for hys syn as well the shame wōder of the worlde as the payn ād bytternes of deth And therfore I no more dout of that the●e but that he is a glorioꝰ saint in heuen thā I dout of that these the cryst promysed Paradyse hangynge on the crosse And ●urely yf mēnys old fautys were styll theyr īfamy after theyr amēdemēt thā was saynt Peter lytell beholdē to saīt Mathew other of hys felows that haue slaūdred hym in theyr gospels tellyng how shāfully after all hys crakꝭ he forsoke his mayster forsware hī both yf a good man ware naght the bet● he was the more synne it is the more shame also And ys yt not thā ī resō ō the tother syde yf a naughty mā wax good the worse he was the better is for hī the more worship also Our lord sayth hī self that for one sīner comīg again to grace ther is more ioy ī heue than vppō almost an hūdred good folk that neuer sinned And rekē we then that man shamed by the knolege of his ●yn here amōg synfull mē whose hūble cōfessiō me●e amēdemēt wīneth him so mych worship in heuē Trust me truly whā a mā hath done euyll if he be duly sworē it is a worshipfull shāe a ioyfull sorow to cōfesse the treuth and good folke though they abhore the sī yet loue thei cōmed the mā as one that was noght ys good And the shame that he cōceyueth ī hys harte afore the worlde geteth hym grete honour afore god the shorte glowīg here in his chekis spedely burneth vp wasteth that neuer wastyng fyre of hell standyng hym ferther in stede of grete ꝑte of his purgatory And therfore to the poynt that we speke of wtout longe ꝓcesse I tell you playnly my mynde that no man can be excused from the ꝑell of ēdlesse dānaciō that wold vpō boldnes of eny doctors opynyō hyde or couer hys faute by eny cautell after a lawfull oth gyuē him to tell the playn trothe therin And who so wyll say the cōtrary he must nedys hold playn agaynst the law say that no iuge may lawfully gyue an othe to the ꝑty wherof shuld the othe serue yf the party myght lefully forswere hym self And also yf the iudge may not lawfully giue hym y● o the thā may he refuse to swere may not first swere thā say false whych euery man must vppō dāpnacyō eschew though he folily take an othe where he lawfully myght refuse yt ¶ Forsothe quod he me thynketh ye take the sure way ¶ well q I yf this be so in one that is sworē where the mater as he thinkyth cā not be well ꝓued how farre wronge went the man that we speke of to forswere hym selfe in a mater of prechyng that he wyll well was so opē that it wold be playnly ꝓued what synne was therin what synne foly thereto was there to stycke styll in hys ꝑiury whā he saw the mater a●lredy proued so clerely by so many so good so honest so indefferent that he coulde nothing now wyn by the dē●●e●● but euyll opyniō almost a dispayre of his amēdemēt in all that euer hatd hī ¶ In good fayth q he all this is very truthe ther for we shall let him a lone tyll god send hym better mynde The .viii. chapyter ¶ The author shewethe why the new testamēt of Tyndals trāslacyō was burned she with for a sample certaī wordꝭ euill of euyll purpos chāgid BUt now I pray you let me kno your mynd cōcernyng the burnīg of the new testamēt ī ēglish which Tindal lately trāslated as mē say right wel whiche makethe mē mich meruayl of the burnīg ¶ It is q I to me gret meruayl that eny good cristē mā hauīg eny drop of wyt ī hys hed wold eny thīg meruell or cōplayn of ye●urnīg of the boke if he knowe the mater which who so callith the new testamēt calleth it by a wrōg name except they wyl call yt Tyndals testament or Luthers testamēt For so had tyndall after Luthers coūsayle corrupted chaūged yt frō the good holsō doctryne of Criste to the deuylysh heresyes of theyr own that it was clene a cōtrary thing ¶ That were maruayle q your frend that it shuld be so clene cōtraty For to som that red it yt semed very lyke ¶ It ys q I neuer the lesse cōtrary yet the more peryll●ꝰ For like as to a trew siluer grote a fals coꝑ grote is neuer the lesse cōtrary thogh yt be quyk syluered ouer but so mych the more false show mich it is coūterfeted the more lyke to the trouth so was the trāslaciō so mich the more cōtrary ī how mich it was cra●cely deuysed like so mych the more peryllus ī how miche it was to folke vnlernyd more hard to be dyssernid ¶ why q your frēd what fautꝭ wer ther syt To tell you all the q I were in a maner to reherse you all the hole hoke wherin ther were founden and noted wrong fa●●ly trāslated aboue a thousand textꝭ by tale ¶ I wolde q he fayn here some one ¶ He that shuld q I study for that shuld study where to finde water in the see But I wyll shewe you for ensample two or thre suche as euery one of the thre ys more than thryes thre in one ¶ That were q he very straunge except ye mene more ī weyght For one cā be but one in nōber ¶ Surely q I as weyghty be they as eny lyghtly can be But I mene the euery one of them is more thā thryes thre in nōber ¶ That were q he sūwhat lyke a rydel ¶ This rydell q I wyl sone be red For he hath mystrāslated .iii. wordꝭ of gret weyght euery ōe of thē is as I suppose more than thryes three tymes repeted and rehersed in the boke ¶ Ah that may well be q he but that was not well done But I pray you what wordꝭ be they ¶ The tone ys q I this word prestys The to ther the chyrch The thyrd charyte For prestis wher so euer he speketh of the pstꝭ of Crystis chirch he neuer calleth them prestes but alway seuyours the chyrch he calleth alway the congregacyō and charyte he callyth all 〈◊〉 loue Now do these namꝭ in our englysh
a false fayth And therfore myghte yt yet stande ryghte well wyth all those wordys of saynt Powle that faythe can not fayle of saluacyon syth yt can not fayll of charyte And of trouth m● semeth as that man sayd that fayt● can not be ydle but yt must nedys worke well ¶ Forsoth quod I the mā lacked you there for he founde not that glose Whych though he had yet wold yt not haue serued hym For bytwene those two placys of saynt Powle y● there grete dyfference For in the t●n● ys there an impossyble excesse and yperbole in the tother is there not so For aūgels of heuen neuer can come down and teche a false fayth But fayth may be s●uered from charyte And in y● tone place he none other thynge entended than as ye saye to shewe by that great excedynge word the vndowted trouth of the fayth whyche hym self had preched But in the tother place hys specy●ll purpose was to teche the Galath●●s that they sholde neyther trust y● eny gyft of nature or gyft of god aboue nature or eny maner vertue alm●yse dede fayth or other were able to stande them in ●●●de wytho●t cheryte And thys dyd he specyally for that he wold that no man shold be in suche errour as to reken that eyther excellēt gyfte of eunnynge great labour spent in prechyng great almoyse spent● on pore people or a very feruent fayth myght suffyse to theyr saluacyō yf cheryte lakked Agaynst whych errour he doth in such wyse exhorte theym to cheryte in avoydyng the rankour which by occasyon of scysmes dyd aryse amōg th●● that ●e shewed theym precysely y● wythout cheryte they loste clerely the meryte of all theyr other vertues and gracys y● god had geuē theym cūnyng almoyse dede fayth and all puttyng thexample by hys owne selfe whyche though he were a chosen seruaunt and apostle yet y● he were ī langage egall wythall y● hole world and with angellys to and had all y● cūnyng that possyble could be had and the spirite of all prophecye therwyth wold geue all hys goodys in almoyse and had also all the full fayth so grete that yt su●●yced to worke wundres wyth and so feruent that he wold abyde to be burned for yt yet yf he laked cheryte all thys wolde not serue hym So that ye may se now that your glose wold not haue releued this mā For though none angell could come downe and teche an vntrouth therfore the wordys that ye alledge can be none otherwyse takē than as ye say by way of exce●●● and yperbole to declare the vehemence of hys mynde in the mater of fayth which he than spake of yet this other place of saynt poule that was layed agaynst that heretyque that I speke of as grete and vehement as the wordys be yet do they playnely proue that the apostle sheweth y● fayth may be wythout cheryte that doth so grete that yt may suffyse to y● doyng of grete wonders and so feruent that yt may suffre a paynful deth and yet for f●wte of charyte not suffycyēt to s●●●●cyon and that this may happe as wel in fayth as in almoyse dede whyche y● appostle putteth in the same case And therfore where that man sayde and ye seme to conferme the same that fayth can not be ydle frō y● workyng of good workys the appostle to shew the contrary and that all y● workys of faythe though they seme neuer so good be yet nought in dede yf they be not wrought with charite cōmēdith only the faith that workyth by charyte sygnyfyēg that all other workꝭ of fayth be not auaylable And surely faythe alone wythowt charyte may be bysydys thys not only ydle with oute the busynes of good workys but also for lacke of good workys yt may be vtterly dede And therfore as it was there obiected vnto that man y● holy appostle Iames sayth to theym that teken fayth suffycyēt for saluacyō wyth oute good workys that they be worse thā deuyls For he sayth that y● deuyls do byleue tremble for y● fere of god And y● men whych by the hope boldnesse of theyr byleue thynke theyr fayth wtout good workꝭ suffycyent be worse than deuyls bycawse they stande owt of drede of god that mana●●eth vnto thē the paynes of hell except they do good workys Wythout whyche saynt Iamys for a fynall conclusyon sayth that the fayth ys but dede ¶ After suche resonyng the man sayd that he and thother Lutheranys whā they spake that only fayth was suffycyent they meane not of a dede fayth that ys wythoute charyte and good workys but a very fayth that ys quycke worketh by charyte and that such faythe he thought was suffycyēt ¶ But than was yt answered that neyther they nor he coulde meane so For how could they call that thynge fayth onely that ys ioyned with charyte and good workys Or howe can yt stande that they meane that faythe whyche by charyte worketh good workys wh●n they say that yt ys suffycyent alone wythoute good workys and that yt ys as Luther sayth grete synne and sacrylege to to go about to please god by good workys and not by only fayth How coud they say that onely fayth suffyseth yf they shold meane that wythout charyte and good workys no fayth suffyseth For yt were a mad thynge to saye that faythe alone suffyseth wythoute good workys therw t to say y● with out good workys fayth suffyseth nothyng And so was yt sayd vnto hym that therfore though they colour theyr maters whā they be examyned yet it can not be but that he and other Lutheranys where they sowe theyr heresye meane playnly as they speke y● folke nede no more but byleue and than how so euer they lyue shal make no mater For no thing as Luther saythe can dampne a crysten man saue onely lacke of byleue● For all other synnys yf byleue and fayth stand fast be quyte absorpte and supped vp he sayth in that fayth ¶ Whan thys man was wyth such resonyng and myche better than I do or can reherse you somwhat sore preced vppon than brought he forth a nother glose and sayd that they meaned not but that fayth yf yt shold suffyse for saluacyon must nedys haue wyth yt charyte and good workꝭ or ellys yt were no very fayth as a dede man ys no very man How be it he sayd that though yt be no thyng wythout good workꝭ yet whan yt ys ioyned wyth good workys all the meryt cometh of our fayth onely and no part therof for our workys So that god gyueth vs heue● for our fayth onely and nothynge for ou● workys For though he gyue it not for our faythe yf we lacke good workys yet yf we haue both he regardeth not in hys rewarde our workys eny thyng but onely our fayth And he sayde that for thys cause they say that only fayth causeth our saluacyon ¶ To thys yt was answered that yf thys opynion were true yet yt well